Who got the biggest screw job in DCI History?
Patrick M. Zampetti, AIA
SCOTT36104 wrote:
>
> Okay all you whiners and complainers, here's your chance. What drum corps
> do you think got the biggest screw job in DCI History? Let's hear it and
> tell why....
'76 Garfield Cadets...beat Schaumberg by more than 10 points days before
and lost to them in prelims ending up out of finals in 14th. I need
some other Alums to fill in the exact details. Cadets were the first
Corps to break 80 in the country that year. Also, I think Bayonne
placed 6th that year and Cadets were not far behind the "bombers" all
season. I didn't march with them until '77 but the rumor is that they
just didn't tour enough and DCI didn't like it. Bob Dubinski, are you
out there? Please fill in the details.
z
SCOTT36104
Fieldpaint
Boston in either '89 or '90 (I think) was in 10th after quarters and
dropped out of the top twelve in semis. 10th!!!
Dash Fieldpaint
SkyRyder29
>Okay all you whiners and complainers, here's your chance. What drum corps
>do you think got the biggest screw job in DCI History? Let's hear it and
>tell why....
>
>
1986 27th Lancers. 27's performance at semi's was rock solid. The
Troopers on the other hand blew chow in semi's. They were good enough to
be in top 12; however, the performance they had in semi's was not
deserving of the 12th place spot they received in semi's.
While Troopers were a better drum corps, 27 out performed them and
deserved a finalist spot.
Tim Kviz
Sky Ryders 85-88
Various Otjhers 78-84
William Scott Spicer
Hmmmmm....Biggest screw job in DCI.
My vote goes too the Cavies in
'90
'91
Dan Acheson said that the show was the most entertaining in DCI
history. DCI finally gave it to them in '92.
THREE-PEAT BABY!!!!!(should have been)
Spicer
DixieD5
>My asshole is this big because of...." Dan Truit
My condolonces to your asshole...
Fred Hedemark
If you can put that, I'll say that Star should have won 1990-1993.....
FOUR-PEAT BABY!!!!!!!!
-Woobie
Cochese472
>the 95 Scouts,they were the best corps on the field finals
come on now, your not even trying are you? one word, dirty
GirlInToon
This one is easy..................THE FANS AND CORPS MEMBERS WITHOUT A
HOME! even though we are treated every summer to great corps we are also
being "screwed" by the corps we miss seeing, (who, in some cases, have
left members out to dry). Not by the actual corps themselves but to the
powers that be and eat up all the lost souls. to all the corps who have
folded, disbanded or gone inactive.....the activity misses you but you
will be remembered fondly. Just my two cents.....................
Drums1979
>come on now, your not even trying are you? one word, dirty
>
Dirty?!?! The Mad Men were excellent brass wise, and their visual program
was almost just as good. their drumline wasn't as clean as the rest of the
bunch, but they weren't dirty enough to put the whole corps in 4th.
Drums1979
Steve Sorrell
spi...@ix.netcom.com(William Scott Spicer) wrote:
>Hmmmmm....Biggest screw job in DCI.
>My vote goes too the Cavies in
>'90
>'91
>Dan Acheson said that the show was the most entertaining in DCI
>history. DCI finally gave it to them in '92.
It might have been entertaining to him, but...
RDeschene
On 22 Aug 1997 02:41:07 GMT, scott...@aol.com (SCOTT36104) wrote:
>Okay all you whiners and complainers, here's your chance. What drum corps
>do you think got the biggest screw job in DCI History? Let's hear it and
>tell why....
1980 27th Lancers. They came in second that year to Blue Devils, and
while I love that BD show, IMHO Two-Seven's show was far more
difficult, and they executed it more cleanly, than BD did theirs.
Two-Seven's show that year was so incredibly innovative, it was one
for the ages. Too bad it couldn't win them their first DCI title.
Sue
Kevin M.Torres
> As for the gentleman who said BD got screwed in 1996....grow up. You won, so quit whining. Your show was clean but BORING! That's why PR tied you- their show was emotional and entertaining, and their brass FAR outclassed you.
> Harry Baer IV
> Westshoremen '96, '97
> 1996 DCA CHAMPS!!!
> http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/7828
--
Cool off man.
Kevin Torres
South Cobb High School Marching Instructor 1996, 1997
Blue Devils 1984, 1986 Flugel
and Micki Torres
Wife of Kevin Torres 1990-present
ChiBoyinLA
Santa Clara 1987
...they won horns
...they won marching
...they won GE
...they were second in drums
But, because Cadets scored perfect tens in all three percussion captions
(GE, Ensemble & Execution) - a questionable feat no matter how awesome
they were - they were able to edge SCV by 0.1 to take the title.
This is not meant to take away from Cadets' show, which was one of their
best ever, and which was one of the best shows ever in DCI history, IMHO.
I just feel that a 0.5 spread in drums was WAY to big (SCV drums were
excellent), and that large spread was the only reason why Cadets won.
Joel Knull
Man I could go on and on!
1992 Glassmen - They were definitely very clean, but I think peaked to early
and thats why they took 13th that year. Freelancers were good, but were very
dirty. Love the music to this show!
1989 Cadets of BC - Awesome drumline and some great visuals this year!
Hornline was alittle weak, but they still shoulda been top 3 that year. Yet
top 2!
1990 Cavaliers - If there was any year they shoulda won it shoulda been this
year! Awesome Drumline and probably the coolest Drumsolo I have ever seen in
my life!
1993 Star of Indiana - Sorry flame me for this one! But I thought they shoulda
deserved it! They were so clean it was scary! They got hosed in Field Visual
(took like 5th, after winning it in quarters) and thats what lost it for them!
1988 SCV - If there was any year they shoulda won with Phantom it was this
year, the emotion was definitely pouring out this year. And everytime I hear
the end of this show it just makes me wanna cry! GE! GE! GE!
