TR: Half Dome in a Day with Hans (long)
John Black
Half Dome in a Day 9/24/99
==================
Yesterday I climbed the Regular Route on Half Dome with Hans Florine.
The (copious) details follow; skip to the end for a summary.
=============
Half Dome in a Day (HDIAD) was a major goal for me this year, and I'd
trained hard for it. My partner of choice was Bill Wright, a strong,
solid and fast partner I'd met some 9 years ago. Bill wanted me to
climb the route before trying it in a day, so I hooked up with a good
friend and we did it in 1.5 days 10 weeks ago.
Unfortunately I became ill just after this and upon Bill's arrival was
unable to climb with him; this was a major disappointment for us both.
Bill would not be able to return to California until mid-September, so I
started looking for other partners once I felt well enough to climb again,
but the interested were unqualified and the qualified were uninterested.
Then tragedy struck and Bill broke is back in a bad fall on August 8th;
it appears he will fully recover (and is already doing very very well),
but he would certainly not be coming out to Yosemite in mid-September now.
I had resigned myself to the fact that I would not do HDIAD this year
after all, and I lamented this fact to Bill in email. I was leaving for
Thailand in less than 3 weeks. Suddenly I had the idea to hit up Hans
Florine to do the route with me.
I'd seen Hans around for 10 years, though my timidity has kept me from ever
talking to him very much. But we really started corresponding quite a
bit this year when he noticed my webpage and liked it. He had just started
a site devoted to speed climbing (www.speedclimb.com), which quickly
outstripped mine in quality.
Hans Florine is 35 years old, lives in Yosemite, and climbs very very fast.
He holds more international speed titles than any other climber in the world
and holds a strikingly large proportion of the speed records in Yosemite.
To give you an example of what "fast" is in 1999: many of us have climbed
the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral; I've climbed it about 5 times and
my fastest time is probably around 5 hours, but I've also taken about 8 hours.
Hans has done it in 37 mins. Solo.
He's also climbed El Cap three times in one day with Steve Schneider
(Nose, Lurking Fear, West Face). He's simply very very fast.
Hans had done the Regular Route on Half Dome in 2:25 just 12 days earlier.
His partner was "a bit" stronger than I am. So why would Hans want to climb
with a bumblie like me? Beats me, but he agreed, saying that he'd been
inspired by my enthusiasm, drive, and motivation. Cool!
My goal was a 10 hour time on Half Dome. Hans said we'd go under 8 hours,
but I really found that hard to believe.
==============
9/23/99
I drove to the valley, arriving at about 2pm. My plan was to solo the
Royal Arches as a warm-up for Half Dome the next day. Unfortunately the
skies were black. I had decided to take a minimum of gear with me, but
now figured I'd better bring a rope just in case I had to bail. And in
fact, it began to rain, and thunder filled the air... sigh. I went
bouldering down valley instead.
I arrived at Hans' place around 7pm and had dinner. We racked up and
discussed the details of the route. Basically the idea was that I would
lead as much of the route as I thought I could lead quickly; Hans would
simul-climb on the bottom end of the rope, using a Gri-Gri to control the
amount of rope between us. When the route got hard enough to slow me down,
Hans would lead and I would jug.
================
9/24/99
The big day.
The alarms went off at 4:15am. We had breakfast and packed up our bags.
Unfortunately Hans couldn't find his Gri-Gri and I couldn't find mine to
loan him. So instead he would just use a plate and tie knots... this
slowed us down a little during the day.
We left the car at 5:26am. Hans had soloed Half Dome AND El Cap in the
same day on 7/28; that day the approach hike took him 1:47. But I am not
in nearly the same shape as he, so our approach took about 2:15 (though
in my defense that time includes some routefinding errors in the darkness
and a couple of bathroom stops).
There was only one party on the route. What great luck! On a Friday, to
boot! My biggest regret at this point was that I'd forgotten a spare
t-shirt and the cotton thing I was wearing was soaked from the approach.
I began shiverring soon thereafter, but once the climbing began, it was
no longer a problem.
I'd led the first pitch in 17 minutes 10 weeks ago. This time I thought
I'd be a little slower because I was whipped from the approach and in much
worse shape after not training much in the last 10 weeks due to my illness.
The lead went poorly for me, getting flash-pumped within minutes and
having to downclimb a couple of times to hang on gear and shake out. The
pitch is rated 10c, but of course I was pulling on gear liberally. This
time it took 19 minutes and I was already spent after reaching the belay.
I was SUPPOSED to keep going as Hans simuled behind, but because of the
party ahead we changed plans: Hans would lead the next couple of pitches
so we could pass them quickly. (They were going for the pitch 11 bivy
so they weren't in that big of a hurry.)
Hans quickly followed pitch 1 and frenched pitch 2 in probably 5 minutes.
I followed free, preferring climbing this 5.9 pitch to jugging it, then
Hans bolted up the easy (5.8) 3rd pitch, overlapping Greg and Lisa's rope
with their consent. He then continued up the 4th pitch (5.11, A1, then 5.9)
with me simuling on the bottom just a bit to get him to the belay. I then
jugged, which sucked (because of the low-angle at the start of this
combined pitch).
Next I took over the lead again and frenched through the 5th and 6th pitches
(5.9+ cruxes but mostly easier), then did the easy pitches to the Robbins
traverse, all on simul. It was amazing: Hans was climbing on the bottom
end, managing the slack, tying and untying the knots, and I just climbed
as if I were being belayed on a 500' rope.
As a safety improvement while simuling we used a tibloc. (See
http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frascenders/ascendframe.html) A tibloc is an
ultra-lightweight ascender; slapping this on to a piece during a simulclimb
helps decrease the danger that the leader will be pulled off if the 2nd
falls because the 2nd will simply fall on the tibloc and not on the leader's
waist.
I clipped the tibloc on the rope at the top of the 6th pitch and reached
the Robbin's Traverse a short time later with Hans in hot pursuit. After
the penji Hans flew up the bolt ladder (without aiders!) and joined me.
I untied and pulled the rope through. We had done 10 pitches in 2:15, but
the harder pitches lay ahead.
