Value
Randy Story
that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
Ichimusai
> Why do humans believe they have value?
Value is a human concept.
> If materialists are correct, that we are just matter in motion then
> why do we all believe human life should be respected or that one's
> opinion should be respected.
Because most of us want to be respected and have our opinions
respected. By being able to see that other humans are like in this
respect leads to the value you speak off.
The value is because you yourself value these things.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said,
Something I disagree with. Knowledge is objectively verifiable claims.
> how do you justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know
> this is true.
I think you should read some philosophy and about what Humanism is all
about.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler
> or others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process.
Artificial selection though it can produce some of the effects natural
selection produces is not the only thing involved in evolutionary
biology.
> If we have no value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Because we do have value. To our selves. We do not wish other people
to do what they please with us.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and
> God places value on him.
That is an imaginary value because god does not exist outside his
mind.
> How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
See above.
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai AOL: Ichimusai1972 MSN: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URL: http://www.ichimusai.org/
The real danger is not the evil of evil people, but the silence of the
good people.
Randy Story
> Because we do have value. To our selves. We do not wish other people
> to do what they please with us.
> If your value is only because you subjectively believe it, why should
another value your subjective belief.
Ichimusai
By extension of his own value. This is not terribly hard to
understand. May I recommend you a couple of good books on basic
humanistic philosophy instead?
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai AOL: Ichimusai1972 MSN: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URL: http://www.ichimusai.org/
Underskatta aldrig nyttan av printf() när du skall debugga. Försök att
inte råka i estetiska konvulsioner när du använder dem.
-- Anders "Ichimusai" Pettersson, Juni 2002
Randy Story
"Ichimusai" <ic...@ichimusai.org> wrote in message
news:m38ytxn...@h130n1fls31o965.telia.com...
Response: So you borrow from Realism the view that value is absolute &
undeniable to set up part of a Humanist view that value is relative &
subjective. Good strategy!!
The fact is, if all value is relative and subjective then you have no value
to another, you are worth 5 CENTS if that.
Ange...@earthlink.net
<rsto...@olypen.com> thrilled us all with:
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
>that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
>should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
Humans decide value. We decide what is valuable to ourselves and to
our society. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that we would give
ourselves value.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
>justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
Knowledge is also realizing that words often have subjective meanings
and that people give all words their value and meaning. So knowledge
can be suggestive. I think you are referring to existance, which is
not the same as knowledge.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
>others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
>value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Survival of our species, which would be the ultimate goal of humanity
without god to do it for us, would make Hitler and others of his kind
to be the purest evil. While these things have been done in the name
of religion, they are not in the name of humanity.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
>places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
I value myself. I have others that value me. I earn the value I have
to people. For example, my value to you is based on my humanity and
whatever value you place on that while my value to my children would
obviously be much different. Atheists don't need some unknowable
entity to give them value. Our life and experience gives us value.
It must be a sad life that cannot find value within themselves and
those around them and so has to find it in some imaginary being.
#4 EAC Director of Education/Re-education, Head of Spells Division
AKA ClayeSkye
AKA Faith
Ichimusai
> The fact is, if all value is relative and subjective then you have
> no value to another, you are worth 5 CENTS if that.
Whatever. Randy Horny or whatever, go play on the highway
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai AOL: Ichimusai1972 MSN: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URL: http://www.ichimusai.org/
"If you don't measure, if we're having to guess whether or not our
children are learning, by the time it's too late we're going to find
out that they're not, if they're not."
-- George W Bush, MSNBC, 15-FEB-00
Denis Loubet
"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vali8rf...@corp.supernews.com...
> Why do humans believe they have value?
Because to believe humans have value proved to be an important evolutionary
selection tool. It helped to maintain close-knit human groups, which allowed
humans to survive better. Those that didn't believe they had value were
less likely to survive to reproduce.
> If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
Because that's the way the matter in motion in our brains makes us think.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do
you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
It is a brute fact that I believe I have value. That's all the justification
I need to know that it is true that I believe I have value.
Do I actually have value to the universe in a cosmic sense? There is no
reason to believe that I do. So I do not claim that I have intrinsic value.
That would be making something up.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler
or
> others did was o.k.,
Not to other humans who also believe that humans have value, but to the
universe at large? Sure.
> just part of the evolutionary process.
The evolutionary process has no one's best intrests at heart. Evolution is
not our friend, just like gravity and inertia.
> If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Because we BELIEVE we have value. That's a brute fact. Ignore it at your
peril.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
I don't. It's simply a brute fact that I believe I have value.
It's quite possible that by now you are crowing victory thinking that you
have shown that human belief in its own value is analogous to your belief in
god. It's not. Belief in my own value is only a statment about my own
subjective state. Your belief in god is a statment that attempts to impose
your subjective beliefs on objective reality.
That's fundamentally different.
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Al Klein
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
>that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
>should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
>justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
It's not "true", it's merely opinion.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
>others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
>value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Christians, like you and Hitler, obviously can. But some of us have
morals.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
>places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
We're all entitled to our informed opinions.
--
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Zymurgist # 2
Randy Story
> It's quite possible that by now you are crowing victory thinking that you
> have shown that human belief in its own value is analogous to your belief
in
> god. It's not. Belief in my own value is only a statment about my own
> subjective state. Your belief in god is a statment that attempts to impose
> your subjective beliefs on objective reality.