1996 Cadets of BC - Man this was one kicka** show! Loved it from top to bottom!
1990 SCV - Shoulda placed higher than 6th! Hornline was really clean, and the
drumline rocked as usual. All the corps were really tight that year (something
like 2 1/2 pts from 6th to 1st), but I thought SCV shoulda been better than
6th that year.
1987 Phantom Regiment - this is my all time favorite Phantom Regiment show,
and they got hosed badly! This was definitely a top 3 show, another ending
which just gives me goosebumps everytime I listen to it!
thats about all I can think about for now, If I figure out more later Ill post!
Joel K.
Drums1979
>Star was good in 1990, but not good enough... 1991...sure.
>1992... maybe...
>1993 was not drum corps.
Star 90....good, but not good enough
Star 91....GREAT
Star 92....no
Star 93....YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<orgasm>>..........This was DEFINATELY Drum
Corps.
Drums1979
Alex Jarvis
--WebTV-Mail-943746031-3500
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EASY NO CONTEST!!! 1993 Star of Indiana the biggest rape in DCI
history!!!
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Robert Brown
81 Blue Devils.
2nd by .3 with a 2pt deficit in drums.
RB
SCOTT36104 <scott...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970822024...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Barry N. York
Alex Jarvis wrote:
>
> EASY NO CONTEST!!! 1993 Star of Indiana the biggest rape in DCI
> history!!!
>
> [Image]Alex
>
> "I just want to live happily ever after, every now and then" ~ Jimmy
> Buffett
NO, the corps(pl) that placed below Star 1993 got raped.
Barry
Scott Gordon
In article <19970822034...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
skyry...@aol.com (SkyRyder29) wrote:
> 1986 27th Lancers. 27's performance at semi's was rock solid. The
> Troopers on the other hand blew chow in semi's. They were good enough to
> be in top 12; however, the performance they had in semi's was not
> deserving of the 12th place spot they received in semi's.
> While Troopers were a better drum corps, 27 out performed them and
> deserved a finalist spot.
As I remember it, 27 *was* better than Troopers that year... BUT...
the corps that *really* should have made finals was Les Eclipse!
I had Les Eclipse in 12th, 27 in 13th, and Troop in 14th. IMHO!
Scott
--
Vahl Scott Gordon
Assistant Professor O/ o~ o_O/
Dept of Computer Science o/| _______|_______ \
Sonoma State University / \ | | |\
LipsNdev96
>As for the gentleman who said BD got screwed in 1996....grow up. You won,
>so quit whining. Your show was clean but BORING! That's why PR tied you-
>their show was emotional and entertaining, and their brass FAR outclassed
>you.
>
>
EXCUSE ME?
hello....
I saw Phantoms show. Yes, it was good, but not deserving to tie ours. I
loved their show.
Ours was far, FAR cleaner though, and it is in my opinion that clean is
what wins. Yes, emotion does play a part, but not THAT much. Watch their
easy-8 to 5 - no fast tempo- shako dancing show another time and compare
it to ours and tell me we didnt deserve to win, not tie.
Brass outclassing us? Get real. I'll admit they were good, but I think
all the hype over Phantom that year has gone to your head. Take another
listen to the CD objectively and tell me how many mistakes you hear in
our show as compared to theirs.
Phantom 96= Laser tone/ hangover city. (unintentional)
(I have to put that because we hung over, but that was intentional.)
LipsNdev96
>Dirty?!?! The Mad Men were excellent brass wise, and their visual program
>was almost just as good. their drumline wasn't as clean as the rest of
the
>bunch, but they weren't dirty enough to put the whole corps in 4th.
>Drums1979
Rondo put it right one year... ( i dont know which year it was....)
Madison doesnt need a concept.. It is the concept!
WRONG. Apparently the judges dont agree. You need a show concept other
than MALAGA/MALAGUENA each year.
Dont get me wrong bro, I loved MAdison 95
Chris
BD 96
mickey
DUTCH BOY 88??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sky 88 :-)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DrumCorpsFan!
1997 CADETS AND SCV
LipsNdev96
>1997 CADETS AND SCV
>
>
Whatever
SnareGuy3
You asked for it. :-)
Bluecoats 97
SCV 97
Colts 97
Madison 96
Madison 95
VK 94
BD 92
SCV 90
Cavies 90
VK 90
PR 89
SCV 87 (the biggest out of this list!)
SOA 85
SOA 84
BD 84
SOA 83
SOA 80
Bridgemen 80
Whew! :-)
--
Jason
Purple408
While I would agree with Phantom 89, I keep hearing that drumline and
realizing that they were placed correctly. The biggest was Crossmen in 79
when they came in 13th, and then won The "Associate" finals with an 86.
They deserved to be in the top 12 that year.
Jeff
Levi Boldt
Whoever you are...
(since you didn't sign your post... Tsk! Tsk!)
GROW UP!!!
Trashing another show only makes you look childish, weak-minded, and
weak-willed in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others who have read
your post. You look like a whining little brat who can't stand a little
criticism and can't stand to share your toys.
Get off your high horse and realize that, if you really were in the 1996
Blue Devils (which I highly doubt from your lack of self-control and
professionalism), you DIDN'T SEE THEIR PERFORMANCE.
Therefore, how can you judge Phantom's show on that particular night?
You CAN'T. How can you criticize something you've never seen? You have
no right to do so. Doing this only serves to make you look even more
like a spoiled child who can't stand to share a piece of candy with a
friend, even though you have eight others.
It is a fact that in 1996 BOTH the Blue Devils and the Phantom Regiment
won. Deal with it.
I suggest that you suck down another one of those beers that you brag
about drinking and think about how you have just impacted the image of
your corps. The Blue Devils are one of the most respected corps in the
activity, yet you jump onto this newsgroup and start screaming like a
baby? How does that make your corps look? Is that how you want your
corps to look?
Yes, I'm overreacting... this guy just pissed me off...
LipsNdev96 wrote:
> EXCUSE ME?
>
> hello....
> I saw Phantoms show. Yes, it was good, but not deserving to tie ours. I
> loved their show.
