Laptop in Europe ? ? ?
Ray Jenkins
at home with Verizon dial-up as a back-up when traveling in the USA. I have
a Linksys wireless card in the laptop.
My questions are:
What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
How do I connect to the Internet in either hotels or private homes once I am
there?
Peter T. Breuer
> I am planning a trip to Europe and want to take my laptop. I use Verizon DSL
> at home with Verizon dial-up as a back-up when traveling in the USA. I have
> a Linksys wireless card in the laptop.
> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
None. You don't.
> How do I connect to the Internet in either hotels or private homes once I am
> there?
Depends.
Probably using an ethernet cable. I don't know how many hotels have
internet available to all customers - many have a business center where
there may well be internet. I usually go to an internet cafe and ask to
connect my laptop directly to their net.
Peter
Ray Jenkins
I assume my Linksys WPC11 card would be suitable for connecting in those
internet cafes?
Also, how much does it cost to use the facilities of an internet cafe?
-- Ray
"Peter T. Breuer" <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
news:ngkdfb...@news.it.uc3m.es...
OVO@janus.hr Goran
> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>
different socket from the US, and UK uses the third standard. You laptop
charger I presume can use 110 V and 220 V electricity.
Goran
Peter T. Breuer
> "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message news:ngkdfb...@news.it.uc3m.es...
>> Ray Jenkins <rayj.baltDELETE@verizondotnet> wrote:
>> > How do I connect to the Internet in either hotels or private homes once I am
>>
>> Probably using an ethernet cable. I don't know how many hotels have
>> internet available to all customers - many have a business center where
>> there may well be internet. I usually go to an internet cafe and ask to
>> connect my laptop directly to their net.
> I assume my Linksys WPC11 card would be suitable for connecting in those
> internet cafes?
Unless you are talking about wireless, the card is irrelevant. I was
talking about ethernet. Maybe some cafes have wireless, but I've never
seen it, probably because anybody could sit on the pavement outside and
use it ...
> Also, how much does it cost to use the facilities of an internet cafe?
Uh, usually you buy either a cafe and 30mins, for maybe 3 or 4 dollars
(euros), or more time and more sustenance, which works out cheaper if
you sit there for a while at a time. It depends on the region. My last
experience was in Nice, France a month or so ago, and I generally used
about an hour at a time and had something to drink while there. It cost
maybe 50% more than an ordinary cafe, but the region is ultra expensive
anyway, so I didn't notice. Americans wandering in tended to just use
the workstations with their mswindows setup, which maybe was a bit
cheaper. I don't know. On their net I don't recall if I needed to get
an IP by dhcp or not - it was clear I think I recall from the packets
passing by what their setup was, and it was a NAT router translating
packets from the local net (192.168.something), so all I had to do was
name their router as gateway, select an unused IP, and set it as an IP
alias for it on my ethernet device. Probably that all happens
automatically if you use windows.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
>>
>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>
> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
at the same time with a pencil or something.
> different socket from the US, and UK uses the third standard. You laptop
> charger I presume can use 110 V and 220 V electricity.
All chargers made within the last many years do so.
Peter
Ray Jenkins
I think your best suggestion is to leave the laptop at home. I will be in
large cities for the most part.
-- Ray
"Sami Sihvonen" <sa...@sihvonen.info> wrote in message
news:bff079.3...@sami.sihvonen.info...
> In article <tgsSa.46109$kI5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
> "Ray Jenkins" <rayj.baltDELETE@verizonDOTnet> wrote:
>
> >I am planning a trip to Europe and want to take my laptop.
> ...
> >What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>
> Make sure your AC adapter works with up to 230 volts of power, usually
> they all do that. In some older models there might be a special switch
> that you need to use to select the amounts of volts given.
>
> >How do I connect to the Internet in either hotels or private homes once I
am
> >there?
>
> Since your laptop has a modem this is easy. Just go to your hotel room,
> pull the cord from the _behind of the telephone_ and hook it up to your
> telephone. Before going on the trip find out internet operators in the
> country where you are going that provide *free* internet access, all you
> need to do is register and pay normal phone charges. For example here in
> Finland it costs $0.12 for starting the call and $0.012 cents/minute, so
> going on-line for one hour costs only $0.72 :)
>
> Another way is to forget your laptop and use computers available for
> public access. Across all Europe you can find coffee shops, that are
> called Internet Cafe's, that allow people to use internet. They are
> usually very cheap, for few dollars you have coffee/tea/softdrink and
> a desktop PC with a fast internet connection available for an hour.
