FAQ Discussion Number 1--Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?
David Forbes
ASoIaF FAQ I wrote (available at
http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/index.html). I am posting
the various articles on this newsgroup, and hoping that you guys will
critque them. In addition to pointing out typos and ambiguous phrases,
I would like you guys to mention any biases that might have come out
in the articles, and any alternate theories that I might have ignored.
This first discussion will be on the biggest question of all: Who are
Jon's parents? Thanks in advance for reading this and commenting on
it. Here it is.
Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?
The debate about the parentage of the bastard Jon Snow has been one of
the biggest concerning the series. In SSM, #159, George R.R. Martin
admitted that Jon's parents will eventually be revealed in later
volumes of the series. Thus, the reader can assume that the secret of
his parentage will play some important point in the plot, and that
there has been some sort of foreshadowing leading up to this.
Currently, there are three pairs of parents that seem likely. One pair
we know of because of rumors that circulate throughout the Seven
Kingdoms. One pair we know of from the mouths of Eddard Stark and
Edric Dayne. And one pair we know of simply through the power of
observation and deduction. These three possibilities will tackled in
the order listed above.
I. EDDARD STARK AND ASHARA DAYNE
Ashara Dayne, the lady of Starfall, was apparently a love interest of
Eddard before Robert's Rebellion. After the war's end, we know that
Ashara committed suicide by throwing herself out of a tower into the
sea. (GoT, pg. 487). Anything else in between is pure speculation.
From the moment Eddard brought Jon home from the south, rumors have
circulated that Ashara was Jon's true mother. Catelyn heard the story
from the servants at Winterfell (GoT, pg. 65), and Eddard has an
interesting answer when she asks him about it:
"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and
that is all you need to know.And now I will learn where you heard that
name, my lady."She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that
day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never
heard in Winterfell again.
Note that Eddard does not deny the rumors, and he wants to put an end
to them. As Tyrion Lannister says, "When you tear out a man's tongue,
you're not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world what you
fear he might say." (CoK, pg. 229)
Yet the rumors leaked out and got around. Cersei heard them (GoT, pg.
487). So did Edric Dayne (SoS, pg. 495) and Harwin (SoS, pg. 496). But
is there any truth to these rumors?
Certainly, Eddard and Ashara seemed to at least have a crush on each
other. Edric Dayne tells Arya that Eddard and Ashara fell in love at
Harrenhal. (SoS, pg. 495). This certainly rings true. We know from
Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree that Eddard and
Ashara danced together at the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the
false spring.
"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance...with the
quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf on
his brother too shy to leave his bench." (SoS, pg. 281)
The quiet wolf was Eddard, and we know that Ashara has violet eyes
from (GoT, pg. 65).
However, the tourney at Harrenhal occurred one or two years before
Robert's Rebellion--if Jon were conceived during this period, he
should be much older than he is. Therefore, we have to assume that Jon
was conceived sometime during the war. But how? At this point, Eddard
is already wed to Catelyn, and we have so many references to his
famous honor that it seems unlikely he would father a bastard with an
old love interest. We do know that Eddard traveled to Starfall after
Lyanna's death to return Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn to its home. But
Eddard would have had to stay at Starfall for NINE MONTHS while Jon
was conceived and born in order for Eddard to bring him home. We have
no record of such a lengthy stay in Dorne, but this does not mean it
could not have happened.
Whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother, she killed herself after the
war was done. Why? There could be several reasons.
1) Grief at her brother Arthur Dayne's death at Eddard's hands.
2) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off someone else. (Perhaps Wylla?
See below)
3) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off her, but still wants to return
to Catelyn, his true wife
4) A combination of 1) and 2)
5) A combination of 1) and 3)
In conclusion, we know that Eddard and Ashara were a love interest,
but the rumors concerning that fact that she is Jon's mother may or
may not have any merit. Her suicide was most likely a combination of
several factors. While some evidence points toward the fact that
Ashara is Jon's mother, we have more tempting prospects with more
evidence, as discussed below.
II. EDDARD STARK AND WYLLA
Wylla is a wet nurse in service to House Dayne. She is a particularly
strong suspect for Jon's mother, because Eddard himself told Robert
that Wylla mothered Jon. She is first mentioned at Game of Thrones,
pg. 110:
"You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your
bastard's mother?"
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would
sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if
she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour.
You never told me what she looked like..."
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for
the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored
Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."
Interesting. Eddard only has one reason as to why he might lie to
Robert about Jon's mother, and that is discussed in point number III
(see below). But the fact is, he claims Wylla is Jon's mother, and
this can later be backed up. On Storm of Swords, pg. 494, Arya has a
conversation with Edric Dayne, who was born and raised at Starfall.
