Formula for light wind fun board
Zena Droid
cruising and are they much harder to sail then a large freeride wide
style board?
I have my eye on a 2002 Starboard 186, which is selling for a very
good price where I am.
Thanks,
Zena
Bill Kline
get some help with rig tuning and use the mast the sailmaker recommends.
Most sailors reach, so fin selection will really help you enjoy. i assume it
comes with the Curtis CR-15 70 which will be nice for reaching in light power
range. If you buy the board, I would be happy to help you choose a fin for easy
sailing and reaching with power selecting the right fin will really help keep
the board quiet and smooth on reaches.
I owned a 186 and used it with the Curtis DC 42 for my girlfriend who hads
sailed a bit. In light wind, she had just a super time!
The CR-15 62 is a good reaching fin.
Also the Someweed 50 and 56 are super stable, accelerate smoothly and very easy
to ride. For reaching they can plane up as quickly as the CR-15 and also keep
the board quiet in maneuvers.
The solution is fine tuning the rig and using a fin that gives you a smooth
ride and keeps you hooked in in lulls.
have Fun!
Bill Kline
Gorge Sport USA
Curtis Performance Fins, Orca Fins, Orca Kite Fins
Hood River, OR USA
www.gsport.com
ph/541 387 2649 fax/541 386 1715
WillV
If you are the "racer" type, a Formula board may suit you...but, based on
your previous posts, you seem to be looking for just more TOW. I would wait
for a free-ride board with enough float for you and a big sail - say 7-8M.
Not sure how much sail you can handle.... Are you asking about something to
"just get out on the water" when there's hardly any wind? - May big boards
can do that...
Formula gear is a whole other type of sailing and will require a different
set of skills and sails (usually larger than normal). The board itself is
huge! I have sailed my START board with a 7.5 and the small fin (40cm DRAKE
fin) and it was fun - but the F186 is a "race board" - I don't think it's
what you're after??
Perhpas a Starboard "Free Formula" or GO board - certainly a CARVE board,
maybe 120 or 130L - maybe even 110L (not sure how much you weigh) would be
the next step up for you... Basically, the smallest board that will float
you back home is a great board to develop your overall sailing skills.
The F186 is a beast, and is fairly demanding in terms of how you sail and
jibe - see back posts on "Gybing or Jibing" a Formula Board - very
different. I would recomend not to go for it unless you have aspirations of
competitive racing these boards.
Hold out for something with specifications close to most "free-ride"
shapes - just figure out how much volume you need for: you, the rig and your
wetsuit ;) - and perhaps add an extra 10 Litres or so for "good measure"
(maybe even 20L if you want something to sail with next to no wind). You
should have lots of chances to practice "free-style" or non-planing sail
handling with something like this...plus work on those beautiful lay-down
jibes! Good luck looking for your next board.
Best,
-WillV-
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
AD.
Hi Zena,
You might prefer something like an AHD Free Diamond 77 (there should be
the odd used one around for sale). They plane pretty early, but still turn
nicely and can still haul ass (not quite formula levels, but nowhere near
as technical to sail).
It also wouldn't need as big a fin or rig to get out on and have fun -
you'll appreciate that if you sail somewhere tidal. Freeride gear also
tends to hold it's resale value longer than race gear.
I think buying a Formula board might leave you with the same regret as
your veloce, unless you really want to race of course.
Just my opinion :)
Cheers
Anton
Jack (Sarasota)
Fragility is a bigger issue than difficulty. They are not all that
hard to sail, but the transition to plane occurs very quickly, and the
only strap positions are right on the rail. They are more fun to sail
up and downwind than beam reaching, although if you keep the sail and
fin sizes down, reaching is not a problem, you just lose the ability
to go up and down wind at extreme angles by having a "small" sail.
Even so, they are not really designed for beam reaching.
Is it a 186 or 186X? The 186 was not as well received as the X
version. The X version is great in light air.
If you don't care about racer like up and downwind capability, think
about something more likely to survive a mast plant without needing
repairs.
If the price is cheap enough, and you like straps on the rail (I do),
maybe this is not a bad idea. Lots of excitement in relatively light
wind. Keep in mind that a 8.0 is a "small" formula sail. I do put a
7.0 on my F175 when the wind is consistently over 20 mph, but "real"
Formula sailors do not usually go that small.
Jack (Sarasota)
modifier of F175 noses
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Zena Droid
I wouldn't describe myself as the racer type but I like going fast
like everyone else. Your right when you say I'm looking for more TOW
so I'm looking for a big board for 6-15 knots and I thought the
formula would be perfect for this with a 9m V8 or GTX....maybe not. I
didn't think they would be that hard to sail.