>
> That's fundamentally different.
>
> Denis Loubet
> dlo...@io.com
> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
hold their beliefs and the justification for them. Most here keep saying
that to knoe something is true it must be empirically known. What I keep
trying to show is that some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly
known. They come from outside of our experience, they are based in ultimate
reality itself, which the theist calls God.
>
>
>
Ichimusai
> Most here keep saying that to knoe something is true it must be
> empirically known.
Can you hear that? It sounds like... yes.. it is definitely a...
<PLONK!>
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai AOL: Ichimusai1972 MSN: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URL: http://www.ichimusai.org/
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.
John Popelish
>
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
This belief is reinforced by evolution. Individuals or groups that do
not feel this way are more likely to go extinct.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said,
I would like to see you quote anyone who has said anything like that.
> ...how do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
I don't have this belief. i have an emotional reaction that I want to
live and, by empathy (another emotional reaction) expect others to
have the same emotion that living is preferred to death. My reasoned
understanding is that we are just organized bits of matter with no
inherent worth compared to any other bits of matter. But I am both a
reasonable and emotional being.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Because doing so is not good for the survival of our genes, and
evolution has selected for the property of striving ot have our genes
survive. This is what we are. We did not choose this property. But
from a rational perspective, there is no significant detriment to the
universe if we blow the whole planet to dust. We have no cosmic
significance.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
So if God appeared and told you that he changed his mind and decided
that small pox virus is what really has value ot him, would you
volunteer to get yourself infected with small pox, for the glory of
god? I doubt it.
I think your emotional response to desire life over death is exactly
the same as the atheist's emotional response, except that you
rationalize this emotion with a fictional god story because it feels
so good.
How convenient for you that of all the matter in the universe, your
fictional god happens to pick your species as the reason the universe
exists. And almost as amazing, you are not at all surprised by his
choice. Then you criticize atheists for not having such a valid
reason to feel as self important as you do. *Sigh.*
--
John Popelish
Shmanky
Randy, what value do humans have as slaves to an overlord? We are like rats
in a maze if God controls the maze.
Liz
<vali8rf...@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
>that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
>should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
We are humans, and we egotistically value ourselves and those like us.
However, all opinions are not of equal value, nor should they all be
respected.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
>justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
What is an dcome?
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
>others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
>value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Nothing has intrinsic value. Value is assigned by humans based upon
the utility or the beauty of an object. Without humans to assign a
value, the question would never arise because gold would be no more or
less valuable than a bundle of sticks.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
>places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
Because unlike you, we actually like humans and assign value to their
lives and their interactions with other human lives.
Liz #658 BAAWA
4th Law: Most people cannot imagine a god morally superior
to themselves; if you want to know what such a person would
do if they had ultimate power, ask them about their deity.
-- Abner Mintz
Randy Story
> How convenient for you that of all the matter in the universe, your
> fictional god happens to pick your species as the reason the universe
> exists. And almost as amazing, you are not at all surprised by his
> choice. Then you criticize atheists for not having such a valid
> reason to feel as self important as you do. *Sigh.*
>
> --
> John Popelish
He doesnt, all life has value, but being the species with rationally it is
up to us to guard all others. So to summarize, all value is subjective, then
your statements have no value to me, they are worthless because they are
subjective to you alone. If you say they are subjective to all, then they
are objective, justify this objective truth.
Randy Story
"Liz" <ehu...@donotspam.com> wrote in message
news:ttplavsmhvrt8fob5...@4ax.com...
I dont just like or tolarate or like all, I love them. That is why I am
trying to get you to examine your beliefs and justify them.
As Socrates said 'The unexamined life is not worth living"
I would say " the unexamined and unjustified belief is not worth having"
Incenjucar
They value themselves (otherwise suicide rates would have wiped out the
species), and they value others. Those that they don't personally know,
they assume have similar values, and, to avoid conflict, value them in turn,
so that mutual values allow all individuals to survive. Those who do not
value others are punished for it, via prison or other means.
> If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
Because if we don't respect others, they won't respect us. It's a 'social
contract' that keeps us from dying out.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said,
That would be called an 'assumption'. Knowledge is when something is
PROVEN, not justified.
Justified beleif has included 'the world is flat' and 'bees magically appear
if you leave a dead ox in a field overnight'.
> how do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
I don't have a belief. I have a social contract.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler
or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Hitler violated the social contract and advanced war. He detrimented the
species and evolution.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him.
Fine. How does your deity justify -his- value? Oh, wait, YOU give it to
him, damn. Social contract.
> How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
I don't need to justify it. If you don't think I have value, and you try
and act on that, I'll break your wrist in self defense, and shove it up your
ass.
Freedom brings responsibility.
Randy Story
"Incenjucar" <Firew...@sierratel.com> wrote in message
news:3eaa...@news.sti.net...
So you cant justify it, you just believe it is true. Thats O.K. but dont say
you know you have value. You can believe in any unjustified or unproven
belief you want, its O.K. by me!!
>
>
GlennGlenn
<rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
> hold their beliefs and the justification for them.
However, you have not demonstrated yourself worthy of the time required
to take up the "issues" you bring up. You clearly have an agenda and a
set of assumptions that you assume are true.
