question for reloaders re: 45-70
Al
especially if one hand-loads.
One thing I'd like to know: would it be possible to cut this case down
to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power? It
would also let you fit more in the magazine.
Al
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G Gibbs
"Al" <AT_Ta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aobtl9$dal$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Looking at a .45-70 lever action and it seems to be a versatile gun
# especially if one hand-loads.
#
# One thing I'd like to know: would it be possible to cut this case down
# to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power? It
# would also let you fit more in the magazine.
#
#
# Al
That's a good question, Al. I've reloaded a Marlin 45-70 for years and
they truly are versatile; everything from shot loads and single round ball
loads to 500 gr. kill-anything-on-the-continent loads.
Really I have my doubts that a shorter case would function through the
rifle, but I'm sure openminded enough to try it when time permits.
Greg
Greylock
You might find yourself with a cartridge that will not feed because of the
changed geometry.
Also firing the shortened case a lot might create problems in going back to
the longer case.
I suggest just using reduced loads in the full-sized cartridge.
"Al" <AT_Ta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aobtl9$dal$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Clark Magnuson
1) SQUIRRELS:
I have shot quite a few .457" soft lead balls from a 45/70 Handi rifle.
I was doing it for quiet.
[URL=http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html]http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html[/URL]
I would add to that faq that the expansion ratio is the key to max power
and staying quiet.
I get my best results from chamfering the 45/70 case mouth on the inside
until sharp.
Charge with .5 gr Bullseye or Red Dot.
Put .1" thick polypropylene 28 ga or larger wad over the case mouth.
Cover the case mouth with a board.
Raise the press ram until the case cookie cutters the wad.
Do it again to another wad.
With a rod, pound the wads down on top of the powder.
Put the .457" ball over the wads and push all the way down into the case
until sitting on the wads.
The ball will bounce off wood if seated at the case mouth, but seated
down inside per above, it will go through 1/2" of wood and make the
exact pellet gun like report as when seated at the mouth.
Power is not proportional to noise if the expansion ratio changes. Peak
pressure IS higher, but not a problem.
Accuracy is not very good with the ball going so fast when it reaches
the rifling, but good enough for most tasks.
2) ELEPHANTS:
I had calculated that the Handi rifle could take more than the brass,
but then NEF /H&R came out with a statement it was only good for Win
1886 pressures [as opposed to Ruger #1 loads are the highest book
loads]. Someone said that my calculations did not mean anything because
I have no credentials. So I felt compelled to produce some data.
45/70 work up with; 405 gr cast with lube bands, CCI 200 primers, Win
brass, old Unique [dirty] powder, chamber well lubricated between
firings with CLP for max bolt thrust.
Quickload calculation of pressure and velocity with 405 gr, Unique
shot 0) 15 gr, 24,700 psi, 1271 fps, no shot fired, listed for Quickload
reference point only
shot 1) 18 gr, 33,217psi, 1403 fps, primer looks fine.
shot 2) 20 gr, 39,435 psi, 1485 fps, primer is fine
shot 3) 22 gr, 46,133 psi, 1563 fps, primer looks flat.
shot 4) 24 gr, 53,334 psi, 1637 fps, primer is flat.
shot 5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing,
action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 6) 28 gr, 69,366 psi, 1778 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, case
head expansion .001", action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 7) 30 gr, 78275 psi, 1846 fsp, case head expansion .0015" action
popped open and case ejected on firing, some leading in the muzzle.
shot 8) 32 gr, 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case
head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor,
action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on
firing, primer is spreading out .010"
Picture of the case heads:
http://glocktalk.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=990876
There was no change in headspace, but I had to stop the work up because
of case head separation where the case head flowed into the extractor.
Velocity can be increased by substituting a slower powder [like W296]
with the same max pressure. This will yield 2400 fps with 405 gr is
equal to the 458 Win mag [well known elephant gun].
