Master Sifo-Dyas (HUGE HUGE SPOILERS) the real thing...
iakovos
have
been
warned
I wasn't :)
Days to go:
5
4
3
2
1
0
-1
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6 (for me)
Fine...
The combined making of AOTC in Greek TV has some new scenes and dialogue,
like some views of Kamino, the approach of Obi-Wan's ship to Kamino and to
Geonosis, the explosion of the Naboo ship right at the start,
the fight between the Jedis and the battle droids, Anakin's and Amidala's
flirt in Naboo, the fight between Obi-Wan and Jengo Fett in the Hangar and
of the space
battle between them, Anakin chopping off the Tusken Raider as he exits the
tent. Anakin carrying something with a bitter look (his mother's body?) as
the Lars and Amidala watch him. There is behind the scenes footage and
also excerpts from interviews by George Lucas, Portman,
Christopher Lee, Samuel Jackson, Ewan Mcgregor, Hayden.
The particular scene (the whole scene) where Obi-wan informs the two
masters, Mace Windu and Yoda about his findings on Kamino ends the making
of.
New info of the pronunciation of some names.
The Nabou homeworld was pronounced Ne-bou by George Lucas.
Dooku's name was pronounced Du-ku by Christopher Lee.
George Lucas said that he wanted an actor wise and older like Alec Guinness
and
described Dooku as a Good Jedi (!!!) who has been through alot.
I am putting here the whole transcript from that scene, which creates lots
of questions.
EXT. JEDI TEMPLE, LIVING QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING
YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them
broadcasting the message. The room is dark and only the two Jedi Masters are
present.
The signal is indeed very weak, the image fades in and out.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
I have successfully made contact with the Prime Minister of Kamino.
They are using a Bounty Hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army.
I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we are
looking for.
MACE WINDU
Do you think these Cloners are involved in the plot to
assassinate the senator Amidala?
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
No, Master. There appears to be no motive.
YODA
Don't assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear your mind must be if
you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
OBI-WAN (V.O. Continued)
... Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
MACE WINDU
No, who ever placed that order did not have
the authorization of the Jedi Council.
YODA
Bring him here. Question him we will.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him.
The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.
YODA
Blind we are! This creation of a clone army we could not see.
MACE WINDU
Hmmm... I think it is time we inform the Senate that our
ability to use the force has diminished.
YODA
Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness.
If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.
MACE WINDU stares back at YODA, then slowly shakes his head.
That's a wrap.
Revelations:
Yoda, Mace and Obi-wan all know Sifo-Dyas.
Sifo-Dyas is a former Jedi Master and does exist.
Yoda knows that the Sith are behind this.
Questions:
Why did Sifo-Dyas fake his death?Is he a Sith? An ally of the Sith?
The apprentice of Sidious?Or the head of a new pair of Sith working
together?
Sifo-Dyas the Master and Dooku his apprentice? And Sidious still searching
for a new one?
The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
Unless Sidious posed as the dead Jedi to cover his tracks. If that is the
case why did he reveal his true identity to the Trade Federation (Hi, I am
Lord Sidious, Sith, and you are?) and not to the Cloners of Kamino?
If Sifo-Dyas is still alive then what do Windu and Yoda know about him, that
they do not tell to Obi-Wan?
This reminds me of the theory that Yoda and Obi-Wan manipulated Luke to get
to Vader.
We see now Yoda and Mace to manipulate Obi-Wan to get to the Sith? Or to
another secret?
How does Yoda know that the Dark Lord of the Sith knows their weakness?
If they are blind he cannot be sure. What haven't we be told about the Sith?
Yoda seems to be pretty confident that the Master of the Sith is alive,
and that his apprentice was killed after all.
This means that the Sith are behind the creation of the clone army,
according to Yoda.
If that is the case why Yoda uses the clones in the events to come, if he
thinks they
were created by the Sith?
The request of finding Sifo-Dyas seems that Yoda now is confident that he is
alive.
They cannot be asking Obi-Wan to find Jengo Fett (because Fett's name was
mentioned earlier on and Obi-Wan's questions are directed to the status of
the
former Jedi Master) and to question him (looks illogical, they would have
pointed out clearly, find this bounty Hunter).
Two things:
Is Sifo-Dyas one of the lost 20, like Dooku? Or is he a good Jedi, perhaps a
former Shadow Jedi (the ones who are responsible for penetrating the ranks
of the Dark Jedi)?
If this dialogue in the circulating AOTC script is true (when Jango and
Obi-Wan meet):
TAUN WE
Sido-Dyas told us to expect him.
And he showed up just when your
Jedi Master said he would. We
have kept the Jedi's involvement
a secret until your arrival, just
as your Master requested.
Does this mean that Sifo-Dyas is a Good Jedi?
How could he know that Obi-Wan would be showing up on Kamino?
And why would Darth Sidious (if he is posing as Sifo-Dyas) know that Obi-Wan
will be going there?
Well, hope that the movie will tell us more.
Cheers,
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>YOU
>
>have
>
>been
>
>warned
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I wasn't :)
>
>
>
>
>
>Days to go:
>
>5
>
>4
>
>3
>
>2
>
>1
>
>0
>
>-1
>
>-2
>
>-3
>
>-4
>
>-5
>
>-6 (for me)
>
>
>Fine...
<snip>
>The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
<snip>
>And why would Darth Sidious (if he is posing as Sifo-Dyas) know that Obi-Wan
>will be going there?
Ah but think about this: Sidious could very well be Sifo-Dyas after
all but is using "Sifo-Dyas" as a pseudo. The 2 names are just close
enough that only someone who knows of the name "Sidious" would raise
an eyebrow.
Supposing I posed as "Rindi-bowe Hirunne"? See?
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hopes that RH never poses as "Rindi-bowe Hirunne")
I could see where Sidious changed his name around a bit on the order
form so that when Dateline NBC came to call, they'd have to do some
major digging.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Penny for your two cents?
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:ponrdu0jep4nrk22j...@4ax.com...
Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of a
dead jedi
that sounds like his own name?
Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
Illogical.
If that was the case then he wouldn't be called Palpatine, but Da'rSi' Dyus!
Iakovos:)
Philip Heppenstall
I think this is a load of ol'bol'orks
--
=============================================
ALAN SHEARER 204 PREMIERSHIP GOALS.... SO FAR
=============================================
iakovos
"Philip Heppenstall" <SpamFr...@SpamSpamEggAndSpam.co.uk> wrote in
message news:ablec2$q6h$5...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Of all the gin joints in all the world, iakovos walks into mine
>
>
> I think this is a load of ol'bol'orks
Yoda will not be happy about it...
Iakovos:)
Darth Gumby
<RH scares off some Tuskens that are rummaging through DG's stuff>
<DG wakes up>
This sig here says it's the property of a Rindi-bow Hirunne, do you know her?
>I could see where Sidious changed his name around a bit on the order
>form so that when Dateline NBC came to call, they'd have to do some
>major digging.
Why hasn't there ever been a nosy reporter character in SW? Huh?
>==========================================
>http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
>Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
>==========================================
>Penny for your two cents?
Gumby
--
"I think my brain hurts"
-- Prof. C.H. Gumby, from I, Gumby
Rainbow Heron
More doogle from Google. Why has my newsserver gone frugle?
<ng sig:>"What's a 'doogle'?"
Just trying to make it rhyme, sheesh.
>From: Darth Gumby (DarthMyHe...@hotmail.com)
>Subject: Re: AFS Re: Master Sifo-Dyas (HUGE HUGE SPOILERS) the real thing...
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc
>View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
>Date: 2002-05-12 22:14:15 PST
>
>
>On Sat, 11 May 2002 23:30:48 -0400, Rainbow Heron transmitted this:
beepbeepbeep be-deep beepbeepbeepbeep...
Rinidi-bowe Hirunne? Rindi-bowe. Now that's a name I've not heard in a
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. A LONG time.
Like about 16.5 hours. That's an *eternity* around here! Y'know?! :-)
<this sig here ribs Rindi-bowe Hirunne in the side>
OW! Yeah I know her. <fidgits>
>>I could see where Sidious changed his name around a bit on the order
>>form so that when Dateline NBC came to call, they'd have to do some
>>major digging.
>
>Why hasn't there ever been a nosy reporter character in SW? Huh?
Maybe it was Max Rebo's former occupation. he's certainly got the nose
for what's hip.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig wonders if Max Rebo would investigate Rindi-bowe Hirunne)
HEY! Get away from my hip!
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
I'm gonna kick their asses! And then I'm gonna kick their butts!
And when I'm done kicking their donkeys and cigarettes,
I'm gonna kick THEM!
Daniel O. Miller
> More doogle from Google. Why has my newsserver gone frugle?
FYI, a Google search on "doogle" nets about 2300 hits.
Daniel O. Miller
"Does this look familiar? Do you know what it is? Neither do I! I made
it last night in my sleep. Apparently I used gindrogac - highly unstable!
I put a button on it, yes? I wish to press it, but I'm not sure what will
happen if I do..." - Gune
WWYD?
Gyumaoh
The script and actual film differ greatly when it comes to this. In the
script, none of the Jedi have heard of "Sido-Dyas". But in the actual film, he
appears to be an actual dead Jedi whose identity was used to order the clone
army.
>Unless Sidious posed as the dead Jedi to cover his tracks. If that is the
>case why did he reveal his true identity to the Trade Federation (Hi, I am
>Lord Sidious, Sith, and you are?) and not to the Cloners of Kamino?
His real identity is Palpatine, so he really didn't reveal it to anyone.
>They cannot be asking Obi-Wan to find Jango Fett (because Fett's name was
>mentioned earlier on and Obi-Wan's questions are directed to the status of
>the
>former Jedi Master
I just attributed it to bad writing and assumed they meant Jango, but you could
be right.
The reviwers are right about one thing; ATOC IS kind of confusing at times.
Twisted
was that Sidious or Dooku were posing as Sifo-Dyas to get the clone army
created, the Sith wouldnt want to use them in the first place anyway,
becuase Papatine is basically bidding his time in the Senate until he's sees
his oportunity to take over and start the Empire, this would obviously take
an army of some sort.......Remind you of anything?
As far as the seperatists, Palpatine has obviously instructed Dooku to
pursue this movement to cause trouble in the republic and give Palpatine an
excuse to get away with this little army trick of his.
But I have a feeling Palpatine knows that he needs Anakin, I think the
Emperor has forseen Vader, and knows he will, along with Boba Fett and other
bounty hunters, hunt down and destroy the Jedi.
I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the lost
numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very high
power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
Sifo-Dyas....."
Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create the
clonetroopers
Dark Lord Karno Dal
Lord Karno Dal chattering, "We WANTS it, My Precious!" and saying....
> Yeah, Im in the process of reading the book and the first thing I thought
> was that Sidious or Dooku were posing as Sifo-Dyas to get the clone army
> created, the Sith wouldnt want to use them in the first place anyway,
> becuase Papatine is basically bidding his time in the Senate until he's sees
> his oportunity to take over and start the Empire, this would obviously take
> an army of some sort.......Remind you of anything?
Hillary Clinton?
--
May the Darkness be with you....
Dark Lord Karno Dal
si...@lords.com
---------------------------------------------------
JTFC Co-Commander: Sith Wars III and 8.1
Special Envoy to the Bith Empire: Sith War IV
Official RASSM Cool Person
RASSM Hall of Fame Member since 1997
---------------------------------------------------
I survived the Great Endor ClusterF*ck.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Rainbow Heron
<dmil...@ridgenet.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 13 May 2002, Rainbow Heron wrote:
>
>> More doogle from Google. Why has my newsserver gone frugle?
>
>FYI, a Google search on "doogle" nets about 2300 hits.
SOMEBODY HIT DOOGLE?!?!?!
FOR SHAME!
-Rainbow Heron
(sig oogles at the doogle on google)
Don'tcha just hate it when you try to make up words only to find that
someone else has already made them up? :-P
Rainbow Heron
<twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote:
>I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the lost
>numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very high
>power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
>position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
>Sifo-Dyas....."
>
>Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
>thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create the
>clonetroopers
Or this: if Sidious = Sifo-Dyas (which I think is the case) and they
know that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Force user of some sort (maybe not
necessarily a Sith as the Trade Federation knew), then the Kamino guys
would have to assume that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
Remember, the Sith are supposedly extinct and the only group that
suspects otherwise are the Jedi. So it's natural for anybody other
than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi. And if
the assumed Jedi speaks with great authority, then it would naturally
be assumed that the guy is a Jedi Master.
Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
theory of theirs.
Sidious is a masquerader. I believe he'd use a psuedo and make it
obvious that he's a Force user, but not necessarily Sith. If Sidious
wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig should point out that RH has not read the books or seen a preview
of the movie)
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Jell-o jigglers are like Gak
...except they don't make that fart noise.
Rainbow Heron
a la Google
>From: iakovos (indi...@ath.forthnet.gr)
>Subject: Re: Master Sifo-Dyas (HUGE HUGE SPOILERS) the real thing...
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars, rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc
>View: Complete Thread (5 articles) | Original Format
>Date: 2002-05-11 20:50:11 PST
>dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
Jedi
>Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
>Illogical.
Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
first name and change their last name when they change locations.
It's not illogical at all.
Just easy.
>Da'rSi' Dyus!
Nah, that'd be Darcy Dious.
Still, I'd rather wait for the movie. (less than 48 hours to go)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig would be gis)
As in "haggis" there sig?
mostly harmless
The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine, then
Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
name Palpatine.
--
to mail remove the obvious
iakovos
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
news:abtfr...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine, then
> Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
> name Palpatine.
That's why it creates a bigger mystery.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Twisted" <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote in message
news:abrn3l$jdb5n$1...@ID-136141.news.dfncis.de...
> Yeah, Im in the process of reading the book and the first thing I thought
> was that Sidious or Dooku were posing as Sifo-Dyas to get the clone army
Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
> Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
> thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create
the
> clonetroopers...
For me, it looks more of: "Sifo-Dyas? We had planned something with him...
and a clone army is what he has done?"