Yet there has been no evidence that you're willing to make a good faith
effort to challenge your own positions.
Instead you take this pedantic, patronizing tone, like a colonial
conqueror looking over the ignorant masses.
Feh.
--
*GlennGlenn -- Lost & seeing double somewhere in Hollywood, CA -- aa#825*
The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no
longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident
that the end of the world is fast approaching.
‹ Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC
Liz
<rsto...@olypen.com> in news message
<valqsgf...@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
>I dont just like or tolarate or like all, I love them. That is why I am
>trying to get you to examine your beliefs and justify them.
Then you should have no problem understanding why others value human
life.
I have examined my beliefs and they are justified by real world
evidence. I do not need your approval of my beliefs, nor do I need
the approval of your imaginary friend.
>
>As Socrates said 'The unexamined life is not worth living"
>I would say " the unexamined and unjustified belief is not worth having"
If you actually believed that you would act upon it and not merely
type the words. Please explain what difference exists between God®
assigning a value to humans and Lint® assigning a value to human.
Liz #658 BAAWA
THERE IS NO WAY, EVEN IN PRINCIPLE, TO DISTINGUISH ONE
SUPERNATURAL EXPLANATION FROM ANOTHER. -- "Hiero5ant"
GlennGlenn
> some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly known. They come
> from outside of our experience, they are based in ultimate reality
> itself, which the theist calls God.
Um, yeah. Tell that to all theists. They'll call you an new-ager or
an agnostic and dismiss your allegations of adhering to any faith.
God is that "whatever" that's out there, somewhere beyond our empirical
experience.
Gad, what a load. Might as well call thunder a god-fart.
Randy Story
"GlennGlenn" <dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
news:260420031352028180%dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com...
To Glenn: I have studied tons of evidence, I am not trying to be patronizing
but I do believe the interpretation better fits an intelligent creator then
omnipotent chance.
Randy Story
Maybe you should study christian philosophy and you would see that my view
are in accord perfectly with bibical thought.
Randy Story
> type the words. Please explain what difference exists between God®
> assigning a value to humans and Lint® assigning a value to human.
>
>
>
> Liz #658 BAAWA
>
> THERE IS NO WAY, EVEN IN PRINCIPLE, TO DISTINGUISH ONE
> SUPERNATURAL EXPLANATION FROM ANOTHER. -- "Hiero5ant"
Because we are a effect of the cause which has infinite value.
H...@bells.net
Value, huh? Ok. Today's word to play on to push your view. Well, it's
a good word to use to blur the issue because it is relative and has
many connotations, therefore can be spun any which way to sound
important and true.
It's another attempt to equate atheists to evil amoral scumbags.
It ain't so, folks. We are not evil amoral scumbags. If we didn't
feel valuable, we'd give up living anyway. Not any religion or lack of
it has an exclusive link to value. Anyone who isn't suicidal knows
this, bible, god or not.
Atheists don't need an invisible genie to boost our sense of value. We
know ourselves without bowing (and paying) to someone who tells us
what we are or should be.
It's common sense. We have it.
H Bells
JTEM
"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote
> Why do humans believe they have value?
I don't believe you have any "value."
Then again, I'm not entirely convinced that you're human.
H...@bells.net
Getting a little loopy for me, here. I've always suspected that one
injects confusion when losing an argument.
Your statements have no value to me, for the same reason you just
splattered into the debate. Neener Neener, Hee Hee HAR!.
H Bells.
John Popelish
>
> > How convenient for you that of all the matter in the universe, your
> > fictional god happens to pick your species as the reason the universe
> > exists. And almost as amazing, you are not at all surprised by his
> > choice. Then you criticize atheists for not having such a valid
> > reason to feel as self important as you do. *Sigh.*
> >
> > --
> > John Popelish
>
> He doesnt, all life has value, but being the species with rationally it is
> up to us to guard all others.
I would be interested to see your rational argument for both of these
assertions.
> So to summarize, all value is subjective, then
> your statements have no value to me, they are worthless because they are
> subjective to you alone.
I am indifferent to what has value to you.
> If you say they are subjective to all, then they
> are objective, justify this objective truth.
Sorry. I can't parse this.
--
John Popelish
H...@bells.net
WOW. Let's see If I understand this. As far as I can tell, Randy's
text has the least amount of ">"s in the left margin if he/she is the
author.
If so, Randy typed "the unexamined and unjustified belief is not
worth having".
If that was you, Randy, you have totally looped and defeated yourself
in one statement.
Delicious, bordering on scrumptious.
H Bells.
H...@bells.net
The statement on the other side, that says that this one is true, is
false.
I ain't fattenin' no frogs for snakes.
Now we are getting somewhere.
H Bells
Russell Turpin
> Why do humans believe they have value? If
> materialists are correct, that we are just
> matter in motion then why do we all believe
> human life should be respected or that one's
> said, how do you justify the belief that you
> have value an dcome to know this is true.
These questions betray a common but fallacious
understanding of value. Value is not something
we find outside of us, like the motion of the
planets, but something we assign, from
ourselves. That's as true for the religious
as it is for the non-religious. The religious
can make a big to-do about their values being
those that god directs. But that begs the
question: WHY do they accept god's direction
as having value, in this regard? The answer
to that reveals the believer's base values,
the ones that come from the believer himself,
not from god. (That's a truth that religion
is designed to hide, and that most believers
will not admit to themselves.)
