RFD: rec.music.white-power
Milton Kleim
unmoderated group rec.music.white-power
This is a formal Request for Discussion for the creation of the
unmoder- ated Usenet newsgroup rec.music.white-power. This is not a
Call for Votes - do not vote now. To participate in the discussion,
follow the topic on news.groups. Please do not discuss the group
creation in other groups - it will most probably be off topic there.
RATIONALE: rec.music.white-power
There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power music,
a phenomenon which is international in scope.
Persons who have an interest in this genre of music have no
appropriate venue on USENET in which to discuss this controversial
topic. Other rec.music groups' topics are too dissimilar, and many of
their participants are in no way receptive of posts about this heated
topic.
Some discussion of White Power music occurs on alt.skinheads and
alt.politics.white-power, but is inappropriate there due to the
former's mostly lifestyle-oriented matters, and the latter's largely
political nature.
Interest in a rec.music.white-power group is indicated by expressions
on mailing lists, and in personal e-conversations with this poster.
Rec.music.white-power will prevent the "intrusion" of fans into other,
more vaguely-defined, newsgroups, where they will not be welcomed.
Discussions would necessarily be free and open, due to the topic's
controversial nature. This group should be unmoderated because a
moderator could exercise undue control over one viewpoint's postings.
CHARTER: rec.music.white-power
All issues relating to the genre known as White Power music, since its
inception until the present, covering all languages and nationalities
of performers, and all themes of pieces.
rec.music.white-power is an unmoderated newsgroup for the entertaining
and enlightening discussion of revolutionary new forms of rock,
country, and other sub-genres having racist/nationalist themes. Both
supporters and opponents will find the group educational and
intriguing.
Potential topics will relate to the origin, development, and
dissemination of White Power music; to the artistic composition and
performance of the music; and to the personal opinions and perceptions
of those who enjoy particular bands and performers, and pieces.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This RFD initiates a discussion period of at least 21 days. If a con-
sensus on the charter and the name of the group is reached, a Call for
Votes (CFV) for the group will be issued. Exact voting conditions
will be outlined in the CFV and the vote will be conducted by a
neutral third party. The voting period will last from 21 to 31 days
and the group will pass if the YES votes outnumber the NO votes by at
least 100 votes and if at least 2/3rds of the votes are in favor of
the new group.
For more detailed information about the procedure, see "How to Create
a New Usenet Newsgroup" in news.announce.newusers. You can also find
information about the group creation at the UVV web site at
http://www.uvv.org/uvv/.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD is cross-posted to the following Usenet newsgroups:
news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, alt.politics.nationalism.white, alt.
politics.white-power, alt.skinheads
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today. Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!" -- Bob Mathews
Ken McVay OBC
If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
In article <8208662...@uunet.uu.net>,
bb...@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:
> There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power
> music, a phenomenon which is international in scope.
Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
of growth.
Consider the following vitriolic trash, vomited by Canada's George
Burdi (aka George Hawthorne, aka The Reverend Eric Hawthorne):
"Third Reich"
(One, two, three four)
You kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
You kill a gypsy and a coloured too
Kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
Kill a gypsy and a coloured too
You just killed a kike
Don't it feel right
Goodness, gracious, darn right
You wake up in the morning
You climb up the tower
You say to yourself it's nigger killing hour
[more of the same]
When we reach the final hours
We'll jum into the showers
You gas them real good
Cause you're full of white power
Reach the final hours
We take them to the showers
We gas 'em real good
Cause you're full of white power"
All of this, of course, sung off key by Mr. Burdi and his
RaHoWa companions, with instruments so far out of tune it's
painful to hear, and the entire band off beat.
_This_ is the unadulterated crap you want to move into
mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
_This_ is what your "National Alliance" stands for?
For information about Mr. Kleim, Mr. Burdi (associated with such
groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
point your web browsers to the following URL's:
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/national-alliance/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
...then mobilize your friends and fellow net.denizens, and give Mr.
Kleim a vote so lopsided he'll need decades to forget it.
--
The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
Ken McVay OBC
bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
[a response to my article about hate-rock RFD]
Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
>> this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
>> of growth.
>
We'll see, we'll see.
>
Yes, Mr. Griswold, we will. I have a great deal of faith in
the public's ability to see folks like you for precisely what
you are. All they have to do is read your own words - they
condemn you more eloquently than anyone else possibly could.
URL: ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/g/griswold.les/ says
it all, Mr. Griswold.
>> groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
>> White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
>> point your web browsers to the following URL's:
>>
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/national-alliance/
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
>You just don't get it, do you Kenny? EVERY SINGLE TIME that you do
>something like this, you're just giving us free publicity!
That is precisely why I do it, Mr. Griswold. The clean, bright
light of day this "publicity" shines upon your foul
"philosophy," will not favour you.
Racial Theorist
>If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
>flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
>newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
i thought you were in favor of free speech, kenny.
>Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
>this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
>of growth.
>_This_ is the unadulterated crap you want to move into
>mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
i thought you were in favor of free speech, kenny.
>...then mobilize your friends and fellow net.denizens, and give Mr.
>Kleim a vote so lopsided he'll need decades to forget it.
i thought you were in favor of free speech, kenny.
and here you are trying to rein in somebody's freedom of expression,
which ain't what english speaking white people are all about.
in loyal service to the white race,
R.C. Richards, Racial Theorist
visit the kinder, gentler CLOC homepage:
http://www.io.com/~wlp/aryan-page/cloc
***************************
* CLOC *
* *
* KEEPING AMERIKA WHITE *
* *
***************************
Milton Kleim
I wrote --
> > There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power
> > music, a phenomenon which is international in scope.
> Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
> this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
> of growth.
A group of the type I am proposing has never been put forth before, Mr.
Mcvay. The USENET community has not "rejected" such a group, as the need
for it has only arisen in the past few months.
> Consider the following vitriolic trash, vomited by Canada's George
> Burdi (aka George Hawthorne, aka The Reverend Eric Hawthorne):
[alleged lyrics deleted]
> All of this, of course, sung off key by Mr. Burdi and his
> RaHoWa companions, with instruments so far out of tune it's
> painful to hear, and the entire band off beat.
I think the previous five lines of commentary made by you, Mr. Mcvay,
demonstrates your inability to be objective, sir. You may disagree with,
even revile, Mr. Burdi's (alleged) lyrics, but I think your extreme bias
and malicious assertions illustrate that you have an agenda motivated by
things other than you lead on.
> _This_ is the unadulterated crap you want to move into
> mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
Power" music phenomenon. The creation of rec.music.white-power will have
little or no effect on the status of the genre in "mainstream" society,
including USENET.
White Power music will continue to be discussed on other music groups,
where it is only marginally appropriate, unless we allow a new venue to be
created where White Power music fans and others may post their comments
and news to. Those who frequent other music groups where White Power
music is discussed would be pleased that such a controversial topic would
be moved to another, more suitable, location.
I would think that an individual such as yourself, Mr. Mcvay, would
welcome the "isolation" of persons whom you don't agree with on their
"own" group. But I guess your motives are not as virtuous as may first
be perceived.
> _This_ is what your "National Alliance" stands for?
What does the National Alliance have to do with rec.music.white-power?
The National Alliance is a political activist organization, which has no
interest in the creation of the proposed newsgroup. Perhaps you are just
grasping for straws, Mr. Mcvay, and attempting to generate innunendo about
myself in a pathetic effort to divert attention from the genuine issues
relating to this RFD?
> For information about Mr. Kleim, Mr. Burdi (associated with such
> groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
> White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
> point your web browsers to the following URL's:
[material deleted]
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
I would welcome the interested reader to investigate Mr. Mcvay's
archives, a project which has as a foremost goal the monitoring and
electronic stalking of individuals whom Mr. Mcvay and his handlers
disagree with.
Mr. Mcvay represents the worst fears of every freedom-minded USENET surfer.
Mr. Mcvay represents the prototypical "Net Police" which, mistakenly,
are thought by most to only be a _proposal_ by various adherents of
McCarthyism. The Net Police are here -- NOW -- and Mr. Mcvay is the most
well-known. He finds it his duty to follow people around the Net,
without regard for generally-accepted USENET convention. He recently
invaded rec.music.country, and in violation of its charter, began heated
_political_ diatribes on it.
Feel free to check out the above URL, which relates to my writings. I
have nothing to hide. And also check out the hundreds of other
"dossiers" -- his word -- in directories such as ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/
pub/fascism/dossier/ on Mr. Mcvay's system. Mr. Mcvay's mentors, J.
Edgar Hoover, and Joe McCarthy, would be proud.
If you would like to research the REALITY behind one of the leading White
Power music distributors, please check out http://www.resistance.com/
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Proponent of rec.music.white-power
Les Griswold
> If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
> flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
> newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
>
>> music, a phenomenon which is international in scope.
>
> Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
> this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
> of growth.
We'll see, we'll see.
(snip - Kenny really losing it over RaHoWa's lyrics to "Third Reich")
> For information about Mr. Kleim, Mr. Burdi (associated with such
> groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
> White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
> point your web browsers to the following URL's:
>
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/national-alliance/
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
You just don't get it, do you Kenny? EVERY SINGLE TIME that you do
something like this, you're just giving us free publicity!
> ...then mobilize your friends and fellow net.denizens, and give Mr.
> Kleim a vote so lopsided he'll need decades to forget it.
You may be surprised at the response his idea gets!
Les
Staff
music, we support the creation of such a discussion group.
After establishing a WWW site last spring
(http://www.resistance.com) we have received a larged number of
visitors (over 15,000 since August and over 500,000 files
downloaded). We feel that there is enough people online with an
interest in this music genre.
Staff
Caesar
bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA "Les Griswold" writes:
Probably several hundred 'no' votes and only a few 'yes' votes.
Most people hate your Nazi propaganda!
>
> Les
>
>
>
--
Caesar
Les Griswold
> bn...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
>
> [a response to my article about hate-rock RFD]
>
>>> this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
>>> of growth.
>>
>> We'll see, we'll see.
> Yes, Mr. Griswold, we will. I have a great deal of faith in
> the public's ability to see folks like you for precisely what
> you are. All they have to do is read your own words - they
> condemn you more eloquently than anyone else possibly could.
>
> URL: ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/g/griswold.les/ says
> it all, Mr. Griswold.
If you have so much faith in people, Kenny, why do you archive every
little thing we post? Do you think that the Great Unwashed need your
enlightened leadership?
>>> groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
>>> White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
>>> point your web browsers to the following URL's:
>>>
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/national-alliance/
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
>>> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
>
>>You just don't get it, do you Kenny? EVERY SINGLE TIME that you do
>>something like this, you're just giving us free publicity!
>
> That is precisely why I do it, Mr. Griswold. The clean, bright
> light of day this "publicity" shines upon your foul
> "philosophy," will not favour you.
Yes, and we just look SO BAD when we don't hide or deny ANYTHING that we
say, right?
Les
Les Griswold
>>flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
>>newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
>
>
>>this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
>>of growth.
>
>>mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
>
>
>>Kleim a vote so lopsided he'll need decades to forget it.
>
He doesn't. He believes in free speech, SORTA, as long as it only extends
to people who use it "responsibly" (that is also left up to his definition)
Les
EddieHTOMB
alt.skinheads at least, and besides, there's plenty of fucked up NGs like
alt.kiddie.porn or something. Dammit free speech is for everybody, ya
facist!
-Eddie
Richard H. Miller
: >>>As a record company (Resistance Records) specializing in this
Then where is the mailing list on the topic; you are jumping from statisitics
for web visits to a world-wide group with no evidence of how many people are
interested in the topic or what the volume would be; if you really feel there
is interest, create a mailing list and when you get over 150-200 subscribers
and 20-30 messages/day, start the process for an RFD.
PA SvB/g
> If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
> flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
> newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
>
> bb...@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:
>
> > There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power
> > music, a phenomenon which is international in scope.
> mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
> ....then mobilize your friends and fellow net.denizens, and give Mr.
>
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
> Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
What are you afraid of?
PA
sweden
BTurner01
music, we support the creation of such a discussion group.
After establishing a WWW site last spring
(http://www.resistance.com) we have received a larged number of
visitors (over 15,000 since August and over 500,000 files
downloaded). We feel that there is enough people online with an
interest in this music genre.<<<<
I myself agree........
Stephanie Smith
<rrec...@resistance.com> wrote:
These figures don't necessarily indicate any particular interest in
racist music. I routinely browse racist and fascist Web sites because
they're good for a cheap laugh.
--
Stephanie Smith ------- st...@wimsey.com -------mspo...@mtcc.com
You could never be strong / You can only be free
And I never asked for the truth / But you owe that to me
Michel Fingerhut
>music, we support the creation of such a discussion group.
They have a Web site, they have a mailing list, they have a magazine,
and now they want a newsgroup. It is a political act, not a
recreational one, so this SHOULD NEVER come into the "rec" hierarchy.
As to their goal, see what George Hawthorne (Resistance Records
founder) writes:
So, here is my request. I am looking for a writer
to compose "The Mother of all Jewish Conspiracy"
articles for print in Resistance, and we are willing
to pay you for it.
and later:
Varg Vikernes, the lead singer of Burzum and one of the biggest
proponents of the Black Metal scene, opened up the article with
a nice quote about how he wished the holocaust were true,
because "... I would love to know that six million of those
elephant-nosed, foul mouthed sub-apes died ..."
His actions are not just words on the Internet:
I led a demonstration of over 100 Skinheads outside the meeting place.