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:aps2eu0bea578tg36...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 14 May 2002 20:22:36 +0100, "Twisted"
> <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote:
>
> >I think Sifo Dyas did actually die, I dont think that he is one of the
lost
> >numbers, but Obi Wan seems to think that he was a in position of very
high
> >power in the Jedi council, maybe even holding Mace Windus or Yodas
> >position...One of the Kaminoans tells Obi Wan - "Please tell your Master
> >Sifo-Dyas....."
My view exactly...
> >Heres a thought, maybe Sifo Dyas trained either Mace Windu or Yoda, and
> >thats why they look so shocked to here of the use of his name to create
the
> >clonetroopers.
There must be something deeper than a simple mentioning of a known name to
them.
Yoda and Windu look like "oh, shit, where did HE come from? We told him to
do that etc."
Just an example.
> Or this: if Sidious = Sifo-Dyas (which I think is the case) and they
> know that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Force user of some sort (maybe not
> necessarily a Sith as the Trade Federation knew), then the Kamino guys
> would have to assume that Sidious/Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
assume that the Sith are no more.
>So it's natural for anybody other
> than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi.
There is no reason whatsoever for any Force user to demonstrate his use of
the force.
Why do it anyway? Sidious doesn't do it in any encounter, and Maul too
(while speaking with the Trade Federation guys).
> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
> theory of theirs.
Too far fetched. And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>If Sidious
> wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
> think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
Discredit on what grounds? Doe not make sense.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of
a
> >dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
>
> Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
> Jedi
How do you know?
>
> >Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
> >Illogical.
>
> Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
> a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
> first name and change their last name when they change locations.
>
> It's not illogical at all.
Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
Venger
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
news:abtfr...@enews3.newsguy.com...
If Sifo-Dyas is just some lame soundalike for Sidious, that's gonna be a
bitter disappointment...
<Table ready for...pause...Sifo-Dyas...party of 2...>
Venger
Twisted
iakovos wrote in message <10214654...@athprx02.forthnet.gr>...
>Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
Because it has convinced everyone that their is an army available that the
republic can use, Palpy wants control of the senate, he doesnt care how many
of his apprentices get wiped out in the process, hence him telling Maul
"They will be no match for you my apprentice", he doesnt care....He knows
that Dooku will cause enough of a stir to overpower the Jedi and uses this
to gain "Emergency powers" in the Senate, thus being able to decree the use
of the clones.
How much money dya wanna bet that in AATA Palpatine wont relase these
emergency powers, thus giving birth to the empire?
The Darkside have screwed up the force, so it makes sense that only the sith
at the moment are the ones with a clear picture of what the future holds.
iakovos
"Venger" <Ven...@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:F6uE8.147483$M7.14...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Could he be a clone of PALPAtine?
LOL
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Twisted" <twistedm...@ToughGuy.net> wrote in message
>
> iakovos wrote in message <10214654...@athprx02.forthnet.gr>...
> >Why NOT use them? And why let his enemies use his own army?
>
> Because it has convinced everyone that their is an army available that the
Yes, but the Jedi must be mindful that this army was a work done by the
Sith!
>Palpy wants control of the senate, he doesnt care how many
> of his apprentices get wiped out in the process, hence him telling Maul
> "They will be no match for you my apprentice", he doesnt care....
Well, for all we know Palpy could have been the apprentice ;)
>He knows
> that Dooku will cause enough of a stir to overpower the Jedi and uses this
> to gain "Emergency powers" in the Senate, thus being able to decree the
use
> of the clones.
I sure believe that in episode 3 the clones will turn against the Republic,
thus leading to the real clone wars.
> How much money dya wanna bet that in AATA Palpatine wont relase these
> emergency powers, thus giving birth to the empire?
Palpatine will use more power including the creation of another army
(regular troopers)
to stop the clones.
> The Darkside have screwed up the force, so it makes sense that only the
sith
> at the moment are the ones with a clear picture of what the future holds.
AGREED.
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:fvv2eucn884ntb5hr...@4ax.com...
>> >Wouldn't it be for Sidious a little bit TOO convenient to find a name of
>a
>> >dead jedi that sounds like his own name?
>>
>> Too convenient = too obvious = no he didn't use the name of a dead
>> Jedi
>
>How do you know?
We're speculating in this thread. This is my speculation.
>> >Why would you use a name that sounds like your own in the first place?
>> >Illogical.
>>
>> Ever see those Dateline or Law and Order things where they're tracking
>> a con artist or a cheating husband? Lots of times they'll keep their
>> first name and change their last name when they change locations.
>>
>> It's not illogical at all.
>
>Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig has two names)
Just my opinion- you don't have to agree with it.
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
Why would they recognize him? Yoda et al don't know that Palpatine =
Sidious or even Palpatine = Sifo-Dyas.
So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig doesn't have hands)
So far, the Jedi Council just seems to be going around in circles.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
>>So it's natural for anybody other than the Jedi to assume that *any* Force user would be a Jedi.
>
>There is no reason whatsoever for any Force user to demonstrate his use of
>the force.
True but I never said anything about that.
But whether they received a demonstration or not, they obviously
*think* Sifo-Dyas is a Force user, specifically of the Jedi kind.
(whether he is a Jedi or not was the original speculation)
>Why do it anyway?
To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
>Sidious doesn't do it in any encounter, and Maul too
>(while speaking with the Trade Federation guys).
Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
*some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
authenticity.
"I'm a cop."
"Let me see your badge"
>> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
>> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
>> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
>> theory of theirs.
>
>Too far fetched.
How so?
>And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
>He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
situation mention the Sith?
>> If Sidious wants to *discredit* the Jedi in the eyes of the Republic, then I
>> think he might let on to the Kamino guys that he's a Jedi.
>
>Discredit on what grounds? Doe not make sense.
If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
reacts to things like that.
So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
Just think Earth politics here for a moment and you'll get the idea.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hates these kinds of Earth politics)
After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
realm?
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:18:53 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
> >assume that the Sith are no more.
>
> That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
> know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
> assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
He said he is a Jedi master, he must be a Force user then...
> True but I never said anything about that.
I never said you did.
> To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
Not necessary.
He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for it
in advance!
> Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
> were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
> *some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
> something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
> authenticity.
>
> "I'm a cop."
>
> "Let me see your badge"
*waves hand*
You do not have to see my badge.
I do not have to see your badge.
You are scared shitless.
I am scared shitless.
I do not think so. The Trade Federation are cowards. They do not even
require a demonstration.
Didn't you see how intimidated they were in the revelation that the
Ambassadors are Jedi?
> >> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
> >> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
> >> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
> >> theory of theirs.
> >
> >Too far fetched.
>
> How so?
If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should they
think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
> >And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
> >He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>
> Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
> situation mention the Sith?
If he DID connect the clones themselves with the Sith, then he would NOT use
the clones at all.
If you had only suspicions of a "certain gift" given to you, you would not
take it.
"Trojan Horse" anyone?
> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
Why would anyone put such an order?
> When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
> time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
> what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
> politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
> reacts to things like that.
Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
>
> So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
> exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
> and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
actually gives them a good name.
> After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
> factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
> realm?
Because Jedi are not politicians!
iakovos
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:24:02 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >How do you know?
>
> We're speculating in this thread. This is my speculation.
Oh, ok. It's a statement you mean. Not proof.
> >Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
>
> I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
> that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
Well, isn't it?
Noone knows him as Anakin apart from those close to him.
> Just my opinion- you don't have to agree with it.
That's what open free discussion is all about :)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:02c6euceap48jvnal...@4ax.com...
> >Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using the
> >name Palpatine.
>
> Why would they recognize him? Yoda et al don't know that Palpatine =
> Sidious or even Palpatine = Sifo-Dyas.
They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
> So far, the Jedi Council just seems to be going around in circles.
Yup.
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
off the cross-post.
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:p7c6eus6ej5g3g3in...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 15 May 2002 15:18:53 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >Not necessarily. The Kamino guys are far away from the republic to
>> >assume that the Sith are no more.
>>
>> That's pretty much what I just said. The Kamino guys don't need to
>> know if the Sith are still there or not- the point is, they're
>> assuming the Force user Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi.
>
>They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
that I am telling you the truth?!
The Sith are thourough liars and exceptionally skilled at manipulating
the truth. I wouldn't trust them to tell me truthfully what they
didn't say yesterday.
Just because the Kamino *assume* he's a Jedi, does not mean that he
*is* a Jedi!
>> True but I never said anything about that.
>
>I never said you did.
Just so we're straight- that's all.
>> To prove who they are or at least make them do what they want.
>
>Not necessary.
>He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for it
>in advance!
Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
of some sort.
But if the clones are being used for an army (as they obviously are)
then any respected business would have to raise an eyebrow. Especially
if the order was placed by a *supposed* Jedi. After all, don't the
Jedi do the fighting themselves? The Jedi have no reason to create a
clone army. It just doesn't jive.
>> Ok then- how did the Trade Federation guys know that Sidious an Maul
>> were Sith? Whether they used the Force or not, I'm sure there was
>> *some* sort of demonstration given. Someone asks/tells you to do
>> something and you'll want proof of their authority or at least their
>> authenticity.
>>
>> "I'm a cop."
>>
>> "Let me see your badge"
>
>*waves hand*
>
>You do not have to see my badge.
>
>I do not have to see your badge.
>
>You are scared shitless.
>
>I am scared shitless.
After guy leaves:
"Wow what was that all about?"
"Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
"Wow who paid for it?"
"I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
"Say who's that coming?"
"Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
"Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
"Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
"Who?!"
>I do not think so. The Trade Federation are cowards. They do not even
>require a demonstration.
>Didn't you see how intimidated they were in the revelation that the
>Ambassadors are Jedi?
But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
>> >> Yes Windu and Yoda are shocked- but they are shocked to hear that a
>> >> supposed Jedi would do all of this because they know that a fellow
>> >> Jedi wouldn't...which gives credence to the "Sith have returned"
>> >> theory of theirs.
>> >
>> >Too far fetched.
>>
>> How so?
>
>If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should they
>think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
Because a "fellow Jedi" is a fellow- he'd do what they would do. A
"fellow Jedi" wouldn't order a clone army.
>> >And besides, Yoda does not connect the one with the other.
>> >He only points out that they are blind and the Sith know that.
>>
>> Oh but he does- why else would his immediate comment about the
>> situation mention the Sith?
>
>If he DID connect the clones themselves with the Sith, then he would NOT use
>the clones at all.
>If you had only suspicions of a "certain gift" given to you, you would not
>take it.
And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
Seeing a pattern here?
>> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
>> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
>> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
>
>Why would anyone put such an order?
To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
now. So either:
1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
Force
2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
3. both of the above
Only Sidious/Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas fits all the criteria, because a Jedi
would not have placed the order 10 years ago with the intent of
causing trouble, and its obvious that if the Dark Side is clouding up
the future to the Jedi, then only a Sith could have done this.
Hence Yoda's comment. They could not see it coming 10 years ago and
they can't see what's coming now. Only the Sith can, and the Sith
obviously know something the Jedi don't. And the Sith knows this
because things are going forward and it ain't in the Jedis' favor.
>> When word gets out (and these kinds of things do get out all the
>> time), the galaxy starts to gossip and speculate on the matter and
>> what happens is pretty much anything you see here on Earth with
>> politicians and their "secret pet projects". You know how the public
>> reacts to things like that.
>
>Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
But they are being thown into the political arena unwillingly.
First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
with Padme.
Whether a Jedi is a politician or not, if the public sees a Jedi
inside the political arena in any sense, then they will treat him as
being connected with it.
The Clone army is a political tool. If the Jedi use the Clone army,
then they are using a political tool and can be looked upon with many
of the same scrutinies as a politician.
This is good for Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas as it brings the Jedi
into his 'home turf' in more ways than one, and thus makes them more
vulnerable to the great big bombshell he's gonna drop on them in Ep3.
>> So when the time comes for Palpatine to introduce his New Order and
>> exterminate the Jedi, the public will have its doubts about the Jedi
>> and thus it will be easier for Palpatine/Sidious to get rid of them.
>
>The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
Score one for the Sith.
>A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
>actually gives them a good name.
"Is used" being in quotation means there's something else behind it.
Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
>> After all, politicians try to discredit each other and each other's
>> factions all the time, so why should this be any different in that one
>> realm?
>
>Because Jedi are not politicians!
(back up 2 answers)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hopes the scary termite dudes stay away from the neighborhood
tonight)
Now if only certain people around here would change their minds so
that I could see AOTC *this weekend*...
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >Well, here Sidious keeps his ONLY name, if this is the case.
>>
>> I'm sorry but if Sidious is his only name, then you might as well say
>> that "Vader" is Anakin's only name.
>
>Well, isn't it?
>Noone knows him as Anakin apart from those close to him.
Think ahead to ESB and Sith names here.
Palpatine = Sidious
Anakin = Vader
"Vader" is not Anakin's only name.
No one knows him as Vader apart from those close to him until the last
few minutes of ESB.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig has another name)
Ergo, Sidious is not his (Palpatine's) only name either.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
them somehow?
(by now you've probably seen the movie before I have)
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
Who wouldn't? :-)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig wants to ask him who the heck designed the clonetroopers' armor)
I'm imagining a scene with the Jedi Council questioning Sifo-Dyas
Homcide-style with Yoda as Pembleton. :-)
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
> Think ahead to ESB and Sith names here.
>
> Palpatine = Sidious
> Anakin = Vader
>
> "Vader" is not Anakin's only name.
>
> No one knows him as Vader apart from those close to him until the last
> few minutes of ESB.
I didn't see any imperial calling him Skywalker, or even Anakin...
They all called him Dark Lord. We must assume that Vader is his established
name.
Think to ANH here. Leia calls him Lord Vader. And so do the Imperials.
No one knows him as Anakin apart from the emperor, Yoda and Obi-wan.
> Ergo, Sidious is not his (Palpatine's) only name either.
Yes, that's true. However, Palpatine goes by the name of Emperor Palpatine
and not emperor Sidious.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
>
> Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
> them somehow?
Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the rank
of jedi.
They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
> (by now you've probably seen the movie before I have)
Not yet. Tomorrow for me...
>
> >> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> >> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> >> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
> >
> >That's why they want to question Sifo-Dyas.
