Braben Article on BBC
Jonsend
assertion by Laura Fryer, director of the Xbox Advanced Technology
Group, that games are still something for just "geeks and guys"."
Commander Steve
What worries me about interviews with the Breadbin is that he seems hugely
enthusiastic about character animation and realism etc, which are not what
I'd think of as being major aspects of Elite 4, where surely the emphasis
would be on enemy AI, realistic planets, star systems and so on. Therefore,
I'm a bit concerned that he has a lack of interest in ever making E4 happen.
Of course, he may incorporate all of the above into an E4 which will surpass
all our hopes and expectations. Fingers crossed :-)
FrontierAstro - dedicated to Frontier and Astronomy
aaa
news:6P4ab.1217$%N.52...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> What worries me about interviews with the Breadbin is that he seems
hugely
> enthusiastic about character animation and realism etc, which are not what
> I'd think of as being major aspects of Elite 4, where surely the emphasis
> would be on enemy AI, realistic planets, star systems and so on.
Therefore,
> I'm a bit concerned that he has a lack of interest in ever making E4
happen.
space-driving techniques and star systems that before starting the
development on a new elite/frontier game (that I assume will have orbital
stations full with characters....talking characters....emotive characters)
he had preferred to perfectionize his tecniques on things like
emotions-transportation for quasi-human characters
and.....well....maybe.....
> Of course, he may incorporate all of the above into an E4 which will
surpass
> all our hopes and expectations. Fingers crossed :-)
Exactly :-) .... at least I hope so :-| ......
James Franklin
> What worries me about interviews with the Breadbin is that he seems hugely
> enthusiastic about character animation and realism etc, which are not what
> I'd think of as being major aspects of Elite 4, where surely the emphasis
> would be on enemy AI, realistic planets, star systems and so on. Therefore,
> I'm a bit concerned that he has a lack of interest in ever making E4 happen.
I think he is actually more interested in making games more acceptable
to the mainstream, which is why Frontier have got two innovative
products coming out (A Dogs Life and Wallace & Grommit) which aim to
get rid of the geek stereotype associated with games. In order to get
this mainstream acceptability, it is going to require a lot more
naturalism (as opposed to realism) than currently offered by the
limitations of most current games.
I think the existing astronomical engines they have (based around FFE)
would be fine - with a bit of tweaking. Although they are not 100%
accurate, they certainly better than most contemporary offerings, the
target market is the population at large not the minority with a
strong astronomical understanding. My interest in astronomy was
brought about because of playing Frontier, not the other way round.
> Of course, he may incorporate all of the above into an E4 which will surpass
> all our hopes and expectations. Fingers crossed :-)
Well, there was the concept art of a chick running around with a
handgun, which has disappeared off the Frontier website. That may be
included in the final version of E4, Battlecruiser had the ability to
exit a ship so I would expect E4 to do the same - only better.
If E4 happens (I am convinced it will based on comments on the
Frontier website) then I fully expect it to exceed our expectations,
DB has said as much several times.
I believe the focus on realism at the moment is due to wanting to make
NPCs as realistic as possible, so that you can be in a massively
populated universe and not be limited to "surrender or die" messages
with a "ha ha" response. I will happily forego multiplayer if there
is a larger population with some degree of individuality to them.
JamesF
Andy H
news:6P4ab.1217$%N.52...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
hugely
> enthusiastic about character animation and realism etc, which are not what
> I'd think of as being major aspects of Elite 4, where surely the emphasis
> would be on enemy AI, realistic planets, star systems and so on.
Therefore,
> I'm a bit concerned that he has a lack of interest in ever making E4
happen.
>
> Of course, he may incorporate all of the above into an E4 which will
surpass
> all our hopes and expectations. Fingers crossed :-)
I'm sure that the animating of a dog to the point that you know it's hungry
will be infinitely useful in E4. :)
Seriously, he sounds like he is having fun with what he is doing. Probably
best not to fixate to much on the propsect of an E4 until it is
announced...if ever. You'll be less upset then and might be pleasantly
surprised.