>
> Ours was far, FAR cleaner though, and it is in my opinion that clean is
> what wins. Yes, emotion does play a part, but not THAT much. Watch their
> easy-8 to 5 - no fast tempo- shako dancing show another time and compare
> it to ours and tell me we didnt deserve to win, not tie.
>
> Brass outclassing us? Get real. I'll admit they were good, but I think
> all the hype over Phantom that year has gone to your head. Take another
> listen to the CD objectively and tell me how many mistakes you hear in
> our show as compared to theirs.
>
> Phantom 96= Laser tone/ hangover city. (unintentional)
> (I have to put that because we hung over, but that was intentional.)
--
Levi Boldt
http://pilot.msu.edu/~boldtlev
Member: 1994 Coachmen, 1995-97 Colts
JBoze3131
>Rondo put it right one year... ( i dont know which year it was....)
>
>Madison doesnt need a concept.. It is the concept!
That was "Madison doesn't need a concept--they ARE the concept" 1995 DCI
Finals broadcast --and it was Cesario not Rondod--just to let you know.
Steve Sorrell
Levi Boldt <bold...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>Yes, I'm overreacting... this guy just pissed me off...
No you aren't overreacting...you said what many others are thinking.
By the way Levi...congrats on being a part of one of the most
entertaining shows on the field this summer. You guys rocked!
Steve
>LipsNdev96 wrote:
>> EXCUSE ME?
>>
>> hello....
>> I saw Phantoms show. Yes, it was good, but not deserving to tie ours. I
>> loved their show.
You're right...it didn't deserve to tie...Phantom should have won
alone.
>>
>> Ours was far, FAR cleaner though, and it is in my opinion that clean is
>> what wins.
Oh really? Cadets beats SCV this year...who was cleaner????
> Yes, emotion does play a part, but not THAT much.
If PR had performed their 96 show with the lack of emotion that they
displayed this season, they would have never tied for the
championship. So YES, it does play a big part. Tell Madison that
emotion doesn't play a part. They'll tell you you're wrong. Try
playing "Let it be Me" without any emotion, and see if it moves you.
Just because the Devils shows are usually more reliant on technique
than emotional factors does not mean that other corps have that same
philosophy.
>Watch their
>> easy-8 to 5 - no fast tempo- shako dancing show another time and compare
>> it to ours and tell me we didnt deserve to win, not tie.
If I remember correctly, Devils drill was not exactly testing the
technical skills of of the BD member either. I remember many moves in
PR that demanded much more than 8 to 5. And since when is a fast
tempo required to win?
>>
>> Brass outclassing us? Get real. I'll admit they were good, but I think
>> all the hype over Phantom that year has gone to your head. Take another
>> listen to the CD objectively and tell me how many mistakes you hear in
>> our show as compared to theirs.
O.K. Devils might have won alone IF you count mistakes and use the
tick system. But lets see...didn't we eliminate that scoring system
over a decade ago???
For a Devils horn book, 96 was elementary music compared to almost
every other season for the Devs. The demand just was not there.
>>
>> Phantom 96= Laser tone/ hangover city. (unintentional)
Well, I must love laser tone. Are you bitter because PR won horns and
Devs didn't???
>> (I have to put that because we hung over, but that was intentional.)
Steve
LATHO717
BAC in foxboro, '94 la
SCOTT36104
>>VK 94
>WHAT? I marched that year, and i STILL couldnt explain to you our
>show....
Can you explain any VK show?
SnareGuy3
>Thanks! We didn't think we'd been screwed those years... >well, OK,
maybe we thought 5th or 6th would have been >more approrpriate than 7th,
but that's not being hugely >screwed.
>-Jack
Yeah, they were definitely better than that. I heard those shows for the
first time last week. Whoa! The drumline was awesome! Were you 2nd bass
all three of those years? I'm going to try to get videos of those shows
pretty soon.
SOA will be back up there soon. :)
Jason
SnareGuy3
Levi Boldt writes:
>Yes, I'm overreacting... this guy just pissed me off...
I agree with you! The guy doesn't at like a BD member...
Jason
Fieldpaint
>Whoever you are...
>(since you didn't sign your post... Tsk! Tsk!)
>
>GROW UP!!!
(snip)
>Get off your high horse and realize that, if you really were in the 1996
>Blue Devils (which I highly doubt from your lack of self-control and
>professionalism), you DIDN'T SEE THEIR PERFORMANCE.
>
(snip, snip)
>Levi Boldt
>http://pilot.msu.edu/~boldtlev
>Member: 1994 Coachmen, 1995-97 Colts
Hey man, whoever you are... he snagged you on that one... I read this
and said one thing: Damn. You pissed this guy off, and he's from the
Colts! Imagine what the REAL BlueDevils members must be thinking...
Dash Fieldpaint
Michael E. New
Fred Hedemark wrote:
>
> If you can put that, I'll say that Star should have won 1990-1993.....
>
> FOUR-PEAT BABY!!!!!!!!
.
Just a bit of trivia. If you juggle the recaps, and take out the visual
captions so that only Music and musical-related (GE, Ensemble, etc)
captions are left, Star does win from 1991-1993. 'Twas their marching
and visual that did them in...
Mike New
me...@bga.com
I'll repost that one sometime. If nothing else, it's interesting
reading.
SnareGuy3
Mike New writes:
>If you juggle the recaps, and take out the visual
>captions so that only Music and musical-related (GE, >Ensemble, etc)
captions are left, Star does win from >1991-1993.
When you did that, didn't Spirit of Atlanta win in 1980 also? :)
Jason
Duvibz
Ok, I was really gonna stay out of this one, but this guy got two of my
own personal pet peeves.
>
>1988 SCV - If there was any year they shoulda won with Phantom it was
this
>year,
>
>1987 Phantom Regiment - this is my all time favorite Phantom Regiment
show,
>and they got hosed badly! This was definitely a top 3 show, another
ending
>which just gives me goosebumps everytime I listen to it!
