DM and pay/money (for coffee)
kjack
or boat crew/groupie makes. Sure, it depends on where you are and what you
are really doing (making coffee and passing out doughnuts).
So what's the scoop - what does an average dive master make, instructor,
boat captain and so on.
uh huh.
When you live on the bottom, it's important to remember what sinks to your
level.
HLAviation
>or boat crew/groupie makes. Sure, it depends on where you are and what you
>are really doing (making coffee and passing out doughnuts).
>
>So what's the scoop - what does an average dive master make, instructor,
>boat captain and so on.
>
>uh huh.
>
>
Ok, Don't know current prices for the rec end since I run commercial dive boats
now and make about $325 a day. 5-6 yrs ago, in KW DM averaged $35 a trip
Captain $50. You were doing ok if you got in 2 trips a day and worked 7 days a
week. Too bad that never happens. Reallity was average 8 trips a week in
season, 4-5 out of season, sometime go 1-2 weeks with no trip due to weather.
Figure in the cost of living in the keys, and you make enough to squeak by
unless you wanted to live under the Cow Key bridge or off in the mangroves
somewhere, in which case you'd be the richest kid on the block. Luckily your
base income would be supplement anywhere from$50 - $500(if you were lucky
enough to get chartered by a gay group, bless their little faggot hearts, those
guys know how to tip) a week by tips, and this was the money you used to buy
dive gear at key man prices or dinner if you couldn't snake up a lobster
diving. I doubt the pay structure has changed considerably.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Rich Lockyer
>guys know how to tip) a week by tips, and this was the money you used to buy
>dive gear at key man prices or dinner if you couldn't snake up a lobster
>diving. I doubt the pay structure has changed considerably.
>http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
I've heard that instructors are looking at about $100 per student.
That's per student per class... it's no wonder some instructors like
to blow their students through in a week straight and run 4-6 classes
a month.
My instructors have always done one class per month... either OW, AOW,
or a specialty. In each of my classes, that has meant that the
instructors made about $500 for the month.
--- Rich
http://www.geocities.com/richlockyer/compindex.html
HLAviation
>
I know for a fact our OW diver instructors weren't making $100 per student.
Shoot the entire certification was only $200 and that included everything. I
think they made more like $40-$50. On the techie end everyone made a little
more because of the extra work involved, but the problem there was you could
only do one trip in the day and techies NEVER tip. I guess it's against their
religion. I wonder if there's something in DIR protocols about tipping.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Bob D.
>
>
What planet are you from? "Beam me up, Scotty!"
Seriously, the pay rates for group entry-level classes I've heard of range from
a low of around $25 per student to around $75 or $80 per head. To equate those
figures to dollars per hour figure an average class size of 6 and 30 to 40
hours of the instructor's time.
DMs working on boats may work of tips only, may make a small hourly wage or
will receive a payment scheme based on the number of divers onboard. DMs
assisting with classes typically only receive "perks" such as free air,
discounts on equpment and trips, etc.
Jammer Six
<rloc...@linkline.DONTSPAMME.com> wrote:
€ I've heard that instructors are looking at about $100 per student.
€
€ That's per student per class... it's no wonder some instructors like
€ to blow their students through in a week straight and run 4-6 classes
€ a month.
Jesus christ. No wonder they're all poor.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daley
HLAviation
>sent it to me didn't know I'm a rigger.
>
>I'm passing it on to all the people on the group who have been helpful to
>others.
>
Thanks, but don't spread it around that I may be helpfull, it may tarnish my
image as Captain Evil Bastard at my new job.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Rich Lockyer
>>I've heard that instructors are looking at about $100 per student.
>>
>What planet are you from? "Beam me up, Scotty!"
>
>Seriously, the pay rates for group entry-level classes I've heard of range from
>a low of around $25 per student to around $75 or $80 per head. To equate those
>figures to dollars per hour figure an average class size of 6 and 30 to 40
>hours of the instructor's time.
Southern California... this was from a retail "chain" type store, not
a small shop where the instructor is also the owner and worker. These
instructors are either retired and teaching full-time or have "day
jobs" unrelated to scuba.
