Who are the best "truly" dramatic or spinto tenors today?
Lucio F. Rodriguez
who where the best "all around" tenors of the world now a day's. But in
this article, I will like to refer and to ask you a more specific and
narrow question. Tell me ( in your own personal opinion of course), who
are the best "truly" dramatic or spinto tenors of today . Names and
why's please !
Dave Bowman
None. Because.
Dave
REG
Whom do we have to thank for this achievement?
"Dave Bowman" <davebowm...@isaidSPAMNOTpayattentionson.hotmail.com>
wrote in message news:3c406ce0...@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
dtritter
neatness and aptness of thought count. in your reply give your third
grade teacher's name and the code of your captain midnight secret ring.
[do not give anyone else's personal opinion, of course]. in case of tie,
the earlier postmark wins.
dft
AndreEdouard
It's the only way I can communicate with Don Paolo.
Andre
dtritter wrote:
> captain midnight secret ring. <
> dft
Leonard Tillman
>captain midnight secret ring.
>dft
Are any of them still around?
LT (Still PO'd that the Ovaltine people never sent me mine, after I
mailed in my label as instructed - a zillion years ago.)
LT
Lis K. Froding
"Lucio F. Rodriguez" wrote:
zzzzzzzzzzzz
Lis
Lucio F. Rodriguez
haven't receive a decent answer who deserves to be taking in to
consideration.. What is the matters ?. Remember that I am not asking you
in any way, to tell me that the "truly" dramatics or spinto tenors of
now a day's, should be in any way or form, comparable or to be put in
the same category (in quality), to the great ones of the past.
Therefore, also remember that I am only asking all of you, to tell me
the names of the ones in the present, that in your own opinion are the
best dramatics or spintos "today !" , regardless of their actual level
of qualities. Names please !.
dtritter
demerits for every failure to respond to this natterer. he only wants
"in your opinion," though he reserves the right to pronounce doom to any
whose answers don't match his own. one expects an iberian kay kayser to
shout out "students?!"
dft
==========
Lucio F. Rodriguez
thing at all, and I am not trying to put down the previous answers to
this topic in any way (I perfectly understand that this is suppose to be
a completely free opinion opera forum) . I just was referring to the
fact, that so far any of those previous answers, haven't answer at all
to my specific topic question, since so far no body has come with any
names at all, about whom are today's best "truly" dramatic or spinto
tenors. That's all ! .
Lucio F. Rodriguez
honest answer, and not "demanding" like you have said I did, realize the
fact that I haven't even refer so far, to my personal candidates in this
matters !. So therefore realize that I am not in any way, trying to get
any body here to agree with my personal opinions.
Karen Mercedes
Arguably a "full lyric", but certainly active in spinto rep: Neil Shicoff.
Why? Great dramatic ability, fine technique, and a vocal quality that, if
you like it, is both affecting and addictive. The most recent comment I
heard that captured what one hears in his voice - and either adores or
detests - is that it "bleeds with emotion".
Patrick Denniston is someone I'd like to hear more from. I was extremely
impressed by his Grigori/Dmitri in the Washington Opera's BORIS a few
seasons ago. A large, very attractive voice and another fine actor. Not
sure he has the stamina of a true dramatic, but the timbre and size were
certainly solidly spinto. I was pleased to note that he will be broadcast
on OVATION TV in February, as Cavaradossi - I'm looking forward to
seeing/hearing more of him!
Gegam Grigorian is another impressive and apparently truly dramatic-voiced
tenor (I say apparently because I've heard him only on recordings and
broadcasts, not live in the opera house). It's a voice with a core of real
power, and the characteristic "darkness" of a dramatic tenor voice.
Exciting emotion, and lovely cantabile. Not as inherently lovely as young
Atlantov, but comparable dramatically and in terms of power, from what I
can hear.
Placido Domingo hasn't retired yet, so would have to be on the list, even
if his resources are flagging. When he is good, however, he is still very,
VERY good. A good actor, an excellent musician, with a vocal timbre that
is unique and, like Shicoff's, seems to arouse polar reactions in people.