1987 Regiment, 3rd after semi's with a real good chance of taking the
whole thing. The Finals show was a bit down, but they placed 11th in GE
Visual with the best visual show other than 89 they ever had. Rumor has
it, the judge was ex-Cavie with an ax to grind and was fired soon after.
Not a first place show but a close 3rd.
1988 SCV the better of the Phantom of the Opera shows. Didn't even have
some 3rd soprano playing the wrong notes the last 30 seconds like 89.
Which leads to...
1989 Regiment. Nuffs been said.
Oh and by the way, 95 Scouts was a FAR better show than 96. I think they
were gettting their credit a year too late in 96 with a weak show.
William Scott Spicer
yes
They should have tied with BD
Cadets should have been were PR or Cavies were
Too many errors I have been hearing;is that true?
Spicer
Michael E. New
WmACook wrote:
>
> Relative to marching and visual, Zingali's flex drill and our
> controversial visual elements created a situation where we could have ended
> up anywhere from 1st to 4th in any of those four years including '91. But
> without risk, there can be little gain so we stuck with flex drill and all
> of the "weird" stuff.
Which is what Mr. Hopkins was saying all year, no? :) FWIW, I agree.
I think there should be some corps that push the envelope. Strength
lies in diversity!
> To me, drum corps is not unlike chess--even an early move can
> determine the eventual outcome.
Fascinating! I never looked at it quite that way. Now I'm going to
have to hunt down Quarters/Semis recaps and start looking again!
Mike New
me...@bga.com
Jason Schmidt
In article <19970823214...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, wma...@aol.com says...
> Another thing that I liked about dc competition is that the judging
>criteria and the emphasis on which particular caption will take precedence
>(each year is different and so are some of the judges) are widely
>publicized. The message of what judges are looking for is indicated early
>in the season. Unfortunately, not all of corps' staff pick up on what the
>judges are telling them or they aren't listening.
Hmm. Lets say a DC brass staff is made up of college educated
(B. Mus Ed. or M.M) people. They are practicing all year what they
preach to their members. Now, it's season time, and these staff members
go to judges critiques. Isn't it true taht a lot of judges are NOT professional
educators like these staff members are? So then why should they do what thse
judges are telling them to do when the judges may not be as qualified? (Or may
not be practicing professionals?) I know a DCI judges who is a bus driver for
a living. If I had my college degree in music, I might be somewhat weary of
taking his advice, and would be irritated if he gave my corps an unfair score
because I don't think I need to take his OPINIONS.
So what you're saying is that DC competition is based off many
different people's opinions, and that these opinions should dominate the entire
summer for everyone. Nice.
> Beside luck and work what does it take to win? You got to know what the
>judges are saying and then DO IT! .
Then what? Become good but boring? Or become good because you
listen to someone's opinions, and then base your entire product off of them?
This makes you good? So in 1995, when the Madison Scouts staff stopped
going to critiques, and stopped listening and participating in the corps bashing
that goes on, this made them not good anymore? They didn't deserve to win
because of that? Now, I used the Scouts as an example. I'm sure you can fill
in another corps name in there that something like this has happened to.
That doesn't sound like a very "fun" game to play. Not very fun
for the fans either. This political BS is what is making DC boring, and
unfamiliar, and foreign to the average show goer who sees one maybe two
shows a year when their town gets one, or when they go to see their nephew
march.
Maybe his BS needs to stop. DC doen't need marching bands, or
more members. It needs corps whose staffs get to think for themselves and
their fans, and their members when desgning and teaching their shows. This
might make DC over all more enjoyable like it was before this BS came into
place.
>Bill
--
Jason Schmidt
SnareGuy3
Oops. Forgot to add PR of the late 70s...
Jason
Joel Knull
Another vote from me goes to...
Suncoast Sound 1988, 1989- 2 great shows, 2 great hornlines, 9th and 10th
places respectively, in '88 I thought they were at least top 7 or 8!
Joel K.
SCOTT36104 (scott...@aol.com) wrote:
: Okay all you whiners and complainers, here's your chance. What drum corps
: do you think got the biggest screw job in DCI History? Let's hear it and
: tell why....
Hajjej
>If you listen to the great Bluecoat soprano lines (1987 to 1991),
>you won't hear anyone hanging over.
>
>
someone hangs over in 91. i dont know which song, i have it on highlights
from pbs
John S.
Matt Elcock
On 23 Aug 1997 02:50:40 GMT, snar...@aol.com (SnareGuy3) wrote:
>You asked for it. :-)
Here's mine from the years that I marched:
Star 93
BK 94
BD 95
Troopers 95
Crossmen 96
Southwind 96
Matt "Pinwiz" Elcock
Troopers Pit 1993-1996
Troopers Homepage: http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~pinwiz/troop/troop.htm
Mind Blast Fantasy Drum Corps ......................./mindblast.htm
Walt Omiecinski
Jay Wise wrote:
>
> Joel Knull (dill...@ripco.com) wrote:
> : Another vote from me goes to...
>
> : Suncoast Sound 1988, 1989- 2 great shows, 2 great hornlines, 9th and 10th
> : places respectively, in '88 I thought they were at least top 7 or 8!
>
> : Joel K.
>
>
> 'Nuff said...
>
> ---
> Jay
I think they were top 7 in horns...unfortunately, they score all the
captions.
Walt
GMen78
Are you guys thinking of soprano squealers screeching over, or bad
releases by people in the hornline. I'm trying to understand what
hangover means, besides how you feel after too many margaritas;).
Terri Dittrich
NP/Skokie Imperials '71 - '74
Schaumburg Guardsmen '76 - '78
Jonwband
<<If I remember correctly, we won horns in 87.
Jordi Vilanova
94-97 Bluegrass Brass
87, 88 Garfield Cadets
86 Star of Indiana>>
Actually, Jordi, I think you guys and SCV ties for high brass in 1987.
Jonathan Willis
Joel Knull
argh, My mistake, SCV won brass GE 19.8 to Cadets 19.7
And Jon is right about SCV and Cadets tying for Performance Brass (no ensemble
brass for some weird reason), they both scored a 19.7.
