Humility: The Virtue
The Martins
ask anyone to leave, nor do we single anyone out for a public or private
dressing down. But I have made a point of not advertising our dances to the
experienced folk, square and contra dance people in town. I want our scene
to be inoculated against the excesses of the local experienced dancers until
a real personality and style can develop. This has led to some interesting
experiences:
Hmmm.... I was calling a family-oriented square dance (public benefit
event), which had been generally advertised. A feller who I recognized as a
skilled longtime all-sorts-of dancer chatted for a moment with me before the
dance. He had attended one or two of our monthly square dances and he let me
know that the dancing skills of our people are just not up to snuff, that
the dancing was not satisfying for an experienced dancer.
(At this point Satan might interject: "Aha! My plan has worked!") When he
told me he had taken the day off work to come to the dance I felt sorry for
what he was about to experience...
Half or more of the dancers were new at it, including little kids. He, of
course, tuned out my teaching in the walk-throughs; insisted on buzz step
swings when I had taught our square dance walking swing; anticipated the
calls and tried to get the figures to fit the phrase of the tune like a
contra; etc., etc. etc. You know the drill. The poor guy was always out of
step, going right when we went left, trying to back out when the rest of us
were heading into the middle of the circle, stopping and standing still at
the end of the phrase while everyone else was promenading, getting way
behind in the walk-through because he felt it necessary to teach his square
how to dance, and on an on. And all this was done with a scowl on his face,
never cracked a smile, and left after the first dance. Some people take on
all the responsibility for their square, which surely can't be any fun.
I swear, some people are their own worst enemies. We have a few contra
dancers who come to our dances. Some of them love it and have been with us
all year. You can't distinguish them from the rest of the crowd except that
I know them personally. But others... They stick out like fresh road-kill.
First off, they have the uniform on: Shorts in winter, dance camp T-shirts,
sweat swab dangling from a back pocket, scary bright-eyed look, and a cloned
partner. When the dance starts the couple becomes a big disruption wherever
they are: See paragraph above. Invariably they get lost in a long,
self-centered, eye-locked buzzstep swing while the rest of the dancers
complete the promenade. Then they furiously try to get their square, which
they themselves fouled up, back into operation. Instead of listening to the
call and picking it up again, they point and push and dash around and tell
everyone how the dance goes. And their square never gets it.
This year more experienced folk dancers have been showing up at the square
dances, which I love. But I also forsee a tough time this year for us
callers because we are going to really emphasize styling this season. That
means walking with a bent knee shuffle where the feet never really leave the
floor, walking swings where you are standing off to the left of your
partner, givng weight, and buckdancing or flatfooting where appropriate. Its
hard enough to get bouncing young gazelles to level themselves and smooth
out their dancing without a bunch of vocal experienced dancers out there
contradicting what we are teaching.
The thing is that our square dance scene is very new. We, the callers, are
mostly interested in the Southern squares and "running set" squares because
it fits the kind of music we play. The dancers are important and effective
teachers of each other, so when they teach styling that is the opposite of
the style of dance we are introducing, it is a real problem.
I guess this is a long winded way of saying to you experienced dancers: Be
polite, nurture a little humility, be aware of what's going on around you
when you are on the dance floor, pay attention to the other dancers and not
just your partner. If its a different kind of dancing than you are used to,
do as the Romans do. Variety is the spice o' life.
Bill Martin
jared
listed a square dance with caller Bill Martin. Having never heard him
call, I decided to go.
The dance was an energetic and fun event. It reminded me of an English
Ceilidh in feel.
There were two noticable differences with a contra dance in the same town
later that week: (1) the median age of the square dance was 10 yrs
younger* and (2) dance style was not too evident at the square dance**.
So here's what would be good ... the younger crowd eventually infuses the
contra scene and has exposure to and adapts some sort of dance style (that
may an evolution of today's contra scene).
By the way, all the callers that night were very good. One caller
simultaneously called and accommodated her 1 1/2 yr old, an impressive
feat.
* without counting the young children who were dancing in the manner of
their age
** or perhaps a bouncy and free style
The Martins
From: "jared" <jared....@netspace.net.au>
> I was temporarily in town XXX
Portland, Oregon.
> There were two noticable differences with a contra dance in the
> same town later that week: (1) the median age of the square dance
> was 10 yrs younger*
I believe that is a function of the music. The bands in town have
roots in rock music, they play gigs in pubs and bars and open for
punk and alternative rock bands, etc.. So, when the dances started
it was natural for them to bring the same fans along.
> and (2) dance style was not too evident at the square dance**.
And that is a fact. I have been reluctant until now to spend a lot
of tedious time teaching style because I wanted people to get
suckered in by the dance party atmosphere. Also, a lot of our
dancers are straight from the mosh pit and controlling them was out
of the question. But now we need to introduce the next level, which
is learning to dance well. We are going to be teaching some basic
buckdancing, too. I'm hoping that aspect will interest and absorb
some of the dancers who are now asking for more challenging
material. (I'll be damned if we are going to go THAT route. Besides,
where are the callenging figures in the big circle type square
dances, anyway? Ha! They don't know I fooled 'em.)
> So here's what would be good ... the younger crowd eventually
infuses the
> contra scene and has exposure to and adapts some sort of dance
style (that
> may an evolution of today's contra scene).