Of course, there are truths about values and
some people value truth. Modalities interact.
That doesn't change the fact that truth and
value are ultimately different modalities.
That is the case, even if there is a god out
there, or a legion of them. They can define
only their own values, not yours.
GlennGlenn
<rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> "Incenjucar" <Firew...@sierratel.com> wrote in message
> news:3eaa...@news.sti.net...
> >
> > "Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote in message
> > news:vali8rf...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Why do humans believe they have value?
> >
> > They value themselves (otherwise suicide rates would have wiped out
> > the species), and they value others. Those that they don't
> > personally know, they assume have similar values, and, to avoid
> > conflict, value them in turn, so that mutual values allow all
> > individuals to survive. Those who do not value others are punished
> > for it, via prison or other means.
> >
> > > If materialists are correct, that we are just matter in motion
> > > then why do we all believe human life should be respected or that
> > > one's opinion should be respected.
> >
> > Because if we don't respect others, they won't respect us. It's a
> > 'social contract' that keeps us from dying out.
No response to this?
> > > If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said,
> >
> > That would be called an 'assumption'. Knowledge is when something
> > is PROVEN, not justified.
Assumptions that bear themselves out to be true day in and day out when
we walk among other people and note how we are treated by them.
> > Justified beleif has included 'the world is flat' and 'bees
> > magically appear if you leave a dead ox in a field overnight'.
> >
> > > how do you justify the belief that you have value an dcome to
> > > know this is true.
> >
> > I don't have a belief. I have a social contract.
Still no response?
> > > If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what
> > > Hitler or others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary
> > > process. If we have no value why cant we just do to each
> > > other as we please.
> >
> > Hitler violated the social contract and advanced war. He detrimented the
> > species and evolution.
No response even now?
> > > The theist justifies that he has value because he was created
> > > and God places value on him.
> >
> > Fine. How does your deity justify -his- value? Oh, wait, YOU give
> > it to him, damn. Social contract.
Exactly. A largely unwritten contract created by humans for humans.
It has worked so well that the human reproduction rate far exceeds the
death rate.
> > > How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
> >
> > I don't need to justify it. If you don't think I have value, and
> > you try and act on that, I'll break your wrist in self defense, and
> > shove it up your ass.
> >
> > Freedom brings responsibility.
>
> So you cant justify it, you just believe it is true. Thats O.K. but dont say
> you know you have value. You can believe in any unjustified or unproven
> belief you want, its O.K. by me!!
The social contract was created by society. There's no question that
this is something we made. What *you* won't admit to is that your god
is similarly made by humans.
We don't pretend that some creator entity makes us behave in this way.
We don't pray to a consciousness in some uncertain realm that the
social contract will not smite us or send us to an eternal punishment.
We know that it doesn't work that way.
You, however, appear to be convinced of this.
But you can believe whatever unjustified or unproven belief you want.
GlennGlenn
<rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> "GlennGlenn" <dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
> news:260420031352028180%dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com...
> > In article <valmhcn...@corp.supernews.com>, Randy Story
> > <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
> > > hold their beliefs and the justification for them.
> >
> > However, you have not demonstrated yourself worthy of the time required
> > to take up the "issues" you bring up. You clearly have an agenda and a
> > set of assumptions that you assume are true.
> >
> > Yet there has been no evidence that you're willing to make a good faith
> > effort to challenge your own positions.
> >
> > Instead you take this pedantic, patronizing tone, like a colonial
> > conqueror looking over the ignorant masses.
> >
> > Feh.
>
> To Glenn: I have studied tons of evidence,
Don't change the subject. You have *presented* no evidence that you
are actually presenting a good-faith argument.
> I am not trying to be patronizing but I do believe the interpretation
> better fits an intelligent creator then omnipotent chance.
What interpretation? You're making no sense. There's no logical
connection between issues of perfection or value and the actual
concrete existence of Your Favorite Deity®. Get over it, you
patronizing, mendacious preacher.
GlennGlenn
<rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> "GlennGlenn" <dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
> news:260420031354568645%dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com...
> > In article <valmhcn...@corp.supernews.com>, Randy Story
> > <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> >
> > > some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly known. They come
> > > from outside of our experience, they are based in ultimate reality
> > > itself, which the theist calls God.
> >
> > Um, yeah. Tell that to all theists. They'll call you an new-ager or
> > an agnostic and dismiss your allegations of adhering to any faith.
> >
> > God is that "whatever" that's out there, somewhere beyond our empirical
> > experience.
> >
> > Gad, what a load. Might as well call thunder a god-fart.
>
> Maybe you should study christian philosophy and you would see that my view
> are in accord perfectly with bibical thought.
Where do talking snakes, global floods, God-sanctioned genocide and
rape, and a half-god's three-day nap fit into this philosophy of which
you speak?
Liz
<rsto...@olypen.com> in news message
<valt342...@corp.supernews.com> wrote:
>> If you actually believed that you would act upon it and not merely
>> type the words. Please explain what difference exists between God®
>> assigning a value to humans and Lint® assigning a value to human.
