WACO burning
P.VASILION
[... snip ...]
>|>>Has anyone in U.S. heard anything similar or are U.S. government
>|>>spin-doctors censoring such information?
>|>>
>|>>The B.B.C. news is also reporting that about 20 of those that died
>|>>were british citizens.
>
>The B.B.C. are also reporting that bodies of B-D members were found
>with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot
>attempting to leave the compound during the fire.
>
>There is a possibility that these are the bodies of people killed during
>the initial shootout.
>
>Phill Hallam-Baker
Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying every
where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait for an
autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
responable.
Jim De Arras
I would doubt bullets would go flying. There is no particular force to make
the bullet leave the scene of a cartridge going off outside of a barrel. The
brass shell would burst too soon to give the bullet any real velocity. I
wouldn't want to be near it, but I do not think bullet wounds would result.
Shrapnel wounds would be more likely
At least this is my understanding.
> Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
> responable.
Yep, at least in large part.
Jim
--
j...@handheld.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always rethinking that. There's never been a day when I haven't rethought
that. But I can't do that by myself." Bill Clinton 6 April 93
"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed
in my country, I never would lay down my arms,-never--never--never!"
WILLIAM PITT, EARL OF CHATHAM 1708-1778 18 Nov. 1777
Tom Renner
>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying every
>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait for an
>autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
>Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
>responable.
A minor technical point: unless a cartridge is contained (for example in the
chamber of a gun) when it goes off, very little of interest happens. When
the powder burns, gases push the brass case (or parts of it) and the lead
bullet in opposite directions, with the same force. Recall that F=ma, and
that the mass of a lead bullet is many times that of bits of brass. The result
is that the casing flies off at relatively high initial velocity, but that the
bullet itself mostly just sits there. And because the ratio of
(cross-sectional area)/(weight) of the bits of brass (or the entire casing) is
so high, it rapidly decelerates in either air or flesh. Thus it is very hard
for burning ammo to give someone a lethal wound. It's very unlikely that
"bullets go flying everywhere". Other bits of metal, like pieces of
magazines or brass casings, sure. As you say, we ought to wait for autopsy
reports.
Tom
P.VASILION
Not necessarily. If the body had been denatured (cooked) or dehydrated due
to the heat, a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate.
In fire aftermaths, bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of
meat with little effort. Medical Examiners tend not to like cleaning up
such scenes.
As such, if the body had been suitably cooked, a bullet comming from a
magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and
thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the
time of death, or much later, unless you were trained to look for the
evidence. Texas Rangers are not pathologists.
>
>> Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
>> responsable.
>
>Yep, at least in large part.
>
P.Vasilion
Jim De Arras
deformed, so I suspect any such occurances would be easy to notice.
>
> >
> >> Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
> >> responsable.
> >
> >Yep, at least in large part.
> >
> >j...@handheld.com
>
> P.Vasilion
Christopher C. Morton
In a previous article, v111...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION) says:
>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying every
>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait for an
>autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
A more likely explanation is that they shot themselves. Of course some
people may think that it hurts more to be shot than to burn to death.
--
*************************************************************************
If you were smarter, you'd have these opinions....
*******************************************************************************
Phill Hallam-Baker
No Koresh is responsible.
If a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is responsible.
The police may bear responsiblity for failing to stop him but the primary
responsibility is with the murderer.
Perhaps you consider that Hitler was not responsible for the Holocaust
since the allies could have done more to stop him?
Phill Hallam-Baker
Dan Sorenson
>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes?
Generally the ship sinks (sorry, there's a picture of the
USS Iowa next to my desk).
> Bullets go flying every
>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>went up.
First, unless that round is chambered there is little threat of
penetration by the bullet, or the brass for that matter. Unless that
expanding gas is held in an enclosed space you get a nice "pop" and not
enough threat for even firefighters to worry about. Finally, it's
rather simple to tell if a person was shot prior to being burned to
a crisp. See, by the time the ammunition went up those people were
quite dead. Look for blood around the wound, particularly bruising.
However, it's my contention that it makes little difference
whether they died from exploding ammunition or fire; the Feds seem
to have shared responsibility for both.
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1...@exnet.iastate.edu vik...@iastate.edu >
< ISU only censors what I read, not what I say. Don't blame them. >
< USENET: Post to exotic, distant machines. Meet exciting, >
< unusual people. And flame them. >
David Garrod
......
>
> No Koresh is responsible.
>
> If a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is responsible.