Reference loads:
1) "Loads for the 45/70" from the H.P.White laboratory via "American
Rifleman" 1950~1968 via "NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 says:
405 gr Rem S.P., 17.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 25,240 pounds pressure, for
1886 Win
2) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
400 gr cast, 16.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 27,000 cup, for 1886 Win
3) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
385 cast gr cast, 17.5 gr Unique, 1411 fps, 38,500 cup, for Ruger #1
Steve Kirby
# Looking at a .45-70 lever action and it seems to be a versatile gun
# especially if one hand-loads.
That it is.
# One thing I'd like to know: would it be possible to cut this case down
# to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power?
Probably a very bad idea. Assuming this wouldn't weaken the brass to a
point where it would be dangerous to use (I'd have to think about that one
for a minute), you'd run into all kinds of problems getting the shortened
version to feed from the magazine. Lever action rifles are pretty
sensitive to changes in cartridge overall length (COL). In order to
accommodate even one additional round in the magazine, you'd need to reduce
the length of each cartidge by over half an inch.
Fortunately, it's pretty easy to work up a light load for the 45-70. My
personal favorite is 15 grains of Unique behind a 300 grain cast lead
bullet. Alliant lists this load in the Cowboy Action Shooting section of
their interactive reloading guide at
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com
draperw
ever owned. Extremely accurate. It is ok to use reduced loads but
shortened cases run the risk of harming the chamber in the exposed
area. I have read of folks using this on squirrels with unique powder
behind a round ball. However, dont shorten the cases.
bill
Al wrote:
> ...
Frank Kleinburg
# especially if one hand-loads.
# One thing I'd like to know: would it be possible to cut this case down
# to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power? It
# would also let you fit more in the magazine.
Several folks I know have come up with light loads using Bullseye powder,
but
I wouldn't do it myself.. Also cutting the cases down will most likely
introduce
you to feed problems in lever actions..
Why not just get a Marlin 1894 Cowboy in 45 Colt.. While not a 45-70 they
can be loaded to pack a punch, as well as down to around 600 fps with 250gr
lead bullets..
flk k
Scorpius44
down to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power?>>
S'pose it could be done but you'd be likely to encounter some feed problems
with the shorter rounds. Also, shooting any quantity of shortened cases in a
full-length chamber just might result in some premature chamber/throat erosion.
On the other hand, there's all kinds of load data out there for reduced power
(smokeless) loads for the old blackpowder Springfield Trapdoors and Remington
Rolling Blocks. You could start with one of those loads and work it down to an
ultra-mild "plinker" load. (Lately, I've been shooting an original 1871
Remington RB and I've found that a smokeless equivalent of the old "Trapdoor"
carbine load...405 gr. cast bullet@1250 fps...to be a fine plinker round.)
If magazine capacity is a major consideration for you, maybe, you should just
get a .44 Mag. lever gun...either Marlin or Winchester...and shoot slightly
reduced loads in it.
One last thing, if you're looking at a Marlin 1895 in .45-70...which I assume
you probably are...be advised that Marlin's "Microgroove" rifling has a history
of severe barrel leading and mediocre (at best) accuracy with cast-bullet
loads.
Robert
Tim
> ...
Anything is possible, however, why not just load your 45-70 a little
lighter? I quit shooting .38 spl in .357 cuz I'm tired of trying to
clean all the crap outta the cylinder left behind by the shorter
cases. Handloading is a wonderful thing...
Tim sends
> ...
Wes Jones
Al <AT_Ta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aobtl9$dal$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Looking at a .45-70 lever action and it seems to be a versatile gun
# especially if one hand-loads.
#
# to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power? It
# would also let you fit more in the magazine.
I'd guess that the shorter rounds wouldn't work through the feed mechanisn
very well.
Best, wes
BillS
BillS
Al wrote:
> ...
G Gibbs
"Al" <AT_Ta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aobtl9$dal$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Looking at a .45-70 lever action and it seems to be a versatile gun
# especially if one hand-loads.
#
# to make a "light", short plinking load, like .44 special power? It
# would also let you fit more in the magazine.
#
#
# Al
Well....you did it Al...you ruined my evening. I came home from work,
much to do around the house, but began pondering this post and grabbed
eight 45-70 cases and went straight to the lathe. I cut them down from 2.10"
to the arbitrary length of 1.2". Damn, they look kinda cute.
