Aggression-"Domestic Violence"
Theresa Ornell
Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>
> Theresa Ornell wrote:
> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
>
> > Dear Menega, look at some of Donna Cunninghams books, she talks alot
> > about domestic violence, and "signatures" one should look out for. Adult
> > children of alcoholics, are sometimes drawn towards abusive
> > relationships. Usually men who are prone to using violence to control
> > others have a low self esteem and have often been abused themselves as
> > children. Pointing out particular aspects is sometimes difficult. For
> > example not every man that has some or a combination of these aspects,
> > (Mars/Pluto, Sun/Pluto, Moon/Mars, Moon/Uranus, Mars/Saturn,
> > Sun/Neptune, Mars/Uranus, Saturn/Pluto, Moon/Pluto Sun/Uranus) is going
> > to be an abusive person. Looking at the fourth/tenth house may give
> > clues as to what the emotional environment during childhood was like. If
> > the mans Moon has alot of stressful aspects, this may show a problematic
> > relationship to his mother, especially if his Moon is in the twelvth
> > house; he may have alot of unaknowledged hate towards her. The same
> > would be for the Sun, representing the father. I find that Wolfgang
> > Doebereiners "schicksalpunkte" very helpful because they lead to hidden
> > aspects in a chart that may otherwise go undetected. For example, 27-28
> > Cancer is Mars/Pluto, so if a man has his Moon here its like having
> > Moon/Mars/Pluto. Twenty-two degrees Gemini/Sagitarius/Pisces/Virgo are
> > also critical degrees, as well as 2degrees Sagitarius/Mars/Pluto, or two
> > degrees Gemini/Saturn/Mercury, 12 degrees Gemini/Sagitarius. Very few of
> > his books have been translated so if you don't speak German it might be
> > difficult to research. I think the only way to re-channel violence in
> > men that are abusive is having them openly admit to their problems;
> > there is often a great deal of denial, such as, if they (others) behaved
> > differently I wouldn't have to hit ect. Some of the men may have major
> > psychological impairments, like manic-depression, border-line syndrome,
> > schizo-affective syndrome ect. so they would need therapy to work out
> > those problems. When looking at the statistics of abuse in the USA it's
> > very discouraging, it seems that very few men are able to change for the
> > better. If the person is willing to get help there are numerous methods
> > of healing, the difficulty is getting them to that point. There is also
> > the word "fremdbesetz" which means posessed by someone or something,
> > this would be going in the direction of sociopathic behavior. I don't
> > know, in these cases maybe rebirthing could be of help. I hope this
> > wasn't all too general or banal.
> > > Coleen
>
> Dear Coleen,
> I don愒 find your comments in the least too general or banal. The part
> about the "Schicksalspunkte" was new to me; language is no problem as I
> live in Austria.
> What I should have mentioned in my first posting: I am looking at charts
> of men (not the women in abusive relationships) who seem to be making an
> honest effort, through therapy etc., to get a grip on themselves. I am
> not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
> processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
> charts and to talk to them a bit.
> And this is the interesting thing: I have found such things as Moon
> conjunct Saturn in third house or Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjuncts opposite
> Saturn or sixth house emphasis (Saturn heavies are a recurring theme
> with this group) but almost no 4th/10th or 12th house placings and
> surprisingly few stressful Neptune contacts. I found lots of
> inconjuncts, quite a number of yods whith Uranus and/or Pluto as apex
> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
> Menega
Dear Menega, Saturn/Moon conjuncts don't surprise me, they're indicative
of depression, and dependency. The emotions of these people remain
hermetically sealed in the subconscious and being in the third house,
all the more difficult to verbalise. So what you get is frustration and
uncontrolled aggression. If you haven't found any fourth/tenth house
issues which are relevant, then perhaps these particular men witnessed
the abuse happening between their parents. In this case one might find
Sun/Moon aspects in discord. It surprises me that Neptune plays such a
small role as one often reads about alcohol being an issue. Did you
check for Midpoints, or Spiegelpunkte? I haven't worked with yods so I
can't add to this. Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjuncts in opposition to Saturn
can be very explosive. The six house emphasis points to ones living
conditions, Saturn here might mean they feel burdened by responsibility
or some limitations imposed on them by their situation, whether it be
work, home, or health. If there are many restricting elements, the
feeling of being cornered in, even if it's because of their emotional
handicaps, could impel them to leash out at whatever is within reach.
Some people think that men who abuse women and children are like
pedophiles, they admit their problems, and may even comply to therapy,
but the problem remains. They will always be at risk of not directing
their will in manners acceptable to society. Maybe it's partly
genetic...Wenn schon in Austria, denn lies mal Wolfgang Doebereiner, der
ist meiner Meinung nach einer der beste Astrologe die es gibt!
Tschuess,
Coleen
Menega Sabidussi
Dear People!
Maybe others think this is basic stuff but I am finding it to be not
quite so simplistic:
In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man=B4s
chart for marked aggression against family members (not just against
found that would tend to re-channel that aggression and to what outcome?
Menega
Theresa Ornell
Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>
> Dear People!
> Maybe others think this is basic stuff but I am finding it to be not
> quite so simplistic:
> chart for marked aggression against family members (not just against
> their wives but the children as well) and what other elements have you
> found that would tend to re-channel that aggression and to what outcome?
> Menega
Menega Sabidussi
Theresa Ornell wrote:
> Menega Sabidussi wrote:
s chart for marked aggression against family members (not just against th=
eir wives but the children as well) ...
> Dear Menega, look at some of Donna Cunninghams books, she talks alot
> about domestic violence, and "signatures" one should look out for. Adul=
t
> children of alcoholics, are sometimes drawn towards abusive
> relationships. Usually men who are prone to using violence to control
> others have a low self esteem and have often been abused themselves as
> children. Pointing out particular aspects is sometimes difficult. For
> example not every man that has some or a combination of these aspects,
> (Mars/Pluto, Sun/Pluto, Moon/Mars, Moon/Uranus, Mars/Saturn,
> Sun/Neptune, Mars/Uranus, Saturn/Pluto, Moon/Pluto Sun/Uranus) is going=
> to be an abusive person. Looking at the fourth/tenth house may give
> clues as to what the emotional environment during childhood was like. I=
f
> the mans Moon has alot of stressful aspects, this may show a problemati=
c
> relationship to his mother, especially if his Moon is in the twelvth
> house; he may have alot of unaknowledged hate towards her. The same
> would be for the Sun, representing the father. I find that Wolfgang
> Doebereiners "schicksalpunkte" very helpful because they lead to hidden=
> aspects in a chart that may otherwise go undetected. For example, 27-28=
> Cancer is Mars/Pluto, so if a man has his Moon here its like having
> Moon/Mars/Pluto. Twenty-two degrees Gemini/Sagitarius/Pisces/Virgo are
> also critical degrees, as well as 2degrees Sagitarius/Mars/Pluto, or tw=
o
> degrees Gemini/Saturn/Mercury, 12 degrees Gemini/Sagitarius. Very few o=
f
> his books have been translated so if you don't speak German it might be=
> difficult to research. I think the only way to re-channel violence in
> men that are abusive is having them openly admit to their problems;
> there is often a great deal of denial, such as, if they (others) behave=
d
> differently I wouldn't have to hit ect. Some of the men may have major
> psychological impairments, like manic-depression, border-line syndrome,=
> schizo-affective syndrome ect. so they would need therapy to work out
> those problems. When looking at the statistics of abuse in the USA it's=
> very discouraging, it seems that very few men are able to change for th=
e
> better. If the person is willing to get help there are numerous methods=
> of healing, the difficulty is getting them to that point. There is also=
> the word "fremdbesetz" which means posessed by someone or something,
> this would be going in the direction of sociopathic behavior. I don't
> know, in these cases maybe rebirthing could be of help. I hope this
> wasn't all too general or banal.
> > Coleen
Dear Coleen,
I don=B4t find your comments in the least too general or banal. The part
about the "Schicksalspunkte" was new to me; language is no problem as I
live in Austria.
What I should have mentioned in my first posting: I am looking at charts
of men (not the women in abusive relationships) who seem to be making an
honest effort, through therapy etc., to get a grip on themselves. I am
not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
charts and to talk to them a bit. =
Hugh E. Jeffcoat
Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>> Theresa Ornell wrote:
>> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked
>> > > aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
>> What I should have mentioned in my first posting: I am looking at charts
>> of men (not the women in abusive relationships) who seem to be making an
>> honest effort, through therapy etc., to get a grip on themselves. I am
>> not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
>> processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
>> charts and to talk to them a bit.
>> And this is the interesting thing: I have found such things as Moon
>> conjunct Saturn in third house or Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjuncts opposite
>> Saturn or sixth house emphasis (Saturn heavies are a recurring theme
>> with this group) but almost no 4th/10th or 12th house placings and
>> surprisingly few stressful Neptune contacts. I found lots of
>> inconjuncts, quite a number of yods whith Uranus and/or Pluto as apex
>> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
>Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
>sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
>its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
>people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
>toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
>worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
>origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
>behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
>countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
>Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
>outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
>are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
>which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
>your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
>accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
>Domestic abuse is a very serious problem, and it concerns me a great
>deal that so many women will stay in an abusive relationship mostly out
>of low self-esteem (which many an abuser knows how to manipulate). The
>answer is not in the stars, but in learning to be a judge of character,
>and believing in yourself enough to turn your back on a bad situation.
>Too many women crave that "alpha male" in their life that they fail to
>adequately consider the future consequences of life with an alluring
>"bad-boy." Unlearning bad habits and helping oneself out of a bad
>situation often requires counselling with a therapist, but the stars
>aren't going to predict the problems for you; in this case, it can be
>very dangerous to think that they will.
>Listen to what your head and heart tell you about a guy, and have the
>confidence to say "get lost, or I'll call the cops" when required (and
>if it has an undesirable effect, CALL THE COPS).
>Jim
Good advice, JIM. But you are too quick to dismiss astrology's
effectiveness in this situation. You should do the research before
you condemn.
The headings are mixed, so can't tell who is doing the research, but
whoever it is I am moved to say you SHOULD compare the correctly timed
and cast horoscopes of both the males and the females in your research
if your hope is for astrological insight and remedy. Focussing only
on the males is a mistake, and is only half the picture. Astrology
can point out dangerous extremes of relational pitfalls, including the
possibilities of abuse from both partners. But it must be an
astrology which is based in the stars, and upon as exact birthtimes as
possible.
Any attempt to draw effective information from simple and surface
comparison of birth dates, or from planetary placements in "houses"
would be useless. Mutual planet-to-planet, and planet-to-angle
comparisons are where it is at !
One must compare the planetary placements among the stars at birth of
one chart to those of the other partner, and do the same for their
progressed charts at every stage of the relationship, especially in
the areas of time sourounding the incidences of abuse. Indications
can be different for each couple, for what constitutes abuse for one
couple does not necessarily do the same for another couple. However,
the astrologer can rest assured that the astrological indications
which accompany abuse in a given relationship will repeat themselves
eventually, and can be used to predict not only the timing of such
abusive incidences in future, but also their relative severity.
SIDEREAL (!) jeff
Jim Rogers
pete stapleton
Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>> Theresa Ornell wrote:
>> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked
>> > > aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
Jim posts:
>> inconjuncts, quite a number of yods whith Uranus and/or Pluto as apex
>> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
>Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
>sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
>its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
>people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
>toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
>worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
>origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
>behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
>countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
>Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
>outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
>are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
>which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
>your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
>accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
>if it has an undesirable effect, CALL THE COPS).
>Jim
Pete Stapleton comments: Jim, have you ever cast the interpesonal
charts of those involved in domestic violence? From you comments
I doubt it.
Note that all domestic violence doesn't have to do with men hitting women.
Quite the opposite in fact - the women are just as dangerous to the man. There
is ample evidence to show the men are beaten as often by the female
as is the reverse.
So, why don't you do the work before you assume. Do a some chart -
which is the way one learns about true astrology. In the present
case - note how often there is an Mars/Mercury exchange between
the batteror and the batteree.
Pete
Theresa Ornell
Pete, would you explain the Mars/Mercury connection. Show me the
shelters protecting men from the abuse of their female counterparts,
then you might have a case. Point out the female serial
killers/rapists/pornography perpetraters ect. Of course, there are
women who are abusive, however, you go too far by saying women abuse men
as often as men abuse women. Common sense and open eyes is needed here.
The Mars/Mercury connection is dangerous in that you assume a man who is
a potential batterer only becomes one with a certain type of
women/constellation. It's like saying a pedophile only becomes a
pedophile if a certain kid, acts in a way to provoke them. That is
dangerous, and it's this type of reasoning that lets abusers go free in
society.
Coleen
Christine Lydon
>Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>>> In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked
>>> aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
>>> I am looking at charts of men (not the women in abusive relationships)..<snip>. I am
>>> not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
>>> processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
>>> charts and to talk to them a bit.
>>> And this is the interesting thing: I have found such things as Moon....
>>>..<snip lots of astrological confugurations> .......... Also Saturn trines.
>>Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
>>sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
>>its forms. ...... <snip>...... If you pursue the course you're
>>outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
>>are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
>>which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
>>your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
>>accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
>>... <snip> ... the starsaren't going to predict the problems for you;
>>in this case, it can be very dangerous to think that they will.
>>Jim
I agree this is a dubious use of astrological birthcharts, because it
seems to be misunderstanding what the chart can and can't tell you
about a person.
I've done the chart for a convicted rapist who attacked two girls age
about 10 and 8 in broad daylight in a public park. He is actually a
penfriend of mine in prison: writing letters is hobby I have. So I
know him quite well, we've written at length.
The point is, there is nothing at all in his chart which spells out
"this man is, or will be, or even has the potential to be, a child
rapist." You just can't read such information from a chart. When I
did the chart, I immediately looked for Pluto and Mars, looked at the
Eighth house, looking for indicators of of sex and violence and
power. I couldn't see anything which spelled rapist.
But then I re-read his letters, and tried to understand what he did
from his perspective. In his case (and this cannot be a
generalisation about rapists), I think it was to do with Neptune. He
saw the girls as being like little angels, and told them they were
beautiful. It was all bound up in fantasy and escapism. Absolutely
horrific of course, but not much actual violence or sadism.
So knowing all about the events and the personality of this man, I can
RETROSPECTIVELY use astrology to help him understand himself and why
he did what he did. But it couldn't have been acurrately predicted.
If I were a skilled enough astrologer, I could now use transits or
progressions to warn him of periods when he is prone to retreat into
fantasy and seek escape from relationships. I could have warned him
of such internal states of mind before the event (if I'd known him
then of course), but I couldn't have forecast that the escapism (for
want of a better word) would be acted out as rape.
From Christine
>Good advice, JIM. But you are too quick to dismiss astrology's
>effectiveness in this situation.
>The headings are mixed, so can't tell who is doing the research, but
>whoever it is I am moved to say you SHOULD compare the correctly timed
>and cast horoscopes of both the males and the females in your research
>if your hope is for astrological insight and remedy. Focussing only
>on the males is a mistake, and is only half the picture. Astrology
>can point out dangerous extremes of relational pitfalls, including the
>possibilities of abuse from both partners. But it must be an
>astrology which is based in the stars, and upon as exact birthtimes as
>possible.
>Any attempt to draw effective information from simple and surface
>comparison of birth dates, or from planetary placements in "houses"
>would be useless. Mutual planet-to-planet, and planet-to-angle
>comparisons are where it is at !
I Totally agree. To explore relationships you need full synastry,
planet to planet and planet to angles, between charts.
> One must compare ...<snip>...
>progressed charts at every stage of the relationship, especially in
>the areas of time sourounding the incidences of abuse. Indications
>can be different for each couple, for what constitutes abuse for one
>couple does not necessarily do the same for another couple. However,
>the astrologer can rest assured that the astrological indications
>which accompany abuse in a given relationship will repeat themselves
>eventually, and can be used to predict not only the timing of such
>abusive incidences in future, but also their relative severity.
>SIDEREAL (!) jeff
To repeat, when you already know the person or the relationship, you
can read a lot of helpful and useful information from charts,
especially regarding timing of periods, but it is very tricky to try
and predict specific things like domestic violence just from looking
at a chart in a vacuum.
The skeptics will take this as an admission that there is no objective
validity to astrology. I don't know and don't worry about it. I
know it works subjectively when I talk to someone about themselves and
their problems, or even if I just observe them and their behaviour
without discussing astrology at all.
From Christine
Theresa Ornell
you talked about?
Thankyou,
Coleen
Meta
On Mon, 05 May 1997 04:47:54 GMT, pet...@c-zone.net (pete stapleton)
wrote:
Use your heads, people. I am not amused by your lack of insight or
good suggestions in such matters. First, if someone is beating
someone, someone should get some conventional help to see that no one
gets beaten again. THEN, if you decide to seek the advice of an
astrologer, the astrologer can tell you if there is an INDICATION, and
the astrologer can tell you WHEN this situation is LIKELY to flair up
again.
If you are just looking at some one for the first time, and wish to
know if they have a MARKED TENDANCY toward any violent behavior, under
normal, everyday conditions...in other words, are you gonna get beat
for being 15 minutes late for dinner? type of thing, then, if the
answer is YES, there is a MARKDED Tendancy toward violence, either get
the hell out of there, or give it a fair chance test. Be late, but
bring a friend with you...if you see that hellish look in the other
person's face....get the hell out and don't come back...even if you
wouldn't have gotten beaten, this person is not ready to love or
understand anyone.
Thank you,
Meta
>Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>>> Theresa Ornell wrote:
>>> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>
>>> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked
>>> > > aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
>
>Jim posts:
>>> inconjuncts, quite a number of yods whith Uranus and/or Pluto as apex
>>> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
>
>>Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
>>sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
>>its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
>>people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
>>toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
>>worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
>>origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
>>behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
>>countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
>>Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
>>outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
>>are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
>>which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
>>your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
>>accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
Jim Rogers
(sci.skeptic added; follow the thread back two posts for the background)
Hugh E. Jeffcoat wrote:
> Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
...
> >Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
> >sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
> >its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
> >people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
> >toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
> >worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
> >origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
> >behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
> >countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
> >Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
> >outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
> >are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
> >which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
> >your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
> >accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
>
> >Domestic abuse is a very serious problem, and it concerns me a great
> >deal that so many women will stay in an abusive relationship mostly out
> >of low self-esteem (which many an abuser knows how to manipulate). The
> >answer is not in the stars, but in learning to be a judge of character,
> >and believing in yourself enough to turn your back on a bad situation.
> >Too many women crave that "alpha male" in their life that they fail to
> >adequately consider the future consequences of life with an alluring
> >"bad-boy." Unlearning bad habits and helping oneself out of a bad
> >situation often requires counselling with a therapist, but the stars
> >aren't going to predict the problems for you; in this case, it can be
> >very dangerous to think that they will.
>
> >Listen to what your head and heart tell you about a guy, and have the
> >confidence to say "get lost, or I'll call the cops" when required (and
> >if it has an undesirable effect, CALL THE COPS).
> Good advice, JIM. But you are too quick to dismiss astrology's
> effectiveness in this situation. You should do the research before
> you condemn.
Are you aware that what's being discussed amounts to making
life-and-death decisions based on natal chart comparisons? That implies
to you no sense of responsibility to find out whether it passes
_objective_ measures of accuracy, first? Do you often recommend that
people gamble their lives on the throw of the dice?
> The headings are mixed, so can't tell who is doing the research, but
Menega Sabidussi, whose were the words I quoted (sorry that seemed
confusing).
> whoever it is I am moved to say you SHOULD compare the correctly timed
> and cast horoscopes of both the males and the females in your research
> if your hope is for astrological insight and remedy. Focussing only
> on the males is a mistake, and is only half the picture. Astrology
True, but males do account for the vast majority of the problem abusers;
trying to claim otherwise is PC hooey. Men are more likely to be the
abusers because we are, on average, larger and stronger and, in our
evolutionary past, the sex responsible for most of the aggressive
competition. Averages don't rule all, of course; but (violently) "abused
women" is the prevalent case, and the men who do the abusing can be
incredible monsters.