The contra dances have their own strong identity, personality, style
and tradition. Its more likely our dancers would be transformed into
contra dancers rather than the other way around. I tell people at
our dances about the contra dances in town. But, I can't tell you
how many of them have come back and volunteered that the experience
was decidedly negative. The term "anal-retentive" is frequently
used. The contra dances would be fun for them if they were more
willing to hang in there, but we spoil 'em with our square dance
parties. They like the fun and that skirting of the edge of chaos we
just can't seem to avoid.
> By the way, all the callers that night were very good. One caller
> simultaneously called and accommodated her 1 1/2 yr old, an
> impressive feat.
That would be Caroline Oakley of the Flat Mountain Girls. She and
Paul Silveria are learning to call under my steady hand and shaky
mind. The only way she can get microphone time is to go ahead and
nurse little Simon while she calls. She is dedicated, yes indeed.
Bill Martin
Dave Goldman
<n...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
> we are going to really emphasize styling this season.
Why?
- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
The Martins
message
> > we are going to really emphasize styling this season.
>
> Why?
Because we haven't taught good dancing enough over the past year. And it
shows. 90% of our dancers have never done any other kind of dancing unless
it was shaking their booties to a rock band. At the last dance I got them
started learning what I call the "square dance walk", which is a bent-knee
shuffle where the feet hardly leave the floor. Moving from a circle to a
swing and, especially, vice versa is another. I have put a lot of effort
into coaxing them into giving weight in the allemandes, but its hard when
you are almost the only one in the crowd who knows how and you are up at the
mic instead of out dancing. Its like we are starting from scratch. I've been
practicing up on my basic buckdancing step so I can get people started on
that, too.
I realize now that if I don't expose them to a style challenge then they
will start pushing for more "advanced" dances, of which there really are
none in the kind of square dancing we do. A few have already been asking,
"When are we going to do the more advanced dances?" I believe its because I
have left a big hole in the dancing, failed to teach well the other half of
the dance, which is the style. Its like the waltz or the polka. Yes, there
are variations, but basically a waltz is a waltz. The challenge is in doing
it well, really getting the rhythm, the balance and the flow. Takes years of
practice for most people so I'm hoping to keep them busy and distracted.
Bill Martin
Dave Goldman
<n...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
> "Dave Goldman" <da...@remove-this-bit-ResearchSoftwareDesign.com> wrote in
> message
>
> > > we are going to really emphasize styling this season.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Because we haven't taught good dancing enough over the past year. And it
> shows.
> ...
> I realize now that if I don't expose them to a style challenge then they
> will start pushing for more "advanced" dances, of which there really are
> none in the kind of square dancing we do. A few have already been asking,
> "When are we going to do the more advanced dances?" I believe its because I
> have left a big hole in the dancing, failed to teach well the other half of
> the dance, which is the style. ...
Bill --
I think I hear two things here:
(1) Challenging your dancers with learning style is a defensive move, to
prevent them from becoming disenchanted with the "non-advanced" dances.
(2) Attention to style is part of "good dancing."
Apparently #2 is indeed something that you believe. (I don't recall you
particularly mentioning this in past discussions here.)
So would it be fair to say that your negative feelings toward
{some/all/whatever} contradancers and/or the {Portland/U.S./whatever}
contradance community stem not from a disagreement with the attitude that
attention to style enhances the dance experience, but rather to your
perception that concern about style has been given undue priority over
other concerns, such as having a good time and helping other dancers have
a good time?
The Martins
> I think I hear two things here:
> (1) Challenging your dancers with learning style is a defensive move, to
> prevent them from becoming disenchanted with the "non-advanced" dances.
> (2) Attention to style is part of "good dancing."
Yep.
> Apparently #2 is indeed something that you believe. (I don't recall you
> particularly mentioning this in past discussions here.)
Where you been, Doc? My mantra has always been: Dancing well is
quite a challenge, and challenging dance programs do nothing to enhance
dancing skills. Skilled dancing style is what makes dancing fun for the
people around you. A challenging dance program is a good way to scare off
newbies and the less driven dancers, but challenging dance programs require
neither style nor skilled dancing. Look at all the long-time but poor
dancers who self-judge themselves as qualified to attend a challenging
dance. I'd like to see the movers and shakers in the contra dance community
champion good dancing skills and forget about challenging contras.
> So would it be fair to say that your negative feelings toward
> {some/all/whatever} contradancers and/or the {Portland/U.S./whatever}
> contradance community stem not from a disagreement with the attitude that
> attention to style enhances the dance experience,
Am I I'm still beating my wife, did you say?
First, I have to separate my experience from that of the people who have
reported to me their negative experiences with contra dancing in the
Northwest. As a dancer I had a blast contra dancing, and I learned a lot
about dancing once I got a feeling for how good dancing felt. Like a
thousand other dancers, I drifted on to other interests and have not
attended a Portland contra in years, as a dancer. But it was the contras
that led to my interest in squares. As a newbie I think I fit into the
contra scene right away because I had already been dancing Irish ceilis and
the sets weekly for a year. Also, I started contra dancing in the early
1980s when the Portland dances were still kind of a hippie attraction, not
really high-powered, with occasional potluck dinners, and lots of sit-in
musicians. It was a pretty accessible scene compared to the last time I was
at a contra dance, I think in Seattle if I recall. I still enjoy dancing and
calling contras.