"How do you know about Jon?"
"He is my milk brother."
"Brother?" Arya did not understand. But you're from Dorne. How could
you and Jon be blood?"
"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was
little, so Wylla had to nurse me."
Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"
"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and
years. Since before I was born."
"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary
look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making a mock of me? "If you lie,
I'll punch your face."
"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the
honor of my House."
"You have a House?" That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had
a house. "Who are you?"
"My lady?" Ned looked embaressed. "I'm Edric Dayne, the...the Lord of
Starfall."
So...we have it from two sources that Wylla is Jon's mother. It almost
all fits together, except for a few facts. As with Ashara (see above),
Eddard would have had to spend an awfully long time at Starfall with
Wylla in order for Jon to be conceived and born before he was taken
back north. Still, that's not impossible that Eddard had a prolonged
vacation in Dorne.
So why is it not commonly accepted that Wylla is Jon's mother? For
one, there are far more clues that point to Number III (see below)
being correct. Yet whoever Jon's mother is, it seems that Wylla at
least knew Eddard and was part of the plot, because she and Eddard,
hundreds of miles apart, both maintain the same story.
It's possible that the whole Wylla thing is just a red herring that
was thrown out to confuse us. But whoever she is, there's no doubt
that she holds an important piece of information. With the exception
of Howland Reed, Wylla may be the only living person who knows the
truth about Jon's parentage, whether or not she is truly Jon's mother.
III. RHAEGAR TARGARYEN AND LYANNA STARK
At first glance, this suggestion seems ludicrous. Rhaegar and Lyanna?
There's no direct evidence or personal claims to support this, as
opposed to both Ashara Dayne and Wylla. Yet there are subtle, benign
clues. Lots of them, in fact. And the more one looks at them, the more
one is convinced that this could be the answer. The theory is a
complicated one. First, the entire possible story will be given, in
order for the reader to gain full understanding of the theory, and
then I'll provide various pieces of evidence for each portion of this
hypothosis, complete with quotes and page numbers (and lots of 粗m!).
Finally, I'll ponder on why this could have happened.
1) The Story
Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off
her, Rhaenys and Aegon. Yet the marriage was political, and at the
Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his
true love--Lyanna Stark. Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off
together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of
Dorne.
There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to
fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of
Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child. Somehow, Eddard and his
battle companions discovered Lyanna's location. They assumed that
Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free
will.
Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with
the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland
Reed are left alive. Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has
given birth to the baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she
is dying. She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child's true
parentage to anyone, lest Robert's hatred of Targaryens lead him to
kill the child. Then she dies.
Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to
Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur
Dayne until he was killed in the fighting. There, perhaps Eddard and
Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon's mother, to protect Jon. Also,
Ashara kills herself (for the possible reasons, see above).
Eddard then rides north with Jon, claiming the son is his and Wylla's
to protect Jon from Robert's Targaryen hatred.
2) The Evidence
a) Rhaegar's Personality--True Love With Lyanna?
At the beginning of the series, the reader comes off with a general
disliking of Rhaegar Targaryen. However, most opinions about Rhaegar
comes from Robert. While Robert makes Rhaegar out to be an evil man
and a rapist, this could be because Rhaegar stole away Lyanna,
Robert's true love. Clearly, no other character has this dislike for
Rhaegar, and most other characters seems to repsect and adore him.
Just a brief selection:
He {Ned} wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels. Somehow he
thought not. --GoT, pg. 381.
The knight {Jorah} gave her a curious look. "You are your brother's
sister, in truth."
"Viserys?" She {Dany} did not understand.
"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."--GoT, pg.668
{Dany said,} "There is some good to be said of my father, surely?"
"There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your
grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, you
mother...and Rhaegar. Him most of all." --SoS, pg. 815
So it appears that Eddard, Jorah and Barristan all disagree with
Robert and think that Rhaegar was a fine, upstanding citizen...hardly
the sort of man who would abduct a young girl against her will.
Perhaps even Robert realizes this:
Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar...Rhaegar won, damn him. I
killed him, Ned, I drove that spike right through his black armor into
his black heart and he died at my feet...Yet somehow he still won. He
has Lyanna now, and I have her."--GoT, pg. 430
The quote might possibly be interpreted as Robert admitting that
Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. For this seems like a likely
possibility--Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, and went off with him.
We know she had no great love for Robert:
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at
Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her
hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child
on some young girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he
could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he
assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no
matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all
his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it
cannot change a man's nature."--GoT, pg. 379
So clearly Lyanna did not truly love Robert, and Rhaegar was not the
evil man who Robert made him out to be. So it seems likely that the
pair fell in love, and we have some proof to support this. For
example, at the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring,
Rhaegar won the jousting contest. But instead of crowning his own wife
Elia the queen of love and beauty, he crowned Lyanna (SoS, pg. 486).