Your class size is about the same (all 3 of my classes have been 4
students)... time is probably a good ballpark... 3 three-hour classes,
2 eight-hour Saturdays, 2 two-dive half-days at the beach, and one day
on a boat.... that's 4 full days plus the three evenings of classroom
Again, the problem is they aren't doing this 7-days a week... my
instructors have had only one class per month with maybe a specialty
thrown in, so even at $100/student, these guys made a max of $800 for
a month of teaching.
It's a full-time job for someone who is retired and loves scuba, or
for someone working through school and loves scuba, or for someone
who's spouse makes a decent income and loves scuba, or for someone who
has a steady "day job" with a regular schedule (counts me out) and
loves scuba....
The important thing is, as long as part of the equation is "loves
scuba", I think the money is secondary.
--- Rich
http://www.geocities.com/richlockyer/compindex.html
kjack
Funny though, you dump that much money into something you love only to get
peanuts on the other side. Books, speciality classes, classes, gear,
travel, and all the other little hidden goodies and geez - nothing except
love.
When you're on the bottom, remember what floats down.
Brian Wagner
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> Funny though, you dump that much money into something you love only to get
> peanuts on the other side. Books, speciality classes, classes, gear,
> travel, and all the other little hidden goodies and geez - nothing except
> love.
Cost me next to nothing.
Alan Armbruster
Florida Keys. Typical wages in Islamorada vary from 30 - 45 bucks a trip
for an Instructor (Instructors are a dime a dozen so why go with just a DM,
if you can pay em the same and the DM can't teach, go with the Instructor)
Captains can make 50 bucks a trip or 500 per week, night dives usually 50
bucks. May be higher or lower depending on the operation but that seems to
be typical wages. 2 trips a day 7 days a week are rare though, but I know a
few that do it. Some captains and instructors hate doing night dives some
love doing them.
As for courses, that varies big time. Some operators will give you a flat
wage for a course regardless of number of students (rarely we will get large
classes down here, 1 - 4 people is usual) so most courses will be 1:1. If
you have some specialty courses you may be able to negociate more money.
Again it varies. Bottom line--- do you make lots of money? Probably not.
Can you make a living? Yeah, but expect to work your butt off. Do you call
in sick? Wrong business to be in - get a union job. Can you pass a drug
test? Yes, cocaine, and pot are still drugs.
Al Armbruster
Upper Keys Dive Center
"kjack" <kja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nBa17.89687$ID1.16...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
kjack
Keys.
I've checked online about higher ed courses - I see the price differences
between shops and agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSI). I'm in no hurry so I can pick
and choose what I want.
Do I make a lot of money now? Hahahahaha. Yeah, just call me Billy Gates.
:-)
I do make a living. And I work my butt off. And in the past few years, the
only time I've called in sick was so I could go diving.
And yes, I can pass a drug test - but I don't know of any shops in my area
that drug test. Yessir, fill my bottle with a little of that pot you're
smoking, make it a goood dive. (just kidding, but if I'm thinking it, it's
already been done) Perhaps that's another subject line altogether.
"Alan Armbruster" <bru...@terranova.net> wrote in message
news:MmG27.27164$rh.5...@news6.giganews.com...
Dan Bracuk
:And in the past few years, the
:only time I've called in sick was so I could go diving.
So what you are trying to say then, is that you are dishonest.
Dan Bracuk
Toronto, Canada
The world will end at noon tomorrow - 12:30 in Newfoundland.
Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.chaoticarts.com/~scuba/
Paul M. Deniston
"Dan Bracuk" <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
news:3b4bad9d....@news.axxent.ca...
> From kjack
> :And in the past few years, the
> :only time I've called in sick was so I could go diving.
>
> So what you are trying to say then, is that you are dishonest.
>
lance smith
that they usually pay DM's $100/trip (24hours)...
-lance
"Paul M. Deniston" <pden...@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<wgP27.31074$Ro2.4...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>...
kjack
Thanks for the thought.
"Dan Bracuk" <bra...@axxent.ca> wrote in message
news:3b4bad9d....@news.axxent.ca...
kjack
Probably one of those anal things about always being at work, eh?
