Best joystick for heli sims? revisted
Bill Heigh
for a pc. I thought I'd seen them before, but now I'm wondering if I was
thinking of a dual com port card, which are (used to be, anyway) a
dime-a-dozen.
I tried adding a second sound card that has a game port on it but my W95
setup didn't like having two joysticks hooked up. (I'm lucky enough to have
an extra sound card AND an extra joystick laying around)
I've had a couple of sales people tell me they've never heard of dual
gameport cards before, but I thought they used to be fairly common.
However I think I hit upon an even better solution. I've found that they
make some gampad style controllers for the pc now and some of those have
some pretty fancy features like cordless and force feedback. But the
interesting part for me are the ones with dual analog joysticks!
They should simulate the radio quite well I would think, and they're about
as cheap as a joystick anyways. Unfortunately WallyWorld was out of them but
when they restock, I should be in business!
"Colin Dyckes" <co...@x-dyckes.com> wrote in message
news:lP436.45909$_h.293388@NewsReader...
> Bill,
>
> If you want this to be even vaguely similar to flying a real RC
> helicopter then you need TWO dual-axis joysticks and a sim that has a
> 'software radio' taking its inputs from the standard pc dual joystick
> port.
>
> The sticks are configured (in a setup called 'Mode 2') with the left
> hand stick controlling pitch and throttle mixed by the 'software radio'
> on the left hand forward/backward axis and tail-rotor on the left hand
> left/right axis. The right hand joystick would control left/right cyclic
> by left/right movement and forward/backward cyclic by forward/backward
> movement.
>
> Having a 3-axis stick will only help you with tail-rotor control if you
> want a non-RC compatible setup.
>
> --
> Colin
>
> See my website at www.dyckes.com.
> To reply by email, remove the x- from my email address
>
> "Bill Heigh" <b-h...@midstatecoop.com> wrote in message
> news:newscache$zqbc6g$n08$1...@news.empnet.com...
> > How many axis do you need to really simulate? I understand that to
> really
> > get beyond forward flight with RC's you need a 5-channel radio
> controller,
> > but then you program them and combine throttle with collective? A bit
> > confusing for an armchair beginner.
> >
> > I'm an avid PC gamer who loves heli simulator games. I'm now tiring of
> the
> > shootemup stuff and ready for something more. It's realatively easy to
> > decide that sims are the best way to get your feet wet. And I'm sure
> once I
> > get some hours behind me it will make more sense what's happening with
> the
> > controls.
> >
> > I've downloaded FMS and given it a whirl, but I'm not really sure how
> I
> > should set up a dual-axis joystick with throttle control. I guess I
> should
> > really RTFM, ay? : )
> >
> > I'm just wondering if I should upgrade to one of the newer 3D
> joysticks with
> > a third axis. Do any of you have thoughts on what works well for
> learning as
> > far as which joysticks work best? Or is it more like, shut up and just
> fly?
> >
> > --
> > remove the dashes to email me
> >
> >
>
--
Rremove the "ns" in email when responding, and
please respond to email as well as group, thx.
reckles...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>I've done some looking around and can't seem to find a dual gameport card
>for a pc. I thought I'd seen them before, but now I'm wondering if I was
>thinking of a dual com port card, which are (used to be, anyway) a
>dime-a-dozen.
>
>I tried adding a second sound card that has a game port on it but my W95
>setup didn't like having two joysticks hooked up. (I'm lucky enough to have
>an extra sound card AND an extra joystick laying around)
>
>I've had a couple of sales people tell me they've never heard of dual
>gameport cards before, but I thought they used to be fairly common.
>
The 15 pin games port supports two joysticks. In the past you could
buy a joystick with the 15 pin connector which had another 9 pin
connector come off it for the purpose of plugging in a second
joystick. Anyway here is the pinouts for the games port.
>However I think I hit upon an even better solution. I've found that they
>make some gampad style controllers for the pc now and some of those have
>some pretty fancy features like cordless and force feedback. But the
>interesting part for me are the ones with dual analog joysticks!
>
>They should simulate the radio quite well I would think, and they're about
>as cheap as a joystick anyways. Unfortunately WallyWorld was out of them but
>when they restock, I should be in business!
