The Size of the Universe
Libertarian Bill
A big as it needs to be.
And not one cubic centimeter bigger.
Bill D.
William Clifford
I'm adding a few new things to my ships and stations of SF document
<http://www.ionline.com/wobh/misc/s&s.html> and need some help. In my
copy of Robert Heinlein's _Orphans in the Sky_ there is something in
the front page blurb about how the ship is five miles long and two
thousand feet across. However I can't find any evidence for this in
the text. Is there some clue I missed?
I recall reading somewhere that it takes place in the Lazarus Long
timeline and that story is the story of the second of two interstallar
colony ships that get sent out. Perhaps the figure in the front cover
of my copy comes from another story in which both ships are described?
I haven't read _Methuselah's Children_ or _Time Enough for Love_ so I
really wouldn't know. Perhaps there is another source for this info
altogether?
Can anyone help me out here? I need an excerpt or at least a pointer.
Thanks in advance.
--
|William Clifford |"If you draw a bow, draw the strongest.|
|wo...@yahoo.com | Yes, and if you use and arrow, use the|
|lame webpage at: | longest. (Oh yes!)" |
|http://www.ionline.com/wobh | Squirrel Nut Zippers, "Soon"|
ddavitt
> I'm adding a few new things to my ships and stations of SF document
> <http://www.ionline.com/wobh/misc/s&s.html> and need some help. In my
> copy of Robert Heinlein's _Orphans in the Sky_ there is something in
> the front page blurb about how the ship is five miles long and two
> thousand feet across. However I can't find any evidence for this in
> the text. Is there some clue I missed?
>
> I recall reading somewhere that it takes place in the Lazarus Long
> timeline and that story is the story of the second of two interstallar
> colony ships that get sent out. Perhaps the figure in the front cover
> of my copy comes from another story in which both ships are described?
> I haven't read _Methuselah's Children_ or _Time Enough for Love_ so I
> really wouldn't know. Perhaps there is another source for this info
> altogether?
>
> Can anyone help me out here? I need an excerpt or at least a pointer.
>
>
I looked through Orphans and couldn't find any exact descriptions of the
size of the ship. Just poetical bits like, "mile after mile of snug
compartments"
Its eventual fate ( and that of Hugh's team on the planet) is discussed
near the end of Time Enough For Love when the derelict Vanguard is found
drifting in space. It just says in TEFL that;
'Although it has been forgotten the _New Frontiers_was not the first
starship. She had an older sister, the _Vanguard_ ,that left the Solar
System a few years earlier than the momentous date on which Lazarus Long
commandeered the _New Frontiers_. She was headed for Alpha Centauri but
never reached there...."
In "Orphans" the destination was Proxima Centauri and the date of launch
was 2119. When the Vanguard is found, everyone is dead. Its path is
tracked backwards and the descendants of Hugh's party are found. Their
culture is one of primitive hunter gatherers but they are of a high
intelligence and very violent. They are still practising cannibalism and
attack the landing party of scientists, killing some of them.
Jane
Bryan R. Stahl
news:391EDB68...@netcom.ca...
> In "Orphans" the destination was Proxima Centauri and the date of launch
> was 2119. When the Vanguard is found, everyone is dead. Its path is
> tracked backwards and the descendants of Hugh's party are found. Their
> culture is one of primitive hunter gatherers but they are of a high
> intelligence and very violent. They are still practising cannibalism and
> attack the landing party of scientists, killing some of them.
I just had a thought on this; do we actually know it was Hugh's
group, or were they descended from the mutineers who took the
other boats? (I know, there's no text-evidence either way, just
throwing it out for your thoughts.)
--
Bryan
"This Universe never did make sense; I suspect
that it was built on government contract." -- Heinlein
James Gifford
> group, or were they descended from the mutineers who took the
> other boats? (I know, there's no text-evidence either way, just
> throwing it out for your thoughts.)
I don't think there is any mention of other boats. The one that Hugh's
group takes appears to be the last one available.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gif...@nitrosyncretic.com |
| ROBERT A. HEINLEIN: A READER'S COMPANION now on sale! |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for details & the Heinlein FAQ |
Ward Griffiths
>
> "ddavitt" <dda...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:391EDB68...@netcom.ca...
