talk/alt religion bahai are Covenant breaking newsgroups
george.fleming2
609: Bahai's Cannot associate with Those who have left the Faith and are
associating with Covenant breakers. (Page 185 Lights of Guidance)
Joel J. Marangella calls himself the third Guardian and uses these groups to
attack the Baha'i Faith.
<jm...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Re: INEXCUSABLE MULTIPLE FAILURES OF THE HANDS i
in article 189ac3e8.02072...@posting.google.com, Sufi Baha'i at
pe...@capebyron.com wrote on 29/7/02 9:46 PM:
> If Shoghi Effendi would have
> wanted to appoint someone 100 years old he could have, it would be
> seen as a safety measure, incase something tragic (such as a flu
> epedemic) happened, you make a big thing of age, when there is no
> reason to. Shoghi Effendi never pretended to know when he was going
> to die. King Hussein of Jordan hid his real successor until a short
> time before he died, Shoghi Effendi would be seen as doing the same.
>
> Shoghi Effendi would have convened the 9 Hands to decide on his
> choice. It would have been so simple. He would not have left the
> loose end of approval, what if the 9 hands rejected his choice after
> he was dead, he would not have taken the chance.
>
> Shoghi Effendi was waiting for one of the Aghsan to return to the
> Faith. If he had lived now or had Viagra been invented 60 years
> earlier maybe there wouldn't have been a problem with succession.
>
> This whole argument is stupid, you want us to believe that Shoghi
> Effendi would have essentially destroyed the Faith because he didn't
> want Ruhhiyah Khanum to know he was going to die soon? Does this
> sound like the Shoghi Effendi we know? Does this sound like the
> Ruhiyyah Khanum we got to know after his death? Nothing in your
> argument passes the common sense meter.
You may choose to give consideration to the following:
1. On the bottom of page 239 of "God Passes By" the term "Aghsán" clearly
means (His sons) for, Shoghi Effendi has specifically identified the Aghsán
only as Baháąuąlláhąs sons and not a term designating His other male
relatives.
*************** *************** *************** ***************
Quoted from the Third Guardian's document entitled:
Inexcusable Multiple Failures by the Hands
http://Bahai-Guardian.com/failures.html
*************** *************** *************** ***************
"Failure to discover the unexpected, indirect, yet clear manner, in which
Shoghi Effendi had faithfully appointed his successor "in his own life-time"
as required under the terms of ŚAbduąl-Baháąs Will and Testament. They may
have discovered this, had they taken the time to carefully review Shoghi
Effendiąs pertinent acts, decisions, and messages, particularly during the
last seven years of his ministry, and, in doing so, had not been blinded by
their erroneous interpretation of the terms of the Will and Testament of
ŚAbduąl-Bahá which resulted in their holding the fallacious belief that
these terms restricted the Guardianąs choice of a successor to male
relatives of the blood line of Baháąuąlláh, whom they had further
incorrectly defined as Aghsán, a term which Shoghi Effendi had stated
applied only to the "sons" of Baháąuąlláh who, as contemporaries of
ŚAbduąl-Bahá, would have long since died prior to the passing of Shoghi
Effendi and therefore obviously would never have been available for
consideration, much less appointment, as his successor. "
***************
end quote
***************
You would also be aware that Mason Remey was appointed by Shoghi Effendi to
be the President and thus the head of the International Baha'i Council which
Shoghi Effendi called into being in his laudatory Proclamation of 9 January,
1951 ( the only time Shoghi Effendi utilised the word "Proclaim" to open any
of his messages in cablegram form to the Baha'i World ) and which I would
urge you to read. It can be found at:
http://Bahai-Guardian.com/Proc9.Jan.html
Your reference to the convening of the [elected nine] Hands (which body had
never been brought into existence during the ministry of Shoghi Effendi )
which you state should have given their assent to the choice of the
Guardian's successor, is not applicable. Even if that body had been brought
into existence, a "will" is not the manner to which the Successor/Guardian
is to be named as he must be appointed in the incumbent Guardian's lifetime.
The following quote from "Baha'i News", dated February, 1955 will affirm
this. http://www.rt66.com/~obfusa/newspage/288-55.htm
****************
Statement of Shoghi Effendi
in Baha'i News
****************
"The statement in the Will of 'Abdu'l-Bahá does not imply that the Hands of
the Cause of God have been given the authority to overrule the Guardian.