> They have floppy drives that allow you to transfer stuff you need to
> your laptop. They also usually have printers available, if you need
> to print something.
>
> Third way is to use GSM900/GSM1800/GPRS cellular telephone, you can buy
> a cheap used phone or even rent a cellphone in some countries. All you
> need is a cable to connect it to your laptop and buy a prepaid SIM-card
> for it from a local operator. Now you can use the method above to have
> mobile internet access. For example in Finland you can get a second hand
> used telephone for 15 dollars, prepaid SIM-cards are sold at 50 dollars
> (includes 40 dollars call time).
>
> --
> Sami Sihvonen <sa...@sihvonen.info> <use...@surfeu.fi> <bu...@fix.no>
> Senior System Administrator, Finland <URL:http://www.sihvonen.info/>
> Tel. +358-41-3-746553 Fax. +358-41-2-746533 Data. +358-41-1-746553
> My public GNU Privacy Guard key http://sihvonen.info/public-key.html
Gary Tait
<p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>Goran <goran.maravicMAKNI O...@janus.hr> wrote:
>>>
>>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>>
>> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
>
>Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
>country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
>Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
>has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
>will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
>at the same time with a pencil or something.
>
It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
that has a fuse in it.
Peter T. Breuer
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:53:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>Goran <goran.maravicMAKNI O...@janus.hr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>>>
>>> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
>>
>>Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
>>country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
>>Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
>>has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
>>will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
>>at the same time with a pencil or something.
>>
> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
might be 13A.
And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
nonthinking speciousnesses ...
> or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
> that has a fuse in it.
Uh, if you had a charger without a fuse in, that would be a miracle.
Ditto laptop. Besides, having a fuse in is not directly related to
having an earth! You will find the fuse is inline with the current
input, not the earth.
Peter
Gary Tait
<p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:53:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
>> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>
>>>Goran <goran.maravicMAKNI O...@janus.hr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>>>>
>>>> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
>>>
>>>Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
>>>country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
>>>Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
>>>has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
>>>will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
>>>at the same time with a pencil or something.
>>>
>
>> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
>
>Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
>might be 13A.
>
Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.
>And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
>continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
>Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
>nonthinking speciousnesses ...
>
Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.
>> or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
>> that has a fuse in it.
>
>Uh, if you had a charger without a fuse in, that would be a miracle.
>Ditto laptop. Besides, having a fuse in is not directly related to
>having an earth! You will find the fuse is inline with the current
>input, not the earth.
>
On UK plugs, you will find a fuse in the plug.
The fuse doesn't protect only the equipment, but the linecord too, if
the equipment doesn't have its own fuse.
You tell me what is going to protect an 18 AWG (or its metric
equivalent), from a 30A supply.
>Peter
I suggest you read a few threads in the forum below. I'll even copy
this discussion there, whether you want to or not, just to show your
ignorance of UK electrical safety.
<http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Non-US+Electrical+Systems+|AMP|+Trades&number=9&DaysPrune=1000&LastLogin=>
Peter T. Breuer
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:44:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:53:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
>>> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>
>>>>Goran <goran.maravicMAKNI O...@janus.hr> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>>>>>
>>>>> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
>>>>
>>>>Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
>>>>country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
>>>>Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
>>>>has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
>>>>will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
>>>>at the same time with a pencil or something.
>>>>
>>
>>> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
>>
>>Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
>>might be 13A.
> Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
> themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.
The wall sockets (outlets) are not usually fused either in britain or on
the continent, but the whole circuit definitely is always fused at the
fuse box.
It will be fused at the same amperage as the plugs to be used in the
sockets attached to that ring. That is, 5A for a 5A circuit, for which
you will be using plugs fused at 5A - if you haven't decided instead to
fuse the plug at a level of the appliance it's connected to! Which may
be variously less or more than 5A. If more, then you could blow the
circuit fuse.
>>And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
>>continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
>>Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
>>nonthinking speciousnesses ...
> Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
> perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.