The people who volunteered (I have never brought the subject up)
their own negative experiences with Portland contra dancing were always
beginning dancers who had attended one or more contras. And their complaint
is always the same, that they felt they were definitely not welcome and that
the other dancers were too serious and snooty. Make of that what you will. I
take it with a grain of salt. If they had stuck it out they would have
eventually fit in. However, its too bad for the contra dance community that
even one person came away feeling like that. I'm telling you what probably
10 or 12 people have told me over the last couple of years. Their reception
was not the same as my positive experience, but I think the powers that be
ought to listen up.
The dance organizers and callers can do a lot to counteract the newbies
perception that they are not wanted. A floor full of whirling slamming
sweating zealots can be intimidating to an innocent newcomer. They need
active care and feeding.
> but rather to your perception that concern about
> style has been given undue priority over other concerns,
> such as having a good time and helping other dancers have
> a good time?
Now, you know that I've argued often that concern over programming
increasingly challenging figure sequences has been given priority over
having a good time and helping other dancers have a good time. More
attention is given to satisfying the obsession with challenging contra-only
dancing while teaching good dancing style is shunted off to workshops and
dance camps.
My own mistake is related. We've managed to foster a dance that is very fun
and inclusive, but our dancers lack the satisfying skills that can take even
the simplest dance to a higher level. We are taking up the challenge this
year. But our dances will remain fun and inclusive, for all ages.
Bill Martin
Dave Goldman
> > particularly mentioning this in past discussions here.)
>
> Where you been, Doc? My mantra has always been: Dancing well is
> quite a challenge, and challenging dance programs do nothing to enhance
> dancing skills. Skilled dancing style is what makes dancing fun for the
> people around you. A challenging dance program is a good way to scare off
> newbies and the less driven dancers, but challenging dance programs require
> neither style nor skilled dancing. Look at all the long-time but poor
> dancers who self-judge themselves as qualified to attend a challenging
> dance.
Bill, I knew you've always been against "challenging" dances. I didn't
realize that we were discussing that at the moment. Thanks for clarifying.
In the past, my impression was that you frowned upon (some) contradancers'
insistence on style and timing, and preferred to put on events where
people of all ages could just have a fun time. Was my impression wrong? Or
do you, maybe, not include "timing" as part of "style"? Or (as I tried to
suggest in my previous message) do you value both style and timing, but
not at the expense of people having a good time?
I'm not trying to trap you in an inconsistency or any such thing. Really!
I'm just surprised to hear you talking about teaching "style," and I'm
trying to reconcile this with what I recall your stated priorities to be
in the past.
> I'd like to see the movers and shakers in the contra dance community
> champion good dancing skills and forget about challenging contras.
I'm not personally moving or shaking a whole lot in the contra community
at the moment. But back when I was on the PCDC board, I was certainly one
of the people who caused some Saturday afternoon style workshops to occur.
And we also instituted a policy of having callers include a five-minute
session, on any style point of their choice, sometime during each regular
evening dance.
Last year one of my bands (now disbanded, alas) sponsored what was going
to be a quarterly series of "One Evening Dance Camps", which were split
into a style workshop followed by dances billed as "too advanced to be
done at a regular evening dance." But we told our callers that "advanced"
meant "requiring dance skills that the dancers would learn during the
workshop portion of the evening," as opposed to "challenging."
So I think we're in agreement on encouraging good dancing skills.
I suspect that I'm not understanding exactly what you mean when you keep
decrying "challenging dance programs." Frankly, I haven't seen a contra
crowd in Portland for many years now that could handle what I think of as
a challenging contra. And most of the callers around here (usually)
recognize that fact in their programming.
Possibly things have changed in the "challenging" arena during the many
years since you've attended a local contradance. Or possibly you and I
just have different definitions of "challenging."
> The people who volunteered (I have never brought the subject up)
> their own negative experiences with Portland contra dancing were always
> beginning dancers who had attended one or more contras. And their complaint
> is always the same, that they felt they were definitely not welcome and that
> the other dancers were too serious and snooty. Make of that what you will. I
> take it with a grain of salt. If they had stuck it out they would have
> eventually fit in. However, its too bad for the contra dance community that
> even one person came away feeling like that. I'm telling you what probably
> 10 or 12 people have told me over the last couple of years. Their reception
> was not the same as my positive experience, but I think the powers that be
> ought to listen up.
I'm _extremely_ concerned about what you've been hearing! (Though I don't
know that I'm personally much of a power that is...)
> The dance organizers and callers can do a lot to counteract the newbies
> perception that they are not wanted. A floor full of whirling slamming
> sweating zealots can be intimidating to an innocent newcomer. They need
> active care and feeding.
I'm very interested in any suggestions you may have as to specific things
dance organizers can do.
Whenever I make mid-evening announcements, I always ask the newcomers to
raise their hands, ask everyone to give them a hand (as in applause), and
ask everyone to do their best to make sure these folks have such a great
time that they'll come back the following week.
Obviously this isn't enough. What else would you suggest?
DMurphy139
>and inclusive, but our dancers lack the satisfying skills that can take even
>the simplest dance to a higher level. We are taking up the challenge this
>year. But our dances will remain fun and inclusive, for all ages.