We were surrounded by riot police, and as each well-dressed Hebrew
couple strolled by, we would chant "rat ... rat ... rat ... rat" in
mass group whisper.
Besides being more anti-semitic than even anti-black, Hawthorne says of himself:
Now, let me put it plainly - I am STRONGLY anti-Christian.
I would love to fill the pages of Resistance with the most
blasphemous prose you have ever read.
I know there are more people who respect religion than democracy, so that
should convince _them_ to vote against the group, maybe (smirk).
As to the democratic aspect, they intend to do what Hitler did (still quoting
Hawthorne):
It is a jewish mandate to make Aryans a racial minority in the
U.S.A., and in all other formerly White nations. Then, and only then,
is the possibility of a repeat of Adolf Hitler democratically
impossible.
Shouldn't that be enough in order to let all those who wish to safaguard
Usenet (and, more seriously, the world at large) as a democratic place to
vote against this group?
Michael Fingerhut
--
WWW: http://www.ircam.fr (IRCAM)
http://www.cnac-gp.fr (Centre Georges-Pompidou)
http://www.videomuseum.fr (Videomuseum)
ftp: ftp.ircam.fr -- tel: +33 1 44 78 48 53 -- fax: +33 1 42 77 29 47
Gord McFee
>If you have so much faith in people, Kenny, why do you archive every
>little thing we post? Do you think that the Great Unwashed need your
>enlightened leadership?
Annoying, isn't it Les? There you have a free source of information to
rebut the inane filth that you and your scummy friends spew. No way you can
suck in anyone of average intelligence any more. That's why you have to
settle for morons like yourself.
>>
>>>You just don't get it, do you Kenny? EVERY SINGLE TIME that you do
>>>something like this, you're just giving us free publicity!
That's right, Les--exposing you for the racist, loser filth that you are.
Pisses you off, right?
>>
>> That is precisely why I do it, Mr. Griswold. The clean, bright
>> light of day this "publicity" shines upon your foul
>> "philosophy," will not favour you.
>Yes, and we just look SO BAD when we don't hide or deny ANYTHING that we
>say, right?
You got it!
--
Gord McFee
.. I'll write no line before its time(gmc...@ibm.net)
-- MR/2 2.26 #331
Ben Ostrowsky
rec.music.white-power. I strongly oppose racism, but I feel
that it's more important to see that White Power advocates aren't
denied an appropriate newsgroup because of their political views.
Above all other concerns, let's be fair.
Ben
--
Ben Ostrowsky, vegetarian pacifist geek. "I made this letter longer
than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter." -- B. Pascal
John Baglow
> I'd like to briefly encourage you to join me in voting YES on
> rec.music.white-power. I strongly oppose racism, but I feel
> that it's more important to see that White Power advocates aren't
> denied an appropriate newsgroup because of their political views.
>
> Above all other concerns, let's be fair.
So alt.politics.white-power, alt.politics.nationalism.white,
alt.revisionism, alt.skinheads, etc., etc., aren't enough? I'd do a little
net.exploring, if you have the stomach for it...
Cheers,
John
--
******************************************************************************
John Baglow "Oh, baby, is this really the end--
To be stuck outside of Moncton
With the Whitehorse blues again?"
Christopher B. Stone
Ben Ostrowsky <syl...@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>I'd like to briefly encourage you to join me in voting YES on
>rec.music.white-power. I strongly oppose racism, but I feel
>that it's more important to see that White Power advocates aren't
>denied an appropriate newsgroup because of their political views.
What they hell is appropriate about it? This is an RFD for a *music*
newsgroup, but of course as of yet the proponents haven't said one word
about music, but only about their political views. This is clearly a
group meant for political polemics *masquerading* as a music newsgroup.
Nor are the racists being denied a forum to express their views. There
are several racist group in alt.* where they can post to their hearts'
content. But in alt.* they are clearly demarcated as fringe groups, and
not as legitimate recreational activities.
Also, this group is off-topic in rec.*, because rec.* is for recreational
activities, and racism is anything but recreational. Moreover, now that
we are beginning to get groups like rec.drugs and rec.i'm-a-racist, some
sites may begin dropping rec.* altogether, since it's clear that any
semblance of quality control has disappeared from the newsgroup creation
process.
On group-mentors recently, we had a proponent who wanted a group (roughly
speaking) where presidential campaigns could post press releases. There
were a number of problems with this proposal, but he rejected an alt.*
group because he didn't think campaigns would associate with a hierarchy
that carried a lot of "alternative" topics. Are we going to introduce
the same taboo in to rec.* now? Leave it in alt.*, please.
Do you think this group is going to get Usenet a better reputation in the
halls of Congress? We already have the Christian right against us; now
we're going to get the left against us too. We need to demonstrate that
we can govern ourselves *responsibly*, or else someone will do it for us.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@phoenix.princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been
granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I
do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it." -John F. Kennedy
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery <r...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> You'll pardon me if I consider this paranoia. Playing
>> alt.syntax.tactical games with obscure alt.* groups is one thing;
>> infesting Usenet is quite another. To be quite frank, they don't have
>> the brains, numbers, or technical ability to pull that off.
> A few months ago, I probably would have agreed with you. Then came the
> results of the CFV for misc.activism.militia. (True, militias may not
> be quite as racist as the proponents of this proposal, but they
> certainly are far right, and their newsgroup passed handily.)
Oh please. Militias have absolutely nothing to do with Nazi hate groups,
and most militia members are as far left as they are right (that's
generally the case with libertarians).
> During the rec.drugs.* debate, I asked, "How low will you go?" I asked
> if you would vote for a group called rec.rape. At the time, I thought
> that was *still* a hypothetical, far reaching example. No more.
Chris, you're getting really close to a line here. I would not vote for
rec.rape. I will not vote for this newsgroup. I will not vote for
rec.drugs.*. You are quite aware of that; I told you several times. I
would appreciate it if you would have your selective memory repaired.
This is how far I'll go: Everyone who can demonstrate sufficient interest
deserves a Usenet newsgroup. Everyone. Either the system is impartial or
it is not. There is no compromise position, nothing inbetween.
But they still have to demonstrate sufficient interest, and I'm certainly
not interested, so why on earth would I be voting yes?
--
Russ Allbery (r...@cs.stanford.edu) http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~rra/
Russell Steinthal
Ben Ostrowsky <syl...@grove.ufl.edu> wrote:
>I'd like to briefly encourage you to join me in voting YES on
>rec.music.white-power. I strongly oppose racism, but I feel
>that it's more important to see that White Power advocates aren't
>denied an appropriate newsgroup because of their political views.
>
I have to disagree. One of the functions of a the RFD/CFV process is to
establish if there is sufficient interest to justify the creation of the
proposed group. By voting yes when you clearly don't intend to read the
group, you go counter to the primary purpose of the voting process. (I
would agree that there are certain limited reasons for voting for a group
that you don't intend to read, but they mostly concern reorganizations of
high traffic groups.)
Remember, if the group fails because of lack of interest, then the process
has worked. That's not censorship.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=
Russell Steinthal <ste...@avnet.org>
<ste...@intac.com> <rm...@columbia.edu>
Wouldn't you be confused if someone went around with 3 names in the real world?
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery <r...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> Usenet newsgroup creation *MUST* be content-neutral. Otherwise,
>> exactly the same arguments you're using to oppose this group could be
>> used to oppose a soc.sexuality.* heirarchy, rec.guns, soc.religion.*,
>> or some other subject which isn't acceptable to some group of the
>> population. If there are enough racists interested in forming a
>> newsgroup, let them.
> I disagree -- this is clearly an attempt to legitimate racism on Usenet,
> and we should be strong enough to resist *voting* in a newsgroup
> dedicated to the subject of racism.
Both of us are nothing if not consistent. :)
Russ Allbery
> I would add the caveat, however, that protecting the content-neutrality
> of Usenet should not be a reason to vote for a group. The people who
> champion content neutrality on Usenet should also obey the spirit of
> Usenet CFV's by not voting for groups which they don't have an interest
> in reading, and which don't directly affect groups they do read. Don't
> compound the error of those who vote against a newsgroup for the wrong
> reasons by voting in favor of it for equally wrong reasons.
Agreed. I wasn't planning on voting. No doubt it's going to fail anyway,
since there are those like Chris Stone who don't agree with me and plenty
of others who won't even bother reading the discussion. I still don't
like the reasons for which it's going to fail.
Vivek Sadananda Pai
Russ Allbery <r...@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>Russell Steinthal <ste...@intac.com> writes:
[...]
>Agreed. I wasn't planning on voting. No doubt it's going to fail anyway,
>since there are those like Chris Stone who don't agree with me and plenty
>of others who won't even bother reading the discussion. I still don't
>like the reasons for which it's going to fail.
Well, then a question about groups which fail for the wrong reasons -
given that the vote is non-binding, and an opinion poll rather than a
real vote, what exactly does happen when the vote fails but there
seems to be sufficient interest to have a group? Is there some sort of
policy to set aside the vote (not strictly needed, since it is
considered to be an opinion poll)?
Just curious,
Vivek
Ken Arromdee
Russell Steinthal <ste...@intac.com> wrote:
>I would agree that there are certain limited reasons for voting for a group
>that you don't intend to read, but
If you agree that such reasons exist even in a very limited way, the
statement required in all CFVs about the purpose of voting contradicts you.
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"Any creature who would disguise itself as a bone, obviously has no sense of
fair play!" -- Superboy Annual #1
Michel Fingerhut
(Milton Kleim) writes:
>I would welcome the interested reader to investigate Mr. Mcvay's
>archives, a project which has as a foremost goal the monitoring and
>electronic stalking of individuals whom Mr. Mcvay and his handlers
>disagree with.
>
>Mr. Mcvay represents the worst fears of every freedom-minded USENET surfer.
>Mr. Mcvay represents the prototypical "Net Police" which, mistakenly,
>are thought by most to only be a _proposal_ by various adherents of
>McCarthyism. The Net Police are here -- NOW -- and Mr. Mcvay is the most
>well-known. He finds it his duty to follow people around the Net,
This is EXACTLY what Kleim does and advocates, as he writes in his "Tactics
and Strategy for Usenet":
If you have the time and money to spend, monitor the Enemy's
groups [...] Relay such information to your comrades, possibly
via the ANA
(this is the Aryan News Agency, "founded 1993 by the author to rapidly
and reliably distribute news to Aryan Net activists via e-mail and USENET."
Stephanie Smith
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
> I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
> Power" music phenomenon.
Then create a mailing list or an alt.* group.
Ken McVay OBC
>A group of the type I am proposing has never been put forth before, Mr.
>Mcvay. The USENET community has not "rejected" such a group, as the need
>for it has only arisen in the past few months.
There is no need for a newsgroup dedicated to the "discussion"
of crap like this:
"Third Reich"
(One, two, three four)
You kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
You kill a gypsy and a coloured too
Kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
Kill a gypsy and a coloured too
You just killed a kike
Don't it feel right
Goodness, gracious, darn right
You wake up in the morning
You climb up the tower
You say to yourself it's nigger killing hour
[more of the same]
When we reach the final hours
We'll jum into the showers
You gas them real good
Cause you're full of white power
Reach the final hours
We take them to the showers
We gas 'em real good
Cause you're full of white power"
>> All of this, of course, sung off key by Mr. Burdi and his
>> RaHoWa companions, with instruments so far out of tune it's
>> painful to hear, and the entire band off beat.
>I think the previous five lines of commentary made by you, Mr. Mcvay,
>demonstrates your inability to be objective, sir. You may disagree with,
>even revile, Mr. Burdi's (alleged) lyrics, but I think your extreme bias
>and malicious assertions illustrate that you have an agenda motivated by
>things other than you lead on.
You're absolutely correct, Mr. Kleim. I am not remotely
objective - Burdi's words, and I assure you they _are_ Burdi's
words (perhaps you should ask him, if he hasn't yet started
his year in the slammer for assault causing bodily harm - he's
on the net, and so is his record company, Resistance) - I've
seen and heard the tape, his words are a succinct and clear
explanation for the existance of the trash you call music.
Hate rock is deliberately used as a recruiting tool by the
Nazis who produce it. It serves no other purpose.
Malicious assertions, Mr. Kleim? To state that the band can't
sing, play, or keep their instruments in tune is being KIND.
Agenda? Yes, I do. My agenda is to confront racists and
right-wing extremists here on the net, and to expose them for
exactly what they are.
In your case, it means demonstrating that you are a
hypocritical hatemonger, one who admitted he would lie
whenever and wherever it suited his "cause." It means
introducing the real Milton Kleim to the folks who don't know
him yet.
You rant and pontificate about the "abuse of UseNet
conventions," all the while advocating the invasion of 15,000
or so newsgroups for recruiting purposes. You cynically refer
to your targets as "uninformed and unaware," showing your
contempt for the millions of unwary people to whom you wish to
present your "kinder, gentler" Adolf Hitler.
"The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of
conscious and subconscious terror permeating every
facet of society generated by strategic planning, a
socially-caustic mix of money, myth, empowering dynamoes
[sic] of the grand plan. ... I have revealed the heartfelt
thoughts of a National Socialist with bold honesty" Milton
Kleim, alt.revisionism, March 21, 1994.
You are a charleton of the first order.
>I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
>Power" music phenomenon. The creation of rec.music.white-power will have
>little or no effect on the status of the genre in "mainstream" society,
>including USENET.
Horsepucky. You and your nazi friends want a solid, mainstream
base for your internet recruiting efforts. You yourself
advocated ignoring a newsgroup's subject matter, and invading
it strictly for recruiting. You are a liar and a fraud, Mr.