>
What ever
Reckless Loony
More reckless and loonier than ever !!
Timothy Morris
"Bill Heigh" <bhei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a4e...@news.bendnet.com...
> I've done some looking around and can't seem to find a dual gameport card
> for a pc. I thought I'd seen them before, but now I'm wondering if I was
> thinking of a dual com port card, which are (used to be, anyway) a
> dime-a-dozen.
>
> I tried adding a second sound card that has a game port on it but my W95
> setup didn't like having two joysticks hooked up. (I'm lucky enough to
have
> an extra sound card AND an extra joystick laying around)
>
> I've had a couple of sales people tell me they've never heard of dual
> gameport cards before, but I thought they used to be fairly common.
>
> However I think I hit upon an even better solution. I've found that they
> make some gampad style controllers for the pc now and some of those have
> some pretty fancy features like cordless and force feedback. But the
> interesting part for me are the ones with dual analog joysticks!
>
> They should simulate the radio quite well I would think, and they're about
> as cheap as a joystick anyways. Unfortunately WallyWorld was out of them
but
> when they restock, I should be in business!
>
>
control you need for flying RC applications with a PC joystick. If you have
the cash then get yourself a copy of Realflight Generation 2 with the
controller box. Unlike the transmitter interface you can use the controller
box with other sims as the need takes you as it actually plugs into a
joystick port. the box is basically an RC transmitter without the
electronics. You'll get hooked, and want to start RC for real, believe me,
and then you'll ned a proper controller anyway!
Tim.
Bill Heigh
reason.
I thought there would be a way to do that, since one of the few things I
know about electronics is that there's way more pins than there are things
that send them signals.
Which brings up another question on my part. Is there a website or doc out
there which would steer me in the right direction to learn more about
electronics and hardware? I know a little, but I suspect it's like
everything else, a little knowledge can sometimes do a lot of damage in a
very short amount of time! : )
<reckles...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a4eee50...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Bill Heigh
worthy substitute for shelling out the 400 clams (+ or -) for a nice
xmitter?
Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with spending the money. I just want to be
prepared. And I've heard the warnings about how relentless the sport can be
on newbies.
Btw, I'm thinking of a Raptor 30 with a Futaba 8H.... something er other.
: ) But I must say the Ergo 60 is tempting too. Comments?
"Timothy Morris" <ma...@timothy-morris.org.us> wrote in message
news:t4tscdq...@corp.supernews.com...
reckles...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>Interesting Reckless, however the 'pinout' picture did not make it for some
>reason.
>
Actually it did get sent I checked the NG and it is there. I sent it
via free agent and it split the attachment off as a separate post.
Well it gave me the opportunity to try out free agent for posting of
binaries even though it did not come out the way that I had in mind.
>I thought there would be a way to do that, since one of the few things I
>know about electronics is that there's way more pins than there are things
>that send them signals.
>
>Which brings up another question on my part. Is there a website or doc out
>there which would steer me in the right direction to learn more about
>electronics and hardware?
This is somewhat rather open in that it depends on what part of
electronics do you wish to know and to what level? These days this
might seem somewhat old fashioned but your local public library will
have a number of books dealing with electronics, which you would be
able to take out on loan. Then of coarse there are varies electronic
courses run at the colleges that you could enroll in, you may then
even wish to go all the way to university and become an electronics
engineer -:).
>I know a little, but I suspect it's like
>everything else, a little knowledge can sometimes do a lot of damage in a
>very short amount of time! : )
This is true but if your intention is to connect up two joysticks up
to the games port and you can solder then a bit of wiring and viola
it's done.
reckles...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>Then are you suggesting that the gamepad style of dual joysticks is not a
>worthy substitute for shelling out the 400 clams (+ or -) for a nice
>xmitter?
>
If that game pad style is made the same as the way those TV game
consoles then be advised some of those consoles use switch contacts
not pots on the sticks.
>Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with spending the money. I just want to be
>prepared. And I've heard the warnings about how relentless the sport can be
>on newbies.