Already I was getting tired. I had had almost no rest and was nearly out of
water (we each brought 1 liter). I was used to climbing continuously like
this, but not at this level of difficulty (I can climb 5.6/5.7 all day, but
5.9 A0 is a world harder). Hans sped up pitch 11, then belayed me as I
followed without jugs, free climbing and batmanning, whatever was fastest.
Then he FLEW up the 11c corner, swung into the chimney and continued up at
breakneck speed. The rope came tight and I had to start simuling behind,
but I was worried at the look of the short chimney that started this pitch,
so I yelled up that Hans might want to slap the tibloc on, and so he did.
The chimney was easy, and soon I was at the beginning of the 11c and could
not climb further with any confidence. Hans made a belay and I slapped on
the jugs, cleaned the 11c corner, and swung into the chimneys. Here is
the only really scary thing that happened all day: as I jugged Hans realized
that I was jugging on the tibloc rather than on the anchor. This was bad,
but there was really nothing to be done about it at this point. BUT, as
I jugged up to the thing I suddenly felt myself going DOWN as I heard a
ripping noise from the tibloc! Shit!!! I looked up to see a 30cm length of
rope with the sheath badly ripped up. If the rope breaks, I die. I grabbed
the 2" crack in front of me and unweighted the rope. Hans belayed me as
I freeclimbed on BIG adrenaline the next 10m to the tibloc, and then removed
it. Now, above the damaged section of rope, I resumed jugging to the belay.
I took a long rest at the belay station to collect my composure. I was
supposed to lead to Big Sandy from here, but I was somewhat frazzled. We
pulled up the rope and examined it. I decided it was probably fine and
that I would be ok continuing to use it.
Hans led up one more ropelength, finishing the 5.9 chimney section and
finishing the 13th pitch. Jugging the chimneys was the hardest part of
my day (it would have been hard to free them too though). And I arrived
at the belay exhausted, bonking, and out of water. I was still nauseous
from the minor mishap below, and I told Hans either he could continue
leading or we could take a 10 min break here. We opted for the latter
and I tried unsuccessfully to get a Powerbar down without water.
I led very slowly to Big Sandy, discovering that the largest piece we had
(#3 Camalot) BARELY fits in the double crack pitch, and this is only after
you climb up a ways! I was too tired to free this thing, so I hung on the
tipped-out camalot, hoping luck was on my side. Exhausted, I reached Big
Sandy and Hans quickly followed; it was 12:25pm, 4 hours and 10 minutes
after we'd left the ground.
I thought I'd get a rest as Hans started up the Zig Zags, but he was done
with the first pitch in about 10 minutes. We decided to caterpillar, which
means he pulls up all the remaining slack in our 60m rope, ties it off,
and then I start cleaning while he simultaneously rope-solos the next
pitch. Once I reached the belay, he dropped back the extra slack and I
put him on a normal belay. He then finished out the Zig Zags, all on our
sparse rack. I jugged up, through the bees which seem to be inhabiting
the Zig Zags right now, and reached the top of the Zags at 1:30pm.
I led off across Thank God Ledge (crawling just like last time) and up
into the squeeze chimney (facing outward! much easier!). But my helmet
prevented me from upward progress in that damn thing! So I took it off
and finished out the pitch, with Hans simuling behind. Then up the
bolt ladders and under the final 5.8 arch. I clipped the last belay as
I went by and suddenly the rope drag was horrendous! I could NOT move
and had to set an anchor and let Hans come up and then fly ahead up
the fourth class to the summit blocks, with me simuling behind. Finally,
we topped out. The time: 2:05pm, a total of 5 hours 50 minutes from the
base. Far faster than I ever DREAMED I could climb the route; of course
I didn't expect to have this strong a partner either.
We never got sun until we topped out, which was a major blessing. A nice
tourist gave us M & M's but I would have much rather had some water.
------------------
The climb is only half the battle; the car was 5000' below us. Hans brought
descent shoes whereas I did not, so down the cables we went with my feet
quickly reeling in pain.
We ran into a few of the young hotshot speedclimbers here: Timmy O'Neil
(current holder, with Dean Potter, of the Half Dome record in 2:08); Miles
Smart (who had just done the HD Direct, solo, in 11:25 just 4 days earlier);
and Cedar Wright (who had done the Arches in 1:02 car-to-car).
The descent to the base of the route usually takes about 35 mins, but my
feet began hurting so much I slowed to a crawl and didn't reach the base
until almost an hour after we started down, walking barefoot on the
hot ground.
I was SO tired. Hans and the guys (who had just soloed Snake Dike in their
approach shoes) were lounging around chatting, but I was just zoned out,
unable to get up and scoop some water out of the spring. Finally I did this,
added some iodine and waited the interminable 15 mins for it to take effect.
The descent down the slabs took almost as much time as the approach, due
to my severe foot pain from blisters, but my energy level came back up.
Both our hands hurt batmanning down the fixed lines, but eventually we
hit the last line and started running down the last bit of trail to the
Mirror Lake path and to the car, arriving at 5:17pm, less than 12 hrs after
we'd left.
The funniest part of the day was when, back at Hans' place, I unpacked my
bag to find my Gri-Gri at the bottom of the pack. I'd lugged it all the
way up there and down and never realized I'd had it... oh the irony.
--------------------
Although it was clearly cheating to have such a big gun on the climb with
me, I still feel I could have done the route with someone more my level
(like Bill) in under 12 hours. In fact, this would have been far less
physically demanding than the intense non-stop climbing Hans and I did.
Since Bill is fast on the road to recovery, perhaps we'll get a chance to
do a Hans-free ascent sooner than I think! :)
====================
Summary:
Half Dome in 5:50. Car-to-car in 11:51. Break-down:
Approach from car 2:15
Base to p10 2:15
to Sandy 4:10
to TGL 5:15
to summit 5:50
Back to base 0:55
Descent to car 1:50
=========== Spring at the base is still running ============
GeoffCJ
one word:
NICE!
Few more:
thanks for the great TR. Inspiring to read about such a phenomonal trip. Think
maybe I'll start a page for really SLOW climbers. Anybody know the record for
the slowest ascent of El Cap?, Half dome?? Leaning tower?
