New Half gegabyte ROM, This is no joke!
t...@nmtvax.uucp
Well, this weeks issue of Electronics (April 19th) has a interesting article
in it on the idea of using CD digital laser disks a very high density ROMs.
They claim that a single CD would have the storage space of half a gegabyte!
But until now manufacturing such disks has been expensive. Not anymore. A
company (see article) has announced it has a way of stamping CDs like records
at a very fast rate. They claim that in volume they could produce CDs for
less than the cost of a good floopy diskette. This doesn't count a original
$2500 master charge. Compare that to the method of copying software to
floppies at the slow rates that must be used.
As for cost and speed, lets see. Audio samples at around 44khz with about
16bits per and two channels (stereo) that comes out to about 176k bytes a
second or 1.408megabits a second. Not as fast as a hard disk, but what
4in hard disk has that kind of storage? Cost, well a CD player can be found
for about $600 these days. Remember that a player for stereo has lots of
extra circuitry for conversion to audio that wouldn't be needed for a computer
interface. Lets say about $500 including a controller. Not bad!
Now who would use such a thing? Well, rumor has it that IBM (yes big blue!)
has just purchased over 1.3million of the things. Rumor has it that they may
soon unvail a new high density storage system for there computers that will
include a CD(s?) with lots of software on it! The reason for this is that IBM
wants to blow the competition out of space and time itself. Just imagine what
a inexpensive CD with half a meg of software on it would be like if it were
inexpensive....why the entire UNIX operating system including sources and
all the extras anyone would want would fit with space to spare. Why? Just
remember that AT&T has just recently declared war on the market place with
its own dreams of creaming the competition. IBM might lose in software
costs, but in the long run who would be the loser?
Well net landers, what do you think? Can anyone out there imagine writing
a software package to be sold on such a thing (i mean half a gegabyte is big!).
And remember to that a CD will never wear out. No contact with the playing
surface. It may only be readable, but with all that stuff just sitting at
your computers fingers tips.....
Tim Tucker
...ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!tim
P.S. Please, no replys of software piracy or theft of CDs. Gag me...
P.P.S Remember, you heard it hear first.
Ron Natalie <ron>
CED is the RCA stupid video format with a stylus the C is "capacitive"
I believe. RCA has discontinued manufacturing CED players (GOOD!).
CD is COMPACT DISK and is a smaller version of the laser disk for AUDIO
purposes. CD's are here to stay (for a while).
-Ron
David Geller
soon be no more. I would be absolutely amazed if this were to
happen. Why IBM alone could keep the techonology and the industry
that supports it alive (their recent order of 1.3 million CD players
supports my notion). Also - new players are being released all of
the time. Why, there is even going to be players made for cars in
the near future. Compact disks should be with us for some time.
"fortune telling in Virginia..."
David P. Geller
Computer Consoles, Inc.
{seismo}!rlgvax!geller Office Systems Group
11490 Commerce Park Drive
Reston, VA 22091
Der cuss
disk referred to in the original article IS a laserdisk;
the head does not touch the recording surface, and it is
not on the way out. Your statements apply to the CED disk,
which is different from the CD disk, so let's not mix
the two, eh?
custead
ihnp4!sask!custead
official beer-drinker of the 1984 olympics
Archie Lachner
(4", I think) laser disk, not "capacitve disk," the thing RCA recently
gave up on.
--
Archie Lachner
Logic Design Systems Division
Tektronix, Inc.
uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss}!tektronix!teklds!archiel
CSnet: archiel@tek
ARPAnet: archiel.tek@csnet-relay
Steve Upstill
Well, yes, but if you think that the big news is "putting all of
UNIX on one cheap device", you're missing the boat. The REAL significance
of 1/2GB ROM is for what you might call "vast-storage". Think of it:
the database for an entire profession could be stored on a single $500
device, updatable weekly or monthly. For example, an auto-parts store
would no longer need a five-foot rack of parts catalogs, but could get
all its information, intelligently indexed, instantly (or secondly,
anyway). I would expect Apple to be delighted at the prospect of their
N-million "knowledge workers" having such easy access to so much
information. Face it: we are looking at the start of a whole new
sub-industry. I predict billions in two years.
Steve Upstill
Stanley Shebs
stan shebs
utah-cs!shebs
Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL
have abbreviated the abbreviation, and referred to the CED disk
as a CD--and I was thinking that way when I posted, ok? Sorry,
and it's a non-issue, since it's the CED that's defunct.