The comment at the bottom about being the author made me chuckle a little
though...looks like "co" got lost in the transcript ;)
--
Regards
Andy H
http://ovine.net/ :: Retro Freeware Games
David Braben
news:347e6bf8.03091...@posting.google.com...
> "Commander Steve" <ju...@frontierastro.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<6P4ab.1217$%N.52...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>...
>
> > What worries me about interviews with the Breadbin is that he seems
hugely
> > enthusiastic about character animation and realism etc, which are not
what
> > I'd think of as being major aspects of Elite 4, where surely the
emphasis
> > would be on enemy AI, realistic planets, star systems and so on.
Therefore,
> > I'm a bit concerned that he has a lack of interest in ever making E4
happen.
Character animation and realism are needed to make Elite 4 what I want it to
be. Think of them as steps in the process.
> I think he is actually more interested in making games more acceptable
> to the mainstream, which is why Frontier have got two innovative
> products coming out (A Dogs Life and Wallace & Grommit) which aim to
> get rid of the geek stereotype associated with games. In order to get
> this mainstream acceptability, it is going to require a lot more
> naturalism (as opposed to realism) than currently offered by the
> limitations of most current games.
This is important for reasons completely separate from the Elite games - ie
both are important.
Ironically "Dog's Life" came out of the process of trying to achieve
life-like people for E4. Getting body language right is a vital first step -
and dog's do most things by body language alone, as I said on the BBC
article.
> > Of course, he may incorporate all of the above into an E4 which will
surpass
> > all our hopes and expectations. Fingers crossed :-)
That is the plan.
> Well, there was the concept art of a chick running around with a
> handgun, which has disappeared off the Frontier website. That may be
> included in the final version of E4, Battlecruiser had the ability to
> exit a ship so I would expect E4 to do the same - only better.
It gave the wrong impression of what E4 was about, but yes, people are a big
part of it.
> If E4 happens (I am convinced it will based on comments on the
> Frontier website) then I fully expect it to exceed our expectations,
> DB has said as much several times.
I do hope so.
David
PS Commander Steve - I loved your www.frontierastro.co.uk site!
Crayfish
<dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote:
>> If E4 happens (I am convinced it will based on comments on the
>> Frontier website) then I fully expect it to exceed our expectations,
>> DB has said as much several times.
>
>I do hope so.
>
>David
>
>PS Commander Steve - I loved your www.frontierastro.co.uk site!
Well it would be nice to be able to believe all the comments published
on the web by Frontier Developments. Has it really been three years
now?
<begin quote from official site -
http://www.eliteclub.co.uk/ecnews.html >
8th November 2000
Following much discussion on the subject of open-source by the Elite
community, we have decided to make some alterations to our previous
plans for the Elite Club - we are going to relax some of the
restrictions we were intending to put on the distribution of the
source code. The source code will now be distributable more freely,
under a licence agreement similar to the GPL (GNU Public Licence). The
precise details of this licence have not yet been finalised, but it
will include conditions such as a requirement to transfer the source
code with all the relevant copyright notices intact. We may also ask
that each person who uses the source code registers with us in some
way, probably via an online signup system that will be used on this
site when the Club launches.
core99
Excuse me sir, how many pages of source code is E4 up to now (assuming it's
not a company secret)?
Nats
in a large way. After all Elite was always about the space environment.
Assuming that they arent going to be just scripted animation, this must
suggest a 3D living breathing starport at the very least where the player
can interact with characters, take on contracts etc.
I would like to see this idea implemented as characters were very important
in the original Traveller universe on which Elite was based. I would be very
nice to be able to also design your character and others to help players
create their own missions for use by others (like Operation Flashpoint).
Taking this further it would be even better if there was a way of designing
new ships adding weapons etc as a naval architect.
Taking this to another stage it may even be fun to be able to design whole
worlds adding in the weather, geology, geography and lifeforms. And then
link these together someway to create missions with certain characters, on
designed worlds etc etc.
Complex stuff but possible given some time and imagination.
But ideas such as this take time. Will Elite 4 start off small and grow with
the years? Additive modules would be the key here. Or will it be a complete
game when it comes out with littel of no development after?
And how much older am I going to be when I eventually see this game?