> The police may bear responsiblity for failing to stop him but the primary
> responsibility is with the murderer.
>
When did Koresh go on a rampage?
What I saw was an unnecessary, unprovoked massive attack on Feb. 28th.
Probably even an illegal action by ATF, certainly way out of proportion
to anything reasonable.
And yet, according to a pole taken yesterday, 95% of the people poled
believe the government forces acted appropriately. They don`t believe
Reno or the President have any guilt in ordering/allowing the attack.
I suppose they also believed things like:
"I would present a 5-year plan to balance the budget."
"We don`t need to lead with a tax increase...."
"It starts with a middle-class tax cut..."
"I`ll have the bills ready the day after I am inaugurated and we`ll
have a 100 day period....It will be the most productive in modern history."
"I will ask congress for a line item veto.."
"I will lift the social security earnings test.."
I personally prefer to disbelieve the government until they prove themselves
right, rather than the other way around. That way I have a better than
50% chance of being right about my first guess!
Read the constitution sometime, it is supposed to protect the citizens
and their rights. I am sick of the abuse of government power.
As Tom Jefferson said:
"When all government,..., shall be drawn to Washington as the centre of
all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government
on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government
from which we separated." (1821)
C. D. Tavares
> No Koresh is responsible.
>
> If a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is responsible.
ram.page, n.: To move about wildly or violently. A course of frenzied,
violent action.
Who assaulted who here, Phill? Do you remember exactly which side came
out looking for trouble?
> The police may bear responsiblity for failing to stop him but the primary
> responsibility is with the murderer.
So if it turns out that the fire WAS caused by a tank knocking over a
Coleman lantern, you'll support punishing the "responsible" people, Phill?
Or will you find then find a different reason to hang it all on Koresh?
--
c...@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR c...@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Josh A Grossman
>to the heat, a projectile needs only a minimal kinetic force to penetrate.
>In fire aftermaths, bodies tend to fall apart or loose large chunks of
>meat with little effort. Medical Examiners tend not to like cleaning up
>such scenes.
>
>As such, if the body had been suitably cooked, a bullet comming from a
>magazine explosion would more than likely have enough force to enter and
>thus it would be difficult to determine whether a bullet entered at the
>time of death, or much later, unless you were trained to look for the
>evidence. Texas Rangers are not pathologists.
>
This is quite corect, but a bullet hitting a burned body with little energy
will show virtually no deformation, ie a hollow point probably would not
expand, an FMJ would be "pristene". Also the bullets will not be marked
with the lands ang grooves of a barrel, because they didn't come out of
one. A good pathologist should be able to notice this right away.
Let us hope that the ME's that handle these bodies are more competent
then the ones who did JFK's body.
JAG
Wayne J. Warf
<fire victims, apparently, are usually found face down>
suggesting they died prior to the fire. The ME says, in a word,
BULLSHIT, the victims WERE face down. The FBI says they sent a body
of a victim that was shot, supposedly by BD guards, the ME
says, in a word, BULLSHIT, the body showed NO evidence of gunshot
wounds. Can the ATF/FBI tell the difference between CYA and truth?
--
+ Wayne J. Warf -- WW...@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only +
|*Clinton*Gore*CIA*FBI*DEA*Assassinate*Bomb*WoD*BoR*ATF*IRS*Resist*NSA* |
|*Christian*God*Satan*Apocalypse*ZOG*Nazi*Socialist*Communist*Explosive*|
+*fundamentalist*revolution*NSC*Federal Reserve*Constitution*gold*FEMA* +
Sewer Snake
In article <viking.7...@vincent2.iastate.edu>, vik...@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
> v111...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION) writes:
>
> >Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes?
>
> Generally the ship sinks (sorry, there's a picture of the
> USS Iowa next to my desk).
>
> > Bullets go flying every
> >where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
> >went up.
I was an arson investigator in Calif. about 14 years ago. One of the common
mistakes when observing a burnt body is that sometimes it looks as if someone
has shot the victim(s) in the head, when in fact it is caused by extreme heat
that makes the cranial cavity ventilate, i.e. burst. I forget at what temperature
this occurs, but don't take field notes seriously whithout a real autopsy in this
case. They could very well have been shot, but then again this whole thing
stinks of a mongolian cluster fuck anyways, so beware.
>
> First, unless that round is chambered there is little threat of
> penetration by the bullet, or the brass for that matter. Unless that
> expanding gas is held in an enclosed space you get a nice "pop" and not
> enough threat for even firefighters to worry about. Finally, it's
> rather simple to tell if a person was shot prior to being burned to
> a crisp. See, by the time the ammunition went up those people were
> quite dead. Look for blood around the wound, particularly bruising.