Kleim.
>White Power music will continue to be discussed on other music groups,
>where it is only marginally appropriate, unless we allow a new venue to be
>created where White Power music fans and others may post their comments
>and news to. Those who frequent other music groups where White Power
>music is discussed would be pleased that such a controversial topic would
>be moved to another, more suitable, location.
I suggest you join the Resistance Records mailing list, Mr.
Kleim - those who go there have no illusions as to its
purpose, so you'll feel right at home. The usual reason for a
new group is that traffic devoted to it in a broader group has
taken over the group... hate rock, for instance, dominating
chatter in a rock music group.
What has been the percentage of traffic in the alt.music
groups, Mr. Kleim? What? You don't know? How about
alt.music.hardcore - Mr. Burdi tries to peddle his trash there
from time to time - has hate-rock now dominated the group? In
a pig's eye. There is no demonstrated need, Mr. Kleim, so
perhaps you should issue a newgroup for alt.music.nazi or
alt.music.hate-rock, and see what sort of traffic develops.
>I would think that an individual such as yourself, Mr. Mcvay, would
>welcome the "isolation" of persons whom you don't agree with on their
>"own" group. But I guess your motives are not as virtuous as may first
>be perceived.
Isolation? Phooey. You already have that, and you are openly
advocating using the entire net to spread your racist
propaganda. You don't want "isolation," Mr. Kleim, you want
mainline exposure. More "unaware and ignorant" users for you to
propagandize.
What is it you feel they must be "unaware and ignorant" of,
Mr. Kleim? Your vicious political agenda?
>> _This_ is what your "National Alliance" stands for?
>What does the National Alliance have to do with rec.music.white-power?
It advocates hatred, Mr. Kleim, and so does the music.
>The National Alliance is a political activist organization, which has no
>interest in the creation of the proposed newsgroup. Perhaps you are just
>grasping for straws, Mr. Mcvay, and attempting to generate innunendo about
>myself in a pathetic effort to divert attention from the genuine issues
>relating to this RFD?
"I will lie when it suits me." Milton Kleim
>archives, a project which has as a foremost goal the monitoring and
>electronic stalking of individuals whom Mr. Mcvay and his handlers
>disagree with.
Handlers, Mr. Kleim? Who might my "handlers" be? No man
handles me, Mr. Kleim. A friend said of me last year "he is
the most single-minded man I've ever met," and he's absolutely
right. I am also ferociously, rigidly independant, Mr. Kleim,
as anyone who knows me will tell you. Your lies simply won't
wash.
>Mr. Mcvay represents the worst fears of every freedom-minded USENET surfer.
>Mr. Mcvay represents the prototypical "Net Police" which, mistakenly,
>are thought by most to only be a _proposal_ by various adherents of
>McCarthyism. The Net Police are here -- NOW -- and Mr. Mcvay is the most
>well-known. He finds it his duty to follow people around the Net,
>without regard for generally-accepted USENET convention. He recently
>invaded rec.music.country, and in violation of its charter, began heated
>_political_ diatribes on it.
>
That's hilarious, Mr. Kleim, and typically hypocritical.
>have nothing to hide. And also check out the hundreds of other
>"dossiers" -- his word -- in directories such as ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/
>pub/fascism/dossier/ on Mr. Mcvay's system. Mr. Mcvay's mentors, J.
>Edgar Hoover, and Joe McCarthy, would be proud.
>
Hoover and McCarthy were dishonourable men, just like you, Mr.
Kleim. My mentors, I assure you, were my twelve years of
digital communications. Each one taught me something, as each
one in the future will. Your innuendo won't wash.
>If you would like to research the REALITY behind one of the leading White
>Power music distributors, please check out http://www.resistance.com/
Owned by one George Burdi, of "You gas 'em real good" fame - a
former "reverend" in the "Church of the Creator," former Klan
recruiter, Heritage Front leader, and convicted felon. A
225-pound man convicted of kicking a 110-pound woman in the
face with a steel-toed boot, and breaking her nose. A man who
said, on CBC's Prime Time News Magazine, a national
documentary, that he used his music to recruit. He discussed
how many times a child would hear the words "white power" if
he listened to a certain song a number of times in a day.
Mr. Burdi's role in Canada's hate movement, as a Heritage
Front leader, is thoroughly documented in the Canadian
Security and Intelligence Review Committee's Report to the
Solicitor-General of Canada regarding "The Heritage Front
Affair." This document may be read via URL
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/heritage-front/
In closing, I would like to quote you, Mr. Kleim:
Subject: _On Tactics and Strategy for USENET_
"USENET offers enormous opportunity for the Aryan resistance
to disseminate our message to the unaware and the ignorant.
It is the only relatively uncensored (so far) mass medium
which we have available. The State cannot yet stop us from
"advertising" our ideas and organizations on USENET, but I
can assure you, this will not always be the case. NOW is the
time to grasp the WEAPON which is the INTERNET, and wield it
skillfully and wisely while you may still do so freely."
You were speaking of _objectivity_ and _agenda_, Mr. Kleim?
Russell Steinthal
Ken Arromdee <arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> wrote:
>In article <4cmf0n$s...@nile.intac.com>,
>Russell Steinthal <ste...@intac.com> wrote:
>>I would agree that there are certain limited reasons for voting for a group
>>that you don't intend to read, but
>
>If you agree that such reasons exist even in a very limited way, the
>statement required in all CFVs about the purpose of voting contradicts you.
It's been a while since I've closely read the boilerplate of a CFV (I'll
admit to basically skimming CFV's for groups I have read the RFD on,
since I consider myself more than adequately familiar with the voting
procedures), but I'll try to answer anyway.
When I referred to the limited reasons for voting for a group you don't
intend to read, I was trying to include the possibility that the reader
of a high traffic group which was undergoing a reorganization would be
justified in voting for one of the subgroups, even if they did not intend
to read it. That may be slightly hypocritical, because it does skew the
true level of interest, but I think it's justified on the ground that
people can have an interest in splitting some traffic off of a heavy
group. I would attach a caveat to that, tthat there must be
sufficient interest to justify the subgroup, indicated by the traffic
analysis and in the discussion.
To argue that people can't vote in that way would be to say that
reorganizations should have a significant number of voters who vote for
only one or two of the proposed subgroups. After all, it's a given that
there are a significant number of readers who are not interested in at
least one of the subjects- otherwise why reorg?
The primary reason for voting yes should still be that you are going to
read the group. I consider the case I described above to be the
exception, rather than the rule.
[Advocacy mode on]
This is a valuable discussion, not directly related to an ongoing RFD, which
would be lost under some of the news.groups.moderated proposals. It also
demonstrates proper subject line changing. Keep news.groups unmoderated!
Anton
Ostrowsky) wrote:
> I'd like to briefly encourage you to join me in voting YES on
> rec.music.white-power.
I strongly vote YES on the creation of rec.music.white-power. Such a
newsgroup is long overdue.
--Anton
Russell Steinthal
Vivek Sadananda Pai <vi...@cs.rice.edu> wrote:
>Well, then a question about groups which fail for the wrong reasons -
>given that the vote is non-binding, and an opinion poll rather than a
>real vote, what exactly does happen when the vote fails but there
>seems to be sufficient interest to have a group? Is there some sort of
>policy to set aside the vote (not strictly needed, since it is
>considered to be an opinion poll)?
There are people who have been around Usenet for much longer than I have,
but as far as I understand the history of this sort of thing, votes are
only set aside in cases of fraud (or at least fraud in the eyes of the
news.announce.newgroups moderator).
The question of right and wrong reasons for voting for and against groups
is still a debated topic, so I would be shocked to see a vote set aside
for those reasons. After all, if there is that much interest for a
group, there's always alt...
Russ Allbery
> Well, then a question about groups which fail for the wrong reasons -
> given that the vote is non-binding, and an opinion poll rather than a
> real vote, what exactly does happen when the vote fails but there seems
> to be sufficient interest to have a group?
In the case of comp.dcom.telecom.tech, the vote was immediately held
again. But that was a case of blatant violation of the process; a
one-sided message on the group was posted to a very large moderated
mailing list and no rebuttal was permitted.
I don't remember ever seeing a group with demonstrated sufficient interest
fail except in cases of voting problems like that or in cases where there
was some namespace-related (not content-related) objection to the group.
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery <r...@cs.stanford.edu> writes:
>> If there are enough racists interested in forming a newsgroup, let
>> them. They won't be in other groups bothering you, and sites can
>> simply not carry the group if they don't want to see it.
> Wrong. The author of the call is also the author of many texts, such
> as "The National Socialism Primer" (i.e., on nazism); "American
> Democracy" (promoting "a benevolent authoritarian regime" based on the
> "failure of participatory government" so as to "resurrect[ing] America
> from the "useful chaos" of "democracy"); and, not least, "On Tactics
> and Stragety for Usenet" in which he outlines the "enormous opportunity
> for the Aryan Resistance to disseminate our message to the unaware and
> the ignorant."
I'm well aware of what he's written. Contrary to what you apparently
think, this is not the first time that I've encountered this group of
individuals. They almost crashed our mail server with their Crusader
spam, and I was involved in the cleanup.
> "Tailor your messages for each group. Our ideology has myriad facets,
> and the well-informed activist can extract something to fit onto just
> about every group."
I should point out that the same can be said of libertarianism, and
libertarians are doing exactly the same thing. They just aren't as
organized or as objectionable.
> He details how to approach "newbies" and contact them privately.
Ooh...that's a capital crime.
I work under the assumption that people can think for themselves unless
they prove otherwise. Just because they're new to Usenet doesn't mean
they're stupid.
> He insists that "our overall USENET strategy must be to repeat powerful
> themes OVER AND OVER AND OVER". And so on.
And if they do so, I'll support cancelling them as spam. None of this has
anything to do with the proposed newsgroup.
> Why should a democratic system (such as Usenet)
I'm sorry, that's the wrong answer. We have some lovely consolation
prizes waiting for you off-stage.
Next!
Russ Allbery
> WHO is attacking who? We're not attacking anyone; we're following the
> proper conventions for USENET group creation, and here we have Mcvay and
> his allies violating several aspects of netiquette, such as unnecessary
> crossposting, in an effort to defeat the group before the RFD has even
> really started. I think his efforts are based in hysteria. If any fuel
> for a flame-war is being poured, look to Ken Mcvay, not me.
And the interesting thing about this paragraph is that he's entirely
correct.
I know it's rather hard to keep your head about you when arguing with
someone you find repugnant, but you're making them look good by
comparison folks.
Milton Kleim
>> I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
>> Power" music phenomenon.
> Then create a mailing list or an alt.* group.
Tell us, Stephanie, why you are opposed to a REC.music, if you acknowledge
the need for an ALT.music group?
It couldn't be your political views, could it?
And BTW, the mailing list exists; it's called RESISTLIST. Its popularity
indicates the potential popularity of a rec.music.white-power group.
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today. Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!" -- Bob Mathews
Milton Kleim
>>Mr. Mcvay represents the worst fears of every freedom-minded USENET surfer.
>>Mr. Mcvay represents the prototypical "Net Police" which, mistakenly,
>>are thought by most to only be a _proposal_ by various adherents of
>>McCarthyism. The Net Police are here -- NOW -- and Mr. Mcvay is the most
>>well-known. He finds it his duty to follow people around the Net,
> This is EXACTLY what Kleim does and advocates, as he writes in his "Tactics
> and Strategy for Usenet":
> If you have the time and money to spend, monitor the Enemy's
> groups [...] Relay such information to your comrades, possibly
> via the ANA
Where do I advocate _following_ people around the Net, and attacking them
on _inappropriate_ groups, like Mr. Mcvay has done and is doing, such as
on the country music groups? Is there something wrong with suggesting
people monitor soc.culture.jewish, where discussions occur about how to
deal with us, in violation of their own charter?
BTW, I find it curious how the opponents of rmwp are using "label/divert"
in these discussions, trying to make ME, rather than the group, the issue
for discussion. What relevance does the proponent's lawful political
views have to do with a music group's proposed creation?
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Proponent, rmwp
Milton Kleim
Richard H. Miller (ri...@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu) writes:
> Then where is the mailing list on the topic; you are jumping from statisitics
> for web visits to a world-wide group with no evidence of how many people are
> interested in the topic or what the volume would be; if you really feel there
> is interest, create a mailing list and when you get over 150-200 subscribers
> and 20-30 messages/day, start the process for an RFD.
There is the RESISTLIST, Resistance Records' mailing list concering White
Power music. There is Stormfront, where White Power music commentary occurs.
Both together have a total of over well 400 members.
Milton Kleim
Michel Fingerhut (fing...@ircam.fr) writes:
>>As a record company (Resistance Records) specializing in this
>>music, we support the creation of such a discussion group.
> They have a Web site, they have a mailing list, they have a magazine,
> and now they want a newsgroup. It is a political act, not a
> recreational one, so this SHOULD NEVER come into the "rec" hierarchy.
*I*, someone with no connection to Resistance Records, am the proponent
for this group. I saw the need for this group, and have solicited help
from RR, not vice-versa.
Perhaps your own ethnicity, Mr. Fingerhut, has something to do with your
staunch opposition to rec.music.white-power?
[alleged "quotations" from Mr. Hawthorne deleted]
David Lynch
would be a great idea! Personally, I love his version of "Standing In The
Shadows Of Love".