I polarise towards loving his sound.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
***************************************
What lies behind us, and what lies before us
are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
donpaolo
spent - you'll be surprised).
DonP.
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:4896-3C4...@storefull-218.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
AndreEdouard
I spent nothing for it, I stole it from Lucca Brazzi's kid.
Am I in trouble now?
DMFGAE
donpaolo
currently floundering...get it, "floundering". I just keeeel me.
BigPaulie
"AndreEdouard" <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C43647A...@bellsouth.net...
Leonard Tillman
undisclosed underwater location and may even be somewhat soggy at this
time. (Can't account for his kid's whereabouts, though.....*very*
probably with his old man, by now....)
LT
..........................
AndreEdouard wrote:
>Can you imagine, the little italian guy doubts
> me. I spent nothing for it, I stole it from Lucca
> Brazzi's kid. Am I in trouble now?
>DMFGAE
........................
>donpaolo wrote:
>Try Antiques Road Show - probably worth big
> bucks today (ask AE what he spent - you'll be
> surprised).
>DonP.
........................
AndreEdouard
You have but to call, my child.
DMFGAE
Elizabeth Hubbell
"Lis K. Froding" <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3C4249B8...@ix.netcom.com...
Truly?
We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff, arguably a spinto--and with
reason!<G>
Cheers,
Geoffrey (& Liz) Riggs
www.operacast.com
http://www.angelfire.com/or3/opnetradio/thiswk.htm
Elizabeth Hubbell
"Karen Mercedes" <dal...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.102011...@saltmine.radix.net...
A thoughtful list, to which one might add, acknowledging both their merits
and demerits, Vladimir Galouzine and Ben Heppner.
What a number of these candidates lack, save Shicoff who is only a spinto at
the heaviest (and a very fine artist, BTW), is abandon. With the greatest
dramatics and robustos like Melchior, Vickers, Vinay, Del Monaco,
Lauri-Volpi, Corelli, Pertile, Tucker, Merli, Caruso et al, one often has
the sense that they sing because, in their gut, they see no alternative. It
communicates as a compulsion. Whether or not some of them may have been
coached up the "wazoo", they simply don't
s o u n d
that way. Maybe they were doing an excellent job of fooling everyone (we
know at least Caruso and Corelli suffered acute stage fright), but the
results seem utterly spontaneous. That is simply not the case with the
current breed, fine as much of their musical training may be.
Having said that, I will say that I can imagine myself occasionally
o c c a s i o n a l l y
preferring, in isolation, Neil Shicoff's expert traversal, for example, of
the cabaletta of the Manrico/Azucena duet in Trovatore closing the first
scene of Act 2 to Mario Del Monaco's, or Heppner's musical delivery of
Tristan's five(!) monologues to Lauritz Melchior's sometimes helter-skelter
one, even given the latter's magnificent vocal shape on the Beecham Tristan,
1937. (Vickers, a case apart, IMO, somehow combined both Melchior's abandon
and Heppner's musical discipline, but Vickers is sui generis anyway.)
In the end, yes, one would still enjoy the occasional feeling today of at
least experiencing someone giving his all on stage purely because nothing
seems capable of throwing him off, rather than simply because--hey, if this
is Monday, it must be Radames. <yawn>
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
http://www.angelfire.com/or3/opnetradio/thiswk.htm
Lis K. Froding
Elizabeth Hubbell wrote:
> "Lis K. Froding" <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3C4249B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> >
> >
> > "Lucio F. Rodriguez" wrote:
> >
> > > Well opera fans. In an article of mine few days ago, I ask all of you
> > > who where the best "all around" tenors of the world now a day's. But in
> > > this article, I will like to refer and to ask you a more specific and
> > > narrow question. Tell me ( in your own personal opinion of course), who
> > > are the best "truly" dramatic or spinto tenors of today . Names and
> > > why's please !