Ned reflects on this while hallucinating:
Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince
Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish
princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's
lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath
the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden...
--GoT, pg. 631
This is obviously a significant moment, for Eddard to remember it
while locked in a cell. And we have another reference to Lyanna
falling for Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, from Meera's story about
the Knight of the Laughing Tree:
"The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle,
but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over
his head."
--SoS, pg. 281
The dragon prince is Rhaegar; the wolf maid is Lyanna. It certainly
seems implied that she is falling in love with him. And another hint
from Meera:
"And the mystery knight should defeat all challengers and name the
wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."
"She was," said Meera. "But that's a sadder story."
--SoS, pg. 283
And then we have several other references which are ambiguous, almost
deliberately so:
Yet sometimes Dany would picture it the way it had been...Her brother
Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and
dying for the woman he loved...
---GoT, pg. 30
And when Dany sees visions in the House of the Undying:
Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and
he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a
woman's name...
---CoK, pg. 706
In both these quotes, GRRM avoids using the word 薦lia' and instead
uses 奏he woman' or 奏he woman he loved' suggesting that it could be
someone besides Elia...Lyanna, perhaps?
b) The Kingsguard, the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's Death.
On page 424 of Game of Thrones, Eddard is dreaming while under the
influence of the milk of the poppy for his injured leg. During this
time, he has a dream about his fight with the Kingsguard at the Tower
of Joy. GRRM has stated that this dream is not completely literal (Ned
was dreaming, after all) but some basic facts can be gleaned from it.
One is that three men of the Kingsguard, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold
Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent, were present at the Tower of Joy.
This is curious since, as far as the reader knows, there is no royal
blood present at the Tower of Joy--just Lyanna. Then why are they
there, instead of with Viserys or Daenerys? (Rhaegar and Aerys are
dead by this time.)
The obvious reason is, of course, that Lyanna is carrying Rhaegar's
baby, and the Kingsguard are there to protect that portion of the
royal blood. But would Rhaegar trust these men with such a secret?
Probably. Barristan told Dany that Rhaegar's oldest and truest friend
was Arthur Dayne (SoS, pg. 90), so he was probably just the man to
trust with such a secret.
The Kingsguard evidentally had an effect on Eddard. On GoT, pg. 502,
just the sight of three men in white cloaks sends a chill through him.
Then there comes the curious matter of Lyanna's death. From Eddard's
thoughts on GoT, pg. 43, we learn that she died of a fever, in a room
that smelled of 礎lood and roses.' Since the fighting took place
outside the tower,. we can theorize that the blood came from Lyanna's
childbirth. We know the blood came from Lyanna, because on GoT, pg.
424, Eddard remembers 銑yanna in her bed of blood.' Her bed of
blood--the blood came from her, and blood is not usually the effect of
a fever. And GRRM has been known to liken this term to birthing--on
GoT, pg. 674, Mirri Maz Duur says she knows the secrets of the 礎loody
bed,' meaning birthing.
c) "Promise Me, Ned"
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to
come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could still hear her
at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood
and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her
voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear
had gone out of his sister's eyes.
---GoT, pg. 43
From the quote above, Eddard implies that his promise to Lyanna was to
bury her at Winterfell. However, he recalls the quote throughout the
book at the strangest times and places, suggesting that the promise
meant something more. From above, the simple phrase 奏he fear had gone
out of his sister's eyes' suggests that the promise is something
deeper--why should she be so scared about where she is buried? It has
been suggested that what Eddard was really promising was to keep Jon's
identity a secret, and this can be supported by the manner in which he
recalls Lyanna's words.
"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the
king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
--GoT, pg. 116
This quote could be explained away by the fact that Eddard referred to
Lyanna. But Robert killing Rhaegar doesn't have much to do with
anything if Ned promised to bury Lyanna at Winterfell. The quote fits
better if Ned's promise was concerning Jon, because it would fit with
Robert's hatred of Targaryens.
He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the
way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's
audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as
Lyanna had pleaded once.
---GoT, pg. 199
Now this is interesting. Why in the world would Eddard compare Sansa
pleading for Lady's life to Lyanna pleading to be buried in
Winterfell--especially in the context of Robert's hatred of
Targaryens? This references makes absolutely no sense unless one
accepts that Lyanna was pleading to keep Jon's identity secret from
Robert.
"I will," Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear
undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his
vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying,
and the price he'd paid to keep them.