--
erase...@iglou.com / Not the finger-poppin' suave director / Ask me
about "The Aaron Ironwood School Of Sucess" TODAY! / Tape trades welcome
See the Soap WWW page at: http://www.rahul.net/ndanger/soap/soap.html
Jeffrey G. Brown
(Les Griswold) wrote:
> Yes, and we just look SO BAD when we don't hide or deny ANYTHING that we
> say, right?
Exactly.
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@pol.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
*Mailed replies to Usenet posts will not be considered confidential.*
Michel Fingerhut
>See the Soap WWW page at: http://www.rahul.net/ndanger/soap/soap.html
Ah, another one. Funny it comes out of the site (iglou.com) from which
Christopher Johnson, the so-called "Imperial Klaliff, Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan", operates.
What a nutkase.
kill...@earthlink.net
> >If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
> >flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
> >newsgroup qualifies, in spades
If, perhaps, only 25-30 "white-power" CDs were sold last year, it might be
appropriate to discuss
if this group qualifies to be shot down. However, I believe it will be
popular enough to warrant it's existence. Isn't that the real criteria?
--
FTW
Rajiv K. Gandhi
(Les Griswold) wrote:
> > i thought you were in favor of free speech, kenny.
>
> He doesn't. He believes in free speech, SORTA, as long as it only extends
> to people who use it "responsibly" (that is also left up to his definition)
Actually the responsible use of free speech is enshrined in the
constitution. Free speech is not now and has never been without limits.
That you think it is is demonstrative of your ignorance.
Michel Fingerhut
>If, perhaps, only 25-30 "white-power" CDs were sold last year, it might be
>appropriate to discuss if this group qualifies to be shot down.
Probably less, then. According to Resistance Records Newsletter 1(3) of
Mon., Dec. 11th:
DUE TO THE INCLUSION OF A RAHOWA song
on the new Milwaukee MetalFest Sampler CD,
European and North American distributors boycotted
the record store distribution of the album. This
resulted in the promoters being stuck with 2,000
extra copies
Just quoting.
Michael
Ken McVay OBC
kill...@earthlink.net wrote:
>If, perhaps, only 25-30 "white-power" CDs were sold last year, it might be
>appropriate to discuss
> if this group qualifies to be shot down. However, I believe it will be
>popular enough to warrant it's existence. Isn't that the real criteria?
No, it is not. The real criteria is whether or not a need for
this proposed group has been demonstrated. In practice, the
usual justification for a new group is to point out that
related groups have been dominated by discussions related to,
in this case, hate-rock. Thus, in order to stop interferring
with other discussions, a new group is approved solely for the
new topic.
On that level, it must first be demonstrated that groups such
as
alt.music.canada
alt.music.hardcore
alt.music.independent
alt.music.lyrics
alt.politics.white-power
alt.rock-n-roll
alt.rock-n-roll.hard
alt.rock-n-roll.metal
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.heavy
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
alt.politics.nationalism.white
alt.skinheads
rec.music.alternative
rec.music.dementia
rec.music.misc
rec.music.progressive, and
rec.music.promotional
Have been dominated by hate-rock discussions. That, in fact,
cannot be demonstrated - i.e. it hasn't happened, and there is
no demonstrated need. There are, quite clearly, more than
enough groups where these discussions could be held.
Further, no alt.music group has been created - one which might
be used to point to the need for greater distribution.
Creating such a group requires no votes, so if, as Mr. Kleim
insists, a need exists, why was such a group not created, in
the same way the "white power" alt. groups were created?
It has not been created because there is no need.
That is the long and the short of it.
Michel Fingerhut
>Perhaps your own ethnicity, Mr. Fingerhut, has something to do with your
>staunch opposition to rec.music.white-power?
As much as that of McVay, McCarthy and others, and as well as Kleim's in
his sect.
I don't know where my purported ethnicity came up. Is Kleim trying to
infer by _name_, as his friends are currently doing with such last
names as Zimmerman or first names like "Symour" [sic] being "true jewish
names"?
Speaking of names, Julius Rozenberg was one of the most horrible nazis
in action, "Milton" and "Kleim" are Jewish names. But are they honorable
men for that?
But let's speak of ethnicity, since he brought the topic up. Recently,
Kleim has very strongly opposed the determination of true aryanness by
gene counting or purity of lineage.
This has led some to think that, like Hitler and Wagner, his ethnicity
is not as "pure" as he would have it.
Kleim on ethnicity:
You see, Jen's new lover was Black. Nauseatingly
shortsighted, she believed her racial heritage was the cost of
her grandfather's salvation.
That should remove the ethnicity issue that he introduced from the
discussion. Is he next going to raise penis shape or any other idiotic
issue, as an argument?
--Michael
Michel Fingerhut
>The handling of votes in situations where a voter could be in physical
>danger if their name appears in the final vote tally is still being
>worked out
Come on, didn't you suggest, a contrario, that
>There's a hell of a big difference between a Usenet group creation and a
>country-wide election.
Is there, or is there not a "real" danger insofar as what happens on the
Internet?
Christopher B. Stone
Milton Kleim <bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Stephanie Smith (mspo...@mtcc.com) writes:
>
>>> I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
>>> Power" music phenomenon.
>
>> Then create a mailing list or an alt.* group.
>
>Tell us, Stephanie, why you are opposed to a REC.music, if you acknowledge
>the need for an ALT.music group?
Because rec.* implies that the attainment of "white power" is some sort
of legitimate recreational activity. Alt.* does not. Alt.* is for
"alternative" groups, after all.
>It couldn't be your political views, could it?
So what if it is? Stephanie's view is clearly that racism is wrong, and
she is entitled to express it. I applaud her for doing so.
--
Chris Stone * cbs...@phoenix.princeton.edu * http://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone
"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been
granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I
do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it." -John F. Kennedy
Jeffrey G. Brown
> Racial Theorist (x...@scsn.net) writes:
> > [...deletia...]
> > i thought you were in favor of free speech, kenny.
>
> He doesn't. He believes in free speech, SORTA, as long as it only extends
> to people who use it "responsibly" (that is also left up to his definition)
Are you quoting Mr. McVay, Griswold, and if so, can you provide a source
for that quote?
If you're not, then why are you putting words in Mr. McVay's mouth? Or do
you now claim telepathic abilities?
Watch Griswold duck and run on this one, folks...
Posted and emailed.
Milton Kleim
> >A group of the type I am proposing has never been put forth before, Mr.
> >Mcvay. The USENET community has not "rejected" such a group, as the need
> >for it has only arisen in the past few months.
> There is no need for a newsgroup dedicated to the "discussion"
> of crap like this:
> "Third Reich"
[alleged lyrics deleted]
I guess we're just supposed to "take your word for it" that Mr.
Hawthorne (Burdi) REALLY said that? You admit (below) that you make no
pretense of objectivity, so why should the reader accept your assertions
as valid?
> >> All of this, of course, sung off key by Mr. Burdi and his
> >> RaHoWa companions, with instruments so far out of tune it's
> >> painful to hear, and the entire band off beat.
> >I think the previous five lines of commentary made by you, Mr. Mcvay,
> >demonstrates your inability to be objective, sir. You may disagree with,
> >even revile, Mr. Burdi's (alleged) lyrics, but I think your extreme bias
> >and malicious assertions illustrate that you have an agenda motivated by
> >things other than you lead on.
> You're absolutely correct, Mr. Kleim. I am not remotely
> objective - Burdi's words, and I assure you they _are_ Burdi's
> words (perhaps you should ask him, if he hasn't yet started
> his year in the slammer for assault causing bodily harm - he's
> on the net, and so is his record company, Resistance) - I've
> seen and heard the tape, his words are a succinct and clear
> explanation for the existance of the trash you call music.
> Hate rock is deliberately used as a recruiting tool by the
> Nazis who produce it. It serves no other purpose.
"I assure you they _are_ Burdi's words."
Thank you. That instills LOTS of confidence in me. Just what are your
impecable credentials which demonstrate you cannot lie?
The Sun is blue. I can assure you it is.
> Malicious assertions, Mr. Kleim? To state that the band can't
> sing, play, or keep their instruments in tune is being KIND.
That is an OPINION, Mr. Mcvay, and you're entitled to it, but when you
imply such an opinion is some sort of "common knowledge," well, that's
dishonest.
> Agenda? Yes, I do. My agenda is to confront racists and
> right-wing extremists here on the net, and to expose them for
> exactly what they are.
No, Mr. Mcvay. You distort and manipulate. You are an "image manager"
-- for people whom you disagree with. You archive those things which
tell the side of the story YOU wish were the case, while conveniently
ignoring explanatory material which makes myself, Mr. Burdi, and our
friends to be seen as _just a bit_ less "evil" than you lead on.
> In your case, it means demonstrating that you are a
> hypocritical hatemonger, one who admitted he would lie
> whenever and wherever it suited his "cause." It means
> introducing the real Milton Kleim to the folks who don't know
> him yet.
Oh, yes, Mr. Mcvay, build your ego, and make yourself out to be something
greater than you are. Mr. Mcvay, you really _should_ see a professional,
since you often have delusions of grandeur.
I don't hide my beliefs, Mr. Mcvay. It just doesn't get through that
thick skull of yours that publicity is what I WANT. Our Cause is
_strengthened_ by publicity, even by your pathetic attempts to malign my
friends and I with your selective and crafted "dossiers."
I think it is obvious that I am a White Nationalist to the ordinary
USENETer, since my .sig is overtly racist, my views are overtly racist,
and I often post references to Website which arcive my works (the
accurate copies, not the distorted ones).
I guess what you mean by "expose" is really a euphemism for "distort."
> You rant and pontificate about the "abuse of UseNet
> conventions," all the while advocating the invasion of 15,000
> or so newsgroups for recruiting purposes. You cynically refer
> to your targets as "uninformed and unaware," showing your
> contempt for the millions of unwary people to whom you wish to
> present your "kinder, gentler" Adolf Hitler.
I welcome the reader to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" at this
address: http://www.io.com/~wlp/, under "Aryan Crusader's Library."
Most of the people who disagree with me yet have some honor and
objectivity agree that my work advocates nothing contrary to USENET
convention.
Mr. Mcvay is insensed that my work has been effective in circumventing
his activities, making his work much harder, a job for which he is PAID
for through grants and free equipment. I, on the other hand, do my work
out of sense of idealism. "Anti-racism" is a lucrative business, for
which there are many financial and political rewards. Mr. Mcvay's little
trophy from the Big Business stooges in British Columbia proves that.
> "The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of
> conscious and subconscious terror permeating every
> facet of society generated by strategic planning, a
> socially-caustic mix of money, myth, empowering dynamoes
> [sic] of the grand plan. ... I have revealed the heartfelt
> thoughts of a National Socialist with bold honesty" Milton
> Kleim, alt.revisionism, March 21, 1994.
My, you have some imagination.
Curious you didn't bother with a header. Yet another typical Mcvay "clipping"
of his opponents words.
> You are a charleton of the first order.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
You have to try harder, Ken. Statements like that are quite ordinary.
> >I wish to help create a venue for issues oriented around the "White
> >Power" music phenomenon. The creation of rec.music.white-power will have
> >little or no effect on the status of the genre in "mainstream" society,
> >including USENET.
> Horsepucky. You and your nazi friends want a solid, mainstream
> base for your internet recruiting efforts. You yourself
> advocated ignoring a newsgroup's subject matter, and invading
> it strictly for recruiting. You are a liar and a fraud, Mr.
> Kleim.
I challenge you to demonstrate WHERE I "advocated ignoring a newsgroups's
subject matter" to "invade" it.
We want a group which will be a venue for discussing a culture-form which
thousands of people in America, and many more across the world, enjoy.
We really don't give a damn if you don't like White Power music. If you
don't like it, don't listen to it, and certainly don't join a group where
it is discussed. What we are asking for is nothing that is "unique" or
"sinister." If one counts the "racist-oriented" groups, and compares
them to the multicultural- and ultra-left-oriented groups, the latter
outnumbers ours dozens to one.
> >White Power music will continue to be discussed on other music groups,
> >where it is only marginally appropriate, unless we allow a new venue to be
> >created where White Power music fans and others may post their comments
> >and news to. Those who frequent other music groups where White Power
> >music is discussed would be pleased that such a controversial topic would
> >be moved to another, more suitable, location.
> I suggest you join the Resistance Records mailing list, Mr.
> Kleim - those who go there have no illusions as to its
> purpose, so you'll feel right at home. The usual reason for a
> new group is that traffic devoted to it in a broader group has
> taken over the group... hate rock, for instance, dominating
> chatter in a rock music group.
I already receive the RESISTLIST. As do hundreds of others.
Some people cannot handle the load of a mailing list, but their system's
NNTP server offers them an alternative way to participate in discussions
about subjects they enjoy. But of course they're allowed to enjoy things
which only you approve of, correct Mr. Mcvay?
> What has been the percentage of traffic in the alt.music
> groups, Mr. Kleim? What? You don't know? How about
> alt.music.hardcore - Mr. Burdi tries to peddle his trash there
> from time to time - has hate-rock now dominated the group? In
> a pig's eye. There is no demonstrated need, Mr. Kleim, so
> perhaps you should issue a newgroup for alt.music.nazi or
> alt.music.hate-rock, and see what sort of traffic develops.
Mr. Mcvay, just admit that you are opposed to a REC.music group because
it would be harder for you to control. You are politically-motivated,
and are not in the least interested in "traffic load" (except maybe on
your news capture toy, with which you archive EVERY post which has the
slightest tinge of "racism").
