New old Schwinn Paramount
dnacr70
cool looking lugs, all Campagnolo Nuovo Record,
except for center pull mafac brakes, Regina Oro chain and freewheel, high
flange hubs, Mavic campionato del Mondo rims, unglued with dry rotted
clemente tires, Brooks saddle, Cinelli 64 bars, 1A stem. It came in its box,
with a tool kit. I think I will change a few things, like the saddle and the
center pulls and of course some fresh rubber and ride it on special rides
for kicks. My question is does it have any value? Im not selling it, but Im
curious. Thanks.
Bob Denton
wrote:
There are usually a range of Paramounts for sale on E-Bay. That will
give you some idea.
cu
Bob Denton
Gulf Stream International
Delray Beach, Florida
www.sinkthestink.com
Manufacturers of Sink the Stink
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think you have a great bike. We have a
great customer that collects these things so yes, to somebody, it is valuable.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
David L. Johnson
> I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount. 531 tubing, the
> real cool looking lugs, all Campagnolo Nuovo Record, except for center
> pull mafac brakes, Regina Oro chain and freewheel, high flange hubs,
> Mavic campionato del Mondo rims, unglued with dry rotted clemente tires,
> Brooks saddle, Cinelli 64 bars, 1A stem. It came in its box, with a tool
> kit.
Is it new-in-box? Wow, that would be a find. If so, don't change
anything.
> I think I will change a few things, like the saddle and the center
> pulls and of course some fresh rubber and ride it on special rides for
> kicks. My question is does it have any value? Im not selling it, but Im
> curious. Thanks.
Are you sure of the date? '73 is late for the center-pulls; by then
nearly every high-end bike had Campy brakes. I would suggest that the
date was 2-5 years earlier than that. I have a '70 Frejus that came with
almost identical components.
I'm sure there are collectors interested in a bike like this, especially
in new condition. Even if it has some miles on it, it sounds like it is
in its original state, which is good. How is the paint job? Rust?
Obviously, to ride it you need new tires, and that will not affect its
value. Shame the Clements are rotted; they are better than anything
available now, if they are silks.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |
bb...@nosphighstream.net
wrote:
>I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount. 531 tubing, the real
I don't know about the Schwinn Paramount, but will tell you I love an
old Schwinn Passage to bomb around town on, and for open stretches. I
like 27x1-1/4 120psi tires with it.
That being said, I agree you simply must dump that old Brooks saddle.
Dump it my way & I'll give you a few bucks and pay the postage!
Bruce Ball
Meccanico di Bici
What a cool old bike! As with many older bikes, the "value" is up to
you, or to what the collector market has established. In and of
itself, it could be said to be outdated, without modern amenities, not
easy to maintain or not as easy to use as a more modern road bike. On
the other hand, it's elegant and simple in it's design, reliable and
durable. But possibly to you or the right person, it could be so much
more, like their first good road bike, the machine that first gave
them freedom, a piece of cycling history, etc., etc.
Find an older saddle that you can live with, but leave the rest as is,
I believe the Mafacs brakes are "correct", as Campy was late getting
into the brake game and many bikes of this age that were primarily
Campy used Mafacs or other French brakes. Dig out some wool shorts and
a hairnet and enjoy the ride!
--Jim
Wantagofast
side pull of choice at the time was Universal 77s.
"Meccanico di Bici" <meccani...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:24d03f55.0301...@posting.google.com...
Dick Durbin
I don't believe that all of the equipment is original. I don't think
the Cinelli 1A stem wasn't introduced until after 1973 and didn't
Paramounts from that era come with Weinmann centerpulls? Those "cool
looking" lugs are Nervex.
Dick Durbin
Thomas Reynolds
Cool bike. As for the value, I have followed these things on Ebay.
There is not a lot of value, a few hundred dollars.
I have a Paramount tandem from the same era, in pristine condition.
My wife and I take it on local organized rides. Its nice to have
people comment on the classic old bike.
Tom
John Everett
wrote:
>I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount.
<snip>
> My question is does it have any value? Im not selling it, but Im
>curious. Thanks.