--
Nigel 'Nats' Stutt
nst...@nstutt.freeserve.co.uk
"Its life, Jim, but not as we know it."
"David Braben" <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FRNT944...@frontier.co.uk...
aaa
news:bla71u$5ct$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
CUT
> But ideas such as this take time. Will Elite 4 start off small and grow
with
> the years? Additive modules would be the key here. Or will it be a
complete
> game when it comes out with littel of no development after?
additional modules.
> And how much older am I going to be when I eventually see this game?
Imagine buying it in 2007 and adding the last module in 2014.....how do you
see it?
Andy H
news:bla71u$5ct$2...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I find it difficult imagining how characters will fit into a new Elite
game
> in a large way. After all Elite was always about the space environment.
> Assuming that they arent going to be just scripted animation, this must
> suggest a 3D living breathing starport at the very least where the player
> can interact with characters, take on contracts etc.
It could be a video link, like in Eve where everyone creates their own
characters faces (the best part of EVE IMHO ;))
Only if E4 can animate those faces too, that would be a nice touch. I would
not like to wander around a space station talking cheese in a cheesy way as
I have said before. It hasn't worked in any other space game so I can't see
any amount of innovation in simulating human interaction and behaviour (ie:
fancy animation) being able to cover for it. Elite creates a universe, and
to what level of detail, and to what variation of gameplay styles you
implement would probably be a fine line between a good game and the videos
in FFE ;).
I'm sure DB is brewing ideas and new concepts constantly, and it is probably
better to not linger on when's and if's and wait until there is real news.
The alternative is to make an Elite/Frontier game in your own image then you
will be perfectly happy...maybe ;)
Rhino
>
> David
>
Excellent news just to hear that it's still in progress.
A large part of what makes Elite and it's sequels so precious is the
dedication it has received from its fans over the years, transforming it
from computer game into cult. For me it stands alongside other great British
epoch making science fiction products like Hitchhikers Guide & Red Dwarf.
Surely a testament to the games' strengths but also a characteristic that
only a small handful of other games can share; something that should not be
underestimated.
I look forward to Elite 4 and if any man understands what makes a great
non-linear game, surely it's DB.
(and I wrote this after only 5 glasses of Glenfiddich)
Dave
James Franklin
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:02:07 +0100, "David Braben"
> <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote:
> >> If E4 happens (I am convinced it will based on comments on the
> >> Frontier website) then I fully expect it to exceed our expectations,
> >> DB has said as much several times.
> >
> >I do hope so.
> >
> >David
> >
> >PS Commander Steve - I loved your www.frontierastro.co.uk site!
>
> Well it would be nice to be able to believe all the comments published
> on the web by Frontier Developments. Has it really been three years
> now?
The Elite club is currently in limbo. However, the guy that was
appointed MD(David Walsh, IIRC) stated that it will be looked at
again. I imagine that this will be close to the release of E4 and not
before.
Why should FDL invest time & money tidying source code, sorting out an
appropriate licence (FDL did not want to use a GPL) and publishing it
to the web? At most, they have a few hundred people demanding it, and
they are not likely to get a drop of income from it.
Spending time developing other games is perfectly sensible and any
organisation that pandered to a few hundred pseudo-despots rather than
revenue-generating activities would not deserve to be in existence.
JamesF
Crayfish
Franklin) wrote:
>cr...@supanet.com (Crayfish) wrote in message news:<3f784a38....@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
>> on the web by Frontier Developments. Has it really been three years
>> now?
>
>appropriate licence (FDL did not want to use a GPL) and publishing it
>to the web? At most, they have a few hundred people demanding it, and
>they are not likely to get a drop of income from it.
Because they were the ones who announced it and said it was going to
happen. They could at least have updated their Elite club web page in
the last three years to tell people they had put the whole thing on
hold.
As for what benefit they would get from releasing the source code,
thats been discussed here before. They may not get any revenue
benefit, but they could get a big PR benefit. Elite is a favorite of
many computer journalists, most of whom would pay attention to the
release of the FFE source code.
Oh and I think you're underestimating the popularity of the game when
you say "only a few hundred". If I recall, the polls on the Elite
club pages had many thousands of votes.
