Overage soprano in Blue Devils?
ScoutAlumn
I heard a rumor that there was an overage soprano in Blue Devils this
year. He marched in VK in 89 and was 16 then. Hum, My math puts him at
23......I contacted DCI at their home page but I never recieved a
responce. I have his name, but I don't want to post it to whole group.
Many of us know how it's like to age out. I think all of us should
play on the same field. I am open to all opinions and suggestions.
Keep Jammin',
Scoutalumn
Briteangel
This is exactly the kind of thing I've been worried about with the Blue
Devils. I can only compare them to the kind of camp the athletes from
Bejing China experience. All that one thing, and no life. It's kind of
sad. They are people who have no life and can practice constantly. I
also wonder why they would let someone clearly against the rules continue
to play for them. Hope its not true. It would be a real shame to think
that they had to sink to these depths.
Mtn J2
Let's not jump to any conclusions here. I have heard many rumors of
certain top six corps using 'ringers', but, as far as I know, they were
just that; rumors.
Billy
UAB Blazers
Rynful
In article <4taoin$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, mt...@aol.com (Mtn J2)
writes:
>Let's not jump to any conclusions here. I have heard many rumors of
>certain top six corps using 'ringers', but, as far as I know, they were
>just that; rumors.
>
>
Out of curiousity... Would (could) an individual affect an entire corps
performance so that the difference would be noticeable? I guess if they
were a soloist.... what do you guys think?
Kathy
***********************************************************
Kathy Fulton
ryn...@aol.com
Instructor, Kathleen HS Color Guard
***********************************************************
John James
Sucker!
Zak Ruffert
On Jul 27, 1996 06:00:59 in article <Re: Overage soprano in Blue Devils?>,
From what I hear thats true, there was an overage soprano in BD (can anyone
confirm this). I also know a guy who filled a third sop whole for BD a
couple weeks ago (Maybe it was the overage soprano players whole) my guess
is that as soon as BD found out he was overage they said see ya!
J Laning
Briteangel wrote:
>
> This is exactly the kind of thing I've been worried about with the Blue
> Devils. I can only compare them to the kind of camp the athletes from
> Bejing China experience. All that one thing, and no life. It's kind of
> sad. They are people who have no life and can practice constantly. I
> also wonder why they would let someone clearly against the rules continue
> to play for them. Hope its not true. It would be a real shame to think
> that they had to sink to these depths.
I can't believe everyone has tried and convicted the Blue Devils like
this. You can't look down on an organization just because one person
says something about them that MIGHT NOT be true. If it turns out to be
true then you can condem them but PLEASE not beforehand.
Scott Bleau
To clear this up maybe Dave Gibbs could post the specifics.
Until then this is what I was told by Blue Devil members when they were here
in Denver last week. Mind you this is hearsay and only that.
There was an overage gentleman who made the sop line. He rehearsed with them,
but he had not turned in his birth certificate. The day before the corps left
for DCI tour they were still trying to get it so they called his mother. She
gave them his birthdate and his age (23), but before anyone could get ahold of
him he had moved out of his apartment and pretty much disappeared.
Knowing Dave, I seriously doubt he would have let the kid on the bus without
that certificate in hand even if he was young enough.
If this is in fact the way things went I would be willing to help in any
covert snu operations.
--
INJ,
Scott Bleau (sbl...@jeffco.k12.co.us)
--> Because I care, I teach.
Tim Root
8<------------------- email flame deleted -------------------------
My apologies for the tone of my last message. I don't usually resort to
flaming but the negative generalizations that you made about a corps that has
been a big part of my life angered me.
As far as "credentials", I admittedly know nothing of Chinas athletic program,
but I marched three years with the Blue Devils and have been involved with
the corps for ten years now.
This is a free country and you do have a right to post anything you want on
usenet. That does not mean that you SHOULD. RAMD is a forum for discussion of
drum corps. You made broad negative generalizations about the Blue Devils.
Generalizations which are not even close to being true. (If you want to have
an intelligent discussion about BD methodologies I would be happy to oblige.)
These false statements which reinforce a negative stereotype which already
exists hurt the corps and the hurt the drum corps activity in general.
Again, you have the right to say what you wish in an open forum but if you
want to be taken seriously you need to be prepared to back up what you say.
If your post was "flamebait" congratulations, you got me. If not, I would
be curious to know why you have such negative feelings about the Blue Devils
and would enjoy the opportunity to try to change your mind.
Tim Root
BD Soprano 1986, 1987, 1988
Web page 1996 http://www.blue-devils.com
Tim Root
>>year. He marched in VK in 89 and was 16 then. Hum, My math pu him at
>>23......I contacted DCI at their home page but I never recieved a
Why didn't you contact the Blue Devils? Do you honestly think that any
top corps would knowingly march an overaged member?