> >
> > zzzzzzzzzzzz
> >
> > Lis
>
> Truly?
The reason for all the zzzzzs was that I find these types of threads very
tedious, and this was just another one from the same guy asking the same
boring question that have been asked ad nauseam, in a come-on post
with the exact same wording as the others, the only change being that
now he's asking about tenors and not sopranos.
Don't you find it tedious to go over it again and again and again?
> We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff, arguably a spinto--and
> with reason!<G>
Oh, of course I do. My zzzzzzzs had nothing to do any tenor. Or any
soprano for that matter.
Lis
Elizabeth Hubbell
> > news:3C4249B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> >
>
> Truly?
>
> We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff, arguably a spinto--and with
> reason!<G>
I know, I know, I goofed!<G> Shicoff may indeed be a spinto for good
reason, but that *wasn't* what I was making reference to.........
[rewrite] "We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff--and with reason!<G>
Now he's arguably a spinto, isn't he?"
Cheers,
Geoffrey Riggs [looking for his Strunk & White..............]
> www.operacast.com
> http://www.angelfire.com/or3/opnetradio/thiswk.htm
>
>
Lis K. Froding
Elizabeth Hubbell wrote:
> > > "Lis K. Froding" <too...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3C4249B8...@ix.netcom.com...
> > >
> > > zzzzzzzzzzzz
> >
> > Truly?
> >
> > We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff, arguably a spinto--and with
> > reason!<G>
>
> I know, I know, I goofed!<G> Shicoff may indeed be a spinto for good
> reason, but that *wasn't* what I was making reference to.........
>
> [rewrite] "We know you very much admire Neil Shicoff--and with reason!<G>
> Now he's arguably a spinto, isn't he?"
>
> Cheers,
> Geoffrey Riggs [looking for his Strunk & White..............]
Ah -- lyric -- spinto -- whatever -- who cares what you call it!
He sings beautifully!
Lis
Elizabeth Hubbell
> Don't you find it tedious to go over it again and again and again?
Well, the way I feel about it, frankly, is the way I've always felt: No
discussion of any topic is any more or less interesting than the
unfamiliarity of the ideas in response that it may elicit. I plead guilty
to being fascinated always by how others hear things and the differences
from one person's pair of ears to another's. Honestly, what (ideally) can
make a forum like this so wonderful, IMO, is the way in which one can never
entirely predict someone else's response. A topic may be old, true, but, in
certain circumstances, responses are always new. And that's the glory of
it.
There will always be some new perspective heard from not previously seen
here the last time that this topic (or any shopworn topic) was brought up.
That's why it's worthwhile reminding readers of a Neil Shicoff or a Vladimir
Galouzine or a Ben Heppner or a Robert Dean Smith or a Peter Seiffert or a
Gosta Winbergh or whoever. They may not, each and every one, be a true
dramatic or even a true spinto. But they have each aspired to something of
that in their way, making it perennially fascinating for a (self-confessedly
compulsive<GG>) collector and comparer of opinions like me to find out just
how other knowledgeable listeners, like you and others here, assess the
accomplishments of these six (and other?) would-be dramatic tenors.
As far as sheer vocal mettle goes, I might assess Galouzine as the most
thoroughgoing dramatic tenor today. But, arguably, Robert Dean Smith and
Neil Shicoff are the more inspired artists. When it comes to sheer beauty
of timbre, Heppner, Seiffert and Shicoff would seem to me the upper rung.
I am still interested in how others, beside myself, might assess these and
other(?) tenors. There is no right or wrong answer here, after all, but
there is possible a deeper understanding as to what kinds of things have
drawn each of us to opera in the first place. Finding out how we approach a
topic as initially familiar as this one can serve to acquaint each of us
more clearly with what it is that makes each of us tick--
--and differences from person to person are precisely what has fascinated
both the playwrights and the dramatic composers from time immemorial<G>!
It's really no different with a group of people who share a passionate
interest than it is with a group of interesting fictional characters in a
drama.