=>
geoff
elca...@my-deja.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
dfh...@engr.psu.edu
elca...@my-deja.com wrote:
> What does Hans charge to be dragged up a wall in a day?
I'm sure that you could contact him and he would be more than happy to
provide with information on his guiding rates. Perhaps you could hire
him the next time you try the B-Y. :)
If you are hinting that John was merely a client, you should re-read
his TR and/or search deja. He's a talented climber.
Dave.
Bill Wright
dfh...@engr.psu.edu wrote:
>
>
> elca...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > What does Hans charge to be dragged up a wall in a day?
>
> I'm sure that you could contact him and he would be more than happy to
> provide with information on his guiding rates. Perhaps you could hire
> him the next time you try the B-Y. :)
>
> If you are hinting that John was merely a client, you should re-read
> his TR and/or search deja. He's a talented climber.
I'll echo those sentiments. As stated in the TR, John led 12 of the 22
pitches. He's now climbed Half Dome twice and has led every pitch but
five of them. He is fully capable of doing Half Dome in a day with an
equal partner. And in a quarter of a day with Hans! John is a very fast
climber when he is comfortable and familiar with the terrain.
Great job, John! I wish I could have been a part of it, but with me
you'd have been so much slower...
Bill
Bob Austin
Thanks for giving us a great report...of a great climb...done in great
style. Half Dome is on my list of to-do's but I don't expect I'll be firing
it off in less than two full days.
Best Regards, Bob Austin
John Black <bla...@seal.cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:7sk5nj$7ca$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
Dan Witte
Nice TR. I read ---and watched with envy. I was one of the tourists on
top. I arrived there before my group at 10:30am to celebrate my
sister-in-laws' Birthday on top. While waiting for my party, I followed your
movements up the face and quickly noticed the speed of your progress. I was
the tourist dweeb who asked you "how many pitches" and "what route did you
climb." With the amount of gear you had it looked like you were walking off
a sport route. Anyways I was inspired by your climb. Nice job. I aspire to
do that wall one of these days.
I was short on time but before driving out of the valley the following
day I couldn't resist the gear I brought along and talked my brother and his
friend (novices) over to Manure Pile where I top roped a 5.10 route for a
few hours of fun.----Dan
John Black <bla...@seal.cs.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:7sk5nj$7ca$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu...
>
brutus_...@my-deja.com
GeoffCJ wrote:
> maybe I'll start a page for really SLOW climbers. Anybody know the
> record for the slowest ascent of El Cap?, Half dome?? Leaning tower?
Don't know about those, but I've done a few Grade Vs that required
5 or more days on the rock. Isn't that what the "V" is four?
Brutus of Slowed
PS
I seconnd the "nice"
Maybe some day I'll be able to do HDITD (Half Dome in two days)
Karl Lew
parking lot yet...
--Karl
GeoffCJ <geo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990926002309...@ng-xb1.aol.com...
> John,
>
> one word:
> NICE!
>
> Few more:
> thanks for the great TR. Inspiring to read about such a phenomonal trip.
Think
> maybe I'll start a page for really SLOW climbers. Anybody know the record
for
> the slowest ascent of El Cap?, Half dome?? Leaning tower?
> =>
> geoff
Clint Cummins
>... Think maybe I'll start a page for really SLOW climbers.
>Anybody know the record for the slowest ascent of El Cap?,
(last) one of their (first) ascents on El Cap. (It was really 2 months
continuously on the wall, without returning to the ground).
I'd come to the Valley for the weekend, and see their hanging
tents usually in the same spot as the previous weekend!
>Half dome?? Leaning tower?
I'm not so sure on those. I guess the Corbett/Wellman
ascent of Half Dome was probably one of the slowest ones.
I recall that some of my friends took about 4-5 days on Leaning
Tower one November -- it kept getting dark on them!
Have fun,
Clint Cummins
Karl Baba
There are a lot of developments and energy going into speed climbing
around here these days. I heard Potter and Tim O'Neil did El Cap, Half
Dome AND Sentinel in a day (or push?) recently.
Everybody wants to know why and how the tibloc shredded the sheath of
the rope. What happened John?
Peace
Karl
http://extra.newsguy.com/~climbing/
Yosemite Area Guiding (remove NOSPAM from the return address)
Ben Craft
>
> Everybody wants to know why and how the tibloc shredded the sheath of
> the rope. What happened John?
A few more questions.
What diameter rope (and brand) was it?
Was the core visible?
Do any of the devices work well with the ultra-skinny half ropes?
Has anybody actually compared with other light weight devices out there
(Alp"Tech, SRC, or Yo-Yo)?
Do the devices work just as well on less than vert terrain?
Ben
Vicki Portman
Karl Lew wrote in message <7so6et$8b9$1...@news.intuit.com>...
>Geoff. I'm going for the record. I haven't even gotten to the
>parking lot yet...
>--Karl
PAH! I'll see your record and break it easily - *I'm* not even getting into
the car to get to the AIRPORT yet...
Vicki
GeoffCJ
>Tower one November -- it kept getting dark on them!
>
well hell, I've got a five day ascent of leaning tower...anybody top that?
(best quote-gabbing with some guy at a belay in Toulumne, and I mention that we
did LT in five days, car to car...He laughs and asks, "where'd you park,
Fresno? " )
=>
geoff
Karl Lew
--Karl
Vicki Portman <vpor...@uptails.REMOVETHISfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7sqvfu$n9b$2...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
John Black
: On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Karl Baba wrote:
:>
:> Everybody wants to know why and how the tibloc shredded the sheath of
:> the rope. What happened John?
I want to know this too, Karl! Apparently the bouncing motion of jugging
caused the rope to slip through the tibloc, and the sharp teeth on the
tibloc ripped up the sheath.
I hear that Potter has been using a "rope-man" for the same purpose (to
protect on simul) and that its teeth are not sharp. I have never seen one
of these devices; I assume they're heavier.
: A few more questions.
: What diameter rope (and brand) was it?
:
I don't know what the diameter was; it looked thin and I asked Hans, "is
this a 9mm rope?" He said, "no." I replied, "What is the diameter then;
wait, don't tell me, I don't want to know." I could have been 10mm, but
definitely wasn't 11mm.