>
> However, it's my contention that it makes little difference
> whether they died from exploding ammunition or fire; the Feds seem
> to have shared responsibility for both.
>
Well, our government has turned the war on drugs to a war on religoius expression.
Peter Nelson
>enough threat for even firefighters to worry about. Finally, it's
>rather simple to tell if a person was shot prior to being burned to
>a crisp. See, by the time the ammunition went up those people were
>quite dead. Look for blood around the wound, particularly bruising.
According to today's Boston Globe the bodies are so decomposed
by the fire that it's not even possible to identify which were
adults and which were children, which were men and which were
women. Under those circumstances I doubt you'll be able to
find blood or bruising.
BTW the article said only 40 bodies have been recovered. I assume
more will be found, but it didn't imply that.
---peter
steve hix
>>with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot
>>attempting to leave the compound during the fire.
About one hour ago I heard a real-time interview with one of the
Waco-area coroners who is involved in finding and indentifying
the remains of those killed at the farm. (KCBS, San Francisco,
around 12:30 p.m. on Thursday.)
He said outright that he could not substantiate earlier reports
that some of the burned dead had been shot at all.
Until the bodies have been thoroughly checked out, he would say
that to his knowledge none had been shot.
I can't recall the doctor's name, but it (and his accent) were
middle eastern or Indian.
More grist for the rumor mills, I suppose.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself. |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
Mike Tighe
>In a previous article, v111...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION) says:
>>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying
>>every where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the
>>magazines went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait
>>for an autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
>A more likely explanation is that they shot themselves. Of course some
>people may think that it hurts more to be shot than to burn to death.
Perhaps nobody was shot.
Just about everything the ATF/FBI has claimed has turned out to be a lie or
unsupported by evidence/fact. I wish the media would recognize this and
start asking some tough questions, so we could get some real answers.
The most recent example occurred Thursday afternoon, when the Medical
Examiner reported that of the 35 bodies recovered so far, none have bullet
wounds in them. He also stated that many of the bodies were face down.
This contradicts ATF/FBI claims that some were shot in the head, and were
found face up.
When asked about the ATF/FBI reports that some had been shot he replied,
"there is absolutely no evidence of that" ... "It appears they died from
smoke inhalation".
--
Mike Tighe, (214) 497-4206
ti...@convex.com
Steve Tyree
>About one hour ago I heard a real-time interview with one of the
>Waco-area coroners who is involved in finding and indentifying
>the remains of those killed at the farm. (KCBS, San Francisco,
>around 12:30 p.m. on Thursday.)
>He said outright that he could not substantiate earlier reports
>that some of the burned dead had been shot at all.
If they do have gun shot wounds, we should not jump to conclu-
sions like the FBI is doing. If you were trapped inside a burning
building and you had a loaded gun, would you commit suicide before
you burned to death ? It is possible that debri from the smashed
walls and the presence of FBI sharpshooters, forced them to stay
in the building too long.
Why is the FBI assuming that they did not start the fire accident-
ly? We will not KNOW until an arson investigation is completed.
Hopefully we will get an unbiased one.
Whatever happened to -
"Authorites do not know what caused the blaze. An arson invest-
agation team will examine the rubble."
Steve Tyree - These opinions are mine and mine alone.
Who gave the FBI tanks ?
Harry Carter
>v111...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION) writes:
>>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying every
>>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>>went up.
>A minor technical point: unless a cartridge is contained (for example in the
>chamber of a gun) when it goes off, very little of interest happens.....
Quoting Hatcher's notebook:
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures' Institute reported
a demonstration made by taking a large quantity of metallic
cartridges and shotgun shells and burning them in a fire of oil-
soaked wood. The cartridges and shells exploded from time to
time, but there was no general explosion or throwing off of
bullets or shot to any distance.
Throughout the test the men conducting it remained within 20 ft.
of the fire without being injured in any way..... the material
of which the cartridge and shells are composed will usually not
fly more than a few feet.
In tests conducted by the National Rifle Association, both rifle
and pistol cartridges were exploded by heat under an ordinary
corrugated pasteboard carton, and neither fragments of the
cartridge cases nor bullets penetrated the cardboard.
Any scientists care to try this out in their kitchen? :-)
- h
Alan Ezekiel
>hal...@zeus02.desy.de writes...