*Give 'em a match, and they'll burn Chicago to the ground...*
-Mrs. Murphy
Dave Ihnat
ihuxx!ignatz
t...@nmtvax.uucp
When I posted this article I just naturally assumed that everyone knew
I was talking about CD laser disks. This is not the same as a certified
digital disk that is still just a plastic record. The term CD is being
associated with those new 5in (said 4in in error before) digital laser
disks that are just starting to appear in audio circles. They work just
like any laser disk and the head doesn't make contact. Unlike laser
movie disks and the like they are half the size though. Also, note that
gegabyte should be gigabyte. I was up too late that night and just didn't
know what I was thinking spelling it that way....
Tim Tucker
...ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!tim
Mark Callow
> Sorry, not to harp, but...a Laserdisk as to a CD disk as a Space Shuttle
> at launch is to OS-360. ...
> ... The head on a CD disk does make contact with the recording surface,
> unlike the Laserdisk.
You are confusing CD (Compact Disc, otherwise known as Digital Audio Disc)
with CED (Capacitance Electronic Disc or something similar). RCA have indeed
just cancelled the CED.
CD's are alive and well and definitely do use lasers to read the disc. THe
disc is 12cm in diameter as opposed to the laser video disc whcih is 12 inches
in diameter.
--
From the TARDIS of Mark Callow
m...@qubix.UUCP, decwrl!qubix!m...@Berkeley.ARPA
...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{ittvax,amd70}!qubix!msc
"I'm a citizen of the Universe, and a gentleman to boot!"
Mark Callow
They're not 5 inches they're 12 CENTIMETRES. God! When is this country
going to go metric? I am fed up with buying things in tenths of a pound...
Phil Ronzone
>> soon be no more. I would be absolutely amazed if this were to
>> happen. Why IBM alone could keep the techonology and the industry
>> that supports it alive (their recent order of 1.3 million CD players
>> supports my notion). Also - new players are being released all of
>> the time. Why, there is even going to be players made for cars in
>> the near future. Compact disks should be with us for some time.
Ahem - I believe Dave Ihnat used CD to mean the RCA developed
Capacitive Detection (CD) disk. RCA recently gave up on the
technology, and it will soon be no more. The decison of RCA
seemes to have been marketing (lack of standardization compared
to the audio Compact Disks (another CD)), but the contact of
the stylus with the record was 100+ year old technology
compared with the non-contact laser pickup. An RCA engineer
was quoted as being unable to understand the consumers objection,
since wear wasn't detectable until almost 1000 playings.
I wonder if this was the same engineer that approved the
construction in 1965 of a 300 million dollar brand new
highly automated VACUMN TUBE plant for RCA (sold in 2 years
for 25 million)?
ju...@umcp-cs.uucp
and files on these 1/2 gigabyte CD's the potential for an error to cause lots of
damage is high. eg 300 engineers get stress analysis w/ some vital parameter
wrong eg g=9.6m/s^2.
a CD format w/ a player that can write on the CD (reserve some space for corrections)
giving you a 1/2 giga PROM would be a better technology.
--
Spoken: Judd Rogers
Arpa: judd.umcp-cs@CSNet-relay
Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!judd
re...@umcp-cs.uucp
From: ju...@umcp-cs.UUCP (Judd Rogers)
this may not be as usefull as it sounds. since the idea is to
mass-produce data and files on these 1/2 gigabyte CD's the potential
for an error to cause lots of damage is high. eg 300 engineers
get stress analysis w/ some vital parameter wrong eg g=9.6m/s^2.
/* ------------- */
I kind of doubt that they'd stamp out these things and sell them without
verifying them first. There would also doubtless be error correction of
some form. In fact, even on the audio discs they have some elaborate
error detection/recovery cruft.
Any other media that programs get distributed on is susceptible to errors.
How many times have you received a bogus distribution tape, for example?
Not to mention that it would seem harder to corrupt data burned solidly
into a piece of plastic (or whatever it is) than it would to corrupt data
floating as magnetic domains on a film of mylar. And don't forget that there
is another eighth-inch layer of plastic over the coded piece of plastic.
Pretty tuff.
Then again, there are still those who want to go back to the "reliability"
of stepper relays. *Sigh*...
-rehmi
--
Uucp: ..!seismo!umcp-cs!rehmi By the fork, spoon, and exec
CsNet: rehmi.umcp-cs@csnet-relay of Khron, Kernel ContreMain,
ArpaNet: rehmi@maryland Earl of Tetravale & Tumbolia.
Jim Trethewey
>I'm tired of buying things in tenths of a pound.
I agree. Although I was raised with the archaic English system of
weights and measures, it's about time we were done with it. What
happened to the U.S. Govt. that [last time I remember] said we would
be totally converted by 1980?