>
> Who wouldn't? :-)
>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig wants to ask him who the heck designed the clonetroopers' armor)
>
> I'm imagining a scene with the Jedi Council questioning Sifo-Dyas
> Homcide-style with Yoda as Pembleton. :-)
Nah, Mulder Mace questioning him and Yoda Scully offering all the science
stuff.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"iakovos" <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote in message
news:10215395...@athprx02.forthnet.gr...
> Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the
rank
> of jedi <master>.
> They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> On Thu, 16 May 2002 10:01:55 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
> off the cross-post.
To both. Tell me which one you want and I'll stick with it :)
>
> >They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
>
> So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
> that I am telling you the truth?!
If you looked like one, yes.
Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
> The Sith are thourough liars and exceptionally skilled at manipulating
> the truth. I wouldn't trust them to tell me truthfully what they
> didn't say yesterday.
Well, the Kamino guys cannot know the difference I guess.
>
> >Not necessary.
> >He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for
it
> >in advance!
>
> Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
> of some sort.
Exactly. With money comes power.
>
> But if the clones are being used for an army (as they obviously are)
> then any respected business would have to raise an eyebrow. Especially
> if the order was placed by a *supposed* Jedi. After all, don't the
> Jedi do the fighting themselves? The Jedi have no reason to create a
> clone army. It just doesn't jive.
Yes, you have a point there. but the order was through the Jedi FOR the
republic.
Not for the jedi themselves.
> >> "I'm a cop."
> >>
> >> "Let me see your badge"
> >
> >*waves hand*
> >
> >You do not have to see my badge.
> >
> >I do not have to see your badge.
> >
> >You are scared shitless.
> >
> >I am scared shitless.
>
> After guy leaves:
>
> "Wow what was that all about?"
>
> "Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
>
> "Wow who paid for it?"
>
> "I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
>
> "Say who's that coming?"
>
> "Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
>
> "Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
>
> "Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
>
> "Who?!"
Well, Kenobi does not say who but... who? Him? I knew that guy...
> But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
> doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
Well, usually when money are involved they should not care.
Besides the Kamino guys are not risking their own lives on this one as the
Trade Federation.
> >If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should
they
> >think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
>
> Because a "fellow Jedi" is a fellow- he'd do what they would do. A
> "fellow Jedi" wouldn't order a clone army.
And Anakin would not turn to the dark side. He was a fellow previously.
> And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
The thing was forced.
> Seeing a pattern here?
Yes.
> >> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
> >> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
> >> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
> >
> >Why would anyone put such an order?
>
> To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
Or politicians... but... Jedi do stir up trouble, as Dooku does (we do know
he IS a jedi).
> Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
> obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
> now. So either:
>
> 1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
> Force.
Long term plan?
> 2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
> executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
> 3. both of the above
It does not add up. If he could see the future why would he be so confident
that his own enemies will use the army HE created? The future is in great
motion.
Palpy takes a tremendous risk here.
> Only Sidious/Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas fits all the criteria, because a Jedi
> would not have placed the order 10 years ago with the intent of
> causing trouble, and its obvious that if the Dark Side is clouding up
> the future to the Jedi, then only a Sith could have done this.
Could it not be someone from the lost 20 that CAN still see the future and
wants to help the jedi?
Dooku wants to think so (despite the fact that he is with the bad guys).
> Hence Yoda's comment. They could not see it coming 10 years ago and
> they can't see what's coming now. Only the Sith can, and the Sith
> obviously know something the Jedi don't. And the Sith knows this
> because things are going forward and it ain't in the Jedis' favor.
Yes, agreed. However there is still reason for argument.
If you are so suspicious then why use the resources your enemy intended you
to use?
> >Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
>
> But they are being thown into the political arena unwillingly.
That does not make them politicians. They are political tools yes. But they
serve the greater cause, not petty things.
>
> First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
> with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
> with Padme.
They are used as tools, not as political powers themselves (think of the
NATO or UN forces, these do not dictate politics).
> The Clone army is a political tool. If the Jedi use the Clone army,
> then they are using a political tool and can be looked upon with many
> of the same scrutinies as a politician.
The clones are an army tool so far, not a political. Their use will be
political when the empire arrives, if indeed the Stormies are clones, which
I doubt.
> >The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
>
> Score one for the Sith.
But they have always doubts for the Sith (thus the Rebel Alliance).
>
> >A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
> >actually gives them a good name.
>
> "Is used" being in quotation means there's something else behind it.
Yes, indeed.
>
> Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
> Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
> against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
We do not know exactly what Palpatine/Sidious has in store for them too.
> >Because Jedi are not politicians!
>
> (back up 2 answers)
Back up you too...
> Now if only certain people around here would change their minds so
> that I could see AOTC *this weekend*...
Weekend? weekend? Not strong the force with this one...
Iakovos:)
Michael Halbrook
@athprx02.forthnet.gr:
> Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
History and memory would tell us that. Now someone on his staff that
wasn't in the public eye...
Kothos
Palpatine becomes Emperor as a follow-on from being Chancellor. If he was
Cnacellor Palpatine then logically the Republic/Empire would know him as
Palpatine when he became Emperor. Perhaps he is still Darth Sidious to
himself? For Vader this sequence does not hold, perhaps even he wanted to
get away from being associated with Anakin Skywalker?
It seems to me that the sequence of events goes like this:
Either Darth Sidious exists from the beginning or not. Either way Sifo-Dyas
becomes a member of the Jedi Council. If he is Darth Sidious then this is
done fraudulently and if not then at some stage in the future he must fall
to the dark side and becomes Darth Sidious.
He fakes his death and leaves the coucil, reappearing as Senator Palpatine
(possibly with lots of reconstructive surgery?),
eventually becoming Emperor Palpatine. If Windu and Yoda know of him then
perhaps they realised he was a Sith while sitting on the Jedi Council and
somehow or other had him expelled (which would be whenabouts he faked his
death).
The only flaw in the above is that the Sith are supposed to have been dead
for thousands of years. Unless... he wasn't, or they didn't know he was, a
Sith when sitting on the Jedi Council - they just thought he had slipped to
the Dark Side and had him expelled for that.
That means by the end of Ep. II, Windu and Yoda know that the Jedi Master
they knew as Sifo-Dyas is the Sith Master that they are up against, although
they still don't know that it's Chancellor Palpatine.
Does that make any sense?
Kothos
mostly harmless
As Iokovas says, he was member of the Jedi Council, so I think they
_should_ recognise him. I had the same thought as you when I heard the
name and that it was Sideous with a slightly different name, but it
appears now its another Jedi with similar sounding name.
> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
People can fake this kind of stuff. Hell, I could tell you I was
Senator John McCain! I could even tell you I was Jane Doe Markenson
and give you a whole big long bullsh*t history!
But that doens't mean that I really am Senator John McCain or that
Jane Doe Markenson even exists.
I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig could masquerade as DG)
If this is just another red herring then so be it, but you can't say
this kind of thing doesn't happen.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the book (page
number) or movie on this stuff!!!
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
>control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
It's not the actual Force itself they are losing control over, it's
their ability to use it to their full potential because they are being
blocked/clouded by the Dark Side.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig's siggy head is spinning)
Thank you!
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Oliver J. Hanau
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> If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the
> book (page number) or movie on this stuff!!!
As you wish:
OBI-WAN: They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army
at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the
impression he was killed before that.
And that, er, is it. Windu and Yoda don't reply to this since Obi-Wan
changes the subject to whether the Senate ever approved of such a thing.
> Thank you!
Oli"welcome"ver.
[my sig is too shy to say something herself but smiles sheepishly]
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:kvm6eu8dp7m18bl5o...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 16 May 2002 10:01:55 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>
>> First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
>> off the cross-post.
>
>To both. Tell me which one you want and I'll stick with it :)
RASSM please.
>> >They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
>>
>> So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
>> that I am telling you the truth?!
>
>If you looked like one, yes.
>Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
If you're a little kid in a third-world country away from most other
people and you've never even seen Clinton then hell yes.
Sifo-Dyas doesn't appear to be a well-known name to anyone except
Windu and Yoda. The only reason it means anything to the Kamino guys
is because the guy with this name placed the order.
>> The Sith are thourough liars and exceptionally skilled at manipulating
>> the truth. I wouldn't trust them to tell me truthfully what they
>> didn't say yesterday.
>
>Well, the Kamino guys cannot know the difference I guess.
Exactly. I mean, outside the Jedi, who would? The Sith have supposedly
been extict for 1000 years and the rest of the galaxy has gone on with
the rest of their lives.
>> >Not necessary.
>> >He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money for
>> >it in advance!
>>
>> Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
>> of some sort.
>
>Exactly. With money comes power.
But why would a supposed Jedi use money to prove their power? Jedi
aren't about money and power- Sith are. The sign is every bit as
important- it tells you how they think.
>> But if the clones are being used for an army (as they obviously are)
>> then any respected business would have to raise an eyebrow. Especially
>> if the order was placed by a *supposed* Jedi. After all, don't the
>> Jedi do the fighting themselves? The Jedi have no reason to create a
>> clone army. It just doesn't jive.
>
>Yes, you have a point there. but the order was through the Jedi FOR the
>republic.
>Not for the jedi themselves.
But why would a *Jedi* *do* that?!
If a Jedi saw 10 years ago that an army was needed, he would have told
the Repoublic about it. Not snuck off and placed an order and then
spring it up on them 10 years later.
Jedi are noble, they don't hide stuff like an impending war.
>> >> "I'm a cop."
>> >>
>> >> "Let me see your badge"
>> >
>> >*waves hand*
>> >
>> >You do not have to see my badge.
>> >
>> >I do not have to see your badge.
>> >
>> >You are scared shitless.
>> >
>> >I am scared shitless.
>>
>> After guy leaves:
>>
>> "Wow what was that all about?"
>>
>> "Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
>>
>> "Wow who paid for it?"
>>
>> "I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
>>
>> "Say who's that coming?"
>>
>> "Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
>>
>> "Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
>>
>> "Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
>>
>> "Who?!"
>
>Well, Kenobi does not say who but... who? Him? I knew that guy...
He seems to be responding more to the "tell your Master part" than the
"Sifo-Dyas part".
>> But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
>> doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
>
>Well, usually when money are involved they should not care.
>Besides the Kamino guys are not risking their own lives on this one as the
>Trade Federation.
And when the Jedi finally come calling 10 years later they shouldn't
care then either?
>> >If my theory of Sifo-Dyas being a Shadow Jedi is true, then why should
>> >they think that this is not possible for a fellow jedi to do?
>>
>> Because a "fellow Jedi" is a fellow- he'd do what they would do. A
>> "fellow Jedi" wouldn't order a clone army.
>
>And Anakin would not turn to the dark side. He was a fellow previously.
But when he fell, he wasn't a fellow anymore. By calling Sifo-Dyas a
"fellow Jedi" it implies that he's still around (even if just in a
favorable memory) and still one of them.
>> And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
>
>The thing was forced.
Not much *of* a fellow now is he?
>> >> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
>> >> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the question
>> >> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
>> >
>> >Why would anyone put such an order?
>>
>> To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
>
>Or politicians... but... Jedi do stir up trouble, as Dooku does (we do know
>he IS a jedi).
FORMER Jedi. The Lost 20 LEFT the Jedi order so he's no longer a
"fellow Jedi".
>> Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
>> obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
>> now. So either:
>>
>> 1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
>> Force.
>
>Long term plan?
You think someone would just up and create a large Clone army on the
off chance that the Republic may need it someday?
Long-term planning like that doesn't get done by the Jedi- it's not
their job.
Someone had to KNOW something in order to do this.
>> 2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
>> executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
>> 3. both of the above
>
>It does not add up. If he could see the future why would he be so confident
>that his own enemies will use the army HE created? The future is in great
>motion.
It's a lure- an invitation for the enemy to come over to your house,
play with your toys, talk nice for a little while, and then when
they're all nice and comfy, you spring the trap on 'em.
With the element of surprise on your side, they'll never see it coming
and have no defense. You win.
>Palpy takes a tremendous risk here.
He always takes tremendous risks. Remember this is the same guy who
foresaw Luke Skywalker joining them. Look how that turned out.
"Overconfidence is your weakeness."
Palpatine knows (confidence thing here) he's gonna win so he can
afford to take these risks.
>> Only Sidious/Palpatine/Sifo-Dyas fits all the criteria, because a Jedi
>> would not have placed the order 10 years ago with the intent of
>> causing trouble, and its obvious that if the Dark Side is clouding up
>> the future to the Jedi, then only a Sith could have done this.
>
>Could it not be someone from the lost 20 that CAN still see the future and
>wants to help the jedi?
>Dooku wants to think so (despite the fact that he is with the bad guys).
Intentions can be good with the methods being wrong, it can often
cancel out any goodness that was intended.
Just because Dooku *wants* to *think* so, doesn't mean that it'll
happen or actually make it so.
And why would Dooku actually REALLY want to help the Jedi? He's a
Sith. His wanting to help is a lie.
>> Hence Yoda's comment. They could not see it coming 10 years ago and
>> they can't see what's coming now. Only the Sith can, and the Sith
>> obviously know something the Jedi don't. And the Sith knows this
>> because things are going forward and it ain't in the Jedis' favor.
>
>Yes, agreed. However there is still reason for argument.
>If you are so suspicious then why use the resources your enemy intended you
>to use?
Some people do it despite their suspicions and they get into trouble,
after all, they can go two ways: take it or leave it. They're not
exactly in a position to offer a third option.
They may also have been manipulated into thinking that there was no
other way. With the Force all clouded, they made their choice...albeit
a bad one.
>> >Yes, but the Jedi are not politicians.
>>
>> But they are being thown into the political arena unwillingly.
>
>That does not make them politicians. They are political tools yes.
It's guilt by association- you see it all the time in politics.
Lame example: Monica Lewinsky was not a politician but she was given
many of the same scrutinies. She's forever synonymous with politics
because of the political backlash her affair with Clinton caused.
True it doesn't actually make them politicians, but when they're
working that closely side by side, the greater populace of the galaxy
and the media don't give a rip. They eat at the same dinner table now.