So SCV sorta won Brass since they took the GE caption.
Joel Knull
Joel Knull (dill...@ripco.com) wrote:
: Yes, but didnt Cadets win Brass GE that year ?
: I dunno.
: Joel K.
: Jonwband (jonw...@aol.com) wrote:
: : <<If I remember correctly, we won horns in 87.
Joel Knull
Joel Knull
doh, This just isn't my day today. SCV won brass GE 14.8 to Cadets
14.7...not 19.8 to 19.7 as said before. Sorry bout the extra bandwith!
Joel Knull
Joel Knull (dill...@ripco.com) wrote:
: argh, My mistake, SCV won brass GE 19.8 to Cadets 19.7
: And Jon is right about SCV and Cadets tying for Performance Brass (no ensemble
: brass for some weird reason), they both scored a 19.7.
: So SCV sorta won Brass since they took the GE caption.
: Joel Knull
: Joel Knull (dill...@ripco.com) wrote:
: : Yes, but didnt Cadets win Brass GE that year ?
BbTrpt 1
Suncoast '88???
What a waste of a horn line with such a dumb show!!!!
Larry
EH Koolaid
>Blue Devils lost Nats that year by .3. If I remember correctly, if the
>drum line would've placed 8th Blue Devils would have become the first
corps
>to three-peat. The outcome of the 81 season was the driving force of the
>82 undefeated Blue Devils.
>
AMEN!
Harry Zahlis
BD '81 & '82
Rick Wygant
Yeah, you're right about Suncoast '88. They should've played "Mira
Mira." Oh, no wait, that was already done!
Fotini901
SCV 87. No question.
Fay Salvaras
Spirit pit 87-88
Jason Schmidt
In article <19970824144...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wma...@aol.com says...
>
>Jason
>
> First of all, a college degree does not give people common sense or a
>grasp of what's happening in the world. Each person does that for
>themselves. A college degree provides an opportunity to learn and open a
>few doors. Once we walk in that door however, we better have some common
>sense and a desire to achieve.. I try to learn from experience and I also
>try to keep an interest in the subject I'm studying.
> Virtually every corps staff member knows exactly which judges can
>provide guidance as to what is being looked for during the season. Some
>have degrees and some don't but my point is, they're good and they're
>respected for what they know about drum corps.
>
> Yes, that's what I'm saying! But I would add that there are a few key
>judges who know and understand better (both with and without college
>degrees.) These are the ones who need to be heard by staff members. If
>we're going to follow and understand drum corps, then someone (the judges)
>has to provide the discipline and verdicts. As I said before, putting a
>ball in a basket makes it easy to keep score but understanding the caption
>scores is a lot tougher. Maybe drum corps would be better off if each
>corps had three trys at kicking a football through a goal post. Would fans
>appreciate this scoring method more?
>
I understand that DC probably needs to have winners and placements. Most
people like that idea, including the ave. show goer. It just seems too misguided
to have everything that a DC is made up of to be resting subjectively on a few
key judges shoulders.
>
> O.K., let's use the Scouts as an example! IMO, the Scouts repetoire
>and musical execution are NOT what kept them from placing higher. But
>guess what? They could win it all if they would concentrate in one area.
>And the caption sheets (I read them thru '93 and apparently they haven't
>changed much) tell the story. They wouldn't have to quit being a crowd
>pleaser but they have a achilles heel that screws them around
>year-after-year. Do you surmise what caption I'm talking about?
Hmm, I haven't studied my caption sheets lately, but I might say you
are refering to possibly a visual ensemble area, or something like that.
>
>< This political BS is what is making DC boring, and unfamiliar, and
>foreign to the average show goer who sees one maybe two shows a year when
>their town gets one, or when they go to see their nephew march.>
>
> Who is "the average show goer"? Me? You? Them? Who? Do you want
>everyone to look and sound like the Scouts?
I think that an average DC attender, for the most part, is someone who doesn't
see a show very often (like I said, once a year or so). And they aren't too
knowledgeable in the logistics of DC. You and I would not be average DC
show attenders because we know too much about DC. And no, I don't think
everyone should be like the Scouts. That too would be very boring. I love
the variety that DC has to offer. I like Phantom, BD, SCV, Colts, Cavies,
CBC, BK, Crossmen, etc. Different corps, different styles, all great. But
more of these DC's have maybe sacrificed some entertainment for the
average audience for points from the judges. Trying to attempt a show
that seems difficult in the judges eyes, but ends up being a mess in the
eyes of these ave. show goers. Take the Cavies of this year. The
Firebird Suite isn't a very easy piece to understand, even for some above
average music listeners. And I kind of liked the begining drill stuff. But the
fact of the matter is, these ave. show goers can't really enjoy the music
because it is very odd to them. Thus, the whole show seems odd, and they
don't like what they see. And maybe if I would have seen their show a few
more times, I would have liked it better. Maybe everyone would. But most
people only get to see a few shows each summer. So then a show like this
becomes judge friendly, less audience orientated.
> What has happened to the Scouts year-after-year is NOT political but I
>might add that the Scouts's staff has pissed off enough judges, that they
>don't give a damn anymore. This corps could maintain all of their
>electricity and emotion but they're going to have to listen and understand
>what they are being told. And I agree with what they are being told
>year-after-year-after-year.
I would appreciate it if you enlightened me as to what they are being told.
I just want to know for curiousity's sake.
>
> Do you want the fans, members, and staffs to judge too or would it be
>better to pay attention to those who are now rendering the verdict? IMO,
>every show is designed with fans in mind. Sure, some corps miss the mark
>one year and hit it next. But we all need to remember that in the end, the
>judges have the pencils. And maybe the Scout fans wouldn't be annually
>pissed off if their staff would listen, read, and understand what they are
>being told.
I don't have the solution. I don't claim to.
> It can't happen but I think that I could have taken Scouts 96 show and
>put them in the hunt for the championship. I feel that I know where they
>are screwing up. Is this arrogance? Yeah, in a way it is but I believe it
>even if no one else does.