>
>Bill Martin
Please post updates on how this goes. When I started doing IFD long ago, there
were 3 groups to choose from: Youth, CA Federation, and Hybrid. Youth had no
style, but was always exhilirating and jam packed. Federation was obsessed with
style and rarely had more than 10 people show up. Hybrid had 10 or 15 and
taught styling to those few from the Youth group who wanted more than just a
good time, but only in a non-fascistic atmosphere.
In other words, you seem to have chosen to morph a Youth group into a Hybrid --
a worthwhile but tricky process. Good luck. -- Denis
Mean Green Dancing Machine
The Martins <n...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
>
>We don't turn anyone away from our traditional type square dances, nor
>do we ask anyone to leave, nor do we single anyone out for a public
>or private dressing down. But I have made a point of not advertising
>our dances to the experienced folk, square and contra dance people
>in town. I want our scene to be inoculated against the excesses of
>the local experienced dancers until a real personality and style can
>develop.
I'm curious how you deal with hearing-impaired people. To the extent
that I'd be recognizable in your description, it would be because I'm
unable to hear you, and I'd be gamely trying to follow along using a
combination of my limited hearing, visual cues from other dances, and my
own dancing experience.
It has been my impression that "trad squares" tend to focus on the music
much more than the caller, to the detriment of anyone with a hearing
impairment. Would you say that's a fair description of your group as
well?
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2003 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"Why do you like my boyfriend to tie you up and beat me.?"
--ELIZA generates a poly moment
The Martins
> I'm curious how you deal with hearing-impaired people. To the extent
> that I'd be recognizable in your description, it would be because I'm
> unable to hear you, and I'd be gamely trying to follow along using a
> combination of my limited hearing, visual cues from other dances, and my
> own dancing experience.
I don't know the answer. I can see how contras, with their more regularly
repeating rhythms, would give you all kinds of cues to follow.
> It has been my impression that "trad squares" tend to focus on the music
> much more than the caller,
Just the opposite, the calling is more a part of the dance, on par with the
music, in squares than with contras. Square dance callers never shut up.
However, the beat is important, but really no more so than in contras.
Bill Martin
The Martins
> Bill, I knew you've always been against "challenging" dances.
Challenging dance programs, not challenging dances. I think folk dancing
should be friendly and inclusive, which a challenging dance program can't be
even if it makes all the people who attend happy.
> In the past, my impression was that you frowned upon (some) contradancers'
> insistence on style and timing,
I frown on dancers who want to exclude the beginners by holding an
evening of challenging dance, when many of the same dancers have not
yet mastered style, timing, phrasing, giving weight, swinging well and being
hospitable. They think beginners are a bother, when they themselves are
virtual beginners though they may have danced for months or years.
> Possibly things have changed in the "challenging" arena during the many
> years since you've attended a local contradance. Or possibly you and I
> just have different definitions of "challenging."
A little of both, I'm sure. I got bored and frustrated with some callers who
insisted upon teaching all their trophy dances. When they occasionally did
condescend to throw an unchallenging sop to the crowd they didn't take it
seriously and did a half-assed job of teaching - and their patronizing
attitude couldn't help but influence the dancers.
The last time I attended as a dancer years ago we danced all contras, three
in a row with TWO long swings each, and almost all were too challenging for
the crowd - or else the dancers became mentally and physically fatigued as
the assault rolled on. The very first dance had a hey for four (kiss off the
beginners), the second dance was becket formation (good grief.) Almost every
dance was a frustrating, lurching, gasping wreck. And much of the crowd
loved it because that was what they were used to. I took a break an hour
into the dance and watched a bunch of people I hadn't seen before as they
got their coats and left.
That was then. This is now: Over and over again I get the same message from
young people who try out the contras, and the message is that contra dancers
are unfriendly and unwelcoming and the dances are bewildering. Sure, its the
outsiders' perspective, maybe even misperception, but your new dancers will
be coming from the outside. Win them or lose them.
> I'm very interested in any suggestions you may have
> as to specific things dance organizers can do.
>
> Whenever I make mid-evening announcements, I always
> ask the newcomers to raise their hands, ask everyone to
> give them a hand (as in applause), and ask everyone to do
> their best to make sure these folks have such a great
> time that they'll come back the following week.
>
> Obviously this isn't enough. What else would you suggest?
You're right, its not enough. If the experienced dancers make perfectly
clear their irritation and impatience with newcomers, and if the dance
program caters exclusively to the center line zealots, then prompting a
little patronizing applause is but chaff in the breeze. Its fine to ask
callers to spend time on style, but relegating style to occasional workshops
can't possibly be productive. Dancing and dance figures belong together.
Hang on to your hats. Here is what I would suggest. Half-baked won't work:
Start up a contra series that is safely separated from the established
contra scene by aiming at a new customer base: people who don't know about
contra dancing. Variety - call more than contras. 5 contras is way more than
enough. 2 mixers in the first half, like Ted Sannella used to do. Use a
progressive dance program to build the newcomer's skills - don't put a hey
in the first dance, sheesh. Enough with the twisted becket dances. 3 or 4
square dances in the evening, keep them fairly simple to cut down the
teaching time. A couple of waltzes, and a schottische (easy to teach.).
Maybe a swing dance because people can fake it. They can't fake a hambo.