> >I would think that an individual such as yourself, Mr. Mcvay, would
> >welcome the "isolation" of persons whom you don't agree with on their
> >"own" group. But I guess your motives are not as virtuous as may first
> >be perceived.
> Isolation? Phooey. You already have that, and you are openly
> advocating using the entire net to spread your racist
> propaganda. You don't want "isolation," Mr. Kleim, you want
> mainline exposure. More "unaware and ignorant" users for you to
> propagandize.
Do you object to my lurking in, and occasioally posting to, more than one or
two newsgroups? Apparently. Can you explain WHY I shouldn't be allowed
to post to several newsgroups, provided my comments are on topic? Can
you explain why it is alright for you to harrass people on groups where
they wish to discuss things they enjoy, like you did to Reverend Schoedel
on the country music group? If you didn't like his favorite artists,
fine, disagree with him, but what gives you the right to start a
_political_ flame war on a REC. group?
> What is it you feel they must be "unaware and ignorant" of,
> Mr. Kleim? Your vicious political agenda?
Like most Americans interested in politics, I have strong opinions about
the events and figures in the political scene of today. Is there
something wrong with sharing my views with others via USENET? Is there
something wrong with sharing my views with others by informing them of my
friends' Websites? Heck, I even tell them about YOUR Website.
If you wish to learn more about our "vicious political agenda," check out:
http://www.io.com/~wlp/
http://www.natvan.com/
http://stormfront.wat.com/stormfront/
Be forewarned, though, that the material you find is RADICAL, and may
cause you to think.
> >> _This_ is what your "National Alliance" stands for?
> >What does the National Alliance have to do with rec.music.white-power?
> It advocates hatred, Mr. Kleim, and so does the music.
I guess if you want to be so negative in all things, Mr. Mcvay, you can
say the Alliance "advocates hatred."
The National Alliance advocates "hatred" of crime and corruption. The
Alliance advocates hatred of the criminals who have sold out America and
the American worker for Third World capitalist ventures. The Alliance
advocates hatred of people who promote genocide of White Nations through
abortion, planned economic calamity, etc.
However, if one is more keen on seeing the world in a more positive
light, the National Alliance promotes love of the White Race. The
Alliance promotes love of America. The Alliance promotes good wages and
decent homes for American families. The Alliance promotes love of honor,
civic duty, sense of community and responsibility.
Perhaps maybe you don't like those things, Mr. Mcvay?
> >The National Alliance is a political activist organization, which has no
> >interest in the creation of the proposed newsgroup. Perhaps you are just
> >grasping for straws, Mr. Mcvay, and attempting to generate innunendo about
> >myself in a pathetic effort to divert attention from the genuine issues
> >relating to this RFD?
> "I will lie when it suits me." Milton Kleim
Oh, you're too funny, Ken.
When did you invent THIS quote?
> >archives, a project which has as a foremost goal the monitoring and
> >electronic stalking of individuals whom Mr. Mcvay and his handlers
> >disagree with.
> Handlers, Mr. Kleim? Who might my "handlers" be? No man
> handles me, Mr. Kleim. A friend said of me last year "he is
> the most single-minded man I've ever met," and he's absolutely
> right. I am also ferociously, rigidly independant, Mr. Kleim,
> as anyone who knows me will tell you. Your lies simply won't
> wash.
Who funds the Nizkor Project? Why did you quit your job at the gas station?
Do not Jewish groups and their representatives from around North America
support you, and give you "suggestions" on how to "fight the haters"?
Who funded and prepared your speaking escapade in Ontario last year?
Even the most independent person can have "mentors" and "guides." Mr.
Mcvay's are Jewish political activists. And they "handle" Mr. Mcvay by
giving him "goodies," whose continued receipt implicitly depends upon his
effective "activism."
> >Mr. Mcvay represents the worst fears of every freedom-minded USENET surfer.
> >Mr. Mcvay represents the prototypical "Net Police" which, mistakenly,
> >are thought by most to only be a _proposal_ by various adherents of
> >McCarthyism. The Net Police are here -- NOW -- and Mr. Mcvay is the most
> >well-known. He finds it his duty to follow people around the Net,
> >without regard for generally-accepted USENET convention. He recently
> >invaded rec.music.country, and in violation of its charter, began heated
> >_political_ diatribes on it.
> That's hilarious, Mr. Kleim, and typically hypocritical.
I'm sorry you're so cynical you find this funny. It's absolutely true.
> >have nothing to hide. And also check out the hundreds of other
> >"dossiers" -- his word -- in directories such as ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/
> >pub/fascism/dossier/ on Mr. Mcvay's system. Mr. Mcvay's mentors, J.
> >Edgar Hoover, and Joe McCarthy, would be proud.
> Hoover and McCarthy were dishonourable men, just like you, Mr.
> Kleim. My mentors, I assure you, were my twelve years of
> digital communications. Each one taught me something, as each
> one in the future will. Your innuendo won't wash.
Well, if you DIDN'T read up on McCarthyism, I apologize. But then,
you're a brilliant investigator who "just happened" to emulate these men.
You should have quit your job at the gas station long ago, and joined the
RCMP...or maybe CSIS. They can use people like you.
> >If you would like to research the REALITY behind one of the leading White
> >Power music distributors, please check out http://www.resistance.com/
>
> Owned by one George Burdi, of "You gas 'em real good" fame - a
> former "reverend" in the "Church of the Creator," former Klan
> recruiter, Heritage Front leader, and convicted felon. A
> 225-pound man convicted of kicking a 110-pound woman in the
> face with a steel-toed boot, and breaking her nose. A man who
> said, on CBC's Prime Time News Magazine, a national
> documentary, that he used his music to recruit. He discussed
> how many times a child would hear the words "white power" if
> he listened to a certain song a number of times in a day.
Your distortions NEVER stop, do they Ken? Mr. Burdi was held culpable,
because he was allegedly in the presence of the act, yes, but he did NOT
kick a 110 pound female in the face.
You wouldn't happen to have a citation to this CBC program, would you?
It's kind of convenient to cite a television program, since most people
don't have access to verify such claims.
> Mr. Burdi's role in Canada's hate movement, as a Heritage
> Front leader, is thoroughly documented in the Canadian
> Security and Intelligence Review Committee's Report to the
> Solicitor-General of Canada regarding "The Heritage Front
> Affair." This document may be read via URL
> ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/heritage-front/
CSIS, the group that funds racist groups to create "job security." They
have a _real_ good reputation, Mr. Mcvay.
> In closing, I would like to quote you, Mr. Kleim:
> Subject: _On Tactics and Strategy for USENET_
As stated above, don't bother with the excerpts, just read the whole
thing. You might learn something useful.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Proponent of rec.music.white-power
Michel Fingerhut
>Where do I advocate _following_ people around the Net, and attacking them
>on _inappropriate_ groups
The issue is not whether a group is appropriate for attacks, but whether
attacks are appropriate. His agenda and that of his followers has to do
with real attacks against people's rights, and ultimately against those
people themselves.
In his faq on nazism, he writes:
National Socialists [...] rejects the Establishment's false
democracy in which the illusion of a People's government bolstered by
a controlled system of "choices" that all invariably lead to the
_same_ end.
What is happening right in this newsgroup is a very small scale model of what
they want to do: use a democratical open system in order to bring it down.
This is why his insistence on APPROPRIATENESS OF A GROUP (according to some
rules he agrees to) rather than APPROPRIATENESS OF CONTENTS (according to
higher ideals, such as democratic ones).
>BTW, I find it curious how the opponents of rmwp are using "label/divert"
>in these discussions, trying to make ME, rather than the group, the issue
>for discussion.
Kleim exists, the group does not. He's the proponent of the group, so we
must discuss his agenda, whether or not he openly declares it. Should we
take at face value that "rape", "pedophilia" and "revisionist" groups, say,
are the arenas for human rights defendants?
Speaking of human rights, here's what Kleim writes:
The Establishment's fraudulent "United Nations" and other "human rights
organizations" are mere comforting facades [...]
The well-being of the Aryan Race is always our first concern
etc.
Michel Fingerhut
the intention of creating a facade. This is not the place where music
will be discussed, but the message. For as to music, this is what Kleim
writes in his nazism faq:
A National Socialist government will legislate and govern in
the best in- terests of the American People. National Socialism
will put an end to U.S. [...] Establishment-promoted and -defended
"rap songs" advocating murder of police officers purported
to be "music," [...]
Why should this proposed forum, discussing songs advocating murder of non-Aryan
people, should then be allowed, if in his ideal Amerikkka (as his friends call
the future state) rap music will be forbidden?
Jeffrey G. Brown
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
> Ken Mcvay replies to me:
> > "I will lie when it suits me." Milton Kleim
>
> Oh, you're too funny, Ken.
>
> When did you invent THIS quote?
I don't know if Ken's quote is accurate or not. I _do_ know that the
following quote is, Kleim:
> I have not lied about my beliefs, my research, or anything else of
> importance. But I _will_ use harmless deception (an acceptable
> tactic sanctioned by every sane political thinker since Plato) if it
> is to tactical advantage.
In other words, you will lie when it suits you.
Michel Fingerhut
His action has compelled some of you to assume the role I've
suggested since I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET."
Those of you who have lost APNW and APWP should immediately
become the pioneers of new, "mainstream" groups.
Venture out, Aryan warriors! Take up positions on "mainstream"
groups where our views have a legitimate place.
The new groups you MUST venture onto have 20 TIMES the
readership our groups have/had.
So rec.music.white-power is just a cover.
Michel Fingerhut
Agency, founded by Kleim in 93) writes:
>I strongly vote YES on the creation of rec.music.white-power.
>--Anton
"It couldn't be your political views, could it?" as Kleim put it?
Didn't you write about Harwood's book "the lies and exaggerations of
the "holocaust" and how it's been used to gain sympathy and billions of
dollars for jews world wide?"
Russ Allbery
> P.S. Since Mr. Kleim seems fairly knowledgeable about Usenet (as can
> be seen by reading his policy statement) I fully expect another
> battle front in this RFD will erupt when he insists on a secret vote.
If he asks for such a thing, he'll be told that it's not allowed on
Usenet.
> I believe that the proponent(s) of soc.recovery.disassociation were told
> that the next time they submitted an RFD/CFV that they could hold a
> secret vote, as long as they specified the need to do so in the CFV and
> cleared it with the Mentors.
They were told no such thing. The handling of votes in situations where a
voter could be in physical danger if their name appears in the final vote
tally is still being worked out, but secret ballot has already been
rejected as a solution. Usenet votes have to be verifiable by someone.
Michel Fingerhut
>Perhaps your own ethnicity, Mr. Fingerhut, has something to do with your
>staunch opposition to rec.music.white-power?
Since I didn't reply on that point: I am of a mixed ethnicity, in all
probability. As far back as one can tell, there was no attempt at inbreeding
in my ancestry (contrarily to the aryans). So maybe he should have attacked
me for my "lack of ethnicity?"
Aryans discuss race at length. They have trouble defining their own
criteria for what makes them aryans, other than their hatred of colored
people (blacks, really; not asians, arabs or hispanics - one of their
most adept activists is a spaniard, with quite a thick spanish accent
and Moor blood in his veins) and Jews.
The latter are conspicuously _not_ a "race" (a term that has no
scientific existence) nor an ethnic group: it is composed of mixes of
asians, caucasians, ethiopians, black - any - stock. The only proviso
to becoming a Jew was not the DNA makeup, but a conscious will to
become one. That's why the aryans have trouble determining who's a Jew
- they try to do it now by the sound of the name. Next they'll be
using astrology.
Inbreeding is the way to imbecility. I can't but wholesomely support the
aryans' wish to continue to inbreed. The signs are already showing. But,
contrarily to their spiritual fathers, the nazis, who exterminated the
mentally retarded, they will be allowed to live on a pension.
Michael
Lisa Pavlov
>[Advocacy mode on]
>
>This is a valuable discussion, not directly related to an ongoing RFD, which
>would be lost under some of the news.groups.moderated proposals. It also
>demonstrates proper subject line changing. Keep news.groups unmoderated!
[my advocacy mode on]
Hey, I agree that this is a valuable discussion but I think the point some
people are making (myself included) is that many people who are interested
won't even see your posting because they are so turned off to
news.groups right now because of all the flame artists and completely
off-topic posts.
Some of us who advocate some form of moderation for news.groups merely
advocate some splitting off of RFD discussions--we do not advocate
ending other Usenet newsgroup creation (or removal or reorganization)
discussions. I believe we should consider some sort of splitting off
of RFD discussions as the current process wants all RFD discussions to
occur in this group which often has so much garbage in it...we ask
newbies to discuss RFDs only in news.groups but the group is so full of
flames, etc. that the newbies get turned off and don't participate.
That's the issue some of us are grappling with.
regards, Lisa
Milton Kleim
>> P.S. Since Mr. Kleim seems fairly knowledgeable about Usenet (as can
>> be seen by reading his policy statement) I fully expect another
>> battle front in this RFD will erupt when he insists on a secret vote.
> If he asks for such a thing, he'll be told that it's not allowed on
> Usenet.
We have nothing to hide. I have no problem with a public vote, which I
understood from the beginning was the procedure.
We will deal with harassment of "yes" voters in the appropriate, legal way.
-- Milton Kleim
Milton Kleim
>> Ken Mcvay replies to me:
>> > "I will lie when it suits me." Milton Kleim
>> Oh, you're too funny, Ken.
>> When did you invent THIS quote?