>
>>The B.B.C. are also reporting that bodies of B-D members were found
>>with bullet wounds in a manner that suggests they may have been shot
>>attempting to leave the compound during the fire.
>
>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>went up.
Unlikely. Ammunition is not as dangerous when simply burned as it
is when fired from a gun. The brass case is not capable of holding
the pressure generated by burning powder, and will (unless supported
by the walls of a gun barrel or chamber) simply split open. While
this may cause small pieces of brass to fly around, it will not
propel the bullet with any significant velocity.
In fact, it was not uncommon in years past to dispose of old loaded
cartridges by burning them. As long as you were not close enough
to take a piece of flying brass in the eye, you were reasonably safe.
Thus, the detonation of loaded magazines or loose rounds might cause
slight injury but would be unlikely to cause fatal bullet wounds.
-- Alane --
/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
/ NOBODY shares my opinions, | "I am a jelly doughnut" \
/ especially not my employer | -- President John F Kennedy \
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
Morris the Cat
| Any scientists care to try this out in their kitchen? :-)
I knew a kid in high school that took a 30-06 blank cartridge
and put it on the stove, put a coffee maker on the stove, and
turned the fire on. He reported that the detonation definitely
resulted in a hole in the coffee maker...
Christopher C. Morton
Your point is well taken. I heard him on TV last night. Sometimes I
forget to not believe ANYTHING the FBI/BATF says. The problem is that I
generally expect better from the FBI than from the BATF. Unfortunately,
the FBI seems so desparate to deflect ANY criticism of themselves that
they are grasping at ANY straw, no matter how thin.
I saw in the "Cleveland Plain Dealer" this morning a report that the CEV
crew threw CS *CANNISTERS* into the Davidian house. I KNOW from
personal experience that burning type devices start fires. I certainly
put out enough of them in the pine forests of Ft. Benning in the summer
of '80. I'd like to know if they really threw burning CS grenades.
Dillon Pyron
Here goes:
More than a few years back (if you were born that year, you can legally drink),
we tried it out. We found an 8 ft. deep cistern that we lined with some 10 ft.
2X6s. We put a large can (one of those industrial sized pork'n beans cans)
stuffed with oily rags and scraps of wood in the bottom. After lighting the
fire, we LOWERED a box of .38 Spc. SWCs into the can. We heard pops, one solid
bang and several "fizzzz shussss". After we thought the excitment was over, we
boldly climbed down to find that NONE of the bullets had left the can, several
of the shells were lieing around the bottom of the well and the boards had all
died of smoke inhalation. And 5 or 6 of the shells still had live primers!
--
Dillon Pyron | The opinions expressed are those of the
TI/DSEG Lewisville VAX Support | sender unless otherwise stated.
(214)462-3556 (when I'm here) |
(214)492-4656 (when I'm home) |Texans: Vote NO on Robin Hood. We need
py...@skndiv.dseg.ti.com |solutions, not gestures.
PADI DM-54909 |
ALEXANDER MICHAEL
>where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the magazines
>went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait for an
>autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
>
>Either way, they're all dead and the FBI & Atty. Gen. Vampria are still
>responable.
Last time I checked, the bullet weighs quite a bit more than the case, and said
case is a hell of a lot weaker than the chamber of a gun, and the burning rate
of gunpowder is propotional to the pressure.
Translation: Not bloody likely.
Ammunition exploding would either explode in bulk, removing large hunks of the
surrounding landscape, or it would go off singly and spray the area with low
velocity, lightwieght shrapnel. If a cop can't tell the difference between
a wound inflicted by such shrapnel and a wound inflicted by a 55 grain bullet
doing better than Mach 3, he's in the wrong line of business.
--msa
P.S.--100 AR-15's for 100 people? Gee, my dad has 3 and there are only 2
people living there. Obviously preparing to take over the world or something.
Just can't trust them crazy conservative Presbyterians, ya know.
--
Soon I discovered that this rock thing was true. Jerry Lee Lewis was the Devil.
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet. All of a sudden,
I found myself in love with the world, so there was only one thing that I could
do was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long.
Mark Wilson
|I saw in the "Cleveland Plain Dealer" this morning a report that the CEV
|crew threw CS *CANNISTERS* into the Davidian house. I KNOW from
|personal experience that burning type devices start fires. I certainly
|put out enough of them in the pine forests of Ft. Benning in the summer
|of '80. I'd like to know if they really threw burning CS grenades.
It has been reported that the Davidians were using straw to baricade the
windows and to provide insulation. With all that straw around, I would be
very surprised if the CS cannisters did not start a fire.