> can point out dangerous extremes of relational pitfalls, including the
> possibilities of abuse from both partners. But it must be an
> astrology which is based in the stars, and upon as exact birthtimes as
> possible.
And what if, after all of that, it still amounts to a random input?
Would you recommend this approach as valid to avoid an abusive
relationship? Post-hoc, ergo procter-hoc rationalization like this
"research" tells you nothing about the people whose charts *haven't*
been included in the survey.
> Any attempt to draw effective information from simple and surface
> comparison of birth dates, or from planetary placements in "houses"
> would be useless. Mutual planet-to-planet, and planet-to-angle
> comparisons are where it is at !
And you can say this with confidence because...why?
> One must compare the planetary placements among the stars at birth of
> one chart to those of the other partner, and do the same for their
> progressed charts at every stage of the relationship, especially in
> the areas of time sourounding the incidences of abuse. Indications
> can be different for each couple, for what constitutes abuse for one
> couple does not necessarily do the same for another couple. However,
> the astrologer can rest assured that the astrological indications
> which accompany abuse in a given relationship will repeat themselves
> eventually, and can be used to predict not only the timing of such
> abusive incidences in future, but also their relative severity.
Once an abusive mate, always untrustworthy; you can't expect an abuser
to reform without a determined effort through professionals. So
predicting "more abuse" doesn't require astrology.
Jim
Jim Rogers
Theresa Ornell wrote:
> pete stapleton blithered his usual nonsense:
> > >> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> > >> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements in a man愀 chart for marked
> > >> > > aggression against family members (not just against their wives but the children
> > >> > > as well) ...
> > >> inconjuncts, quite a number of yods whith Uranus and/or Pluto as apex
> > >> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
> > >sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
> > >its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
> > >people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
> > >toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
> > >worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
> > >origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
> > >behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
> > >countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
> > >Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
> > >outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
> > >are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
> > >which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
> > >your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
> > >accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
> > charts of those involved in domestic violence? From you comments
> > I doubt it.
[women abusing women "as often" snipped; my concern is the use of
astrology]
...
> > So, why don't you do the work before you assume. Do a some chart -
> > which is the way one learns about true astrology. In the present
> > case - note how often there is an Mars/Mercury exchange between
> > the batteror and the batteree.
> Pete, would you explain the Mars/Mercury connection. ...
...
> The Mars/Mercury connection is dangerous in that you assume a man who is
> a potential batterer only becomes one with a certain type of
> women/constellation. It's like saying a pedophile only becomes a
> pedophile if a certain kid, acts in a way to provoke them. That is
> dangerous, and it's this type of reasoning that lets abusers go free in
> society.
Which raises a corollary question: this "research" also leads to the
implication that it might be appropriate to use astrology to discern
between the "fluke" one-time abuser who has enough conscience and
presence of mind to never repeat, and someone with a real problem. If
you worked as a rehab counsellor, would you consider it apporpriate to
consult horoscopes to help decide? The potential injustice done by that
approach is staggering; no law (today) would support such a counsellor,
but they might not know he/she is doing it.
Jim
Theresa Ornell
DearMarsha wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > Pete, would you explain the Mars/Mercury connection. Show me the
> > > > shelters protecting men from the abuse of their female counterparts,
> > > > then you might have a case. Point out the female serial
> > > > killers/rapists/pornography perpetraters ect. Of course, there are
> > > > women who are abusive, however, you go too far by saying women abuse men
> > > > as often as men abuse women. Common sense and open eyes is needed here.
> > > > a potential batterer only becomes one with a certain type of
> > > > women/constellation. It's like saying a pedophile only becomes a
> > > > pedophile if a certain kid, acts in a way to provoke them. That is
> > > > dangerous, and it's this type of reasoning that lets abusers go free in
> > > > society.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Coleen,
> > >
> > > I don't think that serial killing & domestic violence should be
> > > considered the same. It does seem like common sense to me that
> > > situations of domestic violence could involve a Mars/Mercury aspect
> > > between the two charts. I would think that there would be more than
> > > just that, but it would seem that the person with the Mars in this
> > > situation could react with violence to some type of communication from
> > > the Mercury person. I don't mean that it would be the Mercury person's
> > > fault--but the Mars person may try to claim that & "bully" the Mercury
> > > person into believing it.
> > >
> > > Thinking about serial killers--they usually choose victims that have
> > > something in common with each other & it seems to me that there could
> > > very likely be aspects of some sort between the killer's chart & each
> > > victim's. I would think there would be some research done on this
> > > somewhere. Does anyone know of any?
> > >
> > > As far as shelters for battered men--as everyone knows, men can
> > > physically defend themselves more easily from women who usually are not
> > > as physically strong. And a lot of men wouldn't even admit the fact to
> > > themselves that they were battered much less admit it to someone else by
> > > trying to set up a shelter. And in gay male relationships there is a
> > > lot of violence & nowhere for them to go--many don't even have families
> > > to get support from.
> > >
> > > Marsha
> >
> > Dear Marsha, linking other types of violence directed at females in our
> > society was just to show how prevalent abuse of women by men is.
>
> Sorry if I changed the subject, but I was keeping in mind the "title" of
> the original post: ..."Domestic Violence" which can go either way,
> against men or women.
>
> > Mars/Mercury in challenging aspects could produce heated arguments,
> > differences of opinion and so on. Mars/Mercury is associated in medical
> > Astrology with fever, so if we use this analogy ,the energy levels
> > between the two could be very intense, or "hot" if you will. This of
> > course doesn't have to manifest as abuse but an intensity in exchanging
> > ideas, beliefs, ect.
>
> It could also manifest as physical violence as I mentioned earlier.
>
> > You mention gay male relationships, I don't see
> > where that fits in.
>
> It fits in with "Domestic Violence".
>
> >You say serial killers often choose women
>
> No, what I actually said was "victims". This is my quote: "Thinking
> about serial killers--they usually choose victims that have something in
> common with each other & it seems to me that there could very likely be
> aspects of some sort between the killer's chart & each victim's. I
> would think there would be some research done on this somewhere. Does
> anyone know of any?" That's what I said.
>
> > something in common with each other/links between the charts, usually
> > the only thing they have in common is that they are female, and at a
> > particular moment alone, making them easy prey.
>
> I disagree. Do you have facts to back this up? Or is this your opinion?
>
> > There may be a
> > particular type of woman that attracts an abuser, someone that is shy,
> > insecure, less likely to defend themselves,
>
> A couple of well-know examples are nurses, prostitutes, etc.
> I don't think all nurses & prostitutes are shy, insecure, etc. It could
> just be a physical characteristic, (hair color, etc.) but I thought it
> would be interesting to find out if anyone had done any research on that
> in astrology.
>
> >however some abusers (
> > particularly domestic violence) prefer someone who is independent,
> > strong, and ambitious, probally because it's more challenging to slowly
> > rob them of their strength.
>
> Do you have examples of these charts? It would be interesting to see
> them.
>
> >Marsha, show me all of the closet abused
> > men, show me their changed identities in order to survive,
>
> These were not my words on that subject. This is what I wrote: "And in
> gay male relationships there is a lot of violence & nowhere for them to
> go--many don't even have families to get support from."
>
> >I don't buy
> > it, it's a tactic that doesn't take a stand to proven facts/statisics.
>
> No, it's not a tactic, it's a fact. a friend of mine who was a gay male
> was in the same type of situation a lot of women are in. He was
> physically abused, knew of others who were also physically abused. His
> family didn't accept him, so he couldn't get out of the relationship
> that way, he just had nowhere to go.
>
> > That men haven't come foward in order to protect their egos is a weak
> > argument.
>
> That's not what I said. I said: "And a lot of men wouldn't even admit
> the fact to themselves that they were battered much less admit it to
> someone else by..."
>
> Do you also know the reason that stops women from coming forward? I
> would imagine it may be for similar reasons as men, whatever those
> reasons may be--and I didn't say "egos", you did.
>
> >There are of course people who use a chart/like reincarnation
> > believers use karma. One particular reincarnation adherent said,
> > children who are sexually molested ect. provoked the act, probally
> > because in their past life they did whatever. Or it had to > happen...You
>
> Well, Theresa or Coleen (??) it wasn't me!!
>
> > can try to justify anything,
>
> I'm not trying to justify anything.
>
> or change the facts around so that they fit
> > the puzzle.
>
> I don't believe I changed the facts, I think maybe you didn't like my
> broadening of the subject.
>
> > Here is where I draw the line.
> >
> > Coleen
>
> Coleen, I guess one thing I was trying to get across was that the abuser
> is not always a man & the abused is not always a woman. And I agree
> that in the majority of known cases, that is true. But also, I was poin
> ting out that there are other situations that are not as well-known, and
> just as important even though there may not be as many of them, and that
> maybe this should be looked at as people & not man or woman. I thought
> the idea of Mars/Mercury was interesting or any other aspects people
> might know of.
>
> Please don't paraphrase or misquote me though. If you want this to be a
> discussion of "women abused by men" rather than "domestic violence"
> thats fine, I understand.
>
> Marsha
Dear Marsha, sorry if I paraphrased or misquoted you. There are a number
of reasons people wouldn't openely admit to being abused. Alot depends
on what socio-economic class one belongs to. When you mentioned men
hiding the fact that their partners abuse them, the first thing that
came to my mind was the male ego, as well as other reasons which I
didn't mention. Isolating particular aspects, and saying they they
cause a certain behavior isn't helpful. For example, Mars/Pluto is often
associated with violence. However, depending on what house/sign they
fall in changes everything. Mars/Pluto in the first "quadrant" could
indicate being the "black sheep in the Family," or tumor growths ect.
So, when using synastry in particular, it would be important to consider
where the other persons Mars or Mercury is located in the others chart.
The question would be what houses do you feel may constitute physical
outbursts, ect. If someones Mars falls in the others second house
conjuncting their Mercury then this could manifest itself as the Mars
person inspiring the Mercury person to organise their financial
situation, perhaps even occasionally getting on their nerves to take
control of the matter. Mars/Mercury in the eigth could indicate a couple
that gets turned on by verbal sexual stuff, and on and on. Unraveling a
chart is as you are probally aware of, incredibly complex. If you have
psychic abilities you may be able to skip over the hard work, however,
one still has to constantly question the source. No I don't have facts
to back up anything I said. I did work in a shelter, and I have to
assure J.Reed that I never would have employed Astrological techniques
to persuade anyone to choose their partner on the basis of a chart. I
don't mind if "domestic violence" branches off in other directions.
Coleen
Marsha
Theresa Ornell
You admit a couple of sentences down that you were on the lookout for
aspects that you consider signatures of rape/power/violence.
> I've done the chart for a convicted rapist who attacked two girls age
> about 10 and 8 in broad daylight in a public park. He is actually a
> penfriend of mine in prison: writing letters is hobby I have. So I
> know him quite well, we've written at length.
>
Isn't it naive to think we know someone by just exchanging letters? The
net attracts a large amount of schizoid personalities because they can
show their intellectual adroitness, and at the same time conceal many
deficiencies. This goes for pen-pals as well.
> The point is, there is nothing at all in his chart which spells out
> "this man is, or will be, or even has the potential to be, a child
> rapist." You just can't read such information from a chart. When I
> did the chart, I immediately looked for Pluto and Mars, looked at the
> Eighth house, looking for indicators of of sex and violence and
> power. I couldn't see anything which spelled rapist.
>
The fact that you automatically looked for Pluto and Mars, or the eighth
house doesn't say much about you Astrological understanding. Violence
wheres many guises, not just a couple. Show us his chart.
> But then I re-read his letters, and tried to understand what he did
> from his perspective. In his case (and this cannot be a
> generalisation about rapists), I think it was to do with Neptune. He
> saw the girls as being like little angels, and told them they were
> beautiful. It was all bound up in fantasy and escapism. Absolutely
> horrific of course, but not much actual violence or sadism.
>
if you consider the rape of two children as "not much actual violence
or sadism," then I think that is very sad. That the Vulnerability and
innocence of children attrack child rapists is nothing new.
> So knowing all about the events and the personality of this man, I can
> RETROSPECTIVELY use astrology to help him understand himself and why
> he did what he did. But it couldn't have been acurrately predicted.
>
I'm curious as to why you think he did it?
> If I were a skilled enough astrologer, I could now use transits or
> progressions to warn him of periods when he is prone to retreat into
> fantasy and seek escape from relationships. I could have warned him
> of such internal states of mind before the event (if I'd known him
> then of course), but I couldn't have forecast that the escapism (for
> want of a better word) would be acted out as rape.
> From Christine
>
Do you really think that warning him of confusing mental states would
be a deterrent? Actually, admitting one has a problem and even
understanding what may have caused it doesn't necessarily change
behavior. If he was freed from jail he would always be tempted to repeat
his act. You can't remove children from the world can you?
> >Good advice, JIM. But you are too quick to dismiss astrology's
> >effectiveness in this situation.
> >The headings are mixed, so can't tell who is doing the research, but
> >whoever it is I am moved to say you SHOULD compare the correctly timed
> >and cast horoscopes of both the males and the females in your research
The question was about males who are involved with domestic violence and
currently in therapy.
>if your hope is for astrological insight and remedy. Focussing only
> >on the males is a mistake, and is only half the picture. Astrology
> >can point out dangerous extremes of relational pitfalls, including the
> >possibilities of abuse from both partners. But it must be an
> >astrology which is based in the stars, and upon as exact birthtimes as
> >possible.
Astrology is not just based in the stars, one must look at all factors
when working with people.
> >Any attempt to draw effective information from simple and surface
> >comparison of birth dates, or from planetary placements in "houses"
> >would be useless. Mutual planet-to-planet, and planet-to-angle
> >comparisons are where it is at !
>
> I Totally agree. To explore relationships you need full synastry,
> planet to planet and planet to angles, between charts.
>
> > One must compare ...<snip>...
> >progressed charts at every stage of the relationship, especially in
> >the areas of time sourounding the incidences of abuse. Indications
> >can be different for each couple, for what constitutes abuse for one
> >couple does not necessarily do the same for another couple. However,
> >the astrologer can rest assured that the astrological indications
> >which accompany abuse in a given relationship will repeat themselves
> >eventually, and can be used to predict not only the timing of such
> >abusive incidences in future, but also their relative severity.
> >SIDEREAL (!) jeff
>
> To repeat, when you already know the person or the relationship, you
> can read a lot of helpful and useful information from charts,
> especially regarding timing of periods, but it is very tricky to try
> and predict specific things like domestic violence just from looking
> at a chart in a vacuum.
>
Some people have the talent to accurately predict without face to face
consultations others need a different approach.
Roger L. Satterlee
If one assumes all behaviors are attempts at self expression, no bizarre behavior
is more than really bad 'art'; which is exactly how it is treated by the FBI, now. (duh)
Compare the exact desciption of the deeds, their setting, and any statements of
intentions, to the natal chart of the offender in the same manner as you would compare a
fiction writer's expression of plot and characters, his *self-similar images*. All people
are 'authoring' their lives, and artfully employing the objects (including people) of
their enviorment as the most readily available media.
Where violence is concerned there is only one consistent motivation...that is, to
exist...to exhibit identity; too bad it is not always accomplished by socially acceptable
means: I can't believe anyone would overlook something this elementary...:(
Rog
Roger L. Satterlee
Theresa Ornell wrote:
> interpretation. It just isn't that elementary.
>
> Coleen And which placement is more reminiscent of those women who dwell
on Uranus and the castration fantasies...There are no bad guys, just bad
deeds, and these are as particular as they need to signify the offender.
Now...there is no signature for violence, but rather signatures of
individuals--in indelible ink, pen pals or not.
Rog
--
rog...@ix.netcom.com
11:53pm EDT 26Jul50 Elmira, NY 076W48 42N06
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406
Marsha
pete stapleton wrote:
>
> Marsha <sha...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Coleen,
>
> It does seem like common sense to me that
> >situations of domestic violence could involve a Mars/Mercury aspect
> >between the two charts. I would think that there would be more than
> >just that, but it would seem that the person with the Mars in this
> >situation could react with violence to some type of communication from
> >the Mercury person. I don't mean that it would be the Mercury person's
> >fault--but the Mars person may try to claim that & "bully" the Mercury
> >person into believing it.
>
> within the interperson, the Mercury person causes the Mars person to
> react in a martian manner. Woe to the Mercury person. Sex is not a
> consideration here - nor is phsycial poweress. The Martian will hit the
> mercury. The police will arrest the man.
>
> >As far as shelters for battered men--as everyone knows, men can
> >physically defend themselves more easily from women who usually are not
> >as physically strong. And a lot of men wouldn't even admit the fact to
> >themselves that they were battered much less admit it to someone else by
> >trying to set up a shelter. And in gay male relationships there is a
> >lot of violence & nowhere for them to go--many don't even have families
> >to get support from. Marsha
>
> call them jails.
>
> Pete
Pete, are you referring to situations where they try to defend
themselves that result in "hitting back"?
Marsha
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> And which placement is more reminiscent of those women who dwell
> on Uranus and the castration fantasies...There are no bad guys, just bad
> deeds,
There is no good or bad either, there is simply negative and positive
energy-the "deeds" are either in integrity or out of integrity.
All of these acts discussed are from the belief in powerlessness.
I will reinform;
Self-Empowered- Is the recognition that you lack nothing and create your
reality 100% by what you believe and define yourself to be. It is
created from all levels of psychic material, i.e., unconscious,
conscious, collective unconscious, superconscious. The physical is the
EFFECT of the non-physical spiritual.
You have all the tools and all the abilities that you require at any
given moment to be anything you are willing and bold enough to believe
you can define yourself to be. You are always in control 100% even when
you use 90% to create the illusion that you only have the other 10%. No
one can make you feel inferior without your consent. The recognition
that the universe has no built-in meaning. The taking of responsibility
(not guilt) for ones reality BECAUSE you know it is you and your
creation.
Integrity- Functioning as an integrated whole self, without placing
power outside of the self, since nothing is outside of the self. The
recognition that you are as powerful as you need to be to create
whatever you desire to create in your reality without having to hurt
yourself or anyone else in order to create it. You are always a part of
the problem or of the solution, if you are not part of the solution it
is easy to figure out where you are on the scale (unless of course you
are involved as an analytically discerning or accurate empathic
observer-pls see the discernment vs judgment post). You are not
responsible for anyone only responsible to them by being as much as you
can be in integrity. All is vibration, and the vibration you are will BE
the reality you experience EVERYWHERE-ALL THE TIME.
Negative beliefs do not have any more power than positive. So they are
not necessarily "unfortunate", for every being creates their reality
utterly as the product of what they believe or have been taught to
believe is true. There is no one truth, except that THE truth is
composed of all truths within that system. Individuals can act in
positive ways or in negative ways.
Positive is simply integrative, unifying, expansive,
inclusive-INTEGRAL.
Negative is separative, segragative, limited, conflicted functions in
PARTS.
But the positive individual, by the light by which they shine, will
simply show the negative individual(s) that they are;
A) Untouchable by anything that is not of a similar vibration. And that;
B) They offer back to the negative individual(s) an offering of a
choice, a choice to also be positive. If the other(s) do not choose to
be positive then they can simply go their own way, for that which is
negative cannot exist within the blinding light of that which is
positive, it is simple mechanics-PHYSICS. That is all. Even if the
negativity is intentional the positive person will still extract a
positive effect.
Action is the manifested conviction of belief-because life happens
through you not to you.
Or as Walt Whitman put it.
"What you are speaks so loudly, that I can't hear what you are saying."
No one can interpret a life or vibrational level at which they
themselves are not capable of functioning, because all is vibration.
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
Bashar and The Association
Elanore Roosevelt
> and these are as particular as they need to signify the offender.
> Now...there is no signature for violence, but rather signatures of
> individuals--in indelible ink, pen pals or not.
There are only signatures of needs-how those needs are fulfilled-whether
in integrity or not is the issue-the only issue.