You might check with the ClassicRendezvous crowd. Also see the Schwinn
page at:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com./USA/schwinn_home.htm
There are some nice pictures of 1972 and 1973 Paramount frames there
with which you can compare yours.
jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3
David L. Johnson
> At that time Campy was just coming out with side pulls, perhaps 74. The
> side pull of choice at the time was Universal 77s.
Neither is true. Campy sidepulls actually came out in the late '60s, and
by '72 were standard equipment on most high-end bikes. They were costly,
though ($70 IIRC, which was a lot considering full elite bikes were maybe
$250-$300). Maybe some road bikes other than Peugeot did not have them,
but a full-Campy Paramount from '73 would.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Ebay.
There is not a lot of value, a few hundred dollars. >><BR><BR>
I have seen Colnago mags that the distributor use as packing material sell for
$20 on ebay. I would never use ebay as a reference for value...
dnacr70
"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <david....@lehigh.edu> wrote in
message news:av1ndb$d...@fidoii.CC.Lehigh.EDU...
Jay Beattie
> On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:32:51 -0500, Wantagofast wrote:
>
> > At that time Campy was just coming out with side pulls, perhaps 74.
The
> > side pull of choice at the time was Universal 77s.
>
> Neither is true. Campy sidepulls actually came out in the late '60s,
and
> by '72 were standard equipment on most high-end bikes. They were
costly,
> though ($70 IIRC, which was a lot considering full elite bikes were
maybe
> $250-$300). Maybe some road bikes other than Peugeot did not have
them,
> but a full-Campy Paramount from '73 would.
David, IIRC, Campy NR brakes were an option on certain models of the
Paramount up to the mid or late '70s. Schwinn made a laid-back model of
the Paramount which came with Weinmann CPs as standard equipment. It
was a fine bike, but not the full-Campy, racing version of the
Paramount. -- Jay Beattie.
TW406
the Cinelli 1A stem wasn't introduced until after 1973 and didn't
Paramounts from that era come with Weinmann centerpulls? Those "cool
looking" lugs are Nervex. >>
My 73 Paramount came with a Cinelli bar and stem. The Mafacs surprise me, but
may have been used originally if Weinmanns in short supply. I'd keep the Brooks
on it for sure.
Charlie Wilson
"David L. Johnson >" wrote:
> Are you sure of the date? '73 is late for the center-pulls; by then
> nearly every high-end bike had Campy brakes. I would suggest that the
> date was 2-5 years earlier than that. I have a '70 Frejus that came with
> almost identical components.
Campy sidepulls were available in 1973, but they were scarce, the shop I
worked in got $120 for a set. Most of the Paramounts we received (our shop
received more Paramounts in '73 than any other shop, said the Schwinn rep)
came with Universal centerpulls; I never saw one come from the factory with
Mafacs.
If the original poster can give us a color, I may be able to narrow it
pretty close to the year of manufacture. Maybe. There is a little bit of
overlap, and a "Cool blue" '72 can look a lot like an "Opaque blue" '74.
Charlie,
just another Paramount collector
A Muzi
news:Z7QQ9.528102$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
The rims are Mavic Montlhery, right?
The tubs are Clement Campionato del Mondo probably.
Dry rot in this case is a misnomer. You might do well to at least evaluate
those silk tubs before tossing them solely on age.
(If you're hellbent of disposing of them, I'll gladly take 'em!)
Weinmann Vainquer centerpulls would be original equipment, not the Mafac.
If it fits and rides well, it has value. For the resale price, see EBay.
And generally value is higher if it's all period-correct original spec.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
Dick Durbin
>
> > At that time Campy was just coming out with side pulls, perhaps 74. The
> > side pull of choice at the time was Universal 77s.
>
> Neither is true. Campy sidepulls actually came out in the late '60s, and
> by '72 were standard equipment on most high-end bikes. They were costly,
> though ($70 IIRC, which was a lot considering full elite bikes were maybe
> $250-$300). Maybe some road bikes other than Peugeot did not have them,
> but a full-Campy Paramount from '73 would.
In 1974 the Paramount cost $350 at Highland Cyclery in Louisville.