--
Crayfish
James Franklin
> Because they were the ones who announced it and said it was going to
> happen. They could at least have updated their Elite club web page in
> the last three years to tell people they had put the whole thing on
> hold.
So, they have changed their focus; businesses change - it's how they
stay in business. I guess FDL are getting pretty fed up with listening
to the whinging, because they have updated
http://www.eliteclub.co.uk/faq.html With any luck, the complaints
here will stop.
> As for what benefit they would get from releasing the source code,
> thats been discussed here before. They may not get any revenue
> benefit, but they could get a big PR benefit. Elite is a favorite of
> many computer journalists, most of whom would pay attention to the
> release of the FFE source code.
I would argue that most games editors, while they may retain a
fondness for Frontier, are not really that interested in the source
code. It may merit a quarter page article (and probably less), whereas
releasing a new game (whether it's Dogs Life, W&G or E4) will get
substantially more coverage.
> Oh and I think you're underestimating the popularity of the game when
> you say "only a few hundred". If I recall, the polls on the Elite
> club pages had many thousands of votes.
That was 3 years ago, I think it is a fair assumption now that there
has been some reduction in that interest. The only people that really
really seem to ask the question nowadays are people that seem to be
intent on harrassing David Braben for whatever reason motivates them.
JamesF
Crayfish
Franklin) wrote:
>cr...@supanet.com (Crayfish) wrote in message news:<3f7a997b....@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
>fondness for Frontier, are not really that interested in the source
>code. It may merit a quarter page article (and probably less), whereas
>releasing a new game (whether it's Dogs Life, W&G or E4) will get
>substantially more coverage.
I agree that it would probably only warrant a news article in most
magazines. But I still feel that the ongoing public relations benefit
would be worth the investment in time. I can't see any way in which
the amount of time that would be needed to administer the set up of
the source distribution could in any way come near to the amount that
needs to be invested when writing a new title.
I can't really work out why releasing the code should take any longer
than say 1 or 2 man weeks. A couple of years ago Andrew Gillett
mentioned he had been spending time going through the code and
pre-preparing it for release. Is that really essential? Isn't that
something that could be done by volunteers as a first step to more
general release of code that will actually compile up on modern
compilers? And why is working out the legal implications of licensing
so hard? Many of other small development teams have released their
obselete source code with little problem.
>> Oh and I think you're underestimating the popularity of the game when
>> you say "only a few hundred". If I recall, the polls on the Elite
>> club pages had many thousands of votes.
>
>That was 3 years ago, I think it is a fair assumption now that there
>has been some reduction in that interest. The only people that really
>really seem to ask the question nowadays are people that seem to be
>intent on harrassing David Braben for whatever reason motivates them.
I think its a fair assumption that there will have been *some*
reduction in interest. But I bet it is more like 5% than over %50
that it would take to reduce interest down as much as you suggested.
And who's harrassing David? I'm asking questions, but I'm an admirer
of David and his ambitions. I genuinely believe that releasing the
FFE source code through the Elite club would be a positive thing for
both his company and the fan community.
--
Crayfish
Dylan Smith
>I agree that it would probably only warrant a news article in most
>magazines. But I still feel that the ongoing public relations benefit
>would be worth the investment in time. I can't see any way in which
>the amount of time that would be needed to administer the set up of
>the source distribution could in any way come near to the amount that
>needs to be invested when writing a new title.
In fact, it'd take Frontier Devs *very* little time. Some members of the
community have the resources to keep a good CVS server etc. online,
and are very willing to do it. However, Frontier Developments appear
to want control - and if they want control, it's going to cost time,
and quite a lot of it.
It appears relinquishing control to the community isn't an option that
they can stomach.
I think part of it is that maybe David Braben is embarrassed at the
code quality. Since FFE was rushed (by all accounts, not DB's or FDL's
fault since FD successfully sued the remains of Gametek over this issue)
it's likely that the code is...erm... 'baroque'. As an author with
pride, not wanting to release a pile of goop as source code is
understandable. I've written code myself that is so embarrassingly bad
I'll never let anyone else see it (erm, EBBS code <g>)
In reality, if FD (a) didn't need to retain control and (b) wasn't too
concerned about being embarrassed about the bad code quality, it would
take all of half an hour to stick the GPL at the header of each file,
release it, and say 'community: make of it what you can'.