A continental plug is generally not fused. I haven't ever seen one
except in the "never sold" section of market stalls (there's the big
market outside my house every sunday). British plugs generally are
fused. I'm looking at the continental plug on a computer power cable
now, and it says 10-16A, 250V, and it's not fused. Amazingly, it does
have an earth wire, but no earth pin. Instead there is a metal
baseplate with a hole in to which the earth wire is attached. The hole
takes a pin from the socket. There are very very few sockets with earth
pins in - looking at my (continental) wall I see that the red emergency
circuit from the building UPS has one socket with such a pin, the rest
are without it. That's 6 sockets I looked at.
>>> or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
>>> that has a fuse in it.
>>
>>Uh, if you had a charger without a fuse in, that would be a miracle.
>>Ditto laptop. Besides, having a fuse in is not directly related to
>>having an earth! You will find the fuse is inline with the current
>>input, not the earth.
> On UK plugs, you will find a fuse in the plug.
Yes.
> The fuse doesn't protect only the equipment, but the linecord too, if
> the equipment doesn't have its own fuse.
Well, whatever.
> You tell me what is going to protect an 18 AWG (or its metric
> equivalent), from a 30A supply.
Pass. Me no parse. What's an AWG? Are you talking about an equipment
that can take only 18A being plugged into a circuit fused at 30A? Its
own fuses should save it. If it's not fused and it takes 18A normally,
complain to somebody.
Peter
Gary Tait
wrote:
>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:44:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
>> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>
>>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:53:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
>>>> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Goran <goran.maravicMAKNI O...@janus.hr> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What kind of electricity issues can I expect, and how do I resolve these?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You will need to get an adapter for electrical sockets. Europe uses a
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, that goes without saying. Plug types are not the same from
>>>>>country to country! That's why they sell those things in airports.
>>>>>Most of europe uses plugs with a pair of thin round pins. The UK
>>>>>has thick three-pin square pins in the plugs. But a continental plug
>>>>>will fit into a british socket, if you hold open the earth pin flap
>>>>>at the same time with a pencil or something.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
>>>
>>>Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
>>>might be 13A.
>
>> Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
>> themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.
>
>The wall sockets (outlets) are not usually fused either in britain or on
>the continent, but the whole circuit definitely is always fused at the
>fuse box.
>
They are, not locally at the socket, but at the consumer unit.
>It will be fused at the same amperage as the plugs to be used in the
>sockets attached to that ring. That is, 5A for a 5A circuit, for which
>you will be using plugs fused at 5A - if you haven't decided instead to
>fuse the plug at a level of the appliance it's connected to! Which may
>be variously less or more than 5A. If more, then you could blow the
>circuit fuse.
That is where you are not getting it. UK outlets, are protected at the
consumer unit at 30A, to protect the wiring in the wall, the plug on
the appliance is fused to protect its linecord, and maybe the
appliance. If you manage plug linecord from the continent into a UK
outlet, it is essentially not being protected at all, by anything that
will save it.
>
>>>And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
>>>continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
>>>Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
>>>nonthinking speciousnesses ...
>
>> Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
>> perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.
>
>A continental plug is generally not fused. I haven't ever seen one
>except in the "never sold" section of market stalls (there's the big
>market outside my house every sunday). British plugs generally are
>fused. I'm looking at the continental plug on a computer power cable
Not genrally, they are, no matter what, unless it is an illegal
device, or something you plug into a shaver outlet.
>now, and it says 10-16A, 250V, and it's not fused. Amazingly, it does
>have an earth wire, but no earth pin. Instead there is a metal
>baseplate with a hole in to which the earth wire is attached. The hole
>takes a pin from the socket. There are very very few sockets with earth
The hole is for French/Belgian outlets, where a ground pin is part of
the outlet. Shucko outlets (in germany an other places), have a
pressure contact that mates with that metal on the side.
>pins in - looking at my (continental) wall I see that the red emergency
>circuit from the building UPS has one socket with such a pin, the rest
>are without it. That's 6 sockets I looked at.
>
>>>> or so, so there is quite a bit of current there. You NEED an adaptor
>>>> that has a fuse in it.
>>>
>>>Uh, if you had a charger without a fuse in, that would be a miracle.
>>>Ditto laptop. Besides, having a fuse in is not directly related to
>>>having an earth! You will find the fuse is inline with the current
>>>input, not the earth.