>>
>
>Because we are a effect of the cause which has infinite value.
How do you assign infinite value to something?
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
Ash
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
>
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
>
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
>
Ooh, perhaps you and Jabbers should get together
--
#1636 again
Walking on Glass
in alt.atheism, news:valqsgf...@corp.supernews.com:
I am already quite happy that I can justify my non-belief in whatever god
you care to name.
> As Socrates said 'The unexamined life is not worth living"
> I would say " the unexamined and unjustified belief is not worth
> having"
Many atheists on this group are ex-Christians, who did precisely this
examination of their beliefs. You would be better off pitching your
intentions at the hordes of Christians that never stop to question their
belief.
--
Walking on Glass (remove NOSPAM to email me)
AA #2053 Zymurgist #12
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or
you can inoculate...Try science"
Carl Sagan - "The Demon-Haunted World"
Mark K. Bilbo
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
We don't have to.
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
_________________________________________________________________
"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree
that it would be perverse to withold provisional assent."
I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the
possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
[Stephen Jay Gould]
*Nemo*
"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
>
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
>
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
>
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
>
>
Depends on *who* places that value, doesn't it? I value all humans as
more important that the rest of the universe, but only because they're
like me to some degree. That's only natural, considering I'm a member of
a social species.
From the point of view of the universe, I recognize that I'm just
another mass of atoms, no different from any other. That doesn't bother
me, considering that the universe isn't (so far as I can detect) an
intelligent entity. I see no reason to be bothered by such concerns, to
be honest.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
Woden
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are
> correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human
> life should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
>
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how
> do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
>
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what
> Hitler or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have
> no value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
>
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and
> God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
>
>
I find it rather sad that you think that your "value" is based on an
imaginary friend.
By the way, why do I need to "justfiy" my value?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Douglas Berry
"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
>that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
>should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
I value myself because I am aware of my existence. I like being
alive.. I have seen the alternative. I believe that life is worth
living on its own merits. Some people lose this focus, and kill
themselves.
I value other people because I am descended from social primates. We
are, by nature, clannish. We like other humans, and enjoy their
company. In our groups, we value other humans for their contributions
and presence. When this instinct goes wrong, we call it sociopathy.
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
>justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
"Cogito, Ergo Sum" I know I exist. I know my friend exist. I have
experienced them at close range and sensed them. I have pretty good
clues that about 3 million people live in the Bay Area. I've also
seen, heard, smelled, touched and tasted enough people around the
world to conclude that there are 6 billion people on Earth. Since we
are of the same species, I grant them the basic value I give people I
know.. they deserve to live until they do something to change that
opinion.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
>others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
>value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
Hitler violated our genetic and social programming. We react to mass
killings of our own species with horror. Much in they way baboons do.
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
>places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
I don't have too. I am, and that is sufficient to me. I don't need
to justify myself like a child begging for attention from Daddy. Why
don't you accept that your life is what you make it?
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Douglas Berry
>Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
>hold their beliefs and the justification for them. Most here keep saying
>that to knoe something is true it must be empirically known. What I keep
>trying to show is that some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly
>known. They come from outside of our experience, they are based in ultimate
>reality itself, which the theist calls God.
Justify your beliefs, please.
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> writes:
>>> Because we do have value. To our selves. We do not wish other people
>>> to do what they please with us.
>> If your value is only because you subjectively believe it, why
>> should another value your subjective belief.
>By extension of his own value. This is not terribly hard to
>understand.
It is for people whose only morals are borrowed, Ichi.
--
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Zymurgist # 2
Frank Wustner
> Why do humans believe they have value?
Why shouldn't we?
--
Frank Wustner
http://frankwustner.myrmid.com/
|----------------------------------|----------------------------------|
|"Advice is a form of nostalgia. | Atheist #119 |
|Dispensing it means fishing the | Knight of BAAWA! |
|past from the disposal, wiping it |----------------------------------|
|off, painting over the ugly parts,| Want to email me? Go to the URL |
|and recycling it for more than | above and email me from there. |
|it's worth." Mary Schmich |----------------------------------|
|----------------------------------|
quibbler
says...
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
Materialists can still hold that certain actions are more significant
than others. The operations of the human brain are substantially more
complicated and useful than the actions of a rock in general (unless the
human happens to be a fundy). Human life is valuable because of what we
can contribute in terms of thoughts and experiences and to a lesser
extent, certain other physical activities. By this standard, keeping a
permanently comatose, brain-dead patient on life support has little or no
value, expect possibly on an emotional level for some of the people who
know the patient before.
>
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
If there is some other superior standard for judging the value of life
then we must be able to discover this by some means and test it against
the present system in order to verify its superiority. Otherwise it is
useless, even if true. The evidence seems to show that people, either by
their own admission, or tacitly through their actions, tend to apply a
rather utilitarian calculus to things like human life. Some will talk
about fine principles. But when it comes right down to it, many people
evaluate human value in terms of the kinds of intellectual and physical
contributions that said human can perform. Most people, including even
some xians, would therefore agree that the life of Einstein was more
valuable than the life of some retard. In a like way, the life of a
fetus is not held to be as valuable as the life of an adult.
>
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process.
Hitler's premise that certain racial groups were inferior, seems to be
quite simply incorrect. The data does not back up the conclusion. But
even if it did, it may not be necessary to have perfection in society.
