Raven Main as a Reserve?
GW Galloway
I answered an email from a customer today, but before I post a copy of
my answer to him/her here, I thought I might throw this question to the
ng to see if it might excite some opinions. I will be interested to see
what reaction this question generates... Here's the question:
----
"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
as a reserve? Obviously, the Raven was used as a main. The reason I'm
asking is that I recently bought a new container. I took the Ravens out
of the old container and put them in the new one. I've been thinking
about setting the old container up as a backup rig, and one of the local
jumpers has a Raven II for sale. She took good care of it so I
personally would have no qualms about using it as a main or, based on
your input, as a reserve. So, what do you think?"
----
My response to this customer (and others) who have asked the same
question over the years might or might not surprise you. I will post my
answer in a few days. In the meantime, what sayest thou fellow newsgroup
readers/writers?
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"If you can pack all of those parachutes, then you can fold your own
shirts and make up your own bed"! [What Mom told me when I was still
living at home at age 23, absolutely obsessed with skydiving] c.1972
George Galloway <g...@precision.net> http://precision.aerodynamics.com
Precision Aerodynamics 423-949-4688 Parachute Industry Assn V Pres
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RRRockey1
Same old stuff. The guy who seals it has to determine its airworthiness.
Sounds obvious to me.
Just make sure the slider is the right one.
terry....@am.pnu.com
In article <336973...@precision.net>,
> </PRE>
> </BODY>
Hey George,
What are trying to do? Get us talking about something important? Surely
you have better things to do!:) Last I knew it was illegal because you
didn't allow it. Aside from that I don't want my or my customers last
chance to live dependent on someone else's care (dragging through the
dirt, laying in the sun, velcro snagging the lines, and letting the dog
sleep in it). Besides if it isn't warrented for the intended purpose to
start with, what good is it 300 jumps later? :)
Terry Urban
D-8631
S&TA ME19
FAA Senior Rigger 1985
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Winsor Naugler III
GW Galloway <g...@precision.net> wrote:
>I answered an email from a customer today, but before I post a copy of
>my answer to him/her here, I thought I might throw this question to the
>ng to see if it might excite some opinions. I will be interested to see
>what reaction this question generates... Here's the question:
>----
>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>as a reserve? Obviously, the Raven was used as a main. The reason I'm
>asking is that I recently bought a new container. I took the Ravens out
>of the old container and put them in the new one. I've been thinking
>about setting the old container up as a backup rig, and one of the local
>jumpers has a Raven II for sale. She took good care of it so I
>personally would have no qualms about using it as a main or, based on
>your input, as a reserve. So, what do you think?"
>----
>My response to this customer (and others) who have asked the same
>question over the years might or might not surprise you. I will post my
>answer in a few days. In the meantime, what sayest thou fellow newsgroup
>readers/writers?
Off the top of my head, I recall being advised that it is legal to
intentionally TEST JUMP the reserve once with an approved tertiary
reserve, but that if the canopy had been used as a main - EVER - the
TSO was no longer in effect as an approved auxiliary parachute.
I can find no specific reference to this in the selections from the
regs found in Poynter.
In rigger's school I was told that a good rule of thumb was to refuse
to repack a reserve after it had been used for its intended purpose 5
times, but I think that was a matter of policy, rather than law.
I have seen notation on some canopies indicating that the TSO expired
after a given number of repack cycles. Given the latitude the
manufacturer has as to the limitations imposed in the TSO
certification process, the specifications stated by the manufacturer
are binding. Thus, a Last Chance brand reserve might not be in
accordance with the TSO after two uses, but an Acme brand reserve
might be legal to pack after dozens of uses, so long as it passed
inspection.
At any rate, my call is that you can make a reserve into a main, but
you cannot make a main into a reserve.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Trying2Fly
In article <336973...@precision.net>, GW Galloway <g...@precision.net>
writes:
>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>as a reserve?
You left out "Insane". Chances are it would work just fine. But there are
just to many things that could go wrong. All you have to do is read your
"Raven Saves" stories to answer that question. One of these days it won't
work.
Bill Von Novak
In article <19970502135...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tryin...@aol.com says...
>>
>>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>>as a reserve?