--GoT, pg. 380
Again, this doesn't make much sense in the context of Ned promising
Lyanna to bury her at Winterfell. What price would he had to have paid
to do this? If the promise concerned Jon, on the other hand, the quote
makes sense. Ned has certainly paid a price by claiming Jon is his own
son, especially with Catelyn.
The next quote comes from Eddard's dream:
"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of
pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
--GoT, pg. 501
Eddard seems to have a lot of violent and troubled dreams concerning
his promise to Lyanna. Why? It seems unnatural for him to place that
much importance on simply burying her at Winterfell.
"Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."
{said Robert.}
"I promise." "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's voice echoed.
--GoT, pg. 505
This quote can simply be attributed to Eddard likening his promises to
Robert on his deathbed to his promises to Lyanna on hers.
So with so many references to these promises, if seems like they were
very important in Eddard's mind; certainly more important than
ensuring Lyanna was buried at Winterfell. They could very well be
about Jon; if not, then of something of equal importance.
d) Blue Winter Roses
Along with 善romise me, Ned,' Eddard also remembers blue roses at the
strangest times. This can also be attribuited to Lyanna. She loved the
smell of blue winter roses. (GoT, pg. 631) And the crown for the queen
of love and beauty that Rhaegar tossed her was made of the flower.
(GoT, pg. 631). Of course, Ned's references to blue roses could just
be due to his grief over how Lyanna died, but they could mean
something more...
Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses.
Promise me, Ned...Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how
tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life,
the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black..."I bring her
flowers when I can,"{Ned} said. "Lyanna was...fond of flowers."
--GoT, pg. 43
The room in which Lyanna died smelled of roses, and she held some in
her hand. Interesting. If Rhaegar knew that they were her favorite
flower, he could have been trying to make her happy.
As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear
Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew
across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
--GoT, pg. 425
Her {Cersei's} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness
that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we
shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me,
in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.
--GoT, pg. 480
"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of
pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
--GoT, pg. 501
The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white
gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.
--CoK, pg. 809
The real clincher comes with a vision Dany has in the House of the
Undying.
A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air
with sweetness.
--CoK, pg. 707
This quote strongly implies that Lyanna's blue roses have something to
do with the Wall (the 層all of ice') This makes perfect sense because
Jon, the product of Lyanna and her blue roses, is on the Wall.
One more final clue comes on CoK, pg. 746. Ygritte tells Jon a story
about Bael the Bard. Bael picked a blue winter rose from Winterfell's
greenhouse unasked; a year later, he returned the son he fathered off
Lord Stark's daughter in payment for that rose. Since Rhaegar is known
to be a great fan of music and songs, it is likely that he heard this
story, and was fulfilling his romantic outlook on life by imitating
Bael in the blue roses.
e) Lies, Broken Promises and Troubled Dreams
Since Eddard is described as an honorable man, one would think that he
would feel guilty over the fact that he is lying to the world about
Jon's parentage. Well, he certainly feels guilty over something.
Throughout the book, there are numerous references to the fact that he
feels guilty for telling lies. These lies most likely have to do with
Jon or something as equally serious.
Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for
fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.
--GoT, pg. 115
Since Jon is fourteen years old at this time, this strongly implies
that Eddard's fourteen years of lies are about Jon. The fact that they
still haunt him at night fits in with Eddard's dreams about blue roses
and the Tower of Joy.
"She whined and looked at me and a felt so 壮hamed, but it was right,
wasn't it? The queen would have killed her."
"It was right," her father said. "And even the lie was...not without
honor."
--GoT, pg. 222
Eddard could easily be comparing Arya's honorable lies to his own.
Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to
share, even with those you love and trust. {Ned thought}
--GoT, pg. 357
This seems to imply that Ned has secrets of his own.
The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's
head, warm and relentless as old guilts.
--GoT, pg. 379
The deceit made him {Ned} feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he
thought. May the gods forgive me.
--GoT, pg. 504
All these above quotes seen to suggest that Eddard has been lying
about something for fourteen years. If not Jon, then what? There are
probably other options, but Jon seems the most likely at this point.
f) Thoughts Concerning Jon
Most of the above quotes had to do with pointing evidence at Lyanna or
Rhaegar. However, a sizeable number of quotes do suggest that Jon is
mroe than just a normal bastard boy. For one, Eddard never seems to
refer to Jon as his son, which is interesting.
"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and
that is all you need to know."
--GoT, pg. 65
Note that Eddard calls Jon 僧y blood,' not 僧y son.' This could be a
hint that Eddard is still trying to tell as much truth as possible,
because Jon is still his nephew if he is Lyanna's son. And then, on
GoT, pg. 486:
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not
know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would
I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life,
against the children of her body. He did not know. He prayed he never
would.
Eddard lists off all his children in his mind, but conviently does not
include Jon on the list. Interesting.
Eddard then has some more thoughts about Jon while locked in a cell
underneath the Red Keep, waiting to die.
The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep
for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with
him...
--GoT, pg. 635
Why, out of all his children, does Eddard want to talk with Jon before
he dies? Could he finally want to reveal to him the secret of his
parentage? Of course, Ned could be wanting to do this even if Jon's
mother was someone else, so this quote does not just apply to the
Lyanna-Rhaegar scenario. Two pages earlier, Eddard asks Varys if he
would deliver a letter. Perhaps Eddard wanted to put the secret of
Jon's mother in that letter for Varys to deliver.
Bran has an interesting dream which may add to the evidence.
"I dreamed about the crow last night. The one with three eyes. He flew
into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went
down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."
"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.
"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply
disturbing, more so that any of the other crow dreams.
--GoT, pg. 730
In the series thus far, most characters' dreams have hinted at being
prophetic or somewhat magical. The fact that Eddard was trying to tell
Bran that there was something about Jon in the crypts may suggest that
a secret about Jon is down there--near Lyanna's statue, maybe?
Jon has a similar dream:
"I'm walking down this long empty hall...opening doors, shouting
names...the castle is always empty...the stables are full of bones.
That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors,
climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for
anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts.
It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I
know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what
might be waiting for me...I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this
isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start
down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way.
It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream...that's when I
always wake."
--GoT, pg. 267
This also seems to hint that Jon also has some sort of destiny in the
crypts--again, perhaps his heritage? One more thing seems to hint at
Jon's parents:
"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on
Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.
"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.
"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."
"King," the bird said again.
"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."
"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my
liking." Mormont striked the raven under the beak with his finger, but
all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.
--CoK, pg. 105
This could be the random spoutings of a raven. Or it could be a subtle
clue that Jon, as the only surviving son of Rhaegar, would be the king
of Westeros if the Targaryens still reigned.
As one last tidbit of evidence, it can be said that if Jon is the son
of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it fits with the series name 羨 Song of Ice and
Fire.' Jon seems to be shaping as the main character, and it woudl fit
the series title if his parents were Rhaegar (fire) and Lyanna (ice).
3) But Why?
The way most characters describe it, Rhaegar seems to be a completely
honest and honorable man. So why would he betray his wife and run off
with Lyanna to father a legitmate child?
This is a question that cannot fully be answered, except for one
vision that Dany has in the House of the Undying on CoK, pg. 527. In
this scene, Dany sees Rhaegar and Elia standing over their newborn son
Aegon. Rhaegar says that Aegon is the 叢rince that was promised,' and
his is the 壮ong of ice and fire.' Then, he enigmatically adds, 禅here
must be one more...the dragon has three heads.' The first two heads
are evidently Rhaenys and Aegon. It's possible that in whatever
prophecy Rhaegar read, he thought that he needed to father a child off
a Stark to produce the third head and the 壮ong of ice and fire.'
Without further information we cannot speculate more, though. For a
more indepth discussion of the topic, see the 糎ho is Azor Ahai
reborn? Is he the same person as the Prince Who Was Promised?' topic.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, we have several tempting possibilities for Jon's
parents. It seems that the Ashara-Eddard rumor was just that, a rumor.
The Eddard-Wylla scenario seems a likely possibility until one looks
at the massive amount of evidence for the Rhaegar-Lyanna theory. If
Jon's mother is Lyanna, it seems likely that Wylla was in on the
secret. If Jon's mother was Wylla, then Eddard evidentally had some
other secret lie in his past that he was hiding. As GRRM has promised
that Jon's parents will be revealed in a later volume, we will just
have to patiently wait for the answer.
Dom Wynn
"David Forbes" <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:32925418.03090...@posting.google.com...
>
> 1) The Story
>
> Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off
> her, Rhaenys and Aegon. Yet the marriage was political, and at the
> Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his
> true love--Lyanna Stark. Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off
> together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of
> Dorne.
>
> There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to
> fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of
> Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child. Somehow, Eddard and his
> battle companions discovered Lyanna's location. They assumed that
> Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free
> will.
>
> Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with
> the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland
> Reed are left alive. Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has
> given birth to the baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she
> is dying. She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child's true
> parentage to anyone, lest Robert's hatred of Targaryens lead him to
> kill the child. Then she dies.