Again, many people don't measure up to the level of Einstein, but this is
not mean that they are necessarily worthless. The real shame of the
holocaust was that hitler destroyed many smart, loyal, healthy, talented
and otherwise productive people without any adequate cause. Since the
destruction of life is permanent, one generally needs pretty good
justification. Hitler did not have any. He just found it convenient to
vilify them.
>If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
We do have value in most cases. By being functioning human beings we all
have certain, at least minimum value at least by default. As a result we
often recognize this fact in government by extending rights and roughly
allowing a person to treat his body as his own personal property. As a
result of this, one often cannot treat others as we please. On top of
that, other people might not let us behave how every we wish toward them.
>
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
I'm not sure they all do it the same way, but at least some atheists feel
that one could fairly objectively compare the worth of various different
kinds of people if necessary. We all seem to have certain roles and
capabilities which make us valuable to ourselves and others.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that
faith does not prove anything." (Friedrich Nietzsche)
Denis Loubet
"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:valmhcn...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > It's quite possible that by now you are crowing victory thinking that
you
> > have shown that human belief in its own value is analogous to your
belief
> in
> > god. It's not. Belief in my own value is only a statment about my own
> > subjective state. Your belief in god is a statment that attempts to
impose
> > your subjective beliefs on objective reality.
> >
> > That's fundamentally different.
> >
> > Denis Loubet
> > dlo...@io.com
> > http://www.io.com/~dloubet
>
> Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
> hold their beliefs and the justification for them.
Then why are you trying to convince us of the validity of yours?
> Most here keep saying
> that to knoe something is true it must be empirically known.
Yes. To do anything else is called making something up.
> What I keep
> trying to show is that some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly
> known.
Not mine. I state quite plainly that there's no reason to believe that
humans have intrinsic value. I also state that humans have objectively
verifiable value to other humans. Teamwork is sought after for a reason.
> They come from outside of our experience,
You try, but you offer no evidence to support that.
> they are based in ultimate
> reality itself,
You offer no evidence to support that either.
> which the theist calls God.
We're well aware that theists have irrational beliefs.
--
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Denis Loubet
>
>
> > How convenient for you that of all the matter in the universe, your
> > fictional god happens to pick your species as the reason the universe
> > exists. And almost as amazing, you are not at all surprised by his
> > choice. Then you criticize atheists for not having such a valid
> > reason to feel as self important as you do. *Sigh.*
> >
> > --
> > John Popelish
>
>
> He doesnt, all life has value, but being the species with rationally it is
> up to us to guard all others.
If this species has rationality, why don't you use yours?
> So to summarize, all value is subjective, then
> your statements have no value to me, they are worthless because they are
> subjective to you alone.
Well, there are objective effects of subjective values. If you violate the
values shared by civilization, you will suffer the consequences. So your
personal subjective state rests on your acceptance of the values of others.
> If you say they are subjective to all, then they
> are objective, justify this objective truth.
No. Everyone has their own subjective values. Those values result in
objective behaviors, so the subjective values have objective effects. Those
effects can then have an impact on your own subjective state.
Denis Loubet
> > > Why do humans believe they have value?
> >
> > species), and they value others. Those that they don't personally know,
> > they assume have similar values, and, to avoid conflict, value them in
> turn,
> > so that mutual values allow all individuals to survive. Those who do
not
> > value others are punished for it, via prison or other means.
> >
> > > that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human
life
> > > should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
> >
'social
> > contract' that keeps us from dying out.
> >
> >
> > PROVEN, not justified.
> >
> appear
> > if you leave a dead ox in a field overnight'.
> >
> > > justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
> >
> >
Hitler
> > or
> no
> > > value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
> >
the
> > species and evolution.
> >
> God
> > > places value on him.
> >
to
> > him, damn. Social contract.
> >
> >
try
> > and act on that, I'll break your wrist in self defense, and shove it up
> your
> > ass.
> >
> > Freedom brings responsibility.
>
> So you cant justify it, you just believe it is true.
No, that's not what he said. Humans have objective value to other humans.
That's a fact.
> Thats O.K. but dont say
> you know you have value.
He can demonstrate that he has value to other humans. That's more than your
god-thing can do.
> You can believe in any unjustified or unproven
> belief you want, its O.K. by me!!
Except his seem to be justified, unlike yours.
Ichimusai
And yet they claim their god invented the golden rule. Sheesh. What a
load of doublethink crap they must carry around.
--
AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai AOL: Ichimusai1972 MSN: Ichimusai
IRC: Ichimusai#AmigaSWE@IRCnet URL: http://www.ichimusai.org/
Pain is a higher form of pleasure.
-- Enyah, #AmigaSWE@IRCnet
xyzzy
> Why do humans believe they have value?
Why do cats and dogs believe they have value? In fact, I would say
that human belief in self-worth is less than that of cats and dogs.
Compare the suicide rates, lethal violence (incluing wars.. etc)
between the species and you will see that we humans respect life and
the value of our species much less than common household pets. It is
even more striking when you realize that the consciousness of self for
the felines and the canines are probably way lower than humans, not to
mention that a few thinking humans have been struggling for ages to
formalize and legalize what little instinctive value we have for
ourselves in order to make human societies a safe place to live. It's
a miracle that we haven't yet wiped our own species off of the planet.