--
Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related.
Mark....@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Richard Hoenes
ti...@convex.COM (Mike Tighe) writes:
>aj...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher C. Morton) writes:
>
>>In a previous article, v111...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (P.VASILION) says:
>
>>>Can you imagine what happens when a magazine explodes? Bullets go flying
>>>every where. IMHO, these "gunshot wounds" were actually caused when the
>>>magazines went up. A Texas ranger does not a pathologist make, so I'll wait
>>>for an autopsy to determine if they were shot first.
>
>>A more likely explanation is that they shot themselves. Of course some
>>people may think that it hurts more to be shot than to burn to death.
>
>Perhaps nobody was shot.
>
>Just about everything the ATF/FBI has claimed has turned out to be a lie or
>unsupported by evidence/fact. I wish the media would recognize this and
>start asking some tough questions, so we could get some real answers.
>
>The most recent example occurred Thursday afternoon, when the Medical
>Examiner reported that of the 35 bodies recovered so far, none have bullet
>wounds in them. He also stated that many of the bodies were face down.
>This contradicts ATF/FBI claims that some were shot in the head, and were
>found face up.
found face up'? While the FBI said it appeared some of the victims
had been shot, they didn't make any definitive statements. Neither
did the ME. Don't take preliminary reports as assertions of fact.
Neither the FBI nor the ME sounded like they were ready to swear
to their statements in a court of law.
>When asked about the ATF/FBI reports that some had been shot he replied,
>"there is absolutely no evidence of that" ... "It appears they died from
>smoke inhalation".
>--
some had sustained gunshot wounds.
Richard
Rick Bressler
>I would doubt bullets would go flying. There is no particular force to make
>the bullet leave the scene of a cartridge going off outside of a barrel. The
>brass shell would burst too soon to give the bullet any real velocity. I
>wouldn't want to be near it, but I do not think bullet wounds would result.
>Shrapnel wounds would be more likely
For a discussion of this, see Hatchers Notebooks. This experiment was
done long ago.
The quick summary:
Mr. Hatcher placed a variety of small arms rounds on a bar of SOAP,
under a card board box with an electronic method of igniting them.
Result: Soap was not 'destroyed' and the CARDBOARD BOX contained all
the results of the 'explosion.'
Conclusion,
Small arms rounds set off outside of a firearm pose little risk except
possibly eye injuries and minor wounds. Large concentrations of ammo,
or 'magazines' (not the type you insert into your semi auto) probably
pose a larger risk, but mostly from heat and flame. (This is also
covered in the above reference.)
Rick.
John F Carr
>Perhaps you consider that Hitler was not responsible for the Holocaust
>since the allies could have done more to stop him?
Attention please!
According to the rules of usenet flame wars, once a discussion degenerates
to the point where Hitler is mentioned, that flame war may be declared
ended. I would like to take this opportunity to do that now. Clearly
further discussion is not useful with the current set of facts, and the
current name calling and invocation of Hitler's name is not productive even
by the standards of usenet talk groups.
If you must continue, please don't discuss this in misc.legal. It's not
about the law. If you would like to discuss the law as it applies to the
Waco incident, please ask questions of the form: "if the FBI started the
fire accidentally, who would be legally responsible for the deaths".
Note that followups are set not to include misc.legal.
--
John Carr (j...@athena.mit.edu)
John De Armond
>Small arms rounds set off outside of a firearm pose little risk except
>possibly eye injuries and minor wounds.
True.
>Large concentrations of ammo,
>or 'magazines' (not the type you insert into your semi auto) probably
>pose a larger risk, but mostly from heat and flame. (This is also
>covered in the above reference.)
No more risk than smaller stashes unless the stash is somehow confined so
the heat from early ignitions could somehow bulk-heat the remainder.
Two years ago this month my house and office burned. In my office was my
reloading bench. On the top shelf next to the wooden ceiling was
about 100 lbs of smokeless powder, 5 lbs of black powder, several thousand
primers and a couple thousand loaded rounds, primarily in .45ACP, .30-20
and .308. The fire was extinguished before the area containing the
reloading supplies were fully involved. There was about 1/2" of char on
the joists, subsequently removed by sandblasting. Lots of heat in other
words.
None of the powder kegs ignited. One 1lb can of pistol powder ignited.
No explosion, as the can opened at the seam as it was designed to do.