>But they serve the greater cause, not petty things.
Is the Clone war a petty thing?
>> First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
>> with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
>> with Padme.
>
>They are used as tools, not as political powers themselves (think of the
>NATO or UN forces, these do not dictate politics).
But they are still associated with them, and closely at that.
Even I think "politics" when I hear "NATO".
Ambassadors may not be actual politicians per se, but they still have
to know and delve into it in order to conduct their business. Think
Joss Ackland's Ambassador character in Red October if you need to.
>> The Clone army is a political tool. If the Jedi use the Clone army,
>> then they are using a political tool and can be looked upon with many
>> of the same scrutinies as a politician.
>
>The clones are an army tool so far, not a political. Their use will be
>political when the empire arrives, if indeed the Stormies are clones, which
>I doubt.
But it's political NOW.
Palpatine, a politician, wanted an army and here it is! The Senate
thinks the politcian created it so the army becomes a political tool.
How can war *not* be about politics in some aspects? Polticians on
opposite sides royally don't agree on something and they go to war-
whether it be with troops or newspapers.
The Seperatists are trying to scede form the Republic- that's
political in and of itself. The Vietnam War was highly political. And
guess what? The army became synonymous with the wars and you can't
think of one without the other most of the time.
Again, it's the association.
>> >The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
>>
>> Score one for the Sith.
>
>But they have always doubts for the Sith (thus the Rebel Alliance).
An extremely small amount of people have doubts about the Sith *and
are able and willing to do something about it*. "Small band of
rebels". That means the greater galaxy sides with the Sith, at least
in public practice, and it's the public practice that matters most
when dealing with a large group of people because it's impossible to
know each and every single person's inner feelings about it. It's like
a public vote- you may hate both candidates, but when you vote for one
over the other, then you're in favor of that one you voted for.
When more people doubt the Jedi than the Sith (a disgused Sith anyway)
then the scales are still tipped in favor of the Sith. Sith got voted
in, Jedi got voted off.
>> >A cloned army, which in the end "is used" for the benefit of the Republic
>> >actually gives them a good name.
>>
>> "Is used" being in quotation means there's something else behind it.
>
>Yes, indeed.
So if there's something behind the "is used" part, then surely someon
would look into it. When the whole mess about a supposed Jedi placing
the order 10 years earlier comes up, someone will cry wolf. Then
doubts about the Jedi appear.
It's a set-up damned if you do/damned if you don't style.
>> Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
>> Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
>> against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
>
>We do not know exactly what Palpatine/Sidious has in store for them too.
Yes, we know he's gonna exterminate them, we just don't know the
particulars yet.
>> >Because Jedi are not politicians!
>>
>> (back up 2 answers)
>
>Back up you too...
I already answered that.
>> Now if only certain people around here would change their minds so
>> that I could see AOTC *this weekend*...
>
>Weekend? weekend? Not strong the force with this one...
Not my fault.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig says its too early in the day for this)
And its too early to *not* see AOTC dangit.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
wrote:
Thanks again!
>Oli"welcome"ver.
Sometimes I have to wonder if you change your birth certificate every
time too. :-)
>[my sig is too shy to say something herself but smiles sheepishly]
I didn't know your sig was a gal! Is she like a little sister to you?
<Pennysig says "HI!" to fellow female sig>
-Rainbow Heron
(sig and others say "HI" too and then wonder if they have genders)
I know Gaksig is a guy...most likely...
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
"Kothos" <kot...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3ce39892$0$2523$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Perhaps.
For the rest
<snip>
check my other post.
>For Vader this sequence does not hold, perhaps even he wanted to
> get away from being associated with Anakin Skywalker?
Still we do not know why he would be willing to do that...
unless he sees himself like Adolf, then anyone would have prefered a nick
like Adolf than
Stalin, I guess... ;)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> >> >> >The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine,
then
> >> >> >Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using
the
> >> >> >name Palpatine.
> >
> >> >They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
> >>
> >> Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
> >> them somehow?
> >
> >Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the
rank
> >of jedi.
> >They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
>
> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
> People can fake this kind of stuff. Hell, I could tell you I was
> Senator John McCain! I could even tell you I was Jane Doe Markenson
> and give you a whole big long bullsh*t history!
Not the same.
>
> But that doens't mean that I really am Senator John McCain or that
> Jane Doe Markenson even exists.
If I had met you in your State office, or in the Senate, then you would be
the one you claimed to be.
> I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
Then WHO is the dead guy that everyone knows? Chaplin?
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"mostly harmless" <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote in message
> As Iakovos says, he was member of the Jedi Council, so I think they
> _should_ recognise him.
He was not a member of the Jedi Council. However, he was a Jedi Master.
To get that title he had to face the Jedi Council.
> I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
> control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
Me too.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
news:32i7eu4n6545m3sro...@4ax.com...
> On 16 May 2002 11:17:26 GMT, mostly harmless
> <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
> >>>>>The existence of Sifo-Dyas means that he cannot be Sidious.
> >As Iokovas says, he was member of the Jedi Council,
Not a member, but a Jedi Master nonetheless.
> If someone could *please* give me an acutal quote from the book (page
> number) or movie on this stuff!!!
From the movie:
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
> It's not the actual Force itself they are losing control over, it's
> their ability to use it to their full potential because they are being
> blocked/clouded by the Dark Side.
Yes. Hard to see the dark side is.
Iakovos:)
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 16 May 2002 11:54:05 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>
>> >> >> >The problem with this is if we assume that Sidious is Palpatine,
>> >> >> >then Yoda et al would recognise him and wonder why Sifo-Dyas was using
>> >> >> >the name Palpatine.
>> >
>> >> >They know Sifo-Dyas in person, so they should recognize him.
>> >>
>> >> Did they come right out and say that or is only the name familliar to
>> >> them somehow?
>> >
>> >Sifo-Dyas is a master Jedi. The Jedi council appoints jedi knights the
>> >rank of jedi.
>> >They must have known him in person in order to hand him over the title.
>>
>> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
>
>Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
(else why are we debating it?).
Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
>> People can fake this kind of stuff. Hell, I could tell you I was
>> Senator John McCain! I could even tell you I was Jane Doe Markenson
>> and give you a whole big long bullsh*t history!
>
>Not the same.
Yes it is- we're talking about taking other people's names for
fraudulent purposes. I could claim to be anybody. Palpatine claimed to
be Sifo-Dyas.
(is it Sifo or Sido?)
>> But that doens't mean that I really am Senator John McCain or that
>> Jane Doe Markenson even exists.
>
>If I had met you in your State office, or in the Senate, then you would be
>the one you claimed to be.
Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber? How
about the Glactic Senate? No?
>> I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
>
>Then WHO is the dead guy that everyone knows? Chaplin?
Does it matter?!?! He's freaking DEAD!
The point is not who this guy *was* but who this guy (or at least the
guy who claims to be him) is *now*. The guy who put in the order! It's
*him* you should be worried about.
In other words:
Regardless of what happened before or whatever origin the original
Sifo-Dyas may or may not have had with the Jedi Council- the point I
was trying to make originally (and still am) is that right here, right
now, in Episode 2 the name "Sifo-Dyas" is being used by Chancellor
Palpatine aka Darth Sidious, and that by those same givens, at this
point in time, in history, in Episdoe 2- Sifo-Dyas IS
Sidious/Palpatine.
"Keep your concentration on the here and now where it belongs."
-Rainbow Heron
(sig hates it when dead people don't stay dead)
Sorry if all this sounded like a rant to you- that was *not* my
intent.
FuzzyHorror
jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin). Wouldn't it make
sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"? Sidious uses him to place
the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
user anymore, or a bit of both). If Dyas only initiated the order, it
wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
--
FuzzyHorror
And as if in answer there came from far away another note.
Horns, Horns, Horns In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed.
Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
-RotK Book V, Chapter IV
Chris Donnell
"FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
dave109
--
Dave Stein
President
Red Flag Scale Modelers
Visit us on the Web at...
http://rfsm.net/
You Need A Hobby! **To reply remove the little x in my address**
Kothos
> jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin). Wouldn't it make
> sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"? Sidious uses him to place
> the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
> for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
> user anymore, or a bit of both). If Dyas only initiated the order, it
> wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
> sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
See that all works for me. The only thing that I would still wonder about
is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or is
there more to it?
Kothos
FuzzyHorror
When I first heard the aliens say "Sifo-Dyas" I did think they were
saying a heavily accented "Sidious." However, I honestly can't see any
way for Palpatine and Sifo to be one and the same. AOTC is 10 years
after TPM (meaning TPM and Sifo's death happened roughly
simultaneously). Palpatine already had at least a fairly distinguished
career in Naboo politics (did he not? I haven't seen TPM in a while), or
at least enough that he didn't appear out of nowhere, and instantly
become the most important person in the galaxy.
I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
Maul. Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
Masters turning to the dark side.
>
> Kothos
iakovos
>
> "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
> > Am reading most of this thread.. It's obvious that Sidious is taking
> > jedi from under the council's nose (Dooku and Anakin).
Obvious.
>>Wouldn't it make
> > sense if Sifo-Dyas was another "fallen jedi"?
Yes, however we do not know.
>>Sidious uses him to place
> > the clone order, then for some reason or another he gets killed (by Sid
> > for knowing too much, or the council finds out Dyas isn't a light side
> > user anymore, or a bit of both).
The only problem lies in the assumption that Dyas is STILL alive.
>>If Dyas only initiated the order, it
> > wouldn't be hard for Sidious to maintain connections to the cloners by
> > sending other lackeys under orders by the then-deceased Dyas.
My suspicions lie in the assumption that the clones may have nothing to do
with Sidious in particular.
>
> See that all works for me. The only thing that I would still wonder about
> is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or is
> there more to it?
Disturbing the dark side is...
Iakovos:)
iakovos
>
>
> Kothos wrote:
> >
> > "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> > news:3CE47EF7...@i-55.com...
about
> > is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or
is
> > there more to it?
>
> When I first heard the aliens say "Sifo-Dyas" I did think they were
> saying a heavily accented "Sidious." However, I honestly can't see any
> way for Palpatine and Sifo to be one and the same.
Agreed.
>AOTC is 10 years
> after TPM (meaning TPM and Sifo's death happened roughly
> simultaneously).
Exactly.
> Palpatine already had at least a fairly distinguished
> career in Naboo politics (did he not? I haven't seen TPM in a while), or
> at least enough that he didn't appear out of nowhere, and instantly
> become the most important person in the galaxy.
>
> I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> Maul.
He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
Qui-Gon.
The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
>Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
> don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
> Masters turning to the dark side.
Or that they have Knights and Masters undercover.
Iakovos:)
FuzzyHorror
iakovos wrote:
>
> "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> news:3CE4F9A4...@i-55.com...
> >
> > I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> > Maul.
>
> He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
> Qui-Gon.
> The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
> And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
I agree with you, but more for timing reasons. Doesn't Palpatine become
Chancellor after Maul is already dead? I know he wouldn't necessarily
need those political powers, but they'd make things a darn sight easier.
It's been a while.. but do we get exposition saying they don't know who
Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
>
> >Obi-Wan seems satisfied for whatever the council tells him, and I
> > don't think the council would share the fact that they have Knights and
> > Masters turning to the dark side.
>
> Or that they have Knights and Masters undercover.
Tru Dat
alpha
about
> > is why the name "Sifo-Dyas" is so close to "Sidious". Coincidence, or
is
> > there more to it?
>
> Disturbing the dark side is...
lol that is hilarious... using the inbuilt metaphors in Star Wars to justify
the way it's plot devices works. Lucas could be called a genius ;)
-alpha
iakovos
"alpha" <dukenuk...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ac2rqh$rsh$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Lucas must be commented... for his lack of fate ;)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> On Thu, 16 May 2002 12:18:26 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
> >news:kvm6eu8dp7m18bl5o...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 16 May 2002 10:01:55 +0300, "iakovos"
> >> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >>
> >> First off, which ng are you posting from cuz I'd like to gt this thing
> >> off the cross-post.
> >
> >To both. Tell me which one you want and I'll stick with it :)
>
> RASSM please.
okidoki.
> >> >They do not have to assume if the guy just tells them so.
> >>
> >> So I could tell you that I am purple-eyed lizard and you would assume
> >> that I am telling you the truth?!
> >
> >If you looked like one, yes.
> >Does Clinton have to tell you that he was a president?
>
> If you're a little kid in a third-world country away from most other
> people and you've never even seen Clinton then hell yes.
The Kamino people do not look like 3 year olds.
But you have a point there. Still the Somalians (a third world country for
example)
knew of Americans in general.
Picture the Kamino Guys of hearing about Jedi in general.
> >> >Not necessary.
> >> >He just ordered 500.000 pieces of clones and hey, he's got the money
for
> >> >it in advance!
> >>
> >> Yes and that much money would be one way of proving the guy has power
> >> of some sort.
> >
> >Exactly. With money comes power.
>
> But why would a supposed Jedi use money to prove their power?
Phantom Menace. Credits will do fine...
> But why would a *Jedi* *do* that?!
Cause the Jedi are a tool of the republic.
>
> If a Jedi saw 10 years ago that an army was needed, he would have told
> the Repoublic about it. Not snuck off and placed an order and then
> spring it up on them 10 years later.
Unless he was a Jedi in hiding, or tracking something.
> >> After guy leaves:
> >>
> >> "Wow what was that all about?"
> >>
> >> "Well I have a pre-paid order here for a clone army."
> >>
> >> "Wow who paid for it?"
> >>
> >> "I dunno but he used the Force. He said he was Master somebody."
> >>
> >> "Say who's that coming?"
> >>
> >> "Obi-Wan Kenobi, he's a Jedi."
> >>
> >> "Oh! Well then he can tell this Force-user Master guy "hi" for us!"
> >>
> >> "Hey Kenobi! Tell Your Master we said 'hi' and thanks for the cash!"
> >>
> >> "Who?!"
> >
> >Well, Kenobi does not say who but... who? Him? I knew that guy...
>
> He seems to be responding more to the "tell your Master part" than the
> "Sifo-Dyas part".
>
> >> But are the Kamino guys cowards? Just cuz someone's intimidated
> >> doesn't mean they won't do their homework.
> >
> >Well, usually when money are involved they should not care.
> >Besides the Kamino guys are not risking their own lives on this one as
the
> >Trade Federation.
>
> And when the Jedi finally come calling 10 years later they shouldn't
> care then either?
They should not care about who made the order in the first place, as long as
they got the money.
> But when he fell, he wasn't a fellow anymore. By calling Sifo-Dyas a
> "fellow Jedi" it implies that he's still around (even if just in a
> favorable memory) and still one of them.
The bit of him being alive complicates things.
>
> >> And yet they accepted Anakin when they sensed much fear in him.
> >
> >The thing was forced.
>
> Not much *of* a fellow now is he?
>
> >> >> If Sifo-Dyas is a supposed Jedi (Sith aside), and this said supposed
> >> >> Jedi put in an order to create a clone army, then it begs the
question
> >> >> as to "why would a Jedi put in such an order?"
> >> >
> >> >Why would anyone put such an order?
> >>
> >> To stir up trouble. Jedi do not stir up trouble. Sith do.
> >
> >Or politicians... but... Jedi do stir up trouble, as Dooku does (we do
know
> >he IS a jedi).
>
> FORMER Jedi. The Lost 20 LEFT the Jedi order so he's no longer a
> "fellow Jedi".
That's too much linguistics. For the people of the republic his title of
Jedi (even former) comes first.
> >> Plus, if the order was placed 10 years before the time when they are
> >> obviously needed, then someone knew 10 years ago that they'd be needed
> >> now. So either:
> >>
> >> 1. the person who placed the order could see into the future using the
> >> Force.
> >
> >Long term plan?
>
> You think someone would just up and create a large Clone army on the
> off chance that the Republic may need it someday?
There must be something more that we are unaware of.
The clone army is not the main problem. The use of if by the Jedi
(especially Yoda) is.
> Long-term planning like that doesn't get done by the Jedi- it's not
> their job.
It's like hearing Yoda teaching LOL
> Someone had to KNOW something in order to do this.
For example: the creation of the Death Star in ANH. The emperor did not
create the death star to crush the rebel alliance. The empire just created
the Death Star on the off chance that the Empire may need it someday.
>
> >> 2. the person had an attack plan to stir up trouble which would be
> >> executed 10 years later exactly which would involved the clone army
> >> 3. both of the above
> >
> >It does not add up. If he could see the future why would he be so
confident
> >that his own enemies will use the army HE created? The future is in great
> >motion.
>
> It's a lure- an invitation for the enemy to come over to your house,
> play with your toys, talk nice for a little while, and then when
> they're all nice and comfy, you spring the trap on 'em.
It's an obvious trap (like Luke's trap) for even the Jedi to see.
> With the element of surprise on your side, they'll never see it coming
> and have no defense. You win.
That's true.
> >Palpy takes a tremendous risk here.
>
> He always takes tremendous risks. Remember this is the same guy who
> foresaw Luke Skywalker joining them. Look how that turned out.
>
> "Overconfidence is your weakeness."
>
> Palpatine knows (confidence thing here) he's gonna win so he can
> afford to take these risks.
And what about if the Jedi did not use the clones?
> Intentions can be good with the methods being wrong, it can often
> cancel out any goodness that was intended.
>
> Just because Dooku *wants* to *think* so, doesn't mean that it'll
> happen or actually make it so.
>
> And why would Dooku actually REALLY want to help the Jedi? He's a
> Sith. His wanting to help is a lie.
I am not talking about Dooku, I am talking about Sifo-Dyas (him being an
alive good guy).
> >That does not make them politicians. They are political tools yes.
>
> It's guilt by association- you see it all the time in politics.
They are not political figures. They have their own agenda to exercise.
> Lame example: Monica Lewinsky was not a politician but she was given
> many of the same scrutinies. She's forever synonymous with politics
> because of the political backlash her affair with Clinton caused.
Yes, but Monica Lewinsky's situation did not change the current political
status in your country.
> True it doesn't actually make them politicians, but when they're
> working that closely side by side, the greater populace of the galaxy
> and the media don't give a rip. They eat at the same dinner table now.
>
> >But they serve the greater cause, not petty things.
>
> Is the Clone war a petty thing?
Yes. The greater cause is the protection of the republic itself.
> >> First when Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as Ambassadors, and now
> >> with the Jedi and the Clone Wars. Not to mention Anakin travelling
> >> with Padme.
> >
> >They are used as tools, not as political powers themselves (think of the
> >NATO or UN forces, these do not dictate politics).
>
> But they are still associated with them, and closely at that.
>
> Even I think "politics" when I hear "NATO".
Cause NATO has been turned into a Political organization nowdays.
Bad example probably.
> Ambassadors may not be actual politicians per se, but they still have
> to know and delve into it in order to conduct their business. Think
> Joss Ackland's Ambassador character in Red October if you need to.
Ambassadors are politicians (more of political representatives).
However the Jedi Ambassadors are conducting their own actions.
They did not hesitate to attact the Trade Federation in order to get
results.
> But it's political NOW.
No, it is a military tool NOW.
> Palpatine, a politician, wanted an army and here it is!
An army, yes. A clone army... maybe no.
>The Senate
> thinks the politcian created it so the army becomes a political tool.
> How can war *not* be about politics in some aspects?
Cause when YOU fight is not about politics anymore.
>Polticians on
> opposite sides royally don't agree on something and they go to war-
> whether it be with troops or newspapers.
You are speaking about diplomacy. War and diplomacy are both tools.
One harder than the other. But the actual use of the clones in AOTC is
military at first.
> The Seperatists are trying to scede form the Republic- that's
> political in and of itself. The Vietnam War was highly political. And
> guess what? The army became synonymous with the wars and you can't
> think of one without the other most of the time.
Yes. Quite true. But there are more at stake than a mere breakthrough of the
republic.
The republic will be split in two.
>
> Again, it's the association.
Ok, good point.
>
> >> >The public seems to have doubts already about the Jedi.
> >>
> >> Score one for the Sith.
> >
> >But they have always doubts for the Sith (thus the Rebel Alliance).
>
> An extremely small amount of people have doubts about the Sith *and
> are able and willing to do something about it*. "Small band of
> rebels". That means the greater galaxy sides with the Sith, at least
> in public practice, and it's the public practice that matters most
> when dealing with a large group of people because it's impossible to
> know each and every single person's inner feelings about it. It's like
> a public vote- you may hate both candidates, but when you vote for one
> over the other, then you're in favor of that one you voted for.
Yes, but the Rebel Alliance grew day by day with more people/aliens coming
over.
People are happy when the empire is far far away (The Cloud city).
>
> When more people doubt the Jedi than the Sith (a disgused Sith anyway)
> then the scales are still tipped in favor of the Sith. Sith got voted
> in, Jedi got voted off.
Sith were cunningly voted in, Jedi were forced out.
> So if there's something behind the "is used" part, then surely someon
> would look into it. When the whole mess about a supposed Jedi placing
> the order 10 years earlier comes up, someone will cry wolf. Then
> doubts about the Jedi appear.
Ok. But the whole point is what is the purpose of such an army?
And two: are stormies clones?
>
> It's a set-up damned if you do/damned if you don't style.
>
> >> Whatever it is, the the Republic doesn't need to know about it until
> >> Ep3, and by then, Palpatine/Sidious/Sifo-Dyas will be using it all
> >> against the Jedi so he can give them the boot.
> >
> >We do not know exactly what Palpatine/Sidious has in store for them too.
>
> Yes, we know he's gonna exterminate them, we just don't know the
> particulars yet.
We do not know if he'll use the clones against them, and a new army of
regular people.
Instead of using regular people against the Jedi who are sided with the
clones.
Iakovos:)
Oliver J. Hanau
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>> OBI-WAN: They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for
>> a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years
>> ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that.
When I watched the movie again last night, just after sending this
message, I noticed that the line in the movie is, "They say that Master
Sifo-Dyas ..." Also, after that line Windu and Yoda exchange a knowing,
raised-eyebrow sorta look.
>> Oli"welcome"ver.
> Sometimes I have to wonder if you change your birth
> certificate every time too. :-)
Thanks to the Internym Balancing Act of 1993, I don't have to.
> I didn't know your sig was a gal! Is she like a little sister
> to you?
Sort of, although I would rather describe it as platonic.
Oliver.
> <Pennysig says "HI!" to fellow female sig>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig and others say "HI" too and then wonder if they have genders)
[sig blushes and waves]
iakovos
>
>
> iakovos wrote:
> >
> > "FuzzyHorror" <fuzzy...@i-55.com> wrote in message
> > news:3CE4F9A4...@i-55.com...
> > >
> > > I think it'd be funny to find out that Sifo-Dyas was actually Darth
> > > Maul.
> >
> > He cannot be Darth Maul cause Darth Maul would have been recognized by
> > Qui-Gon.
> > The assumption that Darth Maul is a Sith comes from Qui-Gon himself.
> > And Darth Maul is not known to Yoda and Mace as a former jedi Master.
>
> I agree with you, but more for timing reasons. Doesn't Palpatine become
> Chancellor after Maul is already dead?
More or less.
>I know he wouldn't necessarily
> need those political powers, but they'd make things a darn sight easier.
> It's been a while.. but do we get exposition saying they don't know who
> Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
> Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
That is a fact we do not know. Did they retrieve the body for analysis?
Iakovos:)
iakovos
Yes. But you are not considering the fact that Sifo-Dyas is Sifo-Dyas, the
most obvious one.
Then he being real and alive and placing the order makes the Jedi wonder
what's his involvement in all of this.
> Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
> which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
One of many :)
> Yes it is- we're talking about taking other people's names for
> fraudulent purposes. I could claim to be anybody. Palpatine claimed to
> be Sifo-Dyas.
And I would demand proof (or I would already have proof).
>
> (is it Sifo or Sido?)
> Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber? How
> about the Glactic Senate? No?
That's supposition. And they did not have to do that, he came personally to
them.
If he used a Jedi starship (the one Obi-wan uses), even a faked one, would
you believe that he was a Jedi?
Imagine yourself coming down the AF1 and waving...
>
> >> I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
> >
> >Then WHO is the dead guy that everyone knows? Chaplin?
>
> Does it matter?!?! He's freaking DEAD!
Is he?
>
> The point is not who this guy *was* but who this guy (or at least the
> guy who claims to be him) is *now*. The guy who put in the order! It's
> *him* you should be worried about.
Exactly.
>
> In other words:
>
> Regardless of what happened before or whatever origin the original
> Sifo-Dyas may or may not have had with the Jedi Council- the point I
> was trying to make originally (and still am) is that right here, right
> now, in Episode 2 the name "Sifo-Dyas" is being used by Chancellor
> Palpatine aka Darth Sidious, and that by those same givens, at this
> point in time, in history, in Episdoe 2- Sifo-Dyas IS
> Sidious/Palpatine.
That is the one of many. You are STILL ignoring the fact of someone NOT
masquerading as himself.
But being himself.
>
> "Keep your concentration on the here and now where it belongs."
"Be mindful of the future." LOL
> Sorry if all this sounded like a rant to you- that was *not* my
> intent.
Not at all, I am having a crack at this :D
Iakovos:)
Maaike
> Is Sifo-Dyas the q-tip guy that isn't on the council anymore?
Nope; that's Yarael Poof.
-Maaike
FuzzyHorror
FuzzyHorror wrote:
> Maul was? I doubt I'd recognize my best friend if he was tatooed like
> Maul; but the council would get a better look (plus dna analysis, etc)
Ack.. just reread this.. I would NOT recoginze my best friend if he was
tatooed like Maul...
Celaeno
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>That means by the end of Ep. II, Windu and Yoda know that the Jedi Master
>they knew as Sifo-Dyas is the Sith Master that they are up against, although
>they still don't know that it's Chancellor Palpatine.
>
>Does that make any sense?
Since the Jedi Master they knew as Sifo-Dyas died before the army was
ordered, my answer would have to be No.
Rakelle
--
There was an old man
From Peru, whose limericks
Were really haiku
Celaeno
>On Thu, 16 May 2002 23:38:27 +0300, "iakovos"
><indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
L
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>>> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
>>
>>Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
>
>I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
>is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
>the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
>
>If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
>the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
>fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
>
>If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
>enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
>the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
>(else why are we debating it?).
>
>Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
>which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
(It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
politician)
Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman) ordered the clone army,
using Sifo-Dyas' name for Jedi credibility - reports of his death
didn't spread too fast outside of Jedi circles, I presume, and Kamino
doesn't seem to have much contact with the rest of the galaxy anyway.
I thought it was pretty obvious that the one who placed the order
wasn't the real Sifo-Dyas, and that the real Sifo-Dyas was not
Palpatine. Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
only serves as a 'name prop'.
Celaeno
>Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in
>news:02c6euceap48jvnal...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 15 May 2002 11:12:47 GMT, mostly harmless
>> <tul...@OBVIOUSmindless.com> wrote:
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
>> So far they just seem confused as to whose identity is whose anbd the
>> only things they know for certain are that the Sith know stuff the
>> Jedi don't and that the Sith know the Jedi have the lower hand.
>
>I hope they explain this in III, Im confused as to how they have lost
>control of the force, nothing has explained that so far.
There seems to be something about the dark side clouding their minds.
Imagine how Yoda will feel when he finds out Sidious was right under
his nose, all the time.
Wonder who trained Sidious and how he managed to not be detected as a
child...
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
<gotta snip- I can't stand it anymore!!!>
>> >Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
>>
>> I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
>> is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
>> the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
>>
>> If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
>> the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
>> fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
>>
>> If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
>> enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
>> the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
>> (else why are we debating it?).
>
>Yes. But you are not considering the fact that Sifo-Dyas is Sifo-Dyas, the
>most obvious one.
>Then he being real and alive and placing the order makes the Jedi wonder
>what's his involvement in all of this.
But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
>> Yes it is- we're talking about taking other people's names for
>> fraudulent purposes. I could claim to be anybody. Palpatine claimed to
>> be Sifo-Dyas.
>
>And I would demand proof (or I would already have proof).
I asked you about proof and you did "You do not have to see my badge."
>> (is it Sifo or Sido?)
>
>> Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber? How
>> about the Glactic Senate? No?
>
>That's supposition. And they did not have to do that, he came personally to
>them.
>If he used a Jedi starship (the one Obi-wan uses), even a faked one, would
>you believe that he was a Jedi?
I'd still ask for ID when placing an order such as this.
So do *you* wanna see the ID or not?!
>> >> I still think it's this Sifo-Dyas is just a pseudo made up by Sidious.
>> >
>> >Then WHO is the dead guy that everyone knows? Chaplin?
>>
>> Does it matter?!?! He's freaking DEAD!
>
>Is he?
I believe so.
>> In other words:
>>
>> Regardless of what happened before or whatever origin the original
>> Sifo-Dyas may or may not have had with the Jedi Council- the point I
>> was trying to make originally (and still am) is that right here, right
>> now, in Episode 2 the name "Sifo-Dyas" is being used by Chancellor
>> Palpatine aka Darth Sidious, and that by those same givens, at this
>> point in time, in history, in Episdoe 2- Sifo-Dyas IS
>> Sidious/Palpatine.
>
>That is the one of many. You are STILL ignoring the fact of someone NOT
>masquerading as himself.
>But being himself.
So now Palpatine/Sidious, Dooku/Tyrannus, and Sifo-Dyas make a happy
threesome here?! I don't think so.
>> "Keep your concentration on the here and now where it belongs."
>
>"Be mindful of the future." LOL
"But not at the expense of the moment." ;-)
>> Sorry if all this sounded like a rant to you- that was *not* my
>> intent.
>
>Not at all, I am having a crack at this :D
I'm about to break my head if this keeps up. :-)
-Rainbow Heron
(sig tosses RH a helmet)
AH! Much better!
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Penny for your two cents?
Rainbow Heron
wrote:
So the guy IS really dead- now we know. Thank you!
>At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
Good guy personna was not this other guy in actuality so yeah.
>(It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
>then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
>politician)
Really!
>Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman) ordered the clone army,
>using Sifo-Dyas' name for Jedi credibility
Palpatine's more shadowy side yes.
>- reports of his death didn't spread too fast outside of Jedi circles, I presume, and Kamino
>doesn't seem to have much contact with the rest of the galaxy anyway.
Ah ha!
>I thought it was pretty obvious that the one who placed the order
>wasn't the real Sifo-Dyas, and that the real Sifo-Dyas was not
>Palpatine.
At least not the Palpatine the Senate knows and loves.
(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
>Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
>only serves as a 'name prop'.
THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
-Rainbow Heron
(sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
Thank you very very much for the facts!!!
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
I'm gonna kick their asses! And then I'm gonna kick their butts!
And when I'm done kicking their donkeys and cigarettes,
I'm gonna kick THEM!
Kothos
"Celaeno" <cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote in message
news:3ce5180e...@news.world-online.no...
> You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
[snip]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[spoiler snips]
[snip]
> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman) ordered the clone army,
> using Sifo-Dyas' name for Jedi credibility - reports of his death
> didn't spread too fast outside of Jedi circles, I presume, and Kamino
> doesn't seem to have much contact with the rest of the galaxy anyway.
Well that's a pretty good point anyway. Companies in the defence
industries, on the whole, tend to lie fairly low. Most defence contracts
are illegal, immoral or at the very least a matter of national security (or
in the case of Star Wars, planetary security). There are lots of reasons
for defence contractors not to advertise.
Kothos
Rainbow Heron
wrote:
>>> Oli"welcome"ver.
>
>> Sometimes I have to wonder if you change your birth
>> certificate every time too. :-)
>
>Thanks to the Internym Balancing Act of 1993, I don't have to.
YAY!
>> I didn't know your sig was a gal! Is she like a little sister
>> to you?
>
>Sort of, although I would rather describe it as platonic.
Is it a good sig?
>> <Pennysig says "HI!" to fellow female sig>
>
>> -Rainbow Heron
>> (sig and others say "HI" too and then wonder if they have genders)
>
>[sig blushes and waves]
<RH's sigs all wave>
<ng sig asks if OJH's sig wants to join the .Significant Rebellion>
Here we go again...
-Rainbow Heron
(sig says a partial site is already up)
Partial because I managed to escape.
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
> On Fri, 17 May 2002 16:00:45 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> <gotta snip- I can't stand it anymore!!!>
> >> >Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
> >>
> >> I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
> >> is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
> >> the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
> >>
> >> If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
> >> the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
> >> fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
> >>
> >> If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
> >> enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
> >> the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
> >> (else why are we debating it?).
> >
> >Yes. But you are not considering the fact that Sifo-Dyas is Sifo-Dyas,
the
> >most obvious one.
> >Then he being real and alive and placing the order makes the Jedi wonder
> >what's his involvement in all of this.
>
> But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
We do not know of if he was still a Jedi or not. And why not? Don't the
Jedi place orders?
> >And I would demand proof (or I would already have proof).
>
> I asked you about proof and you did "You do not have to see my badge."
See?
>
> >> (is it Sifo or Sido?)
> >
> >> Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber? How
> >> about the Glactic Senate? No?
> >
> >That's supposition. And they did not have to do that, he came personally
to
> >them.
> >If he used a Jedi starship (the one Obi-wan uses), even a faked one,
would
> >you believe that he was a Jedi?
>
> I'd still ask for ID when placing an order such as this.
They do not seem to ask Obi-Wan for ID.
> >Is he?
>
> I believe so.
Do they believe so?
> >That is the one of many. You are STILL ignoring the fact of someone NOT
> >masquerading as himself.
> >But being himself.
>
> So now Palpatine/Sidious, Dooku/Tyrannus, and Sifo-Dyas make a happy
> threesome here?! I don't think so.
We have to wait and see... hehe
>
> >> "Keep your concentration on the here and now where it belongs."
> >
> >"Be mindful of the future." LOL
>
> "But not at the expense of the moment." ;-)
"Not another lecture on economics" ;)
> >Not at all, I am having a crack at this :D
>
> I'm about to break my head if this keeps up. :-)
Break a leg, sounds less painful.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
So the guy IS NOT really dead- now we know less. Thank you!
Obi-wan says that he died 10 years ago, twice.
However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
>
> >At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
>
> Good guy personna was not this other guy in actuality so yeah.
>
> >(It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
> >then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
> >politician)
>
> Really!
>
> >Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman) ordered the clone army,
> >using Sifo-Dyas' name for Jedi credibility
>
> Palpatine's more shadowy side yes.
>
> >- reports of his death didn't spread too fast outside of Jedi circles, I
presume, and Kamino
> >doesn't seem to have much contact with the rest of the galaxy anyway.
>
> Ah ha!
>
> >I thought it was pretty obvious that the one who placed the order
> >wasn't the real Sifo-Dyas, and that the real Sifo-Dyas was not
> >Palpatine.
>
> At least not the Palpatine the Senate knows and loves.
>
> (Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
>
> >Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
> >only serves as a 'name prop'.
>
> THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
Does he? Is he only a name prop? Or is he a true believer of the Sith cause?
>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
>
> Thank you very very much for the facts!!!
What facts?
Iakovos:)
iakovos
>
> >On Thu, 16 May 2002 23:38:27 +0300, "iakovos"
> ><indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
> >>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
>
> L
>
>
> A
>
>
> D
>
>
> E
>
>
> E
>
>
> D
>
>
> A
>
>
> >>> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
> >>
> >>Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
> >
> >I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
> >is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
> >the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
> >
> >If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
> >the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
> >fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
> >Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
> >which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
We do not know that... yet.
> Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
> At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
> (It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
> then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
> politician).
Well, there is no clue available for him being still DEAD.
Yoda and Windu would have replied: No, he's dead, there is another behind
this plot.
BUT they do say... bring him, we will question him...
> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman)
Or a new villain... hehe...
>ordered the clone army,
> using Sifo-Dyas' name for Jedi credibility - reports of his death
> didn't spread too fast outside of Jedi circles, I presume, and Kamino
> doesn't seem to have much contact with the rest of the galaxy anyway.
>
> I thought it was pretty obvious that the one who placed the order
> wasn't the real Sifo-Dyas,
Not obvious. We do not know and Obi-wan's Bond theatrics do not help here.
Iakovos:)
Celaeno
>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
>-Rainbow Heron
>(sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
Waitafrigginminute.
You haven't seen or read the story?!
Celaeno
>http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/episode-ii/sith.asp
And, pray tell, why should I take their word for it?
Rainbow Heron
wrote:
>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>
>>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
>
>Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
>knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
Different yes, but it allows you more perks and freedoms to do
something that a nameless/unknown person can't. You steal the name,
and you also steal the reputation etc.
>>-Rainbow Heron
>>(sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
>
>Waitafrigginminute.
>
>You haven't seen or read the story?!
I'm currently on page 249 right now.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig is floored by how fast RH is reading this book)
I'm not allowed to see the movie until we've moved a good deal of
stuff into the new house...that'll be another week or two at the
least. :-(
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:4p8beusu8s1m0kdvu...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 23:47:36 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>> >
>> >>On Thu, 16 May 2002 23:38:27 +0300, "iakovos"
>> >><indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>> >>>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >L
>> >
>> >
>> >A
>> >
>> >
>> >D
>> >
>> >
>> >E
>> >
>> >
>> >E
>> >
>> >
>> >D
>> >
>> >
>> >A
>> >
>> >
>> >>>> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is
>> >>>> real!
>> >>>
>> >>>Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
>> >>
>> >>I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
>> >>is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
>> >>the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
>> >>
>> >>If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
>> >>the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
>> >>fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
>> >>
>> >>If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
>> >>enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
>> >>the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
>> >>(else why are we debating it?).
>> >>
>> >>Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
>> >>which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
>> >
>> >
>> >Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
>>
>> So the guy IS really dead- now we know. Thank you!
>
>So the guy IS NOT really dead- now we know less. Thank you!
>Obi-wan says that he died 10 years ago, twice.
WTF?! Did you mis-read, mis-type, or are you arguing?
>However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
??? Where on earth did you get this? That's not what the book says.
>> >Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
>> >only serves as a 'name prop'.
>>
>> THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
>
>Does he? Is he only a name prop? Or is he a true believer of the Sith cause?
Palpatine/Sidious is using the name as a prop yes.
>> -Rainbow Heron
>> (sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
>>
>> Thank you very very much for the facts!!!
>
>What facts?
<groan>
Would you rather I quote the whole scene from the book? It's got a
heap more info than the screenplay you quoted.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig says RH just finished the book)
Yes I decided to read the novel first.
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:uo8beuoteggo0ket3...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 16:00:45 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>>
>> <gotta snip- I can't stand it anymore!!!>
>> >> >Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
>> >>
>> >> I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
>> >> is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
>> >> the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
>> >>
>> >> If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
>> >> the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
>> >> fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
>> >>
>> >> If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious and has always been Sidious, then he's alive
>> >> enough to place the order. How Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace actually know
>> >> the name is something no one (us fans) knows for certain obviously
>> >> (else why are we debating it?).
>> >
>> >Yes. But you are not considering the fact that Sifo-Dyas is Sifo-Dyas,
>> >the most obvious one.
>> >Then he being real and alive and placing the order makes the Jedi wonder
>> >what's his involvement in all of this.
>>
>> But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
>
>We do not know of if he was still a Jedi or not.
Well the real Sifo-Dyas didn't leave the Jedi order so yes he was
still a Jedi.
The final option would be that Dooku is used the name Sifo-Dyas to
place the order, but somehow I don't think so because he was
"perplexed" by the arrival of the clone army.
>And why not? Don't the Jedi place orders?
Not for clone armies!
>> >And I would demand proof (or I would already have proof).
>>
>> I asked you about proof and you did "You do not have to see my badge."
>
>See?
Whether they actually saw it or not, I would still ask for it.
>> >> (is it Sifo or Sido?)
>> >
>> >> Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber? How
>> >> about the Glactic Senate? No?
>> >
>> >That's supposition. And they did not have to do that, he came personally
>> >to them.
>> >If he used a Jedi starship (the one Obi-wan uses), even a faked one,
>> >would you believe that he was a Jedi?
>>
>> I'd still ask for ID when placing an order such as this.
>
>They do not seem to ask Obi-Wan for ID.
Yes they did- he transmitted his ID to them when they hailed his ship.
On p120 (hey I can use page numbers now! Makes things SO much
easier!):
"His computer registered a transmission directed his way, asking for
identification, and he flipped his signal beacon on, transferring all
the information.."
>>
>> I believe so.
>
>Do they believe so?
Don't snip that please- I had to go back to a previous post.
Yes the original Sifo-Dyas guy is dead. End of story.
As for Sidious, he must have been sitting around trying to think of a
pseudo to use to place the order and came up with this guy's name 9and
thus this guy's reputations too).
>> >Not at all, I am having a crack at this :D
>>
>> I'm about to break my head if this keeps up. :-)
>
>Break a leg, sounds less painful.
It is, but I need to be able to get downstairs easily.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig says we won't have to live in a semi-2 storied house for much
longer tho)
If only we had an elevator...
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
>"Celaeno" <cel...@choklit.nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:3ce5180e...@news.world-online.no...
>> You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>>
>> >On Thu, 16 May 2002 23:38:27 +0300, "iakovos"
>> ><indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>> >>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
>>
>> L
>>
>>
>> A
>>
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>> E
>>
>>
>> E
>>
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>> A
>>
>>
>> >>> I know that but you're still assuming that this Sifo-Dyas guy is real!
>> >>
>> >>Well, he IS real for Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace.
>> >
>> >I'm talking about the Sifo-Dyas guy who placed the clone order. If he
>> >is Sidious/Palpatine (which I believe he is) then he has to be real in
>> >the sense that he was alive enough to place the order.
>> >
>> >If Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who died and Sidious stole his ID, then
>> >the guy the Jedi knew is dead (and thus no longer real) and the
>> >fraudulent guy (Sidious) is alive.
>
>> >Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
>> >which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
>
>We do not know that... yet.
And the yet is the reason for the speculation.
>> Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
>> At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
>> (It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
>> then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
>> politician).
>
>Well, there is no clue available for him being still DEAD.
>Yoda and Windu would have replied: No, he's dead, there is another behind
>this plot.
>BUT they do say... bring him, we will question him...
According to the novel, it's Jango they say to bring in.
>> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman)
>
>Or a new villain... hehe...
Highly doubtful.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig wants to see the movie for novel vs movie comparisons)
Me too sig, me too...
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
iakovos
OF COURSE I am arguing.
>
> >However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
>
> ??? Where on earth did you get this? That's not what the book says.
Well, the novelization is not canon. In the movie we do not get any info on
this.
Yoda and Mace do not say, yes he's dead, find the real villain. They say
let's question him.
>
> >> >Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
> >> >only serves as a 'name prop'.
> >>
> >> THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
> >
> >Does he? Is he only a name prop? Or is he a true believer of the Sith
cause?
>
> Palpatine/Sidious is using the name as a prop yes.
We do not know that... yet.
> <groan>
Hope you are not imitating a Wampa... :D
> Would you rather I quote the whole scene from the book?
Please do... hehe
> It's got a
> heap more info than the screenplay you quoted.
It seems to me that you put much faith in the book. The movie is different.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
Didn't leave the order as long as he was alive. We do not know what he did
after his alleged death.
> The final option would be that Dooku is used the name Sifo-Dyas to
> place the order, but somehow I don't think so because he was
> "perplexed" by the arrival of the clone army.
>
> >And why not? Don't the Jedi place orders?
>
> Not for clone armies!
Well, someone did... as a Jedi, if he was a real Jedi we do not have that
info yet.
> >> >> (is it Sifo or Sido?)
> >> >
> >> >> Did the Kamino guys meet Sifo-Dyas in the Jedi Council's chamber?
How
> >> >> about the Glactic Senate? No?
> >> >
> >> >That's supposition. And they did not have to do that, he came
personally
> >> >to them.
> >> >If he used a Jedi starship (the one Obi-wan uses), even a faked one,
> >> >would you believe that he was a Jedi?
> >>
> >> I'd still ask for ID when placing an order such as this.
> >
> >They do not seem to ask Obi-Wan for ID.
>
> Yes they did- he transmitted his ID to them when they hailed his ship.
> On p120 (hey I can use page numbers now! Makes things SO much
> easier!):
>
> "His computer registered a transmission directed his way, asking for
> identification, and he flipped his signal beacon on, transferring all
> the information.."
>
Well, the movie is different. When he enters the Kamino space he lands and
then
goes to the door. (He does not transmit anything as he is trying to keep a
low profile, search the Kamino city without any interference from the
locals).
But the door opens and someone is already expecting him.
He looks puzzled when he is told "we were expecting you".
Expecting me? He says... if he had already sent his ID to them why he looks
puzzled now?
> >>
> >> I believe so.
> >
> >Do they believe so?
>
> Don't snip that please- I had to go back to a previous post.
>
> Yes the original Sifo-Dyas guy is dead. End of story.
We do not know, movie wise. The book can say anything.
>
> As for Sidious, he must have been sitting around trying to think of a
> pseudo to use to place the order and came up with this guy's name 9and
> thus this guy's reputations too).
>
> >> >Not at all, I am having a crack at this :D
> >>
> >> I'm about to break my head if this keeps up. :-)
> >
> >Break a leg, sounds less painful.
>
> It is, but I need to be able to get downstairs easily.
Use the force.
>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig says we won't have to live in a semi-2 storied house for much
> longer tho)
>
> If only we had an elevator...
and a bomb...
Iakovos:)
iakovos
For mine too... but you cannot always use the Sidious is Sifo as a punch
line, when it is still a speculation.
And the death of Sifo, that is a speculation too now, as we do not get any
info on this (except the book, which is not canon).
> >> Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
> >> At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
> >> (It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
> >> then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
> >> politician).
> >
> >Well, there is no clue available for him being still DEAD.
> >Yoda and Windu would have replied: No, he's dead, there is another behind
> >this plot.
> >BUT they do say... bring him, we will question him...
>
> According to the novel, it's Jango they say to bring in.
According to the MOVIE, it's Sifo-Dyas they want.
Even if it is bad dialogue, they want Sifo, not Jango.
> >> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman)
> >
> >Or a new villain... hehe...
>
> Highly doubtful.
Dooku is a new villain.
>
> -Rainbow Heron
> (sig wants to see the movie for novel vs movie comparisons)
>
> Me too sig, me too...
You better do it fast :)
Iakovos:)
Celaeno
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:uo8beuoteggo0ket3...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 16:00:45 +0300, "iakovos"
>> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>> >Yes. But you are not considering the fact that Sifo-Dyas is Sifo-Dyas,
>the
>> >most obvious one.
>> >Then he being real and alive and placing the order makes the Jedi wonder
>> >what's his involvement in all of this.
>>
>> But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
>
>We do not know of if he was still a Jedi or not. And why not? Don't the
>Jedi place orders?
Ok, so why don't you know that the original Sifo-Dyas (aka the one who
died before the order was placed in his name) is a Jedi, when he is
called a Jedi in the movie?
Celaeno
>On Sat, 18 May 2002 23:38:57 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
>wrote:
>
>>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>>
>>>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
>>
>>Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
>>knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
>
>Different yes, but it allows you more perks and freedoms to do
>something that a nameless/unknown person can't. You steal the name,
>and you also steal the reputation etc.
The problem is when your REAL persona is already well known, as is the
case with Palpatine. You can't have two well known personas with long
public histories and well known faces.
>>>-Rainbow Heron
>>>(sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
>>
>>Waitafrigginminute.
>>
>>You haven't seen or read the story?!
>
>I'm currently on page 249 right now.
So, were you spoiled rotten before starting in on this thread, or had
you read that far in the book?
Celaeno
>
>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>news:4p8beusu8s1m0kdvu...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 17 May 2002 23:47:36 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>> >
>> >>On Thu, 16 May 2002 23:38:27 +0300, "iakovos"
>> >><indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>"Rainbow Heron" <rainbo...@ftc-i.net> wrote in message
>> >>>news:t4h7euo07n9oavljq...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >L
>> >
>> >
>> >A
>> >
>> >
>> >D
>> >
>> >
>> >E
>> >
>> >
>> >E
>> >
>> >
>> >D
>> >
>> >
>> >A
>> >
>> >
>> >>Either way, Sidious is using the name "Sifo-Dyas" to place the order,
>> >>which is my original point (and now we've gotten side-tracked).
>> >
>> >
>> >Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
>>
>> So the guy IS really dead- now we know. Thank you!
>
>So the guy IS NOT really dead- now we know less. Thank you!
>Obi-wan says that he died 10 years ago, twice.
>However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
How can you say that?
>> >Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
>> >only serves as a 'name prop'.
>>
>> THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
>
>Does he? Is he only a name prop? Or is he a true believer of the Sith cause?
*sigh*
Just drop the Sifo-Dyas = Sidious theory, at least. I'm asking nicely.
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
Celaeno (Rakelle) just gave you the facts as we all know it and it
jivves with both the book and the movie! What more do you want?
>> >However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
>>
>> ??? Where on earth did you get this? That's not what the book says.
>
>Well, the novelization is not canon.
Ok time out.
There are many many many people who *do* consider the novelizations of
the movies to be canon. Please be considerate here.
>Yoda and Mace do not say, yes he's dead, find the real villain. They say
>let's question him.
Question Jango, not Sifo-Dyas.
<snip>
>> Would you rather I quote the whole scene from the book?
>
>Please do... hehe
"hehe"?! You're not mocking me are you? I do respect your side of the
issue, just so you know.
(starting on page p235 and ending on 237)
"They are using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett to create a
clone army."
"An army?" Mace repeated.
"For the Republic," came Obi-Wan's startling answer. "What's
more, I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is behind the
plot to assassinate Senator Amidala."
"Do you think these cloners are involved in that, as well?"
"No, Master, there appears to be no motive."
"Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan," Yoda advised. "Clear, your
mind must be if you are to discover the real villian behind this
plot."
"Yes, Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has
informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for
delivery. He also wanted me to remind you that if we requre more-and
they've another million well on the way to completion-it will take
more time to grow them."
"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.
"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for
the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he
was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of
a clone army?"
"No," Mace answered without hesitation, and without even
looking to Yoda for confirmation. "WHoever placed that order did not
have the authorizartion of the Jedi Council."
"Then how? And why?"
"The mystery deepens," Mace said. "And it is one that needs
unraveling, for more reasons than the safety of Senator Amidala."
"The clones are impressive, Master," Obi-Wan explained. "They
have been created and trained for one purpose alone."
"Into custody, take this Jango Fett," Yoda instructed. "Bring
him here. Question him, we will."
"Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him." Obi-Wan
glanced over his shoulder again and abruptly instructed R4 to cut the
transmission.
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the
hologram had gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"
"When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said,
and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then
Sifo-Dyas must have place it right before he died.
"If this Jango Fett was involved in trying to kill the
Senator, and just happened to be chosen as the source for a clone
army, created for the Republic..." Mace Windu stopped and shook his
head. The coincidence was to great for those two items to be simple
chance. But how could one tie in with other? Was it possible that
whoever decided to create the clone army was afraid that Senator
Amidala would be a strong enough voice to prevent that army from being
used?
The Jedi Master rubbed a hand over his forehead and looked to
Yoda, who sat with this eyes closed. Probably contemplating the same
riddles as he was, Mace knew. And equally troubled, if not more so.
"Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could
not see," Yoda remarked.
"I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to
use the Force has diminished."
"Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakeness," Yoda
replied. "If informed the Senate is, mulitply our adversaries will."
For the two Jedi Masters, the surplrising development was
troubling on several different levels.
* * *
>> It's got a
>> heap more info than the screenplay you quoted.
>
>It seems to me that you put much faith in the book. The movie is different.
The novel is an extension of the movie. It tells you what the movie
did not. They are two different mediums (book and movie) and they
compliiment each other.
There is not rule that says you have to know both, but do not discount
one over the other as many people do consider the movie novelizations
to be canon.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig considers both the movie and its novel to be canon)
And so do I sig.
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
<snip>
>> >> But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
>> >
>> >We do not know of if he was still a Jedi or not.
>>
>> Well the real Sifo-Dyas didn't leave the Jedi order so yes he was
>> still a Jedi.
>
>Didn't leave the order as long as he was alive. We do not know what he did
>after his alleged death.
True. But a Jedi still would not have placed the order. It doesn't
jive with who the Jedi are. Mace and Yoda feel this same way.
>> The final option would be that Dooku is used the name Sifo-Dyas to
>> place the order, but somehow I don't think so because he was
>> "perplexed" by the arrival of the clone army.
>>
>> >And why not? Don't the Jedi place orders?
>>
>> Not for clone armies!
>
>Well, someone did... as a Jedi, if he was a real Jedi we do not have that
>info yet.
The real Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi (I have read the book now and
that's what it says).
The "Sifo-Dyas" who placed the order could not have been the real one
because it is so out of character and out of place for a Jedi. The one
who placed the order was using this name as a psuedo.
I have said this a million times before and I am not saying it again.
Let's move on shall we? PLEASE?!
<snip>
>> On p120 (hey I can use page numbers now! Makes things SO much
>> easier!):
>>
>> "His computer registered a transmission directed his way, asking for
>> identification, and he flipped his signal beacon on, transferring all
>> the information.."
>>
>
>Well, the movie is different. When he enters the Kamino space he lands and
>then goes to the door. (He does not transmit anything as he is trying to keep a
>low profile, search the Kamino city without any interference from the
>locals).
>But the door opens and someone is already expecting him.
>He looks puzzled when he is told "we were expecting you".
>Expecting me? He says... if he had already sent his ID to them why he looks
>puzzled now?
Just because you tell someone who you are doesn't mean they've been
waiting for you. He was expecting them to come up and say something
along the lines of "How can we help you?" not "We were expecting you."
People *do* drop in unexpectedly.
>> >> I believe so.
>> >
>> >Do they believe so?
>>
>> Don't snip that please- I had to go back to a previous post.
>>
>> Yes the original Sifo-Dyas guy is dead. End of story.
>
>We do not know, movie wise. The book can say anything.
No we don't but whether you think the book canon or not, you cannot
rule it out.
>> -Rainbow Heron
>> (sig says we won't have to live in a semi-2 storied house for much
>> longer tho)
>>
>> If only we had an elevator...
>
>and a bomb...
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
-Rainbow Heron
(sig doesn't want no stinkin' bombs)
Y'know you've been getting more aggressive in your last couple of
posts...
==========================================
http://web.infoave.net/~rkanderson/rassm/swc.htm
Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
wrote:
>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>
>>On Sat, 18 May 2002 23:38:57 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>>>
>>>>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
>>>
>>>Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
>>>knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
>>
>>Different yes, but it allows you more perks and freedoms to do
>>something that a nameless/unknown person can't. You steal the name,
>>and you also steal the reputation etc.
>
>The problem is when your REAL persona is already well known, as is the
>case with Palpatine. You can't have two well known personas with long
>public histories and well known faces.
Sidious/Palpatine only used the Sifo-Dyas psuedo to place the order.
The name doesn't appear anyplace else (except for Obi-Wan running some
of these same quesitons thru his head) so as far as I can tell, this
was an isolated incident.
It happens.
>>>>-Rainbow Heron
>>>>(sig tells RH to go ahead and read the novel before seeing the movie)
>>>
>>>Waitafrigginminute.
>>>
>>>You haven't seen or read the story?!
>>
>>I'm currently on page 249 right now.
>
>So, were you spoiled rotten before starting in on this thread, or had
>you read that far in the book?
I was maybe 80% spoiled as far as the movie was (I'm not doing that
again), but I never heard of Sifo-Dyas until this thread started and
at that point it (from my point of view anyway) the speculation/debate
was about "why would someone use a psuedo?" and stuff like that.
That's what I was basing my side of it on.
I started reading the book after we started getting into particulars
and I finished it this afternoon.
-Rainbow Heron
(sig says the book was GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD)
And reading the book has not changed my mind on the issue.
==========================================
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Rainbow Heron's Sith War Characters Page
==========================================
Rainbow Heron
<indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
I'm not using it as a "punch line"! I really do think that Sifo-Dyas =
Sidious.
If you can't show *respect* for my side then shut up. At least I'm
trying to be a bit open here but the the logics to me so far point to
that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious.
If I am proved wrong by Episode 3 (or if it never comes up again) then
I will concede that.
I've already explained my side of the issue and since we're not
getting anywhere to the point I'm now having to repeat myself to you,
then let's please drop it.
>And the death of Sifo, that is a speculation too now, as we do not get any
>info on this (except the book, which is not canon).
As I already explained. May of us DO count the book as canon. Again
show a little respect here.
>> >> Sifo-Dyas was real. He was a Jedi. More than ten years ago, he died.
>> >> At that point, Palpatine was senator of Naboo, aka not Sifo-Dyas.
>> >> (It'd be pretty far fetched to have Sifo-Dyas fake his own death and
>> >> then brainwash the entire galaxy into thinking he was a veteran Naboo
>> >> politician).
>> >
>> >Well, there is no clue available for him being still DEAD.
>> >Yoda and Windu would have replied: No, he's dead, there is another behind
>> >this plot.
>> >BUT they do say... bring him, we will question him...
>>
>> According to the novel, it's Jango they say to bring in.
>
>According to the MOVIE, it's Sifo-Dyas they want.
>Even if it is bad dialogue, they want Sifo, not Jango.
Fine!
>> >> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman)
>> >
>> >Or a new villain... hehe...
>>
>> Highly doubtful.
>
>Dooku is a new villain.
But Dooku isn't Sifo-Dyas. He's not handling that side of the plan.
>> -Rainbow Heron
>> (sig wants to see the movie for novel vs movie comparisons)
>>
>> Me too sig, me too...
>
>You better do it fast :)
I'm trying!!!!!!
-Rainbow Heron
(sig wants to see it but can't right now)
Sheesh.
IWCFVB
>Even if it is bad dialogue, they want Sifo, not Jango.
No, according to the MOVIE, it is Jango they want. Anyone with half a brain
would realize that. Yoda and Mace think Sifo is dead numb-nuts, why would they
ask Obi-Wan to bring him in? Also, why do you think Obi-Wan tries to capture
Fett? And the dialogue isn't that confusing; I don't know why people are
complaining. Its quite clear from the dialogue there that they want Fett, NOT
Sifo, so get a clue and stop picking on people.
-Jeff
iakovos
Cause Yoda and Mace do not say Sifo-Dyas is dead, find the real villain or
something similar.
They say bring him, we want to question HIM, the "him" a reference to Sifo,
not Jango.
>
> >> >Who the real Sifo-Dyas was doesn't really matter, as he
> >> >only serves as a 'name prop'.
> >>
> >> THANK YOU!!! <whew!>
> >
> >Does he? Is he only a name prop? Or is he a true believer of the Sith
cause?
>
> *sigh*
> Just drop the Sifo-Dyas = Sidious theory, at least. I'm asking nicely.
My theory is not the Sifo-Dyas=Sidious.
My theory is the Sifo-Dyas=Sifo-Dyas.
You are not paying attention, young pedawan.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
I don't follow. We know that Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi prior to his death.
We do not know what he did afterwards (after his alleged death).
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
>
> >On Sat, 18 May 2002 23:38:57 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
> >>
> >>>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
> >>
> >>Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
> >>knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
> >
> >Different yes, but it allows you more perks and freedoms to do
> >something that a nameless/unknown person can't. You steal the name,
> >and you also steal the reputation etc.
>
> The problem is when your REAL persona is already well known, as is the
> case with Palpatine. You can't have two well known personas with long
> public histories and well known faces.
That's my entire reason why I created this thread. Cause Sifo is a real
persona.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> On Sun, 19 May 2002 23:37:08 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
> wrote:
>
> >You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
> >
> >>On Sat, 18 May 2002 23:38:57 GMT, cel...@choklit.nospam.org (Celaeno)
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>You will not evade me, Rainbow Heron <rainbo...@ftc-i.net>:
> >>>
> >>>>(Palpatine = Sidious camp here)
> >>>
> >>>Well yes, that one is three years old. And having an alter ego nobody
> >>>knows is quite different from having an alter ego everybody knows.
> >>
> >>Different yes, but it allows you more perks and freedoms to do
> >>something that a nameless/unknown person can't. You steal the name,
> >>and you also steal the reputation etc.
> >
> >The problem is when your REAL persona is already well known, as is the
> >case with Palpatine. You can't have two well known personas with long
> >public histories and well known faces.
>
> Sidious/Palpatine only used the Sifo-Dyas psuedo to place the order.
Movie-wise we do not know.
> The name doesn't appear anyplace else (except for Obi-Wan running some
> of these same quesitons thru his head) so as far as I can tell, this
> was an isolated incident.
Do not pressume anything.
> It happens.
No, it doesn't.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
And I really think that GL is more clever than to have such a simple twist
about Sidious.
> If you can't show *respect* for my side then shut up. At least I'm
> trying to be a bit open here but the the logics to me so far point to
> that Sifo-Dyas is Sidious.
I DO show respect. Have I called you any bad names? No.
But you tell me to shut up. That's not polite :p
But in my argument about Sifo being Sifo all you have to say no, Sifo is
Sidious, that's clear. What I am saying is that IT IS NOT clear.
> If I am proved wrong by Episode 3 (or if it never comes up again) then
> I will concede that.
Of course. Same here. No reason to tear your heart out... ;)
> I've already explained my side of the issue and since we're not
> getting anywhere to the point I'm now having to repeat myself to you,
> then let's please drop it.
And I have already explained mine. Let's not drop it, till you see the
actual movie.
Then you'll see my point of view.
> >And the death of Sifo, that is a speculation too now, as we do not get
any
> >info on this (except the book, which is not canon).
>
> As I already explained. May of us DO count the book as canon. Again
> show a little respect here.
And as I have said, I *DO* show respect here. Even if we consider the fact
that the book IS canon, the excerpt you indicated adds more speculation
about Sifo's death, than actually saying that he IS dead.
> >> >Well, there is no clue available for him being still DEAD.
> >> >Yoda and Windu would have replied: No, he's dead, there is another
behind
> >> >this plot.
> >> >BUT they do say... bring him, we will question him...
> >>
> >> According to the novel, it's Jango they say to bring in.
I have answered that. Till you see the movie...
> >According to the MOVIE, it's Sifo-Dyas they want.
> >Even if it is bad dialogue, they want Sifo, not Jango.
>
> Fine!
Okidoki...
>
> >> >> Chancellor Palpatine (or a suitable henchman)
> >> >
> >> >Or a new villain... hehe...
> >>
> >> Highly doubtful.
> >
> >Dooku is a new villain.
>
> But Dooku isn't Sifo-Dyas. He's not handling that side of the plan.
Exactly... we do not know who is on the other side of the plan, we can only
speculate.
> >You better do it fast :)
>
> I'm trying!!!!!!
Not try, do or do not :)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
Ok, time out. What I am saying is that in the movie there is no info
available about the death of Sifo-Dyas.
Yoda and Mace do not seem to be surprized when they hear his name, like they
know that he may be actually alive.
>
> >> >However Yoda and Mace do not concur on the findings.
> >>
> >> ??? Where on earth did you get this? That's not what the book says.
> >
> >Well, the novelization is not canon.
>
> Ok time out.
>
> There are many many many people who *do* consider the novelizations of
> the movies to be canon. Please be considerate here.
Even if we do consider them canon, they have plot twists not canon to the
Star Wars universe in the movies.
A reference to the Obi-wan/Owen Lars debate for example.
There seems to be no relation after all with both of them, however the
novelization of ROTJ tells that they are brothers. This strikes completely
as out of place, now that we know that Luke's uncle is indeed Luke's Uncle.
I have enjoyed reading the novels for the OT. However there is seem to be a
slight difference from movie to book to vice versa.
> >Yoda and Mace do not say, yes he's dead, find the real villain. They say
> >let's question him.
>
> Question Jango, not Sifo-Dyas.
In the movie they seem to be concentrated on Sifo, not Jango.
The very actions of Obi-Wan's prove it anyway. He's putting a tracking
device on Jango's ship in order to find out where he's heading, in the hope
of meeting Sifo.
Ok, the very script in the actual movie goes:
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
OBI-WAN (V.O. Continued)
... Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
MACE WINDU
No, who ever placed that order did not have
the authorization of the Jedi Council.
YODA
Bring him here. Question him we will.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him.
AS you can well see they are interested in Sifo, not Jango.
> "Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him." Obi-Wan
> glanced over his shoulder again and abruptly instructed R4 to cut the
> transmission.
> "A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the
> hologram had gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"
> "When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said,
> and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then
> Sifo-Dyas must have place it right before he died.
As you see the Sifo being dead is not an actual line from the movie.
If GL wanted us to believe that way he would have made it clear so.
And the line you quote adds speculation, that he MAY be dead, but Yoda is
not sure.
That and the fact that in the book it makes clear who they want Obi-wan to
capture, while in the movie it is the other way around.
> "If this Jango Fett was involved in trying to kill the
> Senator, and just happened to be chosen as the source for a clone
> army, created for the Republic..." Mace Windu stopped and shook his
> head. The coincidence was to great for those two items to be simple
> chance. But how could one tie in with other? Was it possible that
> whoever decided to create the clone army was afraid that Senator
> Amidala would be a strong enough voice to prevent that army from being
> used?
> The Jedi Master rubbed a hand over his forehead and looked to
> Yoda, who sat with this eyes closed. Probably contemplating the same
> riddles as he was, Mace knew. And equally troubled, if not more so.
> "Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could
> not see," Yoda remarked.
> "I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to
> use the Force has diminished."
> "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakeness," Yoda
> replied. "If informed the Senate is, mulitply our adversaries will."
Now I do not know of this being a typo, but Yoda tells of the Dark Lord of
the Sith, he does not use plural, making thus understandable that the Jedi
believe that the Sith Lord does not have an apprentice yet.
> >It seems to me that you put much faith in the book. The movie is
different.
>
> The novel is an extension of the movie. It tells you what the movie
> did not. They are two different mediums (book and movie) and they
> compliiment each other.
Agreed. But this is not a movie based on a book, but a book based on a
movie.
The movie happens to be more important, imho.
> There is not rule that says you have to know both, but do not discount
> one over the other as many people do consider the movie novelizations
> to be canon.
Agreed. However there are differences between movies and novelizations of
the movies.
I am just pointing this out.
Iakovos:)
iakovos
> On Mon, 20 May 2002 02:15:00 +0300, "iakovos"
> <indi...@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >> >> But a Jedi wouldn't have placed the order!
> >> >
> >> >We do not know of if he was still a Jedi or not.
> >>
> >> Well the real Sifo-Dyas didn't leave the Jedi order so yes he was
> >> still a Jedi.
> >
> >Didn't leave the order as long as he was alive. We do not know what he
did
> >after his alleged death.
>
> True. But a Jedi still would not have placed the order. It doesn't
> jive with who the Jedi are. Mace and Yoda feel this same way.
That's why I am telling you we do not know if he was STILL a Jedi or not.
If he was in alliance with the bad guys, it makes more sense.
BUT if he is still a GOOD guy, then more problems do we have.
> The real Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi (I have read the book now and
> that's what it says).
>
> The "Sifo-Dyas" who placed the order could not have been the real one
> because it is so out of character and out of place for a Jedi. The one
> who placed the order was using this name as a psuedo.
Well, it is your speculation. Mace says the one who placed that order could
not have the authorization of the Jedi council, he does not say, HEY, the
one who placed that order is NOT a JEDI, must be someone else.
> Just because you tell someone who you are doesn't mean they've been
> waiting for you. He was expecting them to come up and say something
> along the lines of "How can we help you?" not "We were expecting you."
All I am saying is that Obi's actions do not indicate that he requested
clearance to land.
> >> Don't snip that please- I had to go back to a previous post.
> >>
> >> Yes the original Sifo-Dyas guy is dead. End of story.
> >
> >We do not know, movie wise. The book can say anything.
>
> No we don't but whether you think the book canon or not, you cannot
> rule it out.
I have already answered that.
> What the hell is that supposed to mean?
No spoon!
> (sig doesn't want no stinkin' bombs)
>
> Y'know you've been getting more aggressive in your last couple of
> posts...
Nope :)
Iakovos:)
iakovos
"IWCFVB" <iwc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020519204754...@mb-fy.aol.com...
> >According to the MOVIE, it's Sifo-Dyas they want.
> >Even if it is bad dialogue, they want Sifo, not Jango.
>
> No, according to the MOVIE, it is Jango they want.
You are mistaken.
>Anyone with half a brain would realize that.
Not according to the movie.
>Yoda and Mace think Sifo is dead numb-nuts, why would they
> ask Obi-Wan to bring him in?
They DO NOT say or THINK about that anywhere.
See the dialogue from the film!
>Also, why do you think Obi-Wan tries to capture Fett?
He wants to question him, in order to capture Sifo. Fett is the only lead he
has.
Why do you think he's placing a tracking device in the first place?
>And the dialogue isn't that confusing; I don't know why people are
> complaining.
I am not complaining. YOU are.
>Its quite clear from the dialogue there that they want Fett, NOT
> Sifo, so get a clue and stop picking on people.
Here we go again. SEE the dialogue:
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes Master. (pause) They said Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order
for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago.
I was under the impression that he was killed before that...
Non verbal reaction between MACE WINDU and YODA. They know something more
than OBI-WAN.
OBI-WAN (V.O. Continued)
... Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
MACE WINDU
No, who ever placed that order did not have
the authorization of the Jedi Council.
YODA
Bring him here. Question him we will.
OBI-WAN (V.O.)
Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him.
It's PRETTY clear to me that they want Sifo-Dyas and not Jango. And the main
reason for this is that Jango's name has been mentioned 3 minutes earlier.
Obi does not mention him again.
Yoda wants to question the one WHO placed the order, not the one who is
responsible for the assassination attempts for Senator Amidala.
And I do not pick up on people. STOP being so aggressive and grow up...
Iakovos:)