I would say that most other animals are much better equipped through
evolution in terms of valuing their lives and their own and kind (we
offset that disadvantage with our raw brainpower). Have you ever
approached a bear wih cubs, or even a lowly sparrow with eggs in her
nest? Don't tell me those animals don't value their existance. And
don't tell me that they do so because of their gods.
xyzzy
> Why do humans believe they have value?
See my previous reply. But I have another question for you: What do
you think, does God believe _he_ has value? Why (In particular, where
does the justification of his self-worth come from)? Why not?
Elroy Willis
> Randy Story <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
Good questions. Think he'll answer 'em?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Mark K. Bilbo
>
> So you cant justify it, you just believe it is true. Thats O.K. but dont say
> you know you have value. You can believe in any unjustified or unproven
> belief you want, its O.K. by me!!
You're begging the question dumbass.
Feeling "value" is subjective to begin with...
Mark K. Bilbo
>
>> It's quite possible that by now you are crowing victory thinking that you
>> have shown that human belief in its own value is analogous to your belief
> in
>> god. It's not. Belief in my own value is only a statment about my own
>> subjective state. Your belief in god is a statment that attempts to impose
>> your subjective beliefs on objective reality.
>>
>> That's fundamentally different.
>>
>> Denis Loubet
>> dlo...@io.com
>> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
>
> Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
> hold their beliefs and the justification for them.
You're failing.
> Most here keep saying
> that to knoe something is true it must be empirically known. What I keep
> trying to show is that some of our most core beliefs are not empiriclly
> known. They come from outside of our experience, they are based in ultimate
> reality itself, which the theist calls God.
That's absurd. Gravity is not god.
Mark K. Bilbo
>
> "GlennGlenn" <dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com> wrote in message
> news:260420031352028180%dipthot...@yahoo.yahoo.com.com...
>> In article <valmhcn...@corp.supernews.com>, Randy Story
>> <rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Denis: My goal is not to win, my goal is that all truly examine why that
>> > hold their beliefs and the justification for them.
>>
>> However, you have not demonstrated yourself worthy of the time required
>> to take up the "issues" you bring up. You clearly have an agenda and a
>> set of assumptions that you assume are true.
>>
>> Yet there has been no evidence that you're willing to make a good faith
>> effort to challenge your own positions.
>>
>> Instead you take this pedantic, patronizing tone, like a colonial
>> conqueror looking over the ignorant masses.
>>
>> Feh.
>>
>> --
>> *GlennGlenn -- Lost & seeing double somewhere in Hollywood, CA --
> aa#825*
>> The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children
> no
>> longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is
> evident
>> that the end of the world is fast approaching.
>> < Assyrian tablet, c.
> 2800 BC
>
>
> To Glenn: I have studied tons of evidence, I am not trying to be patronizing
> but I do believe the interpretation better fits an intelligent creator then
> omnipotent chance.
You are patronizing.
Elroy Willis
<snip>
> I would say that most other animals are much better equipped through
> evolution in terms of valuing their lives and their own and kind (we
> offset that disadvantage with our raw brainpower). Have you ever
> approached a bear wih cubs, or even a lowly sparrow with eggs in her
> nest? Don't tell me those animals don't value their existance. And
> don't tell me that they do so because of their gods.
Try sticking your finger in a fire-ant mound and see what happens.
The warrior ants are ready to fight and die to protect the colony and
the queen and their hive/territory, just like human soldiers are ready
to die for their country to protect the king or queen or president and
their little piece of land in the world. Not much difference really.
All animals, insects included, are pretty much consumers and
harvesters of resources just like ants, and our hives/countries seek
out sources of food/energy to keep us alive. When a source of
food/energy is found, competition for it becomes fierce sometimes.
A bunch of ants fighting over some cookie crumbs on a sidewalk
is really no different than us humans fighting over a patch of land
that has oil under it, don't you think?
MarkA
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
>
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do
> you
> justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
>
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler
> or
> others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
> value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
>
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
You have VALUE because you are amusing to us. Like watching a fish
flopping on the ground gasping to breath; that is what it is like
listening to theists like you trying to come up with some rationalization
for your beliefs. Unlike the fish, however, you can decide at any time to
abandon your hopeless belief system and join we atheists, to whom the
world makes perfect sense.
--
MarkA
> this space intentionally left blank <
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> writes:
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:51:00 +0200, Ichimusai <ic...@ichimusai.org>
>> posted in alt.atheism:
>>>"Randy Story" <rsto...@olypen.com> writes:
>>>>> Because we do have value. To our selves. We do not wish other people
>>>>> to do what they please with us.
>>>> If your value is only because you subjectively believe it, why
>>>> should another value your subjective belief.
>>>By extension of his own value. This is not terribly hard to
>>>understand.
>> It is for people whose only morals are borrowed, Ichi.
>And yet they claim their god invented the golden rule. Sheesh. What a
>load of doublethink crap they must carry around.
Their god invented it and they borrowed it, since they have no morals
of their own. They didn't recognize the golden rule, which had been
invented at least a few thousand years before Christianity. Then, all
of a sudden, their god "invented" it.