--
"Your only obligation in any lifetime is to be true to yourself. Being
true to anyone else or anything else is not only impossible, but the
mark of a fake messiah." Richard Bach "Illusions"
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 1997 Altair Publications
http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Edmond Wollmann
pete stapleton wrote:
> First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> violence and reach the criminal justice system.
Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
so we can review them.
--
"A wise and good man can suffer no disgrace" Fabius Maximus
Shad McConnell
In article <5kirg9$r...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com says...
> Please pardon my (skeptical) butting in, but with all due respect, this
> sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all of
> its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categorize
> people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior
> toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is far
> worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethnic
> origins, because at least culture has a noticeable influence on people's
> behavior (witness, for instance, how women are treated in Arab
> countries, yet we still should presume nothing about a naturalized
> Arab's mindset in our own country). If you pursue the course you're
> outlining here, you're going to blind yourself to what a guy's actions
> are telling you, and you'll have a useless measure of his motivations,
> which is a dangerous approach to avoiding the bad eggs; women following
> your lead will pass up princes because of "defective" natal charts but
> accept a neanderthal, because of a "favorable" natal chart.
>
> Domestic abuse is a very serious problem, and it concerns me a great
> deal that so many women will stay in an abusive relationship mostly out
> of low self-esteem (which many an abuser knows how to manipulate). The
> answer is not in the stars, but in learning to be a judge of character,
> and believing in yourself enough to turn your back on a bad situation.
> Too many women crave that "alpha male" in their life that they fail to
> adequately consider the future consequences of life with an alluring
> "bad-boy." Unlearning bad habits and helping oneself out of a bad
> situation often requires counselling with a therapist, but the stars
> aren't going to predict the problems for you; in this case, it can be
> very dangerous to think that they will.
<last few comments snipped>
I have posted very little to this group, so pardon my bursting in...
I'm an astrologer and I agree with what is being said here... The habit
that astrologers have of "typing" others and themselves by various
astrological placements disturbs me, mostly because it often seems to be
reflexive and without thought - and frequently "limiting" or
"condemning." (Though most astrologers would defend it as a form of
shorthand, and I don't see Theresa Ornell doing this in her original
post.) I believe whole heartedly that no one "is" their chart, any more
than anyone "being" the result of their family of origin and nothing
more. Often people begin to feel and think that they are nothing more
than the sum total of their past, or that others are nothing more than
this... but this is often more a consequence of limited and narrow focus.
Careful examination of language, metaphor and assumptions used in
astrological practice is very fruitful. If we define the chart as a
"prison" or a "sentence" our interpretation will reflect it. Or if we
believe that the chart can somehow tell us why someone made certain
choices... when the bottom line is that freedom of choice makes anyone
able to abuse a wife or girlfriend.
There is a difference between the SYSTEM that is used to judge, package
and condemn people and the general human tendency to do so... I would
point out that human beings in general use all sorts of languages and
systems of categorizations (race, political stance, profession, status in
society, geographical region, psychological "issue," to name a few) to
judge, label, and package each other. Examples include labeling all
scientists as "soulless pragmatists" and their supporters as "mindless
zombies." Or another example: all astrologers as "con men" and their
supporters as "duped escapists." Although there may be some truth in both
statements some of the time, neither is true all of the time. (Although
it seems very easy, in the midst of passion and opinion, to start
thinking that way...)
-shad
Simple editing will change my domain into "spiritone.com," allowing you
to email me.
Shad McConnell
Roger L. Satterlee
Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>
> Let me start this over and post my original thoughts again as I would be
> really interested in astrological feedback anyone is willing to offer:
> I am looking at charts of men (not the women in abusive relationships)
> who seem to be making an
> not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
> processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
> conclusions I draw on the basis of the charts I see (or have thoughts
> on) are not communicated to the therapists involved and therefore has
> absolutely no influence on the therapeutic process.
> To me the following is interesting: I have found such things as Moon
> conjunct Saturn in third house or Mars/Uranus/Pluto conjuncts opposite
> Saturn or sixth house emphasis (Saturn heavies are a recurring theme
> with this group) but almost no 4th/10th or 12th house placings and
> surprisingly few stressful Neptune contacts. I found lots of
> and lots of personal planets sextiling Pluto. Also Saturn trines.
Menega,
Get the individual story and the natal chart has
meaning...nothing else is worth trying to generalize; contrary to popular
belief each person is unique..:)
Menega Sabidussi
To Jim:
I took extra pains to make it clear that I am in no way involved in
these peoples healing processes. That, of course, also means that any
conclusions I draw on the basis of the charts I see (or have thoughts
they aren=B4t really interested anyway. =
So, please calm down.
If you want to accuse me of being curious and of trying to figure out if
there even is a pattern to be found, so be it.
Menega
Jim Rogers wrote:
> =
> Theresa Ornell wrote:
> > pete stapleton blithered his usual nonsense:
> > > Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
> > > >Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> > > >> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> =
> > > >> > > In your experience, what are some of the defining elements i=
n a man=B4s chart for marked
> > > >> > > aggression against family members (not just against their wi=
ves but the children
> > > >> > > as well) ...
=2E..with all due respect, this
> > > >sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why I am so opposed to astrology in all=
of
> > > >its forms. It is nothing more than a structured method to categori=
ze
> > > >people on an arbitrary basis and to form your opinion and behavior=
> > > >toward that person from that arbitrary categorization -- this is f=
ar
> > > >worse than prejudging someone based on his/her skin color or ethni=
c
> > > >origins...
=
> > > Pete Stapleton comments: Jim, have you ever cast the interpesonal
> > > charts of those involved in domestic violence? From you comments
> > > I doubt it.
> =
> [women abusing women "as often" snipped; my concern is the use of
> astrology]
> ...
> > > So, why don't you do the work before you assume. Do a some chart -=
> > > which is the way one learns about true astrology. In the present
> > > case - note how often there is an Mars/Mercury exchange between
> > > the batteror and the batteree.
> =
> > Pete, would you explain the Mars/Mercury connection. ...
> ...
> > The Mars/Mercury connection is dangerous in that you assume a man who=
is
> > a potential batterer only becomes one with a certain type of
> > women/constellation. It's like saying a pedophile only becomes a
> > pedophile if a certain kid, acts in a way to provoke them. That is
> > dangerous, and it's this type of reasoning that lets abusers go free =
in
> > society.
> =
> Which raises a corollary question: this "research" also leads to the
> implication that it might be appropriate to use astrology to discern
> between the "fluke" one-time abuser who has enough conscience and
> presence of mind to never repeat, and someone with a real problem. If
> you worked as a rehab counsellor, would you consider it apporpriate to
> consult horoscopes to help decide? The potential injustice done by that=
> approach is staggering; no law (today) would support such a counsellor,=
> but they might not know he/she is doing it.
> =
> Jim
Menega Sabidussi
Let me start this over and post my original thoughts again as I would be
really interested in astrological feedback anyone is willing to offer:
I am looking at charts of men (not the women in abusive relationships)
who seem to be making an
honest effort, through therapy etc., to get a grip on themselves. I am
not the therapist nor in any other way involved in their healing
processes though they have consented to let me have a look at their
conclusions I draw on the basis of the charts I see (or have thoughts
pete stapleton
Theresa Ornell <te...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>pete stapleton wrote:
>>
>> Note that all domestic violence doesn't have to do with men hitting women.
>> Quite the opposite in fact - the women are just as dangerous to the man. There
>> is ample evidence to show the men are beaten as often by the female
>> as is the reverse. >> Pete
>Pete, would you explain the Mars/Mercury connection. Show me the
>shelters protecting men from the abuse of their female counterparts,
>then you might have a case.
First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
violence and reach the criminal justice system. So why don't you do
the charts of a couple of hundred couples and prove my Mercury/Mars
signature of interpersonal battering wrong.
Next, if you want to find the battered men shelters - there are none. We
put the males that are battered by their women in jail for getting hit by
their spouse. Again, simple investigation of the real world would allow
you to know this very simple fact.
So if you want to discuss astrology - then let's discuss the real world.
Pete
>Coleen
Ava Rosenblum
Could someone explain to me please what a conjunction is astronomically?
That is, in the actual sky (I'm assuming the planets aren't colliding)
what are conjunct planets?
Thanks,
ava r.
Menega Sabidussi
To Pete:
If you could go into more detail on your the Mercury/Mars findings that
would be interesting and helpful.
Menega
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> > And which placement is more reminiscent of those women who dwell
> > on Uranus and the castration fantasies...There are no bad guys, just bad
> > deeds,
>
> There is no good or bad either, there is simply negative and positive
> energy-the "deeds" are either in integrity or out of integrity.
> All of these acts discussed are from the belief in powerlessness.
> I will reinform;
> Self-Empowered- Is the recognition that you lack nothing and create your
> reality 100% by what you believe and define yourself to be. It is
> created from all levels of psychic material, i.e., unconscious,
> conscious, collective unconscious, superconscious. The physical is the
> EFFECT of the non-physical spiritual.
> You have all the tools and all the abilities that you require at any
> given moment to be anything you are willing and bold enough to believe
Now, Ed, your sounding like Mark David Chapman again...:)
Though *bad deeds* is a term more common, I'll accept the word *offenses* as
is the norm concerning the penal codes, which seldom if ever mention *negative
energy*. Like it or not, there are social concepts which form the basis for
necessary judgements made in the interest of the society which supports our very
existence.
> --
> "Your only obligation in any lifetime is to be true to yourself. Being
> true to anyone else or anything else is not only impossible, but the
> mark of a fake messiah." Richard Bach "Illusions"
You are no doubt aware that Richard Bach deserted his wife and five or six
children, right? I don't wonder he found some spiritual rationale for being so
self-centered, or self-indulgent.
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <336FB8...@magnet.at>,
Menega Sabidussi <sabi...@magnet.at> wrote:
>
> To Jim:
> I took extra pains to make it clear that I am in no way involved in
> conclusions I draw on the basis of the charts I see (or have thoughts
> they aren=B4t really interested anyway. =
>
> So, please calm down.
> If you want to accuse me of being curious and of trying to figure out if
> there even is a pattern to be found, so be it.
> Menega
>
> Jim Rogers wrote:
> > =
>
> > Theresa Ornell wrote:
> > > pete stapleton blithered his usual nonsense:
Pete Stapleton comments: good thomas sears AFA personal
attack astrology. Do you actually do charts? And if you
do, do you use a zodiac that actually relates to what is
up in the sky - or are you just another tropical housologist
who calls what you do astrology and don't know the difference?
And I'm certain I won't get and answer to either question.
> Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> In your experience, what are some of the defining elements i=
> n a man=B4s chart for marked aggression against family members
(not just against their wives but the children as well) ...
with all due respect, this sort of thing is _EXACTLY_ why
I am so opposed to astrology in all of
Pete Stapleton comments: Jim, you are raising straw men of no
substance. How does one go about answering the questions you
raise when the issues raised do not happen in the real world.
No astrological practitioner who has been dealing with clients
for ten years or more is going to mis use his/her talent. Maybe
in your world there is harm of the kind you suggest - but within
the occult, most of the practitioners of experience do not do
harm no matter the money involved.
I answer to your question about mental health professionals consulting
astrologers - it happens all the time. In fact, it is unusual to
find a psychologist who doesn't have charts of his clients cast
before the first session. Note that the psychic tropical housologists
can tell you quite a lot about your current state of mind - while the
true astrologer can tell you all about the permanent personality.
Check it out. Call some psychologists and offer a free intorductory
chart. See how often you get turned down. Do the work.
Pete
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jim Rogers
Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> I took extra pains to make it clear that I am in no way involved in
> these peoples healing processes. That, of course, also means that any
> conclusions I draw on the basis of the charts I see (or have thoughts
> on) are not communicated to the therapists involved. As a matter of fact
> So, please calm down.
> If you want to accuse me of being curious and of trying to figure out if
> there even is a pattern to be found, so be it.
I saw your careful wording, and respect that you're in a "research"
phase and not attempting to apply this to therapy. My concern is with
the implications of the belief that astrology can tell you a person's
motivations sufficently to discern the potential abusers from the
non-abusers; participants in this thread are *already* pointing out
astrological influences that they expect to correlate with violent
tendencies. What's the point of this "research" if no one is to apply
it? What applications would be safe and protective against arbitrary
discrimination, if it turns out (as I believe) that the astrological
signals you find are not meaningful at all? Are you willing to accept
the possibility that there is no meaningful pattern to find, or are you
determined to root one out (this is a key difference between a
scientific approach and a self-affirming believer's approach)? Do be
aware that the course you've outlined is post-hoc rationalization of a
very small sample size, and isn't a controlled survey.
Jim
Jim Rogers
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
[astrological details]
Still not interested in the real, physical danger this presents, Ed?
"See no evil..."
Jim
Jim Rogers
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> pete stapleton wrote:
> > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
> so we can review them.
*GASP* Ed, what are you saying? Are you *GASP* a SKEPTIC???
> "A wise and good man can suffer no disgrace" Fabius Maximus
"It's noble to be good, and it's nobler to teach others to be good,
and less trouble." -- Mark Twain (at the opening of
The Mark Twain Library)
Jim
Roger L. Satterlee
Christine Lydon wrote:
>Getting back to the original thread, Menega's work with violent men
>can help each one to understand himself better, but it is a big jump
>to then try and extract common indicators from all the charts in the
>study. I suspect that there simply isn't any universal common
>factors to the charts.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....mennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.....:)
Theresa Ornell
Dear Roger, my comments about castration wishes seem to have gotten
divulged by the net, did you get them? Susi doesn't have an identity,
(is an undine) and so in order for her to "exhibit identity" she needs
to find a willing or unwilling mortal to take over. It's easy in that
she usually adorns her victim with charm, enthusiasm, and lots of
attention. The victim gets metaphorically speaking castrated in the
process, he reacts with outrage, he's not quite sure why, but does. O.k.
that's just one theory from many. X walks down the street with lots of
Pluto, he sees Y across the way with lots of Neptune and she looks so
sweet...like a magnet the pull is so strong he has to go over. However,
another story. Rabbi x is loved for his brilliance and uncanny
perceptions, people flock to him. Tom hates him and wants to uncover him
as a fraud so he schemes awhile and comes up with a plan he thinks will
deceive the rabbi. Tom has hidden a small bird in his palms, he then
asks the rabbi to guess if the bird is alive or dead. He plans to
secretly crush the bird if the rabbi says he's alive and let it fly if
the rabbi says it's dead. The rabbi, being wise as always, looks deep in
his eyes and says, the answer lies in your hands my son. One aspect of
the story shows that everyone has a choice, is it fair of tom to say the
bird made me do it? Even if the bird did have evil intentions, does it
justify violence? We all have choices. Many people can't direct their
will because they are ill. My question is are there some who are Really
"fremdbesetz?" posessed by another, that is doing someone else's will?
Coleen
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <5kr6ua$f...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
> > pete stapleton wrote:
>
> > > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> > > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> > > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> > > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>
> > Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
> > so we can review them.
>
> *GASP* Ed, what are you saying? Are you *GASP* a SKEPTIC???
>
Pete Stapleton comments: STUDIES!!!! STUDIES !!!! WE DON'T
NEED NO STUPID STUDIES!!!
Also, would the author of the above inanity about studies
post of one study that has ever beenn published that even
remotely alluded to the existence of astrology? And of
course there will be no answer. Why would any perceptive
person call for a list of published studies which proved
the existence of astrology. A child of six knows there
will be no such study published under any circumstance. This
same child would understand that the proving of the exitence
of astrology removes the "science?" of astronomy from all
present tax trough funding.
STUDIES THAT ARE PUBLISHED???? How silly.
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <337008...@mindspring.com>,
> themselves that result in "hitting back"?
>
> Marsha
Pete Stapleton comments: Marsh, this may be the post I referred
to in my just posted prior post and that I have just again
encountered on Deja news.
No, I don't refer to situations where the male "hits back."
Although that would be one of the elements present in a mars
/ mercury exchange. Kind of a violence begest violence
trigger.
My point here is much broader. The previous article spoke of
mandated arrests - where the feds have decided to stop
domestic violence calls by giving money to the police for
making arrests every time they respond to a domestic
violence call. The result has been a tremendous increse in
arrests in this area - and it has also become evident that
the male is always the one arrested. This skews the data to
the point where it is meaningless as far as getting to the
truth about the source of domestic violence. Hence,
charts based upon this data which almost automatically marks
the male as the agressor are meaningless.
The only way you can use such data is to go beyond the surface
report. Contact an attorney who specializes in this kind
of law. Or better still - contact you local public defender
and find out some of the outrageous uses of this mandate that
are starting to become normal as a result before you depend
upon the results of any astrological study in the area.
Hope this helps
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <33700A...@aznet.net>,
woll...@aznet.net wrote:
>
> pete stapleton wrote:
>
> > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>
> Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
> so we can review them.
>
Pete Stapleton comments: certainly you jest. Pete
Jim Rogers
> > > pete stapleton wrote:
> > > > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> > > > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> > > > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> > > > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
> > > Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
> > > so we can review them.
> NEED NO STUPID STUDIES!!!
"Badges? We don't got any badges. We don't need any steenkeeng badges!"
Very enlightening, Pete. Your "astrology that works every time"
apparently can't bear up under the scrutiny of a simple study.
Jim
Hugh Young
In <5kr6ua$f...@fcnews.fc.hp.com> Jim Rogers
<jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>> pete stapleton wrote:
>
>> > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
>> > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
>> > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
>> > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>
>> Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
>> so we can review them.
Don't tempt him, he's already posted it here again and again and again. We
are all spokes or rims or hubs or valves or inner tubes. (I'm a patch.) We
all reviewed it. It didn't work at all and he just kept on insisting that it
did.
--
Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND (= .nz)
#158 My "Reply-to:" address is spam-protected.
twi...@worldnet.att.net
Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>pet...@c-zone.net wrote:
>> Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>> > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>> > > pete stapleton wrote:
>
>> > > > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
>> > > > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
>> > > > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
>> > > > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>
>> > > Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
>> > > so we can review them.
>
>> > *GASP* Ed, what are you saying? Are you *GASP* a SKEPTIC???
>
>> Pete Stapleton comments: STUDIES!!!! STUDIES !!!! WE DON'T
>> NEED NO STUPID STUDIES!!!
>
>"Badges? We don't got any badges. We don't need any steenkeeng badges!"
>
>Very enlightening, Pete. Your "astrology that works every time"
>apparently can't bear up under the scrutiny of a simple study.
>
His "astrology tha works every time" has been shown to not
work much at all!
I prefer the wicked rather than the foolish.
The wicked sometimes rest.
Alexandre Dumas, pere
twi...@worldnet.att.net
hu...@young.wn.planet.gen.n{REMOVE-THIS}z (Hugh Young) wrote:
>In <5kr6ua$f...@fcnews.fc.hp.com> Jim Rogers
><jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>>> pete stapleton wrote:
>>
>>> > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
>>> > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
>>> > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
>>> > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>>
>>> Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
>>> so we can review them.
>
>Don't tempt him, he's already posted it here again and again and again. We
>are all spokes or rims or hubs or valves or inner tubes. (I'm a patch.) We
>all reviewed it. It didn't work at all and he just kept on insisting that it
>did.
>
>
As near as I can tell from Pete's articles, I'm a little
petunia in an onion patch!
Menega Sabidussi
pet...@c-zone.net wrote:
> My point here is much broader. The previous article spoke of
> mandated arrests - where the feds have decided to stop
> domestic violence calls by giving money to the police for
> making arrests every time they respond to a domestic
> violence call. The result has been a tremendous increse in
> arrests in this area - and it has also become evident that
> the male is always the one arrested. This skews the data to
> the point where it is meaningless as far as getting to the
> truth about the source of domestic violence. Hence,
> charts based upon this data which almost automatically marks
> the male as the agressor are meaningless.
> The only way you can use such data is to go beyond the surface
> report. Contact an attorney who specializes in this kind
> of law. Or better still - contact you local public defender
> and find out some of the outrageous uses of this mandate that
> are starting to become normal as a result before you depend
> upon the results of any astrological study in the area.
> =
> Hope this helps
> =
> Pete
> =
> -------------------=3D=3D=3D=3D Posted via Deja News =3D=3D=3D=3D------=
-----------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
I don=B4t mean for this to sound snide but you would like my country. Her=
e
the men don=B4t even get arrested with the woman bleeding on the floor an=
d
the man completely unharmed unless the woman officially accuses the man.
Menega
Lili4love
Subject: conjunctions--literally
From: Ava Rosenblum <a...@efn.org>
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:02:09 -0700
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970507...@garcia.efn.org>
Thanks,
ava r.
lili "good gawd, they aren't colliding?!?!"
peace,
lili
Lili4love
t (this is a key difference between a
scientific approach and a self-affirming believer's approach)? Do be
aware that the course you've outlined is post-hoc rationalization of a
very small sample size, and isn't a controlled survey.
Jim
Lili "jim, your post suggests a rudimentary - perhaps more - grasp of
research design.... yet you seem to think that scientists don't use
post-hoc rationaliztions on very small sample sizes that aren't controlled
surveys... are you really this naive?"
peace,
lili
Lili4love
Don't tempt him, he's already posted it here again and again and again. We
are all spokes or rims or hubs or valves or inner tubes. (I'm a patch.) We
all reviewed it. It didn't work at all and he just kept on insisting that
it
did.
--
Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND (= .nz)
#158 My "Reply-to:" address is spam-protected.
lili - "hugh, you kill me!!!! rims or spokes or valves or inner tubes!!!
that shit was driving - no pun intended- me crazy too.....i'm probably one
of those "fake" spare tires that comes with new cars"
peace,
lili
Lili4love
There is a difference between the SYSTEM that is used to judge, package
and condemn people and the general human tendency to do so... I would
point out that human beings in general use all sorts of languages and
systems of categorizations (race, political stance, profession, status in
society, geographical region, psychological "issue," to name a few) to
judge, label, and package each other. Examples include labeling all
scientists as "soulless pragmatists" and their supporters as "mindless
zombies." Or another example: all astrologers as "con men" and their
supporters as "duped escapists." Although there may be some truth in both
statements some of the time, neither is true all of the time. (Although
it seems very easy, in the midst of passion and opinion, to start
thinking that way...)
-shad
Simple editing will change my domain into "spiritone.com," allowing you
to email me.
don't make it so hard to email you... :))) are you saying a "duped
escapist" is a bad thing? :-)))) if so, i'm sorry i disagree.... :))) on
the lighter side.....
peace,
lili
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <5kt8kv$9...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>,
> > Jim Rogers <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
> > > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > > > pete stapleton wrote:
>
> > > > > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> > > > > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> > > > > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in
domestic
> > > > > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
>
> > > > Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
> > > > so we can review them.
>
>
> > Pete Stapleton comments: STUDIES!!!! STUDIES !!!! WE DON'T
> > NEED NO STUPID STUDIES!!!
>
> "Badges? We don't got any badges. We don't need any steenkeeng badges!"
>
> Very enlightening, Pete. Your "astrology that works every time"
> apparently can't bear up under the scrutiny of a simple study.
>
Pete Stapleton comments: There are studies galore available
which prove the existence of celestial energy which affects
the human condition. I suggest you look to the writings of
Donald Bradley - especially where he complained the a study
which involved the incident of highest rainfall over U.S,
Westher stations over a fifty year period indicated a definite
and certain astrological connection. Over 50,000 charts.
Bradley was a crednetialed person who also proved the existence
of the siderea zodiac by a study of the Lunar placements of
the population found in Who Was Who.
Certainly you are familiar with Bradley's work? If not,,why
not?
Is the reason you claim there are no studies is because you
haven't a clue as to the history of astrology and haven't
conducted even the most rudimentary search?
And of course the answer is yes - you are just another anti
astro fanatic attacking astrology according to the brain
washing you recieved from you so called "scientific" master.
Bah - DO THE WORK BEFORE YOU JOIN THE FANATIC RANKS OF
PAUL SHILLER - THE ULTIMATE OBSESSIVE ANTI ASTRO FANATIC
Pete
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Roger L. Satterlee
Christine Lydon wrote:
>
> On Mon, 05 May 1997 11:07:09 -0600, Jim Rogers
> <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>
> >> > >> > Menega Sabidussi wrote:
> >> > >> > > aggression against family members
>
> >implication that it might be appropriate to use astrology to discern
> >between the "fluke" one-time abuser who has enough conscience and
> >presence of mind to never repeat, and someone with a real problem. If
> >you worked as a rehab counsellor, would you consider it apporpriate to
> >consult horoscopes to help decide?
>
> Idon't think it is valid to divide abusers into two categories: the
> one-time fluke abusers, and those with a real problem (by which I
> assume you mean those who are more likely than not to re-offend).
> There is no way of knowing for certain if a particular criminal will
> re-offend or not. I certainly don't envy those in authority whose
> task it is to decide when to set a criminal free. What a
> responsibility that is.
>
> If I were a rehab counsellor, I would use the birthchart as part of
> the rehab process of raising consciousness and awareness, but then I
> would look directly at the criminal to judge what level of
> consciousness of self he had grown into. You can't read the level of
> someone's consciousness or spiritual awareness from the chart.
> From Christine
Christine,
Do you always approximate your measure of responsibility for the future
misdeeds of others...:)? Or is it just certain men who bring this particular
life experience of the collective to your personal consciousness.? Would your
feeling of being somehow responsible for the future acts of one who is merely
accused have biasing effect on your judgement as a member of a jury?--the latter
situation being a more likely event than the counseling role, yes?
As well, to what extent is your natal chart useful in the symbolizing of
this personal interest or apparent focus you have concerning domestic violence?
This is the only form of astrological "awareness" enhancement I see as
being most appropriatly and necessary to the astrologist. Even Ed Wollmann refuses
to examine his natal chart for those symbols which equate to his focus on "owning"
and "creating" his reality, this topic of one's own motivation in terms of
"natal bias" seems absolutely taboo. How can we dodge this responsible study of
ourselves while we so readily accept the challenge of defining others and their
level of awareness.
Is your current interest in domestic violence a "fluke", or does it
constitute a characteristic behavior, an act, which you are likely to repeat...:)?
pet...@c-zone.net
In article <1a25wex6...@young.wn.planet.gen.nz>,
hu...@young.wn.planet.gen.n{REMOVE-THIS}z wrote:
>
> In <5kr6ua$f...@fcnews.fc.hp.com> Jim Rogers
> <jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
>
> >Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> >> pete stapleton wrote:
> >
> >> > First, it is an accepted concept to do the work before you decide that
> >> > the premise is wrong. I have an astrology that works every time. I
> >> > have taken the trouble too do the chart of those who engage in domestic
> >> > violence and reach the criminal justice system.
> >
> >> Where are these studies published Pete? And who reviewed them? Post them
> >> so we can review them.
>
> Don't tempt him, he's already posted it here again and again and again. We
> are all spokes or rims or hubs or valves or inner tubes. (I'm a patch.) We
> all reviewed it. It didn't work at all and he just kept on insisting that it
> did.
> Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND (= .nz)
> #158 My "Reply-to:" address is spam-protected.
Pete Stapleton comments: HUGH YOUNG, how wonderful!!. You
have conducted studies which prove the Wheel of Life division
s of the Astro energies divide our entire population into
3 separate and distinct divisions wrong. How impressive.
Especially when this Wheel of life has been used by
Indian (the sub cont) for hundreds of years as a viable
system.
Now how silly of me to have missed the publication results
of these studies about the Wheel of Life you say prove me
wrong. Of course you can now prove your point and republish
them. You have joined the general noise level about studies-
YOU CLAIM TO HAVE DONE SOME STUDIES WHICH PROVE ME WRONG -
AND THEN YOU DON'T PUBLISH THEM - WHY? IS IT THE TRUTH OF THE
MATTER THAT THEY DON'T EXIST - HAVE NEVER BEEN DONE AND YOU
ARE A PERSON WHO DOESN'T TELL THE TRUTH?
Pete
studies you claim were done which proved me wrong
Jim Rogers
Lili4love wrote:
> but i got my mom a pager and she "paches, paches, i don't need no stinkin'
> paches" and for the life of me i was clueless as to why she kept saying
> that and she said it was from a movie and then i see someone quoting it...
> if this makes no sense... don't worry .... it shouldn't ......
"Treasure of the Sierra Madre," a classic John Huston movie with
Humphrey Bogart.
Brant Watson
Sorry I cut the whole message folks, but I wanted to say something
independent of any specific remarks already made.
Has anyone considered the legal implications of too widespread
acceptance of astrology? For the time being, astrologers consider
their interference in the lives of others to be anywhere from harmless
to beneficial, so why not go ahead with this bogus art? Why not sell
it hard and go for the gusto? Well, here's a reason you might
consider:
Picture a court case, (spousal abuse or even murder), where a
defense attorney figures he can get a few jurors who believe in
astrology. He bases his defense on the fact that the defendant was
"destined" to commit the crime. He argues that it was an intractible
part of his nature *and* unknown to him. The defendant was helpless
to prevent the tragic outcome because his tendencies were dictated by
the positions of the stars and planets at the time of his birth. Of
course, it wouldn't be hard to come up with "expert" witnesses on the
legitimacy of astrology. There would always be some who, for the
right price, would be glad to assert that the defense had a valid
claim.
The jury, containing members who were selected by the defense
because of their belief in astrology (or even their "openmindedness"),
would become deadlocked. The defendant walks and an extremely
dangerous precedent has been set.
Now those of you who push astrology, I'd like to ask you a question:
are you willing to accept responsibility for this kind of judgment?
All it takes is one favorable set of conditions and the precedent has
been set. It could literally destroy any semblance of justice in our
court system.
We who oppose pseudoscience and, in the case of astrology, pure
bunk, must remain steadfast and unapologetic in our attack of this
utterly bogus form of superstition. We must call its proponents to
task and we must do it loudly and confidently. In the meantime, we
have to keep our ears to the ground and inform one another as soon as
any court case is resolved by the use of astrology. I just hope there
is some law which prevents the introduction of such defenses, like the
"astral evidence" ruling following the Salem witch trials.
Do not consider this scenario absurd. About a year ago, a defense
attorney entered a plea of not guilty in a double murder case, on the
grounds that extraterrestrial aliens mentally forced his client to
commit the crimes. Remember, the defense does not have to prove its
claim. Our problem has to do with reasonable doubt and I am deeply
concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who have any rational
grasp of what constitutes reasonable doubt where the paranormal is
involved. A cursory observation of these newsgroups provides more
than adequate support for this concern.
Brant
Roger L. Satterlee
Brant wrote:
[..] We who oppose pseudoscience and, in the case of astrology, pure
bunk, must remain steadfast and unapologetic in our attack of this
utterly bogus form of superstition. We must call its proponents to
task and we must do it loudly and confidently. In the meantime, we
have to keep our ears to the ground and inform one another as soon as
any court case is resolved by the use of astrology. I just hope there
is some law which prevents the introduction of such defenses, like the
"astral evidence" ruling following the Salem witch trials.[..]
Brant,
The fact that my ex-mother-in-law still resides in Salem Mass is probably
irrelevant, but have you been to any trials lately? The local stuff is much more
bizarre than Court TV; you here more insane nonsense coming from all sides than most
people would believe.
I was a a bail hearing not so long ago where the judge decided to raise the
defendants bail amount from $1000 to $10,000 because the alledged victim claimed to
have been harrassed by the defendant who was awaiting trial.
In brief, the defendant weighed 380 lbs and stands 6'4" tall, he was
reportedly rollerskating at a rink where a church outing was held, but only the
defendant saw him. He claimed he could make a positive identification although he
could only see the back of the defendant. When ask how he could see him, he said,
"I just turned his head around in my mind; then I saw his face."
Despite the obvious nonsense of this testimony, and the fact that the
defendant sat on the chair only because he was full of psychotropic drugs, the gavel
came down and the bail went up...go figure...:)
There is a lot more lunacy in the world than you might ward off in the name
of astrology. It is illegal here for anyone to even obtain anothers birth data from
the Dept. of Vital Statistics.
Roger L. Satterlee
Sorry, a typo: "defendant " should have read "plaintiff" or "alledged victim" in the
sentence below.
Despite the obvious nonsense of this testimony, and the fact that the
defendant sat on the chair only because he was full of psychotropic drugs, the gavel
came down and the bail went up...go figure...:)
--
Lili4love
Subject: Re: Is astrology at all useful for the question of:
Aggression-"Domestic Violence"?
From: tim...@sprintmail.com (Timebot)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:30:33 GMT
Message-ID: <337f24f6....@nntp.a001.sprintmail.com>
timebot wrote...
"points to ponder...
As a person who was molested at 5 years old,I think
it is *very* possible for sexual molestation to take place
without violence. If this were not so, then couples
could not mate without violence either. The word "rape"
in the social sense seems to indicate that violence has
taken place -- although in the legal sense, the word is
used to mean when sex has taken place with one not of the
age of consent -- violence is not necessary to the use
of the word in that context. One can be charged with
rape without having been violent or forcing the act
where minors are involved. In a sense, my ex could
have been charged with rape (before marriage), since
I was 16 and he was 18. Yet it was definitely
consensual -- even our parents couldn't stop us.
Some of us, as children, DO consent when we should not."
Especially when the relationship starts out as an
affectionate one. In a childhood state, unless told
otherwise we do not fear pleasure and as long as a
relationship brings pleasure we do not fear it.
(I had not been taught to fear the hands of people
outside the family. Even the "uncomfortable touching"
idea would not have changed that, because it was not
at all uncomfortable to me in my experience of it.)
Granted that once penetration begins the pain (for a
child) also begins -- but up until that point, it is
possible to be consentual, and perhaps even after for
those young girls who attempt to be "tough".
The lack of judgement on the part of the child is
what makes it "wrong" here, and something which
society does not tolerate.
lili - "its hard to tell from your post but i'm wondering how much you are
judging yourself for "allowing" this experience to occur... i would invite
you to reframe this experience as "positive" in the totality of your
experience... its not lack of judgment on the part of the child... it is
merely the mismatch of societal norms with childlike ideas...power
differentials... etc."
timebot wrote
"I felt no sense of shame after being molested (non
penetration) until *others* told me I had done wrong.
I did not know to hide what happened from my family,
until his sister told me I should have kicked him.
Up until that point, all I knew was that I was
getting a closeness and affection I had never felt
before. I can see where if there had been penetration
(he was not up to that) there might have been pain,
but there is no pain in fondling and caressing unless
it is forced upon someone who does not want it.
It is still wrong to do it to someone who does not
know what they are doing, however.
Timebot"
lili -
something about your post just made my heart go out to you...
IMO you are absolutely correct in your assertions and i invite you to if
you have not already done so to reframing this (and all) issues as
blessings :)))
peace,
lili
Christine Lydon
On 16 May 1997 04:09:19 GMT, lili...@aol.com (Lili4love) wrote:
>timebot wrote...
>As a person who was molested at 5 years old.....(long snip)
>lili - "its hard to tell from your post but i'm wondering how much you are
>judging yourself for "allowing" this experience to occur... i would invite
>you to reframe this experience as "positive" in the totality of your
>experience... its not lack of judgment on the part of the child... it is
>merely the mismatch of societal norms with childlike ideas...power
>differentials... etc."
>"I felt no sense of shame after being molested (non
>penetration) until *others* told me I had done wrong.
>lili -
>something about your post just made my heart go out to you...
>IMO you are absolutely correct in your assertions and i invite you to if
>you have not already done so to reframing this (and all) issues as
>blessings :)))
>lili
Thank you for such an honest and moving post Timebot.
It is good that you can see the difference between how you felt about
what was happening at the time of the events, and how you felt about
other people's reactions afterwards. I agree with Lili, the
experience sounds as if, of itself, it was positive for you at that
time.
This isn't a matter of some platitude which says "any experience can
be positive if you see it as a learning opportunity", nor is it naieve
optimism and wishful thinking that can see anything and everything as
a positive thing. Only you can know the truth of what you feel, and
like peeling the skins of an onion there is always more to realise
about your own feelings and reactions.
I suspect that looking at your chart and the other person's, and
looking at transits to your chart at that time, might confirm it as a
positive thing. I'm not sure exactly what astrological configurations
would count as positive, but perhaps trines and the traditional
benefic planets, and an absence of malefic squares etc.?? No
configuration is inherently good or bad though. But there was bound
to be some outer planet transits to some of your natal patterns, so
this will point out which patterns within you are the ones that hold
the key to understanding the events.
Regarding how to cope with how you feel about it now, perhaps try
looking at the transits to your chart for the time period when other
people found out what was going on and you started to feel guilty or
condemned (if that is what you did feel). The chart will throw more
light on your feelings, which may not be fully conscious yet.
Also, if you have identified which of your natal patterns are linked
to these events, you can watch out for more transits which bring it up
again to replay it another way or take it further.
With Love from Christine
Christine Lydon
On Wed, 07 May 1997 11:15:20 -0600, Jim Rogers wrote:
>Menega Sabidussi wrote:
>> I took extra pains to make it clear that I am in no way involved in
>> these peoples healing processes. any conclusions I draw
>> are not communicated to the therapists involved. (snip)
>> trying to figure out if there even is a pattern to be found, ...
>I saw your careful wording, and respect that you're in a "research"
>phase and not attempting to apply this to therapy. My concern is with
>the implications of the belief that astrology can tell you a person's
>motivations sufficently to discern the potential abusers from the
>non-abusers;
It is my belief that astrology can tell you a lot about someone's
motivations for what they have done, but can't be used to predict what
someone will do. It is possible to look at a chart and see
indicators of violent temper, but not to predict whether the person
will act upon the inner urge or motivation. And of course the
absence of indicators for temper doesn't mean the person will not be
capable of a violent act, they may have other dynamics at work.
> What's the point of this "research" if no one is to apply it? (snip)
>, if it turns out (as I believe) that the astrological
>signals you find are not meaningful at all? Are you willing to accept
>the possibility that there is no meaningful pattern to find,
>Jim
One outcome of finding no universal pattern among abusers is that it
shows how every case of abuse is different and needs to be seen as
unique. The courts and the penal systems and the therapeutic systems
tend to work on the assumption that all abusers have some factor in
common , which either merits a standardised sentance, or will respond
to a standardised course of therapy or treatment.
The use of astrology in a therapeutic setting is that it starts with
the basic principle that the person is unique, and proceeds from there
to use the birthchart as a tool for gaining insight into the person in
a very fast and accurate way. Treatment is totally personalized.
From Christine
Roger L. Satterlee
Operations wrote:
>
> It may be illegal to obtain birth data ... but I wouldn't expect the
> reason to be that astrologers would thus get the advantage of them.
> Surely it only represents concerns over privacy.
> Surely!
>
> JRM
> The birth notices in the daily newspapers are on file...is this
a breach of privacy? More likely the Dept. of Vital Statistics has
another agenda...What might it be other than the usual bureacratic
nonsense? No doubt you've a *scientific* explanation for births being a
"secret" when the gov't is involved...:)
Rog
> > --
> > rog...@ix.netcom.com
> > 11:53pm EDT 26Jul50 Elmira, NY 076W48 42N06
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406
>
> --
> Unless explicitly attributed, the opinions expressed are personal
> and not those of JIS Services or EDS.
Edmond Wollmann
Keith A. McGuinness wrote:
> >It is my belief that astrology can tell you a lot about someone's
> >motivations for what they have done, but can't be used to predict what
> >someone will do.
Well it can to a great degree once we know the law of naturalness and
momentum of the chart.
> Please provide evidence for your belief. (Only joking; I know you
> don't have any.)
There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
by the same measures.
> >It is possible to look at a chart and see
> >indicators of violent temper, but not to predict whether the person
> >will act upon the inner urge or motivation. And of course the
> >absence of indicators for temper doesn't mean the person will not be
> >capable of a violent act, they may have other dynamics at work.
Well solar returns which I use extensively can show many things.
> In other words, your "indicators of violent temper" are completely and
> utterly useless, since,
Cynical garbage and unknowledgable and less than objective scientific
approach deleted.