'Abdu'l-Bahá could not have provided for a conflict of authority in the
Faith. This is obvious, in view of His own words, which you will find on
page 13 (p. 11 of 1944 U.S. edition) of the Will and Testament of
'Abdu'l-Bahá. "The mighty stronghold shall remain impregnable and safe
through obedience to him who is the guardian of the Cause of God. It is
incumbent upon...the Hands of the Cause of God to show their obedience,
submissiveness and subordination unto the guardian of the Cause of God, to
turn unto him and be lowly before him. He that opposeth him hath opposed the
True One,"
*************
end quote
*************
It would also be important to review and consider one of the most
significant statements which was made by Shoghi Effendi with regard to his
descendants and found in the Pilgrim Notes of Gayle Woolsen:
******************
Quote
******************
"One of the Persian pilgrims present at Haifa when I was, told me that one
of the Persian men in their group had asked the Guardian about his
descendants, about a son, and the Guardian answered,
"EVERYTHING THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE WILL AND TESTAMENT WILL BE FULFILLED. THE
BAHA'IS MUST NOT BE ANXIOUS ABOUT THIS."
(Extracted from Haifa Notes of Gayle Woolson, Feb.16-25, 1956)
http://www.bahai-guardian.com/intro.html
********************** ********************** **********************
Extract from the "Unaswered Letters to Rúhíyyih Khánum"
written by Joel Bray Marangella, Third Guardian of
the Bahá'í Faith
http://www.bahai-guardian.com/third.html
********************** ********************** **********************
"Certainly you [Rúhíyyih Khánum] and those who follow you must ask
themselves why Shoghi Effendi would have given such definite assurances
concerning the continuity of the Guardianship if, in fact, there was no one
destined to succeed him. You would be the last one to accuse him of
deceiving the Baháąís or giving them false assurances. He could make the
statement he did to this pilgrim for the very reason that I have attempted
to point out in my previous two letters to you and that is that he had, in
fact, already provided for his successor in appointing him the Head or
President-to-be of the active Universal House of Justice, then only in its
inactive embryonic state of development prior to becoming the International
Baháąí Court, whose Head or Chief Judge could be none other than the
Guardian of the Faith according to the sacred provisions of the Will and
Testament of the Master.
**********************
End quote
**********************
********************** **********************
Quotation from the
document entitled:
"Inexcusable Multiple Failures of the Hands"
********************** **********************
During the last seven years of his thirty-six year ministry that had
commenced in 1921 with the Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi decided
that the situation at the World Center of the Faith had become favorable and
the development of the Faith had reached the stage where he could "at long
last" erect the International Institutions of the Faith, taking into
consideration the significant factor, among others, of "the present
adequate maturity of nine vigoorously functioning national administrative
institutions throughout the Bahá'í World." The first "embryonic
International Institution" that he brought into existence was the Universal
House of Justice, which he established by appointment in January 1951 and
titled in this initial embryonic stage, the International Bahá'í Council. He
appointed Mason Remey, an American Bahá'í, the President of this Council, a
believer whose services to the Faith following his acceptance of the Faith
as a young man at the turn of the Century remained unparalleled, having
included his world-wide teaching efforts in many countries on behalf of the
Faith, his authourship of several of the earliest books written on the Faith
and his notable architectural achievements for the Faith, as the architect
of three Bahá'í Temples already constructed, and two yet to be built (
chosen architect by 'Abdu'l-Bahá for the one to be built on Mount Carmel and
chosen by Shoghi Effendi for the one to be built in Tihran ) and the
magnificent International Achives Building built on Mount Carmel. He had
been repeatedly eulogized by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in His Tablets ( appearing in
publication of the Star of the West) for the purity of his motives and
exemplary fidelity to the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh, and had been uniquely
promised by Him in one of His Tablets that "Ere long thy Lord shall make
thee a sign of guidance among mankind."
http://Bahai-Guardian.com/eulogy.html
********************** **********************
end Quotation from the
document entitled:
"Inexcusable Multiple Failures of the Hands"
********************** **********************
I would suggest that you take the time to review the documents listed above
in order to better understand the position of those Bahá'ís who follow and
give support to the present designate/Guardian and perceive that,
Guardians, then, as well as now, and into the future, will always appoint
"in his [their] own lifetime" in clear and unambiguous language as was done,
in the case of Shoghi Effendi, when he named Mason Remey to be the
President and designated successor and "sacred head" of the UHJ, the
embryonic form being the International Bahá'í Council. Thus, it was to be no
one other than Mason Remey. It was not until November of 1957, at the
moment of Shoghi Effendi's passing (caused by coronary thrombosis brought on
by a severe case of Asiatic influenza) that Mason assumed the mantle of
Guardian. You would find it most interesting, I can asssure you, to read his
Proclamation: http://Bahai-Guardian.com/Mason.proc.html
Those Bahá'ís who have understood this, now aspire and agree with the many
statements of facts and many shared beliefs expressed in documents
entreaties, appeals, and apologia, which have been written by Mason Remey's
duly-appointed successor and the present and Third Guardian of the Bahá'í
Faith and have continuously -- this, now for the past 40 years -- championed
the continuity of the Guardianship and those sacred and immutable provisions
of the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá which underpin the entire fabric
of the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh, representing as it does the very
foundation upon which the continuity of the Faith must needs continue to
evolve and progress.