> I don't know if Ken's quote is accurate or not. I _do_ know that the
> following quote is, Kleim:
>> I have not lied about my beliefs, my research, or anything else of
>> importance. But I _will_ use harmless deception (an acceptable
>> tactic sanctioned by every sane political thinker since Plato) if it
>> is to tactical advantage.
> In other words, you will lie when it suits you.
First we had Mcvay acting alone. Now we have conspiracy.
I challenge you to _prove_ I said that. I contest this "quotation" as
being more hot air from you, Mr. Brown.
Both "quotations" are from Mcvay and friends' "bag o' tricks."
-- Milton Kleim
Colin R. Leech
The last thing we need on mainstream (Big 8) Usenet is a place for racists
to hang out. It's bad enough having alt.politics.white-power. If more
racist newsgroups must be created, let them be in alt.*. Just vote NO.
--
##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech = ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\| |/|_ If you can't return a favour, pass it on.
##### > < Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### >_./|\._< Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
Ken McVay OBC
>Ken Mcvay replies to me:
>> There is no need for a newsgroup dedicated to the "discussion"
>> of crap like this:
"Third Reich"
(One, two, three four)
You kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
You kill a gypsy and a coloured too
Kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
Kill a gypsy and a coloured too
You just killed a kike
Don't it feel right
Goodness, gracious, darn right
You wake up in the morning
You climb up the tower
You say to yourself it's nigger killing hour
[more of the same]
When we reach the final hours
We'll jum into the showers
You gas them real good
Cause you're full of white power
Reach the final hours
We take them to the showers
We gas 'em real good
Cause you're full of white power"
>I guess we're just supposed to "take your word for it" that Mr.
>Hawthorne (Burdi) REALLY said that? You admit (below) that you make no
>pretense of objectivity, so why should the reader accept your assertions
>as valid?
You don't have to take anyone's word for it, Mr. Kleim. Send
Mr. Burdi a note and ask him, or visit his company's web page
and see if it's listed there. Mr. Burdi can be reached at
rah...@inforamp.com.
>No, Mr. Mcvay. You distort and manipulate. You are an "image manager"
>-- for people whom you disagree with. You archive those things which
>tell the side of the story YOU wish were the case, while conveniently
>ignoring explanatory material which makes myself, Mr. Burdi, and our
>friends to be seen as _just a bit_ less "evil" than you lead on.
I archive your own words, and those of other virulent racists.
Whatever "side" of the story is told is told you their own
words.
>I don't hide my beliefs, Mr. Mcvay. It just doesn't get through that
>thick skull of yours that publicity is what I WANT. Our Cause is
>_strengthened_ by publicity, even by your pathetic attempts to malign my
>friends and I with your selective and crafted "dossiers."
Your words malign you, Mr. Kleim.
>I think it is obvious that I am a White Nationalist to the ordinary
>USENETer, since my .sig is overtly racist, my views are overtly racist,
>and I often post references to Website which arcive my works (the
>accurate copies, not the distorted ones).
>I guess what you mean by "expose" is really a euphemism for "distort."
Please demonstrate that I have "distorted" your writing, Mr.
Kleim.
>> "The Jew rules only through fear, an atmosphere of
>> conscious and subconscious terror permeating every
>> facet of society generated by strategic planning, a
>> socially-caustic mix of money, myth, empowering dynamoes
>> [sic] of the grand plan. ... I have revealed the heartfelt
>> thoughts of a National Socialist with bold honesty" Milton
>> Kleim, alt.revisionism, March 21, 1994.
>My, you have some imagination.
>Curious you didn't bother with a header. Yet another typical Mcvay "clipping"
>of his opponents words.
The entire article is readily available on my ftp site. It is
interesting that you didn't point that out. The URLs are, for
the header alone:
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/1994/header-0394
for the entire article:
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/1994/kleim-0394
of specific interest, because it goes directly to the issue of
your honesty, is the file
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/kleim-on-lying
>We want a group which will be a venue for discussing a culture-form which
>thousands of people in America, and many more across the world, enjoy.
>We really don't give a damn if you don't like White Power music. If you
The issue is not what you do or do not enjoy, Mr. Kleim. The
issue is that you have failed to demonstrate a need for this
group. You have failed to provide statistics supporting that
need, or showing that some or any of the music groups are
dominated by discussions of wp music - these, for instance:
alt.music.canada
alt.music.hardcore
alt.music.independent
alt.music.lyrics
alt.rock-n-roll
alt.rock-n-roll.hard
alt.rock-n-roll.metal
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.heavy
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive
rec.music.alternative
rec.music.dementia
rec.music.misc
rec.music.progressive
rec.music.promotional
Where are the numbers, Mr. Kleim?
Where is the alt. group for wp music, which you could use to
demonstrate (1) the need and (2) that the high volume of
traffic justifies wider, mainline distribution.
>Some people cannot handle the load of a mailing list, but their system's
>NNTP server offers them an alternative way to participate in discussions
>about subjects they enjoy. But of course they're allowed to enjoy things
>which only you approve of, correct Mr. Mcvay?
Where are the numbers?
Where is the alt.rock-n-roll.white-power group?
>Mr. Mcvay, just admit that you are opposed to a REC.music group because
>it would be harder for you to control. You are politically-motivated,
>and are not in the least interested in "traffic load" (except maybe on
>your news capture toy, with which you archive EVERY post which has the
>slightest tinge of "racism").
Don't try to avoid the question, Mr. Kleim. Where are the
numbers? (Mr. Kleim has a history of making statements he
can't substantiate - see URL
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/kleim-10q
for the proof.)
>Your distortions NEVER stop, do they Ken? Mr. Burdi was held culpable,
>because he was allegedly in the presence of the act, yes, but he did NOT
>kick a 110 pound female in the face.
How do you know that, Mr. Kleim? The jury didn't say that -
they said he was guilty. Period.
>You wouldn't happen to have a citation to this CBC program, would you?
>It's kind of convenient to cite a television program, since most people
>don't have access to verify such claims.
Try CTV's "Hearts of Hate" for starters, Mr. Kleim - it's been
broadcast several times, and shown all over Canada at
universities, etc. (The CBC program I referenced initially was
not the correct one, and I now both concede the error and
correct it. CTV Television will provide copies of "Hearts of
Hate," perhaps for a small fee.
>
>have a _real_ good reputation, Mr. Mcvay.
>
SIRC found no evidence that CSIS funded the Heritage Front.
Read their exhaustive report, rather than depending upon media
reports which were incorrect. That's why the report is there,
Mr. Kleim.
Related information:
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
Sirilyan
1. Ken McVay provides URLs pointing to archived copies of posts made by
Kleim and others, in which their agenda of bullshit spew comes through
unedited by editorial comments - they are, afdter all, their *own* words
that have been archived.
And 2. Kleim and others try to whine "But that's not what we said, that's
not what we meant."
Until Kleim starts using PGP or other authentication software, I have much
more cause to believe Ken McVay (who's been honored by the government of
British Columbia for his work) than Kleim, who has stated in the past that
lying isn't such a bad thing if it gets your cause in the spotlight.
I also hacven't seen the substantiation of the "pressing need" for r.m.wp
that can't be satisfied by an alt.group, a mailing list, or moving out wp
traffic from other music newsgroups. So, for once, my conscience and my
membership in the Usenet Cabal[tm] can work in agreement: I can vote no to a
bunch of pinheaded, fuckbrained racists, AND I can vote to a goroup without
any demonstrated need.
The best part, of course, is that if there's enough interest, the YES votes
fro this group can be made into a trn killfile to help raise the
signal/noise ratio of Usenet for those who have decided, of their own free
will without "censorship" or "coercion" by any sort of imagined "Enemy",
that they don't need this shit. Kleim may have done the whole Usenet a
service by showing the faces of racists to the world, so that we now know
who can be safely ignored as prattling idiots.
-Sirilyan, member of the HUMAN race (there is no other!)
--
| Doug "Sirilyan" Sheppard <siri...@io.com> http://www.io.com/~sirilyan
| See the fnords! (In color!) http://www.io.com/~sirilyan/archive23
| How John Grubor has changed Usenet: "I now think better of retroactive
| abortion." - Anonymous
Russell Steinthal
Lisa Pavlov <lhpa...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Some of us who advocate some form of moderation for news.groups merely
>advocate some splitting off of RFD discussions--we do not advocate
>ending other Usenet newsgroup creation (or removal or reorganization)
>discussions. I believe we should consider some sort of splitting off
>of RFD discussions as the current process wants all RFD discussions to
>occur in this group which often has so much garbage in it...we ask
>newbies to discuss RFDs only in news.groups but the group is so full of
>flames, etc. that the newbies get turned off and don't participate.
>That's the issue some of us are grappling with.
[An aside: My subject line certainly lasted a long time... :) ]
I have two main objections to moderating news.groups. First, that there
are important discussions, not directly related to specific groups which
will be lost. (That's the one I stated in the previous message in this
thread.) The second objection is that splitting RFDs off into another,
moderated group will not actually make it any easier to follow the
discussion.
I understand that the various proposals all provide somewhere for the
non-RFD discussion to continue. But consider this scenario. The group
news.groups.moderated is created for the RFDs and their followups, using
some sort of robomoderator. What then will be left in news.groups or
news.groups.misc? Random crossposts, spams, flames, oh, and also
discussions about the group creation process. While these discussions
are important, indeed, essential, they tend to come in spurts.
Situations such as the UVV crisis of last year arise, or a question from
a pending RFD sparks interest in the reasons for voting for a group.
There isn't always an ongoing discussion that would fit into that
category. So we will be asking people to follow news.groups regularly so
that they can see those types of discussions when they crop up.
Essentially, that scenario guarantees that news.groups will have a S:N
ration so low that nobody will continue to read it. (The only things which
keeps the S:N ratio tolerable now are the RFD discussions.)
My second objection is that creating a moderated group won't help matters.
I think we can all agree that any moderation will have to be
content-neutral; someone reading all the submissions and deciding which
would be posted would taint the voting process too much. So the criteria
would have to be based on some combination of header lines, such as
subject, newsgroups, references, etc. What would you do, however, about
flamewars such as the one now developing since the rec.music.white-power
RFD was first posted? It is, luckily, not crossposted. It has kept a
constant subject line, or at least a constant identifier. And most of it
has a proper reference chain back to the RFD post. So it would still be
in news.groups.moderated. The same thing can be said about the
misc.activism.militia discussion last year (although that was crossposted).
And all it would take would be one flame posted under a proper subject
line to allow a new flamewar to develop in the group, with proper subject
lines, reference chains, etc. Without a human moderator imposing a
content based criterion, it can't be stopped.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=
Russell Steinthal <ste...@avnet.org>
<ste...@intac.com> <rm...@columbia.edu>
Wouldn't you be confused if someone went around with 3 names in the real world?
Falcon2840
is a distinct art form, and hence deserves discussion in a
separate forum. It should be noted that such established
musical disciplines as jazz, classical, rock, and so forth
have their devoted followers, hence a group for white-power
is quite reasonable.
While some may object to certain lyrics in some of the compositions,
it is relevant that other segments of music, and in fact of art in
general,
can give offense to some segments or even most segments of society
at large. Such offense serves the purpose of challenging the viewer
or listener to consider the nature of their own views and beliefs, and
hence
can create intellectual and societal benefits quite aside from the merit
or lack thereof of the work itself.
Additionally, many musical forms contain advocacy for various
behaviors that many might deplore. Rap music comes to mind,
as does reggae, and even folk music. Heavy metal and so-called
hard rock make use of such lyrics; in truth, even country and western
music, with its frequent use of themes including drunkenness, infidelity,
and a dissipative lifestyle might not pass a stringent test for socially
desireable wording.
I urge others to vote Yes on this group, in the interest of freedom of
speech on the internet, and freedom of expression in the arts.
Stephanie Smith
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
> Tell us, Stephanie, why you are opposed to a REC.music, if you
> acknowledge the need for an ALT.music group?
I don't "acknowledge the need" for an alt.* group. I think that the lack
of demonstrated demand makes it more appropriate.
> It couldn't be your political views, could it?
Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.
--
Stephanie Smith ------- st...@wimsey.com -------mspo...@mtcc.com
You could never be strong / You can only be free
And I never asked for the truth / But you owe that to me
Russ Allbery
> Since when do people "mobilize" during a regular newsgroup creation
> process?
It's been happening for at least a couple of years, and probably
considerably longer than that. (Not that I like it, mind you.)
Russ Allbery
> Actually the responsible use of free speech is enshrined in the
> constitution.
Citation please. I don't believe the United States Constitution says
anything at all about responsible use.
(Of course, it also doesn't apply to private parties, and hence is
irrelevant to a newsgroup proposal, not to mention that Usenet is a global
medium, but it's always a good idea to correct mistakes when seen.)
Kirt Kraeuter
>bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA/ag...@detroit.freenet.org (Milton Kleim) writes:
>>Where do I advocate _following_ people around the Net, and attacking them
>>on _inappropriate_ groups
>
>The issue is not whether a group is appropriate for attacks, but whether
>attacks are appropriate. His agenda and that of his followers has to do
>with real attacks against people's rights, and ultimately against those
>people themselves.
>
>In his faq on nazism, he writes:
>
> National Socialists [...] rejects the Establishment's false
> democracy in which the illusion of a People's government bolstered by
> a controlled system of "choices" that all invariably lead to the
> _same_ end.
>
>What is happening right in this newsgroup is a very small scale model of what
>they want to do: use a democratical open system in order to bring it down.