>
> > In "Orphans" the destination was Proxima Centauri and the date of launch
> > was 2119. When the Vanguard is found, everyone is dead. Its path is
> > tracked backwards and the descendants of Hugh's party are found. Their
> > culture is one of primitive hunter gatherers but they are of a high
> > intelligence and very violent. They are still practising cannibalism and
> > attack the landing party of scientists, killing some of them.
>
> group, or were they descended from the mutineers who took the
> other boats? (I know, there's no text-evidence either way, just
> throwing it out for your thoughts.)
The original mutiny was apparently far short of Proxima, and I recall
from the text that the landing boats weren't good for much except that
one function. If Huff's mutineer's had reached Proxima, likely some
sign would have been found when the Libby Drive became available to
start the Diaspora. Though probably the mutiny was within a couple of
decades of the return of the Far Frontiers. When the mutiny occurred
the ship was probably at its maximum small-fraction-of-c velocity and
it went through the centaur without slowing, since the main drives were
turned off at that time and never restarted after. The satellite of a
super-Jovian that Hugh, Alan and their few companions landed on was
almost definitely within a few score light-years of Earth around a Sun
with a spectrum that would have left it overlooked as desirable real
estate during the major part of the exodus from Old Home Terra. Else
there would have been people already living there when they arrived.
--
Ward Griffiths wdg...@home.com http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/
"No matter how deep you've buried it, never underestimate the ability
of shit to find a fan" F. Paul Wilson, _Legacies_
Ward Griffiths
>
> > I just had a thought on this; do we actually know it was Hugh's
> > group, or were they descended from the mutineers who took the
> > other boats? (I know, there's no text-evidence either way, just
> > throwing it out for your thoughts.)
>
> group takes appears to be the last one available.
I think he was referring to Huff's mutineers from ca. a century into
the Trip and the ones who took those other boats. And undoubtedly died
in the dark somewhere between Sol and Proxima.
ddavitt
> I think he was referring to Huff's mutineers from ca. a century into
> the Trip and the ones who took those other boats. And undoubtedly died
> in the dark somewhere between Sol and Proxima.
> --
>
Yes; I doubt they would've had much chance as it's unlikely that the mutiny
coincided with the Vanguard passing close enough to a suitable planet. Good
point though but I think we are meant to assume it was descendants of Hugh's
group.
Jane
Gaeltach
Ward Griffiths wrote:
<snip>
> The satellite of a super-Jovian that Hugh, Alan and their few companions
> landed on was
> almost definitely within a few score light-years of Earth around a Sun
> with a spectrum that would have left it overlooked as desirable real
> estate during the major part of the exodus from Old Home Terra. Else
> there would have been people already living there when they arrived.
> --
> Ward Griffiths
I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read many, many
years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star.... suspended
animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth had
created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
(centuries?). Anyone remember it?
Sean
gael...@fan.net.au
***************
.... and now for something completely different:
No speed? Nurses run deep, son.
***************
JustinM
news:391F30A2...@fan.net.au...
>
> I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read
many, many
> years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star....
suspended
> animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth
had
> created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
> (centuries?). Anyone remember it?
>
A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
Cheers,
Justin
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Come to Justin's Place at http://www.moss53.freeserve.co.uk
SF reviews, info on my current music projects, not to mention
various associated ramblings.
Gaeltach
JustinM wrote:
> "Gaeltach" <gael...@fan.net.au> wrote in message
> news:391F30A2...@fan.net.au...
> >
> > I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read
> many, many
> > years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star....
> suspended
> > animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth
> had
> > created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
> > (centuries?). Anyone remember it?
> >
>
> A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
>
> Cheers,
>
> Justin
Yep, that must be it. Thanks Justin. I guess this scenario could have been
possible in _Orphans_ as well, given the number of generations involved, and the
advances in technology back on Earth. Or even a rescue mission from Earth to
bring in all the early "snail-paced" ships, once they could travel much faster?
But that's probably another story.
Sean
gael...@fan.net.au
***************
.... and now for something completely different:
Rats live on no evil star.
***************
Ward Griffiths
>
> JustinM wrote:
>
> > "Gaeltach" <gael...@fan.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:391F30A2...@fan.net.au...
> > >
> > > I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read
> > many, many
> > > years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star....