>
> vision that Dany has in the House of the Undying on CoK, pg. 527. In
> this scene, Dany sees Rhaegar and Elia standing over their newborn son
> his is the 'song of ice and fire.' Then, he enigmatically adds, 'There
> must be one more...the dragon has three heads.' The first two heads
> are evidently Rhaenys and Aegon. It's possible that in whatever
> prophecy Rhaegar read, he thought that he needed to father a child off
> Without further information we cannot speculate more, though. For a
> reborn? Is he the same person as the Prince Who Was Promised?' topic.
Hokay. I'm just wondering about this, and I don't have to books to hand
to drag out the evidence to shoot my own thoughts down in flames, so I'm
going to brain dump and let you do the shooting:
1) why is it always assumed that Lyanna gave birth *after* Rhaegar left
the tower? Surely the timeline was quite tight? Could not Rhaegar have
left immediately after birth?
2) If so, then could not Dany's vision be of Lyanna & Rhaegar pre post
natal complications? Women do occasionally die of post natal
complications not immediately afters...
3) In which case Aegon could possibly have died in Kings Landing, and in
fact Jon may be tPwwP?
Mmm.
Dunno. Too many ifs and ands.
D
Ian Wu
"Dom Wynn" <domini...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:Ljv5b.651$1%2.1...@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
Because Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, which is in the Dornish
mountains, and Ned did not go to search for her in the south until
after the Sack of King's Landing, which is after the battle at the
Trident where Rhaegar died.
> 2) If so, then could not Dany's vision be of Lyanna & Rhaegar pre post
> natal complications? Women do occasionally die of post natal
> complications not immediately afters...
No, GRRM has confirmed that the woman in Dany's vision with
Rhaegar was indeed Elia.
> 3) In which case Aegon could possibly have died in Kings Landing, and in
> fact Jon may be tPwwP?
Aegon did die in King's Landing, and Jon may well be tPwwP.
Ian
Trade Surplus
> Who Are Jon Snow's Parents?
Congrats again on a well written, very well referenced FAQ. I have
just a few comments on this entry.
> Eddard would have had to stay at Starfall for NINE MONTHS while Jon
> was conceived and born in order for Eddard to bring him home.
Wasn't Ashara Dayne part of Elia's retinue? Isn't it then possible
that she was in KL during the sack? If Eddard and Ashara did the deed
in KL then the timing fits better. It could well have taken nine
months for Eddard to pacify the South, kill Arthur Dayne then meet up
with Ashara again in Starfall.
For the record I'm a Rahegar and Lyanna supporter but I think that
objectivity requires a mention of this possible timeline.
Ditto for the later discussion on Wylla.
> Whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother, she killed herself after the
> war was done. Why? There could be several reasons.
> 1) Grief at her brother Arthur Dayne's death at Eddard's hands.
> 2) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off someone else. (Perhaps Wylla?
> See below)
> 3) Grief that Eddard fathered Jon off her, but still wants to return
> to Catelyn, his true wife
> 4) A combination of 1) and 2)
> 5) A combination of 1) and 3)
Another reason (probably in combination with 1) could simply be that
Ashara was distraught that the love of her life, Eddard, who she knew
also loved her, was now married to someone else, irrespective of
babies born. In other words, Ashara could still throw herself into the
sea in grief at Eddard's marriage even if Jon was Lyanna's son, not
Eddard's.
> secret. If Jon's mother was Wylla, then Eddard evidentally had some
Spellcheck. evidentally -> evidently ibid.
Trade.
Terje Bless
Joy, is just nitpicking abd bringing up data points that might be
worthwhile to include just for the purpose of not excluding anything
(even though we believe them to be incorrect).
IOW, I'm not arguing those interpretations, just mentioning them for
completeness. :-)
In article <32925418.03090...@posting.google.com>,
David Forbes <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>However, the tourney at Harrenhal occurred one or two years before
>Robert's Rebellion--if Jon were conceived during this period, he
>should be much older than he is.
Or perhaps he merely looks much younger/older than he is...
>Therefore, we have to assume that Jon was conceived sometime during
>the war. But how? At this point, Eddard is already wed to Catelyn, and
>we have so many references to his famous honor that it seems unlikely
>he would father a bastard with an old love interest.
There are a number of literary devices that would make us inclined to
accept this as plausible; mostly variants of Ned coming under great
emotional stress -- there's a war on, recall -- and circumstances
conspiring to put Ashara in the right place at the right time to
console him.
>Eddard would have had to stay at Starfall for NINE MONTHS while Jon
>was conceived and born in order for Eddard to bring him home.
Or stop by, leave, and return to pick him up on the way home. Or
various variations on that theme.
>Whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother, she killed herself after the
>war was done. Why? There could be several reasons.