For those who say "It would be hard to get used to...", I submit this:
In the summer of 1982, I spent 4 weeks in Europe visiting my parents.
The first two weeks were a bit strange, seeing highway signs in km and
grocery products in kg and ml. After returning to Oregon, while I was
driving on the Interstate, I realized I had forgotten what a mile was.
It really doesn't take that long to acclimate yourself... you'd be
surprised how long it doesn't take.
[Apologies for those who don't want to see this in net.micro. This is
where it started.]
Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL
one is, if not the pinnacle of achievement in its field, a milestone
on the way; while the other is just a big, ugly abortion. I submit
that CD is the latter. The head on a CD disk does make contact with
the recording surface, unlike the Laserdisk. Both the media and the
read head suffer from this. I've heard a rumor that the CD is to soon
be no more, while the future of the Laserdisk seems assured, so let's
not mix the two, eh?
In a nitpicking mood,
Dave Ihnat
ihuxx!ignatz
ju...@umcp-cs.uucp
Organization: Univ. of Maryland, Computer Science Dept.
Lines: 20
that it is very easy to make a small mistake (my example was g=9.6 vs 9.8m/s)
that does NOT show up in testing the software and data bases. I was not talking
about errors in reading from the CD. Those are taken care of by the hardware.
We all know that bugs in software need to be fixed all the time. Even w/
software that has been around for years and years. With so much stuff on these
disks there will be corespondingly more fixes that need to be done. This will
drive up the distribution costs as every release will require junking all the
old disk. If there is know way to make minor changes the CD may be useless for
distributing software.
There is an even worse problem related to the above. Since these things are
going to be mass produced only established software that a reasonably large
number of people want will be put on them. Since the available software is
by no means optimal (some would say worthless) for the tasks they perform
I see no future for the CD.
d...@unc-c.uucp
I think the bit error rate ( uncorrected ) for a clean Audio Compact Disc
is something like 10 e-04. Corrected, it is much higher. However, when they
get dirty, things rapidly deteriorate ( I heard a filthy one on a local station,
they, too skip just like regular records if fouled up enough ).;
For people interested in the technical aspects of this, there is an
excellent treatise on the Compact Disc and its error correction schemes in
either April or May "Audio".
The Audio Compact Disk has got to be at least 10,000,000 times better
than Shugart SA712 1/2 height floppies (thus far, I am 0 for 8 on these.
Now Vertex, on the other hand, I am 7 for 7.) { NOTE REPLACE FLOPPIES WITH
WINCHESTER ABOVE--ooops!) Anyone have any horror stories about SA712's
dya
Mark Callow
this may not be as usefull as it sounds. since the idea is to
mass-produce data and files on these 1/2 gigabyte CD's the
potential for an error to cause lots of damage is high.
The potential for error ought to be very low. CD encoded music contains
ample amounts of error detection and correction information. The chances
of errors going by undetected are at least as small as on magnetic discs.
Raymond Chen
would like to run your VAXens with most of UNIX on a ROM? Consider the number
of unfixable bugs. It would make a great distribution medium, but five years
(hopefully less) from now, when I have a VAX+ class machine sitting on my desk,
I want to run the *smallest* amount of straight, canned software I can get away
with. Call me spoiled, but I've gotten to *like* having the source code on-
line. I don't hack it (unless I can't avoid it), but it's nice to know that I
can, since there always seems to be one more major bug. (Remember the vi
modeline feature?)
For crying out loud, you couldn't even use a binary debugger. At the current
prices, I don't think the additional storage would be worth the additional
frustation. Now, a half-gigabyte RAM would be something worth looking into.
Read/write players are out, but they're only one-time writes. Still, if the
price of disks came down low enough, that wouldn't be bad (when the price of
the r/w players come down. They are *expensive*.).
By the way, I read an earlier rumor about IBM going the secrecy road with its
successors to the PC. That would positively make me want to p***, excuse me.
I own a PC, and the thing I like most about it is the documentation. How
many other micros give you BIOS listings, instructions and examples on
how to write and install custom device drivers, full documentation on the
graphics chip, etc.?
I can see it, five years from now. A blue, sealed box with the IBM logo on
it, running half a gigabyte of unalterable IBM software. Ugh. Pardon me,
but I'm feeling a little sick...
Source licenses are wonderful things...
--
The preceding message was brought to you by --
Ray Chen
princeton!tilt!chenr
ma...@tekig1.uucp
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 (Tek) 9/26/83; site tekig1.UUCP
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Date: Mon, 7-May-84 22:04:36 EDT
tilt.UUCP>
Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR
Lines: 16
<"...we're just a habit, like sacharrine..." P. Simon>
To !tilt!chenr 's lament about the CD being a ROM and thus having marginal
utility I can only react with amazement...When was the last time you
corrected a typo in a book or magazine? Did the existence of that typo
ruin the book? Possibly, but not likely.