It was a blue 60m PMI bi-color.
: Was the core visible?
:
Maybe... if it was, just through pin-hole punctures in the sheath, but no
obvious large holes in the sheath were visible. Moreover, the core didn't
seem to be damaged in any way. I don't know if Hans plans to retire the
rope or not; we did another visual inspection back at his house, but the
decision is his.
--
john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
Ted Compton
Can you describe how the TIBLOC was rigged to the pro? For
example, was there any weight (ballast) hanging off the
TIBLOC biner? How far were you from the TIBLOC when you
started jugging? When did the sheath rip?
Ted
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Bill Wright
Ted Compton <tedcNO...@frontier.net.invalid> wrote:
> John,
> Can you describe how the TIBLOC was rigged to the pro? For
> example, was there any weight (ballast) hanging off the
> TIBLOC biner? How far were you from the TIBLOC when you
> started jugging? When did the sheath rip?
I would not use a Tibloc for simul-climbing in this manner. I think
they are not suited to the task. For a Tibloc to work, it must be
actively weighted by something clipped into its holes. If something is
not weighting the Tibloc, then the rope could conceivably move up AND
down through it. It is possible that some of the teeth of the Tibloc
will catch the sheath of the rope, but it is not guaranteed since
nothing is pressing the rope against the teeth (this function is
performed by weighting the Tiblic via clipping into the holes. This
will be confusing to those who haven't seen this device.
I think the best thing to use in this situation is active mini-
ascender. These devices have a spring so that the rope is always held
against the teeth. The Tibloc is a great, lightweight replacement for a
jumar or a prusik loop, but it does not seem suitable in the simul-
climbing situation described above.
Bill
John Black
: John,
: Can you describe how the TIBLOC was rigged to the pro? For
: example, was there any weight (ballast) hanging off the
: TIBLOC biner? How far were you from the TIBLOC when you
: started jugging? When did the sheath rip?
The tibloc was clipped with a locking D into a fixed pin. I started jugging
about 100' below the tibloc and the sheath ripped when I was about 25' below
it.
That said, I thought about what Bill said (in this thread) and I completely
agree: the tibloc is meant for the weight to be applied to the carabiner
clipped into the tibloc; it is NOT meant for clipping into an anchor and
then weight being applied to the rope.
--
john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
Ted Compton
with the rigging, not the device itself. Sounde like the
rope may have been able to slip against the teeth a little
bit with each "bounce" on the rope. 30 or 40 "bounces" and
cut sheath. Hanging some weight from the TIBLOC biner
would insure that the teeth were held against the rope thus
no slippage when loaded. See my poor diagram posted above.
This is of course supposition since a have not set up the
conditions that John described. That being said, I would
definitely use the TIBLOC to protect as described when
simulclimbing but I would not, by chioce, jug below it or
any other toothed ascender. Glad that it was just the
sheath and a learning experience instead of a tragedy.
Greg Daughtry
>The tibloc was clipped with a locking D into a fixed pin. I started
jugging
>about 100' below the tibloc and the sheath ripped when I was about 25'
below
>it.
That doesn't sound much like simul-climbing to me. You were jugging a
supposed fixed line, but the line was fixed via a tibloc. Of course the
thing will shred your rope... Only because you were bouncing very sharp
teeth on the same spot on the rope a thousand times.
I agree maybe you shouldn't jug off a rope fixed to a tibloc, but I still
have not heard a reason NOT to use it while simul-climbing. It still sounds
safe to me in that application. Once one person has to stop climbing and
start jugging, you aren't simul-climbing any more.
I have trouble understanding why you used it that way in the first place.
If you weren't simul-climbing, why did Hans place the thing on that pin?
'Greg
Portland, OR
Mad Dog
>I hear that Potter has been using a "rope-man" for the same purpose
>(to protect on simul) and that its teeth are not sharp. I have never
>seen one of these devices; I assume they're heavier.
I don't remember the numbers but I'd guess you are right. The Rope Man
and Rope Man II use a spring-loaded cam but they are very light. I'd
guess ~3 times the weight of the tiblock. Light enough that I take my
Rope Man on nearly every multipitch route. Weighs about as much as a
locker. If I remember right, it has ridges perpendicular to the rope
length, not really teeth.
Mad "I guess the details just evaded me" Dog
maohai huang
: John Black wrote:
:
: >I hear that Potter has been using a "rope-man" for the same purpose
: The Rope Man
: and Rope Man II use a spring-loaded cam but they are very light. I'd
: guess ~3 times the weight of the tiblock.
: If I remember right, it has ridges perpendicular to the rope
: length, not really teeth.
Ropeman II is heavier than Ropeman ( which I have ) because the II uses
toothed steel cam rather than the ridges made of aluminum. The Al cam
wears out too quickly I think. Just after several pitches you will see.
Clyde compared the Ropeman and the Tibloc a month or two ago.
John Black
: I agree maybe you shouldn't jug off a rope fixed to a tibloc, but I still
: have not heard a reason NOT to use it while simul-climbing. It still sounds
: safe to me in that application. Once one person has to stop climbing and
: start jugging, you aren't simul-climbing any more.
:
Note that the sheath-rip occur all at once, not gradually as I jugged.
So I could imagine that a simulclimbing fall could generate this one bounce
at the same bad angle and cause the same slippage. Note that while I was
jugging, it was not a big deal: it ripped the sheath and the rope came tight
against the belay anchor. But on a simulclimbing fall it would be a bad
thing: the second would rip the sheath and then come tight on the leader's
waist.
Bad.
: I have trouble understanding why you used it that way in the first place.
: If you weren't simul-climbing, why did Hans place the thing on that pin?
:
I guess my TR wasn't clear on this: we WERE simulclimbing with me on the
bottom. But I reached an 11c section and couldn't confidently continue
on the bottom end. Hans put this thing on while I was on more moderate
ground lower down, but when I hit the 11c I said I'd jug, so he put a belay
anchor in and I started jugging... on the tibloc.
--
john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
Vicki Portman
Karl Lew wrote
>I would concede...but I haven't gotten around to it?
Hell, I would accept your concession, but it's taken me so long to find your
post that I've kind of forgotten the point of debate. When it gradually
comes back to me, I shall give lengthy consideration to a slow acceptance.