-Tim
BD 86,87,88
RadKeys
Subject: Re: Overage soprano in Blue Devils?
From: brite...@aol.com (Briteangel)
Date: 26 Jul 1996 09:03:44 -0400
Message-ID: <4tafng$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
"This is exactly the kind of thing I've been worried about with the Blue
Devils. I can only compare them to the kind of camp the athletes from
Bejing China experience. All that one thing, and no life. It's kind of
sad. They are people who have no life and can practice constantly...."
Did you march Devs?? You must have to make all these accusations and to
voice your conception about the corps. How can you compare us to this
Bejing China camp (or anything) when you haven't experienced us? or have
you.. hhmmm, funny, I don't remember you.
A proud BD Alum,
Terri L. Haley
BD 89-90
VK 87-88
MC 84-85-86
LEG at cba
In article <4tat3p$r...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ryn...@aol.com (Rynful)
writes:
>
>Out of curiousity... Would (could) an individual affect an entire corps
>performance so that the difference would be noticeable? I guess if they
>were a soloist.... what do you guys think?
>
>Kathy
I don't think that is the point. This person could be playing low soprano
for all we know. The point is simply that rules are made to minimize
unfair advantage. Breaking the rules is taking unfair advantage of all
other corps, regardless of their stature.
On a personal note, if what this thread started out with is true, I hope
that DCI waits until Finals night to disqualify the corps, just like they
did to Muchachos in 1975.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Enfield CT Sabers (65-73)
NY Skyliners Alumni Corps
Briteangel
Get a grip guys. I was not the one who first made any hint or suggestion
about this, because I had no clue nor was I attempting to find out.
Rather, the initial post here is from someone else who in fact got in
touch with the DCI people and had the individual's name. My concern is
simply that I would hate to see ANY corp brutilized by some clerical
error. While I may not like BD's show, not approve of their methods, I
believe everyone deserves a level playing field. This was the basis for
my belief that IF there was an overage member, then BD was not aware of it
as they wouldn't do anything that obvious to jeopardize their chances.
Hope that clarifies it. If not, check your original post on this thread
and you'll see I'm right. Don't flame at me just because my opinion
doesn't match your's.
Tim Root
In article <31FCE6...@ix.netcom.com>,
Barry N. York <bny...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>If this is true, then BD should be eliminated from competition
>ASAP. The Bridgemen removed the overage individuals in 1977 early
>in the season, and were still DQ'd.
>
>Barry
I don't know any of the details of previous corps that were busted for overaged
members. I question what good would come from disqualifying the Blue Devils.
They found out about the overaged person. They kicked him out. What more
would you ave them do? Maybe they should have come down harder/sooner on the
guy but now the point is moot.
If BD was not competing:
1) 127 people who have dedicated a large portion of there year would
harshly punished for the follishness of one. (Plus staff and
support)
2) I would not have attended Precision West or Stockton and I would
not have driven from Santa Cruz to Denver in one weekend to see
DATR. I know that I am not alone in this category. All of the
top corps are draws. Remove any one and you will impact attendance.
Especially in west coast shows!
If you really feel they need to be punished I could see taking show titles
away from them where the person in question marched. But regardless of what
has happened in the past disqualifying the Blue Devils now would be petty and
stupid. No one person can make the difference in a drum corps. BD was not
winning because of that person and they don't seem to be suffering from his
absence.
Tim Root
BD 86,87,88 (Web page 96 http://www.blue-devils.com)
Barry N. York
Well, since this corps is not from New Jersey or
Pennsylvania, it is my guess that they would wimp out
like they did when SCV cheating in 1989 with 2
overage members.
Barry
Barry N. York
Yes, I can think of 4 top-12 corps that have been caught
in the act. Of the four, all of them were DQ'd for
cheating, but DCI was too soft to mail SCV for it
in 1989.
> -Tim
> BD 86,87,88
Shirlee Whitcomb
Barry: You wrote:
>Well, since this corps is not from New Jersey or
>Pennsylvania, it is my guess that they would wimp out
>like they did when SCV cheating in 1989 with 2
>overage members.
>
>Barry
I just can't ignore this comment. You surely can't think that either
SCV or BD would be STUPID enough to take someone into their corps
knowing they were overage. To suggest that they were cheating is
absolutely inconceivable. They both turn players away every year --
they absolutely don't NEED anyone so badly they would take an over age
person. It's been 20 years since DCI had the other over-age incidents
in NJ and Penn and in those days kids weren't required to turn in birth
certificates the way they are today. At worst, a kid could lie about
his/her age, but to suggest that ANY corps today would knowingly do
something like that is beyond belief.
Shirlee
Doug Luberts
Actually, Butthead, all of the over-age business in Bayonne ended
after the '77 season so close your sphincter and keep quiet.