WillV would a formula be any harder to sail then the hypersonic?
Has anyone had any experience with the Fanatic x-rays?
Zena Droid
would use an 8.5m twin cam sail so will need some advice from Bill as
to what size fin would suit me. I spoke to the seller again today and
he said he will give me free lessons to get me started on formula gear
which makes it more attractive.
Also take into account in summer here winds are usually around 8-12
knots with afternoon sea breezes so I wouldn't be getting into
anything to strenuous.
Anton raised a good point about tidal areas so that would be a
negative having such a big fin.
"Jack \(Sarasota\)" <Jack...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<yL6dnW0JJPT...@comcast.com>...
Steven Slaby
> I wouldn't describe myself as the racer type but I like going fast
> like everyone else. Your right when you say I'm looking for more TOW
> so I'm looking for a big board for 6-15 knots and I thought the
> formula would be perfect for this with a 9m V8 or GTX....maybe not. I
> didn't think they would be that hard to sail.
I personally think it would be perfect so long as you are a little more
careful with the board since its lighter and a little more fragile than a
recreational board. Some people have said that the board is not good for
reaching but I have never found a problem reaching, so long as you pick a
sail size appropriate for reaching. When racing everyone uses a bigger sail
in order to be powered going at extreme angles. If you try reaching with an
over-sized sail then it will be very challenging. I think your choice of a
9m would be great for what you are looking for.
I don't race often but I use my Formula alot for recreational sailing when
the winds are extremely light since it will plane earlier than other more
freeride/recreational boards on the market. If you want to plane at the
low-end limit the the Formula is the way to go.
Steve.
--
----------------------------------------------
Ottawa Windsurfing http://ottawawindsurfing.ca
Windsurfing Canda website development http://www.windsurf.ca/WC/index.shtml
CMWA newsletter editor http://www.windsurf.ca/cmwa/CMWA_frame.htm
diceman87
free-formula, they said pretty much whats been posted already but some
other useful thoughts;
a formula board is 1m wide and normally has a 70cm fin, where are you
going to store it ? how do you transport it too and from the sailing
area ? if you leave it on the beach while rigging/derigging in a
breeze it may blow away and they are fragile.
how do you carry a 10m sail and formula board to and from the water ?
formula is pretty much designed for upwind and downwind and the to
race boards aren't therefore that comfortable for reaching.
these are not insumountable problems but something to consider perhaps
if they are going to effect your days sailing.
for me the price of a season or 2 old formula board is very
tempting...
and who knows it may be enough of an excuse to get back into racing,
which I last did on DIV II kit way back when boards were wobbly and
sails were baggy....
Paul - who is also thinking of formula kit as a way of getting more
TOW.
WillV
I think that the Hypersonic would be more difficult for you to sail only
because I assume you haven't had a chance to sail any of these "wide" race
boards. The Hypersonic jumps onto a plane so quickly, you have to be ready
to go for the straps right away and hike out - much different feeling than
your veloce. If you already have some experience sailing fast on one of the
Formula boards - the transition to the Hypersonic is no problemo.
The other thing about comparing the Formula to the Hyper is that the Hyper
has much less volume - and will make things a bit more difficult for you.
That being said, if you're determined enough, you can sail either one and
have fun racing around. The Hyper is sooo much more $$ now though ;(
If I hear you correctly, you are prepared to sail a 9M sail? (Please talk
with Ellen about this as she will have some insight for you)...then yes, the
Formula (or Hyper) would be a great setup for light-air blasitng.
I'm not sure that one of the free-ride boards would be comfortable carrying
a 9M sail - 8M yes, but 9M sort of jumps you into the need to have a really
wide board (and big fin) to balance out the package. Just know that if you
skimp out and say buy older, heavy booms and/or mast for that 9M sail -
you'll really have a handful and it may not be much fun to sail. The newest
Powerex 100% mast, and an HPL carbon boom, makes the rig feel so much
lighter. I have sailed a 9M Sailworks Retro with that setup and it hardly
feels heavier than my 7.5M rig - really quite amazing if you have the
lightest gear available.
Hope that helps you a bit Zena.
-WillV-
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Dan Weiss
more faith from the rider when the wind comes up. There is some adjustment
period in the first few hours, but after that the boards do what you want
them to do, and tuning becomes the issue rather than a particular set of
windsurfing skill. In one sense they are the easiest shortboard to sail in
10 knots and the easiest with which to go upwind.