The black powder cans were charred and got so hot the plastic lids
completely melted and ran down inside. The smokless powder was
contained mostly in 8 lb cardboard or metal kegs. The kegs were charred
badly enough that the paper labels burned completely off and in the case
of the metal cans, the plastic lids melted completely away.
Many of the rounds cooked off. They were in close proximity to wood
on all sides so the effects were easy to observe. In most cases with the
rifle ammo, the cartridge cases ruptured in the middle. Many bullets were
found still in the neck. Small shards of brass were lightly stuck into
the wood. Lightly enough that brushing them with a fingertip would usually
dislodge them. Primers generally popped out of the primer pockets.
The .45ACP rounds that cooked off left empty cases and bullets laying around.
No dents were observed above the storage area, indicating the bullets
left the cases slowly enough not to be a hazard.
Ordinary small arms ammo is NOT a hazard when cooking off regardless
of what the FBI says.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC |Interested in high performance mobility?
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers?
Marietta, Ga | Send ur snail-mail address to
j...@dixie.com | per...@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Lee Harvey Oswald: Where are ya when we need ya?
Richard Hoenes
crph...@hound.dazixca.ingr.com (Ron Phillips) writes:
>In article <16BB914D...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>, V21...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU (Richard Hoenes) writes:
>|>
>|> As he said, he will need to complete his examinations to determine if
>|> some had sustained gunshot wounds.
>
>including David Koresh, were wounded and/or killed in the ATF's original
>assault on the complex. Unless they have miraculous healing powers, it
>is a "given" that some bodies recovered will show evidence of being shot.
>
The bodies of those killed in the initial shootout were found in graves
inside the compound. The people with the gunshot wounds to the head
were found above ground. After 51 days of decomposition I hope they
can tell the difference.
Richard
Ron Phillips
|> some had sustained gunshot wounds.
I don't understand this thread. It is known that several Branch Davidians,
including David Koresh, were wounded and/or killed in the ATF's original
assault on the complex. Unless they have miraculous healing powers, it
is a "given" that some bodies recovered will show evidence of being shot.
--
**************************************************************
* Ron Phillips crph...@hound.dazixca.ingr.com *
* Senior Customer Engineer *
* Intergraph Electronics *
* 381 East Evelyn Avenue VOICE: (415) 691-6473 *
* Mountain View, CA 94041 FAX: (415) 691-0350 *
**************************************************************
Bob Hale
>|>responable.
>
>
>No Koresh is responsible.
>
>If a murderer goes on the rampage it is the murderer who is
responsible.
Who murdered whom? Who fired first?
>Phill Hallam-Baker
Bob Hale ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!ha...@ucsd.edu ...!ucsd!btree!ha...@uunet.uu.net
Loren I. Petrich
>In article <16BB914D...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>, V21...@VM.TEMPLE.EDU (Richard Hoenes) writes:
:
: As he said, he will need to complete his examinations to determine if
: some had sustained gunshot wounds.
>I don't understand this thread. It is known that several Branch Davidians,
>including David Koresh, were wounded and/or killed in the ATF's original
>assault on the complex. Unless they have miraculous healing powers, it
>is a "given" that some bodies recovered will show evidence of being shot.
Sure. But 51 days is plenty of time to decompose. And being
shot directly in the head suggests an execution, probably by David
Koresh himself.
--
/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
/l...@s1.gov
M...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
>
> Sure. But 51 days is plenty of time to decompose. And being
>shot directly in the head suggests an execution, probably by David
>Koresh himself.
>
>--
>/Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster
>/l...@s1.gov
Or could it possibly show that a person who was burning to death was
put out of their agony by another ? If I saw someone I cared for
being consumed by flames, and I knew that I could not save him/her
I know that I would put a bullet in their head to save them
further suffering... That, to me, seems a much more likely alternative
than David Koresh executing his followers, especially in light of the
independent testimony of the 7 who survived, describing the last day.
Michael Barbitta
Standard Disclaimers apply.
Mark Wilson
After a fire of that magnitude, I doubt you would be able to tell whether
the meat had begun to decompose before it was scorched.
A shot in the head could mean many things. You are displaying your
prejudices when you *assume* that it means an execution. You are displaying
your ignorance when you then assume who pulled the trigger.
COCHRANE,JAMES SHAPLEIGH
>In article <93118.1...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> M...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>>
>>Or could it possibly show that a person who was burning to death was
>>put out of their agony by another ? If I saw someone I cared for
>
Last I checked, it was known as the coup d'grace... an unfortunate necessity
in situations where medical assistance is unavailable, and the choice is between
allowing a person/animal to die slowly in pain or to end their pain quickly and
mercifully... Many people condemn this as murder and barbaric, but I have heard
the charge of barbaric behavior turned back on those who would let someone die
in agony when their agony could be terminated. I have only been put in that
position with a buck that ran out in front of my truck, and pray that I never
need consider it with a person. Correction, we had to put my dog to sleep when
I was in high school...