Maybe even start off with a couple of tiny kid dances. We've done that a few
times to good effect.
Keep it nice and easy at the beginning of the evening, with only short
walk-throughs needed for the first couple of dances, which leaves time to
incorporate style tips into the teaching. A mixer early on, another near the
break. With this program you will lose a lot of current dancers and pick up
a whole bunch of new dancers. Your old-fashioned contra dance will have an
inclusive, friendly tone and attract a largely different crowd. And keep it
that way. Don't let the old habits creep back in. If the hotshots and contra
nazis don't like it they will mostly stay away. Better that they stay away
until they understand that it is not a pre-school dance for newbies but is a
real oldtime traditional style dance party.
Now, how do you get that new customer base? Do it the way it worked out for
the Portland square dances. The contra musicians in town are talented and
their music can be highly entertaining. Why don't any of those bands play
out in the pubs? At farmer's markets? Wherever, just like the old-time bands
do that now play for the square dances. (The Alberta St. Pub and The White
Eagle have dance floors big enough for a short contra line if you want to
include some dancing.) At every public or private gig draw attention to your
email sign up sheet like we did. In a year or two you will have a couple of
hundred addresses of people who like contra dance music even if they have
never heard of a contra dance. When their favorite contra music band starts
advertising and promoting the new community style contra dance, those people
will follow the band. That's what happened to square dancing in Portland,
which is driven by the musicians and their fans.
Bill Martin
Mean Green Dancing Machine
The Martins <nkmREMO...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
>"Mean Green Dancing Machine" <aa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>>
>> much more than the caller,
>
>Just the opposite, the calling is more a part of the dance, on par with
>the music, in squares than with contras. Square dance callers never
>shut up. However, the beat is important, but really no more so than in
>contras.
That is precisely what I thought, actually: from my POV, that which is
vocal but not part of a call is part of the music -- and it's far worse
than too-loud instrumental music.
I find it bitterly amusing and ironic that while you're railing about
making dances more accessible, what you describe would be (and is, IME)
far less accessible for me than what you complain about. I know enough
people with "normal" hearing who have problems hearing in noise that I
know I'm far from alone.
Dave Goldman
<nkmREMO...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
> > Whenever I make mid-evening announcements, I always
> > ask the newcomers to raise their hands, ask everyone to
> > give them a hand (as in applause), and ask everyone to do
> > their best to make sure these folks have such a great
> > time that they'll come back the following week.
> >
> > Obviously this isn't enough. What else would you suggest?
>
> You're right, its not enough. If the experienced dancers make perfectly
> clear their irritation and impatience with newcomers, and if the dance
> program caters exclusively to the center line zealots, then prompting a
> little patronizing applause is but chaff in the breeze. Its fine to ask
> callers to spend time on style, but relegating style to occasional workshops
> can't possibly be productive. Dancing and dance figures belong together.
>
> Hang on to your hats. Here is what I would suggest. Half-baked won't work:
>
> Start up a contra series that is safely separated from the established
> contra scene by aiming at a new customer base: people who don't know about
> contra dancing.
> ...
> Now, how do you get that new customer base? Do it the way it worked out for
> the Portland square dances. The contra musicians in town are talented and
> their music can be highly entertaining. Why don't any of those bands play
> out in the pubs? At farmer's markets?
> ...
(Just for the record, a few of the local contra bands _do_ play at pubs
and at farmers' markets.)
Thanks for your feedback and suggestions. I recognize that you offer them
sincerely and with good intentions, and appreciate the time you've put
into writing your posts.
Your proposed solution is to give up on ever making the various current
contradance series in Portland more beginner-friendly, and to instead
start a new series from scratch, following the model so successfully (if
partly accidentally) pioneered by the old-time square dances.
And I think you're right, in that what's worked for your square dances --
a lot of exciting and talented young musicians getting into the music and
creating an audience ready to learn to dance to that music -- could work
equally well for contradances.
If someone has the energy to work on that, I'm all for it. I'll be happy
to play at any of their gigs.
But I personally have neither the time or energy to organize a brand-new
dance series. And as an over-scheduled, middle-aged, very part-time
musician of only mediocre talent, I'm not qualified to join the sort of
regularly gigging band you're describing.
Besides, I have no reason to believe that the current series cannot be
salvaged. For what little they're worth, here are a few things you don't
know because you haven't visited for a long time:
- The vast majority of the experienced-but-perpetually-bad-dancers that
you knew no longer attend, and for the most part have NOT been replaced by
another generation of e-b-p-b-d;
- Nevertheless, all the local contra series continue to usually be very
well attended;
- Over the past couple of years we have finally gained a (small, but
persistent) smattering of regulars in their 20s.
In other words, although I am VERY unhappy anytime I hear about any
newcomer trying out a local contradance and finding the scene in any way
unwelcoming or discouraging, and although I am actively interested in any
ideas to minimize such occurrences, I am not currently worried about the
long-term viability of the local contradance scene. Even in its currently
suboptimal state it is not dwindling away for lack of new returning
dancers.
So, as the only suggestion you can offer me is to kill the (VERY much
still alive) patient in order to save it, I guess I'll instead just have
to continue working out my own patronizing, half-baked measures toward
making our existing dances more fun for new dancers.