For fins, you might want to get that 70cm fin to start, along with something
like 66cm. It sounds big, but you will like the feel once used to it. What
you want to achieve is to sit hard in your harness lines (no
upright-freestyle-waist-harness-sailing) and let the board naturally roll up
to you. As you sit on the harness you will feel the fin under your feet
flex with the pressure you apply. It is leering to use this subtle foot
pressure and fin flex that makes FW boards fly upwind. That's why a 70cm
fin can be controlled, as not only to you have all sorts of leverage against
it from the tail width, but it will flex in a way similar to your mast and
provide some comfort in chop. Try this in flat water first, which should
prove no challenge to find in 10 knots. This fin flex also makes beam
reaching easier without the need to switch down fin sizes, although a
smaller fin dramatically reduces fin power.
Good luck, you will enjoy your board.
--
-Dan
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Tom
freeride.
No big deal to me - I am used to big boards and sails - it is smaller tho
wider than my old Mistral longboard!
Tom - Chicago
"diceman87" <donotem...@goingsurfin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q1ip5v0k8fju79nnq...@4ax.com...
Craig (gsogh) Goudie
adjusted to. You should try this before you consider one. It's great
for applying leverage, (I love it), but I've had a number of people
tell me they disliked the boards I sold them, because the straps were
so far out on the rail.
-Craig
p.s. the only boards I own and use this way are "formula" boards.
Zena Droid wrote:
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
Dan Weiss
Maxing out fin power is what it's all about. I know lots of people who felt
very uncertain out on the rail sailing "next to" rather than on top of the
board -until they started passing their buddies and learning what point and
shoot sailing is all about. Certainly not the only way to fly, but well
worth the learning curve, I'd say!
--
-Dan
"Craig (gsogh) Goudie" <gor...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:3E5D3999...@netzero.net...
Jack (Sarasota)
the 70 cm fin will bother you in light air. In fact you will need it
to get planing in the conditions you describe. You may well want a
smaller fin when it gets really windy.
Cindy and Lisa (Tufarnorth) have F155s that they successfully use with
rather small weed fins because of their venue at Pine Island. Lisa is
quite the early planing diva, and usually doesn't use very big sails.
Seems I recall that you are not very heavy, so 8.5 might work. It is
really pleasant to plane along in the mellow conditions you describe.
I suspect you will have to put up with some schlogging, even with the
big board. Schlogging really bugs me, as I have better equipment for
sub-planing, but you are coming from a smaller board, so a Formula
board should really increase your planing time.
A 186 should come quite a bit cheaper than a 186X, I think. Can you
demo it?
Jack (Sarasota)
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Charles Ivey
the F186 and a big sail is the ticket. Yes, the foot straps are on the
outside edge, but after a little time, you come to like the feel and power
that gives you. Any more, I don't like being more inboard and centered over
the rear fin on a smaller board because I cannot drive off the fin nealy as
well -- it feels like I am depowered.
The only question I would have is where are you with your technique. If you
are past the frequent catapult stage and can feel most of the falls coming
in time to hang on and direct the rig away from the nose, then the Formula
boards are (for me anyway) a good free ride choice in light winds. If you
need a little more rugged construction, I would opt for a board more like
the GO 180 or Start, either of which will plane up early as 100 cm wide
boards, but will not be as fragile. The problem with boards under (pick
your number...) 80, 85, 90...centimeters wide is you do not have enough
leverage over a big fin and sail to power up in light winds. Some can
overcome this with vigorous pumping to get onto a plane but for the most
part, you need width to plane early.
Dealing with 12 mph winds is sometimes frustrating. Sailing around
thinking, "if I only had a little gust to get going..." drives one mad.
These kind of days a great on a 186 and something like a 10.5 Retro. With
this combo, you can launch and fly over flat water and still feel very fast.
Plus, it drives the narrow board guys crazy. Sailing big in light wind is
actually a lot of fun, if for no other reason than you are planing and going
at a relative speed that seems impossible for the conditions.
CI
Charles Ivey
In light wind, the F186 is a super board, and planes earlier than the F155
or F175. The X186 is less volume and needs a little more kick and pump to
get going. I ride a F186 as the board of choice up to well over 20 mph
winds just because I have worked hard to learn how to control it and know
exactly what it will do. I love sailing through holes and lulls on the
board. For freestyle sail flipping, its great because you are standing on a
dance floor and can focus entirely on the sail. Forget the chop hops
however, I cracked a fin on my F155 doing that and it was only a 58 cm job.