"Paul M. Deniston" <pden...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:wgP27.31074$Ro2.4...@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net...
>
Dan Bracuk
:Probably one of those anal things about always being at work, eh?
More of an anal thing about telling the truth. You know, if you want
to go diving, take vacation. Only call in sick for medical reasons.
Those sorts of anal things.
kjack
honest, always faithful, and act like the good dogs that they are. If I
want to call in sick I can - that is my choice. Golly, in all the years
I've been there, the bosses don't have a problem with it. I wonder why you
do?
Only call in sick for medical reasons.
Jammer Six
<kja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
€ If I want to call in sick I can - that is my choice.
Typical employee.
kjack
"Jammer Six" <>
> Typical employee.
>
Typical response.
Jammer Six
<kja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
€ Typical response.
Go to bed, employee.
Your master is going to want you sharp in the morning, and your future
depends on his opinion of you.
kjack
sleep in while I go protect the world. I appreciate the thought about
getting a little shut-eye, but I'll sleep when I'm dead.
"Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> wrote in message
news:9ijul5$sp1$0...@216.39.135.12...
> In article <TPe37.22691$T97.4...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, kjack
> <kja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ? Typical response.
Brian Wagner
>
> Oh yeah, that's right, silly me, how could I forget that Canucks are ever
> honest, always faithful, and act like the good dogs that they are. If I
> want to call in sick I can - that is my choice.
Wonderful attitude. What else is your choice? Stealing supplies
from your employer? Why be so shy, go straight to outright
embezzlement.
> Golly, in all the years
> I've been there, the bosses don't have a problem with it.
Because they're foolish enough to believe you're really sick?
> I wonder why you do?
Because it costs them, and they pass the cost onto consumers.
Because many employers, in response to abuses like yours, have
reduced or eliminated sick time, hurting honest people who get
legitimately ill.
Michael Wolf
<3B4DAE34...@mr.marconimed.com>:
Shit, I hate it when you're right... ;-)
--
Michael Wolf
-----
Life's a beach and then you dive
remove stopspam to reply
kjack
"them" in this case being Mr. Wagner) it becomes a form of crusade,
lecture, or soapbox event.
> Wonderful attitude. What else is your choice? Stealing supplies
> from your employer?
Why be so shy, go straight to outright
> embezzlement.
Where do you work, I'll start there next week if it's okay with you? Just
another company I can screw into the ground, right?
>
> Because they're foolish enough to believe you're really sick?
The flipant answer of course would be "well, that's their fault." Of
course, the real reason is that they know what I'm doing because I am honest
enough to have told them my hobbies, interests, and what I like to do. And
have told them that they can either not pay me or let me use sick days, or
opt time. But Mr. Wagner, you made a grand assumation that I'm a liar, bad
employee, and all the rest of the goings with that. Thanks, but I truly
don't deserve it. BTW - just so you know - I'm slated to work 37.5 hours a
week but mange to put in, on a consistent basis, on average of +/- 62 hours
a week. I'm not whining about that - just wanted to let you know how bad
I've screwed it up for everyone.
>
> Because it costs them, and they pass the cost onto consumers.
> Because many employers, in response to abuses like yours, have
> reduced or eliminated sick time, hurting honest people who get
> legitimately ill.
You do not know what business I am in - but you make some pretty grand
assumations (geesh, three times I've used that word in this reply - must be
a theme, eh, Mr. Wagner?) about what I've cost my company. Or what I've
passed on to you, the lowly consumer. Or how my behavior has screwed up an
easy life for you. Sorry, but go find another hole to hide in.
You place a great deal of this on honesty. How far do you go? Do you
speed, thereby using more fuel. Do you recycle 100%, thereby saving our
natural resources. Did you ever play hooky from school. Did did you ever
do this, do that, or . . . Cuz if you've never done a dishonest deed in
your life (even a white lie) then my gawd I'll put you in for sainthood
myself..
Before leaping - know where you go. Know the facts. Could've e-mail to
ask. But no - just a lot easier to assume (4th use) and attempt to jump
straight down my throat.
Mr. Wagner, if ignorance is bliss - you obviously are in utopia.
kjack
lot in common.