Including ones we have no basis for speculating on; perhaps Ned threw
her off that ledge (balcony? wall?) in response to some dark secret --
her complicity in Lyanna's fate, say -- her brother revealed to him
with his dying breath.
>As with Ashara (see above), Eddard would have had to spend an awfully
>long time at Starfall with Wylla in order for Jon to be conceived and
>born before he was taken back north.
And the above nitpick for Ashara above also applies for Wylla.
>However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the
>Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her
>unborn child.
Is it ever spelled out that it was Rhaegar that ordered the three
Kingsguard there? Otherwise it would it would open for the possibility
that someone else dispatched them for some purpose other than
protecting Lyanna. The spurned wife wishing to stamp out the
illegitimate get perhaps? Or other random evil or insane personage
(including one or more of the Kingsguard present) doing it for whatever
reason.
>Somehow, Eddard and his battle companions discovered Lyanna's
>location. They assumed that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did
>not join him by her own free will.
Or knew that she was there voluntarily and came to fetch her because it
wasn't safe now that Rhaegar is dead (what with the war and all). Or
just to put her somewhere they can be sure she'll be safe. Or to drag
her back home and spank her for fraternizing...
>Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with
>the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland
>Reed are left alive.
See, this still irks me. If we allow the theory that Lyanna is
Rhaegar's True Love, there of her own free will, and the Kingsguard are
there to protect her and the child; then why the hell must 8 (in this
scenario, good) men die? The "protect the child from Robert's insane
bloodlust" argument might have been convincing if the one come to fetch
her had been anyone but Ned. But given it's her _brother_ that shows
up, you'd have expected the Kingsguard (if Lyanna is too far gone by
this point to come out herself) to at least make a token attempt at
settling things without bloodshed.
I'm having real trouble buying this whole scene.
>Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has given birth to the
>baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she is dying.
>
[...]
>
>2) The Evidence
No mention is made of the obvious interpretation; namely that Rhaegar
has kidnapped her, raped her, and either done so brutally enough that
she dies as a result, or perpetrated further damage to her in some
other way (i.e. out and out stab her).
In any case; thanks for the wonderfull summary and extensive
references! This was great for explaining the whole thing to me (and a
couple of weeks ago I didn't even have an inkling of the whole
Rhaegar/Lyanna love angle!). Kudos, and thanks for sharing this!
--
T.E.R.J.E. - Technician Engineered for Repair and Justified Exploration
B.L.E.S.S. - Biomechanical Lifeform Engineered for Scientific Sabotage
Jack
<quick snip>
> In article <32925418.03090...@posting.google.com>,
> David Forbes <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>However, the tourney at Harrenhal occurred one or two years before
>>Robert's Rebellion--if Jon were conceived during this period, he
>>should be much older than he is.
>
> Or perhaps he merely looks much younger/older than he is...
Problem with that is he was brought back to Winterfell when he was pretty
young...toddler young. And there's a pretty significant difference between
how a 2 year old child looks and how a newborn looks...and similarly up
until you get into significantly older than Jon was at the time.
>>However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the
>>Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her
>>unborn child.
>
> Is it ever spelled out that it was Rhaegar that ordered the three
> Kingsguard there? Otherwise it would it would open for the possibility
> that someone else dispatched them for some purpose other than
> protecting Lyanna. The spurned wife wishing to stamp out the
> illegitimate get perhaps? Or other random evil or insane personage
> (including one or more of the Kingsguard present) doing it for whatever
> reason.
Hmm...no...I don't think it was ever actually really said per say, but in
Ned's dreams they are always presented as the Ultimate Kingsguard. They
are paragons of what the Kingsguard should be...if not precisely what you'd
expect of Sansa-style storybook knights (given what the covered up of
Aerys' blatant insanity). I significantly doubt they'd be there for some
"evil or insane" reason...I'm sure they were just doing their duty as
Kingsguard and guarding SOMETHING they felt was appropriate...
>>Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with
>>the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland
>>Reed are left alive.
>
> See, this still irks me. If we allow the theory that Lyanna is
> Rhaegar's True Love, there of her own free will, and the Kingsguard are
> there to protect her and the child; then why the hell must 8 (in this
> scenario, good) men die? The "protect the child from Robert's insane
> bloodlust" argument might have been convincing if the one come to fetch
> her had been anyone but Ned. But given it's her _brother_ that shows
> up, you'd have expected the Kingsguard (if Lyanna is too far gone by
> this point to come out herself) to at least make a token attempt at
> settling things without bloodshed.
>
> I'm having real trouble buying this whole scene.