Yes. I see what you're saying, but I think that it leads to a Catch-22
in a democratic system, even an anarchistic one like UseNet. Democratic
freedoms are based on the ability of anyone to say anything, no matter
how offensive to a group of people - within limits. Here in the US, the
courts have upheld the right of Aryans to speak, of the KKK to march,
etc. UseNet is not the US, but it's been my experience that there are a
lot of people who say _anything goes to protect free speech_ but then
back right off when faced with a proposal like this one. So, the
question becomes less one of do the majority of UseNetters find the
prinicples espoused disgusting (as I am sure most due) and more one of if
the group is following the rules.
>
>This is why his insistence on APPROPRIATENESS OF A GROUP (according to some
>rules he agrees to) rather than APPROPRIATENESS OF CONTENTS (according to
>higher ideals, such as democratic ones).
Yes. But democracy is a system that places its entire faith in the
rules. When people stop using the rules, the systems fail...is UseNet
going to change the rules according to what is _correct_ thinking? This
is, IMHO, much more dangerous than allowing the group to pass or fail on
its own - because once rules are bent, or broken, the temptation for
those in power to do so quickly mounts, and soon even good ideas that are
slightly outside the ruling paradigm become _wrong_ thinking. That
scares me more than a bunch of racists.
>
>>BTW, I find it curious how the opponents of rmwp are using "label/divert"
>>in these discussions, trying to make ME, rather than the group, the issue
>>for discussion.
You should not be the issue for discussion. I think they are doing this,
as well. Don't let them - keep on the issues in the posts, and I'm sure
a great number of people will do the same.
>
>Kleim exists, the group does not. He's the proponent of the group, so we
>must discuss his agenda, whether or not he openly declares it. Should we
>take at face value that "rape", "pedophilia" and "revisionist" groups, say,
>are the arenas for human rights defendants?
>
>Speaking of human rights, here's what Kleim writes:
>
> The Establishment's fraudulent "United Nations" and other "human rights
> organizations" are mere comforting facades [...]
>
> The well-being of the Aryan Race is always our first concern
>
>etc.
>
>Michael
Errr... I guess I have to agree here, although I don't like to - by
drawing Kleim into it, you leave the door open to have the diversive
tactics you condemn above brought in...But without the group, I guess the
person who wants it is a good second choice..
Kirt
Joellen Welch
: Why shouldn't there be a white power NG? It'll keep WP out of
: alt.skinheads at least, and besides, there's plenty of fucked up NGs like
: alt.kiddie.porn or something. Dammit free speech is for everybody, ya
: facist!
: -Eddie
There is a white power NG -- alt.politics.white-power ... I know you're
not interested in going on it, but i was just mentioning that there is.
Your server probably doesn't carry it if you didn't know about it.
___ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_ _/
==)))) _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ \_ _/
=\\o\o _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ \_ _/
//@ ~ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ \_/
_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ \
jow...@lynx.neu.edu
Jeffrey G. Brown
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
> Jeffrey G. Brown (jeff_...@pol.com) writes:
>
> >> Ken Mcvay replies to me:
>
> >> > "I will lie when it suits me." Milton Kleim
>
> >> Oh, you're too funny, Ken.
>
> >> When did you invent THIS quote?
>
> > I don't know if Ken's quote is accurate or not. I _do_ know that the
> > following quote is, Kleim:
>
> >> I have not lied about my beliefs, my research, or anything else of
> >> importance. But I _will_ use harmless deception (an acceptable
> >> tactic sanctioned by every sane political thinker since Plato) if it
> >> is to tactical advantage.
>
> > In other words, you will lie when it suits you.
>
> First we had Mcvay acting alone. Now we have conspiracy.
>
> I challenge you to _prove_ I said that. I contest this "quotation" as
> being more hot air from you, Mr. Brown.
>
> Both "quotations" are from Mcvay and friends' "bag o' tricks."
>
> -- Milton Kleim
Here's the entire email you sent me, on 1/8/95:
===== begin email text =====
>But you have not withdrawn the claim. That would actually require some
>courage, and it is your lack of that quality that is under discussion.
I will never withdraw the claim that I saw what I saw, because I did see it.
I have admitted I can not provide the citation to the work in which I saw it.
That is all I can and will admit.
>That's simply a less childish way of saying that you want the last word at all
>costs.
Isn't that just terrible? :-)
It's the shits when the opponent starts using your own tactics, isn't it?
>> If you post this message, I will deny I wrote it.
>Confirming my suspicion that you consider lying an acceptable way of achieving
>your ends. You've learned the Nazi lessons well, haven't you?
The ends justify the means. Don't speak of honesty until you admit THAT
universal truth. Of course I am always prepared to do and say anything which
contributes to the security of my People. I learned that from the Jewish Bible.
Don't misconstrue the above statement as meaning I "know" the Holocaust
happened. I don't believe for a second it did. I have not lied about my
beliefs, my research, or anything else of importance. But I _will_ use harmless
deception (an acceptable tactic sanctioned by every sane political thinker
since Plato) if it is to tactical advantage.
>You missed one: not having the guts to either back up your statements or admit
>error.
Do you just have shit for brains, or are you lying?
You know damn well I have admitted many errors on AR.
>> Have the honor to admit the truth.
>Certainly.
>It is true that you are a coward.
HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= RFC822 Headers Follow =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
X-ENSMTPTo: jeff_brown
X-ENSMTPSubnet: pol
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 13:35:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "MILTON JOHN KLEIM, JR." <HER...@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>
To: jeff_...@pol.com
Message-Id: <950108133...@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Refuge of a Coward: call your opponent one first
===== end email text =====
I know you sent this, Kleim.
You know you sent this, Kleim.
Can I provide any independent truth you said this? No. Nor do I care. We
both know what you are. If you choose to deny it in public, fine. That
doesn't change what you are: a liar and coward.
Jenn Starkman
You "concur"? How can you "agree with" something that's not a statement?
Here's a clue, hon: Big words aren't impressive unless you use them
correctly.
>White power music
> is a distinct art form, and hence deserves discussion in a
Prove it.
How is wp music a distinct art form? The lyrics are the only things which
separate it from other music of the same genres (hardcore, heavy-metal,
etc.), and given that the lyrics are simply political messages, there is
no need to form a new newsgroup for their discussion--there are already
*two* newsgroups devoted to exactly that.
Otherwise, what has this "distinct art form" contributed to the world
musically? How is white power hardcore any different from regular
hardcore, other than it's lyrics? How is wp heavy-metal different from
non-wp heavy metal?
Simply put: It's not.
I challenge you to point out *anything* about white power music that is
musically innovative. You know what? You can't, because it's not.
> separate forum. It should be noted that such established
> musical disciplines as jazz, classical, rock, and so forth
> have their devoted followers, hence a group for white-power
> is quite reasonable.
Not at all. White power music is not a musical genre of its own. Rather,
it comes under the headings of various other forms of music--rock 'n roll,
hardcore, heavy-metal, etc. There are already newsgroups for each of
these genres. White power music is not a "musical discipline".
Again, I ask you to demonstrate what it is about wp music, other than the
lyrics, which makes it a distinct musical form.
> I urge others to vote Yes on this group, in the interest of freedom of
> speech on the internet, and freedom of expression in the arts.
Bravo! *applause*
...except that the concerns people have expresses about this newsgroup
have never been *about* stifling freedom of speech (there are, after all,
already 2 wp newsgroups), or freedom of expression (how could voting no to
a Usenet newsgroup have anything to do with how musicians express
themselves?).
They have to do with the appropriateness of the rec.* hierarchy in
relation to this proposed newsgroup, and with the lack of demonstrated need
for such a newsgroup (rec.* is, after all, not a free-for-all like
alt.*--there are standard rules here for creation of a newsgroup, and this
one doesn't seem to fit them).
I remain firmly AGAINST the creation of rec.music.white-power.
Jenn
--
X-Chelsea (bb...@freenet.carleton.ca)
"If you think it's messy out here, | "Anything which states an
you should see what it looks like | opinion is propaganda..."
[in my head]..." (Kurt Vonnegut) |
EddieHTOMB
Religion newsgroup and an Operation Ivy newsgroup. I mean, if they can
have an NG about a band who broke up 7 years ago, released one album, and
never toured, then they can have one about a genre of music with 100s of
bands.
-Eddie
Mjollnir88
I would also encourage anyone who comes across this to stop being lazy and
do something for a change. Take action! Vote yes for this group!
My Honor Is Called Loyalty
Mjollnir88
David Lynch
: Yes! Formation of this newgroup would be great. I vote yes.
: I would also encourage anyone who comes across this to stop being lazy and
: do something for a change. Take action! Vote yes for this group!
I vote yes as well! Great White was the coolest band of the 1980s!
Whitesnake was okay, too, and Barry White is making a big comeback right
now, so I think there's a real need for the group.
: My Honor Is Called Loyalty
My Love Is Like A Great Big Truck.
--
erase...@iglou.com / Not the finger-poppin' suave director / Ask me
about "The Aaron Ironwood School Of Sucess" TODAY! / Tape trades welcome
See the Soap WWW page at: http://www.rahul.net/ndanger/soap/soap.html
EddieHTOMB
>There is a white power NG -- alt.politics.white-power ... I know you're
>not interested in going on it, but i was just mentioning that there is.
>Your server probably doesn't carry it if you didn't know about it.
I did actually know about it, I've even read it and posted in it,
buuuuuuuut, it's political, not musical. rec.music.white.power would keep
nazi skins out of alt.skins, since they'd more likely be attracted to an
ng about music than a politics discussion.
-Eddie
Mark Staloff
: Yes! Formation of this newgroup would be great. I vote yes.
: I would also encourage anyone who comes across this to stop being lazy and
: do something for a change. Take action! Vote yes for this group!
Everyone remember, the first five AOL people to respond only count once. :-)
Mark
Arun Malik
>They were told no such thing. The handling of votes in situations where a
>voter could be in physical danger if their name appears in the final vote
>tally is still being worked out, but secret ballot has already been
>rejected as a solution. Usenet votes have to be verifiable by someone.
I should have been more clear. The votetaker would know who voted and
could verify. However, a voter would be able to request that their
name not be listed when the Results article is posted, i.e.:
a) just the email address is listed (the votetaker does not list the
name next to the email address).
b) or both the email address and name are omitted and a line stating
that xx number of Yes voters asked that their email address and name
remain unpublished (secret).
Milton Kleim
[alleged e-mail deleted]
> I know you sent this, Kleim.
Some people do have hallucinations, Mr. Brown.
> You know you sent this, Kleim.
Hmmm.... You can read minds, too?
> Can I provide any independent truth you said this? No. Nor do I care. We
> both know what you are. If you choose to deny it in public, fine. That
> doesn't change what you are: a liar and coward.
Nor do I really care either. The only reason I respond to this post is
because I want to draw attention to it. You illustrate exactly what I and
my friends have to put up with, and what a threat to the entire USENET
community people like you are.
There would be _NO_ "war" on USENET if it weren't for you and your allies
engaging in tactics of a militant nature. I joined the USENET community
in 1993, and _from day one_, over 15 months before I even contemplated
writing "Tactics," your fellows engaged in deception, innuendo, and other
dirty tricks. All I was doing is putting forth a controversial viewpoint,
and I was literally attacked in the most debased ways. People with _your_
viewpoint, Mr. Brown, lack the tolerance you accuse us of having.
The creation of rec.music.white-power is something which we are attempting
because there are hundreds of people on USENET who enjoy this music. But
just as in October 1993, the self-appointed Net Police have activated
their army of minions to extend their war on USENET, not merely to
following people around, and spreading distortions and outright lies, but
to challenge directly the whole purpose of USENET. IF they get their way,
and defeat us "Nazis," they just won't close up shop, and go away.
They'll find _another_ target...
Mr. Brown and Mcvay and everyone else are opposing rmwp not because
"there's no need" for it, but rather because they want to impose _their_
beliefs, _their_ will, upon others.
There's a word for that: fascism.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Proponent of rec.music.white-power
Scott Forbes
|I don't remember ever seeing a group with demonstrated sufficient interest
|fail except in cases of voting problems like that or in cases where there
|was some namespace-related (not content-related) objection to the group.
Hmmm. I'd say "soc.culture.macedonia" had sufficient interest, and I
doubt its opponents were concerned about namespace purity -- at least,
not at the USENET level. :-/
ObACLU: I think it was Mike Godwin of the EFF who said (paraphrased),
"We defend offensive speech because nobody tries to ban the other kind."
Daniel Bernstein
>Kleim writes to his Komrades:
>
> His action has compelled some of you to assume the role I've
> suggested since I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET."
> Those of you who have lost APNW and APWP should immediately
> become the pioneers of new, "mainstream" groups.
>
> Venture out, Aryan warriors! Take up positions on "mainstream"
> groups where our views have a legitimate place.
>
> The new groups you MUST venture onto have 20 TIMES the
> readership our groups have/had.
>
>So rec.music.white-power is just a cover.
Most definitely so. Seeing that people are voting on this topic, I give it an
ABSOLUTE NO!!!!!! It's bad enough that these people are spreading hate through
other methods. There's no need to have these Nazis doing their dirty work on
the 'net.
Stephan Schulz
Milton Kleim <bb...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> unmoderated group rec.music.white-power
>
>This is a formal Request for Discussion for the creation of the
>unmoder- ated Usenet newsgroup rec.music.white-power. This is not a
>Call for Votes - do not vote now. To participate in the discussion,
>follow the topic on news.groups. Please do not discuss the group
>creation in other groups - it will most probably be off topic there.
[...]
Hey Miltie-Boy!