Those of us who marched that year were deeply hurt by the
disqualification, which was the result of gross irresponsibility on
the part of the ADULTS running the organization (who should have been
horsewhipped, IMO.) The kids wound up paying the price.
Since you're favorite cocktail probably came with a nipple on it at
that time, you would no little, if anything, of what happened at the
time and how horrible it was for those of us involved.
Thanks, in advance, for keeping your mouth shut.
Doug Luberts
Bridgemen Drumline
1975-1978
robbs...@aol.com (RobbSi1994) wrote:
>I confess....I was overage when with the 1986 Blue Devils!
>-Too bad I was on staff and not on the field.
>(I thought most of Bayonnes' 80-81 snares were at least as old as my uncle
>Lenny)
>-Robb Sirat
>BD alumn
Zak Ruffert
On Jul 29, 1996 12:29:42 in article <Re: Overage soprano in Blue Devils?>,
'"Barry N. York" <bny...@ix.netcom.com>' wrote:
>
>If this is true, then BD should be eliminated from competition
>ASAP. The Bridgemen removed the overage individuals in 1977 early
>in the season, and were still DQ'd.
>
>Barry
because some chump lied about his age. If BD knowingly had an overaged
member that would be a little different. But as soon as the devils found
out they kicked him out of the corp. A top level corp such as the Blue
Devils wouldnt risk having an overaged member. think about it. I would sure
hate to see the Blue Devils DQ'd.
Zak
Barry N. York
Zak Ruffert wrote:
>
> On Jul 27, 1996 06:00:59 in article <Re: Overage soprano in Blue Devils?>,
> 'J...@aol.com (John James)' wrote:
>
>
> >On 26 Jul 1996 05:01:56 -0400, scout...@aol.com (ScoutAlumn) wrote:
> >
> >> I heard a rumor that there was an overage soprano in Blue Devils
> this
> >>23......I contacted DCI at their home page but I never recieved a
> >> Many of us know how it's like to age out. I think all of us should
>
> >>play on the same field. I am open to all opinions and suggestions.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Sucker!
>
> From what I hear thats true, there was an overage soprano in BD (can anyone
> confirm this). I also know a guy who filled a third sop whole for BD a
> couple weeks ago (Maybe it was the overage soprano players whole) my guess
> is that as soon as BD found out he was overage they said see ya!
If this is true, then BD should be eliminated from competition
Barry N. York
Well, SCV had 2, TWO, overage members in 1989, and they got
away with just removing the members the week of finals.
Barry
RobbSi1994
Shirlee Whitcomb
>Well, SCV had 2, TWO, overage members in 1989, and they got
>away with just removing the members the week of finals.
>
>Barry
As I recall that incident it involved someone from out of the country
with fraudulent papers.
Briteangel
Surprisingly I am going to agree. Disqualifying the Blue Devils for the
mistake of one individual would hurt many dedicated musicians who try
their best. I may not like this year's BD show, but I understand the hard
work that went into getting it ready. Perhaps if something needs to be
done, the show that individual was it could be removed from their scores
and that title taken away, but not everything. That would perhaps satisfy
those out for blood without seriously hurting the innocents of the group.
I'm sure once it was discovered the BD staff pulled this individual. I'd
really hate to see them totally eliminated from this competition.
Tim Root
In article <4th430$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Briteangel <brite...@aol.com> wrote:
> While I may not like BD's show, not approve of their methods, I
> believe everyone deserves a level playing field.
Sorry. I mentioned this in our email but I thought I'd bring it up here too.
You have regularly disparaged the Blue Devils "methods." Implying some sort
of shady behavior. Maybe I am being too sensitive but if you have something
to say about the way BD is run then say it. Don't speak in generalities.
Our discussions here and your emails so far have led me to believe that you
have never marched in a drum and bugle corps and that you basically have no
idea what you are talking about.
Let's turn this into a real thread!
Let's turn this into a real thread!
Let's turn this into a real thread!
To everyone. What corps did you march and how did you practice. At home and
on tour. Do you feel that the methods were good? Were they uneccesarily
harsh? Did they get the desired effect?
Tim Root
BD 86, 87,88
web page 96 http://www.blue-devils.com
Alan Apache Murphy
RAMD'ers:
It has yet to be confirmed that there was indeed an overage member in
the corps. The closest that this rumor has come to the light of day
is hearsay from Dave Gibbs. Therefore, let's invoke the famous
"innocent until proven guilty" clause for the sake of class and
optimism.
The general consensus of the posts and follow-ups seem to favor giving
BD the benefit of the doubt. We all remember SCV and the two snares
with forged birth certificates too well--especially the close neighbor
corps like BD.
I for one really, really hope that the rumors are untrue--and believe
such. These rumors come and go--we all know this.