Nancy
> In article <vmpkmq3...@corp.supernews.com>,
> The Martins <nkmREMO...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
> >"Mean Green Dancing Machine" <aa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>
> I find it bitterly amusing and ironic that while you're railing about
> making dances more accessible, what you describe would be (and is, IME)
> far less accessible for me than what you complain about. I know enough
> people with "normal" hearing who have problems hearing in noise that I
> know I'm far from alone.
Golly, do I have a lot to say about this thread. However, I'll keep
mostly silent and let y'all over on the Left Coast duke it out. But, I
will make a comment on what will allow people who are hearing impaired
enjoy a square dance more. Let me preface this by saying that I know
hearing impaired square dancers (traditional), that I have taught
people with hearing impairments, and that my main interests and what
gets me up out of bed in the morning is thinking about how to
accommodate and include everyone in any activity they care to be
included in. "Modifications and accommodations R us", in other words.
Two thoughts to make square dancing more enjoyable for someone who has
a hard time hearing:
1. Careful teaching by the caller (and paying attention by the dancer)
will go a long way. If the caller changes things while the dance is in
progress, a helpful partner and/or square is nice.
2. More practice square dancing. If you're used to square dancing
(rather than contra dancing, break dancing, swing dancing, or anything
else), then you will be used to the "vocabulary" of square dancing and
will be able to better figure out what might be happening next. It's
the same concept as why I can probably sing along with most gospel
music, even if I don't really know the particular song. I've done it
all my life, so I know that if the first syllable is "sanc", it will
likely be followed with "tified". Play the odds.
If one is not used to listening to a caller during a dance, which a
contra dancer would not be, then there is a huge "figure/ground"
problem in trying to figure out if the caller is giving direction or
just supplying patter. On the other hand, a good caller will look out
on the floor of a square (or a contra) dance and be able to fix it on
the fly- either supplying more distinct cues, or dropping the patter,
or both.
So, I feel sure that Bill, and other good square dance callers, could
and would make square dancing an enjoyable experience for someone with
a hearing, visual, cognitive, or other imairment.
Good luck!
Nancy
The Martins
"Nancy" <mam...@goboone.net> wrote
> So, I feel sure that Bill, and other good square dance callers, could
> and would make square dancing an enjoyable experience for someone with
> a hearing, visual, cognitive, or other imairment.
I don't get the choice - my wife is blind! The other night a paraplegic guy
in a wheelchair danced the Virginia Reel, a couple of square dances and a
waltz (his wife sat on his lap). I didn't have to tell him or the people
around him to improvise and adapt. They did it on their own, and they were
all beginners.
But I'm glad you and Mean Green are discussing how hearing-impaired
people fit into the dancing. I have hardly any experience with that. At some
of the Portland Country Dance Community's family dances a mother brings her
little boy, who has almost no hearing at all. Mom is great at teaching him
during the walk-throughs. She's the one who skillfully signals the kid, not
me. Sometimes they drop out of the goofy and unpredictable dances, which has
goaded me into finding other more suitable ones.
Bill Martin
The Martins
> Your proposed solution is to give up on ever making the various current
> contradance series in Portland more beginner-friendly, and to instead
> start a new series from scratch, following the model so successfully (if
> partly accidentally) pioneered by the old-time square dances.
I don't have enough imagination to be a pioneer. I used the long tradition
of community social dances in North America for my model.
Of course, contra dancing ain't going to die out. Why would it and why
should it? What I'm talking about is my perception that the dances are
unwelcoming to beginners based upon the experiences of a number of people
who have talked to me about it. The problem of an unfriendly face can be
dealt with or lived with. The nature of the dance is a choice, not a
naturally evolved state.
The face presented to newcomers, in other words the behavior of the dancers
and the accessility of the dance program, can teach both the new dancers and
the old hands that new people, and all the people present, are valued. The
alternative is to validate a bad attitude.
> So, as the only suggestion you can offer me is to kill the (VERY much
> still alive) patient in order to save it,
Now, you know it won't kill contra dancing to make it more
beginner-friendly. Its fine to give newcomers a big old smile, but you need
to change the dance program in a way that will reform the unwelcoming
personality of the dance. Or admit that its okay to be unfriendly to
newcomers. And bandaids won't fix what is fundamentally flawed. Do I
have to tell a doctor that?
Bill Martin
Dave Goldman
<nkmREMO...@bubbaguitar.com> wrote:
> Of course, contra dancing ain't going to die out. Why would it and why
> should it? What I'm talking about is my perception that the dances are
> unwelcoming to beginners based upon the experiences of a number of people
> who have talked to me about it.
Which I have thanked you for passing on, and which I have never denied,
and which I have expressed great concern about myself.
> The problem of an unfriendly face can be
> dealt with or lived with. The nature of the dance is a choice, not a
> naturally evolved state.
Yes, which is why I asked for suggestions about improving our several
existing contradance series. To which you replied that the current dances
are unfixable, and the only solution would be to start a fresh new series.
> > So, as the only suggestion you can offer me is to kill the (VERY much
> > still alive) patient in order to save it,
>
> Now, you know it won't kill contra dancing to make it more
> beginner-friendly.
And you know that that is not what I meant by my statement.
> Its fine to give newcomers a big old smile, but you need
> to change the dance program in a way that will reform the unwelcoming
> personality of the dance.