> a) if they are present, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
> act; and
> b) if they are absent, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
> act.
My, my. Spent a lot of time in thought on this I see.
--
Ig no rant=Deficient of knowledge of either general information or a
specific field; uninformed; untaught; unenlightened-ignorance, the state
of being ignorant, or of lacking knowledge; the condition of not being
cognizant or aware of. Lexicon/Webster..between ignoramous and ignore.
--
CYNIC=From the Greek kynikos, -doglike, churlish. Philos. one of a sect
of ancient Greek philosophers who taught that pleasure is an evil if
sought for its own sake, and made an ostentatious show of contempt for
riches and enjoyment.; sneering faultfinder; one who disbelieves in the
goodness of human motives, and who is given to displaying his disbelief
by sneers and sarcasm-cynicism=the practice of a cynic; a morose
contempt of the pleasures and arts in life. Lexicon/Webster
--
Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
© 1997 Altair Publications
http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Operations
It may be illegal to obtain birth data ... but I wouldn't expect the
reason to be that astrologers would thus get the advantage of them.
Surely it only represents concerns over privacy.
Surely!
JRM
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> Brant wrote:
>
> [..] We who oppose pseudoscience and, in the case of astrology, pure
> bunk, must remain steadfast and unapologetic in our attack of this
> utterly bogus form of superstition. We must call its proponents to
> task and we must do it loudly and confidently. In the meantime, we
> have to keep our ears to the ground and inform one another as soon as
> any court case is resolved by the use of astrology. I just hope there
> is some law which prevents the introduction of such defenses, like the
> "astral evidence" ruling following the Salem witch trials.[..]
>
> Brant,
> The fact that my ex-mother-in-law still resides in Salem Mass is probably
> irrelevant, but have you been to any trials lately? The local stuff is much more
> bizarre than Court TV; you here more insane nonsense coming from all sides than most
> people would believe
[anecdote snipped]
> There is a lot more lunacy in the world than you might ward off in the name
> of astrology. It is illegal here for anyone to even obtain anothers birth data from
> the Dept. of Vital Statistics.
>
Keith A. McGuinness
In article <337f795a...@news.arunet.co.uk>, Khi...@arunet.co.uk (Christine Lydon) wrote:
>It is my belief that astrology can tell you a lot about someone's
>motivations for what they have done, but can't be used to predict what
>someone will do.
Please provide evidence for your belief. (Only joking; I know you
don't have any.)
>It is possible to look at a chart and see
>indicators of violent temper, but not to predict whether the person
>will act upon the inner urge or motivation. And of course the
>absence of indicators for temper doesn't mean the person will not be
>capable of a violent act, they may have other dynamics at work.
In other words, your "indicators of violent temper" are completely and
utterly useless, since,
a) if they are present, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
act; and
b) if they are absent, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
act.
Given this, please tell me how astrology provides you with any useful
insights. (Only joking again; I know it doesn't.)
Keith A. McGuinness <k_mcgu...@bligh.ntu.edu.au>
School of Biological & Environmental Sciences
Northern Territory University
Darwin NT AUSTRALIA
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
"[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
by the same measures.[..]"
Rog comments:
Ed, I would rather see the natal chart and the description of events, and
*then* the commentary concerning your CHP patrolman.
Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
terms of criminal acts?
+-------<11> 7Ari57----<10> 4Pis29-----<9> 9Aqu33-----------+
| | Moo 0Ari10 | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
<12>20Tau00----|-----------------------------|-----19Cap06<8>
| Ven 26Gem28 | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
| Ura 28Gem31 | Name Withheld | |
| | Mon Jul 26 1948 3:17am | |
| | Elmira, NY | |
<1>29Gem28-----| DT -05:00, 76:48W 42:06N |-----29Sag28<7>
| Mer 16Can25 | UT: 7:17, Sid.T: 22:25 | |
| | Placidus Houses | |
| | Tropical / Geocentric | |
| | Julian Day = 2432758.8035 | Jup 19Sag46r |
<2>19Can06-----|-----------------------------|-----20Sco00<6>
| Sun 3Leo11 | Plu 14Leo13 | | |
| | Sat 23Leo08 | | |
| | | | |
| | | Mar 5Lib20 | Nep 10Lib32 |
+----------- 9Leo33<3>----- 4Vir29<4>----- 7Lib57<5>--------+
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Rog
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> "[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> by the same measures.[..]"
> Rog comments:
> Ed, I would rather see the natal chart and the description of events, and
> *then* the commentary concerning your CHP patrolman.
Well I was aware of the events concerning him so of course it was easier
to work on conclusions rather than trying to figure out what was going
on out of thin air. You can read a portion of it in my "Mars and the
State of The Ego" article if you are really interested. I have ALREADY
presented it-you obviously did not read it.
> Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> terms of criminal acts?
First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe you
have Einstein's correct chart so I will qualify it by saying the chart
you present here, with a glance, without complete analysis-is a very
powerless perspective-difficulty maintaining stability, takes things
profoundly personal and has a difficulty maintaining a stable day-to-day
balanced perspective. A disbelief in natural assertion allows for
repression that then explodes in outbursts of "need to prove" scenarios.
Did not percieve the nurture from the mother as a valid
identity-overcompensates by seeking to exact perfection from others-a
profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
greatest. There is tremendous energy that seeks validation-OCD evident,
strong reflection of antisocial pathology. Inability for conscious
control of drives and reflection of the rights of others-it is the
control issue the convicted belief in the lack of it-that drives this
person to seek tremendous self assertion in a negative way-can't seem to
find a sense of validity to his sense of self and its application in the
physical world-the parental situation was very traumatic. It was a very
a strong possibility of his own sexual violation that leads to these
beliefs of powerlessness in the reception of love and caring from his
view-a DIS belief in the positiveness of physicality-that it is
inherently evil. A difficulty in the extreme of seeing the self through
reflection. Which leads to totally incorrect assessments and
attributional errors of others "motives" and thinking.
Of course these are "leads" that a thorough analysis would confirm or
deny as I did more work-I hope you are knowledgable enough of astrology
to realize the work I would have to do to give more sure and concise
information-that right now I do not have the time to do-nor may I ever
do it just for the sake of proving my prowess to you or anyone else.
Thats as far as I can go, I haven't looked at all the placements-just a
few observations.
+-------<11> 7Ari57----<10> 4Pis29-----<9> 9Aqu33-----------+
| | Moo 0Ari10 | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
<12>20Tau00----|-----------------------------|-----19Cap06<8>
| Ven 26Gem28 | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
| Ura 28Gem31 | Name Withheld | |
| | Mon Jul 26 1948 3:17am | |
| | Elmira, NY | |
<1>29Gem28-----| DT -05:00, 76:48W 42:06N |-----29Sag28<7>
| Mer 16Can25 | UT: 7:17, Sid.T: 22:25 | |
| | Placidus Houses | |
| | Tropical / Geocentric | |
| | Julian Day = 2432758.8035 | Jup 19Sag46r |
<2>19Can06-----|-----------------------------|-----20Sco00<6>
| Sun 3Leo11 | Plu 14Leo13 | | |
| | Sat 23Leo08 | | |
| | | | |
| | | Mar 5Lib20 | Nep 10Lib32 |
+----------- 9Leo33<3>----- 4Vir29<4>----- 7Lib57<5>--------+
--
"You are inventing all sorts of feelings for me such as I have never
really had at all, and then getting cross with me for having them. That
is not a very amiable proceeding, is it?" Murasaki Shikaba, Japanese
Poet, (974-1031)
--
Roger L. Satterlee
In <33834A...@aznet.net> Edmond Wollmann <woll...@aznet.net>
writes:
>
>Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
>> Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>> > First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe
you
>> > have Einstein's correct chart so...[..]"
>
>> Ed,
>> Why not just say you found a typo ...:)
>
>Cause I didn't, I didn't even read it that close, I just looked at the
>ascendant and saw it was wrong.
>
>> Here is what it should look like to the best of my knowledge.
>
>Yep, pretty close.
>
>> Uranus is still retrograde and still a focal planet; it
still serves as an
>> example of that quality in emphasis.
>
>Yes, but the whole law of momentum flow (EW) is now changed with the
>reigning need of the moon to be acknowledged by others for one's
>opinions and beliefs (Moon in Sagittarius) the FOCAL PLANET as it
rules
>the ascendent and DRIVES the Uranus in 3, and corraborates that flow
by
>its placement in 6 correlating the need for analytical discernment (to
>be correct in those beliefs) which is the sign and symbol archetypally
>of Uranus' placement in Virgo!!!! It rules 9 (the NATURAL HOUSE of
>Sagittariius) and further reflects the flow of HOW that analytical
>correctness for his beliefs would come about (the AWAKENING of this
>unconscious knowledge in OTHERS thinking (9)) reflected through the
>academic community (ALSO 9). Mercury, the ruler of 4 and dispositor of
>Uranus is conjunct Saturn (scientific focus and MATH) ruler of 7 with
>ITS dispositor there as well (Mars in Capricorn)-the diligence and
focus
>to PROVE the visionary insight (Picses Sun/Sag Moon) through focused
>applications (Saturn and Mars in Cap in Mutual reception) to the
public
>(7) as a part of the life direction and full manifestation of the self
>in physicality (10). The transits and progressions at the time of
>acknowledgment of his theories in 1919 reflect the momentum of this
>belief definition and identity establishment-at that time (4-Mercury
and
>the establishment of THIS identity). Jupiter (ruling the 6th and
>disposing of the moon) was completing a grand trine to the Moon and
>Venus (ruling 5 and 11 creative and co-created extension interaction)
at
>that time. With your all important Uranus CONJUNCT JUPITER IN 9, so
you
>see, Jupiter, Sagittarius, and the Moons position are vitally
important
>in this delineation.
>
>
>> +-------<11>18Ari20----<10>12Pis50-----<9>17Aqu49-----------+
>> | Nep 7Tau52 | Sun 23Pis30 | | |
>> | Plu 24Tau44 | Mer 3Ari09 | | |
>> | | Sat 4Ari11 | | |
>> | | Ven 16Ari59 | Jup 27Aqu29 | |
>> <12> 3Gem11----|-----------------------------|-----28Cap40<8>
>> | | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
>> | | Albert Einstein | |
>> | | Fri Mar 14 1879 11:30am | |
>> | | Ulm, Gernmany | Mar 26Cap55 |
>> <1>11Can44-----| ST +00:40, 10:00E 48:30N |-----11Cap44<7>
>> | | UT: 10:90, Sid.T: 22:56 | |
>> | | Placidus Houses | |
>> | | Tropical / Geocentric | |
>> | | Julian Day = 2407422.9514 | Moo 14Sag32 |
>> <2>28Can40-----|-----------------------------|----- 3Sag11<6>
>> | | Ura 1Vir17r | | |
>> | | | | |
>> | | | | |
>> | | | | |
>> +-----------17Leo49<3>-----12Vir50<4>-----18Lib20<5>--------+
>--
>"There are only two ways to live your life. One as though nothing is a
>miracle. The other is though everything is a miracle."
>Albert Einstein
>--
>Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
>© 1997 Altair Publications
>http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Ed,
All that being said, natal Uranus being retrograde and opposite
Natal Jupiter is as good as symbol as any for Einstein's erroneous
supposition of a negative or repelling gravity force which keeps the
universe from collapsing on itself. It was the work of Hubble and his
telescope observations of the red shift which reintroduced the
necessary objective framework which allowed Einstien to put his
imaginative, subjective perceptions back to work in a more productive
and or enlightened manner.
Hubble's Sun opposition to Neptune and Pluto I equate symbolically
to Hubble's eventual awareness that certain Nebulae were really
galaxies *outside* the Milky Way.
BTW, I no you enjoy making religous metaphors more concrete, but
the concept of reincarnation seems a rather messy and unnecessary
premise for one's psychological motivation. But far be it from me to
walk on another mans epiphany--whatever.
As to dispositors and house rulerships, and all that good stuff, it
seems a pile of suppositions similar to a house of well-waxed cards,
but I see how they are useful for making intuited thoughts temporarilly
appear concrete--a means to giving verbage to the faintest ghost of a
thought.
Rog
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> > > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > > "[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> > > patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> > > came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> > > eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> > > Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> > > by the same measures.[..]"
> > > Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> > > terms of criminal acts?
"a profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
greatest."
HHHmmm I would say to the skeptics, this looks like proof of astrology
here-perhaps?
First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe you
| | Placidus Houses | |
| | Tropical / Geocentric | |
| | Julian Day = 2432758.8035 | Jup 19Sag46r |
<2>19Can06-----|-----------------------------|-----20Sco00<6>
| Sun 3Leo11 | Plu 14Leo13 | | |
| | Sat 23Leo08 | | |
| | | | |
| | | Mar 5Lib20 | Nep 10Lib32 |
+----------- 9Leo33<3>----- 4Vir29<4>----- 7Lib57<5>--------+
--
> Yes, one could read it the way you have, and it is my opinion that people
> have a tendency to read the actual person that way. There's only one problem, he
> is a total pacifist and lifelong vegetarian.
Irrelevant I was not only correct in my analysis but his reality
confirms my philosophical postulates as well, because your reality
always is created by the beliefs you hold and if you review my outline
(brief as it is) his reality perfectly conforms to those definitions I
identified.
> He is basically a political prisoner.
> His crime amounts to paying three male teenage prostitutes for consentual sex.
Well, thats where I said he was criminally oriented now didn't I? Now
tell the groups here how much info I had about this person other than
your one statement where you tried to fool me into thinking he was
violent?:-)
> These persons came to his house soliciting. Two of the teens were currently
> charged with multiple burglaries, and the third charged with sexual assault while
> he was a patient at the psych center. When it was also discovered that they had in
> the past had this sex for money arrangement with our subject here, a political
> gadfly, the DA was more than happy to use the very willing testimony of the teens
> to rid himself of a nuisance fond of exposing local corruption.
Oh well that makes his whole integrity unquestionable now does it? I was
correct and I will stand by the other definitions I outlined because I
know they are there.
> I don't happen to like the idea of bi-sexual men having sex with teen
> prostitutes, but this is guy who has a MA in Education, and never had so much as a
> parking ticket.
Irrelevant. This is where I identified him giving power away and
creating that type of reality experience is a given from what I can see
in the chart-not a judgment just a discernment of belief momentum.
> He is now doing 81/3 to 25 years because his being a closet gay was
> politically exploitable.
No, he's in jail because he committed a crime, does not believe in his
own power as I stated initially, is out of integrity, and believes that
physicality is evil-as I said-hence the vibration you are will be the
reality you experience EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME-IT ALWAYS WORKS THIS
WAY-IT NEVER DOESN'T WORK AND NO ONE IS EXEMPT.
"Inability for conscious control of drives and reflection of the rights
of others-" REREAD WHAT I SAID anyone so inclined and tell me I was not
correct!
> Because the world really is the way it is, I hesitate to
> mention the people who arranged this absurd melodrama.
Rationalization is a very out of integrity characteristic you have-one
that I became aware of early on. THIS world is the way it is because WE
create it to be so-and this mans and my own reality are created by what
we believe and have been taught to believe is true UTTERLY as I so aptly
demonstrated can be seen by ASTROLOGY-proven right here NOW.
> After long reflection, it seems to me that the idealism of this
> political activist, and the guilt or shame he must have associated with his being
> attracted to young men, had eventually become an urge to be martyred--simply
> because he felt he should be punished. Once the accusations were made against
> him, he did everything in his power to get himself convicted and the worst
> sentence he could manage--in for a penny, in for a pound...Once he had been
> publicly shamed by this sexual disgression, which could have been
Well I told you he had a belief that the material world was "bad and
evil" now didn't I? When are you going to get it! HE CREATED THAT
REALITY. No one did anything TO him because life happens THROUGH YOU NOT
TO YOU. YOU have Mars in Libra-it would behoove you to change that
belief as well. Reality is not foisted upon us.
>pleaded to
> misdeanor statusas was the case of a local police officer, I think he would have
> kept after whoever he might find useful to this esculating, self-defeating cycle.
> Frankly I don't understand any of it. I think his being an devout atheist was
> important to understanding him, but I be a long time really making sense of this
> guy's self-designed persecution....he was one happy kid with no complaints.
So say you and he. Everyone does not understand their own psyche with
precision, that is part of the service I find to be my inspiration. To
assist in that move toward clarity.
The reality's always confirm my perception-TWO ways to see the person's
beliefs. The chart and the life-makes no difference to me BOTH will be
the perfect reflection of the idea we choose to be.
If we don't prefer them we can change them at any given moment. But we
must OWN it FIRST.
--
"Up in your sterilized room where they let you be lazy. Knowin your
attitude's all wrong and you gotta change and thats not easy. The
Peacock is afraid to parade, you're under the thumb of the maid. And you
really can't give love in this condition-still you know that you need
it. They open and close you-and they talk like they know you-they don't
know you!!..they're friends and they're foes too- troubled child,
breakin like the waves at Malibu." Joni Mitchell "Troubled Child"
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe you
Ed,
Why not just say you found a typo ...:)
Here is what it should look like to the best of my knowledge.
Uranus is still retrograde and still a focal planet; it still serves as an
example of that quality in emphasis.
+-------<11>18Ari20----<10>12Pis50-----<9>17Aqu49-----------+
| Nep 7Tau52 | Sun 23Pis30 | | |
| Plu 24Tau44 | Mer 3Ari09 | | |
| | Sat 4Ari11 | | |
| | Ven 16Ari59 | Jup 27Aqu29 | |
<12> 3Gem11----|-----------------------------|-----28Cap40<8>
| | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
| | Albert Einstein | |
| | Fri Mar 14 1879 11:30am | |
| | Ulm, Gernmany | Mar 26Cap55 |
<1>11Can44-----| ST +00:40, 10:00E 48:30N |-----11Cap44<7>
| | UT: 10:90, Sid.T: 22:56 | |
| | Placidus Houses | |
| | Tropical / Geocentric | |
| | Julian Day = 2407422.9514 | Moo 14Sag32 |
<2>28Can40-----|-----------------------------|----- 3Sag11<6>
| | Ura 1Vir17r | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | |
+-----------17Leo49<3>-----12Vir50<4>-----18Lib20<5>--------+
Rog
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
--
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> > "[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> > patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> > came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> > eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> > Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> > by the same measures.[..]"
>
>
> > Ed, I would rather see the natal chart and the description of events, and
> > *then* the commentary concerning your CHP patrolman.
>
> Well I was aware of the events concerning him so of course it was easier
> to work on conclusions rather than trying to figure out what was going
> on out of thin air. You can read a portion of it in my "Mars and the
> State of The Ego" article if you are really interested. I have ALREADY
> presented it-you obviously did not read it.
Ed,
No, I have never seen your post...the title would certainly have attracted
my attention.
>
> > Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> > terms of criminal acts?
>
> First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe you
> | | Placidus Houses | |
> | | Tropical / Geocentric | |
> | | Julian Day = 2432758.8035 | Jup 19Sag46r |
> <2>19Can06-----|-----------------------------|-----20Sco00<6>
> | Sun 3Leo11 | Plu 14Leo13 | | |
> | | Sat 23Leo08 | | |
> | | | | |
> | | | Mar 5Lib20 | Nep 10Lib32 |
> +----------- 9Leo33<3>----- 4Vir29<4>----- 7Lib57<5>--------+
> --
Yes, one could read it the way you have, and it is my opinion that people
have a tendency to read the actual person that way. There's only one problem, he
is a total pacifist and lifelong vegetarian. He is basically a political prisoner.
His crime amounts to paying three male teenage prostitutes for consentual sex.
These persons came to his house soliciting. Two of the teens were currently
charged with multiple burglaries, and the third charged with sexual assault while
he was a patient at the psych center. When it was also discovered that they had in
the past had this sex for money arrangement with our subject here, a political
gadfly, the DA was more than happy to use the very willing testimony of the teens
to rid himself of a nuisance fond of exposing local corruption.