On a side note, wouldn't you like to beat BD fair and square instead
of being "the corps that won the ring because BD was disqualified?"
Alan "Apache" Murphy
apa...@mindspring.com
"Caught in that sensual music all neglect
"Monuments of unaging intellect."--W.B. Yeats
Richard M. Stuemke
Briteangel (brite...@aol.com) wrote:
: Surprisingly I am going to agree. Disqualifying the Blue Devils for the
Disqualifying the Hawthorne Muchachos WAS A MISTAKE TOO!!!! They were
very much a contender for the top spot, probably would have ended up in
2nd place. Is it possible DCI ruined this corps for a mistake. That is of
course, considering the individual marched without the knowledge of the
management, if they knew then they deserved what they got.
Rumor has it that A discontented competitor blew the whistle????
Any bets on who fingered Hawthorne???? I vote for Gail Royer. Anybody else?
gc...@eden-backend.rutgers.edu
roya...@prairienet.org (Richard M. Stuemke) wrote:
>Disqualifying the Hawthorne Muchachos WAS A MISTAKE TOO!!!! They were
>very much a contender for the top spot, probably would have ended up in
>2nd place. Is it possible DCI ruined this corps for a mistake. That is of
>course, considering the individual marched without the knowledge of the
> management, if they knew then they deserved what they got.
>Rumor has it that A discontented competitor blew the whistle????
>Any bets on who fingered Hawthorne???? I vote for Gail Royer. Anybody else?
>
Hawthorne in 2nd? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hawthorne WIN
prelims in 75 before being DQd?
As for a competitor blowing the whistle, the story I heard from one
who was a part of it all(on the Muchacho side) was that the corps in
13th place (Troopers I think, but don't quote me on that!) wanted in to
finals, so they got someone in the Cavies to call out the overaged
Muchacho. Cavies and Hawthorne HATED each other...an understatement
if ever there was one, so it didn't really bother the Cavaliers to
do such a thing...they probably enjoyed it if it's true. It was also
probably easy to find an overaged member as many corps back then had a
few...NOOOOOO.....seriously, I know it's hard to believe...
Now IF all of this is true, it's a helluva story. Imagine walking off
the field after winning DCI prelims, and then being told that you can't
compete in Finals. THAT SUCKS!
Gary Cuzzocrea
87 Bridgemen
90-92 Crossmen
96 Jersey Surf Staff
Gary Zinter
Amen. This whole thing is cracking me up! It's obvious that no corps
would risk their entire season for one person, and a clerical error or
fraud should certainly not remove a corps from competition, just the
individual. I can't believe how seriously people take this stuff! I
mean, the point would be to keep a corps from marching numerous over-age
individuals, right? By eliminating each individual, you make numerous
incidences next to impossible. The intent and motivation for the rule is
more important than anything else. Yikes! :)
Gary Zinter
gary....@bsis.com
zin...@ix.netcom.com
Wathome
Dear Sirs and Madams,
If memory serves me correctly, the Blue Devils could not be disqualified
from marching DCI for an over-age member unless that member had competed
in a DCI sanctioned event.
According to the rumors, the alleged over-age member was not with the
corps when they left on tour. I assume tour refers to the DCI portion of
the tour.
IFF this is true, then this is all a mute argument. The matter would be
the juristiction of DCW (assuming the member marched first season).
Repectfully Submitted,
Wes Fitz
Barry N. York
Richard M. Stuemke wrote:
>
> Briteangel (brite...@aol.com) wrote:
> : Surprisingly I am going to agree. Disqualifying the Blue Devils for the
> : mistake of one individual would hurt many dedicated musicians who try
> : their best. I may not like this year's BD show, but I understand the hard
> : work that went into getting it ready. Perhaps if something needs to be
> : done, the show that individual was it could be removed from their scores
> : and that title taken away, but not everything. That would perhaps satisfy
> : those out for blood without seriously hurting the innocents of the group.
> : I'm sure once it was discovered the BD staff pulled this individual. I'd
> : really hate to see them totally eliminated from this competition.
>
> very much a contender for the top spot, probably would have ended up in
> 2nd place. Is it possible DCI ruined this corps for a mistake. That is of
> course, considering the individual marched without the knowledge of the
> management, if they knew then they deserved what they got.
> Rumor has it that A discontented competitor blew the whistle????
> Any bets on who fingered Hawthorne???? I vote for Gail Royer.
>Anybody else?
I agree. I vote for Gail also. In 1989, I understand
that Gail Royer showed his true colors at DCI East. We (Bluecoats)
had a community obligation to fulfill (Pro Football Hall
of Fame Parade) the morning of DCI East. We then had to truck it
across Pennsylvania to get to Allentown. DCI had made a
provision to the Bluecoats that since they had missed prelims,
they had to go on first in finals (there was an assumption that
we would have made finals over some of the much smaller corps).