> > suspended
> > > animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth
> > had
> > > created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
> > > (centuries?). Anyone remember it?
> > >
> >
> > A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Justin
>
> Yep, that must be it. Thanks Justin. I guess this scenario could have been
> possible in _Orphans_ as well, given the number of generations involved, and the
> advances in technology back on Earth. Or even a rescue mission from Earth to
> bring in all the early "snail-paced" ships, once they could travel much faster?
> But that's probably another story.
That would have been difficult with regard to the Vanguard, since the
Libby-Sheffield drive apparently didn't allow any observation of the
"normal" universe while in progress. And space is deep. And a ship
five miles by a quarter mile or so really isn't that big a target.
The story or two that I recall sleeper or generation ships being
"rescued" involved the ships staying pretty close to their planned
courses or at least broadcasting a beacon of some sort. Definitely
not the case in the Vanguard.
Ogden Johnson III
wrote:
>Ward Griffiths wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The satellite of a super-Jovian that Hugh, Alan and their few companions
>> landed on was
>> almost definitely within a few score light-years of Earth around a Sun
>> with a spectrum that would have left it overlooked as desirable real
>> estate during the major part of the exodus from Old Home Terra. Else
>> there would have been people already living there when they arrived.
>> --
>> Ward Griffiths
>I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read many, many
>years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star.... suspended
>animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth had
>created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
>(centuries?). Anyone remember it?
I do indeed, although not the title or author.
I hope someone later in the thread has it, else it's going to bother
me the rest of the night.
OJ III
Mark Atwood
>
> >I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read many, many
> >years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star.... suspended
> >animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth had
> >created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
> >(centuries?). Anyone remember it?
>
> I do indeed, although not the title or author.
>
> I hope someone later in the thread has it, else it's going to bother
> me the rest of the night.
I remember that. If it's the short I remember, one of the crew died in
route and it wasnt so "clean" as dying in cryposleep. When they got to
their destination to a hero's welcome, their "guide" had been training
for decades for the job, and some of that training stemmed from the
fact that "contemperary humans" smelled FOUL to "future humans".
--
Mark Atwood | It is the hardest thing for intellectuals to understand, that
m...@pobox.com | just because they haven't thought of something, somebody else
| might. <http://www.friesian.com/rifkin.htm>
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Ogden Johnson III
<Jus...@Moss53.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"Gaeltach" <gael...@fan.net.au> wrote in message
>news:391F30A2...@fan.net.au...
>> I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read
>many, many
>> years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star....
>suspended
>> animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth
>had
>> created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
>> (centuries?). Anyone remember it?
>A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
>
>Cheers,
And Cheers right back, Justin. You just saved me a lot of trouble
getting to sleep tonight. That collection was one of my earliest
reads. From my HS library - in the '50s yet. We had an excellent
librarian, who believed in a healthy and variety filled fiction
section. Everything from your basic HS English classics through lots
of SF, mysteries, etc., etc., etc. A marvelous lady.
OJ III
Bill Woods
> JustinM wrote:
>
> > "Gaeltach" <gael...@fan.net.au> wrote in message
> > news:391F30A2...@fan.net.au...
> > >
> > > I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story
> > > I read many, many years ago.Something like this - The first trip
> > > to a nearby star.... suspended animation.... once they got there,
> > > they found that new technology on Earth had created faster
> > > spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
> > > (centuries?). Anyone remember it?
> > >
> >
> > A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
> >
or perhaps "Father of the Stars" by Frederik Pohl
(the destination was Groombridge xxxx)
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Justin
>
> Yep, that must be it. Thanks Justin. I guess this scenario could have
> been possible in _Orphans_ as well, given the number of generations
> involved, and the advances in technology back on Earth. Or even a
> rescue mission from Earth to bring in all the early "snail-paced" ships,
> once they could travel much faster? But that's probably another story.
_Time for the Stars_ by Heinlein
"All the Bridges Rusting" by Larry Niven
--
Bill Woods
-- __o ___ __0 <| _~@ __O
-- _`\<,_ |___| _`\<,_ |o\ -`\<;`\<,
___ (*)/ (*) _______ (*)+--(*)/ (*) ______ (*)--(*)%---/(*) ___
"Work to eat, eat to live, live to bike, bike to work."