James
--
********************************************************************************
James S. Cochrane * When in danger, or in doubt, run in * This space
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu * circles, scream and shout. * for rent
********************************************************************************
C. D. Tavares
> >Or could it possibly show that a person who was burning to death was
> >put out of their agony by another ? If I saw someone I cared for
> >being consumed by flames, and I knew that I could not save him/her
> >I know that I would put a bullet in their head to save them
> >further suffering... That, to me, seems a much more likely alternative
> >than David Koresh executing his followers, especially in light of the
> >independent testimony of the 7 who survived, describing the last day.
>
> Really? That REALLY seems the much more likely alternative to you?
If Koresh was shooting everybody who wanted to leave, what motives
would the nine who successfully escaped such a death have for denying it?
--
c...@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR c...@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Paul Roberts
>put out of their agony by another ? If I saw someone I cared for
>being consumed by flames, and I knew that I could not save him/her
>I know that I would put a bullet in their head to save them
>further suffering... That, to me, seems a much more likely alternative
>than David Koresh executing his followers, especially in light of the
>independent testimony of the 7 who survived, describing the last day.
Really? That REALLY seems the much more likely alternative to you?
j...@rti.rti.org
> Sure. But 51 days is plenty of time to decompose. And being
>shot directly in the head suggests an execution, probably by David
>Koresh himself.
"Probably by David Koresh himself?" What makes you say that?
-joe
Andy Freeman
>last-minute revolt, David Koresh either performed the execution
>himself or ordered some of his underlings to do it for him.
Was Koresh "the boss" in the sense that Clinton was "the boss"
for both the initial and final assaults? Or, is Koresh's role
closer to that of Bentsen (ATF is in Treasury) and Reno (FBI)?
How about Higgins (ATF) and Sessions (FBI)? Or is Koresh "the boss"
in the sense of being the field commander?
I ask because Koresh would probably be considered legally liable, so
I'm trying to figure out which of the govt "bosses" who have
"accepted" responsibility are in a similar position.
-andy
--
Loren I. Petrich
Because he was clearly the boss. Unless there was a
last-minute revolt, David Koresh either performed the execution
himself or ordered some of his underlings to do it for him.
--
KENNEDY JAMES SCOT
IMHO, this doesn't seem to be a very likely possibility. However, we
must not rule this possibility out yet. It *could* be true. Another
explanation for how these seven people got shot, one that I don't think
anyone has mentioned before, is that they *may* be victims of
'friendly fire'. These people may have been unintentionally shot while
the BDs were firing on the tanks. This is rather unlikely but it is
not beyond the bounds of reason. Hopefully, the people that survived
the fire will be able to shed some light on this topic. For now we
can only speculate.
Scott Kennedy, Brewer and Patriot
Before: "David Koresh is a cheap thug who interprets
the Bible through the barrel of a gun..." --ATF spokesman
After: "[The ATF] is a cheap thug who interprets
[the Constitution] through the barrel of a gun..." --Me
*******************************************
* BATF = Cigarette Cops *
* FBI = Fuehrer's Bureau of Incineration *
*******************************************
Mark Luedtke
>shot directly in the head suggests an execution, probably by David
>Koresh himself.
Suggests to whom? There are quite a few possibilities of which execution is
only one (and by Koresh personally is clearly nothing other than unfounded
blabber.)
--
Mark Luedtke ma...@dvorak.amd.com
This was typed by an infinite number of monkeys.
KENNEDY JAMES SCOT
> In article <C5wCu...@dscomsa.desy.de>, hal...@dscomsa.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:
> - Does Texas law require specific authorisation for the tactics used
> - in executing the warrant? The warrant is merely a permission from the
> - court for the police to infringe liberties that would otherwise be
> - protected, in order to collect evidence for a trial. I was not aware that
> - US courts were responsible for deciding on the manner in which the
> - BATF decide to protect themselves while serving a warrant on a dangerous
> - person.
> -
> - Next you will all be whining about the FBI supressing the "Book of Koresh"
> - as if anyone was interested in the words of a dangerous fanatic.