>
>> On UK plugs, you will find a fuse in the plug.
>
>Yes.
>
>> The fuse doesn't protect only the equipment, but the linecord too, if
>> the equipment doesn't have its own fuse.
>
>Well, whatever.
>
>> You tell me what is going to protect an 18 AWG (or its metric
>> equivalent), from a 30A supply.
>
>Pass. Me no parse. What's an AWG? Are you talking about an equipment
>that can take only 18A being plugged into a circuit fused at 30A? Its
>own fuses should save it. If it's not fused and it takes 18A normally,
>complain to somebody.
>
>Peter
It is ne way we discuss wire size in North America.
I am talking about a linecord capable of carrying only 7-10A of
current being protected by a 30A fuse or MCB. What fuses may or may
not be in the equipment is irrelavent, it is the linecord's safety in
question.
Peter T. Breuer
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:39:38 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:44:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>>>> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
>>>>
>>>>Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
>>>>might be 13A.
>>
>>> Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
>>> themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.
>>
>>The wall sockets (outlets) are not usually fused either in britain or on
>>the continent, but the whole circuit definitely is always fused at the
>>fuse box.
> They are, not locally at the socket, but at the consumer unit.
Uh .... are you saying what I am saying, but calling "at the fuse box",
"at the consumer unit"? Is that some sort of orwellian speak? What's
the circumlocution for? I kind of object to the replacement of plain
speech by jargon.
>>It will be fused at the same amperage as the plugs to be used in the
>>sockets attached to that ring. That is, 5A for a 5A circuit, for which
>>you will be using plugs fused at 5A - if you haven't decided instead to
>>fuse the plug at a level of the appliance it's connected to! Which may
>>be variously less or more than 5A. If more, then you could blow the
>>circuit fuse.
> That is where you are not getting it. UK outlets, are protected at the
> consumer unit at 30A, to protect the wiring in the wall, the plug on
If by "consumer unit", you mean "fuse box", I assure you they're fused
at the ampage appropriate to the circuit, and while I haven't see the
wiring of many UK houses, I have seen the wiring of the few I have seen
for many many years. I.e. each individual circuit will have either a
3A or 5A or 13A fuse in, at the fusebox.
I won't go to the fusebox on my continental wall, but I recall that it
contains at least 4 rows of 8 trigger throw switches, triggered at
ampages appropriate to the circuits. In addition, there is a single
throw switch on the incoming line, triggered at the current level I
have contracted for overall.
In the UK, instead of trigger switches, there are fuses in the fusebox,
but then the houses are generally much older. I haven't lived in a
house in the UK less than a hundred years old.
> the appliance is fused to protect its linecord, and maybe the
What the heck is a "linecord"? Do you mean the power cord? Why would
anybody care about it? Appliances are fused to protect themselves from
meltdown. And the house too, in the unlikely event that some other
fuse doesn't blow.
> appliance. If you manage plug linecord from the continent into a UK
> outlet, it is essentially not being protected at all, by anything that
> will save it.
Uh, what? Why should anyone care about a power cord? The appliance
will be fused, and if it's not, then somebody has a problem if the
appliance develops a short, but the power cord is the last thing in the
world anyone will worry about, particularly as it can either take
umpteen amps or not, and in case of not, it'll melt and act like a fuse
itself. If it can, it'll be perfectly happy, and the circuit fuse will
blow instead.
>>>>And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
>>>>continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
>>>>Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
>>>>nonthinking speciousnesses ...
>>
>>> Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
>>> perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.
>>
>>A continental plug is generally not fused. I haven't ever seen one
>>except in the "never sold" section of market stalls (there's the big
>>market outside my house every sunday). British plugs generally are
>>fused. I'm looking at the continental plug on a computer power cable
> Not genrally, they are, no matter what, unless it is an illegal
> device, or something you plug into a shaver outlet.
?? Oh, you mean british plugs are always fused. Yes, I would agree that
coincides with my experience. But I don't know if that is the absolute
rule.
>>now, and it says 10-16A, 250V, and it's not fused. Amazingly, it does
>>have an earth wire, but no earth pin. Instead there is a metal
>>baseplate with a hole in to which the earth wire is attached. The hole
>>takes a pin from the socket. There are very very few sockets with earth
> The hole is for French/Belgian outlets, where a ground pin is part of
> the outlet. Shucko outlets (in germany an other places), have a
> pressure contact that mates with that metal on the side.