Where do you think they are missing the target? What, in your opinion, did
they not do in 96 or 95 to win, or place higher?
>
>Bill
--
Jason Schmidt
Kathy Thorne
Dutch Boy 1988-Great show, were on top of a couple of corps ALL YEAR
until quarterfinals.
Blue Devils 1988-One of the best, most entertaining shows ever.
Cadets 1996-Great show, I thought they should've tied with BD>
Dub0
SCV 87 was truly awesome, but what about the next year? SCV 88
is my favorite show of theirs ever. They were WAY better than Scouts,
IMHO.
And then SCV was paid back in 89 when they beat PR undeservedly.
Again, IMHO.
dub
Paul A. McCluskey
DixieD5 wrote:
>
> >
> ><Hmm. Lets say a DC brass staff is made up of college educate
>
> judges are NOT
> >professional educators like these staff members are?
>
> except for the top 15-20, aren't competently trained musicians!
BD 1984, lost by .1 after the judges decided that no decision in two
captions was better than doing their job and taking a stand.
Paul McCluskey
BD 82-84
Paul A. McCluskey
Preach it brother! As a rookie in 82 the previous years defeat was THE
rallying point.
I remember a strong, strong conviction that nothing less than a win at
DCI was acceptable. It was almost as though every time we beat SCV, it
was like driving nails into their coffin one at a time.
In the following two years that I spent with the corps, I never had the
same sense of mission and purpose about the group as I did that year.
Paul
Paul McCluskey
DixieD5
DixieD5
>1987 Regiment, 3rd after semi's with a real good chance of taking the
>whole thing. The Finals show was a bit down, but they placed 11th in GE
>Visual with the best visual show other than 89 they ever had.
How could they have gotten screwed if you yourself admit that their finals
show was a bit down. Isn't that part of the whole story? Doesn't a
champion perform like a champion especially for finals?
Duvibz
><<If I remember correctly, we won horns in 87.
Semi's. and were second in Finals. Now was that second AFTER Cadets and
SCV or between them
Confused
Marwan A. Saidi
bbt...@aol.com (BbTrpt 1) wrote:
OK, I usually try to stay out of the trashy
"my-corps-was-better-than-your-corps" debates, and I feel that
everyone is entitled to their own opinion BUT...
I marched with Suncoast Sound in 1988, and I (and many others) feel
that that show was one of the best in the all-too-brief history of the
corps. Allow me to ask you a few questions.
1. - Did you ever see the show live, or *have* you even seen it? If
you only heard the music, you only got half of the picture.
2. - Have you ever marched with *any* unit?
3. - Have you ever taken a risk?
If you answered no to any of the questions, please keep your opinions
to yourself. Note that I am not saying "you haven't marched, so you
don't know anything.' I don't hide behind that line, as I knew A LOT
about drum corps before I ever marched.
In 1988, Suncoast's original program was going to be a Duke Ellington
show. At the first Winter Camp we had the music to the opener, and by
the end of the camp the chart was pretty good. However, the staff had
a concept show that they really wanted to do, and decided that the
year and the membership was right. So they decided to take some risks.
Risk #1 - Throw out the original book and introduce something entirely
different.
Risk #2 - Attempt to put on a show that had a deep underlying meaning;
that probably would not appeal to everyone; and would be very
difficult to learn, master, and , most importantly, sell.
Risk # 3 - Bring in one of the best drill writers in the country (Marc
Sylvester), and have him write a drill that no Suncoast Corps
previously would have even dreamed of.
Did we have the most entertaining show that year? Probably not. Were
we the cleanest corps on the field? No way. However, anyone who
marched that year, or anyone who WAS affected by that show will tell
you that it was one of the best shows that they had EVER been
associated with.
Larry, maybe you did not like our show, that is your opinion. If you
would like to know what that show was about, and what we did that
summer, feel free to email me at mar...@mindspring.com. I'll be happy
to explain it.
By the way, if no corps ever took a risk, think of the shows you never
would have seen:
Santa Clara 1980 or 81 (first use of extensive assymetrical drill)
Phantom 1982 (Spartacus, one of the first heavily-themed shows)
Garfield 1983 (Perhaps the earliest *mastery* of the assymetrical
drill concept)
Suncoast 1984 ('nuff said)
Blue Devils 1985 (A BIG risk for them)
Suncoast 1985 (first all-original horn book)
Star 1993 (a better show everytime I see it)
Cadets 1993 (ditto)
There are more, but I don't have time to list them right now.
A final thought;
The drum & bugle corps activity is one that is very dear to thousands
of people in this country. While everyone who is a fan is entitled to
thier own opinions, remember that these kids bust their asses all
summer long to entertain you or to achieve something for themselves as
a group. About 30 people aged out of Suncoast in 1988, and any one of
them could probably have marched anywhere else, but believed in our
program. Suncoast Sound is gone now, and the rich but entirely too
brief history is all that is left, and this is true of many other fine
corps. We need to support every corps that tries to put a show on the
field, because you do not know what you have until it is gone. I had
no idea that when I marched off the field at Finals in 1989 that I was
a part of the last Suncoast Finalist corps. I was 19 years old. I
never marched anywhere again.
Enjoy what we've got folks, you never know when it will end.
Marwan Saidi
Suncoast Sound 1987-1989
Marwan A. Saidi
dill...@ripco.com (Joel Knull) wrote:
>Another vote from me goes to...
>
>Suncoast Sound 1988, 1989- 2 great shows, 2 great hornlines, 9th and 10th
>places respectively, in '88 I thought they were at least top 7 or 8!
>
>Joel K.
>
Thanks man!!! Would you believe that in 1989 there were only about
40-45 playing members in that hornline? We felt that we did ok!!
Marwan Saidi
Suncoast 1987-1989
Marwan A. Saidi
bbt...@aol.com (BbTrpt 1) wrote:
>>
>>Suncoast '88???
>>
>>What a waste of a horn line with such a dumb show!!!!