-- Dave Fork
Gaeltach
Ward Griffiths wrote:
<snip>
> That would have been difficult with regard to the Vanguard, since the
> Libby-Sheffield drive apparently didn't allow any observation of the
> "normal" universe while in progress. And space is deep. And a ship
> five miles by a quarter mile or so really isn't that big a target.
>
> The story or two that I recall sleeper or generation ships being
> "rescued" involved the ships staying pretty close to their planned
> courses or at least broadcasting a beacon of some sort. Definitely
> not the case in the Vanguard.
I'll have to read _Orphans_ again obviously. Did the Vanguard deviate from it's
planned course? I can't remember the circumstances, but did this happen during the
original mutiny?
Sean
gael...@fan.net.au
***************
.... and now for something completely different:
Harpo.... O.P. RAH.
***************
Ward Griffiths
>
> Ward Griffiths wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > That would have been difficult with regard to the Vanguard, since the
> > Libby-Sheffield drive apparently didn't allow any observation of the
> > "normal" universe while in progress. And space is deep. And a ship
> > five miles by a quarter mile or so really isn't that big a target.
> >
> > The story or two that I recall sleeper or generation ships being
> > "rescued" involved the ships staying pretty close to their planned
> > courses or at least broadcasting a beacon of some sort. Definitely
> > not the case in the Vanguard.
>
> I'll have to read _Orphans_ again obviously. Did the Vanguard deviate from it's
> planned course? I can't remember the circumstances, but did this happen during the
> original mutiny?
If it didn't decelerate to stop at Proxima, it will have deviated from
its course. And any minor error in trajectory (that would have been
corrected by a working crew en route) also builds up to a rather large
distance sideways after a while.
Ross Presser
>Ogden Johnson III <o...@x-press.net> writes:
>>
>> >I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I
>> >read many, many years ago.Something like this - The first trip to
>> >a nearby star.... suspended animation.... once they got there,
>> >they found that new technology on Earth had created faster
>> >spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
>> >(centuries?). Anyone remember it?
>>
>> I do indeed, although not the title or author.
>>
>> I hope someone later in the thread has it, else it's going to
>> bother me the rest of the night.
>
>I remember that. If it's the short I remember, one of the crew died
>in route and it wasnt so "clean" as dying in cryposleep. When they
>got to their destination to a hero's welcome, their "guide" had been
>training for decades for the job, and some of that training stemmed
>from the fact that "contemperary humans" smelled FOUL to "future
>humans".
The story was "Far Centaurus", (ss) Astounding Jan '44.
Anthologized in:
Strange Ports of Call, ed. August Derleth, Pellegrini Cudahy, 1948
Men Against the Stars, ed. Martin Greenberg, Gnome, 1950
Men Against the Stars, ed. Martin Greenberg, Grayson, 1951
Destination: Universe!, Pellegrini Cudahy, 1952
Men Against the Stars, ed. Martin Greenberg, Pyramid, 1956
Strange Ports of Call, ed. August Derleth, Berkley, 1958
Great Stories of Space Travel, ed. Groff Conklin, Tempo, 1963
Quest for the Future, Ace, 1970
A Spectrum of Worlds, ed. Thomas D. Clareson, Doubleday, 1972
* Deep Space, ed. Robert Silverberg, Nelson Doubleday, 1973
The Analog Anthology #1, ed. Stanley Schmidt, Davis, 1980
The Great SF Stories 6 (1944), ed. Isaac Asimov &
Martin H. Greenberg, DAW, 1981
Starships, ed. Isaac Asimov, Martin H. Greenberg &
Charles G. Waugh, Fawcett, 1983
* this is where *I* read it :)
Highlights of the story:
[spoilers]
* Three crewmen, one awake at a time for a month at a time, with
several hundred years between shifts.
* One crewman dies during the voyage.
* A simple drug produces the suspended animation.
* A machine massages oil onto you when you wake up because your skin
is too dry to move.
* En route, one of the early FTL spaceships burns up very very close to
the STL spaceship.
* When they get there, the surviving 2 crewmen find that FTL spaceships
have preceded them and built an entire society.
* They further find that they smell too bad to be admitted into that
society.
* They buy a modern FTL ship and start exploring, looking for weird
scientific data.