The stock brakes were Weinmann centerpulls but you could get the Campy
brakes for more money. I don't recall how much.
Dick Durbin
Matt O'Toole
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <vecc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030102135058...@mb-fz.aol.com...
> treynolds-<< Cool bike. As for the value, I have followed these things on
> Ebay.
> There is not a lot of value, a few hundred dollars. >><BR><BR>
>
> I have seen Colnago mags that the distributor use as packing material sell
for
> $20 on ebay. I would never use ebay as a reference for value...
Actually, ebay is becoming the gold standard for market value -- pawn shops,
etc., probably use ebay more than anything else these days. However, there
must have been enough sales of a particular item to establish a pattern.
What I would never use ebay as a reference for is *sanity.* Value, yes.
In fact, it's so good that the car dealers have been pressuring ebay to
remove the "completed items" feature from ebay motors. The thought of a
truly free market where consumers have instant access to a real-time, market
value database, scares the shit out of these bottom feeders.
I frequently browse bike stuff on ebay, just out of curiosity (and/or
amusement). And it seems that old Paramounts are very desirable, fetching
prices that seem ridiculous to me. People pay more for cruddy old frames
that happen to say "Paramount" on them than perfectly good bikes with other
names. If this bike really is NOS, I wouldn't be surprised if it sold for
over $1000. I remember seeing a similar NOS Paramount sell for almost
$2000, though it might have been a "better" or special model. Vintage bikes
from the 70s to early 80s do seem to be "in."
Matt O.
A Muzi
> news:<Z7QQ9.528102$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
> > > I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount. 531 tubing, the
> real
> > > cool looking lugs, all Campagnolo Nuovo Record,
> > > except for center pull mafac brakes, Regina Oro chain and freewheel,
> high
> > > flange hubs, Mavic campionato del Mondo rims, unglued with dry rotted
> > > clemente tires, Brooks saddle, Cinelli 64 bars, 1A stem. It came in
its
> box,
> > > with a tool kit. I think I will change a few things, like the saddle
and
> the
> > > center pulls and of course some fresh rubber and ride it on special
> rides
> > > for kicks. My question is does it have any value? Im not selling it,
but
> Im
> > > curious.
> "Meccanico di Bici" <meccani...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:24d03f55.0301...@posting.google.com...
> > What a cool old bike! As with many older bikes, the "value" is up to
> > you, or to what the collector market has established. In and of
> > itself, it could be said to be outdated, without modern amenities, not
> > easy to maintain or not as easy to use as a more modern road bike. On
> > the other hand, it's elegant and simple in it's design, reliable and
> > durable. But possibly to you or the right person, it could be so much
> > more, like their first good road bike, the machine that first gave
> > them freedom, a piece of cycling history, etc., etc.
> >
> > Find an older saddle that you can live with, but leave the rest as is,
> > I believe the Mafacs brakes are "correct", as Campy was late getting
> > into the brake game and many bikes of this age that were primarily
> > Campy used Mafacs or other French brakes. Dig out some wool shorts and
> > a hairnet and enjoy the ride!
"Wantagofast" <som...@someone.com> wrote in message
news:3e1477c7$1...@nopics.sjc...
> At that time Campy was just coming out with side pulls, perhaps 74. The
> side pull of choice at the time was Universal 77s.
Uh, Campagnolo's brake was introduced 1968.
In 1973 the Universal of choice was still the Super 68 sidepull or even the
#61 centerpull. The type 77 and CX models did not exist yet.
Paramount racing models in 1973 had Campagnolo brakes. Paramount touring
models (with longer clearances) were fitted with Weinmann Vainquer
centerpulls. No Mafac or Universal at Schwinn.
Several makers built top-of-range models with Campagnolo equipment but less
brakes. (Raleigh International for example) both for mudguard clearance and
also sometimes for price point.