I see. Looking at some more sockets here, there are some with metal
leaf springs in the side wall that make contact with the metal
baseplate where it is exposed in the side of the plug too. But from
experience either the cords or the socket wiring will inevitably be
without the earth wire, and most sockets don't have the leaf spring
arrangement. In particular, extension cords leading to expansion
umm socket-arrays don't.
>>pins in - looking at my (continental) wall I see that the red emergency
>>circuit from the building UPS has one socket with such a pin, the rest
>>are without it. That's 6 sockets I looked at.
>>> You tell me what is going to protect an 18 AWG (or its metric
>>> equivalent), from a 30A supply.
>>
>>Pass. Me no parse. What's an AWG? Are you talking about an equipment
>>that can take only 18A being plugged into a circuit fused at 30A? Its
>>own fuses should save it. If it's not fused and it takes 18A normally,
>>complain to somebody.
> It is ne way we discuss wire size in North America.
Oh, yes, I see.
> I am talking about a linecord capable of carrying only 7-10A of
> current being protected by a 30A fuse or MCB. What fuses may or may
> not be in the equipment is irrelavent, it is the linecord's safety in
> question.
If the power cord blows, it blows. But that won't happen because it
will be on a circuit that is fused at well below 7-10A. Only a few
circuits are fused at 13A, which is the only standard that is above
that.
I suppose you are going to tell me that the line blowing is a fire
hazard? (in my experience it simply goes bang inside the sheath
somewhere, and then is sheepishly safe).
Peter
Gary Tait
<p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:39:38 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:44:28 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>>>>>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> It's not safe to do that though. UK receptacles are protected at 30A
>>>>>
>>>>>Plugs? they're either 2A or 3A or 5A. A special power circuit socket
>>>>>might be 13A.
>>>
>>>> Plugs, yes, that is why they have the fuse in them. The outlets
>>>> themselves are protected by a 30A fuse or MCB.
>>>
>>>The wall sockets (outlets) are not usually fused either in britain or on
>>>the continent, but the whole circuit definitely is always fused at the
>>>fuse box.
>
>> They are, not locally at the socket, but at the consumer unit.
>
>Uh .... are you saying what I am saying, but calling "at the fuse box",
>"at the consumer unit"? Is that some sort of orwellian speak? What's
>the circumlocution for? I kind of object to the replacement of plain
>speech by jargon.
>
Yes, Consumer Unit = Fusebox
>>>It will be fused at the same amperage as the plugs to be used in the
>>>sockets attached to that ring. That is, 5A for a 5A circuit, for which
>>>you will be using plugs fused at 5A - if you haven't decided instead to
>>>fuse the plug at a level of the appliance it's connected to! Which may
>>>be variously less or more than 5A. If more, then you could blow the
>>>circuit fuse.
>
>> That is where you are not getting it. UK outlets, are protected at the
>> consumer unit at 30A, to protect the wiring in the wall, the plug on
>
>If by "consumer unit", you mean "fuse box", I assure you they're fused
>at the ampage appropriate to the circuit, and while I haven't see the
>wiring of many UK houses, I have seen the wiring of the few I have seen
>for many many years. I.e. each individual circuit will have either a
>3A or 5A or 13A fuse in, at the fusebox.
>
But, you see, General purpose outlet circuits in the UK are protected
at 25-30A.
>I won't go to the fusebox on my continental wall, but I recall that it
>contains at least 4 rows of 8 trigger throw switches, triggered at
>ampages appropriate to the circuits. In addition, there is a single
>throw switch on the incoming line, triggered at the current level I
>have contracted for overall.
>
On the continent, they do use radial circuits, as you describe, often
protected at 10 or 16A. But in the UK, they use ring circuits, which
are protected at 25-30A.
>In the UK, instead of trigger switches, there are fuses in the fusebox,
>but then the houses are generally much older. I haven't lived in a
>house in the UK less than a hundred years old.
>
They use trigger switches there too now, called MCBs.
>> the appliance is fused to protect its linecord, and maybe the
>
>What the heck is a "linecord"? Do you mean the power cord? Why would
>anybody care about it? Appliances are fused to protect themselves from
>meltdown. And the house too, in the unlikely event that some other
>fuse doesn't blow.