I think they also took one extra corps just in case we did
not "make finals" by making the top-10. Anyhow, we had
bus problems with our rather new busses (one in particular)
while trying to travel across the mountains in the heat.
We got to the show late, and the other corps' directors
were to decide what to do since we could not meet DCI's
provision. Gail Royer, as I understand it, pushed hard to
keep us off the field. We wanted to take a penalty;
others wanted us to go on in exhibition. The Bluecoats
said, "okay, then judge us, just don't announce the score".
We lucked out and got to go on last in judged exhibition (
no score or placement announced), but no thanks to Gail Royer.
I agree that the Muchachos decision was a mistake too. We never
saw them again at DCI. Funny how depending on who's corps it
is...
Barry
Chris Maher
In article <4tlccq$a...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, roya...@prairienet.org says...
>
>
>
>Disqualifying the Hawthorne Muchachos WAS A MISTAKE TOO!!!! They were
>very much a contender for the top spot, probably would have ended up in
>2nd place. Is it possible DCI ruined this corps for a mistake. That is of
>course, considering the individual marched without the knowledge of the
> management, if they knew then they deserved what they got.
>Rumor has it that A discontented competitor blew the whistle????
>Any bets on who fingered Hawthorne???? I vote for Gail Royer. Anybody else?
>
Agreed, the DQ was a big mistake. I think they could have won. Even if
management knew, destroying the corps was wrong. Not only did it hurt the kids
in the corps, it hurt the fans as well. I would guess that financial penalties
imposed personally on the board of directors would keep things in line.
As for who blew the whistle: at the time I heard it was the Cavaliers. It took
me 15 years to get over it, just in time to be able to enjoy the Cavies first
championship victory. If it wasn't the Cavaliers, I guess I wasted a lot of
negative energy aimed in the wrong direction!
Also, I heard the overage member was a cymbal player. If that's true, its hard
to believe he made any difference.
Chris Maher
(who STILL misses the Muchachos)
bradrick
In case anyone out there is interested in the truth:
There were members who marched with the Santa Clara Vanguard in 1989 who
were found to be over age. This was discovered during the last two weeks
of the season. They were from England. They had falsified passports
good enough to fool U.S. Customs. There was one snare drummer and one
french horn player. The identification that they used to enter this
country made them federal criminals. They took an awful big risk
personally not to mention the fact that they could have destroyed an
entire season of work for 126 others.
When Gail Royer was informed (I'm unable to remember who called and
informed him) of the first one, the drummer, he allowed him to leave in
a taxi. I can't remember if Gail spoke to the corps about what had
happened. It seemed as though there was alot of talking about it on the
practice field that day. We were all devastated and angry. But with
the second member, the french horn player (you'll notice the hole in the
french horn section if you watch the show) Gail found out a few days
later than the first one. I guess it took him a few days to research it
and prove it once the first guy had been discovered. We were already at
our housing site in Kansas City for finals. Gail told the guy to "start
walking before the corps finds out." He informed the corps that if
either of them were caught trying to leave this country that the anger
of the Santa Clara Vanguard would be the least of their worries. I
believe he said he had photocopies of their falsified passports he then
turned over to the authorities.
As an eye-witness to the matter, I can say with complete sincerity that
there is NO WAY that any of us knew we had over aged members. If we had
known, they'd have never made it past the audition camps. (I can
remember the french horn player wasn't actually very good and thinking
that they had probably given him a break since he was from the U.K. and
this seemed to be his dream to march SCV - before he aged out.) Both of
these members had serious girlfriends in the corps who didn't know.
They were both really freaked by the whole thing. One was totally
blithering and crying for the rest of the week. As far as Gail goes -
if you'd seen his face shake and the hurt in his eyes the day he told us
he'd sent the last one packing - you'd never need to question the whole
thing. Vanguard didn't know. Believe it.
Kind Regards,
Brad Faidley
SCV Contra 89 & 90
e-mail address: brad...@dallas.net
Rich Kemp
cpm...@ix.netcom.com (Chris Maher) wrote:
>In article <4tlccq$a...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, roya...@prairienet.org says...
>me 15 years to get over it, just in time to be able to enjoy the Cavies first
>championship victory. If it wasn't the Cavaliers, I guess I wasted a lot of
>negative energy aimed in the wrong direction!
>
>Also, I heard the overage member was a cymbal player. If that's true, its hard
>to believe he made any difference.
I was there and it was us (Cavaliers). We had a percussionist
who marched in Blessed Sac with that guy and he graduated out
of SAC and two years later showed up in Hawthorne. We would
not have known had it not been for him. He was going by
someone elses name and our SAC guy's girlfriend called him
by his real name while they were in line to compete in prelims.
We had a rep from DCI there and they asked to see his drivers
license and thats what did it.
The guy was a soprano player.