>>
>>
>
>Whops, I was thinking of "My Fair Lady" (87) not the Children's show....
>
>My bad!
>
>Larry S.
Oh. Just saw this (after posting GIANT flame) Just pretend that my
long post is in regards to the all-knowing Barry York's post which
follows this one.
Infosknws
I guess I am just misdirected, but that "Goin Home" sequence from the 1989
show is my favorite Phantom musical moment in their history.
Guess I am OUTOF STEP on this one!
man do I get goosebumps still, every time I hear that...
Mike Baker
BbTrpt 1
ARGHH!!!!!!!!!!!
For the last time, I MEANT '87 SUNCOAST!!!!!!!
I apologize!!!!!
Larry S.
RDeschene
>Enjoy what we've got folks, you never know when it will end.
>
>Marwan Saidi
>Suncoast Sound 1987-1989
Thanks so much for your wonderful post. Here's a wonderful piece on
"Risks" by Janet Rand that reflects many of the same points you've
addressed on RAMD:
To laugh is to risk appearing the fool.
To weep is to risk appearing sentimental.
To reach out for another is to risk involvement.
To expose feelings is to risk exposing your true self.
To place your ideas, your dreams, before a crowd is to risk their
loss.
To love is to risk not being loved in return.
To live is to risk dying, to hope is to risk despair.
To try is to risk failure.
But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to
risk nothing.
The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, and is
nothing.
They may avoid suffering and sorrow, but they cannot learn, feel,
change, grow, love, live.
Only a person who risks is free.
*****
Thanks, again! From another whose corps is gone ....
Sue (Templeton) Deschene
Etobicoke-Oakland Crusaders' colour guard, 1978 to 1980
kv...@ix.netcom.com
This sounds a lot like the past year with Regiment
> However, the staff had
> a concept show that they really wanted to do, and decided that the
> year and the membership was right. So they decided to take some risks.
>
> Risk #1 - Throw out the original book and introduce something entirely
> different.
The third song, Hammering the Ring, was rewwritten in May and what was
put on the field was actually from Act I of Die Valkure. When handed to
us the piece was titled Hammering the Ring II, we soon dubbed it
Hammering the Ring, part dos.
>
> Risk #2 - Attempt to put on a show that had a deep underlying meaning;
> that probably would not appeal to everyone; and would be very
> difficult to learn, master, and , most importantly, sell.
That sounds A LOT like us.
>
> Risk # 3 - Bring in one of the best drill writers in the country (Marc
> Sylvester), and have him write a drill that no Suncoast Corps
> previously would have even dreamed of.
This was the first year that Garret Decker wrote drill for us. We also
had some stuff written by Greg Cesario and Tony Hall
>
> Did we have the most entertaining show that year? Probably not. Were
> we the cleanest corps on the field? No way. However, anyone who
> marched that year, or anyone who WAS affected by that show will tell
> you that it was one of the best shows that they had EVER been
> associated with.
>
>
I feel the same about my show this year. I think that is what drumcorps
is really about.
Dan Vehe
PR Sop 96,97,...
Richard Vincent Lamb
It's been a long time since I've sparred with Bill Cook on RAMD...
In article <19970824144...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wma...@aol.com (WmACook) wrote:
> Jason
> In article <5tobbi$1m...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
> jason.w...@uwrf.edu.nospam (Jason Schmidt) writes:
<many lines snipped! I think Bill's attention span is growing! :->
> < Then what? Become good but boring? Or become good because you
> listen to someone's opinions, and then base your entire product off of them?
> This makes you good? So in 1995, when the Madison Scouts staff stopped
> going to critiques, and stopped listening and participating in the corps
> bashing
> that goes on, this made them not good anymore? They didn't deserve to win
> because of that? Now, I used the Scouts as an example. I'm sure you can fill
> in another corps name in there that something like this has happened to.>
Heh, in 1996, I made the joke that the crowd shouldn't boo when the Scouts
don't beat a top 6 corps; they should yell "Go to critique!" :->
> O.K., let's use the Scouts as an example! IMO, the Scouts repetoire
> and musical execution are NOT what kept them from placing higher. But
> guess what? They could win it all if they would concentrate in one area.
> And the caption sheets (I read them thru '93 and apparently they haven't
> changed much) tell the story. They wouldn't have to quit being a crowd
> pleaser but they have a achilles heel that screws them around
> year-after-year. Do you surmise what caption I'm talking about?
Let me guess--percussion. If so, then you can have a good fight with Ken
"NOT IN STEP" Mazur. He thinks that Scouts have it *right* in that
caption and that other corps have lost what made drum corps percussion
unique by being more orchestral instead of rudimental. I'm not a
percussionist, so I would have to take his word for it.
> < This political BS is what is making DC boring, and unfamiliar, and
> foreign to the average show goer who sees one maybe two shows a year when
> their town gets one, or when they go to see their nephew march.>
I don't know if it's political or if it's even the cause of unfamiliar,
boring shows.
> Who is "the average show goer"? Me? You? Them? Who?
Jay Wise has said it was the person who went to one or two shows a year.
Unfortunately, this is not the "average person" covered in the DCI Fan
Survey, which was done at POC and Championships--those are more dedicated,
educated about drum corps, and willing to travel a long distance than the
people I meet at local shows. BTW, Stuart Rice has found evidence that
makes him suspicious of that fan survey. He thinks it's cribbed from an
even earlier marketing survey.
> Do you want
> everyone to look and sound like the Scouts?
No. Some of us would like corps that look and sound like VK, Bridgemen,
Nite Express, 27th Lancers, North Star, Anaheim Kingsmen, Kilties,
Commodores, Guardsmen, Muchachos, Argonne Rebels, Sky Ryders and other
entertaining corps that are no longer part of the junior corps activity.
All of those were different from each other in look and sound and all were
fan favorites in their day.
> Would all of us be happy then?
With carbon copies of the Scouts? No. With a variety of corps with
distinctive but fan-friendly styles like the ones I listed above? YES!