A Muzi
news:<Z7QQ9.528102$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
> > I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount. 531 tubing, the
real
> > cool looking lugs, all Campagnolo Nuovo Record,
> > except for center pull mafac brakes, Regina Oro chain and freewheel,
high
> > flange hubs, Mavic campionato del Mondo rims, unglued with dry rotted
> > clemente tires, Brooks saddle, Cinelli 64 bars, 1A stem. It came in its
box,
> > with a tool kit. I think I will change a few things, like the saddle and
the
> > center pulls and of course some fresh rubber and ride it on special
rides
> > for kicks. My question is does it have any value? Im not selling it, but
Im
> > curious. Thanks.
>"Dick Durbin" <ddu...@tfn.net> wrote in message
news:4f3a7375.03010...@posting.google.com...> I don't believe
that all of the equipment is original. I don't think
> the Cinelli 1A stem wasn't introduced until after 1973 and didn't
> Paramounts from that era come with Weinmann centerpulls? Those "cool
> looking" lugs are Nervex.
I bought a 1/A Cinelli in1972. ( but I like my Cinelli #1 steel stem much
better! Truly beautiful!)
Yes on the Weinmanns.
The Nervex lug is the #7 with the ornate lines, made by DuBois.
dnacr70
mafac.....it is obvious to me that the bike has never been fully assembled
or ridden, but the box had been opened, maybe the brakes were swapped out at
some point for god knows what reason...regardless, im gonna put some nuovo's
or supers on it.
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:3e14cfb3$0$1454$272e...@news.execpc.com...
David L. Johnson
>> Neither is true. Campy sidepulls actually came out in the late '60s,
>> and by '72 were standard equipment on most high-end bikes. They were
>> costly, though ($70 IIRC, which was a lot considering full elite bikes
>> were maybe $250-$300). Maybe some road bikes other than Peugeot did
>> not have them, but a full-Campy Paramount from '73 would.
>
> In 1974 the Paramount cost $350 at Highland Cyclery in Louisville. The
> stock brakes were Weinmann centerpulls but you could get the Campy
> brakes for more money. I don't recall how much.
That seems a little high, though my bike-buying memory is set at 1971.
Still, even with "stagflation" (term coined by Agnew to describe both a
bad jobs market and high inflation), $350 in 1974 seems a bit high. But
maybe about right, since Paramounts were more expensive than some Italian
bikes at the time.
I do recall the price for the brakes, since I thought $70 was an
outrageous price to pay for a pair of brakes. I was using Weinmann 500s
at the time that I got for $5 apiece.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson
Terry Rudd
Paramounts were also available as framesets to be built up. You got the
frame, the fork and the pump.
It was quite a lot later than 1973 by the time I got my Paramount but I
bought a 1986 with a full Mavic SSC group that was new with the bike,
which was definitely not a normal Waterford group.
Terry
Steve Palincsar
> David, IIRC, Campy NR brakes were an option on certain models of the
> Paramount up to the mid or late '70s. Schwinn made a laid-back model of
> the Paramount which came with Weinmann CPs as standard equipment. It
> was a fine bike, but not the full-Campy, racing version of the
> Paramount. -- Jay Beattie.
The P15 Paramount, which came (in 1972, anyway) with a Campag triple
crankset, Weinmann centerpull brakes, 27" wheels on Campag hubs, Campag
headset and seatpost, Brooks Pro saddle and Cinelli handlebars and stem,
had 73 degree parallel angles. I wouldn't call that particularly "laid
back". It was the touring model as opposed to the racing model.
Steve Palincsar
wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 19:12:34 -0500, Dick Durbin wrote:
>
>>> Neither is true. Campy sidepulls actually came out in the late '60s,
>>> and by '72 were standard equipment on most high-end bikes. They were
>>> costly, though ($70 IIRC, which was a lot considering full elite bikes
>>> were maybe $250-$300). Maybe some road bikes other than Peugeot did
>>> not have them, but a full-Campy Paramount from '73 would.
>>
>> In 1974 the Paramount cost $350 at Highland Cyclery in Louisville. The
>> stock brakes were Weinmann centerpulls but you could get the Campy
>> brakes for more money. I don't recall how much.
>
> That seems a little high, though my bike-buying memory is set at 1971.
> Still, even with "stagflation" (term coined by Agnew to describe both a
> bad jobs market and high inflation), $350 in 1974 seems a bit high. But
> maybe about right, since Paramounts were more expensive than some
> Italian bikes at the time.