As I recall, their director pleaded ignorance at the meeting
held at the hotel across from the stadium.
After 21 years, it is a bit "fuzzy".
Robert Brown
> If this is true, then BD should be eliminated from competition
> ASAP.
That's right, let's assume the staff would jeopardize the season for an
overaged sop!!!! Lets assume that all the rehearsal time the kids put in,
money invested in moving to CA, pride in being a Blue Devil are nothing
when you know you can do a person a favor by letting them march in spite
of their age.
The Bridgemen removed the overage individuals in 1977 early
> in the season, and were still DQ'd.
Hmmmm, once a mistake is made, it should always be made. How many people
wish they could see the 77 Bridgeman, or hear them on the record???? Was
it really worth DQing Bridgeman when the individual(s) were kicked out (PR
can probably answer that).
It appears that you are more interested in ruining 127 individuals summer,
staffs summer, support staffs summer, BD alumni and fans summer, BD
organizations summer and anybody else who would like to see BD this years
summer.
Perhaps the activity would be better off if BD didn't perform. Would the
activity benefit from your well thought out suggestion?
Rob
BD 81, 82, 83, 84, 85
Doug Luberts
Actually there were both videos and an audeo recording of the '77
corps. We were on the live finals broadcast on PBS that year, and
I've seen the tape making the rounds.
A recording was sold by the UOEC (the fore-runner of DCE) from their
championships that year, which happened a couple of weeks after DCI.
As for the rest...
There's one big difference between the SCV incident and the
Bridgemen--intent.
Bobby Hoffman was aware of the DCI rules clarification, sent out in
October of 1976, regarding over-age members. It stated that
individuals whose 21st birthday fell before the Championships were not
eligible to march the season. Hoffman, under the pretense that we
were not, as of October 1976, a member corps, decided to play dumb
about the ruling. The corps marched two individuals whose 21st
birthdays fell during the summer, with the intent of pulling them from
the ranks on their birthdays--a clear violation of the rule.
As it happened, someone (a list of possible suspects has been been
debated over the years, but few know who for sure), had tipped off the
DCI board about this infraction. The corps was lined up after DCI
Midwest prelims and Don Pesceone ran an ID check of the members. The
two members in question were still in line that day.
The board voted to disqualify the corps. This was their right within
the scope of the rules. The fact that they waited for a number of
weeks, until a day before prelims, to culimate the act was
reprehensible. DCI allowed the Bridgemen to finish the tour in good
standing, participating in all of the shows they were headlined in and
making a fair piece of change for DCI, and then we got the boot the
night before finals. The DCI board was, IMO, a petty bunch of
self-righteous vipers and there has been little evidence that much has
changed in recent years.
Now that I'm done editorializing, the fact of the matter remains that
because Bobby Hoffman acted irresponsibly, and because the corps
director acted irresponsibly by not exercising his managerial
perogatives with Hoffman, the corps was rightfully disqualified and
the MEMBERS paid the price. (The truth of the matter was there were a
few seriously overage members (late 20's - 30's) marching in the
Bridgemen in both '76 and '77 and I don't want to here crap from my
alumni brothers about being unjustly screwed by the system--bad
management was to blame and that's not DCI's fault.)
In SCV's case, the member had misrepresented himself by presenting an
altered passport. When Royer found out about the matter, the member
was given the gate. DCI wisely decided not to make the members pay
the price in this case and Vanguard was allowed to compete.
I discussed the whole Bridgemen thing with Don Pesceone a few years
before he retired, my suggestion was to direct the penalities at the
corps Director, rather than the kids, in this type of situation. If
Bobby Hoffman or Ed Holmes had faced a $25,000 fine or being barred
from DCI competition for life, I doubt if the Bridgemen situation
would have ever happened.
Doug Luberts
Barry N. York
Does not matter. They broke the rules.
Sorry,
Barry
Robert Brown
The 1985 Blue Devils almost marched an overaged Contra player. The corps
found out this individuals age during the later half of the off season and
promptly booted him out before any real damage could be done (other than a
waste of time teaching the show to somebody who didn't march).
RB
BD 81-85
Martha Leeson
Hiya Tim,
Being that I'm dating a former Blue Devil, and being that we've gone round and
round many times about the major differences in methods of motivational and
rehearsal techniques between SCV and BD, I would have to say that BD really
IS different.......but only different than what I was used to, that's all!
However, what I really never agreed with was the general attitude about
themselves and how they viewed/treated other corps, which I am told was
basically an "uncondoned but extremely cocky beligerance" (DON'T FLAME -
THIS IS FROM THE MOUTH OF A BLUE DEVIL VET) . Tim, any opinions about
this?