> What has happened to the Scouts year-after-year is NOT political but I
> might add that the Scouts's staff has pissed off enough judges, that they
> don't give a damn anymore. This corps could maintain all of their
> electricity and emotion but they're going to have to listen and understand
> what they are being told.
Which is? I may be wrong about percussion.
> And I agree with what they are being told
> year-after-year-after-year.
OK, why?
> <Maybe this BS needs to stop...... It needs corps whose staffs get to
> think for themselves and their fans, and their members when desgning and
> teaching their shows.>
Actually, I think the top 7 do think for themselves. The problem is how
much thinking for themselves is rewarded in 8 and lower. I'm sure Colts
thought for themselves and it got them 13th!
> Do you want the fans, members, and staffs to judge too or would it be
> better to pay attention to those who are now rendering the verdict?
I can't answer for Jason. However, we can always get Stuart going on the
studies that show that educational level has no bearing on the quality of
judging!
> IMO,
> every show is designed with fans in mind. Sure, some corps miss the mark
> one year and hit it next. But we all need to remember that in the end, the
> judges have the pencils. And maybe the Scout fans wouldn't be annually
> pissed off if their staff would listen, read, and understand what they are
> being told.
Probably. Someone needs to tell the Scouts' side of this, especially
regarding how not going to critique fits their philosophy. Pity Scott
Stewart doesn't have email. He's at a disadvantage on RAMD relative to
George Hopkins.
> It can't happen but I think that I could have taken Scouts 96 show and
> put them in the hunt for the championship.
Wow!
> I feel that I know where they
> are screwing up. Is this arrogance?
Not entirely. I think it's a demonstration that you know the activity
well.
> Yeah, in a way it is but I believe it
> even if no one else does.
Oh, I believe it. I don't know if the Scouts would be willing to
compromise what might be seeing as their integrity to do so.
> Bill Cook
Good to see you involved in a serious discussion and talking it seriously.
It's more rewarding than putting diapers on cows (inside joke ]:-)
Vince Lamb
Teresa O'beirne
The answers to the riddle posed by Mr. Cook would most likely be M & M
and Todd Ryan (great guy and a great instructor). Although at first I
kept trying to think of a corporate logo with VP (Visual Performance) in
it :)
Ron, Scouts' Staff 81-85, 94-96
WmACook
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.95.970828...@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
rvl...@umich.edu (Richard Vincent Lamb) writes:
Cook said:
>>They could win it all if they would concentrate in one area.
>> And the caption sheets (I read them thru '93 and apparently they haven't
>> changed much) tell the story. They wouldn't have to quit being a crowd
>> pleaser but they have a achilles heel that screws them around
>> year-after-year. Do you surmise what caption I'm talking about?
Lamb answered:
>Let me guess--percussion.
Vince -- Get out the caption scores and guess again. Wrong answer!
Hint -- look were the points are! Another hint -- it beat Star in '93.
Another hint -- one of the largest US companies use it as a logo. Another
hint -- a prominent Scout staff member left after the Scouts won their last
championship. Since that time, two other corps have won world
championships with that person on staff.
Vince, if you don't get the answer this time, you might consider taking up
a new hobby.
Bill
Bill Cook
wma...@aol.com
http://www.cookgroup.com
http://www.cookgroup.com/star
Bob Delaney
Ron
Thanks, guess I was being a little dense. Wrong logo, I thought it was
GE!!!! (althgough that left me scratching me head a little)
Duhhhhhhhh, guess I'll just go back to listening to my CD's
Bob D
Jeff Mitchell
Teresa O'beirne wrote:
>
> The answers to the riddle posed by Mr. Cook would most likely be M & M
> and Todd Ryan (great guy and a great instructor). Although at first I
> kept trying to think of a corporate logo with VP (Visual Performance) in
> it :)
> Ron, Scouts' Staff 81-85, 94-96
Ron,
You could also have;
BP Brass Performance and British Petroleum
GE General Effect and General Electric
Although, from my viewpoint, the Scouts don't come up short in either.
Jeff, DCI Judge 1979-97
WmACook
In article <5uf07b$fp6$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
YXX...@prodigy.com (Teresa O'beirne) writes:
> M & M
>and Todd Ryan (great guy and a great instructor). Although at first I
>kept trying to think of a corporate logo with VP (Visual Performance) in
>it :)
>Ron, Scouts' Staff 81-85, 94-96
>
>
GE would fit too:--)
WmACook
In article <340B34...@prodigy.net>, Jeff Mitchell
<JEFFMI...@prodigy.net> writes:
>Although, from my viewpoint, the Scouts don't come up short in either.
>
>Jeff, DCI Judge 1979-97
>
>
Jeff -- When compared to the visual caption scores of corps above them,
they have been been a subject of MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. And IMO, if
Scouts, as an organization, are satisfied, I'm satisfied. But if the
Scouts want to be in the hunt, then there's no questions where the
additional points are.
Dukie95
>Cadets should have been were PR or Cavies were
there were two corps between PR and Cavies, so were SHOULD they have gone?
Darren Dukart,
Phantom Regiment
Contra, 1995-1999
SUTA
HapEnes
1975 muchachoes
Ted
HapEnes wrote:
>
> 1975 muchachoes
Wrong, they got what they deserved. The Muchachos of that era were
unsportsmanlike in the extreme. They were known to intentionally try to
mess up other corps timing from the front side (obvoiusly their staff
was allowing this if not encouraging it). They also obviously had utter
disregard for the rules to have had so many overage members. This was
truly a shame because with the incredible talent they had they still
felt it was cool to cheat in every way conceivable.
BCinWCFla
Ted,
All I want to know is what planet are you from, and what drugs were you
using at the time? Either that or someone sold you on a bunch of happy
horsesh__ a long time ago. Mess up other corps timing? Are you nuts? Most
of the time, the corps was never even allowed to watch other corps. If they
were, it was usually from the back. If the mere sight of the corps was
enough to intimidate people, well, sorry if that shook you in your boots...
Get a grip!
"B"