I don't mind if someone borrows my words for a reasonable proposal
like soc.history.war.us-revolution. However, I do not want to have
your racist bullshit associated with an RFD text originally written by
me (for the soc.history.medieval proposal). If you ever move to the
2nd RFD, I expect you to change the quoted passage, as well as the
"procedure" paragraph. Or is the collective intelligence of your
"Aryan" dumbbells insufficient to express some simple facts in 15 to
20 lines of plain English?
A humble apology would also be welcome...
BTW, I think this group is completely superfluous. "White Power" is
not a musical, but a political phenomenon. There is nothing in the
music that cannot be found in punk, hard-rock, or some other
categories. What sets "White Power" music apart from the rest is the
stupidity of the lyrics ("Bee-Bob-A-LooBa" sounds a lot more sensible
than _that_ kind of text). If you want a political newsgroup for your
fascist ideology you should propose one - there is no need for a group
about "White Power" music.
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as sch...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michel Fingerhut
>Democratic freedoms are based on the ability of anyone to say anything, no
>matter how offensive to a group of people - within limits.
Within limits, right. And these are not all codified.
Besides, there are different readings of what democracy is. The limits,
in the US, tend more to have to do with, say, pornography than racism,
while here in France it is the opposite. Both are countries with a
democratic tradition.
>Yes. But democracy is a system that places its entire faith in the rules.
Quite luckily, this is not quite true. There are some moral or ethical
principles which are not codified, yet which are at the basis of these
democratic systems. These priciples are those that safeguard democracy
against its being perverted through its own rules: e.g., a soldier may
disobey orders in certain cases, even though these orders are legal
and technically within the rules.
>When people stop using the rules, the systems fail...
See above: there are some cases when not using the rules is used to save
the system. And conversely, the system may be brought down by strict use
of its rule (see the alt.syntactical.whatever group purpose).
Michael
--
WWW: http://www.ircam.fr (IRCAM)
http://www.cnac-gp.fr (Centre Georges-Pompidou)
http://www.videomuseum.fr (Videomuseum)
ftp: ftp.ircam.fr -- tel: +33 1 44 78 48 53 -- fax: +33 1 42 77 29 47
Russ Allbery
> Hmmm. I'd say "soc.culture.macedonia" had sufficient interest, and I
> doubt its opponents were concerned about namespace purity -- at least,
> not at the USENET level. :-/
There was a namespace-related objection to soc.culture.macedonia.
Frank Weltner
this song is funny. May God forgive you for demeaning the Jews who did
nothing to you, except aid your science, technology, religion, philosophy,
medicine, banking, technology, etc., and provide the groundwork for
Christianity itself.
Frank Weltner
pot...@mo.net
In article <4ckdek$c...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmc...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
:If ever there was a UseNet CFD that was destined to be shot down in
:flames, big-time, Nazi Milton Kleim's call for a "white power" music
:newsgroup qualifies, in spades.
:
:In article <8208662...@uunet.uu.net>,
:bb...@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim) wrote:
:
:> There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power
:> music, a phenomenon which is international in scope.
:
:Good on UseNet, Mr. Kleim, for having the good sense to reject
:this sort of racist crap during all of these marvellous years
:of growth.
:
:Consider the following vitriolic trash, vomited by Canada's George
:Burdi (aka George Hawthorne, aka The Reverend Eric Hawthorne):
:
:
: "Third Reich"
:
:(One, two, three four)
:
:You kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
:You kill a gypsy and a coloured too
:Kill all the niggers and you gas all the Jews
:Kill a gypsy and a coloured too
:
:You just killed a kike
:Don't it feel right
:Goodness, gracious, darn right
:
:You wake up in the morning
:You climb up the tower
:You say to yourself it's nigger killing hour
:
:[more of the same]
:
:When we reach the final hours
:We'll jum into the showers
:You gas them real good
:Cause you're full of white power
:
:Reach the final hours
:We take them to the showers
:We gas 'em real good
:Cause you're full of white power"
:
:All of this, of course, sung off key by Mr. Burdi and his
:RaHoWa companions, with instruments so far out of tune it's
:painful to hear, and the entire band off beat.
:
:_This_ is the unadulterated crap you want to move into
:mainstream UseNet, Mr. Kleim?
:
:_This_ is what your "National Alliance" stands for?
:
:For information about Mr. Kleim, Mr. Burdi (associated with such
:groups as the Ku Klux Klan, Heritage Front, Tom Metzger's
:White Aryan Resistance, and the now-defunct "Church of the Creator"),
:point your web browsers to the following URL's:
:
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/national-alliance/
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/american/adl/church-of-the-creator/cotc-1993
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/league-for-human-rights/heritage-front/
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/canadian/sirc/
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/b/burdi.george/
:ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/people/k/kleim.milton/
:
:...then mobilize your friends and fellow net.denizens, and give Mr.
:Kleim a vote so lopsided he'll need decades to forget it.
:
:--
: The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
: Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
:Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
: Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Couch Potato <pot...@mo.net> Creature of Wonderful Ideals
---------------------------------------------------------------------
)|(
(o o)
*=======================ooO-(_)-Ooo==========================*
Helping us all to find a kindler, gentler, view.
Tintin Herge
I think it was about time that this musical genre was given its own newsgroup.
I see that there are more and more people interested in this kind of music
and discussions on its subject matter are very stimulating.
Also, from my point of view, there must be something appealing about this
music since more young men and women seem to be attending concerts. After
all, this is the musical expression of a much needed awareness in our
race's right to existence and preservation.
Excellent idea!
Aron Shiewitz
: The last thing we need on mainstream (Big 8) Usenet is a place for racists
: to hang out. It's bad enough having alt.politics.white-power. If more
: racist newsgroups must be created, let them be in alt.*. Just vote NO.
: --
: ##### |\^/| Colin R. Leech = ag...@freenet.carleton.ca
: ##### _|\| |/|_ If you can't return a favour, pass it on.
: ##### > < Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
: ##### >_./|\._< Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
I agree with you 110%... the ignorant persons wishing to create another
newsgroup for the speech of idiocy must be stopped!!!!!!!!!....
Aron Shiewitz
Alan Milnes
>It is clear that in proposing the creation of this newsgroup, Kleim has
>the intention of creating a facade. This is not the place where music
>will be discussed, but the message.
You are trying to make this a personal thing between you and Milton
Kleim - this is contrary to the spirit of RFD! These are the tactics
of a loser!
WP music needs its own rec.* group now!
John Baglow
> and I was literally attacked in the most debased ways. People with _your_
> viewpoint, Mr. Brown, lack the tolerance you accuse us of having.
Wrong, Miltie, we would never accuse you of having tolerance...
> and defeat us "Nazis," they just won't close up shop, and go away.
Why the inverted commas? Are you now renouncing your nazism?
> Mr. Brown and Mcvay and everyone else are opposing rmwp not because
> "there's no need" for it, but rather because they want to impose _their_
> beliefs, _their_ will, upon others.
>
> There's a word for that: fascism.
Well, then, why aren't you *supporting* us?
--
******************************************************************************
John Baglow "Oh, baby, is this really the end--
To be stuck outside of Moncton
With the Whitehorse blues again?"
Alan Milnes
There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power music,
a phenomenon which is growing worldwide.
Persons who have an interest in this wonderful type of music have no
appropriate venue on USENET in which to discuss this, what is
undeniabley a most controversial topic.
So far as other rec.music groups go their topics are too dissimilar,
and many of their participants are in no way receptive of posts about
this heated topic.
Some discussion of White Power music occurs on alt.skinheads and
alt.politics.white-power, but is inappropriate there due to the
former's mostly lifestyle-oriented matters, and the latter's largely
political nature.
Rec.music.white-power will prevent the "intrusion" of fans into other,
more vaguely-defined, newsgroups, where they will not be welcomed.
Discussions would necessarily be free and open, due to the topic's
controversial nature. This group should be unmoderated because a
moderator could exercise undue control over one viewpoint's postings.
DINI,COSMIN-NICU,MR
Who says we can't post on both, Eddie?
Kosmo, the desert fox
>.
cdavis6
the western way of thinking is based on the fact that people can think
for themselves...
think whatever the hell you want, think that white people are superior,
think that black people are superior, but don't cut back on the free
speech.
<http://users.aol.com/impala350/racism.html>
Seds Dead Baby Seds Dead
: My Honor Is Called Loyalty
Your Honor Is Called Blind Obedience To A Dead Austrian
--
I'm a poseur & I don't care, I like to make people stare. -X Ray Spex
Your axe belongs to another generation, they don't know we own you -The Who
When you begin to really play things won't be the same -Crass
I ain't gonna fall for that particular party line -Cocksparrer
--- Neal Antipatico [an...@phantom.com] [Sed on IRC] Punk/Oi!/Ska/Hardcore ---
Michael Paterson
>Mjollnir88 (mjoll...@aol.com) wrote:
>: My Honor Is Called Loyalty
You don't have honor - you're just another dumb American of East
European descent waiting for your executioner to put you out of your
misery.
Mi\cheil Rob Mac Pha\druig
druidh/duine-uasail
cap...@cuug.ab.ca
Staff <rrec...@resistance.com> wrote:
>As a record company (Resistance Records) specializing in this
>music, we support the creation of such a discussion group.
>
Ugh! As if the world needs more white supremist crap!
After establishing a WWW site last spring
Useless web site deleted.
we have received
Bragging deleted.
If you want to boast about your nazi-loving, money grubbing company, get
a proper newsreader. Your crummy post showed up *3* times in this
newsgroup! Better still, just shut up! If you actually don't support
white-power, please clarify incase I misunderstood. But I can't imagine
how you wouldn't support racism when you put out their so-called music.
I'm sick of all this racist crap and am shocked at how many people are
still buying into it! Who cares about color or ethnicity? This is the
90's! Get a clue! People are people and it doesn't matter whose white or
black, or who's liberal or concervative. It does matter if people support
abuse/cruelty being inflicted on others for any reason, and that's what
white supremacy is all about, abusing blacks, Jews, women and a lot of
others they feel to be infurior.
Just cut the racist crap now!
There are just too many white supremists AKA nazis AKA people who believe
in committing atrocious abuse, the net is just crawling with them! Go
away you white-power nut cases! You are sickening! this is can.general!
Keep off the real newsgroups and stick to your own stupid terrorist
sympathizing white-power groups!
--
"Look down, and show some mercy if you can! Look down, look down upon
your fellow man!" -- ("Les Miserables" Musical)
Jeffrey G. Brown
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
> Jeffrey G. Brown (jeff_...@pol.com) writes:
>
> [alleged e-mail deleted]
>
> > I know you sent this, Kleim.
>
> Some people do have hallucinations, Mr. Brown.
Yes, they do, but that is irrelevant to our discussion.
I note that you are careful not to deny having sent this email.
> > You know you sent this, Kleim.
>
> Hmmm.... You can read minds, too?
You sent the email. It is therefore logical to assume that you would _kow_
that you sent the email -- unless you now wish to claim that you suffer
from a multiple personality disorder, and one of your other personas sent
this without your knowledge.
I note, again, that you are careful not to deny having sent this email.
> > Can I provide any independent truth you said this? No. Nor do I care. We
> > both know what you are. If you choose to deny it in public, fine. That
> > doesn't change what you are: a liar and coward.
>
> Nor do I really care either. The only reason I respond to this post is
> because I want to draw attention to it.
Thank you. I note, still again, that you are careful not to deny having
sent this email.
> [...diatribe deleted; irrelevant to the question of Kleim's willingness
> to lie when it suits his purpose...]
> IF they get their way,
> and defeat us "Nazis," they just won't close up shop, and go away.
>
> They'll find _another_ target...
Hmmm.... You can predict the future, too?
> Mr. Brown and Mcvay and everyone else are opposing rmwp not because
> "there's no need" for it, but rather because they want to impose _their_
> beliefs, _their_ will, upon others.
Hmmm.... You can read minds, too?
I note, yet again, that you are careful not to deny having sent the email
in question.
I note also, that you have lied -- again. I have not expressed any
opposition to the establishment of rec.music.white.power. I have expressed
no opinion on the establishment of said newsgroup at all. I challenge you
to _prove_ I expressed any opposition to rmwp. I contest this assertion as
being more hot air from you, Kleim.
Bruce Baugh
al...@rahowa.demon.co.uk (Alan Milnes) wrote:
:There is no appropriate newsgroup for discussion of White Power music,
:a phenomenon which is growing worldwide.
In news.groups we are, or should be, concerned with what happens on the net.
The rest of the world can attend to itself.
Is there traffic? How much? Is there any substantial body of people looking to
discuss the topic? Keep in mind that a minimum of a hundred "yes" votes are
required to create a newsgroup in the Big 8 - more where, as in this case,
there's bound to be opposition. Is there any sign of that many users?
Has a mailing list been tried? How much traffic does any such list get?
This sort of info matters a lot more to newsgroup creation than simply being
popular in the world at large.
bru...@teleport.com - <*> - http://www.teleport.com/~bruceab/index.html
List Manager, Christlib, where Christian & libertarian concerns hang out
Science fiction readers: Preview S.M. Stirling's DRAKON and WORD OF NIGHT
(the new Marid Audran novel by George Alec Effin ger) at my home page.
New PGP key on Web key servers; old keys are toast.
Michel Fingerhut
>Rec.music.white-power will prevent the "intrusion" of fans into other,
>more vaguely-defined, newsgroups, where they will not be welcomed.
It won't - it's part of the "strategy" of invasion of Usenet - through
group creation on the one hand and "intrusion" of existing groups on
the other hand - by the person who proposed its creation.