I never really had any close friends in BD who were like this (Tim, you
certainly NEVER have been), but I definitely knew just a small select few who
WERE like this and perhaps these few bad examples are where BD's "bad
boy" reputation stems from. But if that is true, why didn't the rest of the corps
try to stop or "tame" these few who were causing the majority of these kinds of
problems (assuming the corps cared that it had a bad reputation, which maybe
it did not)?
From what I have been told, the prevailing attitude in BD was "as long as you
are good and/or a vet, you can do and say and get away with anything
because no one will attempt to stop you". In SCV, it was the opposite - "it
you're an asshole or an attitude problem, we don't care how good you are - we
don't want you here so get out".
Maybe that is what that guy was talking about? I don't know. And don't come up
to me next time you see me and say "hey, are you bad mouthing BD" cuz you
KNOW I'm not :o) (so there)
Martha
Martha Leeson
Gee Barry, those two kids from the UK forged passports and birth certificates,
and fooled both the British AND US governments. I guess Gail Royer is above
them, so he obviously must have let them into the corps on purpose just to
win DCI. Get a clue Barry!!
Martha Leeson
Alan Apache Murphy
"Barry N. York" <bny...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Does not matter. They broke the rules.
>Sorry,
>Barry
Yes, but are "they?" I think that THAT is the question here.
Are "they" the corps--including ALL of its members, or are "they" the
people who broke the rules.
Also, ignorange of the law does not excuse you from the law--I just
thought that I'd throw that out. Also note that "law" is not spelled
j-u-s-t-i-c-e.
Martha Leeson
Were the Hawthorne Muchachos from Hawthorne, NJ?
If so, I think I saw them every year in parades growing up in Fair Lawn, NJ
(next to Hawthorne).
Anyway, with regards to fingering Gail Royer for narking on Hawthorne, that's a
toughie cuz we'll NEVER know whether that's true or not now. However, I never
saw Gail as the type of person to do something to disqualifiy another corps
ONLY because he was afraid of being beaten by that corps. Winning and
losing didn't mean THAT much to him, believe me!
Martha Leeson
Doug Luberts
Actually, it was the Cavaliers that narked on Hawthorne. The supplied
photos of the members in question to DCI, etc.
Hawthorne's members tried to retaliate a year, or so, later by pulling
the pin on the Cavies' tractor-trailor. The driver felt something
wasn't right and checked the rig, avoiding a costly possible accident.
Doug
Ron Phillips
>would be the juristiction of DCW (assuming the member marched
>first season).
That's "moot". Although I wish this entire thread had been mute(d).
/|
Ron (been overage for YEARS) Phillips / | /
Corps Vets Drum Line, #3 Bass >====TT=== | - (hoot)
Portland, Oregon (__||__) \ | \
Pendleton Rangers, 1964-68 \|
CABA INC
For anybody that cares, there was more than one overage.
LEG at cba
In article <31FFCF...@etak.com>, Martha Leeson <lee...@etak.com>
writes:
>Were the Hawthorne Muchachos from Hawthorne, NJ?
>
>If so, I think I saw them every year in parades growing up in Fair Lawn,
NJ
>(next to Hawthorne).
>
>
Yes. They were the junior corps originally organized to feed the Cabs.
Believe me, they were not just good, they were outstanding.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Enfield CT Sabers (65-73)
NY Skyliners Alumni Corps
Andrew Lee
Scott Wolfe (Jig...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: "Barry N. York" <bny...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: >Does not matter. They broke the rules.
: They did so unknowingly, and remedied the situation as soon as it was
: made apparent to them.
: This is a youth activity, not a police state!
I agree with Scott and the others. First of all, these are just rumors!
If it is true, it appears that Dave Gibbs, et al, have taken quick and
appropriate action to remedy the situation. DQ'ing BD would benefit no
one. Let the kids play.
Barry, why are you so hung up on this issue? Let it rest.
--
Andrew Lee
al...@cup.hp.com
Scott Wolfe
"Barry N. York" <bny...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Does not matter. They broke the rules.
They did so unknowingly, and remedied the situation as soon as it was
made apparent to them.
This is a youth activity, not a police state!
Scott
LEG at cba
In article <4tlr73$e...@imail.in.coris.com>, Rich Kemp <rk...@coris.com>
writes:
>I was there and it was us (Cavaliers). We had a percussionist
>who marched in Blessed Sac with that guy and he graduated out
>of SAC and two years later showed up in Hawthorne. We would
>not have known had it not been for him. He was going by
>someone elses name and our SAC guy's girlfriend called him
>by his real name while they were in line to compete in prelims.
>We had a rep from DCI there and they asked to see his drivers
>license and thats what did it.
>
>The guy was a soprano player.
>
>
It was my understanding (strictly hearsay) that this was the result of a
mis-interpretation of the age rule. If this guy was out of Sac for 2
years then the hearsay is wrong, I guess. However, it is very interesting
that DCI felt compelled to issue a rules clarification in early 1976.