>
The sport is not relentless on the newbies so much as the old plank
flying codgers who don't want to know or see an RC heli on their fixed
wing flying field and then there are those just plain don't like you
because your you or your hair is not parted the correct way.
>Btw, I'm thinking of a Raptor 30 with a Futaba 8H.... something er other.
> : ) But I must say the Ergo 60 is tempting too. Comments?
>
Ah o.k. Here are a few. The bigger they are the more they cost. The
bigger they are the harder they hit, the bigger the mess. The bigger
it is the more it will scare you as it comes at you. -:)
Seriously if the cost of the sixty doesn't faze you and your happy
with the associated costs of repair and maintenance then get a sixty,
else 30 or a 50. The heli you get should depend on parts availability
and what the majority of others are flying, the reason for getting
what others is flying is that they already know what quirks or
shortcomings (flaw) that particular heli has and can advise you about
it so that you don't get any surprises. For e.g. the Ergo 30. Binding
of rotor head if chasing too much pitch, found out about that little
number by crash testing. Top of clutch bell wearing out quickly in
bearing, tail belt going loose with standard boom clamp. Brass bush
wearing out prematurely, one-way bearing locking up, etc. And for the
Raptor 30 the big one is clutch breakage.
Steve Comninos
with a 3-axis analog joystick. Problem is, you have to leave one of the
functions out (since you dont have a 4th axis), and the layout doesn't
resemble a real transmitter at all. I later purchased the Logitech Wingman
from a local store and believe this to be as close as it gets given a free
simulator and less than $40 (Canadian) [I'm sure there are many other
similar controllers -- this happened to be the one that I found at the
store]. The Wingman has 2 analog sticks (each 2 axis), plus an additional
"slider" analog control (not to mention something like 9 buttons, rumble,
and a digital 8-position control). [ it almost looks like the dual-shock
controllers the playstation has ]. I only use the 2 analog sticks with
FMS, and have them setup to control the heli like described in one of the
other replies (like a mode 2 transmitter). I've been told that the
"physics" are not very real at all in this simulator, but it can be used to
familiarize yourself with the basic flight controls... so i guess it just
gives you a basic introductory "feel" of what it is like to control one.
From what I saw at the local hobby shop, on an actual transmitter, the left
stick up/down (throttle + collective) does not move back to "neutral"
position when you let it go (both sticks always do on the Wingman
controller).
Now, I wonder how different a commercial simulator would be (not taking into
account the graphics)...
BTW: The Wingman I have is USB (don't know if there is a non-USB version of
it).. Also, I have two soundcards in my machine as well (and have another
stored in its box), but no combination of cards allows me to use two
gameports at the same time -- one must always be disabled as it conflicts
with the other card's gameport (and the "Input/Output Range" cannot be
changed on any card in the Device Manager to fix the conflict).
Steve.
"Bill Heigh" <bhei...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a4e...@news.bendnet.com...
Matt Crawford
analogue)....there is a game called RC Stunt Copter...if you set the
sensitivity quite high I find it to be pretty good.
I think there is a clone of the PSX type controller for the PC that has kept
the dual analogue...
I know you can link two sidewinder pads in series...surely there is an
option to do this with some of the analogue joysticks around
Regards...(and hugs all round)
Matt
"Steve Comninos" <steve_c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8MG36.45985$Z33.4...@news0.telusplanet.net...
MLofgren
joystick to replicate the stick movements of a RC transmitter "box." I am
an avid heli/fixed wing RC'r who also plays the occassional PC game. If you
are thinking seriously about getting into RC (or even just simulator flying
which is also considerably challenging for the heli's), you can't do better
than the RealFlight package.