---
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side." - Celsus (2nd century C.E.)
aklein at optonline dot net
Mike Smith
=Why do humans believe they have value?
Value is meaningless by itself. Something is valued
*by* someone, *for* something.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"He that is not with me is against me; and he that
gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." - Mt 12:30
Mark K. Bilbo
>
>
>> How convenient for you that of all the matter in the universe, your
>> fictional god happens to pick your species as the reason the universe
>> exists. And almost as amazing, you are not at all surprised by his
>> choice. Then you criticize atheists for not having such a valid
>> reason to feel as self important as you do. *Sigh.*
>>
>> --
>> John Popelish
>
>
> He doesnt, all life has value, but being the species with rationally it is
> up to us to guard all others. So to summarize, all value is subjective, then
> your statements have no value to me, they are worthless because they are
> subjective to you alone. If you say they are subjective to all, then they
> are objective, justify this objective truth.
Is there an English translation for this?
Mark K. Bilbo
> I dont just like or tolarate or like all, I love them. That is why I am
> trying to get you to examine your beliefs and justify them.
Well, you're not doing a very good job...
Mark K. Bilbo
>> If you actually believed that you would act upon it and not merely
>> type the words. Please explain what difference exists between God®
>> assigning a value to humans and Lint® assigning a value to human.
>>
>>
>>
>> Liz #658 BAAWA
>>
>> THERE IS NO WAY, EVEN IN PRINCIPLE, TO DISTINGUISH ONE
>> SUPERNATURAL EXPLANATION FROM ANOTHER. -- "Hiero5ant"
>
> Because we are a effect of the cause which has infinite value.
That's one of the more content free statements you've made...
Mark Richardson
<rsto...@olypen.com> wrote:
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
>that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
>should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
>
The magic word is "just".
Are we matter in motion - yes.
Are we "just" matter in motion?
I don't know - what does the word "just" signify here?
We are not of any value if we a re "just" matter in motion?
How do you know that?
What is it tells you that is true?
If we are matter in motion PLUS an imortal soul we are suddenly of
value ?
Why?
How do you know /decide that?
> If knowledge is JUSTIFIED true belief as many here have said, how do you
>justify the belief that you have value an dcome to know this is true.
Our values are not "knowledge" in the imperical sense.
We create/choose our values.
> If it can not be justified that we have value then maybe what Hitler or
>others did was o.k., just part of the evolutionary process. If we have no
>value why cant we just do to each other as we please.
>
Why do we have no value?
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
>places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
>
How does the existence of God justify a theists values?
I would like this explained in detail.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
Andrew Lias
> Why do humans believe they have value? If materialists are correct,
> that we are just matter in motion then why do we all believe human life
> should be respected or that one's opinion should be respected.
First of all, you are engaging in what I call the "Fallacy of Just",
which is to imply that a given thing can be evaluated by its most
generic aspects or features. As such, one could say that the Mona
Lisa is "just pigments on a canvas" or that The Thinker is "just a
bunch of granite".
We are not "just matter in motion", we are a very unusual specific
example of matter in motion. We have traits and properties that
distinguish us from the vast majority of matter in the universe
including, at the simple biological level, the properties of
metabolism, reproduction, heredity, and so forth. Beyond that, we
have the very unusual property of cognition and emotion. We are,
quite literally, one of the few parts of the universe that can
actually contemplate and have feelings about other parts of the
universe. In even the most strictly objective terms, that makes us
special, your efforts to imply that we are "just" matter not
withstanding.
As for value, value, in terms of worth, is, by definition, a
subjective property. There is no fundamental constant of "worth", nor
does worth appear even if we suppose some sort of spiritual
meta-existence. For something to have worth, it must be worth
something to *someone* or some *others*. The assignment of worth is a
trait of sentient beings. Note that we *are* sentient beings. As
such, our very worth is defined *by* us. We are both creators of
worth and bestowers of worth.
Although worms do not value us, nor do rocks, trees, or rivers, we
value each other. One need look no further. You may, of course,
object that this isn't "real" in the sense that, for instance,
electrons are real, but that objection would have all the sophistic
value of proclaiming that a given person isn't "rich" or "poor" since
money is, after all, ultimately nothing more than a communal
agreement.
[...]
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
By saying that we are born that we we place value upon one another.
Unlike the theist, of course, the source of our value is manifest and
indisputable, whereas God, in spite of the efforts of thousands of
apologists across thousands of years, remains no more than an
evocative conjecture.
--
Andrew Lias
Mark Richardson
wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
>
>By saying that we are born that we we place value upon one another.
>Unlike the theist, of course, the source of our value is manifest and
>indisputable, whereas God, in spite of the efforts of thousands of
>apologists across thousands of years, remains no more than an
>evocative conjecture.
Well said Andrew!
If I can decide my favorite paragraph I'll nominate it for QOTM!
8-)
I think I may be chronically indecisive - but I am not sure.
Elf M. Sternberg
> The theist justifies that he has value because he was created and God
> places value on him. How do atheists JUSTIFY their value??
By reciprocity.
Elf
--
Elf M. Sternberg, Immanentizing the Eschaton since 1988
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/
"The apocalypse may be closer at hand than even John Derbyshire thinks:
what the hell is Elf Sternberg doing reading Derb's columns?"
-- Charles Murtaugh