Cheers,
Elizabeth Hubbell
> Don't you find it tedious to go over it again and again and again?
Karen Mercedes
on-topic on this NG. I was rather looking forward to a discussion of the
subject in the header - but the "debate" disintegrated so rapidly into
mudslinging, namecalling, and general silliness that, once again, another
decent discussion of the *ostensible* subject of this NG has been coopted
by the lists ADD victims and egomaniacs.
Sigh.
Opaffic
>You know, sometimes it's a damn shame that people find it so hard to stay
>on-topic on this NG.
Sure is, Karen. A while back when a thread that interested me went up in
'flames', the paricipants changed the title and I was most grateful. Perhaps
that practice could be employed with more consistency??!! Please, and thanks!
Opaffic
Karen Mercedes
I think modern technical pedagogy actually inhibits a lot of singers from
"just cutting loose" - and to some extent with good reason. You mention
di Stefano among your list of singers who gave their all when they sang.
The result for him, of course, was the premature deterioration of his
voice. Ditto Callas.
There's a fine line to be walked between singing with total commitment and
singing with total abandon. I definitely agree that the former is crucial
- and that we may indeed hear far less of it today than folks did 1-2
generations ago.
I also wonder if it isn't a peculiarly U.S. pedagogical phenomenon, and
not just in the opera house. I watch the current generation of
American and even British actors, and also miss that total deep, raw
commitment and character identification that one found in the RADA
graduating class that gave us the likes of Ben Kingsley, Nigel Hawthorne,
Ian McKellen, Ian Holm, Patrick Stewart, et al on that side of the pond,
and the Juilliard class that gave us the likes of Robin Williams on this
side. With some rare exceptions (e.g., John Tuturro, Ralph Fiennes,
Miranda Richardson), I just don't see that kind of total immersion in
character, that risk-taking among today's actors - or singers.
Maybe we're
all just a more timid bunch than were our parents and grandparents. Or
maybe it's just that with the rise of television and improvements in
recorded sound, people became less concerned with the immediacy and
passoin of the musical (or theatrical) experience, and more concerned with
polished perfection. If an audience is totally intolerant of flaws at the
expense of the risk-taking that sometimes results in those flaws, then the
singer or actor is going to have less incentive to take those risks, and
more incentive to be as "perfect" as is humanly possible - even if
perfection equates, a bit, with dullness.
HenryFogel
>From: Karen Mercedes dal...@radix.net
>Date: 1/15/2002 1:21 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <Pine.SV4.3.96.102011...@saltmine.radix.net>
Karen, this is right on target -- and something many of us miss in the majority
of music-making today. It goes beyond singers (and actors). Conductors as
"eccentric" as Furtwangler and Mengelberg, violinists as "eccentric" as
Hubermann and Kreisler, or pianists like Hoffmann and Friedman just don't exist
- and I fear wouldn't be allowed to exist. There is a climate, an atmosphere
that's just in the air, that pushes performances toward a puristic
middleground. That's why so many of us long for the "old days," and the
excesses of singers like Corelli.
Henry Fogel
AndreEdouard
"Operatic Necrophilac's" division of RMO, as she so sweetly puts it.
But, for whatever reason, we aren't presented with the passionate
performances or performers of a some years ago.
Andre Edouard
HenryFogel
>Date: 1/15/2002 2:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C449208...@bellsouth.net>
>
> Ah, but be careful Henry Fogel, lest Karen include you in the
>"Operatic Necrophilac's" division of RMO, as she so sweetly puts it.
> But, for whatever reason, we aren't presented with the passionate
>performances or performers of a some years ago.
>Andre Edouard
>
I plead guilty. (But didn't it seem as if she was saying the same thing)?
Henry Fogel
Karen Mercedes
Sam Smith, editor of THE PROGRESSIVE REVIEW and author of the new book WHY
BOTHER? GETTING A LIFE IN A LOCKED-DOWN LAND. His thesis is that our
entire way of life in America is about going along with the status quo and
conforming to "norms" of behavior, and that this needs to change!