My 1972 P-15 paramount, which I ordered in mid-July of 1971, cost exactly
$352.00 plus tax. So no, $350 can't be right for 1974 - it's probably a
hundred bucks short.
Jim Adney
>I just became the owner of a 1973 Schwinn Paramount. 531 tubing, the real
>cool looking lugs, all Campagnolo Nuovo Record,
>except for center pull mafac brakes, Regina Oro chain and freewheel, high
>flange hubs, Mavic campionato del Mondo rims, unglued with dry rotted
>clemente tires, Brooks saddle, Cinelli 64 bars, 1A stem. It came in its box,
>with a tool kit.
Everything sounds right except the Mafac brakes. I don't think Schwinn
ever used them. Certainly not in that era. Earlier Paramonts would
have had Weinmann centerpulls while later ones would have come with
Campagnolo sidepulls.
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
wrote:
>Uh, Campagnolo's brake was introduced 1968.
You sure about that, Andy?
I recall David Agger going over to europe to spend the summer and
mechanic for a TDF team. I think this was in the early 70s because I
think I remember his talking about it in the YJ after his return and
telling all of us that the TDF teams had Campy brakes, which we had
never seen, nor heard of. In fact, I didn't believe him at the time.
Within a year, we had seen them here.
I went to Mazi in Aug of 73 and they were there in good quantity by
the end of that year, so I'm sure that David's experience was before
that.
I think it's just possible that Dave saw these in the summer of 71,
but it could have been 72.
A Muzi
> wrote:
> >Uh, Campagnolo's brake was introduced 1968.
"Jim Adney" <jad...@vwtype3.org> wrote in message
news:7bqc1vcm1m5bv5s4e...@4ax.com...
> You sure about that, Andy?
> I recall David Agger going over to europe to spend the summer and
> mechanic for a TDF team. I think this was in the early 70s because I
> think I remember his talking about it in the YJ after his return and
> telling all of us that the TDF teams had Campy brakes, which we had
> never seen, nor heard of. In fact, I didn't believe him at the time.
>
> Within a year, we had seen them here.
>
> I went to Mazi in Aug of 73 and they were there in good quantity by
> the end of that year, so I'm sure that David's experience was before
> that.
>
> I think it's just possible that Dave saw these in the summer of 71,
> but it could have been 72.
I must confess that in 1968 I didn't know a bicycle from a bong, so it
wasn't from personal memory. When Joanie Price introduced me to real bikes
in 1971, Campagnolo brakes were seen about town albeit rarely. The first
set I ever saw were on a white Mondia that summer(1971). I was in awe.
However, don't take my word for it. Introduction of the Record brake is a
well-documented event:
http://www.velo-retro.com/tline.html
And in the winter of 1971/72 I saw them boxed in a bicycle store display
case for the first time at Lee Katz' Turin, 1932 North Clark St before they
moved to the big store.
David L. Johnson
> On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:42:50 -0600 "A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Uh, Campagnolo's brake was introduced 1968.
>
> You sure about that, Andy?
Actually, this is true. Check campyonly.com. Their timeline says that
the Record brakeset was introduced the end of '67. They also have a link
to a restored '71 Mazi with Campy brakes,
http://www.campyonly.com/retrobikes/sachs_masi.html
I got into racing in 1970, and some more extravagant (American) riders had
Campy brakes even then. My roommate got a Cinelli in '70 with Campy
brakes. They were quite common by '73.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You
_`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it!
(_)/ (_) |
Jim Adney
wrote:
>I must confess that in 1968 I didn't know a bicycle from a bong, so it
>wasn't from personal memory. When Joanie Price introduced me to real bikes
>in 1971, Campagnolo brakes were seen about town albeit rarely. The first
>set I ever saw were on a white Mondia that summer(1971). I was in awe.
>
>However, don't take my word for it. Introduction of the Record brake is a
>well-documented event:
>http://www.velo-retro.com/tline.html
In that case, it is most likely that the conversation with Dave took
place before the YJ existed and my memory of that conversation just
puts it in the wrong place. It must have been earlier. Dave would
know.