I then chamfered the case mouths and re-sized the cases with the
intention of making dummy rounds with some Speer 400 gr. FN bullets but ran
into a problem getting bullet to stay in place in the case mouth while I
crimped them.They would drop on down into the case. I solved this problem by
starting the cases into a 45 ACP taper crimp die which slightly reduced the
diameter of the case mouth. I was then able to hand start the bullets into
the cases and push them into place, to the cannelure, and give them a good
taper crimp with the 45 ACP taper crimper which held the bullets firmly.
With the loaded round this length, my old '70's vintage Marlin 1895's
magazine would hold 7 rounds as opposed to 5 full length rounds. At first,
the first round out of the magazine didn't want to chamber as the carrier,
the piece that lifts the cartridge, seemed to jam. It would only chamber if
I turned the rifle upside down. Subsequent rounds seemed to feed OK, but
still sometimes it would "lock up"; the carrier wouldn't lift the
cartridges. Upon close examination I found a slight relief had been mill out
of the inside, left bottom side of the reciever. The long rounds are too
long to roll over into this relief, but the short ones would roll into it
and hang up on the upper lip of the relief. I discovered this problem was
very easily overcome by simply tilting the rifle to the right when
chambering a round. So, in short it looks like "functionally" it would work.
I suppose the cases could either be slightly shorter or slightly
longer, but I think shorter cases might increase feeding problems. Something
else that would need to be addressed is a crimping die. Maybe a 45 Colt die
might be used, I don't know. I may try to make one on the lathe.
Of course I would never presume to begin guessing load data for a
little case like this, but I can certainly see where it could have
applications with very light bullets such as round balls or "collar button"
type projectiles. I'll likely experiment with this myself at some later
time.
Al, I hope you don't mind the fact that I CC'ed a copy to you. I just
thought you might find it informative.
Greg
Clark Magnuson
#eight 45-70 cases and went straight to the lathe. I cut them down from 2.10"
# to the arbitrary length of 1.2". Damn, they look kinda cute.
# I then chamfered the case mouths and re-sized the cases with the
# intention of making dummy rounds with some Speer 400 gr. FN bullets but ran
# into a problem getting bullet to stay in place in the case mouth while I
# crimped them.They would drop on down into the case. I solved this problem by
# starting the cases into a 45 ACP taper crimp die which slightly reduced the
# diameter of the case mouth. I was then able to hand start the bullets into
# the cases and push them into place, to the cannelure, and give them a good
# taper crimp with the 45 ACP taper crimper which held the bullets firmly.
Try loading some .452" bullets in the full length 45/70 brass.
Then resize in the 45acp carbide sizing die as far as you can.
Then imagine making a chamber with:
1) a .500" reamer
2) a .469" reamer [.469" is what brass springs back to after .467" 45acp
carbide die]
3) a 45acp throater
The 45acp bullets kick less and cost less.
Then build the rifle with a slow twist .452" barrel.
It would be a .452/70 tight neck.
I have made a 45acp tight neck, and the concentricity makes for great
accuracy:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oddsandends/index.asp
I may do the .452/70 on a 91/30 action.
Or a .452-08 on another Mauser.
MTNMANN
1. If you fire shorter cartridges, say for example, a cartridge that is half
the length of the chamber, a lead bullet will upset to fill the diameter of the
chamber and then have to be forced down to the bore diameter at the throat.
This is not likely to be result in good accuracy.
2. You must load a cartridge above a minimum load so that the brass casing
expands to seal the chamber. If it doesn't, two things can occur: (a) The
gases will come out the back of the action. (b) The fire will go out and leave
unburnt powder in the bore. I had this experience using ball powder in a
45-70.
Why don't you just buy a Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum.
mtnmann