Larry Girard, Jr.
Enfield CT Sabers (65-73)
NY Skyliners Alumni Corps
P.S. - I guess I really stirred up a hornets nest on this one!
Tim Root
Martha,
First of all I hope that you know that I only kid you about being a BD basher.
I know better. :)
I still disagree that the differences between the kids in different corps is
anything more than superficial.
Yes the Blue Devils have a "bad boy" image and yes the members of the corps
take a certain pride in that image. Just like the members of SCV take pride
that corps image. I see more similarity in that then difference.
When I marched BD we were taught that if we did the best job we could then
we could be proud no matter how we placed. Now I don't kid myself that
everyone believed that but I know a lot did. (87 is the corps that I'm most
proud to have been a part of, not 86, or 88)
I guess that what I'm trying to say is that my primary motivation when I
marched was to do the best that I was capable of. In doing that hopefully
I would help make my corps the best thing on the field. I think that these
goals are common throughout drumcorps and outweigh the superficial differences
between corps.
I would hate to see BD turn into SCV and I would hate to see SCV turn into BD.
I love the different "personalities" that the corps project. I just hate it
when ignorant people take these corps "personalities" and make sweeping
generalizations about the people in the corps. (Briteangels uninformed
comments on BD methodology are what dragged me into this thread. Comparing
BD to some sort of evil Chinese athleteic training program.)
I never marched anywhere but BD so I can't speak from experience but I just
don't believe that the differences are that great. I have learned the
difference between corps loyalties and corps prejudices.
Tim
BD soprano 86,87,88
BD web guy 96 http://www.blue-devils.com
/
/ /|
|/ |
---|)---------------------------------------|---|---|)--
---|---- Timothy H. Root -------------------|--()---|---
--/|---- ti...@netmanage.com ---------------()-------|---
-|-(-)-- http:/alumni.cse.ucsc.edu/~timr ----------()---
--\|/---------------------------------------------------
/
John Sactig
Andrew Lee wrote:
>
> Scott Wolfe (Jig...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> If it is true, it appears that Dave Gibbs, et al, have taken quick and
> appropriate action to remedy the situation. DQ'ing BD would benefit no
> one. Let the kids play.
>
> Barry, why are you so hung up on this issue? Let it rest.
>
> --
> Andrew Lee
> al...@cup.hp.com
I'm gay
Brandon Wilson
Speaking of overage participants (or allegations thereof), I have
always wondered something...
In 1989, SCV seemed to have a few holes in the drill at Finals. As I
had seen the show many times on the West coast, the spots (about three
horns) were very noticeable. I figured that this must have been due
to illness or injury, but several of my friends said that SCV had
three horns DQ'd because they were overage.
The story was that the members in question were from overseas, and
their birth certificates were forged (unknown to Gail Royer, who was
on the DCI rules committee at the time). When SCV found out about the
infraction, they removed the violating musicians, and still managed to
win Finals.
I have always wondered if that was true...anyone out there march SCV
in 1989 care to elaborate?
Martha Leeson
Hi Tim,
Yes, you know I'm NOT a BD basher, except when a certain unnamed person
whose initials are RG calls me a "Santa Clara Bandguard puke". Then,
because I'm backed into a corner, I am forced to come up with some REALLY
snappy n' witty retort like "F***in' Blue Devils suck". Of course, I
never really mean it, but life just wouldn't be interesting if I couldn't
say stuff like that in the privacy of my own home once in a while! ;o)
I say that without SCV, BD would be nothing, and vice versa. The two
corps almost need each other to thrive. It's probably the same between
Cavs, Phantom, and Madison being in extremely close proximity to one
another.
As far as BD having Chinese torture rehearsal methods, I say HA!! If
anyone was to have the stricter rehearsal methods, I'd say it was SCV.
You guys had a businesslike but casual/fun rehearsal method. We were the
ones doing the self-inflicted push ups and the military boot camp
thing......but we STILL had a lot of fun too!
Martha
Mat Chavez
For what it's worth, what I've been told was that it was two sops,
both from england, and they were both 23.
Fortunately, for the integrity of SCV and DCI, they were expelled,
and it did not have an impact on how they were judged.
DrumCat
Jeff Lee
I know that I'm "re"ing an "re" but if you are refering to '89 SC, it was a horn
player (mid horn i think) and a snare drummer. Both from England.
Andrew Lee
Brandon Wilson (bjwi...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: I have always wondered if that was true...anyone out there march SCV
: in 1989 care to elaborate?
Brandon, you must have gotten into this thread late because the story
has already been told (about 15 times!). Here is a post from Brad
Faidley:
--
Andrew Lee
al...@cup.hp.com
---------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.marching.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Overage soprano in Blue Devils?
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:33:41 -0600