I don't happen to like the idea of bi-sexual men having sex with teen
prostitutes, but this is guy who has a MA in Education, and never had so much as a
parking ticket. He is now doing 81/3 to 25 years because his being a closet gay was
politically exploitable. Because the world really is the way it is, I hesitate to
mention the people who arranged this absurd melodrama.
After long reflection, it seems to me that the idealism of this
political activist, and the guilt or shame he must have associated with his being
attracted to young men, had eventually become an urge to be martyred--simply
because he felt he should be punished. Once the accusations were made against
him, he did everything in his power to get himself convicted and the worst
sentence he could manage--in for a penny, in for a pound...Once he had been
publicly shamed by this sexual disgression, which could have been pleaded to
misdeanor statusas was the case of a local police officer, I think he would have
kept after whoever he might find useful to this esculating, self-defeating cycle.
Frankly I don't understand any of it. I think his being an devout atheist was
important to understanding him, but I be a long time really making sense of this
guy's self-designed persecution....he was one happy kid with no complaints.
Rog
> "You are inventing all sorts of feelings for me such as I have never
> really had at all, and then getting cross with me for having them. That
> is not a very amiable proceeding, is it?" Murasaki Shikaba, Japanese
> Poet, (974-1031)
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Rog
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > First I will assume the correctness of the chart-I don't believe you
> Ed,
> Why not just say you found a typo ...:)
Cause I didn't, I didn't even read it that close, I just looked at the
ascendant and saw it was wrong.
> Here is what it should look like to the best of my knowledge.
Yep, pretty close.
> Uranus is still retrograde and still a focal planet; it still serves as an
> example of that quality in emphasis.
Yes, but the whole law of momentum flow (EW) is now changed with the
> +-------<11>18Ari20----<10>12Pis50-----<9>17Aqu49-----------+
> | Nep 7Tau52 | Sun 23Pis30 | | |
> | Plu 24Tau44 | Mer 3Ari09 | | |
> | | Sat 4Ari11 | | |
> | | Ven 16Ari59 | Jup 27Aqu29 | |
> <12> 3Gem11----|-----------------------------|-----28Cap40<8>
> | | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
> | | Albert Einstein | |
> | | Fri Mar 14 1879 11:30am | |
> | | Ulm, Gernmany | Mar 26Cap55 |
> <1>11Can44-----| ST +00:40, 10:00E 48:30N |-----11Cap44<7>
> | | UT: 10:90, Sid.T: 22:56 | |
> | | Placidus Houses | |
> | | Tropical / Geocentric | |
> | | Julian Day = 2407422.9514 | Moo 14Sag32 |
> <2>28Can40-----|-----------------------------|----- 3Sag11<6>
> | | Ura 1Vir17r | | |
> | | | | |
> | | | | |
> | | | | |
> +-----------17Leo49<3>-----12Vir50<4>-----18Lib20<5>--------+
--
"There are only two ways to live your life. One as though nothing is a
miracle. The other is though everything is a miracle."
Albert Einstein
Jim Rogers
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> Keith A. McGuinness wrote:
> > In article <337f795a...@news.arunet.co.uk>, Khi...@arunet.co.uk (Christine Lydon) wrote:
> > >It is my belief that astrology can tell you a lot about someone's
> > >motivations for what they have done, but can't be used to predict what
> > >someone will do.
> Well it can to a great degree once we know the law of naturalness and
> momentum of the chart.
Let's test this sometime, then.
> > Please provide evidence for your belief. (Only joking; I know you
> > don't have any.)
> There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> by the same measures.
That isn't "evidence," Ed, that's post-hoc rationalizing. Can we turn
these claims into a controlled test? One in which you don't know nor
have any means by which to suspect the answers ahead of time, that is.
...
> > In other words, your "indicators of violent temper" are completely and
> > utterly useless, since,
> Cynical garbage and unknowledgable and less than objective scientific
> approach deleted.
Curious; I see no deletion in your post between the above and the below
of Keith's whatsoever. You wouldn't be trying to pretend that Keith said
more than he did now, would you, Ed?
> > a) if they are present, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
> > act; and
>
> > b) if they are absent, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
> > act.
> My, my. Spent a lot of time in thought on this I see.
It doesn't take much time when the proponent's argument is so
transparent. I realize that simple logic might occasionally be difficult
for you, but don't blame Keith for that.
CHARLATAN: A person who claims to possess knowledge or skill that he
does not have; quack. [Fr. < Ital. *ciarlatano*, perh. < *ciarlare*, to
prattle.] (Amer. Her. Dict., 2nd Col. Ed.)
Jim
Operations
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> Operations wrote:
> >
> > It may be illegal to obtain birth data ... but I wouldn't expect the
> > reason to be that astrologers would thus get the advantage of them.
> > Surely it only represents concerns over privacy.
> > Surely!
> >
> > JRM
> a breach of privacy? More likely the Dept. of Vital Statistics has
> another agenda...What might it be other than the usual bureacratic
> nonsense? No doubt you've a *scientific* explanation for births being a
> "secret" when the gov't is involved...:)
>
No - I have no explanation. I could speculate or research it, but will
not.
I merely wanted to point out that the reason for official secrecy (if
indeed that claim is true) would not (hopefully) involve superstition.
JRM
EWollmann
Jim Rogers with his usual cynical blinders and bias wrote:
> Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> by the same measures.
Jim says,
That isn't "evidence," Ed, that's post-hoc rationalizing. Can we turn
these claims into a controlled test? One in which you don't know nor
have any means by which to suspect the answers ahead of time, that is.
Ed says,
Just did that in this thread.
---
"All you backwoods schemers-power-trip-dreamers better find something new
to say, cause its the same old story and the same old crime and you got
some heavy dues to pay!!!! I'm a space cowboy, bet you weren't ready for
that! I'm a space cowboy, I know you know where its at, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah!!!! Steve Miller "Space Cowboy"
Edmond H. Wollmann
http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
EWollmann
Rog wrote in his usual self serving way:
BTW, I no
--
(thats know Roger-symbolic of your attempts at shortcuts to accuracy)
--
you enjoy making religous metaphors more concrete, but
the concept of reincarnation seems a rather messy and unnecessary
premise for one's psychological motivation. But far be it from me to
walk on another mans epiphany--whatever.
--
You will never be capable of walking on anything of mine.
--
As to dispositors and house rulerships, and all that good stuff, it
seems a pile of suppositions similar to a house of well-waxed cards,
but I see how they are useful for making intuited thoughts temporarilly
appear concrete--a means to giving verbage to the faintest ghost of a
thought.
Rog
Edmond says,
Its astrology Rog, and you obviously know nothing of it. You will never
achieve your obsession for status without real work and application
demonstration-all this attacking and derogation of those you feel the
threat, only allows your true intentions to be revealed-to others at
least, I knew them from the beginning.
Clean up your act.
--
"Like a dog that returns to its vomit-is a fool who reverts to his folly.
Do you see persons wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for fools
than for them." Proverbs 26:11,12
Roger L. Satterlee
Theresa Ornell wrote:
>
> > Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> > terms of criminal acts?
> >
> > +-------<11> 7Ari57----<10> 4Pis29-----<9> 9Aqu33-----------+
> > | | Moo 0Ari10 | | |
> > | | | | |
> > | | | | |
> > | | | | |
> > <12>20Tau00----|-----------------------------|-----19Cap06<8>
> > | Ven 26Gem28 | Astrolog 5.20 chart | |
> > | Ura 28Gem31 | Name Withheld | |
> > | | Mon Jul 26 1948 3:17am | |
> > | | Elmira, NY | |
> > <1>29Gem28-----| DT -05:00, 76:48W 42:06N |-----29Sag28<7>
> > | Mer 16Can25 | UT: 7:17, Sid.T: 22:25 | |
> > | | Placidus Houses | |
> > | | Tropical / Geocentric | |
> > | | Julian Day = 2432758.8035 | Jup 19Sag46r |
> > <2>19Can06-----|-----------------------------|-----20Sco00<6>
> > | Sun 3Leo11 | Plu 14Leo13 | | |
> > | | Sat 23Leo08 | | |
> > | | | | |
> > | | | Mar 5Lib20 | Nep 10Lib32 |
> > +----------- 9Leo33<3>----- 4Vir29<4>----- 7Lib57<5>--------+
> >
> > > Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> > > © 1997 Altair Publications
> > > http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
> >
> > Rog
> >
> > --
> > rog...@ix.netcom.com
> > 11:53pm EDT 26Jul50 Elmira, NY 076W48 42N06
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406
>
> Dear Roger, I just can't understand why everytime I read your posts I
> think of Paul Austens book, I can't remember the title, it's about two
> men that try to win a poker game. They end up at some mansion with two
> very wealthy (lottery winners?) men. I see you in the role as one of
> the two millioners. I just can't decide if it's the one that builds the
> miniature city or the other one.... Then I think of Edgar Allen Poe, and
> A. Hitchcock(Leo). There seems to be some very dark undercurrents... So
> if fantasy and truth are sometimes intermingled, well then your chart
> would show some tendency towards violence. Or maybe it's just a
> fascination for it?
>
> Coleen
Coleen,
While looking over some family relics a while back, I found a diary for new
mothers which the Carnation Milk people had distributed as a form of advertizing in
maternity wards. I had never seen it before. "My first presents:" I read, "from
Mother: ___a western six-shooter that rattles....its yellow"
Now I am a 46 yr old man, and there is a nearly inexplicable BB pistol here in
my desk drawer. It has always been a ridiculous object for which I have no use, and it
takes up precious space. However, as I always keep a few BB's in it.....it
rattles.....:)
Roger L. Satterlee
EWollmann wrote:
>
> Rog wrote in his usual self serving way:
>
> BTW, I no
> --
> (thats know Roger-symbolic of your attempts at shortcuts to accuracy)
> --
> the concept of reincarnation seems a rather messy and unnecessary
> premise for one's psychological motivation. But far be it from me to
> walk on another mans epiphany--whatever.
> You will never be capable of walking on anything of mine.
> --
> seems a pile of suppositions similar to a house of well-waxed cards,
> but I see how they are useful for making intuited thoughts temporarilly
> appear concrete--a means to giving verbage to the faintest ghost of a
> thought.
>
> Rog
>
> Its astrology Rog, and you obviously know nothing of it. You will never
> achieve your obsession for status without real work and application
> demonstration-all this attacking and derogation of those you feel the
> threat, only allows your true intentions to be revealed-to others at
> least, I knew them from the beginning.
> Clean up your act.
> --
> "Like a dog that returns to its vomit-is a fool who reverts to his folly.
> Do you see persons wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for fools
> than for them." Proverbs 26:11,12
>
> Edmond H. Wollmann
Ed,
All that being said, natal Uranus being retrograde and opposite
Natal Jupiter is as good as symbol as any for Einstein's erroneous
supposition of a negative or repelling gravity force which keeps the
universe from collapsing on itself. It was the work of Hubble and his
telescope observations of the red shift which reintroduced the
necessary objective framework which allowed Einstien to put his
imaginative, subjective perceptions back to work in a more productive
and or enlightened manner.
Hubble's Sun opposition to Neptune and Pluto I equate symbolically
to Hubble's eventual awareness that certain Nebulae were really
galaxies *outside* the Milky Way.
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> > > > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> > > > "[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> > > > patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> > > > came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> > > > eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> > > > Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> > > > by the same measures.[..]"
>
> > > > Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > > > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> > > > terms of criminal acts?
>
> "a profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
> here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
> greatest."
> HHHmmm I would say to the skeptics, this looks like proof of astrology
> here-perhaps?
>
Ed, I did not ask you *IF* the man was a convicted felon--this was a given; I see
no "proof of astrology" and so forth. I do see the standard desciption of Leo altered to
fit the chart of a person already described as a convicted felon.
In as much as the offenses were of a sexual nature is something you
correctly appraised; but I have written about this case in an oblique manner as recently
as this week when I described a bail hearing. Whether or not your performance as a
reader of charts is correct, the situation is such that you have been
unintentionally and unwittingly exposed to a bias prior to your reading. I had no idea
that this was to be some sort of exposition, for I would not have used this
particular case.
The subject whom you insist harbors an "antisocial pathology" came in second in a
three way mayoral race a few years back...not a few people thought his politics were
reasonable.
Does running for Mayor or District Councilman equal--"...the crimes of seeking
power over others..."?
The fact that I asked you to give your opinion--your reading--as to the subject's
propensity for violence, is no trick. It was a simple request as part of what was a
discussion on alt.astrology, and now seems a broad stage for a performing astrologer.
"...how would you rate this chart as to a propensity for violence? What
specifically might you expect from this man in terms of criminal acts?"
You never got around to saying whether or not the subject was violent man.
I think it is rather important that you recognize the fact that this man has ever
been committed to total non-violence--his role model is Ghandi.
You have told me that a convicted felon has a problem controlling his behavior.
To be fair, where is the revelation here?
I was unaware that it is your custom to crosspost to the whole world when you
find something to boast about, but it seems that is the way you chose to have a
discussion. This seems an unnecessary, and unproductive activity.
I have another chart, a documented person, if you would like an untainted trial
of your prowess. However, I must say I'm sorry everything has to be a matter of advocacy
and egoistic contests. You are not being objective to claim you have proven astrology
here. You have however vaguely described a Leo sculptor, a manipulator of clay, whose
work is intended to have shock value and often employs sexual themes.
It is almost funny that a City Councilmen running for Mayor here this fall,
actually stabbed a cab driver in the throat with a broken beer bottle during a robbery
when he was 18. We don't make up this kind of "reality", Ed, it just is.
Thanks,
Rog
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
--
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> > > > > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > > > > "[..]There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> > > > > patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> > > > > came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> > > > > eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> > > > > Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> > > > > by the same measures.[..]"
> > > > > Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > > > > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in
> > > > > terms of criminal acts?
> > "a profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
> > here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
> > greatest."
> > HHHmmm I would say to the skeptics, this looks like proof of astrology
> > here-perhaps?
> Ed, I did not ask you *IF* the man was a convicted felon--this was a given; I see
> no "proof of astrology" and so forth.
Of course you don't. You are cynical, egotistical and have no intention
of seeking truth. The post however speaks for itself-I could have said
an infinite array of things-other than the exact and correct
delineation. Figure out the z-score and P value statistically on the
probability of my doing that with an alpha of .05 (standard). Mr.
scientists.
>I do see the standard desciption of Leo altered to
> fit the chart of a person already described as a convicted felon.
Oh please, this will be my last conversation with you. All Leos have a
disbelief in thier own power and are likely to commit sex crimes? You
are a dreamer not a scientist. Do you know what the numbers are on your
idiotic statement?
> In as much as the offenses were of a sexual nature is something you
> correctly appraised; but I have written about this case in an oblique manner as recently
> as this week when I described a bail hearing. Whether or not your performance as a
> reader of charts is correct, the situation is such that you have been
> unintentionally and unwittingly exposed to a bias prior to your reading.
Mispresentation and spin doctoring. I have never seen this chart or
heard of this man or his problems before-talk about ego-I don't even
read your posts that are not addressed to me. I haven't found them to
contain anything of use. Always defending your dreamy concoctions and
questioning everyone elses with scientific prose. You are neither
strategic or effective.
> I had no idea
> that this was to be some sort of exposition, for I would not have used this
> particular case.
More emotive attempts to spin. If, if, if. This is called fundemental
attribution error. Success is always good planning and failure is always
fate.
> The subject whom you insist harbors an "antisocial pathology" came in second in a
> three way mayoral race a few years back...not a few people thought his politics were
> reasonable.
Not a few people supported Hitler. Irrelevant.
> Does running for Mayor or District Councilman equal--"...the crimes of seeking
> power over others..."?
YES, YES, and yes. Politics along with organized religion is the science
of following and that is their primary intent-for the self empowered
know that everyone is equal and everyone has the same access to the "All
That Is". So yes, powerless people are in politics pretty much as the
effect of the belief in the need for protection-hence the belief in
power over others-yes-this is not a stretch but a fact.
> The fact that I asked you to give your opinion--your reading--as to the subject's
> propensity for violence, is no trick. It was a simple request as part of what was a
> discussion on alt.astrology, and now seems a broad stage for a performing astrologer.
And your past criticism of everything I have ever said has no relevance?
I was born at noon-BUT NOT YESTERDAY NOON.
End of conversation-why are you on alt.astrology anyway? Why don't you
go to alt.cynic with the rest of them and at least play your proper role
up front with courage? Or do you even know WHAT role you wish to play?
Seeing all sides of an argument (and even criticising all of them)
CANNOT BE an end in itself.
> "...how would you rate this chart as to a propensity for violence? What
> specifically might you expect from this man in terms of criminal acts?"
> You never got around to saying whether or not the subject was violent man.
The post speaks for itself. Now you try to hold me responsible for
things I did not say in an attempt to remove the accuracy from my post.
This is simple psychology.
> I think it is rather important that you recognize the fact that this man has ever
> been committed to total non-violence--his role model is Ghandi.
Irrelevant. Nixon was "the President" too. Besides, I never said he was
"bad or good" I simply stated his beliefs-which were confirmed both in
the story of his life and in the information you provided.
> You have told me that a convicted felon has a problem controlling his behavior.
> To be fair, where is the revelation here?
To be fair, I had no info but your biased perception. And even that did
not and does not affect me.
> I was unaware that it is your custom to crosspost to the whole world when you
> find something to boast about, but it seems that is the way you chose to have a
> discussion. This seems an unnecessary, and unproductive activity.
Well now you know-been doing it and will continue to expose frauds and
those with underhanded motives such as you for as long as I am here and
able. I will repost your "productive posts" about orifices, ejaculation,
how you are "so upset" by actions of others etc. and other such
revealing gutter expressions if you wish-better to be silent and thought
a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
> I have another chart, a documented person, if you would like an untainted trial
> of your prowess.
As I have said before and will say again-I KNOW what my prowess is-which
is why I don't take all these silly challenges-I followed a post you
asked about and it was correct-I am now pointing that out for those who
need it. You nor anyone else has taken my challenge, why would I need to
prove myself to lesser challenges than the one I presented no one can
take? You are not thinking straight.
> However, I must say I'm sorry everything has to be a matter of advocacy
> and egoistic contests.
Yes, I'm sure you are this is very characteristic of Leos:-))))))))
NOT!
> You are not being objective to claim you have proven astrology
> here. You have however vaguely described a Leo sculptor, a manipulator of clay, whose
> work is intended to have shock value and often employs sexual themes.
One of those "more than I needed to know" statements. How does this have
anything to do with my being wrong or vague? On the contrary it
fortifies my perceptions.
Next?
> It is almost funny that a City Councilmen running for Mayor here this fall,
> actually stabbed a cab driver in the throat with a broken beer bottle during a robbery
> when he was 18. We don't make up this kind of "reality", Ed, it just is.
There is no "just is" everything happens for a reason and is our
creation.
We and you create it totally as the product of what we/you believe. As
this mans reality so accurately reflects. I act only on what I prefer
and don't on that which I do not. Cynicism is not only negative and
destructive-but a waste of life and time. Therefore, find some other
gnats to strain at and sides to straddle- I have a life.
--
"To see what is right and not to do it is want of courage" Confucious
"A wise and good man can suffer no disgrace" Fabius Maximus
Roger L. Satterlee
Ed,
You are acting like a man suffering from delusions of grandure and paranoia.
Rog
--
Keith A. McGuinness
In article <338280...@aznet.net>, woll...@aznet.net wrote:
>Keith A. McGuinness wrote:
>
>> In article <337f795a...@news.arunet.co.uk>, Khi...@arunet.co.uk
> (Christine Lydon) wrote:
>
>> >It is my belief that astrology can tell you a lot about someone's
>> >motivations for what they have done, but can't be used to predict what
>> >someone will do.
>
>Well it can to a great degree once we know the law of naturalness and
>momentum of the chart.
I was about to write "Please provide evidence for your belief" but
then I read on...
>> Please provide evidence for your belief. (Only joking; I know you
>> don't have any.)
>
>There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
>patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
>came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
>eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
>Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
>by the same measures.