* They find a "bachelor star", which is perhaps a black hole, that
sends them back into time to just after they originally left Earth.
* The narrator then gets to marry the girl he left behind.
--
Ross Presser * ross_p...@imtek.com
'"Stuck" is not a state of being unable to solve a puzzle. "Stuck" is
a state of *believing* that you are unable to solve a puzzle.'
- Andrew "Zarf" Plotkin, waxing philosophical again
JustinM
news:gg31is0g376h353oi...@4ax.com...
> >A E van Vogt, "Far Centaurus", collected in "Destination: Universe!"
> >
>
> And Cheers right back, Justin. You just saved me a lot of trouble
> getting to sleep tonight.
Glad to be of service....
That collection was one of my earliest
> reads.
One of mine too - older brother's copy, early 70s. I recently picked-up a
1973 paperback copy, currently sitting in one of my to-read piles
From my HS library - in the '50s yet. We had an excellent
> librarian, who believed in a healthy and variety filled fiction
> section. Everything from your basic HS English classics through lots
> of SF, mysteries, etc., etc., etc. A marvelous lady.
>
I never even spoke to mine - but we did have plenty of SF in the library in
the town I grew up in. I don't think I ever read it all. One of the things I
like about this group is that a lot of fiction gets mentioned that I read 25
to 30 years ago from the library, that I haven't seen since, and often don't
recall the titles of - e.g. someone mentioned the "Mercy Men" by Alan E.
Nourse the other day, Hugh Walters has come up recently - I'd forgotten his
very name - someone just mentioned James Blish's Welcome to Mars (daft book
that it was, I loved it at the time), etc.
Cheers again,
Dwight Thieme
: Mark Atwood wrote:
: >
: > Ogden Johnson III <o...@x-press.net> writes:
: > >
: > > >I am sure that this scenario *was* played out in a short story I read many, many
: > > >years ago.Something like this - The first trip to a nearby star.... suspended
: > > >animation.... once they got there, they found that new technology on Earth had
: > > >created faster spaceships, and had already been there for a long time
: > > >(centuries?). Anyone remember it?
: >
: > I remember that. If it's the short I remember, one of the crew died in
: > route and it wasnt so "clean" as dying in cryposleep. When they got to
: > their destination to a hero's welcome, their "guide" had been training
: > for decades for the job, and some of that training stemmed from the
: > fact that "contemperary humans" smelled FOUL to "future humans".
: >
: This is the tale I remember. (the part bout the smell, specially!)
: The ship was actually "discovered" while it was only halfway to the
: star, but its drive disrupted the FTL drives of the modern star
: ships. THere's a passage where the crew (which wakes up from time
: to time to make course corrections) looks out and sees a destroyed
: "alien" vessel (actually a starship enroute from earth to the
: star). They were labeled a "navigatinal hazard" and tracked, with a
: team trained in the old language and customs to greet them.
: But somehow I thought this was an Asimov tale...
FWIW, this is "Far Centaurus", a Van Vogt tale.
Ike
Tian Harter
convention in San Jose. One of the surprising things
to me was that NASA had a table. They were giving
out all sorts of cool things.
The woman behind the table was a big fan of space
exploration. She explained that she is a volunteer,
NASA just gives her stuff to give away, which she
likes doing. Along with the stuff, she was giving out
advice like how to build your own Jupiter. All you
have to do is go to paperparadise.com and find the
template, which you can then print out and build.
Great advice for kids.
The one gimme she had that struck me as on topic
for this thread was a CD called Imagine the Universe!,
which has buried in it things like quicktime movies
of the history of the universe, all boiled down to one
crisp minute. President Kennedy saying we need to
get to the moon and back by the end of the decade.
"One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind,"
with orchestral music in the background.
Looking at it last night I got that feeling that science
fact has eclipsed science fiction in it's ability to surprise.
First there was the user friendly government interface.
A nice freebie at a pleasant event is much better than
the IRS could ever do. Then there is the cosmic nature
of the info detailed at a level any elementary school child
could gee whiz over. It's a rare thing for me to get this
"tax dollars spent creating useful value" feeling.
Tian Harter
http://members.aol.com/tnharter
Bay to Breakers#: 69854, Place: 23452, Time: 2:08:03
"California isn't like anywhere else." - Tom Petty.