Okay. Sorry it's taken me so long to get your point: we need to program
evenings that are not full of "challenging" dances. Then beginners will
not have a negative first impression of contradancing, and also the
perpetually bad dancers may stop coming.
> Or admit that its okay to be unfriendly to newcomers.
If you mean "decide" that it's okay to be unfriendly to newcomers, then I
guess I agree that that would be an option. Though not one that I'm
interested in pursuing.
> And bandaids won't fix what is fundamentally flawed.
And the fundamental flaw is "challenging" dances. Okay. Thanks.
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Nancy <mam...@goboone.net> wrote:
>
>Two thoughts to make square dancing more enjoyable for someone who has
>a hard time hearing:
>
>1. Careful teaching by the caller (and paying attention by the dancer)
>will go a long way. If the caller changes things while the dance is in
>progress, a helpful partner and/or square is nice.
That would help, yes.
>2. More practice square dancing. If you're used to square dancing
>(rather than contra dancing, break dancing, swing dancing, or anything
>else), then you will be used to the "vocabulary" of square dancing and
>will be able to better figure out what might be happening next. It's
>the same concept as why I can probably sing along with most gospel
>music, even if I don't really know the particular song. I've done it
>all my life, so I know that if the first syllable is "sanc", it will
>likely be followed with "tified". Play the odds.
>
>If one is not used to listening to a caller during a dance, which a
>contra dancer would not be, then there is a huge "figure/ground"
>problem in trying to figure out if the caller is giving direction or
>just supplying patter. On the other hand, a good caller will look out
>on the floor of a square (or a contra) dance and be able to fix it on
>the fly- either supplying more distinct cues, or dropping the patter,
>or both.
I'll note that I've been a Plus-level square dancer for more than
fifteen years, longer than I've been a contra dancer (though I dropped
out for more than a decade all told, due to a variety of factors,
including my worsening hearing). Even in "straight" MWSD, I have always
had much more trouble with singing sets than patter sets.
Then again, most of my square dance experience is with callers where
playing the odds is pretty much guaranteed to screw a square. ;-)
(Does the name "John Sybalsky" mean anything to you?) These days, the
trad squares I run into at contra dancing are filled with people who
don't know square dancing, which puts me at a double handicap.
What I used to like about square dancing (and still like to a certain
extent) is the challenge, but it doesn't feel all that much like
dancing. (I note with amusement that someone I met a few months ago
took the trouble to look up in Gooja an almost identical comment I made
a decade ago here on rec.folk-dancing.)
>So, I feel sure that Bill, and other good square dance callers, could
>and would make square dancing an enjoyable experience for someone with
>a hearing, visual, cognitive, or other imairment.
Could, yes. I was picking up on his concentration on the music; IME
that's a sure tip that I won't be getting much help from the caller.
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2003 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."
--Anatole France
The Martins
> > And bandaids won't fix what is fundamentally flawed.
> And the fundamental flaw is "challenging" dances. Okay. Thanks.
You're almost there, Dave. The fundamental flaw is not challenging dance,
its a dance program that leaves the newcomers in the dust. Challenging
dances are not the evil, but a program that places them without regard for
the learning curve of the new dancers is flawed. Unless that dance program
is meant to discourage beginners, in which case it would do the job.
Bill Martin
Donna Richoux
I'm glad this subject is under discussion. Here's some related anecdotal
evidence:
1. This summer, my daughter brought her best friend with us to the
Cambridge, MA dance (a big, high-paced series). The friend was pulled,
dazed, through one dance, than sat down the rest of the first half, when
she asked to go home, so we all left. Naturally it was a disappointment.
2. My daughter, 16, likes to contradance but only because a week at
Pinewoods, two different years, broke the ice. There, she danced in
age-related groups and a bit in the general dancing. (It was all the
*non*-dance activity that got her to agree to go to camp.)
3. I am positive that I never would have started contradancing if in
1980 it was like it is now. I needed several years of experience with
mixed programs (like Ted Sanella & Tony Saletan at Brimmer & May),
simple stuff just to build up confidence in left and right, and to learn
just to look and listen instead of trying to "figure out" what was going
to happen next.
It was still fun every time, which brought us back. We had a different
sort of fun, maybe. There was time for clowning around, for clogging in
place as the inactive couple, even a little conversation.
Over the years, as dances switched to contras-only and dropped the
beginner time, I have seen maybe *two* graceful, athletic, coordinated
friends get quickly (first-night successes) into the hang of
contradancing. They are rare exceptions. I'm afraid that only such
winners are going to be able to join the pool, now. Whereas the Boston
contradance crowd I know was *built*, frankly, out of a lot of
non-athletic, awkward computer nerds... who *developed* grace because of
the nature of the activity.
Are we cutting down the tree as we are climbing it?
--
Troubled -- Donna Richoux
The Martins
> Okay. Sorry it's taken me so long to get your point: we need to program
> evenings that are not full of "challenging" dances. Then beginners will
> not have a negative first impression of contradancing, and also the
> perpetually bad dancers may stop coming.
I never said I want the perpetually bad dancers to stay away. I was pointing
out the irony of the situation, that many chronically bad dancers think they
need to exclude beginners in order to have a great dancing experience. Truth
is, they can have that high during the simplest contra dance if they'd pay
attention and learn to dance.