I've been flying with RF Deluxe for well over a year and a few days ago just
got in my upgrade (Generation 2). If you have the original RF Deluxe, you
can get the upgrade for around $100, but it comes with a cash rebate coupon
for $40 off or a $60 merchandise credit. I thought the RF Deluxe was
fantastic - until I loaded up G2! Un-freaking believable... You really
need some high horsepower CPU speed and a good (no - great) graphics card
(32 megs on the graphics card with updated drivers is the only way to go),
and lots of memory. Fortunately this thread is geared towards "gamers," so
you guys more than likely already have the hot gear. My system isn't
actually lightning fast (anymore), but I do happen to have a 32 meg Rage
Fury, 512 megs of memory and a really, really nice 21" monitor (I design
injection molds for a living). The new G2 also runs under Win2K as well as
95/98/ME. Unfortuantely I dual boot from 95 to NT so I have to run it under
my 95 OS. The real key here is to make sure you have the latest and
greatest drivers. That was my only real problem getting the G2 to "fly." I
thought I always had the latest drivers, but lo and behold, when DirectX
V8.0 came out, my driver was outdated and didn't work with G2.
The transmitter version of RealFlight comes with a Futaba box without the
flight electronics, but gives you the sticks and switches needed to
replicate RC flight about as precisely as imaginable. I find it absolutely
indispensible and still use it for a half an hour or so before attempting to
fly my "real" heli (I actually have four heli's and four fixed wing
airplanes). I can honestly say that this system has saved me hundreds
(thousands?) of dollars in junked heli's - more than likely, I would have
gotten frustrated and given the hobby up, and gone back to flying fixed
wing.
I actually started in RC heli's almost 20 years ago with a Kavan Jet Ranger
(.60). I went through more rotor blades and "crash parts" than I care to
admit - and the sad thing is that I NEVER flew it (well more than a few
inches off the ground before it rolled and the blades became flying
shapnel). Sounds like I'm a salesman for RealFlight - Nope, just a real
believer in sims.
As a side note, eBay occassionally has the RealFlight (and other sim)
packages up for bid. Unfortunately, they seem to sell for nearly what you
can get the package for new at Tower or one of the other mail-order hobby
shops. I think too, that you have to be the original owner of RF Deluxe in
order to qualify for the rebates.
Hope this helps - Matt
"Steve Comninos" <steve_c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8MG36.45985$Z33.4...@news0.telusplanet.net...
Bill Heigh
interesting thread for me.
I too have a nice viewsonic 21"-er that I've had for several years now.
Unfortunately the rest of my system is not quite up to par, er should I say
the high standard of performance demanded by the G2 software. And upgrading
the PC would be counter productive to budgeting/buying an RC.
I have found out that there are indeed dual gameport cards out there. One of
the more interesting ones, from a gamers perspective is the PDPI Lightning
4, which I just heard about today.
( http://www.joy-stick.net/reviews/other/pdpil4.htm )
I might still try to fanangle my newer USB compatible joystick (which
requires 98 or 2k) into working with my W95 (usb ver) system as a last ditch
effort to get it to work without buying a new OS or new hardware (okay, or
waiting any longer, if you must know).
I've had another disturbing thought about the gamepads for PC's. I noticed
that the FMS software only supports up to 6 axis' per joystick. I'm
wondering if that effectively means that you won't get two full analog
sticks out of a single device? One thing I don't want to do is to shell out
$50+ and be right where I started this thing!
Tony Angar
I don't recall the thread suggesting you to buy a simulator with
a plug for a R/C transmitter (instead of joysticks) and buying
a used transmitter from someone. This way you won't be
chasing around trying dual gameports and making modifications.
I have an excess of transmitters vs. receivers (never crashed
a transmitter, yet!) and I'm sure a trip to the local flying field
(or hobby shop) could get you an unused transmitter.
Getting the 'best' version software and the 'baadest' computer
isn't the goal. Learning proper hand to eye coordination is...
Tony
www.modelhelicopter.com
MLofgren
Great story on your web site! I am humbled - I had never seen the Kavan Jet
Ranger fly (in "real life") before, though I had heard it was the first heli
to really get everyone's attention - e.g., that people could actually fly
the thing! I bought mine when I was in the military (I believe it was 1980)
and spent more money than I really could afford to at the time.
I sure wish there were sims out there at the time - I might have stuck with
the sport after my failure with the Kavan. I was in Phoenix, AZ at the time
and while the hobby shops said there were a few successful heli flyers
around, I never ran into one of them (guy's like you!). Too bad...