CI
"Jack (Sarasota)" <Jack...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zo6cnXNjZa-...@comcast.com...
Zena Droid
you will know it's been windy here (20-30 knots) and the races have
been postponed all week. I've been out windsurfing in these
conditions all week with no problems. I doubt I would sail the
formula board if the wind got over 16 knots.
You mention the Retro Charles, so it's ok to use camless sails on a
formula board? I hear most people recommend cams but I suppose most
people race with these boards. That would be a relief if I didn't
have to buy a heavier sail with cams and spend the extra time rigging
and tuning it.
mmm the pros are starting to out way the cons. If I want a real light
wind 6-15 knot cruiser that planes early I'm going to need a wide
board no matter what. There is no difference between carrying a Go or
a formula board down to the beach.
If I can use camless sails on a formula board rigging and tuning will
be easy. A formula board is designed to go upwind and down wind as
opposed to reaching, this is fine with me. I have to sail the board
on the rail, as long as it doesn't make my legs ache I can live with
that. A formula board is fragile so my newbie friends can't use it.
A formula board has a Curtis 70 fin so there will be no killer carve
jibes a few feet offshore but even the Go 180 comes with a 60cm fin.
In shallow areas it will be a long walk before I can water start, well
that's the case everywhere at low tide here.
Now that the race nationals are over here I can get a starboard 186
for nearly half the price of other wide style freeride boards which
leaves me more money to invest in a better rig, this is probably the
biggest factor. The seller has offered to give me lessons on it.
I appreciate all the advice why not to buy this board as I know you
only had my best interests at heart but I think I'm ready to sign on
the dotted line. The only thing left to say is can you put up with my
"how the heck do you sail this dam formula board" posts :)
"Charles Ivey" <charl...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<sIh7a.137625$K71....@news1.central.cox.net>...
Tom
You definitely do NOT need cammed sails for the Formula boards.
I went to the Retros when I bought the F175 a couple of years ago, and would
never go back to cammed sails. I like the ease of rigging and extreme
tunability of these sails. I am happy to give up the extra 1% pointing and
speed to the cammed sails. (You see, I am old now and much prefer comfort
over perfection!)
Tom - Chicago
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Charles Ivey
winds, big powerful sails are what you want and since you are not racing,
who cares about a potential slight loss of upwind angle. Depending on the
sail, camless sails can come very close to the low end power of cammed sails
today and in the case of big Retros, the lighter feel and great low end are
well worth it to me. I have 9.8, 10.4, 11.0, and 12.5 cammed race sails and
also a 10.5 Retro. For going out in light winds and having a great time
planing around I prefer to take the 10.5 Retro. It planes me up just fine
and is easier to pump, although truthfully, pumping a big sail is not my
best skill and I don't like doing it -- I try to do one or two pump
launches. I can almost as well with a 9.5 Retro, also a power sail. By the
time I am down to a 9.0, I am thinking of it as a slippery, speed sail and
not a light wind planing rig.
Talk to Ellen Faller about this...she is "in the know" as a woman who has
made the jump and enjoys big sails for recreational sailing. For those who
have not experienced light wind planing at almost 2 times wind speed, you
may think it is tame, but actually the feeling is incredible.
Remember the F186 is fragile and must be treated carefully, but I know of no
better low wind machine and plan to keep mine around even though I will be
sailing a F147 this year.
CI
"Tom" <t...@TAKEOUTtobmkc.com> wrote in message
news:DXq7a.1011$rM4.2...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Dan Weiss
event, you can use a camles sail just fine on a FW board. However, without
the forced shape a camless sail will collapse or "uninflate" as pressure in
the sail decreases. This can inhibit low wind acceleration where you use
too small of a sail, but shouldn't pose any problem most of the time.
--
-Dan
"Zena Droid" <zena...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com...
Charles Livaudais
You'll hear varying opinions on cammed v. camless sails. My personal
take on the subject is that big camless sails are great....IF you sail
in relatively steady winds. 12mph, for example, means 0 to 30 with an
average of 12 at my local lake. Cams really help here. At the North
Carolina coast, which is just a few hours away, 12mph usually means 8
to 16. Camless sails rock at the coast. I wish I could just use a big
camless sail since they are considerably easier to handle, but they
are too much of a disadvantage at the lake. Life would be easier if I
just refused to sail there -- right, Brian? :-).
Charles Livaudais
zena...@hotmail.com (Zena Droid) wrote in message news:<7c5221f5.03022...@posting.google.com>...