Vicki
Jeremy Pulcifer
yet...;-( )
Jeremy Pulcifer
Data Architect/Database Developer
Advanced Systems International
25300 Telegraph Rd. Suite# 455
Southfield, MI 48075
(248) 263-0000 ext. 104
jpul...@advsysintl.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Lew [SMTP:ka...@climerware.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 12:38 PM
> To: rec.cl...@list.deja.com
> Subject: Re: TR: Half Dome in a Day with Hans (long)
>
> Message from the Deja.com forum:
> rec.climbing
> Your subscription is set to individual email delivery
> >
> Geoff. I'm going for the record. I haven't even gotten to the
> parking lot yet...
> --Karl
>
>
> GeoffCJ <geo...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990926002309...@ng-xb1.aol.com...
> > John,
> >
> > one word:
> > NICE!
> >
> > Few more:
> > thanks for the great TR. Inspiring to read about such a phenomonal trip.
> Think
> > maybe I'll start a page for really SLOW climbers. Anybody know the
> record
> for
> > the slowest ascent of El Cap?, Half dome?? Leaning tower?
> > =>
> > geoff
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Deja.com: Before you buy.
> http://www.deja.com/
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Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Dingus Milktoast
Greg Daughtry wrote:
>
> That doesn't sound much like simul-climbing to me. You were jugging a
> supposed fixed line, but the line was fixed via a tibloc. Of course the
> thing will shred your rope... Only because you were bouncing very sharp
> teeth on the same spot on the rope a thousand times.
>
> I agree maybe you shouldn't jug off a rope fixed to a tibloc, but I still
> have not heard a reason NOT to use it while simul-climbing.
I don't get it. Your theory is that a bunch of small bounces will (or perhaps
could) shred a rope, but one HUGE bounce (say the 2nd falls with 5 feet of slack
in the rope) is no problemo? Personally, if the device has even a remote chance
of shredding a rope, it's not for me (in this application).
DMT
Karl Lew
--Karl "with all due respect"
Vicki Portman <vpor...@uptails.REMOVETHISfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7svgl7$6rb$2...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Greg Daughtry
and expect that it wouldn't shred your rope.
My theory is that it might be better to shred the sheath of a rope than fall
with 5 feet of slack on your unsuspecting leader and take her for a 100ft
death ride.
My theory is also that the stronger climber should be climbing second, and
both should be well within their abilities.
Certainly shredding your rope is a problemo, but I see this application as
no different than a common practice in alpine climbing. Technical sections
are fixed with ropes, and people climb while self belaying with ascenders on
the rope.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Dingus Milktoast wrote in message <37F376EA...@midtown.net>...
Ben Craft
On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
> My theory is also that the stronger climber should be climbing second, and
> both should be well within their abilities.
So does that mean that one person will end up leading the entire route?
Dingus Milktoast
Greg Daughtry wrote:
> My theory is that you would never fix a rope for jugging using ascenders,
> and expect that it wouldn't shred your rope.
OK. Not necesarily true, but I'll accept the premise. While I personally
wouldn't jug like that, I know people who jug haul lines attached to their Wall
Hauler, which is tantamount to the same thing.
> My theory is that it might be better to shred the sheath of a rope than fall
> with 5 feet of slack on your unsuspecting leader and take her for a 100ft
> death ride.
My theory is the 2nd MUST NOT fall while simulclimbing. My secondary theory is
that if mild jugging tension will shred a sheath, a bigger fall will pull the
sheath entirely resulting in tension, perhaps a lot of tension, on the leader.
Then the leader is taking a 100 foot death fall on a damaged rope, perhaps
goodbye to both of them.
> My theory is also that the stronger climber should be climbing second, and
> both should be well within their abilities.
I agree entirely with this.
> Certainly shredding your rope is a problemo, but I see this application as
> no different than a common practice in alpine climbing. Technical sections
> are fixed with ropes, and people climb while self belaying with ascenders on
> the rope.
I see a huge difference between self-belaying up a steep snow slope on a fixed
line and simul-climbing on a vertical rock wall with a Tibloc to belay both
climbers, but that's just me. I simul-climb from time to time, esp. in the
alpine rock environment. I will not be using a Tibloc for belay purposes when
doing so. In my younger years I used to use a Jumar for a self belay on top
rope. I don't do that anymore either.
What about Blanchard's device? I haven't used one, so I don't know how much
tension is required to move the rope through the device and I guess it's quite a
bit heavier than a Tibloc, but at least it wouldn't shred your rope.
DMT
Ted Compton
being blamed when it is very likely the way that the system
was rigged that caused the sheath failure. The way the
system was rigged (with no ballast weight hanging from the
TIBLOC biner) allows the teeth of the TIBLOC to drag
against the rope for a short distance before they fully
engage/bite. This dragging can seriously tear at the
threads of the sheath (read recent threads about not using
the TIBLOC as a rap backup). 30 or 40 iterations of this
"dragging/tearing" (from jugging 75') could forseeably
damage a sheath to the point that body weight could cause
it to fail. On the other hand, 30 or 40 bounces with the
teeth properly "set" in the rope would cause no concern
about rope failure. In fact this is something that I am
sure many of us put our ropes through regularly. Try
hanging from your ascender (in the same spot on the rope)
and working at cleaning a stuck cam. I would guess that
you could generate 50 to 100 "bounces" and some pretty hard
ones if you were getting irate at you partner for loosing
your cam. Anyway, my point is that toothed ascenders are
not slowly destroying all our ropes and that properly
rigged, the TIBLOC won't either.
Sorry So Long.
Ted(collector of you dangerous toothed ascenders)Compton.
Greg Daughtry
simul-climbing.
What difference does it make if the same person is leading the entire time
you are simulclimbing? The stronger climber should be below, because you
need to minimize the chances of falling on the leader and pulling them off.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Ben Craft wrote in message ...
>
>On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
>> My theory is also that the stronger climber should be climbing second,
and
>> both should be well within their abilities.
>
Greg Daughtry
>Greg Daughtry wrote:
-snip
>> My theory is that it might be better to shred the sheath of a rope than
fall
>> with 5 feet of slack on your unsuspecting leader and take her for a 100ft
>> death ride.