Ah yes, the old "read it in my upcoming { book | paper | report |
delete inapplicable }". Of course, this might be more convincing if
you actually *predicted* something.
>> >It is possible to look at a chart and see
>> >indicators of violent temper, but not to predict whether the person
>> >will act upon the inner urge or motivation. And of course the
>> >absence of indicators for temper doesn't mean the person will not be
>> >capable of a violent act, they may have other dynamics at work.
>
>Well solar returns which I use extensively can show many things.
So *you* say.
>> In other words, your "indicators of violent temper" are completely and
>> utterly useless, since,
>
>Cynical garbage and unknowledgable and less than objective scientific
>approach deleted.
"deleted"? There was nothing there to delete! The below followed
directly from the above.
>> a) if they are present, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
>> act; and
>
>> b) if they are absent, the person may, or may not, commit a violent
>> act.
>
>My, my. Spent a lot of time in thought on this I see.
Only as much as it needed.
But I'll explain it to you again if you're having trouble. The
original poster (Christine Lydon) said that you "look at a chart and
see indicators of violent temper" but you couldn't predict whether
they would do anything violent. She also said "the absence of
indicators for temper doesn't mean the person will not be capable of a
violent act".
Thus, according to what *she* wrote (note: she not me), the charts do
not tell you whether someone will or will not do something. (Of
course, you can make all sorts of post hoc rationalizations and *that*
seems to be quite popular.)
Cynically yours,
----------------------------------------------------------
Keith A. McGuinness <k_mcgu...@nospam.bligh.ntu.edu.au>
School of Biological & Environmental Sciences
Northern Territory University
Darwin NT AUSTRALIA
----------------------------------------------------------
Remove "nospam." from address to send email.
----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Rogers
EWollmann wrote:
> Jim Rogers with his usual cynical blinders and bias wrote:
> > Edmond Wollmann wrote:
> > There will be evidence in my upcoming book-the first Califonia highway
> > patrol convicted of violating a woman's civil rights (by murdering her)
> > came to me for astrological consulting regarding the case that was
> > eventually successfully prosecuted by the FBI.
> > Not only did I know he was capable of it by the chart but that he did it
> > by the same measures.
> Jim says,
> That isn't "evidence," Ed, that's post-hoc rationalizing. Can we turn
> these claims into a controlled test? One in which you don't know nor
> have any means by which to suspect the answers ahead of time, that is.
> Ed says,
> Just did that in this thread.
Pardon my "blinders" for having missed that, Ed. You aren't by any
chance referring to this highway patrolman, for which there were at
least clear a priori grounds for suspicion, do you?
Jim
Roger L. Satterlee
Jim,
It is possible Ed was refering to the chart of a convicted felon that I asked
him to look at.
"[..]Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in terms
of criminal acts?[..]
Ed, did not adress the first half of the question at all, and was vague on the
second part--giving no actual specifics.
However, when I described the situation of the subject, the thought very
highly of his reading of the chart. Thus he added 16 newage newsgroups to the header
so as to strut like a crowing peacock.
As, I said before, I have here a chart of a *documented* person who has never
been mentioned.
Ed, if you wishes to perform you analysis under these circumstances, it would
be much more appropriate to establish your claim and and an invaluable asset to both
you and your students, or even clients for that matter.
I, for one, think astrology has the potential of being established as a
type psychological phenomenon, perhaps with future applications in art therapy, and
possibly as an aid in helping to identify an unknown serial offenders by establishing a
general form an unconscious patterning of the individual offenders characteristic
behaviors--those which are now treated as "art" by the FBI's psychological profilers.
I truly think Ed has unique talents which can be of great help in the areas,
after he comes to grip with the natural limitations of astrology, and the extent to
which his pride has made him a slave to supernatural performances.
Sincerely,
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> "[..]Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in terms
> of criminal acts?[..]
To which Edmond Wollmann replied:
"a
profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
greatest."
To which Rog confirms;
> His crime amounts to paying three male teenage prostitutes for > consentual sex.
With no less than 30 seconds of analysis of this chart I have never seen
before in my life and a response to which I could have answered in
INFINITE ways as to what he had as far as a propensity for crime
committing.
And I assert, you cannot get any more specific or accurate in answering
your question. There is nothing left to discuss-cynics have been
answered, you have been answered, and you all will have to find a new
argument against the validity of astrology.
"Not a shred of evidence" has now been eliminated.
--
"Everyday is a winding road! I get a little bit closer..." Sheryle Crow
Douglas S. Caprette
In a previous article, bra...@erols.com (Brant Watson) says:
> Sorry I cut the whole message folks, but I wanted to say something
>independent of any specific remarks already made.
>
> Has anyone considered the legal implications of too widespread
>acceptance of astrology? For the time being, astrologers consider
>their interference in the lives of others to be anywhere from harmless
>to beneficial, so why not go ahead with this bogus art? Why not sell
>it hard and go for the gusto? Well, here's a reason you might
>consider:
>
> Picture a court case, (spousal abuse or even murder), where a
>defense attorney figures he can get a few jurors who believe in
>astrology. He bases his defense on the fact that the defendant was
>"destined" to commit the crime. He argues that it was an intractible
>part of his nature *and* unknown to him. The defendant was helpless
>to prevent the tragic outcome because his tendencies were dictated by
>the positions of the stars and planets at the time of his birth. Of
>course, it wouldn't be hard to come up with "expert" witnesses on the
>legitimacy of astrology. There would always be some who, for the
>right price, would be glad to assert that the defense had a valid
>claim.
>
> The jury, containing members who were selected by the defense
>because of their belief in astrology (or even their "openmindedness"),
>would become deadlocked. The defendant walks and an extremely
>dangerous precedent has been set.
>
When the jury is deadlocked the defendent does not 'walk'. He/she gets
a new trial and a new jury unless the prosecution eschews rep[rosecuting
the case.
> Now those of you who push astrology, I'd like to ask you a question:
>are you willing to accept responsibility for this kind of judgment?
>All it takes is one favorable set of conditions and the precedent has
>been set. It could literally destroy any semblance of justice in our
>court system.
Well, I'll let those who push astrology fend for themselves. For my
part, if I were on that jury and had to argue with someone who bought
the defense argument you present above I'd argue that as far as we know
the defendent is also destined to be convicted.
>
> We who oppose pseudoscience and, in the case of astrology, pure
>bunk, must remain steadfast and unapologetic in our attack of this
>utterly bogus form of superstition. We must call its proponents to
>task and we must do it loudly and confidently. In the meantime, we
>have to keep our ears to the ground and inform one another as soon as
>any court case is resolved by the use of astrology. I just hope there
>is some law which prevents the introduction of such defenses, like the
>"astral evidence" ruling following the Salem witch trials.
>
Can you tell us a little more about this? Though, I daresay I hope that
any precedence established at a witch trial carries little weight in
today's courts...
> Do not consider this scenario absurd. About a year ago, a defense
>attorney entered a plea of not guilty in a double murder case, on the
>grounds that extraterrestrial aliens mentally forced his client to
>commit the crimes. Remember, the defense does not have to prove its
>claim.
>Our problem has to do with reasonable doubt and I am deeply
>...
They do if the client is pleading any form of defense other than that
they in fact did not actually commit the actions that constitute the
crime. I.e. if pleading not guilty by reason of insanity the defense
must prove the defendent is (or was) insane. If pleading entrapment the
defense must prove that entrapment occurred. If pleading self-defense
the defense must prove that the legal requirements permitting self
defense were met. The standard of prove for an affirmative defense is
unclear (to me) probably not proof beyond reasonable doubt, but the
burden of proof for an affirmative defense _is_ on the defendent.
>... I am deeply
>concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who have any rational
>grasp of what constitutes reasonable doubt where the paranormal is
>involved. A cursory observation of these newsgroups provides more
>than adequate support for this concern.
>
Worth repeating.
--
DS Caprette
"There's a little truth in all jive, and a little jive in all truth."
-- Leonard Q. Barnes
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> > "[..]Here is a chart of a convicted felon: how would you rate this chart as to
> > a propensity for violence? What specifically might you expect from this man in terms
> > of criminal acts?[..]
>
> To which Edmond Wollmann replied:
>
> "a
> profound issue of control-sexual conflicts are the greatest and it is
> here I believe the crimes of seeking power over others would be
> greatest."
Elmira, NY, my hometown, has two prisons--a maxi prison, and the state's maxi-maxi
prison for canibals and such--not to mention a large county jail as well; too many residents
could fit your description, Ed.
*Ed, you could not even committ to saying whether or not the subject was violent.*
All tolled, your score is well below 50% concerning the questions I posed (not
challenged).
Anytime you would like, you may have a chance to save face by assessing a chart of a
documented person who is not *previously* described as anything, just annouce it to all the
newsgroups that you add to header *prior* to your decision to show off...:)
I am only being honest here...I would like to see astrologers do well, I haven't
doubted astrology's existence since 1970. You probably could do a good job without out a
prior knowledge of a conviction..if you would just calm down and try it. I have a chart
waitng for you, and you need not rely on my assessment--the man is documented.
>
> To which Rog confirms;
>
> > His crime amounts to paying three male teenage prostitutes for > consentual sex.
>
> With no less than 30 seconds of analysis of this chart I have never seen
> before in my life and a response to which I could have answered in
> INFINITE ways as to what he had as far as a propensity for crime
> committing.
> And I assert, you cannot get any more specific or accurate in answering
> your question. There is nothing left to discuss-cynics have been
> answered, you have been answered, and you all will have to find a new
> argument against the validity of astrology.
> "Not a shred of evidence" has now been eliminated.
> --
> "Everyday is a winding road! I get a little bit closer..." Sheryle Crow
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Now how many people would even be honest enough to treat you fairly, Ed?
Rog
Roger L. Satterlee
Douglas S. Caprette wrote:
>
> In a previous article, bra...@erols.com (Brant Watson) says:
>
> > Sorry I cut the whole message folks, but I wanted to say something
> >independent of any specific remarks already made.
> >
> > Has anyone considered the legal implications of too widespread
> >acceptance of astrology? For the time being, astrologers consider
> >their interference in the lives of others to be anywhere from harmless
> >to beneficial, so why not go ahead with this bogus art? Why not sell
> >it hard and go for the gusto? Well, here's a reason you might
> >consider:
Consider that Twinkies are just as *harmful*, or do you not remember the
case of the premeditated double murder in San Franciso's City Hall for which
Kevin White served only three years!
Ban Twinkies!...:)
> >... I am deeply
> >concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who have any rational
> >grasp of what constitutes reasonable doubt where the paranormal is
> >involved. A cursory observation of these newsgroups provides more
> >than adequate support for this concern.
> >
>
> Worth repeating.
>
> --
> DS Caprette
> "There's a little truth in all jive, and a little jive in all truth."
> -- Leonard Q. Barnes
Rog
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
<SNIP>
Thank you Rog, I have won several bets on your behavior.
Best to you in your future endeavors. I am sure there are others who are
insecure enough to think you are being honest. Use them in your "tests."
If you can muster enough self worth and dignity to say "well that was
pretty good, HOW did you do that?" I will be glad to explain-for
everyone else, I will explain how without such conditions if they are so
inclined and interested-I did not do that on purpose when I read it.
Thanks,
Ed
--
"What you think of yourself is much more important than what others
think of you." Seneca, 64 A. D.
Edmond Wollmann
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> EWollmann wrote:
> > Edmond says,
> > Its astrology Rog, and you obviously know nothing of it. You will never
> > achieve your obsession for status without real work and application
> > demonstration-all this attacking and derogation of those you feel the
> > threat, only allows your true intentions to be revealed-to others at
> > least, I knew them from the beginning.
> > Clean up your act.
Well I see you cut out the part where you were complaining about how
dispositorships (a part of astrological delineation) was some sort of
waxed cards effect. Typical, thats what I was responding to.
> Ed,
> Astrology cannot be used to redefine the universe,
Anything can be used to redefine anything.
> but it has a good
> application as a symbolic art form-
Now I want everyone to critically assess these contradictory posts that
Roger has repeatedly posted. Here he argues that it is an art form-of
course I believe and agree with him on this part. But....
>-a parallel expression of what people say and
> do. Rather than trying to give complicated reasons, rationalizations, for one's
> behavior, it is simply helpful to notice who uses the words "fear", and "threat"
> and "obsession", and "status", and "power", etc., then look at the chart of that
> person to see if s/he is expressing their own unconscious contents.
This is simple psychology Roger-like I told you about using the words
"ejaculation" "orafice" and other words you use often that are
revealing-is that what you mean?:-)
> Eventually
> this study will probably lead to being able to form natal chart patterns from the
> cues found in the form of language.
Then why have the chart? You are just incompetant in reading it. This is
really unnecessary and an illusion because you are filtering perceptions
through your consciousness that is biased with your own beliefs and
colored with your versions (please see my post on Discernment vs
Projection). The chart since it is based upon ones true vibrational
reflection does not have to contain this bias, and if the interpreter is
astute, accuracy can be great.
> I have no need of status; it seems that this is hard for you to
Not possible, everyone has a need for status. You are a Leo, Moon in
Capricorn, Aries ascending-if I remember correctly, this reflects a
strong need for status. In your case you are insecure about your mental
capabilities and seek social reinforcement to validate them. But later
in this post you reveal a gigantic conflict in you consciousness-you try
to speak art and demand science (Saturn in Virgo). What happens is that
you are not really functional in either because in trying to balance you
find it difficult to discern when each is applicable. You say "art form"
and then say we need to be more objective. Interpreting art is
subjective.
>understand,
> but I think astrology's status could be enhanced by the introduction of
> objectivity.
This is why I find other paradigms helpful-like logic. Here you assume
because you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel-that the rest of us
lack objectivity. Please read my post on "Intution and Intellect" it is
a dimension-two ends of the same field.
> If astologers will make the effort to become more objective about
> themselves there is a hope astrology will become more a valid psychological
> phenomenon with the beginnings of objective measures.
Here's what I mean, because you are trying to be accepted by the
scientific community (Mars in Libra)-art suddenly loses validity unless
we apply some "objective measures". You are incapable of recognizing
that Saturn in Virgo in 6 is what restricts you from being able to
interpret the "art" of astrology because of this tremendous fear of
functional inadequacy if you don't dot every i and cross every t. So
this is the contradiction in thinking I wished to point out. If you
don't trust either art or science as being SUPPORTIVE of each other
(subjective and objective as well) then they will never "work" together,
and this is your achilles heel. Consequently, you mix apples and oranges
and say they are both valid and invalid at the same time. Please read my
article entitled "The Saturn/Neptune Paradox".
> You have nothing to fear by placing your birth data in your signature so
> all may see the reference point you have, and will not harm anyone to see that
> their own best attempts at logic are often nonobjective abstract
> expressionism--psychic contents try to find words and images that are somehow
> similar to the "self" but not the "self".
You are the reality you "believe" you exist within. Your consciousness
is not "in" your body, but your body moves through and is "in" your
consciousness-so yes it is you. You have a very debilitating mix there,
don't you see? It makes no sense Rog. "attempts at logic are often
nonobjective abstract expressionism--"
If we apply linguistics to your own expression, then this reveals that
what I have discerned about you is indeed true. You teach best what you
are learning of course.
> As to my indulging in derogation, you are very adept at attracting negative
> energy as you call it, it is very difficult at times for me to remember you are
> just lashing out at the world in general. So, is astrology useful in terms of the
> aggression and domestic violence we see here on our board?
I fail to see how accurate discernment is negative energy-of course I
can see how individuals such as yourself presenting "mask or false face
persona" don't like being confronted in a Plutonian way for your chosen
perspectives-and having to incorporate repressed beliefs into the
conscious mind (positive energy I am afraid-is inclusive) it is just
fear and quite natural because you are taught to resist insight and seek
social comparisons (especially with Mars so placed) and identity
reinforcement. Don't rock the boat or you may not be accepted-further
reflection of the contradictory nature of "Rog".
--
.."but the idea many times of the reasons that those fears occur in your
society, when you are interacting with beings from other societies in
that way, no matter what level you are interacting with them, the reason
that many of those fears occur is because-let us say-and again in no
way, shape, or form, is this meant to be a comparative judgement that
you are any less than any other being. But the way you create yourselves
to be, the way you have been taught to think of yourselves, creates
within you the ability to hide and suppress many portions of your
consciousness from yourselves, and in doing so you function on a lower
vibratory frequency very often. When you come in contact with a being
that operates on a very high vibratory frequency because it is willing
to know itself as completely as it can, then those two frequencies when
they come together, will usually create the effect of the higher
frequency in a sense overwhelming the lower frequency, and forcing the
lower frequency to rise in pitch. In forcing the lower frequency to
raise in pitch, that will bring to the surface all the things that you
have been keeping buried within you, and bringing those things to the
surface when you are not ready to face them, can be a very fearful
experience for many of you. That is where the fear comes from." Bashar
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Thank you Rog, I have won several bets on your behavior.
I was raised by people who consider betting a an undesirable social practice,
which only begets bad feelings. Successful betting is like successful combat--one waits
for the opportunity to murder one's sleeping opponents...That's how winning is
accomplished, and I think the whole process of advocacy is little else but a necessary
evi--applicable only to those times when one choses to destroy another person in part or
in whole. The destruction of another is not my purpose, though I am as subject to
emtional responses and unproductive verbage as anyone else. I say I'm willing to bet you
can do better--this is how I think the assertive urge to *bet* is more appropriately
socialized.
> Best to you in your future endeavors. I am sure there are others who are
> insecure enough to think you are being honest. Use them in your "tests."
> If you can muster enough self worth and dignity to say "well that was
> pretty good, HOW did you do that?" I will be glad to explain-for
> everyone else, I will explain how without such conditions if they are so
> inclined and interested-I did not do that on purpose when I read it.
I have been an astrologist (ad nauseum at times) for more than a quarter century.
I would say that I'm a little slower to understand, to accept, and even to remember many
things unique to any discipline with an extensive, novel vocabulary. However, your
reading of the chart in question was more like a rather basic approach to describing a
Leo with an *afflicted* Venus on the Asc: first year, cookbook astrologists would most
likely read/say, " unusal, unorthodox, unpredicable, erratic, or anti-authoritarian", for
the planet Uranus here, and being that Uranus is conjunct Venus* and that the subject is
already defined as a convicted felon*, your logic could be reproduced by some of the
least experienced astrologists. Even longtime practicioners, say, Pete Stapleton for
instance, has written repeatedly, that Ven/Ura is responsible for homosexuality and or
sexual deviance--not that I agree with him in the least, but this is a commonly occuring
propositon on alt.astrology.
The subject of this thread concerns the possible ability or inability of
astrology to help one to discern something about a subject's potential for aggression an
violence. This is the reason I used this chart, I wanted to tap your experience for any
ideas which would help guide the formation of any appropriate hypotheses to be pursued in
the event that a comparison were ever attempted between a natal chart and the
results of standardized psychological instruments, like the MMPI, and the more recent
forms of such instruments one will find disucussed at length on the PSYLAW mailist by
professionals currently working with the courts as expert witnesses, and as conselors
involved with sentencing recommendations submitted to the courts by parole officers.
This promising discussion which has unfortunately degraded to yet another case of
ego-defensive vaguery, worthy of any skeptic's laughing scorn, leaves *any* observer with
two self-evident conclusions.
1) Ed Wollmann *never* directly addressed the question of *aggression and
violence*.
2) Ed Wollmann *never* attempted to describe a *specific criminal act*.
> Thanks,
> Ed
> --
> "What you think of yourself is much more important than what others
> think of you." Seneca, 64 A. D.
> --
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
I will be an astrologist to the day I die, but I will never neglect of
purposely distort simple facts for the sake of wooing either the astrologers or the
skeptical psychologists on whom I depend for the information necessary to the furthering
of my education. I am an amatuer--I love what I study simply because it exists, and for
no other reason.