WEB:
george.fleming2
> talk/alt religion bahai are Covenant breaking newsgroups
>
609: Bahai's Cannot associate with Those who have left the Faith and are
associating with Covenant breakers. (Page 185 Lights of Guidance).
There is no excuse for believers continuing to associate with...and those
who knowing everything, still insist on doing so, should be shunned by their
fellow Baha'is. The same applies to people who have left the Cause and
associate with. The point is that if the believers iknow and meet with
people who are aquainted with Covenant Breakers there is no harm in this ,
for such indivduals are not Baha'is and have nothing to do with the issues
concerned. But those who have left the Cause, knowingly all, about such
matters (AS ALL THE DISSIDENTS ON TALK/ALT RELIGION BAHAI) and deliberately
associate with Covenant breakers (like Joel J. Marangella below) are aware
of what they do, and we must not associate with them at all. It is for the
Local Assembly, guided by the NSA, to enforce such decisions and protect the
Cause in its area of Jurisdition".
"The friends should, without too much dwelling on these negative things, be
made to understand that some people are spirtually sick and that their
disease is alas contagious. Some recover from it , as did MR....whose heart
could not rest till he returned to the fold; others do not. (LIKE THE
HARDENED BUNCH OF DISSIDENTS ON TALK RELIGION BAHA'I)< The Master and
Baha'u'llah have taught us that associating with these souls is not likely
to heal any of them at all, but on the contrary exposes one to grave danger
of contagion. The history of the Faith has proved this over and over again.
The only way we can prove to such people that they are wrong is to cencure
their conduct.; if we sympathise with them we only fortify their perversity
and waywardness"(On behalf of the Guardian Lights of Guidance page 185)
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Dermod Ryder
"george.fleming2" <george....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:B98711FC.6EC3%george....@btinternet.com...
> talk/alt religion bahai are Covenant breaking newsgroups
Get a life, George, and catch yourself on!
TRB/ARB are unmoderated newsgroups open to all. That includes BIGS,
non-BIGS, unenrolled Bahai, members of the Orthodox and other Bahai
groups. If there are people here you do not want to speak to, that is
your prerogative - nobody has forced you to come here and nobody will
force you to speak to anybody here.
You have spammed these groups (and others) tonight and in so doing
shamed yourself and the Faith you are apparently endeavouring to
protect. Most sensible people here have you in their kill-files -
you'll be in mine before this day is out. If you continue with this
spamming you'll be talking to yourself unless you also kill-file
yourself, in which case your 90 plus posts to date will simply rest in
the archives for some future historian to ponder in incredulity.
Many of those you have spammed tonight are not Bahais and are not
subject to the strictures issued by or for the the AO. If I, for
example, wish to speak to those you so arrogantly and pejoratively
dismiss as Covenant Breakers, I shall do so and there is nothing you
or the Grumpies or any other A Onion can do about it. I am not
subject to the Bahai diktat and I am not influenced by the hatred that
so motivates the Bahais in dealing with people who profess a different
belief system.
Your action here tonight and what you have said is utterly repulsive
to me and many here. You have made a sterling contribution to the
widening of the existent chasms that blot the Bahai landscape and
desertion by troops.
> only as Bahá¹u¹lláh¹s sons and not a term designating His other male
> relatives.
>
> *************** *************** *************** ***************
> Quoted from the Third Guardian's document entitled:
> Inexcusable Multiple Failures by the Hands
>
> http://Bahai-Guardian.com/failures.html
> *************** *************** *************** ***************
> "Failure to discover the unexpected, indirect, yet clear manner, in
which
> Shoghi Effendi had faithfully appointed his successor "in his own
life-time"
> as required under the terms of OAbdu¹l-Bahá¹s Will and Testament.
They may
> have discovered this, had they taken the time to carefully review
Shoghi
> Effendi¹s pertinent acts, decisions, and messages, particularly
during the
> last seven years of his ministry, and, in doing so, had not been
blinded by
> their erroneous interpretation of the terms of the Will and
Testament of
> OAbdu¹l-Bahá which resulted in their holding the fallacious belief
that
> these terms restricted the Guardian¹s choice of a successor to male
> relatives of the blood line of Bahá¹u¹lláh, whom they had further
> incorrectly defined as Aghsán, a term which Shoghi Effendi had
stated
> applied only to the "sons" of Bahá¹u¹lláh who, as contemporaries of
> OAbdu¹l-Bahá, would have long since died prior to the passing of
> deceiving the Bahá¹ís or giving them false assurances. He could make
the
> statement he did to this pilgrim for the very reason that I have
attempted
> to point out in my previous two letters to you and that is that he
had, in
> fact, already provided for his successor in appointing him the Head
or
> President-to-be of the active Universal House of Justice, then only
in its
> inactive embryonic state of development prior to becoming the
International
> Bahá¹í Court, whose Head or Chief Judge could be none other than the
george.fleming2
Grim_Re...@btinternet.com wrote on 19/8/02 9:14 pm:
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