>
>My theory is the 2nd MUST NOT fall while simulclimbing. My secondary theory
is
>that if mild jugging tension will shred a sheath, a bigger fall will pull
the
>sheath entirely resulting in tension, perhaps a lot of tension, on the
leader.
>Then the leader is taking a 100 foot death fall on a damaged rope, perhaps
>goodbye to both of them.
Agreed. The 2nd must not fall. However if he does, in my opinion it would
be better to fall on a tibloc than to fall on the leader. I just don't see
how 1 fall will tear the sheath, especially if the second (being the
stronger climber) is diligent and doesn't let slack come into the system.
It looks the same as a self belay on a fixed rope to me.
-snip
>> Certainly shredding your rope is a problemo, but I see this application
as
>> no different than a common practice in alpine climbing. Technical
sections
>> are fixed with ropes, and people climb while self belaying with ascenders
on
>> the rope.
>
>I see a huge difference between self-belaying up a steep snow slope on a
fixed
>line and simul-climbing on a vertical rock wall with a Tibloc to belay both
You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT expect the tibloc to belay BOTH climbers. The
tibloc would ONLY protect the second. Indirectly it protects the leader by
preventing the leader from having to arrest the fall of the second.
If the leader falls, the rope slides free through the tibloc and the second
will have to arrest the fall.
>climbers, but that's just me. I simul-climb from time to time, esp. in the
>alpine rock environment. I will not be using a Tibloc for belay purposes
when
>doing so. In my younger years I used to use a Jumar for a self belay on top
>rope. I don't do that anymore either.
Agreed, I would not use a jumar for self belay on top-rope either. We are
talking about simul-climbing. I suppose that once you've made the decision
to simul-climb, you have weighed the gravity of that decision and it's
consequences. I liken simul-climbing as only a hair bit safer than soloing,
and I wouldn't simul-climb on any terrain that I wouldn't consider soloing.
I don't do much simul-climbing, and I don't do much soloing because I'm not
comfortable with it. If I were simul-climbing, though, and I were the
weaker climber on lead, I would still feel better w/ a tibloc as a running
belay for the second than without. My biggest fear is being yanked off by
the second if a hold snaps.
'Greg
Portland, OR
Dan Goodman
> Karl Lew wrote
> >I would concede...but I haven't gotten around to it?
>
> Hell, I would accept your concession, but it's taken me so long to find your
> post that I've kind of forgotten the point of debate. When it gradually
> comes back to me, I shall give lengthy consideration to a slow acceptance.
>
I intend to take a look into this sometime soon, and maybe get around to doing
something about it real soon now.
Dan Goodman
Ben Craft
On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
> We are talking about simul-climbing. My comments ONLY refer to
> simul-climbing.
>
> What difference does it make if the same person is leading the entire time
> you are simulclimbing? The stronger climber should be below, because you
> need to minimize the chances of falling on the leader and pulling them off.
Well if you've done alot of simuclimbing, you would know that seconding
sucks! It's much more taxing than being 1st.
Ben
Greg Daughtry
It would also suck for the 1st to have to hold a fall of the 2nd, no?
'Greg
Portland, OR
Ben Craft wrote in message ...
John Black
: You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT expect the tibloc to belay BOTH climbers. The
: tibloc would ONLY protect the second. Indirectly it protects the leader by
: preventing the leader from having to arrest the fall of the second.
Moreover it's important that when the leader places the tibloc he should
also place another piece soon thereafter: the leader should NOT fall on
the tibloc! It has a sharp edge that bending a rope over (in a leader
fall) would not be advisable.
: I liken simul-climbing as only a hair bit safer than soloing,
: and I wouldn't simul-climb on any terrain that I wouldn't consider soloing.
:
Many people believe that simul-climbing (responsibly done) is way safer
than soloing. The risk usually lies in the fact that the leader is trying
to stretch out the rack and therefore is taking big runouts.
I once hit Croft up regarding his speed forays on to the Nose with Schultz
(back in 1990 before the record was with Hans). I asked him why he always
led rather than followed on the Nose (the conventional wisdom being that the
stronger climber should be on the bottom end). He told me leading was much
harder and gave me a long list of convincing reasons why this was true.
Of course I've forgotten them now, 9 years later. But I remember one still:
"If you're seconding a hard spot you can just call for a top-rope any time
you like."
I remember reading about the record 4:22 Florine-Croft ascent of the Nose.
Hans said something like this: "I'd call for belay on the bottom end and
Peter would say, 'Ok, you're on belay!' I don't know if he put an anchor
or just found a good hand-jam."
There are plenty of examples of falls while simul-climbing, even by the
big names. I remember Puhvel took a fall while seconding on the Salathe
(with Florine in the lead): Puhvel was pulling on a piece Florine had
placed and it came out, pulling Hans down for a 30' ride.
Recently Timmy O'Neil and Dean Potter went after the Nose record, but
Timmy took a 100'er and they decided to bail.
--
john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
Ted Compton
wouldn't consider soloing
Then don't waste time with a rope and pro. Just solo.
Ted(I think simul climbing is MUCH safer than
soloing)Compton.
Dave Kennedy
>
> I remember reading about the record 4:22 Florine-Croft ascent of the
Nose.
> Hans said something like this: "I'd call for belay on the bottom end
and
> Peter would say, 'Ok, you're on belay!' I don't know if he put an
anchor
> or just found a good hand-jam."
Dave Shultz once told me that on one of his El Cap speed days with
Croft, he started getting pumped and figured he hang on the next
piece. Unfortunately Croft hadn't bothered placing anything.
> Recently Timmy O'Neil and Dean Potter went after the Nose record, but
> Timmy took a 100'er and they decided to bail.
Wow! I found Potter's comment that he considered the simul-climbing
to be more dangerous than the soloing really wild. These guys are
sure willing to go all out.
Dave
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ted Compton
nature of simul climbing. In fact it changes it a lot.
The leader can be the better climber. And simul climbing
can be "safely" used in a much broader range of
circumstances. This combined with Hans and John's intended
use of the GriGri to manage the rope between the two simul
climbers (great idea) makes for what I would consider a
completely new climbing method. These "quick" techniques
can be valuable on climbs other than HDIAD type walls.