>
> I'm amused and amazed at the naivete of the critics of the BATF. It's
> quite apparent that none of them have ever been through police training
> of any sort or been in a position where their lives were on the line in
> the line of duty. If they had then they would realize that NO officer
> with any functioning brain cells would step into that particular set of
> circumstances (serving the warrant on the BD's) without thoroughly
> covering his/her buttocks. Look at the facts.
>
> They were serving a warrant on:
>
> 1) An organization previously involved in an incident involving
> firearms, one which resulted in legal action (the outcome is immaterial,
> the fact that shooting was involved indicates a willingness to resort
> to firearms if necessary).
>
> 2) An organization professing a fear of the coming "armageddon" and
> espousing the use of firearms as a way of preserving their way of
> life.
>
> 3) An organization that had reportadly been hoarding vast amounts of
> weaponry and ammunition and practicing for it's use.
>
> 4) An organization for which there was ample evidence of possible
> federal firearms law violations (much has been made in the media of
> the reported existance of a .50 machine gun - whether or not it
> existed, the mere POSSIBILITY of it being there warranted extreme
> caution).
>
> Given all of this, knocking at the front door with anything LESS that a
> small army would have been foolhardy.
>
> Go in unprepared, come out dead.
What you say may very well be true, however we need to remember that the
sheriff in Waco had served an arrest warrant and a search warrant before
on David Koresh for alleged child abuse. The search warrant, I believe,
was for illegal firearms (someone please correct me if I am in error
here). Koresh cooperated with the sheriff and the sheriff didn't have
any problems with Koresh. So, my question is this: why didn't the ATF
serve the search warrant like the sheriff did? After all Koresh had
all kinds of guns even back then but HE DIDN'T TRY TO KILL THE SHERIFF!
The reason why Koresh and his followers fired at the ATF agents *may*
be because they felt threatened when grenades came sailing through the
windows. On the other hand, Koresh probably didn't feel threatened by
the sheriff so he didn't try to be confrontational with him.
Please note: I'm not implying that a search warrant SHOULD NOT HAVE
BEEN SERVED! I believe (for the time being anyhow) that the ATF did
have probable cause that the Davidians were violating firearms
regulations. Therefore, they *were* justified in serving that warrant.
I do however object to the manner in which it was served. IMO,
they should have served the warrant in the *normal* fashion not
'cowboy-style'. Those four agents that were slain *might* still be
alive today if they had done so.
> --
> vogon1!compnect!frackit!da...@psuvax1.psu.edu | Dave Ratcliffe |
> - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave | Sys. <*> Admin. |
> - or - dave.ra...@p777.f211.n270.z1.fidonet.org | Harrisburg, Pa. |
John De Armond
> I'm amused and amazed at the naivete of the critics of the BATF. It's
> quite apparent that none of them have ever been through police training
> of any sort or been in a position where their lives were on the line in
> the line of duty. If they had then they would realize that NO officer
> with any functioning brain cells would step into that particular set of
> circumstances (serving the warrant on the BD's) without thoroughly
> covering his/her buttocks. Look at the facts.
I'm amused and amazed at wannabe cops playing Brown Shirts while claiming
to know something about police work. Having been a volunteer cop ("volunteer
means I did the same training and has the same powers as a regular cop
but was not paid. Volunteer pigging was about the only way to legally
carry concealed in Tennessee in the past [maybe still true?]), I'll assure
you that gestapo-like SS raids are NOT the way proper police work is done.
My department did not, as a matter of policy, do no-knock raids for
the very reason one should not have been done in Waco - the preservation
of life is more important than anything else. Most rational departments,
particularly those out of sight of the TV cameras, know that in almost
all circumstances other than a violent hostage situation, waiting the
perps out is the safest way to do things.
A RATIONAL law enforcement operation would never have led to a seige.
A RATIONAL operation would have snagged Koresh out in the open. Even
given the Black Shirt initial raid, a RATIONAL operation would still
have avoided loss of life. The simple, but not TV glamorous, tactic
of pulling back, appearing to leave and then grabbing him when he
left the compound would have accomplished the legitimate law enforcement
goals without killing anyone.
What happened at Waco was NOT law enforcement after day 1. What happened
there was government sponsored vengeance pure and simple. The objective
of the FBI was to kill the davidians in a manner absolving them of
liability. Every tactic used was designed to reenforce the Davidians'
view of the government as the agent of armageddon in an effort to push
them toward mass suicide. They achieved their goal, though in a slightly
more messy manner than they wished.
I suggest you get back to your John Birch reading and leave the wannabe
copping to the TV actors.