>
Because they don't want them to catch fire.
There is no way the fuse in an appliance protects linecord or
outlet wiring from a fault in the line cord.
It works like this, the fuse in the appliance protects the appliance.
The fuse in the plug protects the linecord. The fuse or MCB in the CU
protects the wiring.
>> appliance. If you manage plug linecord from the continent into a UK
>> outlet, it is essentially not being protected at all, by anything that
>> will save it.
>
>Uh, what? Why should anyone care about a power cord? The appliance
>will be fused, and if it's not, then somebody has a problem if the
>appliance develops a short, but the power cord is the last thing in the
>world anyone will worry about, particularly as it can either take
>umpteen amps or not, and in case of not, it'll melt and act like a fuse
>itself. If it can, it'll be perfectly happy, and the circuit fuse will
>blow instead.
>
It may not, it could catch fire, or worse, catch something else on
fire. It is better to have the weak spot that will fail in case of
fault, in a cotrolled enviroment, for instance, THE FUSE IN THE PLUG.
>
>>>>>And it's perfectly safe to do that. THINK! How many pins does a
>>>>>continental plug have? Two. So how many of the pins are connected?
>>>>>Two. Do I have to go on or are you going to continue to parrot
>>>>>nonthinking speciousnesses ...
>>>
>>>> Two (plus earth), but are protected by either 10 or 16A protection,
>>>> perfectly safe for the linecord and protected equipment.
>>>
>>>A continental plug is generally not fused. I haven't ever seen one
>>>except in the "never sold" section of market stalls (there's the big
>>>market outside my house every sunday). British plugs generally are
>>>fused. I'm looking at the continental plug on a computer power cable
>
>> Not genrally, they are, no matter what, unless it is an illegal
>> device, or something you plug into a shaver outlet.
>
>?? Oh, you mean british plugs are always fused. Yes, I would agree that
>coincides with my experience. But I don't know if that is the absolute
>rule.
It is the rule, not by practice, but by laws set out by the electrical
safety authority.
Not in the UK though, as I keep saying, they are protected at 25-30A.
>I suppose you are going to tell me that the line blowing is a fire
>hazard? (in my experience it simply goes bang inside the sheath
>somewhere, and then is sheepishly safe).
>
And a fuse blowing is what kind of hazard? Not to mention the cost of
replacing a linecord vs the cost of replacing a fuse vs the cost of
replacing a whole building (which you'd be liable for, should you
stupid acts cause such a tragedy to occur).
>
>Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> And a fuse blowing is what kind of hazard? Not to mention the cost of
> replacing a linecord vs the cost of replacing a fuse vs the cost of
> replacing a whole building (which you'd be liable for, should you
> stupid acts cause such a tragedy to occur).
There are easier ways to take out a building than to short your laptop
so that it doesn't conduct above 13A but connect it to the socket with
an unfused power cord whose strands melt down at 13A, while the fusebox
fuse for that circuit does not blow at 13A, then hope the cable burns
instead of goes bang phut.
For one thing, the UK fusebox fuse WILL blow at 13A. Sorry but on the ring
circuits I have seen in the UK houses I have owned, I had to replace the
fuses when they blew in the fusebox with 13A fuses (well, fuse wire) for
the 13A power circuits. Lighting circuits were 5A, I think (or maybe 3A
- I forget). Anyway - I don't plan on popping over to a woolworth to
check my memory ...
Peter
C-H Gustafsson
> If by "consumer unit", you mean "fuse box", I assure you they're fused
> at the ampage appropriate to the circuit, and while I haven't see the
> wiring of many UK houses, I have seen the wiring of the few I have seen
> for many many years. I.e. each individual circuit will have either a
> 3A or 5A or 13A fuse in, at the fusebox.
>
You are wrong, Gary Tait is right. The British sockets are on a 30 or
32 Amp ring circuit, typically with 2.5 mm2 conductors.
Should you not believe me, I would advise you too look up a suitable
reference. You may start with
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.1.htm
If that does not convince you, you may look in the On Site Guide to
the British wiring regs, BS 7671.
/Clas-Henrik
Peter T. Breuer
> "Peter T. Breuer" <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message news:<83akfb...@news.it.uc3m.es>...