>>That was 3 years ago, I think it is a fair assumption now that there
>>has been some reduction in that interest. The only people that really
>>really seem to ask the question nowadays are people that seem to be
>>intent on harrassing David Braben for whatever reason motivates them.
>
>I think its a fair assumption that there will have been *some*
>reduction in interest.
On the flip side, would the reduction of interest had happened *if*
the source was released 3 years ago? If, by having the source, the
game could have been improved more (better video resolution, better working
sound, more polish) - maybe interest would have *increased* as new
players wouldn't be so put off by blocky graphics and outdated sound
effects.
I think FDL are being unnecessarily paranoid about the control aspects
of the source: we see no evidence that id Software releasing their
code under an open source license has harmed their business.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
James Franklin
> I agree that it would probably only warrant a news article in most
> magazines. But I still feel that the ongoing public relations benefit
> would be worth the investment in time. I can't see any way in which
> the amount of time that would be needed to administer the set up of
> the source distribution could in any way come near to the amount that
> needs to be invested when writing a new title.
Agreed the investment is substantially less, but if takes people away
from working on a revenue-generating project, even if it is only for
two weeks, then that is lost productivity.
> I can't really work out why releasing the code should take any longer
> than say 1 or 2 man weeks. A couple of years ago Andrew Gillett
> mentioned he had been spending time going through the code and
> pre-preparing it for release. Is that really essential? Isn't that
> something that could be done by volunteers as a first step to more
> general release of code that will actually compile up on modern
> compilers? And why is working out the legal implications of licensing
> so hard? Many of other small development teams have released their
> obselete source code with little problem.
Well, my thoughts sort of concur with Dylan's below. I also have it
my head that it was a relatively small team that worked on it (5
people or so), so I would guess that they were rather sparse with
commenting, documentation, etc. My experience of those kind of dev
teams is that we spent most "design" time chatting about issues, etc.
10 years on with fresh eyes looking at it, and it's probably going to
take a good deal of time to fix. Andrew was looking at it in his free
time, along with updating the web site. With projects nearing
completion, I imagine that free time became something of a rare
commodity.
> I think its a fair assumption that there will have been *some*
> reduction in interest. But I bet it is more like 5% than over %50
> that it would take to reduce interest down as much as you suggested.
> And who's harrassing David? I'm asking questions, but I'm an admirer
> of David and his ambitions. I genuinely believe that releasing the
> FFE source code through the Elite club would be a positive thing for
> both his company and the fan community.
I registered that I was interested in getting the source code, however
after a while I accepted that it was not going to happen any time
soon. The harrassing comment was a generalisation and was probably
inspired by the Derek Smart/alt.comp.spacesim or whatever squabble.
It would be pretty annoying if this newsgroup sank to that level. The
fact that I post via google means I can't filter out the dross :(
It would be a positive thing for the current fan community to release
the source code, I do not doubt. The fact that we still have an
interest in a 10 year old game shows that we are all slightly obsessed
;) However, FDL priorities should be with garnering a new and larger
fan base, there is a new generation of gamers out there to be
targetted - of course, whether they can live without cut scenes and
get their minds around a true open-ended game remains to be seen.
JamesF
Rob Berry
> On the flip side, would the reduction of interest had happened *if*
> the source was released 3 years ago? If, by having the source, the
> game could have been improved more (better video resolution, better
working
> sound, more polish) - maybe interest would have *increased* as new
> players wouldn't be so put off by blocky graphics and outdated sound
> effects.
A very good point but in reality I wonder if the source could have been used
easily to do so. If it was that easy, I'm sure Mr. Jordan would have
already done it!
> I think FDL are being unnecessarily paranoid about the control aspects
> of the source: we see no evidence that id Software releasing their
> code under an open source license has harmed their business.
Very possibly true, in fact id Software themselves accept releasing the code
made them money in other ways. Perhaps FD isn't interested in making money
either.
Rob.
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