>
>You left out "Insane". Chances are it would work just fine. But there are
>just to many things that could go wrong. All you have to do is read your
>"Raven Saves" stories to answer that question. One of these days it won't
>work.
which would you rather have as a reserve - a canopy that has worked
perfectly for the past 300 jumps, or a canopy that has never, ever been
jumped before? there's a lot that can go wrong with a canopy, and not all
those things can get caught at a visual inspection.
most canopy "failures" are due to packing errors. i think the "raven
saves" stories have more to do with the packing skill of the rigger vs. the
jumper than any kind of material failure of the canopy. when's the last time
a well-maintained F111 7-cell main just "blew up?"
-bill von
Michael Wright
>In article <336973...@precision.net>, GW Galloway <g...@precision.net>
>writes:
>>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>>as a reserve?
I would not jump a rig that has a reserve with 300 jumps. I'm not a rigger but something doesn't sound right about putting a used ma=
in as a reserve in a rig. Didn't Dan Poynter wrote a canopy loses 50% of its strength after 600 jumps due to sunlight exposure?
Anyway, I have about 600 jumps on my rig which has a Raven main and reserve (it is the Super Raven, one of the first to have smooth =
surface). I bought this type because my instructor said it was a good middle of the road type canopy. I wasn't up to spending $1500 =
on a hot rod canopy.
The main has worked great for me, maybe a couple of times it tend to open slower than usual but otherwise I've "tested" a "reserve" =
600 times I have not found any failure modes so far. I was wondering if a Raven as a main malfunctions, could that incident be used =
to determine unknown faults of it as a reserve? I guess you would first have to rule out the jumper didn't trash pack the canopy.
However, I recommend NOT to use the 300 jump main as a reserve.
Michael Wright*, D13106
mfwr...@batnet.com
* A good enough skydiver to be invited on Mad John's skygod loads.
Airsurf696
Would they want to take the chance? How much would the old one really
cost compared to a new one? It would probably work alright, but....would
you want to risk it? The nice thing about a reserve is it hasn't seen
daylight (hopefully) and it opens quickly then sets you down safely. At
least, they have for me.
FWiW,
Daniel Zacharias
Airsu...@aol.com
"Sir Chops-a-Lot"
Raven II, 4 Micro Raven 150, Micro Raven 135, Strong Tandem Reserve
Michael
Winsor Naugler III <dog...@ix.netcom.NOSPAM.com> wrote:
>In rigger's school I was told that a good rule of thumb was to refuse
>to repack a reserve after it had been used for its intended purpose 5
>times, but I think that was a matter of policy, rather than law.
Gawd, I'm glad you don't do my rigging. You know, we crewdogs actually
use our reserves. I for one didn't spend good money for a canopy to
just have it as deadweight.
On a more practical note - ever heard of anyone retiring a BASE canopy after
5 jumps? Surely the stresses of BASE openings are just as greaat as those
of reserve openings. I have a Raven IV with 300 jumps on it I use for
BASE. I wouldn't hesitate to pack it as a reserve were it legal (which,
as I remember, it's not).
Michael (500 jumps, 6 reserve rides) Masterov
Freefalr38
At first blush, the thought of using a canopy with 300 jumps on it
bothers me, but I am unable to put my finger on why. However, if the
jumper has the canopy inspected and appropriately modified/set up for use
as a reserve, I fail to see why the mere fact that a reserve is "used"
would have any impact on safety, per se. Freefalr38.
Moshe Preil
GW Galloway wrote:
>
> "Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
> using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
> as a reserve?
Great troll, George. I like the responses so far. Some people are making
the point that somehow a canopy with 300 jumps on it has a higher chance
of not working than a new canopy; I was especially intrigued by Winsor's
comment about refusing to repack a reserve that had been used 5 times.
While I agree that a main should not be used as a reserve, I think these
responses show too much belief in the idea that a newer canopy is more
failure resistant than an older one. Despite the wonderful "Precision
saves" testimonials, there is still a chance that a perfect, brand new,
never jumped reserve can ALSO malfunction.
I don't think that a well maintained canopy with 300 jumps on it is any
more prone to malfunction than a new canopy (good line trim, no weak
seams). Lots of people have good canopies with far more jumps than that.
I think the issue with reserves is more the opening speed; newer canopy,
less porosity, faster deployment. Speed is more the determining factor
here than reliability.