As for your suggestion about getting a used transmitter as your "joystick"
and using the less than state of the art version of a simulator package -
Bill, Tony is absolutely right!! I too have more transmitters than I care
to admit, though only two of them are considered true "helicopter"
transmitters (not that it is mandatory to have a heli transmitter for the
sims).
My younger brother sells on eBay for a living, and he just happens (as irony
may have it) a Kyosho helicopter radio for sale. It's an older model, but I
think would make a great simulator transmitter (plus it's a true heli
radio). Right now it's only going for $20.50 with a day and a half left.
The link is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=531655774
If it would be something you would like, I could probably convince him to
take it off now and let you have it for that price (plus shipping). He's a
great guy to deal with (he'd better be - I know where he lives!) and has
been doing eBay for about as long as anyone. Unfortunately he knows nothing
about RC!
Then all you would need is to get the sim with the transmitter interface and
you're pretty much all set (and should be able to run fine in a modest
computer set-up). Your 21" monitor will be fantastic too!!
I've included a link to eBay for a Skylark heli only simulator with
transmitter box included:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=532227339
I don't know anything about the Skylark sim - though I think you may want to
ask Tony - it looks like he has used one before. Anyway - hope this helps
(I think we all want to see more people fly heli's, so if you need other
assistance, just ask!).
Take care - Matt
"Tony Angar" <n...@spam.me> wrote in message news:3A508970...@spam.me...
Tony Angar
Thanks for the kind words. Although the Kavan Jet Ranger
can't compare to the models of today, there's a mystique
about them that may never be equaled.
The guys around my neighborhood flew OK (myself included)
but it wasn't until I attended a contest in Pennsylvania where I
met Bill Curtis. The day before the contest at his house, Bill
put a 'Ranger' through some maneuvers I hadn't thought
possible. This was somewhere around 1975-76. That was the
same weekend Ernie Huber gave a demonstration of inverted
flight using a Kavan Jet Ranger.
Back to the original topic, It wouldn't suprise me to be able to
find a working transmitter for $20 or $30. I'm keeping a
Super Seven heli radio for just that very reason. I have one
of the original Skylark simulators with an 'empty' transmitter
that still works fine for my needs. One day I may decide to
upgrade and I'll use the real transmitter for that purpose.
Matt, All the best...
Tony
Timothy Morris
"Tony Angar" <n...@spam.me> wrote in message news:3A50CABA...@spam.me...
Tony Angar
I wish I were electronically inclined. It's another way
of saving money making your own simulator.
Tony
Bill Heigh
That advice did come in to me, if not on this thread, then an earlier one. I
realize the value of just getting started with the sim. I am new to the area
and haven't made any connections with local flyers yet, except for one 'used
to be' guy at work.
I fiddle with computers for a living, and most serious gamers can dissect a
pc and overclock it left handed with a hangover. (did I put that too
strongly? okay maybe it would have to be in the afternoon! : ) So getting
the right setup with two joysticks isn't much of a task for me.
Getting a bird to hover, now that has proved elusive! But I've only just
started so I know it will come with practice. I figure I'll be spending
enough in due time if my interest gets piqued and it endures. I just don't
want to spend the dollars (at the beginning) on a commercial sim &
controller as long as there is a perfectly functional shareware sim out
there. It is the skill and technique I want to develop, not eye-popping
graphics and hot new hardware (although it's a bit of a temptation, I'll
freely admit).
What it comes down to is priorities. Wifey doesn't think our lives would be
enriched much by dedicating that much $$ on a hobby. hmph! (I'll win in the
end, she's just preparing for battle! : )
"Tony Angar" <n...@spam.me> wrote in message news:3A508970...@spam.me...
Bill Heigh
"Timothy Morris" <ma...@timothy-morris.org.us> wrote in message news:t51kjr8...@corp.supernews.com...
Bill Heigh
about 10 people about over the years and their wives want me dead! lol...
Hmm... maybe I should cruise over there...
I would love it if you would actually do that for me Matt. Then I would just
need a cable of some sort? hmm...
Thanks for all the great feedback guys!
Bill
"MLofgren" <mlof...@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:dx146.155082$IP1.5...@news1.giganews.com...