Bill Martin
Peanutjake
steps was no problem for the members of the group. We added a large drum to the music. Those who had
no hearing at all could feel the vibration of the drum and follow the beat.
PJ
Mean Green Dancing Machine
IFD is a lot easier, because you only need to learn the steps, then
synchronize with the music. Contra is similar (except for the occasional
contra that gets called).
Dudley Laufman
not having an outfit like the western square dancers do, but bi god they do.
I even saw a place in Massachusetts last year was selling contra dance
clothing. And the "scary bright eyed look" Perfect. Well, we've had some
good time with these folks, but I must say I think most of them have spent
or are spending too much time in school, so their whole life is like they
are getting ready for a test, having to hurry to class, it's a wonder they
take their backpacks off to do their gypsys.
I guess New Hampshire isn't populated enough to support an ongoing family
type barn/square dance series. Every week we have anywhere from one to five
barn/square dances someplace in the state or Massachusetts...in schools,
elderhostels, churches, family reunions, etc, most of them private,
certainly not part of a series.
There about a dozen public contra dance series in New Hampshire. Most of
these are contras only, and half of those are fast moving. But some of them
are family friendly. We get to do some of these dances from time to time
and we make sure that everyone understands that we run a family oriented
barn/square dance. If the crowd can handle contras (cast offs, chains,
etc.)( we don't do heys or gypsies) then we will do a Lady of the Lake,
Speed the Plow, Tempest. The contra clones think it "refreshing" but would
get "bored" with a steady diet. What does "bored" mean? & challenge?
challenging? The word doesn't sound very friendly...sort of like a "in yer
face" word.
We do an annual Old Phardtz Dance in Nelson.
Draw close to 100...mostly folks who used to dance there regularly years
ago. Woodchoppers, loggers, farmers, factory workers, some teachers,
artists. We do 5 contras...Lady Walpole's Reel, Morning Star, Money Musk,
Petronella (the old way) and Hull's Victry. No walk thrus. Two sets of
singing quadrilles. 15 minute break between each dance, out to the car fer
a drink. Lots of visiting. Great time.
At our house here in Canterbury we have 4 - 5 kitchen junkets a year.
Mostly locals...neighbors.
Several fiddles, banjo, harmonica all tucked into a corner. Virginia Reels,
Pauls Jones, and Portland Fancies, polks and waltzes. No teaching or walk
thrus. Money Musk at the end if they are up for it.
The tunes we use are very northern cuz that's where we are. Jigs and
reels....some French chunes. Campbells Are Coming, Come Up The Back Stairs,
Dusty Bob, Arkansas Traveler, Keel Row, Maggie In The Wood, Polly Put The
Kettle on...Reel St Hubert, Reel Ti - Jean. Like that.
I have a hard time believing that 100 years ago in rural communities
anywhere, working class folks would be clamoring after learning new dances
all the time. They probably didn't dance once a week, and when they did get
together they enjoyed doing the dances they knew over and over, and danced
them well in the bargain. And visit with friends and enjoy food a drink. I
doubt if anyone taught a damn thing, except among the gentry who could
afford dancing masters.
Virginia Reels and Pauls Jones were/are done in Quebec and New England. The
Portland Fancy or Soldiers Joy is done as a couple visiting couples around
the room similar to an
appalachian circle dance. There are lots of communities here in New
England that never did contras. Just the reels and circles and maybe some
squares. Even over in Maine they only did one contra...Lady of the Lake,
and mostly it was a wild affair with no heed of phrasing. Horrors.
I HOPE THIS IS A REAL CONTRA DANCE
Is this dance gender free
but w/gender balance*?
Decible free, scream free
w/o deodorants?
Is this gig free of Christmas?
I trust there's no squares,
all contras improper
w/those gypsies and heys,
neighbor swings and w/partner,
and intense eye contact please,
and the last dance of the night
will be the only waltz, right?
Oh, and will I need gloves?
(No to most of the above).
In my Land's End back pack
do I have the right T shirts,
tan, blue, green, yep,
shoes that won't scuff,
water bottle, fan, towel, Birks,
head band, neck scarf, all of my stuff.
Cell phone is turned off.
*Gender balance…that's a new step.
Dudley Laufman
Canterbury, NH
--
*************************************
Upcoming dances:
Sept 28 Roxbury, MA
Oct 4 Shaker Village Harvest Day
Oct 4 Nelson Old Time Dance
Complete schedule on our website www.laufman.org
TWO FIDDLES
Jacqueline & Dudley Laufman
PO Box 61
Canterbury, NH 03224
603-783-4719
lau...@totalnetnh.net
The Martins
"Dudley Laufman" <lau...@totalnetnh.net> wrote
> 15 minute break between each dance, out to the car fer
> a drink. Lots of visiting. Great time.
Let's walk over by Pete LeBerge's car. I hear he's got the good stuff.
> I HOPE THIS IS A REAL CONTRA DANCE
> I trust there's no squares,
> all contras improper
> w/those gypsies and heys,
Becket, with double gypsies and 5/8 heys.
I tricked some dancers into enthusiastically forming up for an
Applachian circle by telling them it was a becket sicilian.
> Oh, and will I need gloves?
After posting this poem you might need boxing gloves!
Bill Martin