But, as the main point of this thread (OK maybe the
secondary point) points out, new techniques can have bugs
and bugs in climbing can be really bad so be careful.
Thanks for sharing John.
Ted Compton
Ben Craft
them alot.
If I'm simuclimbing a route, it will be with a partner that I can swap
leads. I'd never drag someone up.
#######
#####\_O -Ben Craft-
####/\/>
#### /"
### \
On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
Ted Compton
simul-climbing to be more dangerous than the soloing really
wild. These guys are sure willing to go all out.
Dave,
Where/when did Potter say this?
Ted
Greg Daughtry
debate requires you to back up your points with something other than
posturing and drivel.
I also don't run for the summit in an electrical storm either, so we differ
in a couple of respects. Yet another example of your shining, vast
experience eh?
Ben Craft wrote in message ...
>It would sure suck to debate simuclimbing techniques if you don't practice
>them alot.
If you see a flaw in my logic, point it out. Don't play infantile
finger-pointing games. The tibloc has only been on the market a few months.
Has anyone practised these techniques "alot?"
>
>If I'm simuclimbing a route, it will be with a partner that I can swap
>leads. I'd never drag someone up.
Good for you. Now tell us again how Hans was not "dragging" up John, who
chose to jug past 11c... Are you arguing that Hans has limited experience
simul-climbing and doesn't know what he was doing? I guess he hasn't
practised his techniques alot, huh? I know, you were talking about me...
'Greg
Portland, OR
Ben Craft
On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
>
> in a couple of respects. Yet another example of your shining, vast
> experience eh?
mountain adventures posted here.
>
> If you see a flaw in my logic, point it out. Don't play infantile
> finger-pointing games. The tibloc has only been on the market a few months.
> Has anyone practised these techniques "alot?"
Here's the Flaws.
Simuclimbing can get tiring real quick. Expecting one person to blast a
long route is unrealistic for most of us, or maybe just me. That quick
few minutes of rest you get when you run out of gear and bring the second
up and let him take off is a life saver.
Simuclimbing is fairly dangerous and the 2 climbers doing it should
be pretty matched for the route. Just because one is better doesn't mean
it will be safer or faster to put him second.
As for Tribloc.... I asked a bunch of questions and got few of them
answered. Potter uses a RopeManII, and so am I. Is it any good? Who
knows. I'll try it a few times and decide later. Maybe it's just another
head game to keep you going. Kinda like placing a Loweball. You don't
know if it's good or not, but your gonna go anyways.
> >
> >If I'm simuclimbing a route, it will be with a partner that I can swap
> >leads. I'd never drag someone up.
>
> Good for you. Now tell us again how Hans was not "dragging" up John, who
> chose to jug past 11c... Are you arguing that Hans has limited experience
> simul-climbing and doesn't know what he was doing? I guess he hasn't
> practised his techniques alot, huh? I know, you were talking about me...
Hans and john can do what ever they want. I think it's cool John got to
get out with the guy since it's been a dream of his for a while.
My person rule is if I can't or my partner can't lead the crux than we
are not in simuclimbing mode and will just pitch the route out.
Ben
Greg Daughtry
- another derisive comment highlighting Ben's shameless self-promotion and
posing snipped
>Here's the Flaws.
>Simuclimbing can get tiring real quick. Expecting one person to blast a
>long route is unrealistic for most of us, or maybe just me. That quick
>few minutes of rest you get when you run out of gear and bring the second
>up and let him take off is a life saver.
You have a valid point. I agree with you that swinging leads gives valuable
rest time. However, you mention below that both climbers should be well
matched for the route. I said before that I felt that I wouldn't
simul-climb a route that I would not solo for this exact reason. If you
couldn't fire the whole thing, and stopping to rest is a dangerous
proposition for whatever reason (blow your record, or you need to be off
before dark) then this might not be the route for you.
Accepting your point, though it is definitely safer for the weaker climber
to lead the "crux" pitches and minimize the chances of falling and pulling
off the leader, especially if you are on a route where fatigue is a factor.
It is also possible to arrange the pitches and swing leads so that this can
be done.
>Simuclimbing is fairly dangerous and the 2 climbers doing it should
>be pretty matched for the route. Just because one is better doesn't mean
This is exactly what I have said before. You cannot eliminate objective
hazards. The subjective ones though, you damn well better pay attention to.
>it will be safer or faster to put him second.
In the case where 2 climbers have undertaken a route that is above one of
their free climbing abilities, it most certainly is safer to put him first,
or stop and climb it in pitches. Had they employed that logic, there would
probably not been any incidence of the sheath being cut.
>
>As for Tribloc.... I asked a bunch of questions and got few of them
>answered. Potter uses a RopeManII, and so am I. Is it any good? Who
You, Potter, Hans, John, and I can all do what we want. My conjecture is
that had Hans placed a Ropeman II instead of the Tibloc, the outcome would
have been the same, and it is not fair to down-spray the Tibloc for a
situation that was clearly operator error.
It still looks to me as though this is a pretty good application for the
Tibloc, and I would now simul-climb in some limited situations where I would
not before. Not that I have nearly the opportunities to do so that you
folks in California have...
'Greg
Portland, OR
Greg Daughtry
>I guess my TR wasn't clear on this: we WERE simulclimbing with me on the
>bottom. But I reached an 11c section and couldn't confidently continue
>on the bottom end. Hans put this thing on while I was on more moderate
>ground lower down, but when I hit the 11c I said I'd jug, so he put a belay
>anchor in and I started jugging... on the tibloc.
Perhaps the failure mode was like this:
Most likely you gradually weighted the rope fixed to the Tibloc. The teeth
bite, but bite such that the sheath does not have a lot of tension. The
further you are away from the tibloc, the more of you weight is supported by
the core of the rope. As you jug closer and closer to the tibloc, the
sheath will come under more and more tension. The teeth bit into a certain
pattern of the braid of the sheath when it wasn't taught. As you got closer
to the Tibloc, the sheath would have been pulled across the teeth more and
more. Easily half the diameter of the rope at the Tibloc would have been
across the teeth and jugging close to the device would cause the sheath to
rip, probably right below the last row of teeth on the Tibloc.