For the record, I think Ed Wollmann has the intelligence, the education, and
perhaps an unprecedented amount of drive and an indispensable native talent, which I
readily recognize. In as much as it is the Taurus function to *ingest* the available
materials, it is the native role of Leo to *digest* them--make them suitable for their
subsequent analysis and absorbtion. In my idealistic perception of natural order, it is
only logical that whatever I recieve from ED Wollman, should leave my care in a form
suitable to the Virgo's like Lee Lehman and Liz Greene. In this perspective one might
say a jump from Taurus to Leo seems to skip two phases or steps (Gemini & Cancer), but
the psyche's reality seems like the anatomical body wherein the mouth is connected to the
stomach only by those who repesent the symbolic equivalent to swallowing. Ed, the
*swallower's* are quite naturally the target recipients of your output--this too is
astrology.
atlantis
Hello,
Sorry that I sent this message to so many groups. Please do not be
upset. I have a new web site started "The Atlantis Project". THe
purpose of the site is to present up to date information on alternative
sciences outside the mainstream. The site is new so there isn't much
there right now.
I ask that all please take a look at the site and give me feedback and
feel free to contribute articles and information you feel appropriate.
We can make it a productive information site if we all contribute.
Please post the URL around so we can build some traffic. If you have
your own web site, please put the banner that is on the page up on your
site if you can. Please link it to the following URL.
THank you for your time.
<http://members.tripod.com/~atlantis_project/index.html>
email me here:
Brant Watson
On Wed, 21 May 1997 14:31:57 -0600, Jim Rogers
<jfr@fc{Remove/NoJunkMail}.hp.com> wrote:
<snip>
>That isn't "evidence," Ed, that's post-hoc rationalizing. Can we turn
>these claims into a controlled test? One in which you don't know nor
>have any means by which to suspect the answers ahead of time, that is.
Check my posts to Ed on 5/26, in this thread. You'll find one where
I propose a procedure. Perhaps we could collaborate.
Brant
Brant Watson
>Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
<snip>
>> Ed, I did not ask you *IF* the man was a convicted felon--this was a given; I see
>> no "proof of astrology" and so forth.
>
>Of course you don't. You are cynical, egotistical and have no intention
>of seeking truth. The post however speaks for itself-I could have said
>an infinite array of things-other than the exact and correct
>delineation. Figure out the z-score and P value statistically on the
>probability of my doing that with an alpha of .05 (standard). Mr.
>scientists.
As most of your descriptions were about as specific and measurable
as a typical Nostradamus quattrain, how in the world would one go
about using any kind of statistical analysis? The accuracy of most of
your statements is virtually unassessable.
A much better test would be one which has unambiguous results, for
example, matching observed dominant personality characteristics of
certain individuals with their charts. Since it appears you have also
claimed that you can describe certain key events at specific times in
a person's life, this would suggest an even better test. The test
would list ten birth dates and ten significant events of a personal
nature and the dates on which they occurred. Then you match them.
This would lend itself to good statistical analysis.
Can you do that? Events would include things like marriage,
divorce, attempted suicide, committing a crime, (like domestic
violence), switching careers, nervous breakdown, making an important
discovery or invention, coming out of the closet, making a major
investment, and any others you think you can pin down.
(My thousand dollar offer still stands.)
Brant
Roger L. Satterlee
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
>
> Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
>
> > EWollmann wrote:
>
> > > Edmond says,
> > > Its astrology Rog, and you obviously know nothing of it. You will never
> > > achieve your obsession for status without real work and application
> > > demonstration-all this attacking and derogation of those you feel the
> > > threat, only allows your true intentions to be revealed-to others at
> > > least, I knew them from the beginning.
> > > Clean up your act.
All you could reasonably say is that "from the beginning" I informed you that we
have something in common which I find stressful...I have a close opposition of the
Moon/Uranus in my natal chart from Capricorn to Camcer, I find this aspect symbolic of
the stress I place upon myself to master things I attempt: was I wrong to assume you had
something like this in your chart? Do you have an aspect like this? Do you have the Moon
in Capricorn opposite Uranus in Cancer?
>
> Well I see you cut out the part where you were complaining about how
> dispositorships (a part of astrological delineation) was some sort of
> waxed cards effect. Typical, thats what I was responding to.
Horary is interesting too; but like the dubious razzle-dazzle of rulerships and
dispositors, midpoints, etc., etc., Horary and things like it should probably not be
applied to natal charts in the name of psychological inquiry--thses are less and less
objective and more projective of the readers personal biases.
>
> > Ed,
> > Astrology cannot be used to redefine the universe,
>
> Anything can be used to redefine anything.
>
> > but it has a good
> > application as a symbolic art form-
>
> Now I want everyone to critically assess these contradictory posts that
> Roger has repeatedly posted. Here he argues that it is an art form-of
> course I believe and agree with him on this part. But....
>
> >-a parallel expression of what people say and
> > do. Rather than trying to give complicated reasons, rationalizations, for one's
> > behavior, it is simply helpful to notice who uses the words "fear", and "threat"
> > and "obsession", and "status", and "power", etc., then look at the chart of that
> > person to see if s/he is expressing their own unconscious contents.
People express their prefferences for certain words and phases--this does not
mean I assume the words to have any usable meaning. Some people use words familiar to us
, but only a fool could say with scertainty what the speaker means in term of an
unconscious purpose for chosing those words.
Non-judgemental *observation* is simply a necessary step. You see we agree; no
judgemental process need apply to collecting data which merely signifies the presence of
an individual speaker. Somewhat like facial features, writing merely helps us
to indentify the writer, where as the meaning of one's face may not be understood without
some creative expression being offered--probably on many occasions.
> This is simple psychology Roger-like I told you about using the words
> "ejaculation" "orafice" and other words you use often that are
> revealing-is that what you mean?:-)
I selected those keywords partly as they are representative of my pattern of
preference for certain words and phrases and partly because I was targeting the
Taurus/Scoprio opposition common to the human psyche--we are but *tubes* with an orafice
on either end Taurus *mouth* and Sorpio *anus*....If a person were to have the natal Sun
in Taurus and say Saturn opposite in Scorpio, one might expect a resonance to occur upon
hearing such a phrase. Yes, I chose it for effect.
The word "ejaculate", meaning to spew forth-usually from a body, has a
metaphorical resonance with me--I have Mars conj Neptune in Libra, the relating sign, and
this near H7--I see the image of emotional words and phrases spewed forth as appropriate
to my observation of your posts which often seem like an untended garden hose.
>
> > Eventually
> > this study will probably lead to being able to form natal chart patterns from the
> > cues found in the form of language.
>
> Then why have the chart? You are just incompetant in reading it. This is
> really unnecessary and an illusion because you are filtering perceptions
> through your consciousness that is biased with your own beliefs and
> colored with your versions (please see my post on Discernment vs
> Projection). The chart since it is based upon ones true vibrational
> reflection does not have to contain this bias, and if the interpreter is
> astute, accuracy can be great.
You will find that while your vocabulary and reading are quite extensive, it
appears that starting over from scratch would enable you to re-examine the more overt
things that people do to express themselves in more Jungian than Freudian symbols.
Please look at a painting by Frida Kahlo at:
http://www.geocities/Athens/7406/kahlo_1.html
This self-portrait I believe was something she produced while recouperating from
a severe physical truama--it was therapy for her. Does it seem that the painting is to
Frida Kahlo what astrology is to others?
You will see that she express her natal planets in Cancer as vines eminating from
her chest, and a large rock (Saturn) where her (Pisces) feet are or least should be.
To say we can know what the painting or the natal chart *means* without comparing
one to another is a form of neglect on the part of a psychological astrologer.
It is objective to OBSERVE art--interpretation is not necessarilly in anyone
grasp at a given time, if ever. But if you don't look at Kahlo's painting and her chart,
what have you to say of my observations?
>
> > I have no need of status; it seems that this is hard for you to
>
> Not possible, everyone has a need for status. You are a Leo, Moon in
> Capricorn, Aries ascending-if I remember correctly, this reflects a
> strong need for status.
I have had my fifteen minutes of fame thanks--I find personal investments in the
name of status have very diminishing returns for me personally--it may be different for
others, and apparently is..
In your case you are insecure about your mental
> capabilities and seek social reinforcement to validate them. But later
> in this post you reveal a gigantic conflict in you consciousness-you try
> to speak art and demand science (Saturn in Virgo). What happens is that
> you are not really functional in either because in trying to balance you
> find it difficult to discern when each is applicable. You say "art form"
> and then say we need to be more objective. Interpreting art is
> subjective.
When all the science is temporaily *done*, a thing becomes the *state of the
art*. Art takes over quite naturally---there are no target sighting devices on the
most scientifically developed golf balls.
This last statement "Interpreting art is subjective." begs the question, "Can
interpreting art be less subjective? Does astrologies natal chart aid the observer in
being less subjective? Ed, do you have a well considered and informed opinion concerning
the answer to this question? Does Kahlo's painting seem more like the Sidereal set of
assosiations or more like the Tropical assumptions. Where does the painting seem less
representative of the natal chart? Does being forced by convention to draw recognizable
objects in convention perspectives seem to detract from the painter's attempt at "self"
portraiture? Does too much abstraction on the part of some painters have the same effect
of limiting "self" expression?
What is your meaning of status? I mean I don't need to be recognized as a guru or
even as a significant astrologer. I am not at all comfortable with having to be a
spokesman for astrology as art, I dislike counseling, I have no material interests to
forward. It does seem that it would be an unfogivable negligence on my part to not
inform astrologers of what I have found after 25 years of making observations. My
attempts at writing on this board are a means to my self-improvement and my
contribution to astrology to which I owe much: the fact that the astrological world is
largely not interested in a form of astrology which does not promise power, or money, or
even a ticket to heaven, is somewhat of an obstacle at times.
>
> >understand,
> > but I think astrology's status could be enhanced by the introduction of
> > objectivity.
>
> This is why I find other paradigms helpful-like logic. Here you assume
> because you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel-that the rest of us
> lack objectivity. Please read my post on "Intution and Intellect" it is
> a dimension-two ends of the same field.
>
<snip>
Sorry, I don't have enough time to complete a response to the whole of this post
at this time...I have company to cook for...:)
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Lili4love
In brant's usual pedantic style he wrote:
>That isn't "evidence," Ed, that's post-hoc rationalizing. Can we turn
>these claims into a controlled test? One in which you don't know nor
>have any means by which to suspect the answers ahead of time, that is.
lili writes:
Brant? HELLO?
Ed is rational izing (key here is "rational")??? but you proposal is
absurd... i mean i'm on the floor laughing through your idea of
"controlled" study....,
Dr. Brant proposes:
the following design....
2 groups (i'll keep the design simple, Bran)
Group A is instructed (and obeys instruction) told to murder
Group B gets placebo
Independent variable = murderers vs non-murderers (i.e. placebo takers)
Dependent variable = the ability to accurately match subjects to groups
(i.e. those instructed to murder vs. those instructed to swallow sugar
pill).
YUP!!! this study is going to FLY right by the ETHICS COMMITTEE!!
earth to brant...
1- pick up research and ethics book... your proposed "controlled" studies
would never be approved, and are therefore YOUR COMMENTS are post-hoc ad
nauseum redundant pseudo-scientific gibberish... wake up!!!
2-refrain from prattle pertaining to scientific methodology...you really
weaken your argument by demonstrating NO understanding of your subject
matter.
3- have a lovely day. :-o
peace,
lili
Roger L. Satterlee
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
Get out the wet noodle--I have committed yet another typo...:)
Corrected URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406/kahlo_1.html
>
> Please look at a painting by Frida Kahlo (and her chart) at:
> http://www.geocities/Athens/7406/kahlo_1.html
Roger L. Satterlee
Rog wrote:
"[..]Eventually this study will probably lead to being able to form natal chart
patterns from the cues found in the form of language.[..]"
Edmond Wollmann wrote:
"[..]Then why have the chart? You are just incompetant in reading it. This is
really unnecessary and an illusion because you are filtering perceptions
through your consciousness that is biased with your own beliefs and
colored with your versions (please see my post on Discernment vs
Projection). The chart since it is based upon ones true vibrational
reflection does not have to contain this bias, and if the interpreter is
astute, accuracy can be great.[..]"
You, Ed, might as well not have a chart, as I see no evidence that you are
willing to employ it as a basis for your own understanding of why you are attracted
too the topics you like, or how the pattern of you chart is expressed like a
signal--a signiture--a formula for your self-expression--the very thing which
identifies you--that which you cannot change even though you say you can change it at
will.
I assume *all* astrologers are incompetant in reading charts--the specifics
of a particular person's like's and dislikes, etc., are just not there to be read. I
have not been impressed by *any* astrologers predictive capabilities nor by their
various hare-brained rationalizations claiming psychological insights ostensibly
pertaining to an individual. I question as to why astrologers feel the need to *read*
charts--the act itself seems merely as a means to an entertaining performance--the
chart but a script outline of sorts.
Astrology's best quality is it's ability to aid the native in seeing that
there is a pattern to their own *individual* behavior--and that pattern persists
becuase it is more the act of, or a product of, nature, and not one's more arbitary
attempts self-creation: discovering the limits of randomness in one's behavior is
more informative and more self-empowering than any *readers* concoted lists of
hypothetically-possible transformations.
> Edmond H. Wollmann P.M.A.F.A.
> © 1997 Altair Publications
> http://home.aol.com/ewollmann
Brant Watson
>Douglas S. Caprette wrote:
>>
>> In a previous article, bra...@erols.com (Brant Watson) says:
>>
>> > Sorry I cut the whole message folks, but I wanted to say something
>> >independent of any specific remarks already made.
>> >
>> > Has anyone considered the legal implications of too widespread
>> >acceptance of astrology? For the time being, astrologers consider
>> >their interference in the lives of others to be anywhere from harmless
>> >to beneficial, so why not go ahead with this bogus art? Why not sell
>> >it hard and go for the gusto? Well, here's a reason you might
>> >consider:
>
> Consider that Twinkies are just as *harmful*, or do you not remember the
>case of the premeditated double murder in San Franciso's City Hall for which
>Kevin White served only three years!
I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense out of this analogy. I don't
remember the case offhand. Did Twinkies have something to do with it?
Was the man given a lighter sentence because a jury believed Twinkies
made him do it? If so, then this supports *my* argument.
> Ban Twinkies!...:)
Unlike astrology, Twinkies have been shown to be harmless, compared
to other snacks. And you can bet before they went on the market, they
had to get FDA approval. Pseudoscience takes another route. It
places its principles above or beyond scientific/rational inquiry, or
it claims scientific validation when none exists. More and more
people are buying into this nonsense.
>
>> >... I am deeply
>> >concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who have any rational
>> >grasp of what constitutes reasonable doubt where the paranormal is
>> >involved. A cursory observation of these newsgroups provides more
>> >than adequate support for this concern.
>> >
>>
>> Worth repeating.
>>
>> --
>> DS Caprette
>> "There's a little truth in all jive, and a little jive in all truth."
>> -- Leonard Q. Barnes
>
Brant Watson
On 23 May 1997 23:23:02 GMT, au...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Douglas S.
Caprette) wrote:
<snip>
>
>When the jury is deadlocked the defendent does not 'walk'. He/she gets
>a new trial and a new jury unless the prosecution eschews rep[rosecuting
>the case.
Okay, so in the intervening months? If it makes anybody feel better,
I'll ask then, What if the jury finds him *not guilty*...and then he
walks?
>> Now those of you who push astrology, I'd like to ask you a question:
>>are you willing to accept responsibility for this kind of judgment?
>>All it takes is one favorable set of conditions and the precedent has
>>been set. It could literally destroy any semblance of justice in our
>>court system.
>
>Well, I'll let those who push astrology fend for themselves. For my
>part, if I were on that jury and had to argue with someone who bought
>the defense argument you present above I'd argue that as far as we know
>the defendent is also destined to be convicted.
*You* might argue that. *I* might. But others would argue that this
was society's fault for not intervening, for not recognizing that he
would commit a crime. It wasn't his fault. It was a contition he was
born with. An interesting comparison would be the cases which have
involved the XYY genetic anomaly defense. I think it has been ruled
that it is no longer a valid defese, but I wonder how many bad guys
walked because of it.
The more legitimate astrology becomes, in this age of unbridled
credulity in the name of "openmindedness," the more likely it will
find legal precedent in court. Salesmanship and aloofness from true
scientific validation, aided by a pervasive pro-paranormal media can
mislead millions of people, several of which might end up on a jury.
I don't want to see that happen. Astrologers are now pretending to be
able to use astrology in matters as serious as domestic violence.
>>
>> We who oppose pseudoscience and, in the case of astrology, pure
>>bunk, must remain steadfast and unapologetic in our attack of this
>>utterly bogus form of superstition. We must call its proponents to
>>task and we must do it loudly and confidently. In the meantime, we
>>have to keep our ears to the ground and inform one another as soon as
>>any court case is resolved by the use of astrology. I just hope there
>>is some law which prevents the introduction of such defenses, like the
>>"astral evidence" ruling following the Salem witch trials.
>>
>
>Can you tell us a little more about this? Though, I daresay I hope that
>any precedence established at a witch trial carries little weight in
>today's courts...
All I know is that the state of Massachussetts disallowed astral
evidence as this was the sole evidence against, what was it, 23
innocent people who lost their lives? Apparently, at the time someone
could be convicted because a little girl had tantrums and visions.
This kind of evidence was disallowed after the tragedy.
>> Do not consider this scenario absurd. About a year ago, a defense
>>attorney entered a plea of not guilty in a double murder case, on the
>>grounds that extraterrestrial aliens mentally forced his client to
>>commit the crimes. Remember, the defense does not have to prove its
>>claim.
>>Our problem has to do with reasonable doubt and I am deeply
>>...
>
>They do if the client is pleading any form of defense other than that
>they in fact did not actually commit the actions that constitute the
>crime. I.e. if pleading not guilty by reason of insanity the defense
>must prove the defendent is (or was) insane. If pleading entrapment the
>defense must prove that entrapment occurred. If pleading self-defense
>the defense must prove that the legal requirements permitting self
>defense were met. The standard of prove for an affirmative defense is
>unclear (to me) probably not proof beyond reasonable doubt, but the
>burden of proof for an affirmative defense _is_ on the defendent.
Okay, thanks. If this is the case, then it would make an astrological
plea more difficult, but how many times have we seen an insanity
defense supported simply because of the word of certain "experts"?
Also, the OJ defense didn't have to prove the conspiracy claims
against the police.
Brant Watson
>Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
<snip>
>> I have no need of status; it seems that this is hard for you to
>
>Not possible, everyone has a need for status. You are a Leo, Moon in
>Capricorn, Aries ascending-if I remember correctly, this reflects a
>strong need for status.
Since you just said everyone has a need for status, why did you
bother mentioning the particulars of his chart?
>In your case you are insecure about your mental
>capabilities and seek social reinforcement to validate them.
Ah, another fine example of the unbridled bigotry that astrologers
indulge in. It is mitigated somewhat by the fact that the statement
applies to just about everyone, in varying degrees...another common
characteristic of astrological profiling.
<snip>
Brant
Roger L. Satterlee
If you don't remember the famous Twinkie defense, I don't think
it is worth trying to descibe the nonsense....:)
Rog
>
> >
> >> >... I am deeply
> >> >concerned that there are fewer and fewer people who have any rational
> >> >grasp of what constitutes reasonable doubt where the paranormal is
> >> >involved. A cursory observation of these newsgroups provides more
> >> >than adequate support for this concern.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Worth repeating.
> >>
> >> --
> >> DS Caprette
> >> "There's a little truth in all jive, and a little jive in all truth."
> >> -- Leonard Q. Barnes
> >
Avital Pilpel
Roger L. Satterlee wrote:
> If you don't remember the famous Twinkie defense, I don't think
> it is worth trying to descibe the nonsense....:)
>
> 11:53pm EDT 26Jul50 Elmira, NY 076W48 42N06
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406
Was that a _real_ defense? Well, it is at least _concievable_
cientifically that a certain twinkie eaten by a certain person had (say)
a certain drug in it that caused a certain hallucination...
In the case of astrology, even _this_ does not exist.
--
Avital Pilpel.
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The majority is never right.
-Lazarus Long
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