Until you mentioned it right there I hadn't really given the matter any
thought, but you're right...it makes no sense. I'm sure by this point Ned
is reasonably well-known for being who he is (I'm sure his reputation
didn't grow THAT much hunkered down in the North), so the Kingsguard must
have had some notion of a clue about what sort of person he was and had to
know that he was pretty damn unlikely to do any sort of harm to his sister
and/or her possible child. Instead their conversation revolves around how
the "lesser" members of the Kingsguard failed in some way (Jamie slaying
Aerys before he could fire King's Landing, Barristan failing to protect
Rhaegar AND switching sides thereafter, etc).
Then again...maybe it's just "bad writing" on GRRM's part...everyone can
have a little slip up. It could just be he NEEDED it to work that way and
since it wasn't actually "on camera" per say, he just chose to go with
minimal explanation...
>>2) The Evidence
>
> No mention is made of the obvious interpretation; namely that Rhaegar
> has kidnapped her, raped her, and either done so brutally enough that
> she dies as a result, or perpetrated further damage to her in some
> other way (i.e. out and out stab her).
True...but I think it's pretty unlikely that those were the case, but they
probably SHOULD be included for completeness...
> In any case; thanks for the wonderfull summary and extensive
> references! This was great for explaining the whole thing to me (and a
> couple of weeks ago I didn't even have an inkling of the whole
> Rhaegar/Lyanna love angle!). Kudos, and thanks for sharing this!
Indeed, the original post was quite impressive. VERY good job with
it...btw, please forgive my unmarked snipping throughout this post...it
was mostly just a lead-in paragraph here and there. 8(
--
Jack
Jack
<snip entire thing>
Dammit...sorry about the line lengths...switched to something new and I
was under the assumption that it inserted CR/LF's for me...obviously it
doesn't.
--
Jack
The Moonlit Knight
> have a little slip up. It could just be he NEEDED it to work that way and
> since it wasn't actually "on camera" per say, he just chose to go with
> minimal explanation...
Who said it was the Kingsguard choice? Dayne would've especially have known
Eddard, but if Rhaeger had ordered the Kingsguard to not let the child fall
into the "enemy's" hands then they would've been honour and duty bound to
carry out that order, regardless of the emotions of what they felt.
Terje Bless
The Moonlit Knight <Gar...@Omnipotent.me.uk> wrote:
>Who said it was the Kingsguard choice? Dayne would've especially have known
>Eddard, but if Rhaeger had ordered the Kingsguard to not let the child fall
>into the "enemy's" hands then they would've been honour and duty bound to
>carry out that order, regardless of the emotions of what they felt.
Hmmm. That's a motivation I can buy, but it still doesn't ring quite
true. The presupposition for the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna's safety is
that Rhaegar was a (moderately) nice guy and that he an Lyanna loved
eachother. In that situation you don't order the Kingsguard to keep her
"out of enemy hands" -- to the point where her _brother_ is counted
"enemy hands" -- you order them to keep her safe; and entering into a
fatalistic battle for honor (and very little else; they were
outnumbered 8 to 3) is not a good way to achieve that objective.
I can think of various "damned if you do, damned if you don't"
situations that would make their behaviour make sense, but none that
have been hinted at in the books (as represented by this FAQ entry and
other explorations on this group). In short, in this case I think GRRM
has failed to "suspend my disbelief" as regards that scene at the
"Tower of Joy" (unless some new information comes to light in later
books, of course).
Terje Bless
Jack <kth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Terje Bless wrote:
>>David Forbes <Je...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>[...] if Jon were conceived during this period, he should be much
>>>older than he is.
>>Or perhaps he merely looks much younger/older than he is...
>
>Problem with that is he was brought back to Winterfell when he was pretty
>young...toddler young. And there's a pretty significant difference between
>how a 2 year old child looks and how a newborn looks...and similarly up
>until you get into significantly older than Jon was at the time.
Oh, right. His age is fixed by the time he shows up at Winterfell; not
by how old he is considered by the time of the books. My mistake,
sorry.
Given that, I would guess that the leeway on his age is less than a
year in either direction?
Paul Bartel
link...@pobox.com says...
Martin" collection over at westeros.org.:
In a message dated 12/19/01 8:47:48 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Calib...@genie.nl writes:
I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's
about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description
is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three
kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in
ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower,
she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general
consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No
sense denying this ;)
However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard
would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be
safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask
you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?
GRRM: You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about
the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.
I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to,
was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our
dreams are not always literal.
Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?
GRRM: Certainly.
I added in the "GRRMs," as the italics disappeared in making this
post.
I guess we just have to wait for Howland Reed to show up.
--
Paul Bartel
Gentleman of the Perverse