Jammer Six
<kja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
€ Of course, the real reason is that they know what I'm doing because
€ I am honest enough to have told them my hobbies, interests, and what
€ I like to do.
There is nothing honest about you.
It amuses us that you think you're honest.
"Some of my best friends are honest!"
kjack
bottom button on my 'Top Shirt.'
I believe you know what that means, eh?
"Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> wrote in message
news:9ilik3$shq$0...@216.39.134.38...
> In article <A9p37.33020$EF2.4...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, kjack
> <kja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ? Of course, the real reason is that they know what I'm doing because
> ? I am honest enough to have told them my hobbies, interests, and what
> ? I like to do.
Michael Wolf
<0bp37.33035$EF2.4...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>:
>Mr. Wolf, please see the response to Mr. Wagner, I believe you two have a
>lot in common.
>
>
>
Oh please don't say that. I've been trying to suppress that horrible
truth...
Michael Wolf
<A9p37.33020$EF2.4...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>:
Hey, this is rec.scuba. What else do you expect?
>
>Mr. Wagner, if ignorance is bliss - you obviously are in utopia.
>
>
--
kjack
. . lol
H. NED Huntzinger
>
> > Because they're foolish enough to believe you're really sick?
>
> The flipant answer of course would be "well, that's their fault."
But of course...its always "someone elses fault" in today's society.
And if you kill yourself DM'ing, it will be the boat captain's fault,
or the customer's fault, or Mother Nature, or someone...just not you
because you're our "victim" to be coddled </sarcasm>.
> You do not know what business I am in - but you make some pretty grand
> assumations (geesh, three times I've used that word in this reply - must be
> a theme, eh, Mr. Wagner?) about what I've cost my company. Or what I've
> passed on to you, the lowly consumer.
And just what business is that? It seems to be an industry that has
long hours, sucky benefits and poor pay, if you're actually considering
DM'ing for the money.
FYI, some of the DM'ing pay rates I've seen are ~$5/hour. If you're
really looking at DM'ing for the pay, its probably because you think its
a free ride, rather than paying like you are today. But don't forget
to deduct the cost of insurance from your "pay", and don't assume that a
working dive is anything near as easy or enjoyable as a recreational
dive. For the most part, the fulltime Pro's that I know who have been
at it for 5+ years tend to avoid doing any diving during their free
time.
> You place a great deal of this on honesty.
Contextually, we have to. When you start to try to cheat Mother Nature,
its no longer "if" but "when" you get caught, and merely how badly will
you get punished for it. You can get lucky, but her penalty for some
offenses is death and this tends to ruin one's day. This requires
brutal honesty with ourselves with what we're doing. What doesn't help
are those people who have a cultural mindset that its okay to cheat &
lie, who falsely believe that it "won't happen to me" and who overall
downplay their responsibility for their actions: these are the ones who
tend to die in this sport, and such deaths make it tougher for the rest
of us to avoid the burden of external regulation. So when a bad egg
comes along here, he tends to get yelled at. Maybe he'll straighten
himself out on his own, maybe not.
So are you a good egg or a bad egg? FWIW, from what you've said so far,
you sound like the type of DM that I ignore...and who doesn't receive a
tip. If you're really thinking about doing this for the money, my
perception is important to you.
-hh
Brian Wagner
>
> You place a great deal of this on honesty. How far do you go? Do you
> speed, thereby using more fuel.
You have logic issues. As long as I legally pay for it, I can
use all the fuel I want, and there's not a shred of dishonesty
involved.
> Do you recycle 100%, thereby saving our natural resources.
Again, what does this have to do with dishonesty? Apparently you
confuse honesty with tree-hugging militant environmentalism.
> Did you ever play hooky from school.
Nope - if I could hold food down, I was there.
> Did did you ever
> do this, do that, or . . . Cuz if you've never done a dishonest deed in
> your life (even a white lie) then my gawd I'll put you in for sainthood
> myself..
Two fallacies here.
1. I may have done something dishonest at some point in my life,
but it's not an ongoing practice, and I acknowledge it was wrong,
rather than boast about and defend it. You ignore this
difference.