Moshe
Michel Cole
Nothing says the Raven will fail on jump # 301 (while it is being used as
a reserve). It worked before, chances are it will work again. My concern
would be opening time. Reserves are supposed to open [very] quickly (200ft
max or something like that. Will check when I get home). A Raven with 300
jumps on it should snivel and give u comfortable openings. So, if you initiate
deployment sequence at 500ft (still at terminal :-)) the 300-jump might
snivel you into ground whereas a brand-new one might give you time to
turn into the wind and flare.
--
Michel
David S. Clarkson
Precision Aerodynamics owner's manual for TSO'd canopies (Raven &
Falcon) page 8:
"I understand this canopy is designed to be used as a main canopy only,
unless it has been TSOed for use as a reserve. It may be used as one or
the other (if FAA approved for use as a reserve) but it is not to be
used as a reserve if it has been intentionally jumped as a main canopy.
One familiarization jump is allowable prior to packing for reserve use."
George,
My mother always told me to follow the manufacturer's instructions - so
there you have it.
David S. Clarkson
Peregrine Rigging Service
GW Galloway wrote:
>
> I answered an email from a customer today, but before I post a copy of
> my answer to him/her here, I thought I might throw this question to the
> ng to see if it might excite some opinions. I will be interested to see
> what reaction this question generates... Here's the question:
>
> ----
> "Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
> using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
Drew Eckhardt
In article <19970502135...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Trying2Fly <tryin...@aol.com> wrote:
>>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>>as a reserve?
We had a jumper that got line stretch on his reserve approximately
fifty feet above the tree line. If his reserve had taken longer to
open, as old-F111 does, he'd be dead now.
--
"Come to the edge, Life said. They said: We are afraid. Come to the edge,
Life said. They came. Life pushed them...and they flew." -Guillaume Apollinaire
Work: dr...@Qualcomm.COM Play: dr...@PoohSticks.ORG
Home Page: <a href="http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/">Home Page</a>
Mike Robbins
Michael Wright wrote:
>
>
>
> * A good enough skydiver to be invited on Mad John's skygod loads.
Hee heee ! Now that *is* funny. To get invited on a Mad John load you
need two things :
1. A pulse.
2. A ticket.
You could get away with not having the first if you have the second.
Mike Robbins.
(Couln't resist)
Beezy Shaw
> ... when's the last time
>
> -bill von
>
>
goods that we at Precision would probably put on the reject shelf to use
for banners or something, the answer is likely "every now and then, it just
happens" !!!
by the way george, i needed your reserve for one of our demo rigs, so i
packed you up one that has a few hundred jumps on it. you don't mind, do
you?
kleggo
GW Galloway wrote:
>
> I answered an email from a customer today, but before I post a copy of
> my answer to him/her here, I thought I might throw this question to the
> ng to see if it might excite some opinions. I will be interested to see
> what reaction this question generates... Here's the question:
wow!
there certainly is a lot of...................................
ignoran?
confusio?
stupidi?
nope, ignorance sums it up best, (and is less insulting), in this
newsgroup.
inspect it,if it passes then install a mesh or bikini slider, jump with
it.
if it fails, sell it to a student 8-).
i use my quiver as a main & reserve on most every non-airplane jump i
make.
wait................
am i still alive?
kleggo
Taykalo Family
GW Galloway <g...@precision.net> wrote:
>I answered an email from a customer today, but before I post a copy of
>my answer to him/her here, I thought I might throw this question to the
>ng to see if it might excite some opinions. I will be interested to see
>what reaction this question generates... Here's the question:
>
>----
>"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about
>using a Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition
>as a reserve? Obviously, the Raven was used as a main. The reason I'm
>asking is that I recently bought a new container. I took the Ravens out
>of the old container and put them in the new one. I've been thinking
>about setting the old container up as a backup rig, and one of the local
>jumpers has a Raven II for sale. She took good care of it so I
>personally would have no qualms about using it as a main or, based on
>your input, as a reserve. So, what do you think?"
>----
>
>My response to this customer (and others) who have asked the same
>question over the years might or might not surprise you. I will post my
>answer in a few days. In the meantime, what sayest thou fellow newsgroup
>readers/writers?
A canopy that is TSO'D as a certified canopy can be used as a certified canopy, regardless of the number of jumps as long as it is d=
eemed airworthy by a certified rigger in that type, ie. back, seat, chest, as is the harness TSO'd also.