Charles Ivey
when deflated better than others, but a crushing gust can be a problem for
all of them. When I sail camless I tend to downhaul a little firmer than
some to get the "safety" twist in place. Then the AO really comes into
play. Your lake sounds like ours on many days. If the weather forecast is
15 to 20, I know we will see a 30 plus gust and devilish little lull that
can sit you right down. Along with that comes the veering and backing that
makes lake sailing, especially racing, challenging and fun.
CI
"Charles Livaudais" <liva...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:de63513e.03022...@posting.google.com...
Jerry McEwen
wrote:
>Dealing with 12 mph winds is sometimes frustrating. Sailing around
>thinking, "if I only had a little gust to get going..." drives one mad.
>These kind of days a great on a 186 and something like a 10.5 Retro. With
>this combo, you can launch and fly over flat water and still feel very fast.
>Plus, it drives the narrow board guys crazy. Sailing big in light wind is
>actually a lot of fun, if for no other reason than you are planing and going
>at a relative speed that seems impossible for the conditions.
>
>CI
Okay, that pushed me over the edge, Charles. I must sail very soon.
Lou Pignotti
I think I learn at least as much from you guys and girls ( or
men and women if I want to phrase it in a politically correct fashion
)as I do from the magazines or the few professionals that frequent
this group. While the professionals often give great advice, it is the
regular guys and girls who are sailing in less than ideal conditions
that are often providing me with the most pertinent suggestions for
improving my sailing experience. Now I'm not saying that I am even
equal to most of you regulars in sailing ability, only that your
sailing experiences and equipment preference seem to parallel my own
situation more closely.
I just bought a Hypersonic 105 ,but before I did , was
agonizing whether to buy the 105 or wait for the 125. Will V
personally gave me some very good reasons to go with the 105 for my
situation. Thanks Will.
Charles Ivey also personally gave me some very good advice on a
Go board that I purchased last year. Also the fact that Charles seems
to own every imaginable wide board in the Starboard line ,not to
mention half of the Sailworks line ,makes him an excellent resource
for me. I own mostly Sailworks sails, and just purchased a new 10.5
Retro that I can't wait to try. Starboard should stick his picture up
on the forum just because he owns about half of the Starboards ever
made ;-) Charles sails gusty inland lakes like I do, so I always pay
attention to his input.
The rest of you offer some of the most logical ,well thought out
advice I have come across. This is why rec.winsurfing is such a great
resource. OK , I'm done kissing up to everyone ;-) but I really do
mean it. Zena started the thread and it sounds to me that she should
have no trouble adapting to a formula board and large sail. I would
concur with many of the opinions offered to her without offering
specific suggestions of my own.
Thanks again for making rec.windsurfing a great place to get
advice.
Boy , I really need to get out from under this computer and start
sailing! I wish the weather would break and the ice melt!
Lou Pignotti
Brian Mckenzie
Livaudais) wrote:
>Zena,
>
>You'll hear varying opinions on cammed v. camless sails. My personal
>take on the subject is that big camless sails are great....IF you sail
>in relatively steady winds. 12mph, for example, means 0 to 30 with an
>average of 12 at my local lake. Cams really help here. At the North
>Carolina coast, which is just a few hours away, 12mph usually means 8
>to 16. Camless sails rock at the coast. I wish I could just use a big
>camless sail since they are considerably easier to handle, but they
>are too much of a disadvantage at the lake. Life would be easier if I
>just refused to sail there -- right, Brian? :-).
>
>
>Charles Livaudais
Are you getting time to sail? My bass ackward logic....well, takes 45
- 50 minutes to the lake, well why not just tack that other hour on
and be at the coast! :-) Plus I'm forced too, well not really, but
I leave all my gear at the coast, so I have to go there to sail.
Now if I was setup like Alan White....that would be nice. Right out
the back door and into Lake Norman!
Brian
Ellen
Not to worry about the cam/camless thing with sails on the wide
boards! With the note that I'm talking about modern (> 6 yr old
designs) sails, that is. Non cambered wave sails need not apply, but
they are rarely made in the sizes needed for wide boards.
I used to draw the line at 7.5 m2 sails, and have now happily sailed
8.5, 9.5, and 10.5 sails on my boards. I race with Sailworks Retros (and
so has Bruce Peterson, I might add!) so there is absolutely nothing
wrong with using them. I prefer the ease of rigging, and the responsive
feel of the sails over the cambered ones.
Bring on the questions...and enjoy the board!
Ellen