2. This line of reasoning places you squarely in the position of
no longer asserting the honesty of your actions, but rather
defending your dishonesty as somehow righteous because others may
also have been dishonest at some point. You want to make up your
mind here?
> Before leaping - know where you go. Know the facts. Could've e-mail to
> ask.
Or.... you could have properly applied the English language to
communicating your actual message. Based on the information you
have just revealed, you utilized personal paid time off, or comp
time - you did not "call in sick." The clear meaning of "call in
sick" is to claim illness as a reason for missing work. I refuse
to be responsible for decrypting the jabbering of every
subliterate who can't be bothered learning to express himself
properly.
> But no - just a lot easier to assume
Yes, it is far easier to assume that words are being used in
their proper linguistic manner. This is what a common language
is all about.
Brian Wagner
>
> Of
> course, the real reason is that they know what I'm doing because I am honest
> enough to have told them my hobbies, interests, and what I like to do.
BTW, you're still clinging to a significant ambiguity here. Do
you or do you not, when you wish to go diving, call and tell them
that you are skipping work to go diving, or do you merely assume
(gee, there's that word you're so down on) that they know this
because they know you like to dive, and because you expect them
to assume (ouch) claims of illness are false anyway?
Lee Bell
> > You place a great deal of this on honesty. How far do you go? Do you
> > speed, thereby using more fuel.
I speed, thereby using less fuel.
Lee
HLAviation
>
>Lee
Unless 1: your local speed limits are awfully low, or 2: you have a vehicle
with an extrordinarily low drag coefficien, if you are going over 67-70 mph,
you are using more fuel by speeding past these speeds. This is your max range
speed for most modern cars drag coefficients.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Bob Crownfield
>
> kjack wrote:
> >
> > You place a great deal of this on honesty.
> The clear meaning of "call in
> sick" is to claim illness as a reason for missing work.
> I refuse to be responsible for decrypting the jabbering of every
> subliterate who can't be bothered learning to express himself
> properly.
and thus you win "The Laugh of the Day Award" !!
Vinnie the Bullet
: > Did you ever play hooky from school.
: Nope - if I could hold food down, I was there.
A serious character flaw!
It should be mandatory for every schoolkid to try to skip school. I went
to a *very* strict Catholic high school in the UK, and it was a proud,
long-honored tradition of our House to try to cut Fri afternoon classes.
Getting caught wasnt pretty - those nuns were *mean*. I still have
nightmares of Sister Mathilde, the Brasilian.
Lee Bell
> >I speed, thereby using less fuel.
>
> Unless 1: your local speed limits are awfully low, or 2: you have a
vehicle
> with an extrordinarily low drag coefficien, if you are going over 67-70
mph,
> you are using more fuel by speeding past these speeds. This is your max
range
> speed for most modern cars drag coefficients.
I don't have to go 67 to 70 to speed, but I might still be more efficient up
to about 80 (no claim here, just a maybe). I drive a 1994 Camaro Z-28 with
a 6 speed manual transmission. The engine runs best at 2000 rpm or more
which, in 6th gear, is somewhere around 80. The car is aerodynamic but I
don't know if it's aerodynaic enough to allow the higher gear and engine
efficiency to offset the drag. Locally, however, where the speed limits are
only 40 mph, I am sure I save gas by speeding. My car idles higher than 40
mph in 6th gear.
Lee
Brian Wagner
>
> Unless 1: your local speed limits are awfully low, or 2: you have a vehicle
> with an extrordinarily low drag coefficien, if you are going over 67-70 mph,
> you are using more fuel by speeding past these speeds. This is your max range
> speed for most modern cars drag coefficients.
Depends - there is more than drag at play here. In modern cars,
things like air conditioning, increased alternator resistance due
to a megawatt stereo, etc., place a fixed load on the engine
regardless of speed.
The fuel consumed for these loads is purely time dependent, and
the faster you go, the less time is spent feeding them. In the
1970's, a Porsche 924 required less than 15 hp to cruise at
70mph. Given advances in aerodynamics, tires, etc., since then,
it's conceivable that now, at 70 mph (which is speeding in Ohio)
the air conditoning compressor could represent a significant
percentage of the load on the engine.
kjack
> 1. I may have done something dishonest
Right Mr. Clinton - you never inhaled. Judging by one of your other posts,
you'd have no problems faking a log book if it met your needs to do so. So
where does that leave your honesty?