>> If by "consumer unit", you mean "fuse box", I assure you they're fused
>> at the ampage appropriate to the circuit, and while I haven't see the
>> wiring of many UK houses, I have seen the wiring of the few I have seen
>> for many many years. I.e. each individual circuit will have either a
>> 3A or 5A or 13A fuse in, at the fusebox.
>>
> You are wrong, Gary Tait is right. The British sockets are on a 30 or
> 32 Amp ring circuit, typically with 2.5 mm2 conductors.
I'm afraid your house(s) must be a lot more modern than mine!
> Should you not believe me, I would advise you too look up a suitable
> reference. You may start with
> http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.1.htm
It's a guide, not a set of regulations. Amusingly ...
The British fused plug system is probably the biggest stumbling
block to the introduction of a common plug for the whole of Europe
(the 'europlug'). The proposed plug is a reversible two~pin type, so
would not comply with the Regulations in terms of correct polarity.
If we were to adopt it, every plug would need adjacent fuse
protection, or would need to be rewired ...
I.e. what the rest of europe is happy with, britain is not.
> If that does not convince you, you may look in the On Site Guide to
> the British wiring regs, BS 7671.
I may, but it doesn't tally with the facts as I know them. I know
perfectly well what kind of fuse wire I used to have to use. And I
remember when we used the old round pin plugs too! (small round plugs
for the 3A circuits, larger triangular plugs for the 5A circuit, and
still larger ones for the few 13A outlets). Don't make me take a flight
back in to heathrow to go and check!
Peter
Gary Tait
Used to, yes (using BS546 plugs), but now, as that site shows, 32 A
ring mains are the norm, and have been for more than 50 years.
Deathwalker
and 13 amps. also i have yet to see an appliance that actually uses that
much juice.as it is an alternating current and most devices use a
transformer to convert to dc you can even wire live an neutral backwards
alot of the time. the only problem is if you mix live and earth. Most
devices when you open them don't even have an earthwire connected. Before
moulded plugs came as standard i think most electronic devices use 3 or 5
amp fuses and no earth. hifis and radios and most vcrs are only 2 pin.
--
Ian Lincoln Independent I.T Consultant
"Gary Tait" <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote in message
news:bbsthvsnulpnaj0p8...@4ax.com...
Ctalk
store, electrical store, many supermarkets etc and you can easily pick
up a simple fused adaptor! They only cost about £2 - 3 max!
These adaptors have a European outlet on one side and British plug on
the otherside. they also contain a 13amp fuse, so your appliences (and
their cords) are protected.
I'm in Ireland and am very familiar with both UK and Irish electrical
systems:
The only type of outlet you'll find in any modern building is
"BS1363". Three rectangular shaped pins.
Basically, to use computer terminology, the UK/Irish wiring system for
sockets (outlets) could be described as a bus where as the rest of the
world uses "star" type wiring.
A loop of heavy cable runs from a fuse in the fuse box right around a
number of rooms and then back to the fuse. The outlets (sockets) are
connected to this "Ring".
The fuse or circuit breaker (trip switch) in the fusebox / (consumer
unit if you want to get technical) is typically rated at 30 - 32 amps.
This fuse is designed to protect the heavy fixed wiring behind the
walls supplying the outlets.
EVERY plug used in the UK and Ireland carries an individual cartridge
fuse rated at 3, 5 or 13amps. This protects the cable running from the
plug to the applience from burning up if it were to be overloaded.
Even if the power supply for your laptop had its own fuse, if the unit
did over load the cable supplying it would burn up between the plug
and the transformer as it would be subjected to currents of up to 32
amps before the circuit breaker/trip switch (fuse) blows!
On another point:
UK/Irish sockets are not at all designed to accept european 2 pin
plugs, they only fit out of sheer coincidence and to make them fit in
you need to overcome the safety features of the outlet.
European plugs don't necessarily make good contact with the outlet,
may slip out, may spark, may cause flickering on-off of power to your
laptop! So for the sake of a few bucks get the appropriate adaptor.
On a final point:
Over riding the safety features or "hacking" a socket (outlet) is done
at your own risk. If you get electrocuted/destroy your computer power
supply tough luck! However, if you are the cause of a hotel fire you
**will** be sued by the insurance company and could potentially face
criminal charges (I'm not kidding, these things are taken very
seriously... [ditto for smoking in bed]!)