Tim
GW Galloway
The original question was:
"Is there anything inherently unsafe, illegal or immoral about using a
Raven II that has 300 jumps but is in otherwise good condition as a
reserve? Obviously, the Raven was used as a main. The reason I'm asking
is that I recently bought a new container. I took the Ravens out of the
old container and put them in the new one. I've been thinking about
setting the old container up as a backup rig, and one of the local
jumpers has a Raven II for sale. She took good care of it so I
personally would have no qualms about using it as a main or, based on
your input, as a reserve. So, what do you think?"
IMHO, the best answers were given (in no particular order) by:
1)Tim "A canopy that is TSO'D as a certified canopy can be used as a
certified canopy, regardless of the number of jumps as long as it is
deemed airworthy by a certified rigger...
2)kleggo "inspect it,if it passes ... jump with it..."
3)David S. Clarkson "...follow the manufacturer's instructions (It may
be used as one or the other [if FAA approved for use as a reserve] but
it is not to be used as a reserve if it has been intentionally jumped as
a main canopy. One familiarization jump is allowable prior to packing
for reserve use.)
Right, David, excellent observation. That comment in the Owner's
manual is intended to encourage our customers to exercise good common
sense in choosing which container to pack their Raven into... Notice it
says "not to be used"... does that mean it can be legally packed but not
legally deployed? (big troll here)
4)bill von "when's the last time a well-maintained F111 7-cell main just
"blew up?"
5)rrro...@aol.com "The guy who seals it has to determine its
airworthiness"
My response to the customer was:
When a Raven canopy leaves the factory as new, it is placarded to be
certified under the authority of the TSO process. What this means is,
the design has been tested to a certain standard, and the design of this
particular canopy is consistent with a similar canopy which has been
drop tested successfully.
The parallel scenario in general aviation would be a Cessna aircraft
which leaves the assembly line in Wichita is dispatched with an
airworthiness certificate.
A Raven Reserve is only certified to be airworthy 120 days at a time,
just as the Cessna undergoes an annual inspection before it is "in
license" and declared to be airworthy.
Your question to me would be like calling Cessna Aircraft Company to see
if your used airplane can pass the annual inspection. In the case of a
parachute, it is the Parachute Rigger's discression and responsibility
to declare airworthiness for a given canopy. There in no magic number of
jumps which would subjectively disqualify a canopy for use as a reserve,
on the basis of "number of jumps" only.
This is strictly a question of judgement.... both your judgement (as the
person putting the canopy on your back), and your rigger's judgement as
to the airworthiness of that particular canopy at this pack cycle.
Most people seem willing to jump any old rag as a main canopy but they
want their reserve to be a pristine virgin. An acceptable range of
reality may reside somewhere in between. If you were to ask me if I
would exit the aircraft with a 300 jump Raven packed in a single canopy
pilot's emergency rig, my answer would probably depend on how close the
aircraft fire was getting to the fuel tanks.
Lutz
In article <5kd6l7$4...@station.batnet.com>,
Michael Wright <put...@trash.can> wrote:
>>In article <336973...@precision.net>, GW Galloway
<g...@precision.net>
>>writes:
>
>Michael Wright*, D13106
>mfwr...@batnet.com
>
>* A good enough skydiver to be invited on Mad John's skygod loads.
>
What the hell is a "Mad John's skygod" load? I'm certainly not a skygod
in any way but I'm sure as hell have fun jumping on Mad John's loads.
Lutz, D-19318
Jose Pedro T. Pina Coelho
GW Galloway wrote:
> [...] Notice it
> says "not to be used"... does that mean it can be legally packed but not
> legally deployed? (big troll here)
If it can be legaly packed, it can be legaly deployed (since deploying
is
the only reason for packing).
Idiot thought for the day: discardable canopy. Sold pre-packed,
will bio-degrade one hour after deployment (no more packing).
--
| Jose Pedro T. Pina Coelho | Internet: j...@vnet.ibm.com
| MPN: j...@mail.pt.ibm.com
- Doing AIX Support was the most Monty-Pythonesque activity
available at the time.
MattGamer
As a rigger, I have always known that you can (A MASTER RIGGER) modify a
reserve into a main if the manufacturer allows its use as a main, but
never the other way around. The reserve must be TSOed wereas the main
doesn't require a TSO.
Also, as my last resort I would rather spend the money for a new reserve
than to trust a parachute that has been jumped, packed and pulled around
the ground 300 times, even if it is still in good condition.
As I always say"I may be CRAZY, but I am not STUPID!!!"