This is what a common language
> is all about.
Who's "common language?" Yours? English, German, French? Hey, any culture
differences. Or should I assume (shudder) that I must be like you?
My gawd, what a pretentious arse you are.
kjack
> And if you kill yourself DM'ing, it will be the boat captain's fault,
> or the customer's fault, or Mother Nature, or someone...just not you
> because you're our "victim" to be coddled </sarcasm>.
Agreed. Even signing that all important waiver doesn't absolve the
boat/shop/whoever from responsibility. I wonder if I dive in cold water and
spill hot coffee at depth if I can sue?
>
> And just what business is that? It seems to be an industry that has
> long hours, sucky benefits and poor pay, if you're actually considering
> DM'ing for the money.
No, not for money. I wanted to know what DM's make. Yes, my current hours
are sucky - but the hours I put in are my choice - I wasn't whinnig about
the hours. I've already retired once after 20+ years, and I am working on
the second retirement now. That should be realized in the next 3-5 years.
>
> FYI, some of the DM'ing pay rates I've seen are ~$5/hour. If you're
> really looking at DM'ing for the pay, its probably because you think its
> a free ride, rather than paying like you are today. But don't forget
> to deduct the cost of insurance from your "pay", and don't assume that a
> working dive is anything near as easy or enjoyable as a recreational
> dive. For the most part, the fulltime Pro's that I know who have been
> at it for 5+ years tend to avoid doing any diving during their free
> time.
>
When you start to try to cheat Mother Nature,
> its no longer "if" but "when" you get caught, and merely how badly will
> you get punished for it.
Understood. I've picked out enough salt water softened bodies to last a
lifetime.
>
> So are you a good egg or a bad egg? FWIW, from what you've said so far,
> you sound like the type of DM that I ignore...and who doesn't receive a
> tip. If you're really thinking about doing this for the money, my
> perception is important to you.
>
It has been, and I appreciate your input. Thanks.
>
> -hh
Brian Wagner
>
> Judging by one of your other posts,
> you'd have no problems faking a log book if it met your needs to do so. So
> where does that leave your honesty?
Not faking, repdroducing from memory. I made it clear that it
would be accurate in the experience it documented. You seem to
have a reading comprehension problem. Some people fill out their
log book on the boat, some at the end of the day, some at the end
of the trip. I fill mine out when I need it.
> Who's "common language?" Yours? English, German, French? Hey, any culture
> differences. Or should I assume (shudder) that I must be like you?
Excuse me, what language did you CHOOSE to post in? Yes, you
guessed it, that would be the very same one you are responsible
for using properly in expressing yourself.
> My gawd, what a pretentious arse you are.
Quite the contrary, the only arrogance here is yours, in your
assumption that you can just babble and the rest of us are
responsible for decyphering your meaning.
Jeff Miller
> assumations (geesh, three times I've used that word in this reply - must be
> a theme, eh, Mr. Wagner?) about what I've cost my company. Or what I've
> passed on to you, the lowly consumer. Or how my behavior has screwed up an
> easy life for you. Sorry, but go find another hole to hide in.
maybe before you go bragging about using a big word so often, you
should check your grammer
from Miriam webster online
The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling
suggestion below or try again using the Dictionary search box to the
right.
Suggestions for assumation:
1. assumption
2. assumptions
3. assertion
4. exhumation
5. acylation
6. isolation
7. ascension
8. ozonation
9. Ascension
10. oscillation
Den73740
>should check your grammer
>
>The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling
Grammar? ;<)
Dennis
hkr...@capuantispam.net
"from Miriam webster online"
I had no idea Webster married a nice Jewish girl, and that she went online...
--
Harry Krause
------------
If its good, they'll stop making it
Grammer Man
Brian Wagner
>
>
> "from Miriam webster online"
>
> I had no idea Webster married a nice Jewish girl, and that she went online...
> If its good, they'll stop making it
That's for sure.