If I were to go to a US hotel and connect my laptop up by sticking 2
bare cables into a US outlet and caused a fire the same would be quite
likely!
So dont destroy your equipment / put yourself and others at risk.
USE AN ADAPTOR!!!
Ctalk
All western european countries have ultra modern digital telephone
systems. However, internal hotel systems may occasionally pose
problems.
1) Hotel system could be 100% digital.. i.e. there is no analogue
line, if you connect your modem you'll be connecting it to an ISDN
line and potentially doing it dammage.
This is usually the case where there is an RJ45 connector (like an
ethernet connector, fatter than a regular US phone plug)
2) Each country in Europe uses its own standard of phone connector, a
couple use RJ11 like the US (Ireland & Spain for example) however, the
rest use completely incompatable connectors.
There are some easy sollutions:
a)Buy an adaptor locally.. most computer shops will be able to help as
RJ11 (US phone plugs) are used a lot on the back of modems.
b) Find a normal phone unplug the line cord from the phone itself
(typically the connector will be either on the back or under the
phone)
You'll notice that the phone's cable has an RJ11 (US Style) phone
connector on one end (at the phone) and the national phone connector
on the other end (at the socket)
If you plug this cord into your modem it should work..
HOWEVER (there's always an however) if you get no dialtone:
To save costs many phone manufacturers may choose to wire the RJ11
connectors on their phones to suit the connector in the country that
you're visiting (it simplifies manufacturing by removing the need for
cables to cross-over etc etc)
Anyway, it means that occasionally the line may not be carried on the
same terminals as it would be in the USA/Canada even though the
connector is physically identical. In this situation you need to buy
an adaptor or a cable wired in the normal US Style.
Also if one particular phone's cable doesn't work, it doesn't mean
that all the phones in the country are wired that way, other phones
(particularly generic brands i.e. not branded with the phone company's
name) may be wired the standard way.
BT (British Telecom) Branded phones are notorious for this. The UK
uses a crimp-on modular connector, similar to, but not the same as the
US type RJ11.. The UK connector carries the line on a different pair
to the USA (the outside pair instead of the centre pair) so to make
wiring easier they re-assign the terminals in the phone and crimp the
connectors (RJ11 one end and UK type on the other) onto straight
cable. HOWEVER, BT to RJ11 (US/Irish) adaptors are very easily
available cheaply in any computer / electronics store in the UK.
--- In Ireland (and Spain) you can just plug in a US / Canadian modem
and it will work.
BTW: Generally, electrically there are no signifigant differences
between the phone networks.. a modern modem will cope just fine on any
of them the only hurdel is the plug!
---
Cellphones / Mobile phones:
GSM 900 and 1800 Mhz is universially available in Europe
as is GPRS (High speed data service).. You could buy a prepaid SIM
card to check your mail etc via your cellphone at more reasonable than
roaming rates.
Also, more and more WiFi points of presence are popping up around
airports, train stations, hotels etc..
So if you have a WiFi card in your laptop you might be able to log on
at broadband speed in these areas.
Peter T. Breuer
Only in new houses, and I have never even lived in a house newer than
100 years old in the UK. Ring circuits have always been the norm, by
the way. Yes, old houses will have new sockets on them, but the basic
wiring structure behind that will be as it always has been (even if
rewired in parts!). I've seen enough of them during my life in the UK.
Peter
Gary Tait
<p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>Gary Tait <ta...@hurontel.on.ca> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:04:34 +0200, "Peter T. Breuer"
>> <p...@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:
>> Used to, yes (using BS546 plugs), but now, as that site shows, 32 A
>> ring mains are the norm, and have been for more than 50 years.
>
>Only in new houses, and I have never even lived in a house newer than
>100 years old in the UK. Ring circuits have always been the norm, by
>the way. Yes, old houses will have new sockets on them, but the basic
>wiring structure behind that will be as it always has been (even if
>rewired in parts!). I've seen enough of them during my life in the UK.
>
>Peter
New houses, being late 1940s or newer, or wiring installations since
then. Sure, there MAY be old wiring as you describe, but that would be
the exception, not the norm, as you seem to think it is.
And commercial and institutional installations surely will be up to
IEE regs, so there is no chance of a hotel having old wiring.