That might explain why you didn't see any wear marks, and it looked as
though it had ripped all at once.
What do you think?
'Greg
Portland, OR
Duncan Watson
I can beat both of you. I have actually travelled east from NYC to
Munich. I am moving so slowly that I am farther away than last year.
-Duncan
On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 22:37:39 +0100, "Vicki Portman"
<vpor...@uptails.REMOVETHISfreeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Karl Lew wrote in message <7so6et$8b9$1...@news.intuit.com>...
>>Geoff. I'm going for the record. I haven't even gotten to the
>>parking lot yet...
>>--Karl
>
>
>PAH! I'll see your record and break it easily - *I'm* not even getting into
>the car to get to the AIRPORT yet...
>
>Vicki
>
>
----
Once dj...@yahoo.com (still)
now cli...@ioSPAMONTOAST.com
Once a Gunky now a Munchen
Dave Kennedy
> Where/when did Potter say this?
Well I can't say with certainty that he has never said this, but the
statement I made was an absolute screw-up. That will teach me to try and
quote from something I skimmed weeks earlier.
What I had remembered was the a quote from the Climbing Mag article,
"The simulclimbing method is not safe." And failed to correctly
remember the next sentence, "Riskier still is the solo technique..."
But while we are on the subject, when reading the simul method,
-the team simulclimbs, each carrying a locking biner full of Aliens,
cam hooks on each aider. The leader carries free biners and quickdraws
but almost never leaving a cam as pro and clipping only the fixed gear.
I almost start to believe that the soloing is less dangerous,
since you don't have to worry about a partner slip-up.
I think this is amazing stuff, hell I crap may pants every time
I see the picture of him soloing the zig-zags.
Sorry to make such a lame statement before.
Dan Goodman
> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Greg Daughtry wrote:
> > My theory is also that the stronger climber should be climbing second, and
> > both should be well within their abilities.
>
> So does that mean that one person will end up leading the entire route?
If, and only if, you are going to simul-climb the whole route.
Even if you were going to simul-climb the entire route, if various pitches were
of vastly different ability, and/or the difference in ability of the two
climbers was minimal, you could reverse the climbing order on the easier
pitches.
Does anybody every simul-climb an entire lengthy route?
Dan Goodman
maohai huang
Ben Craft (bcr...@rigel.oac.uci.edu) wrote:
: Simuclimbing can get tiring real quick. Expecting one person to blast a
: long route is unrealistic for most of us, or maybe just me. That quick
: few minutes of rest you get when you run out of gear and bring the second
: up and let him take off is a life saver.
Wait, even the leader is the same person all the time, both the leader
and the seconder will have time to rest : the leader has it before gears
are changed hands; the seconder after it. ( before the rope between them
becomes tight again )
plus you can always slow down if you feel the pace is cutting your throat.
Eric D. Coomer
Dan Goodman <dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote in message
> Does anybody every simul-climb an entire lengthy route?
Uh... does the regular route on Half Dome qualify as an entire lengthy
route?
Cheers
Eric
John Black
: Dan Goodman <dan_g...@pepboysHATESSPAM.com> wrote in message
:> Does anybody every simul-climb an entire lengthy route?
: Uh... does the regular route on Half Dome qualify as an entire lengthy
: route?
It got climbed today in one pitch in 1:53 (new record); Florine and Herson.
--
john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
Robert Fonda
--
r.f
"Gravity is a harsh mistress!" The Tic
"So is terra firma" r.f
Karl Lew <ka...@climerware.com> wrote in message
news:7t00l3$3kq$1...@news.intuit.com...
> Thtptttt(TM)
> --Karl "with all due respect"
>
> Vicki Portman <vpor...@uptails.REMOVETHISfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message
> news:7svgl7$6rb$2...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Karl Lew wrote
> > >I would concede...but I haven't gotten around to it?
> >
> >
> > Hell, I would accept your concession, but it's taken me so long to find
> your
> > post that I've kind of forgotten the point of debate. When it gradually
> > comes back to me, I shall give lengthy consideration to a slow
acceptance.
> >
> > Vicki
> >
> >
>
>
Jeremy Pulcifer
to be a better choice (it's heavier, but not by much). YMMV, of course, and
simul-stuff isn't in my realm of expertise...
Jeremy Pulcifer
Data Architect/Database Developer
Advanced Systems International
25300 Telegraph Rd. Suite# 455
Southfield, MI 48075
(248) 263-0000 ext. 104
jpul...@advsysintl.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Black [SMTP:bla...@seal.cs.ucdavis.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 12:46 PM
> To: rec.cl...@list.deja.com
> Subject: Re: TR: Half Dome in a Day with Hans (long)
>
> Message from the Deja.com forum:
> rec.climbing
> Your subscription is set to individual email delivery
> >
> Ben Craft <bcr...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
> : On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Karl Baba wrote:
> :>
> :> Everybody wants to know why and how the tibloc shredded the sheath of
> :> the rope. What happened John?
> :
> I want to know this too, Karl! Apparently the bouncing motion of jugging
> caused the rope to slip through the tibloc, and the sharp teeth on the
> tibloc ripped up the sheath.
>
> I hear that Potter has been using a "rope-man" for the same purpose (to
> protect on simul) and that its teeth are not sharp. I have never seen one
> of these devices; I assume they're heavier.
>
> : A few more questions.
> : What diameter rope (and brand) was it?
> :
> I don't know what the diameter was; it looked thin and I asked Hans, "is
> this a 9mm rope?" He said, "no." I replied, "What is the diameter then;
> wait, don't tell me, I don't want to know." I could have been 10mm, but
> definitely wasn't 11mm.
>
> It was a blue 60m PMI bi-color.
>
> : Was the core visible?
> :
> Maybe... if it was, just through pin-hole punctures in the sheath, but no
> obvious large holes in the sheath were visible. Moreover, the core didn't
> seem to be damaged in any way. I don't know if Hans plans to retire the
> rope or not; we did another visual inspection back at his house, but the
> decision is his.
>
> --
> john// (http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~blackj)
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
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