So it would seem that today's artistic trends - be they in theatre,
literature, instrumental music, or opera - are just a reflection of this
country's overall cultural malaise.
How to change things? Protest - both by refusing the play along, and by
insisting on something different. The trouble is, we opera junkies are all
so hungry for live opera that we keep buying tickets to see the
mediocrities of today's opera stage regardless, then we moan and bitch
about not liking what we've paid to see. If only there were some way to
STOP paying to see the mediocrity without threatening the core existence
of the opera house.... Anyone have any ideas?
Karen Mercedes
rather we spend our times actively SEEKING today's exceptions to the rule
of overcarefulness, instead of doing a Pilate - washing our hands of the
entire modern opera world, and shutting ourselves into our nice, safe
Fortress Antonia with our old Corelli and Warren recordings.
The sad truth is that the opera world is NOT handing us exciting new
artists on a silver salver (sorry to extend my Gospel metaphor) - we're
having to work harder to sift the wheat from the chaff (oh dear...) - but
I think the only way to begin to correct the situation is to actively
SEARCH for the exceptional artists, and then to do our best to promote
interest in them - mentioning their names repeatedly, tracking their
careers and showing up for as many of their performances as possible,
buying their recordings (if they have any), or if you want to be really
extreme and obsessive, creating fan Websites about them. :)
HenryFogel
>Interesting - I was listening earlier to an interview on the radio with
>Sam Smith, editor of THE PROGRESSIVE REVIEW and author of the new book WHY
>BOTHER? GETTING A LIFE IN A LOCKED-DOWN LAND. His thesis is that our
>entire way of life in America is about going along with the status quo and
>conforming to "norms" of behavior, and that this needs to change!
>
>So it would seem that today's artistic trends - be they in theatre,
>literature, instrumental music, or opera - are just a reflection of this
>country's overall cultural malaise.
>
>How to change things? Protest - both by refusing the play along, and by
>insisting on something different. The trouble is, we opera junkies are all
>so hungry for live opera that we keep buying tickets to see the
>mediocrities of today's opera stage regardless, then we moan and bitch
>about not liking what we've paid to see. If only there were some way to
>STOP paying to see the mediocrity without threatening the core existence
>of the opera house.... Anyone have any ideas?
>
>Karen Mercedes
The only problem with the theory is that you are describing, in Sam Smith's
interview at least, what he claims to be an American issue. But the world of
opera and classical music is international -- the same trends are true
throughout the music world, whether in Europe or America. I'm not sure what
that means, but it would seem to be an important difference.
Henry Fogel
Elizabeth Hubbell
"HenryFogel" <henry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020115161722...@mb-fu.aol.com...
Yup--and I myself have to plead guilty to having actually introduced the
whole concept of abandon into this dialogue in the first place
<ducking>......
Geoffrey (longing for Vickers, Corelli and abandon) Riggs
www.operacast.com
http://www.angelfire.com/or3/opnetradio/thiswk.htm
Ancona21
entire modern opera world, and shutting ourselves into our nice, safe
Fortress Antonia with our old Corelli and Warren recordings. >>
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Ancona
Mark D Lew
Karen Mercedes <dal...@radix.net> wrote:
> How to change things? Protest - both by refusing the play along, and by
> insisting on something different. The trouble is, we opera junkies are all
> so hungry for live opera that we keep buying tickets to see the
> mediocrities of today's opera stage regardless, then we moan and bitch
> about not liking what we've paid to see. If only there were some way to
> STOP paying to see the mediocrity without threatening the core existence
> of the opera house.... Anyone have any ideas?
I don't know how it is in your area, but in mine, there's a whole
underworld of no-budget opera productions. Attending such productions, one
must be willing to accept that (1) production values are minimal, and (2)
about half the singers are mediocre and another quarter are just plain bad;
but amid this, I've found, there are a surprising number of singers who are
really quite exciting. Usually, they are unpolished, but they're passionate
and interesting, and they throw themselves into their roles.
mdl