Think of the utility of having the entire contents of the The Encyclopedia
Brittanica on line? or all the cookbooks you ever wanted?
or professional references (law libraries?)?
I sincerely doubt that the possibilities have escaped Big Blue...and I sure
don't expect to see anything as hacked up as OS source or object (ANYBODY'S)
on a ROM. (With, naturally, the exception of the stuff which makes all this
primitve hardware perform in a civilized manner...my terminal, f'rinstance.)
wer...@ut-ngp.uucp
software error or upgrade to one of those "many programs" or "useful data
files requires replacing the whole disk .....
I, for one, do not cherish the idea of having to buy a new disk every few
weeks, just to stay updated. Maybe a point could be made, that it should
be possible to live without updating for a very long time. Certainly true
in some program cases - I still use MODEM7 Version 12 - but imagine such a
disk containing a complete MVS-Operating System (I like to pick on IBM
software. at least, I get no flames from those UNIX-fundamentalists rumoured
to haunt this net), plus a lot of compilers, utility programs, and useful
data files.
And remember, maintainance and updates cost $$$, so how much are these
updates going to cost? At the cost of a magazine subscription I'd accept,
but then I don't think I ever believed in the Easter-Bunny.
But there are certainly useful applications, how about getting the phone
book published in this form - they only update once a year anyway and
you get the book at no extra cost (until now, anyway). There goes the
ability to "upgrade" the phone book by adding an updated number with pencil,
the ultimate word processor, IF equipped with an erasor ...
My conclusion: As neither software nor data is cheap, this disk is either
full of garbage and affordable, or VERY expensive to buy. As maintenance
and updates are expensive, only the super-rich will be able to afford it.
MAYBE, IBM will offer those drives below cost as an add-on, and then
sell their software and software updates to millions of PC-owners, at a
small profit, but still making GEGA-bucks in total, but I'm not recommending
that you hold your breath.
An Afterthought
Many years ago while system-hacking on IBM-mainframes, I dropped a letter in
their suggestion box, saying that they should come up with a way to make
ALL their software available to ALL sites, and charge according to usage.
We, the customer, had to waste so much time and effort to justify to
management the purchase cost of new software, that many packages simply
never got considered, even when free trial-periods are offered. But when
all the software in the world is just sitting there to be tested and
played with by anyone without need to worry about the "small" (in IBM terms)
usage fee, everyone would benefit. Plus, imagine the competetive edge that
would have put IBM in (or not), as all independent software houses would
have to follow suit. Whereas IBM has the capital strength to reap profits
slowly by usage fees, I, seriously doubt that software houses could survive
such a policy, as they need the cash faster to cover costs and new
developments.
On the other hand, if I think that the independent's software would be
available at the same easy terms, and comparisons made that easy, I had
my doubts that IBM-software would get very much use - but I did not tell
that to IBM, of course, because that's what I was scheming for, anyway,
in retaliation for all the nightmares received due to IBM-software.
Well, maybe IBM has developed a black-box to guarantee fees are collected
according to usage, and to make pirating programs off those GEGA-disks
"nearly" impossible (near enough not to worry about revenues),
or maybe their software has improved tremendously, or their marketing
evaluation indicates that it is not likely that the competition will be
able to stand up to the massive onslaught of IBM "cheap" software and data;
Maybe, I have the largest bonus in history coming my way for the best idea
since IBM was founded ....
I promise to accept graciously, never say
another word about IBM software, and guarantee that even my grand-children
will pay homage to the wisdom of IBM ....
Ha,
werner @ utexas-20.ARPA
werner @ ut-ngp.UUCP (via ihnp4)
Bernie Roehl
than program distribution. I mean, even with sources and all, Unix isn't
pushing a gigabyte! More likely it will be the Encylopedia Britannica or
the OED that gets put on CD, not software.
--
-Bernie Roehl (University of Waterloo)
Brint Cooper
software. Suppose your OS cost $125 and you were guaranteed the next
three updates or bug-fixes for free. Then suppose subsequent
enhancements (fixes?) cost $20.00. Since the cost of the medium should
halve in the near future, this is not unreasonable. Suppose you
were guaranteed this for, say 3-5 years. How would you feel about that?
Henry Spencer
.......................... I mean, even with sources and all, Unix isn't
pushing a gigabyte! .............
Just wait for 4.3BSD, if 4.2 is anything to judge by... :-(
--
Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry