Bible guidelines for gay sex standards
Tim
If you are a Christian gay, you by your new nature desire to live
holy. Here are a few points I've found helpful. First, remember that
the Bible does not address the specific issue of being homosexual.
"The Bible says nothing specifically about the homosexual condition
(despite the rather misleading RSV translation of 1 Cor. 6.9), but its
condemnations of homosexual conduct are explicit. The scope of these
strictures must, however, be carefully determined. Too often they
have been used as tools of a homophobic polemic which has claimed too
much." New Bible Dictionary, 2nd & 3rd Ed., article "homosexuality".
Since the Bible does not address our situation as being gay, but it
does condemn certain homosexual conduct, it is important to figure out
how to lay out a personal code of sexual ethics. I've found Paul's
writings to heterosexuals to have some guidelines suitable to us as
Christian homosexuals.
1 Cor. 7.7-9 teaches us that celibacy is a "gift" of God that not all
men have. Therefore, we have to be honest with ourselves whether we
have that gift to use. If we do not have the gift of celibacy,
marriage was the other choice, but gays cannot marry. We can be
faithful and avoid promiscuity though. Notice, Paul does not give his
'victorious Christian living' verses as a 'cure' here because the sex
drive is not a sin needing cure or overcoming. So, we gays can take
the teaching of fidelity in a relationship to heart as a guide for us.
1 Cor. 7.5 also teaches us that a faithful relationship where the sex
drive has vent is the proper course if we have not the gift of
celibacy. We run counter to Bible as well as common sense to think we
can live celibate without the 'gift' of celibacy. Paul states we
become subject to the temptations of Satan when deprived the sexual
release in proper context. For us homosexuals, the context is NOT
male/female.
What to avoid? Romans 1.26, 27 would indicate by the idea that some
changed their natural desire for the opposite sex into homosexual
lusts; that we as 'born gays' must avoid entanglements with the
lascivious lusts of heterosexuals, married or single. The verse
speaks to straight males who change their desire and chase guys.
Avoiding 1 Cor. 6.9 sins: the two words in that passage are "male
prostitutes" and "sodomites"(NRSV). Clearly this is speaking of
prostitution and promiscuity. We Christian homosexuals can also sin
in that manner; wild living and carousing. This too in Paul's day
included involvement with married men. 1 Tim. 1.10 is the same word
as 1 Cor. 6.9 and falls into the same class.
What to shoot for? 1 Sam. 18.1-3; 2 Sam. 1.26; Eccles. 4.7-12; and
over all, remember:
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the
LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk
humbly with thy God?
Keep in mind that Christ has set us free (Gal.5.1) so we can work out
our "own" salvation (Phil. 2.12-13). Notice, we are to work out our
OWN salvation and not meddle with other's salvation. Notice also, it
is "work out" our salvation which we already possess, not work to get
it, prove it, or retain it!!!
This is my historical Baptist, Bible viewpoint which may not be shared
by more liberal Christian gay persons, but we remain one in Christ.
Tim
Todd
Tim wrote:
>
> If you are a Christian gay, you by your new nature desire to live
> holy. Here are a few points I've found helpful. First, remember that
> the Bible does not address the specific issue of being homosexual.
I feel sorry for you. The Bible couldn't be any more clear.
Unfortunately for you, you apparently won't find that out until
judgement day.
Romans 6:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
abound?
2: God forbid........
Todd
--
*****Proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy*****
***And liberals think conservatives are paranoid?! :)***
Rick
Thank you God, I mean Todd.
Todd wrote in message <352B78A8...@XYZrocketmail.com>...
Dolf
Tim,
Thank-you so much for your post. I think it important to give consideration
to the construction of a responsible sexual ethic that is consistent with
the commandment to "show regard for another as you would yourself".
You have alluded to a very important principle in the following:
>What to avoid? Romans 1.26, 27 would indicate by the idea that some
>changed their natural desire for the opposite sex into homosexual
>lusts; that we as 'born gays' must avoid entanglements with the
>lascivious lusts of heterosexuals, married or single. The verse
>speaks to straight males who change their desire and chase guys.
I don't think you go far enough here. We ought to avoid circumstances where
lust causes us to breach a committment to fidelity that we have made to
another. Within that committment of fidelity is the realisation that our
being is given to another in mutal regard and exchange. It also places an
importance upon the vow of fidelity made by others.
In essence a true regard for another is found in the giving of ourselves in
the full embrace of another. It is also found in forgiveness when they
transgress us. Forgiveness by the oppressed does not seek to elevate the
individual or their suffering above another, but likewise reaches out in an
embrace which seeks to treat them as yourself.
Regards
Dolf Boek
Gay Christian
Dolf
I doubt that you feel any sorrow for us. May I instead suggest that you
direct your sorrow to yourself and see its real worth.
Dolf
Gay Christian
Todd wrote in message <352B78A8...@XYZrocketmail.com>...
Todd
Dolf wrote:
<snip>
2Thes:2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that
they should believe a lie:
Dolf
There is hope for you yet if you recognise for own self delusion in the
matter...
The principle of showing a regard for others as you would yourself is a
principle for all humanity irrespective of their life context.
Dolf Boek
Todd wrote in message <352C4883...@XYZrocketmail.com>...
HOLLIS6475
I think it is funny, that people worry about other people's sins and not
theirs. Homosexuality is a sin, so are gossip, rudeness, causing your
brother/sister to fall, judging another (your goin' to H.... for that). and a
bunch of other.
I will be judged by my sins and my sins only.
Hollis
Oh yes, Hyprocrasy is a sin...........
Let us repent and sin no more as a testimony to G-d, so that others may follow
likewise.
us...@northnet.org
I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
best,homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness ,lets face if folks its
just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a woman. they
have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of birth,its a
matter of selection,man or woman? and homosexuals select men,not women
for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
Mycroft;-)
Us...@NorthNet.org wrote in message <352FAE...@northnet.org>...
What gives you the right to judge, particularly based on such ignorance and
prejudice? You've a right to your opinion (and that's all it is, opinion)
but I also have every right to challenge you. You usurp God's sole
prerogative when you dare to judge others' lives. Your dogmatic assertions
that gays are not born homosexual and that gays cannot be christians comes
across as so self-righteous, ignorant and prejudiced that it's hard to
believe anyone could make such a statement publicly. What if I said all
heterosexuals are adulterers, wife-beaters and child-molesters? This would
be equally as arrogant and ignorant. Sexual orientation is mysterious and
its causes unknown but one thing is certain: gay people do NOT choose to be
a part of a reviled, mocked and, frequently, murdered minority. Christianity
is vastly more profound and meaningful than you would make of it. And you do
not have the right to define who can and cannot be a follower of Christ.
Mycroft
DJ
Every culture, including Native American, has identified such persons, but not with scorn and criticism. They were noted for their unique traits that differentiated them from others in their clan. Many were prized for their artistic and musical talents. Others were revered for their sensitive care of the ill and elderly, when no one else would.
And surely everyone has the right to choose who and how they worship.
Or did that change while i've been busy growing old?
DJ
Mycroft;-) wrote:
.
>I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
What gives you the right to judge, particularly based on such ignorance and
Nathan Roberts
I must agree with one and only one point. Judging others is wrong. As
Jesus said 'let you who is without sin cast the first stone' , in other
words, we all sin. But the Bible is rather clear on the issue of gays.
Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their
blood shall be upon them.
Thats right to the point if you ask me. And this isn't the only verse.
Nathan
<><
Mycroft;-) wrote in message <6goef6$c...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
>
>Us...@NorthNet.org wrote in message <352FAE...@northnet.org>...
>>I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
>>why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
>>homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
>>5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
>>rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
>>that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
>>best,homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness
Dolf
And what point is that Nathan, what is the text actually saying?
Dolf
Nathan Roberts wrote in message
Ghost of Quentin Collins
If you have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you wont be judged
for ANY sin!
HOLLIS6475 <holli...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199804110457...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
philo
Us...@NorthNet.org wrote:
>
> I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
> why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
> homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
> 5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
> rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
> that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
> just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a woman. they
> have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of birth,its a
> matter of selection,man or woman? and homosexuals select men,not women
> for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
ENOUGH ALREADY ... as a Christian pastor I apologize for the
funny-mentalist LIE that homos are not BORN gay. This is the basic
premise from which they MUST start in order to prove their foregone
conclusion that homos are evil people who WILLFULLY SELECTED GAYSEX out
of defiance to God because they want what they want. The if above
writer is a HETEROSEXUAL then he/she CANNOT K-N-O-W that which they
assert ... they can only theorize. Because homosexuals are a despised
and oppressed minority ... and because Jesus was a friend to oppressed
people ... I am their friend too.
I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the world of
their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
The Bible-Babblers are pretending to know everything about everybody,
especially people they do not know and do not want to know. If they
will not believe the testimony of homosexuals about their own sexuality,
it is time that we find that out and put this thing to rest once and for
all!!! I cannot stand ANY person who lies, especially a Christian who
lies. PHILO
philo
> >why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
> >homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
> >5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
> >rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
> >that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
> >best,homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness ,lets face if folks its
> >just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a woman. they
> >have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of birth,its a
> >matter of selection,man or woman? and homosexuals select men,not women
> >for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
>
> prejudice? You've a right to your opinion (and that's all it is, opinion)
> prerogative when you dare to judge others' lives. Your dogmatic assertions
> that gays are not born homosexual and that gays cannot be christians comes
> across as so self-righteous, ignorant and prejudiced that it's hard to
> believe anyone could make such a statement publicly. What if I said all
> heterosexuals are adulterers, wife-beaters and child-molesters? This would
> be equally as arrogant and ignorant. Sexual orientation is mysterious and
> its causes unknown but one thing is certain: gay people do NOT choose to be
> a part of a reviled, mocked and, frequently, murdered minority. Christianity
> is vastly more profound and meaningful than you would make of it. And you do
> not have the right to define who can and cannot be a follower of Christ.
> Mycroft
Yes, MyCroft ...
It is time for homosexuals everywhere to state unequivocally that all
heterosexuals are LIERS as a result of their sexual orientation ... that
they have willfully chosen to be LIERS ... and that all LIERS will be
sent to the LAKE OF FIRE, HELL. God says they are LIERS, and God HATES
liers in spite of they ways that they twist Scripture to confirm their
HETEROSEXUAL lifestyle. The ovens of Auschwitz are too good for LIARS.
... PHILO
Tim
On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:08:53 -0500, philo <ph...@werewolf.net> wrote:
>I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the world of
>their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
>DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
For me it was about 6-7 years of age when I had fantasies of an older
male which were erotic in nature. I have NO recollection of being
molested as a small child. I did not know I was different from
others. In fact, I never recalled thinking myself different until at
puberty I noticed friends developing interest in the opposite sex and
I remained totally with my same sex desires. During the early teens
it slowly dawned on me I was different in a major way. My personal
conclusion is, I'm homosexual due to a mix of factors, some present at
birth and others developed in my early years. From the teens through
my 20s I, and my family, spent thousands of dollars on various
'orientation reversal' approaches. I surely did not choose to be
homosexual.
Tim
Melissa Of The Immaculate Assumption
In article <35312a3b...@news.infi.net>,
And in my case, I was a str8 male until 2 years ago at age 47 when I
had sex reassignment surgery. Jennifer & I have been married almost
14 years now and remain so, only now, I'm her wife. Go figure.
But I never made any choice about my orientation either way and
certainly couldn't change it if I wanted to.
This crapola about choice is strictly xtain hate propaganda and is
not supported by science, not that xtians would know what science
is.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
http://revwhite.bestsites.net
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
complaints to your provider.
Melissa, The Virgin Sister Of Jesus Christ
In article <352B78A8...@XYZrocketmail.com>,
Todd <Swi...@XYZrocketmail.com> wrote:
>Tim wrote:
>>
>> If you are a Christian gay, you by your new nature desire to live
>> holy. Here are a few points I've found helpful. First, remember
that
>> the Bible does not address the specific issue of being
homosexual.
>
The bible is a historical novel and has over 200 contradictions, you
moron!
>Unfortunately for you, you apparently won't find that out until
>judgement day.
Stick judgement day up your ass, along with your hate religion!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
Mycroft;-)
So you advocate the execution of gays? That's millions of people according
to even the most conservative estimates. How do you propose to accomplish
this? I suggest you go to your spiritual forebears, the Nazis, for their
very efficient methods of mass extermination.
Typical fundmentalist: exclusionist and condemnatory.
M
--
"All fanaticism is a strategy to prevent doubt from becoming conscious."
-H. A. Williams (Anglican Priest)
Nathan Roberts wrote in message <6gomgh$euu$1...@cletus.bright.net>...
>I must agree with one and only one point. Judging others is wrong. As
>Jesus said 'let you who is without sin cast the first stone' , in other
>words, we all sin. But the Bible is rather clear on the issue of gays.
>
> Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
>them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;
their
>blood shall be upon them.
>
>Thats right to the point if you ask me. And this isn't the only verse.
>
>Nathan
><><
>Mycroft;-) wrote in message <6goef6$c...@argentina.earthlink.net>...
>>
>>Us...@NorthNet.org wrote in message <352FAE...@northnet.org>...
>>>I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
>>>why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
>>>homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
>>>5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
>>>rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
>>>that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
>>>best,homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness
>
>
philo
Tim wrote:
>
> On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:08:53 -0500, philo <ph...@werewolf.net> wrote:
>
> >I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the world of
> >their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
> >DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
>
> For me it was about 6-7 years of age when I had fantasies of an older
> male which were erotic in nature. I have NO recollection of being
> molested as a small child. I did not know I was different from
> others. In fact, I never recalled thinking myself different until at
> puberty I noticed friends developing interest in the opposite sex and
> I remained totally with my same sex desires. During the early teens
> it slowly dawned on me I was different in a major way. My personal
> conclusion is, I'm homosexual due to a mix of factors, some present at
> birth and others developed in my early years. From the teens through
> my 20s I, and my family, spent thousands of dollars on various
> 'orientation reversal' approaches. I surely did not choose to be
> homosexual.
>
Thanks, Tim, for your testimony. PHILO
philo
> had sex reassignment surgery. Jennifer & I have been married almost
> 14 years now and remain so, only now, I'm her wife. Go figure.
>
> But I never made any choice about my orientation either way and
> certainly couldn't change it if I wanted to.
>
> This crapola about choice is strictly xtain hate propaganda and is
> not supported by science, not that xtians would know what science
> is.
>
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
>
>
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
Thank you, Melissa, for your story. I want the funny-mentalists to hear
the real life stories of gay men and women and quit their biased lies
about the cause of homosexuality. PHILO
Mother Melissa Of The Sisters Of Lesbos
In article <199804110457...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
holli...@aol.com (HOLLIS6475) wrote:
>I think it is funny, that people worry about other people's sins
and not
>theirs. Homosexuality is a sin, so are gossip, rudeness, causing
your
>brother/sister to fall, judging another (your goin' to H.... for
that). and a
>bunch of other.
>
>I will be judged by my sins and my sins only.
>
>Hollis
>
>Oh yes, Hyprocrasy is a sin...........
>
>Let us repent and sin no more as a testimony to G-d, so that others
may follow
>likewise.
I've made a macro out of the following because it's the only thing
you idiots seem to be able to keep asking me about:
The reasons I'm here in this newsgroup:
1.) I need to vent a lot of anger because of having my life trashed
by good loving xtains in the name of their religion.
2.) "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility
against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson
3.) “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to
do nothing.”- Edmund Burke 1729-1797
4.) I consider the xtain religion one of the worst forms of tyranny
in the world today and it needs to be exposed as such, for what it
really is, and resisted!
Repent your hatred against homosexuality!
Delete the parts of your myth book that say that homosexuality is a
sin!
It's only a sin to a hate religion!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
http://revwhite.bestsites.net
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
Mother Melissa Of The Sisters Of Lesbos
In article <352FAE...@northnet.org>,
"Us...@NorthNet.org" <us...@northnet.org> wrote:
>I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly
explains
The bible explains? Listen numb nuts, the bible is no more than a
historical myth novel and science has now explained it perfectly
well, so you're blowing crap out your ass making statements like
this and you sound really stupid!
>why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize
your
>homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after
your
>5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
>rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to
state
>that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
>best,
To state that a person is loving and Christian is contradictory at
best!
>homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness ,lets face if folks its
>just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a woman.
I'll buy that. Gotta go find my wife and do it now!
> they
>have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of birth,its
a
>matter of selection,man or woman?
It's a matter of none of your goddamned business nimrod!
> and homosexuals select men,not women
>for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
Typical evil of a hate religion.
Mother Melissa, Innocent Virgin Of The Immaculate Assumption
In article <01bd65f5$22e27020$0a60...@digby.ro.com>,
"Ghost of Quentin Collins" <Di...@ro.com> wrote:
>If you have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you wont be
judged
>for ANY sin!
He's got a ticket to ride....
What utter nonsense!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
Mother Melissa, Sweet Innocent Virgin Of The Immaculate Assumption
In article <35311F...@werewolf.net>,
philo <ph...@werewolf.net> wrote:
>Us...@NorthNet.org wrote:
>>
>> I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly
explains
your
>> homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after
your
>> 5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point
a
>> rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to
state
>> that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
>> just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a
>> have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of
birth,its a
>> for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
>
>funny-mentalist LIE that homos are not BORN gay.
Are you Pastor Fuzz?
> This is the basic
>premise from which they MUST start in order to prove their foregone
>conclusion that homos are evil people who WILLFULLY SELECTED GAYSEX
out
>of defiance to God because they want what they want. The if above
>writer is a HETEROSEXUAL then he/she CANNOT K-N-O-W that which they
>assert ... they can only theorize. Because homosexuals are a
despised
>and oppressed minority ... and because Jesus was a friend to
oppressed
>people ... I am their friend too.
Isn't that nice.
>I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the
world of
>their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
>DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
One day when I was about 7 , I just started looking at women in
sexual ways instead of men. Of course I was a boy at the time and
didn't become a lesbian until after my sex reassignment surgery at
age 47. And after that I found it impossible to change my
orientation, which has always been strictly for women.
>The Bible-Babblers are pretending to know everything about
everybody,
>especially people they do not know and do not want to know. If
they
>will not believe the testimony of homosexuals about their own
sexuality,
>it is time that we find that out and put this thing to rest once
and for
>all!!!
As IF that were possible. As long as your bible says homosexuality
is a sin, you will have a hate religion! Strike out those parts of
your book of myths and we can talk.
> I cannot stand ANY person who lies, especially a Christian who
>lies.
You're in for a rough life.
Mother Melissa Of The Immaculate Dildo
In article <35316B...@werewolf.net>,
philo <ph...@werewolf.net> wrote:
>Melissa Of The Immaculate Assumption wrote:
>>
>> In article <35312a3b...@news.infi.net>,
>> t.da...@mailcity.com (Tim) wrote:
>> >On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:08:53 -0500, philo <ph...@werewolf.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> world of
>> >>their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
>> >>DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
>> >
>> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>>
>> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>>
it's glory:
>> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
>> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
>> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
>>
>>
email me,
>> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile,
harassing,
>> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and
result in
>> complaints to your provider.
>
hear
>the real life stories of gay men and women and quit their biased
lies
>about the cause of homosexuality. PHILO
You're welcome.
Dolf
philo wrote in message:
>I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the world of
>their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
>DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
It was without doubt a discovery which I was ill prepared to do anything
about. Whilst I was engaged to be married (twice), yet I knew that with
such a betrothal came a fidelity commitment that would not be possible to
keep, therefore I decided not to marry despite the social pressure to do so.
Despite the pain, it was more honorable to not marry than to pretend.
Dolf Boek
philo
Thanks, Dolf ...
Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can honestly
say whether or not people are BORN GAY. I am tired of right-wingers
making categorical statements about which they know nothing as if they
are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they are to be
believed. PHILO
zoe wilfong
On 12 Apr 1998, Mother Melissa Of The Immaculate Dildo wrote:
> In article <35316B...@werewolf.net>,
> philo <ph...@werewolf.net> wrote:
> >> >>I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the
> >> world of
> >> >>their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
> >> >>DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
> >> But I never made any choice about my orientation either way and
> >> certainly couldn't change it if I wanted to.
> >>
> >> This crapola about choice is strictly xtain hate propaganda and
> is
> >> not supported by science, not that xtians would know what science
> >> is.
> >
> >Thank you, Melissa, for your story. I want the funny-mentalists to
> hear
> >the real life stories of gay men and women and quit their biased
> lies
> >about the cause of homosexuality. PHILO
>
> You're welcome.
Yes, the 'choice' argument is bullshit. How does a person 'choose' what
they like? They can 'choose' to change their behaviour, but they cannot
choose what their orientation is. Given that there is NOTHING WRONG with
being gay, there is no reason for them to change this behavior. It
really *doesn't matter* whether it is a choice or not, but for myself, I
can say that it was most definitely not a choice.
It is something very basic and instinctual; if you were walking down
the sidewalk and heard sreeching car tires right behind you, you would
automatically turn around and look; if I am walking down the steet and I
see a particular type of woman, my eyes are involuntarily drawn to her
because there is something that interests me, whereas, if I saw Brad Pitt
walking down the street, he would not interest me in the slightest. I
always say that the only thing that 'turned me gay' was buff, amazon
women. (laugh)
I dated guys as a teenager, simply because it was the thing to do, but
it was a huge disappointment, even though there was nothing wrong
with the guys; there was just no spark, although at first i didn't know
why. I was raised very traditionally (stay at home mom, no broken home,
church *every* sunday, CCD, etc) and I basically had NO CLUE that I could
possibly be gay; I mean, aren't all gay people sex-crazed freaks that
live in S.F. and N.Y.? That's what I thought. But anyway, when I was
about 16-17 years old, it just sort of dawned on me that I was gay. It
happened over very short period of time, actually; it was like 'I could
have had a V-8!' After that, everything made sense. It wasn't a
'choice;' it was a *realization* if anything. I have never had a moment
of uncertainty about it since.
As I said, it's something very basic and instinctual, which I'm sure
would take huge amounts of brainwashing to 'cure' me of, if it would even
be possible. However, since there is nothing wrong with it, no cure is
needed.
zoe
Todd
philo wrote:
> Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can honestly
> say whether or not people are BORN GAY. I am tired of right-wingers
> making categorical statements about which they know nothing as if they
> are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they are to be
> believed. PHILO
Interesting point. But why is it that around 15 years ago or so
homosexuals claimed it was a choice?
It wasn't until the discovery of the so called "gay gene" that we
started to hear that they were born that way.
Now, if homosexuals "themselves be the ones who can honestly
say whether or not people are BORN GAY," why didn't they all know this
not so many years ago eh? Seems to me if they are the best ones to know,
it wouldn't have taken someone ELSE finding a "gay gene" for them to
figure it out.
--
Todd--Only a sinner, saved by grace
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his
only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
philo
choice. Please provide reference of any document written 15 years ago
by a homosexual in which he/she used the term "choice" to indicate that
they decided to become gay. I am a word-smith type of person who uses
language specifically and carefully, but some of the people I work with
may get sloppy with language ... especially if they intend to make an
outrageous political statement on purpose in order to get a reaction.
... PHILO
philo
Thanks, Zoe, for the discovery of your sexual orientation. Right-wing
fundamentalists who live a rather provincial and parochial sheltered
life need to hear directly from the people whose lives are affected by
the way they distort an experience they know nothing about. PHILO
Melissa, Mother Of God!
In article <3531F3...@werewolf.net>,
world of
>> >their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
>> >DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
>>
anything
>> about. Whilst I was engaged to be married (twice), yet I knew
that with
>> such a betrothal came a fidelity commitment that would not be
possible to
>> keep, therefore I decided not to marry despite the social
pressure to do so.
>>
>> Despite the pain, it was more honorable to not marry than to
pretend.
>>
>> Dolf Boek
>
>Thanks, Dolf ...
honestly
>say whether or not people are BORN GAY.
I'd actually rather leave it to science, which has done a pretty
decent job of discovering just that.
> I am tired of right-wingers
>making categorical statements about which they know nothing as if
they
>are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they are
to be
>believed. PHILO
Hope you're not holding your breath dear.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
http://revwhite.bestsites.net
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
Border
Mycroft;-) wrote:
> . Christianity
> is vastly more profound and meaningful than you would make of it. And you do
> not have the right to define who can and cannot be a follower of Christ.
> Mycroft
The bible defines a follower in Christ. To practice homosexuality is to rebel
against Christ.
If you are rebelling against Christ you are not following him.
You can't have it both ways.
Border
The point is entirely missed. How or why a person becomes gay is not important.
The fact is, homosexual acts are an abomination, a sin. (Not my words, it's in
the bible) So apparently there were gays back then too.
To follow Christ is to turn away from our sins and to lead a life free from it.
It is not to say that gays have to become hetrosexuals, it means giving in to
those tendancies must be given up. It is a choice. It is recognizing and
accepting it for what it is(sin), and turning it over Jesus.
If any person, regardless of sexual direction, cannot give up the sin in his
life, he is separated from God.
The judgement that counts is not from man, but from God. Quoting scripture and
putting it in the face of gays, does not
equate to judgement by man, it is not a demonstration of hatefulness. It is a
simple stated fact.
Ignoring the scripture that condemns homosexual acts, and justifying it through
other scripture, is a lie. Not only to others but to ones self too.
zoe wilfong
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Todd wrote:
> philo wrote:
>
> > Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can honestly
> > say whether or not people are BORN GAY. I am tired of right-wingers
> > making categorical statements about which they know nothing as if they
> > are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they are to be
> > believed. PHILO
>
> Interesting point. But why is it that around 15 years ago or so
> homosexuals claimed it was a choice?
> It wasn't until the discovery of the so called "gay gene" that we
> started to hear that they were born that way.
> Now, if homosexuals "themselves be the ones who can honestly
> say whether or not people are BORN GAY," why didn't they all know this
> not so many years ago eh? Seems to me if they are the best ones to know,
> it wouldn't have taken someone ELSE finding a "gay gene" for them to
> figure it out.
>
I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
the case within the gay community. More importantly, it simply doesn't
matter whether it is a choice or not. If being gay is wrong, then being
born that way does not make it right. On the other hand, if being gay is
not wrong, then 'choosing' to be gay is also not wrong. Since *there is
nothing wrong with being gay* it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or
not. *Either way* it is still *not wrong.* The whole choice issue is
just a dodge, which unfortunately a lot of gay people have been sucked
into.
zoe
philo
Border wrote:
>
> The point is entirely missed. How or why a person becomes gay is not important.
> Ignoring the scripture that condemns homosexual acts, and justifying it through
> other scripture, is a lie. Not only to others but to ones self too.
Bord ...
How kind of you to proclaim the un-importance of information which
affects other
people's lives with civil and religious persecution! You are all
heart!!
I do not speak for any other than myself when I say that I make no
attempt to
justify homosexual activity by Scripture. That is wishful thinking on
your part
for then you could just dismiss an intelligent discussion of the matter
with a
sweep of the hand by simply labeling it a LIE.
I want you to wrestle with this problem ... I want you to agonize over
it ... I
want you to lose sleep over it knowing that you are talking about real
people
rather than a theoretical math problem. Jesus wants you to be T-W-C!
... PHILO
philo
zoe wilfong wrote:
> I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> the case within the gay community. More importantly, it simply doesn't
> matter whether it is a choice or not. If being gay is wrong, then being
> born that way does not make it right. On the other hand, if being gay is
> not wrong, then 'choosing' to be gay is also not wrong. Since *there is
> nothing wrong with being gay* it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or
> not. *Either way* it is still *not wrong.* The whole choice issue is
> just a dodge, which unfortunately a lot of gay people have been sucked
> into.
>
I understand where you are coming from ... but please hear me out. The
reason I bring
up the matter of CHOICE/NON-CHOICE is that right-wing christians insist
that since
gays have chosen to be gay then they could just un-choose to be gay.
Like Nancy Reagan
said about taking drugs ... "Just say NO."
My research in talking with gay people convinces me that being
homosexual was not a
matter of choice, but a pre-natal disposition that just does not go away
and does not
have closure by just saying "NO" to it. More importantly, with an
involuntary condition calls for the mitigation of culpability ... and
that calls for GRACE in assessing
punishment. I know that this does not satisfy you completely, but it is
the softest
edge I can put on the problem.
... PHILO
Todd
zoe wilfong wrote:
> I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> the case within the gay community.
Then where did the term "alternative lifestyle" come from? That was
something you heard a lot before the discovery of the so called "gay
gene"
Now, no one says it. It's been replaced with "I was born that way"
Todd
zoe wilfong wrote:
> I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> the case within the gay community.
Then where did the term "alternate lifestyle" come from? That was
Melissa, Mother Superior of the sisters of Lesbos
In article <e70n4lyY9GA.202@uppubnews03>,
"Jacob Rossman" <deprog...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>That may be the worst understanding of the bible I have seen in a
while.
>That distortion shows a complete lack of understanding of the
entire bible.
>Someone who was honest and wanting the truth would never wrest
those
>scriptures to remove the clear condemnation of homosexuality.
> We live in an age that cannot stand to be reproved by what the
bible
>clearly says "Homosexuality is Sin", and needs to be repented of
and
>forsaken." So instead people play games with the 'original
languages' and
>come out with an okay to practice sin and live any way they want to
live.
>Men are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.
> Have a nice day.
Your bozo brained religion sez a lot of things, and it's still
fantasy and myth.
LET'S SEE IF i HAVE THIS RIGHT YET. XTIANITY IN A NUTSHELL.
YOU BELIEVE:
1.) THERE'S AN OLD MAN GOD SITTING UP ON A GOLDEN THRONE SOMEWHERE
IN THE SKY, BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE IT OR SAY EXACTLY WHERE. (
DELUSIONAL )
2.) AND THIS OLD MAN WROTE THE BIBLE, EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T WRITTEN
BY LIGHTNING BLASTED IN STONE BUT WAS WRITTEN BY TIRED OLD MEN HERE
ON EARTH AND BASED ON MYTHS AND LEGENDS TOLD AROUND CAMPFIRES IN
PRIMITIVE TIMES.
3.) YOUR GOD RAPED MARY TO IMPREGNATE HER AND SHE HAD HIS SON ( AS
IF THAT'S NOT A FAIRY TALE! IT'S EVEN COMMON IN OTHER PRIMITIVE
MYTHOLOGY! )...
4.) HE DID A HUMAN SACRIFICE LATER, BY TORTURING HIS SON TO DEATH
PAINFULLY WITH LOTS OF BLOOD, NAILED TO A CROSS ( AND YOU'RE
AGAINST VIOLENCE ON TV! ) , ( MAKING HIM INTO JSHSOAS; JEWISH
SCAPEGOAT HUMAN SACRIFICE ON A STICK ) , AS A JEWISH SCAPEGOAT BEING
BLAMED FOR THE SINS OF ALL OTHER PEOPLE FOREVER. ( WHAT A SENSE OF
FAIRNESS! ) ( SCAPEGOATING WAS INVENTED BY THE JEWS AND HAS BEEN
USED AGAINST THEM EVER SINCE, BY THE WAY, EXPLAINING WHY JEWS FIND
YOUR RELIGION HIGHLY OFFENSIVE.)
5.) AND YOUR GOD LOVES EVERYONE UNCONDITIONALLY, WITH THE CONDITION
THAT IF YOU DON'T DO EVERYTHING HE COMMANDS YOU TO DO HE WILL HATE
YOU AND TORTURE YOU IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. ( SOUNDS LIKE A NO-WIN
SITUATION THAT DEFEATS FREE WILL, DEMANDED BY A SPOILED CHILD OF A
GOD NOT WORTHY OF EVOLVED PEOPLE HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH!)
6.) AND TODAY, YOU DO RITUAL SYMBOLIC CANNIBALISM AND EAT HIS BODY
AND DRINK HIS BLOOD.
NO THAT'S NOT DELUSIONAL. IT MAKES ALL KINDS OF SENSE....TO AN
INFERNAL BOZO BRAINED IDIOT!
So if you want to repent something, repent the parts of your myth
book that tell you to hate gays! You Pharisee hypocrite! YOU are the
abomination!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
Melissa, The Pure, Sweet And Innocent!
In article <35331EAC...@ptialaska.net>,
Border <bor...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
>
>
>Mycroft;-) wrote:
>
>> . Christianity
>> is vastly more profound and meaningful than you would make of it.
And you do
>> not have the right to define who can and cannot be a follower of
Christ.
>> Mycroft
>
> The bible defines a follower in Christ.
And the bible is a book of myths, why not admit it?
> To practice homosexuality is to rebel
>against Christ.
More myths and lies from your hate religion!
>If you are rebelling against Christ you are not following him.
>You can't have it both ways.
You aren't following anything because he doesn't exist!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
http://revwhite.bestsites.net
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
Melissa, The Pure, Sweet And Innocent!
In article <3533257A...@ptialaska.net>,
Border <bor...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
>The point is entirely missed. How or why a person becomes gay is
not important.
words, it's in
>the bible)
Mythology taken out of context to rationalize hate!
> So apparently there were gays back then too.
There always have been and always will be. Live with it!
>To follow Christ is to turn away from our sins and to lead a life
free from it.
Following a fantasy pixie.
>It is not to say that gays have to become hetrosexuals, it means
giving in to
>those tendancies must be given up. It is a choice. It is
recognizing and
>accepting it for what it is(sin), and turning it over Jesus.
You're totally full of shit! The thing gays need to give up is your
stupid religion! Take their religious business elsewhere where they
will find acceptance!
Melissa, The Pure, Sweet And Innocent!
In article
<Pine.PCW.3.91.98041...@dialup55.sdsmt.edu>,
zoe wilfong <zcw...@silver.sdsmt.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Todd wrote:
>
>> philo wrote:
>>
>> > Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can
honestly
>> > say whether or not people are BORN GAY. I am tired of
right-wingers
>> > making categorical statements about which they know nothing as
if they
>> > are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they
are to be
>> > believed. PHILO
>>
>> Interesting point. But why is it that around 15 years ago or so
>> homosexuals claimed it was a choice?
>> It wasn't until the discovery of the so called "gay gene" that we
>> started to hear that they were born that way.
>> Now, if homosexuals "themselves be the ones who can honestly
>> say whether or not people are BORN GAY," why didn't they all know
this
>> not so many years ago eh? Seems to me if they are the best ones
to know,
>> it wouldn't have taken someone ELSE finding a "gay gene" for them
to
>> figure it out.
>>
>
choice,
>nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this
was
doesn't
>matter whether it is a choice or not. If being gay is wrong, then
being
>born that way does not make it right. On the other hand, if being
gay is
>not wrong, then 'choosing' to be gay is also not wrong. Since
*there is
>nothing wrong with being gay* it doesn't matter whether it is a
choice or
>not. *Either way* it is still *not wrong.* The whole choice issue
is
>just a dodge, which unfortunately a lot of gay people have been
sucked
>into.
Amen!
John Hosie
Philo,
I've read several consecutive posts here by you. I see that you
are torn by the fact that people's feelings are hurt here. I
understand that it is painful for many people. Sometimes pain is
caused by others. Sometimes it is brought on by ourselves - by
denying we are the ones with a problem.
I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
But to suggest that an individual doesn't make a choice to take a
drink is folly. I've seen how it has destroyed families. It has
caused unimaginable pain. But ignoring the fact that drinking to
get drunk is sin because it may hurt someone's feelings is, at
best, ignorant. At worst, it is condoning something that God's
Word tells us is wrong.
Do we ignore it because so many drunks have their feelings hurt
by hearing it is sin? Do we ignore the high suicide rate among
alcoholics? Do we tell them that it is OK for them to go ahead
and drink because, after all, it is a genetic thing, and it makes
them feel good? Of course not!
There are certain people who have a tendancy to commit violent
crime. People who come from families where one or more others
have participated in violent or sexual crime tend to be more
likely to be involved in violent or sexual crime in their own
lives. Does this mean we just excuse it because of the family
they came from? Of course not! We counsel to avoid it. We work
with the children to give them some healthy background so that it
can improve their chances. We teach them about the Word of Jesus
Christ in the hope that some of it will catch on and the children
may be saved from the fate of their relatives. But we do not just
surrender and tell them it is OK because they were born with a
tendancy toward violence and sexual crime.
I used to smoke cigarettes. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was
causing my body problems. But I just couldn't stop. I tried to
quit hundreds, if not thousands, of times. I tried the patch, the
gum, hypnotism, and who knows how many different ways to stop.
But I always went back - sometimes in hours, sometimes in days,
on a rare occasion in a week or two.
But then one day I had enough. I wanted to quit - real bad. So I
started to pray. I prayed every day all the way to the office and
all the way home, for God to show me a way to stop smoking. Well,
one day I had decided to quit again. This meant I just didn't buy
cigarettes that day. Instead, when I felt like a smoke, I just
grubbed one from one of the other guys in the office. Well, I had
just had lunch, and walking back into the office, one of the
other guys was coming out with a smoke in his mouth. I asked for
one, and he stopped to talk with me for a minute.
"Trying to quit again, huh?"
"Yeah."
"There was only one way I was ever able to."
"What was that?"
"Really do it!"
"What?"
"Decide you're really quitting. I quit for 3 years one time just
by
deciding I was just going to quit - period."
"Oh!" I said. I handed him back the not-yet-lit cigarette. "That
was what I was looking for."
It has been five years since I quit smoking. It was the hardest
thing I ever did in my life. I used to lie awake all night in
anxiety over it. I still wake up late at night in a cold sweat
dreaming of having a smoke. But I haven't had so much as a puff -
not even a Bill Clinton no-inhale-puff - since that day. And
there were only three things that worked in the end.
1) I had to want to change real badly.
2) I asked God to show me how to give it up.
and
3) When he spoke to me, I listened and obeyed.
I know there are people who think they have a tendancy to be gay
- and it isn't something they choose. But they need to start by
wanting to change, asking the Lord for help, and then listening
when He calls. Denying it is sin doesn't work I've tried that
many times. The only way out of sinful existence is to put a
stake in the ground and make the change.
philo wrote:
>
> Us...@NorthNet.org wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry but noone is born Gay or homosexual,the bible clearly explains
> > why men become homosexuals,and you did not even begin to realize your
> > homosexual tendancies if you are homosexual until some time after your
> > 5th birthday,if your life could be examined you had at some point a
> > rebellious nature which is the root of homosexual conduct,so to state
> > that a person is Gay and Christian is contradictory at
> > best,homosexuality is a mark of rebelliousness ,lets face if folks its
> > just sex,if you have the urge to perform it ,why not with a woman. they
> > have the essential natural equipment. its not a matter of birth,its a
> > matter of selection,man or woman? and homosexuals select men,not women
> > for their partner, which is wrong and not christian.
>
> ENOUGH ALREADY ... as a Christian pastor I apologize for the
> funny-mentalist LIE that homos are not BORN gay. This is the basic
> premise from which they MUST start in order to prove their foregone
> conclusion that homos are evil people who WILLFULLY SELECTED GAYSEX out
> of defiance to God because they want what they want. The if above
> writer is a HETEROSEXUAL then he/she CANNOT K-N-O-W that which they
> assert ... they can only theorize. Because homosexuals are a despised
> and oppressed minority ... and because Jesus was a friend to oppressed
> people ... I am their friend too.
>
> I ASK HOMOSEXUALS to respond to my post by honestly telling the world of
> their first awareness of their sexual orientation ... was it a
> DISCOVERY, or was it a SELECTION??
> The Bible-Babblers are pretending to know everything about everybody,
> especially people they do not know and do not want to know. If they
> will not believe the testimony of homosexuals about their own sexuality,
> it is time that we find that out and put this thing to rest once and for
> all!!! I cannot stand ANY person who lies, especially a Christian who
> lies. PHILO
--
With deep humility, and overwhelming thankfulness
for all the gifts that we have been given
In Jesus Christ,
John W. Hosie III
<*)))><
http://www.maranatha.net/hosie (My family pages)(under
Construction)
http://www.pkdc.org (National Capital Area Men of
Integrity)
http://www.maranatha.net (My ISP - Contains Good Christian
Links)
http://paul.spu.edu/~dsumner/veggie/index.html (Veggie Tales!
Yeah!)
bor...@ptialaska.net
In article <35335D...@werewolf.net>,
ph...@werewolf.net wrote:
>
> Border wrote:
> >
> > The point is entirely missed. How or why a person becomes gay is not
important.
> > Ignoring the scripture that condemns homosexual acts, and justifying it
through
> > other scripture, is a lie. Not only to others but to ones self too.
>
> Bord ...
>
> How kind of you to proclaim the un-importance of information which
> affects other
> people's lives with civil and religious persecution! You are all
> heart!!
Phi......
Whose affected lives are you talking about? Gay or straight? What difference
does it really make. As a gay, what difference would it make if it is a
choice, gene, or whatever? Would I need to know to justify it? Why waste space
arguing the finer points of the infinite possibilities of "why"? As a
straight, it should make absolutely no difference.
> I do not speak for any other than myself when I say that I make no
> attempt to
> justify homosexual activity by Scripture. That is wishful thinking on
> your part
> for then you could just dismiss an intelligent discussion of the matter
> with a
> sweep of the hand by simply labeling it a LIE.
Sorry, it's not in me to debate on meaningless points, intelligent or other
wise. You may not justify it, but there are those that do and the sad thing is
that it keeps them from God's grace.
> I want you to wrestle with this problem ... I want you to agonize over
> it ... I
> want you to lose sleep over it knowing that you are talking about real
> people
> rather than a theoretical math problem. Jesus wants you to be T-W-C!
> ... PHILO
Phi.....
Believe me I won't lose any sleep. I do know what I am talking about and I do
know the subject is about real people. I have pictures of faces of people I
know when I post on this subject. And they were some of the nicest people I
have know. But the fact remains that the real choice to be made of a gay or
straight person who truly wants to live in Christ, is to turn away from sin.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
zoe wilfong
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, philo wrote:
> zoe wilfong wrote:
>
> > I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> > nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> > the case within the gay community. More importantly, it simply doesn't
> > matter whether it is a choice or not. If being gay is wrong, then being
> > born that way does not make it right. On the other hand, if being gay is
> > not wrong, then 'choosing' to be gay is also not wrong. Since *there is
> > nothing wrong with being gay* it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or
> > not. *Either way* it is still *not wrong.* The whole choice issue is
> > just a dodge, which unfortunately a lot of gay people have been sucked
> > into.
> >
> Zoe ...
>
> I understand where you are coming from ... but please hear me out. The
> reason I bring
> up the matter of CHOICE/NON-CHOICE is that right-wing christians insist
> that since
> gays have chosen to be gay then they could just un-choose to be gay.
> Like Nancy Reagan
> said about taking drugs ... "Just say NO."
>
> My research in talking with gay people convinces me that being
> homosexual was not a
> matter of choice, but a pre-natal disposition that just does not go away
> and does not
> have closure by just saying "NO" to it. More importantly, with an
> involuntary condition calls for the mitigation of culpability ... and
> that calls for GRACE in assessing
> punishment. I know that this does not satisfy you completely, but it is
> the softest
> edge I can put on the problem.
I understand what you're getting at, but until a rock-solid proof of a
'gay gene' is found, there is no way christians are going to admit that
it is innate. And even if a 'gay gene' is found, they will still
say it's wrong anyway. Frankly, I think many of them already know the
*orientation* is genetic, but they simply say that a gay person must not
act on this orientation. Thus, the 'choice' angle is somewhat a waste
of time, since, it's a no win situation. That's why I choose to focus
on demonstrating that there is *nothing wrong with homosexuality,*
regardless of whether it is a choice or not. However, as I mentioned,
there seems to be broad agreement among homosexuals that the orientation
is innate, or is caused by some factors that are so subtle, unidentifiable,
and unpredictable as to beyond the person's control.
zoe
zoe wilfong
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Todd wrote:
> zoe wilfong wrote:
>
> > I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> > nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> > the case within the gay community.
>
> Then where did the term "alternate lifestyle" come from? That was
> something you heard a lot before the discovery of the so called "gay
> gene"
> Now, no one says it. It's been replaced with "I was born that way"
>
The term 'alternate lifestyle' does not actually address whether it is a
choice or not, and I'm about positive that it was the anti-gays who came
up with that term as they believe that one's 'lifestyle' is determined by
his/her *sex-style.* It is true that the gay sex-style is an 'alternate' to
the heterosexual one, but that does not imply anything about choice.
zoe
zoe wilfong
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, John Hosie wrote:
> Philo,
> I've read several consecutive posts here by you. I see that you
> are torn by the fact that people's feelings are hurt here. I
> understand that it is painful for many people. Sometimes pain is
> caused by others. Sometimes it is brought on by ourselves - by
> denying we are the ones with a problem.
>
> I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
> the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
> seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
(snip)
Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
zoe
John Hosie
Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
zoe wilfong wrote:
> (snip)
>
> Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
> choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
>
> zoe
--
Dolf
A follower in Christ will show regard for others as themself. In what way
does being a homosexual violate this principle?
Dolf Boek
Border wrote in message <35331EAC...@ptialaska.net>...
> The bible defines a follower in Christ. To practice homosexuality is to
rebel
>against Christ.
phil
>philo wrote:
> Thanks, Dolf ...
> Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can >honestly
> say whether or not people are BORN GAY. I am tired of right-wingers
> making categorical statements about which they know nothing as if they
> are incontrovertable FACTS. Christians must be HONEST if they are to >be
> believed. PHILO
This is exactly the kind of response i had been waiting for,because if
then you admit that you did not choose homosexuality that it was an
integrated part of you,then homosexuals will also have to admit then
there is no such thing as freewill.
You homosexuals must accept as well that GOD designed and created you to
become homosexuals,even though it is wrong and against GOD he created
you for that purpose,to be against him. You cannot change that by your
own will,if you could as you have already admitted you not be
homosexual. Even though you were created to become homosexual you cannot
expect GOD to accept your desire to worship him,it is not acceptable,and
he will not,he created you to not be accepted ,you just have to come to
grips with what you were created to be,if GOD does not take that from
you,you are destined not to be a christian.
Paul Duca
John Hosie wrote:
>
> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
>
> zoe wilfong wrote:
> > (snip)
> >
> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
And if she does, I hope it's for a VERY rich man...I mean, what lesbian
wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just because God
says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
Paul
Kirk A Heck
zoe wilfong wrote in message ...
>
>
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, John Hosie wrote:
>
>> Philo,
>> I've read several consecutive posts here by you. I see that you
>> are torn by the fact that people's feelings are hurt here. I
>> understand that it is painful for many people. Sometimes pain is
>> caused by others. Sometimes it is brought on by ourselves - by
>> denying we are the ones with a problem.
>>
>> I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
>> the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
>> seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
@@First Philo i agree that it is possible that alcoholism is a genetic trait
and all the males in my family before me were alcoholics. I drink a beer
every once in awhile but that doesn't make me an alcoholic does it.
Therefore even if genetic traits are linked, it is up to the individual to
make that choice. Could i have been an alcoholic? Possibly at one time but
then again this is where discipline and choice override genetic traits. We
all have the opportunity to make the right choices.
>
>(snip)
>
>Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
>the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
>choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
>christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
>
>zoe
@@ Again this Zoe is your perception. First it is against my beliefs as a
Christian to begin with. Second it does cause enormous damage to family
structures especially childrens perception of what they see with there eyes.
Should we as Christians love the homosexual as a person? Yes Should we
preach it as an acceptable lifestyle and endorse it to the children? No This
is the problem with our society and that anymore nobody is willing to draw
the line. Knowing that you are a gay athiest you will not even consider
God's will as the rightous way of life. For that i feel great sorrow. You
can't understand that sorrow because you don't know your fate.
@@ As far as the subject Bible guidlines for gay sex standards? There are
none. There have been so many post trying to justify gay sexual
relationships and have not yet came close to identifying scripture that
accepts this type of relationship. I still cannot see why contiuous posts
trying to preach the acceptance of homosexuality to a Christian bible group
continue to show up here in this group. Show me one piece of scripture that
shows homosexuality in the Bible in the OT or NT that supports it as an
acceptable practice? Read Romans 1-27:32 specifically paying attention to
verse 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such
things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them
that do them. These passages not only define sin but show blatant disrespect
for the will of God.
Your friend in Christ,
Kirk A. Heck
"To reply remove ns from my addy"
Visit my web site at www.bright.net/~thehecks/fbvw
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister
In article <35340D5F...@maranatha.net>,
John Hosie <ho...@maranatha.net> wrote:
>Philo,
>I've read several consecutive posts here by you. I see that you
>are torn by the fact that people's feelings are hurt here. I
>understand that it is painful for many people. Sometimes pain is
>caused by others. Sometimes it is brought on by ourselves - by
>denying we are the ones with a problem.
>
>I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
>the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
>seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
>But to suggest that an individual doesn't make a choice to take a
>drink is folly. I've seen how it has destroyed families. It has
>caused unimaginable pain. But ignoring the fact that drinking to
>get drunk is sin because it may hurt someone's feelings is, at
>best, ignorant. At worst, it is condoning something that God's
>Word tells us is wrong.
You just can't get it can you?
Your religion is myth and fantasy based on a historical novel!
If you want top believe in things that can't be proven, fine, just
don't use it to go condemning people with your phoney false
definitions of sin and trashing their lives!
Get it now?
Kirk A Heck
Paul Duca wrote in message <3534FF...@tiac.net>...
>John Hosie wrote:
>>
>> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
>> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
>> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
>> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
>>
>> zoe wilfong wrote:
>> > (snip)
>> >
>> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
>> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is
a
>> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
>> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
>
>
> And if she does, I hope it's for a VERY rich man...I mean, what lesbian
>wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just because God
>says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
>
>Paul
God didn't say that you did Paul. Who says ministers are poor? They surely
are underpaid for the services they provide. Let me guess your sexual
orientation and faith? Gay and Athiest. That explains your reply. If correct
why are you in this group?
Kirk
Paul Duca
Kirk A Heck wrote:
>
> Paul Duca wrote in message <3534FF...@tiac.net>...
> >John Hosie wrote:
> >>
> >> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> >> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> >> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> >> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
> >>
> >> zoe wilfong wrote:
> >> > (snip)
> >> >
> >> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> >> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is
> a
> >> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> >> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
> >
> >
> > And if she does, I hope it's for a VERY rich man...I mean, what lesbian
> >wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just because God
> >says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
> >
> >Paul
>
> God didn't say that you did Paul.
Who says ministers are poor? They surely
> are underpaid for the services they provide.
Unless they skim something off the top of the collection plate, of
course.
Let me guess your sexual
> orientation and faith? Gay and Athiest. That explains your reply. If correct
> why are you in this group?
Nope and nope...I'm here because it's FUN to make smart-ass remarks
that get self-important people like you annoyed, during
your online search for a woman stupid enough to marry you.
Paul
zoe wilfong
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, John Hosie wrote:
> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
>
> zoe wilfong wrote:
> > (snip)
> >
> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
> >
You thought that was anger? ha ha ha You brilliantly *asserted*
that your analogies were correct, but did not even attempt to
substantiate your claim. Surely you don't want to leave us with the
impression that you *don't have* any evidence? Why don't you explain
exactly how homosexuality is harmful to the individual or society.
Please conform your responses to reasons which you would apply equally to
*any and all* other groups of society, i.e. if you are going to claim
that homosexuality is wrong because the human race would die out, then
you must claim that natural sterility and choosing to remain childless
are equally wrong. In other words, if you have *real* reasons why
homosexuality is harmful to the individual or society, you will not
apply these hypocritically and inconsistently only to homosexuals.
zoe
zoe wilfong
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Paul Duca wrote:
> John Hosie wrote:
> >
> > Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> > is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> > rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> > me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
> >
> > zoe wilfong wrote:
> > > (snip)
> > >
> > > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> > > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
> > > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> > > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
>
>
> And if she does, I hope it's for a VERY rich man...I mean, what lesbian
> wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just because God
> says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
>
> Paul
>
Ha ha. I'm starting to like you, Paul.
zoe
>
Harry A. Smith
Todd wrote:
> Interesting point. But why is it that around 15 years ago or so
> homosexuals claimed it was a choice?
> It wasn't until the discovery of the so called "gay gene" that we
> started to hear that they were born that way.
> Now, if homosexuals "themselves be the ones who can honestly
> say whether or not people are BORN GAY," why didn't they all know this
> not so many years ago eh? Seems to me if they are the best ones to know,
> it wouldn't have taken someone ELSE finding a "gay gene" for them to
> figure it out.
Ok Todd, cite your sources for this. I have been following the
biological literature on this since 1984, and I have *never* seen any
major claims by the homosexual communiy that it is a choice. In fact,
nearly all of the studies I have seen indicate that gay men report same
sex attraction from an early age even predating a clear understanding of
sexuality otself! Here is the bottom line - it is not a choice. Just as
my heterosexuality was not a choice (I was attracted to girls since I
was at least 4), neither is same-sex attraction. What is really
irritating is the insistence of some on this newsgroup to simply ignore
the biologocal findings so thy can cling to a belief system about choice
that can no longer be supported. That is not the way to truth and is not
the way to understanding God. It is clear that this insistence on
"choice" isbecause giving this up will take away the ability to use
Scriptural passages that speak of one giving up the natural relations of
a man for a woman etc for unnatural relations. The passages so often
quoted here condemn the act of same-sex in terms of it being a choice
made of one's own free will and accord. If indeed same sex attraction is
not a choice, then the scriptural passages used as proof texts become
quite problematical. This is a situation a literalist just can not
simply abide, for they have been utterly brainwashed that if any of
their interpretations of scripture fall then their entire belief system
must also fall. Clearly a theology that cannot accomodate understanding
of the natural world can not stand up to advances of knowledge. Such was
the fate of geocentric and creationary theologies of the past which
engendered such acrimonious debate but are now relegated to the
wasteheap of poor Biblical scholorship and misunderstanding of the true
message of Scripture! One day people will scratch their heads wondering
why such debates of these ever happened in the first place!
--
** Dare To Disturb The Universe! **
Rev. Harry A. Smith, D.D.
has...@nettally.com
zoe wilfong
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Kirk A Heck wrote:
>
> zoe wilfong wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> >Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not harmful to
> >the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not whether it is a
> >choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular sect of
> >christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
> >
> >zoe
> @@ Again this Zoe is your perception. First it is against my beliefs as a
> Christian to begin with.
Fine; don't be gay. I am not a christian; therefore I am not bound by
your personal religious beliefs. Get it?
Second it does cause enormous damage to family
> structures especially childrens perception of what they see with there eyes.
Flip it. Your children should not be exposed to YOU. You are a danger
to society. Your religious practices breed nothing but hostility and
dischord between people all over the planet. Christians must be forced
into invisibility/nonexistance to protect the rights and lives of all the
rest of us. See how easy it is to turn that around?
> Should we as Christians love the homosexual as a person? Yes Should we
> preach it as an acceptable lifestyle and endorse it to the children? No This
> is the problem with our society and that anymore nobody is willing to draw
> the line.
Oh, people draw lines all over the place. And then they try to force
others to recognize that theirs is the one true line.
Please see my previous post on this thread and try to conform your next
pathetic attempt to justify your prejudice to some basic rules of logic
and consistancy.
zoe
Harry A. Smith
John Hosie wrote:
>
> I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
> the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
> seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
> But to suggest that an individual doesn't make a choice to take a
> drink is folly. I've seen how it has destroyed families. It has
> caused unimaginable pain. But ignoring the fact that drinking to
> get drunk is sin because it may hurt someone's feelings is, at
> best, ignorant. At worst, it is condoning something that God's
> Word tells us is wrong.
Let us put some perspective on this. One is born an alcoholic because of
alterations of brain physiology which causes one to be addicted to
alcohol or its by products. One is an alcohlic whether or not one *ever*
drinks alcohol. What is really at issue is whether one abuses alcohol or
not. Yes one has a choice to drink, but one does not have a choice as to
being an alcoholic or not. Bot alcoholics and nonalcoholics can abuse
alcohol to the detriment of themselves and others. In the same way, one
can commit sexual sins of lust whether one is heterosexual or
homosexual. And in the same way one may not. Drinking to get drunk is a
sin because the action winds up hurting others and is therefore not in
the spirit of Christ's commands that we love one another. But drinking
by itself is *not* a sin whether it is done by an alcoholic or
nonalcoholic. By this analogy, same sex behaviour in a monogamous
committed, loving, and caring relationship in which no harm comes to
either pary hrough destructive practices becomes quite problematical in
terms of ascribing sinfullness.
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke!
In article <3534A7BB...@maranatha.net>,
John Hosie <ho...@maranatha.net> wrote:
>Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
>is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
>rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
>me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
Maybe some day you will wake up to the fact that your hate religion
is evil!
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke!
In article <3534BC...@mailexcite.com>,>> Justice demands that homosexuals themselves be the ones who can
>honestly
Does anyone have any fucking idea what this twit just said? Does he?
Astalis
Melissa, The Pure, Sweet And Innocent! wrote:
> In article <35331EAC...@ptialaska.net>,
> Border <bor...@ptialaska.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Mycroft;-) wrote:
> >
> >> . Christianity
> >> is vastly more profound and meaningful than you would make of it.
> And you do
> >> not have the right to define who can and cannot be a follower of
> Christ.
> >> Mycroft
> >
> > The bible defines a follower in Christ.
>
> And the bible is a book of myths, why not admit it?
>
> > To practice homosexuality is to rebel
> >against Christ.
>
> More myths and lies from your hate religion!
It seems from your posts you know more
regarding how to hate...
Astalis
--
"Love is like a river flowing down from
the Giver of Life. We drink from the water
And our thirst is no longer denied. You
gotta give it away...
As we live, moving side by side,
may we learn to give, learn to sacrifice."
**From Michael W. Smith's "Give It Away"**
-----------------------
astalis at epsi dot net
-----------------------
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke!
In article <3534FF...@tiac.net>,
Paul Duca <toms...@tiac.net> wrote:
>John Hosie wrote:
>>
>> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
>> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
>> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
>> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
>>
>> > (snip)
>> >
>> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not
harmful to
>> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not
whether it is a
>> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular
sect of
>> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
>
>
what lesbian
>wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just
because God
>says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
Shit, I wouldn't care if Hercules ( that guy who plays him
with Xena ) himself with all his millions came up and said he wanted
to marry me, I STILL ain't interested in men!
Guess that says something about orientation, eh?
Now if Xena wanted me.... heh, heh...
Mother Melissa Of The Immaculate Virgin Assumption!
In article <353586...@nettally.com>,
"Harry A. Smith" <has...@nettally.com> wrote:
>John Hosie wrote:
>>
>
>> I want you to consider another type of situation. Lets consider
>> the alcoholic. It is a "medically proven" fact that alcoholism
>> seems to run in families. It very well may be a genetic trait.
>> But to suggest that an individual doesn't make a choice to take a
>> drink is folly. I've seen how it has destroyed families. It has
>> caused unimaginable pain. But ignoring the fact that drinking to
>> get drunk is sin because it may hurt someone's feelings is, at
>> best, ignorant. At worst, it is condoning something that God's
>> Word tells us is wrong.
>
>
The bottom line is it's still no one else's damned business!
Quit waging war against gays!
Rihannsu Alien !
the garbage that spewed forth from "Melissa's" keyboard was completely
ignore-- too bad , Mel-- no audience, AGAIN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Relentlessly pursuing the SPAMmish Inquisition !!
Help stamp out spam and sleaze.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rihannsu Alien !
oh, dear---- something must have happened--- there's nothing here to
reply to---- sorry ------
Rihannsu Alien !
> Christians must be forced into invisibility/nonexistance to protect the rights >and lives of all the rest of us. See how easy it is to turn that around?
that people who ofended him for any real or imagined reason
were"declared to be in a state of non-existence"....... really bright
that one-----
He also used to make his followers wear a dirty gray rag around their
left arm if they were in his bad books and considered "fair-game" to
be cheated, lied to, tricked, abused, sued, harrassed, whatever-----
you make yourself sound like a SLYentologist.... perhaps you are????
>Oh, people draw lines all over the place. And then they try to force
>others to recognize that theirs is the one true line.
now you osound like an RC----which is it ????
Paul Duca
Astalis wrote:
>
>
> --
> "Love is like a river flowing down from
> the Giver of Life. We drink from the water
> And our thirst is no longer denied. You
> gotta give it away...
>
> As we live, moving side by side,
> may we learn to give, learn to sacrifice."
>
> **From Michael W. Smith's "Give It Away"**
>
At least he's not the one who knocked up the married gospel
singer...HE'S the one who looked like Richard Marx at the time of his
crossover pop hit, and like Kurt Cobain on a Billy Graham special
recently.
Paul
Astalis
Paul Duca wrote:
He's still cute! Still...wish Smitty hadn't of cut is hair so
short... :-)
Astalis
--
"Love is like a river flowing down from
the Giver of Life. We drink from the water
And our thirst is no longer denied. You
gotta give it away...
As we live, moving side by side,
may we learn to give, learn to sacrifice."
**From Michael W. Smith's "Give It Away"**
-----------------------
Melissa, Of The One True God!
In article <3536574e...@news.vianet.on.ca>,
figure...@ice.net (Rihannsu Alien !) wrote:
>the garbage that spewed forth from "Melissa's" keyboard was
completely
>ignore-- too bad , Mel-- no audience, AGAIN.
>
>Relentlessly pursuing the SPAMmish Inquisition !!
>Help stamp out spam and sleaze.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quit spamming this crap, Jack Shit!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
Melissa, Of The One True God!
In article <3536574e...@news.vianet.on.ca>,
figure...@ice.net (Rihannsu Alien !) wrote:
>the garbage that spewed forth from "Melissa's" keyboard was
completely
>ignore-- too bad , Mel-- no audience, AGAIN.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Relentlessly pursuing the SPAMmish Inquisition !!
>Help stamp out spam and sleaze.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey! By kill filing you, I won't have to see YOUR spam!
M. Kearns
and I wonder if these Christians would be the first to take other methods
(i.e. euthanasia, abortion) to rid their lives of the so-called
abomination before it begins-that is, if homosexuality is proven to be
genetic...
Megan Kearns
University of Washington
Middle Eastern Studies
****************************************
Contra la Verdad no hay Fuerza
****************************************
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, zoe wilfong wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, philo wrote:
>
> > zoe wilfong wrote:
> >
> > > I have been gay for over 15 years and I never felt that it was a choice,
> > > nor am I aware that there was ever any widespread belief that this was
> > > the case within the gay community. More importantly, it simply doesn't
> > > matter whether it is a choice or not. If being gay is wrong, then being
> > > born that way does not make it right. On the other hand, if being gay is
> > > not wrong, then 'choosing' to be gay is also not wrong. Since *there is
> > > nothing wrong with being gay* it doesn't matter whether it is a choice or
> > > not. *Either way* it is still *not wrong.* The whole choice issue is
> > > just a dodge, which unfortunately a lot of gay people have been sucked
> > > into.
> > >
> > Zoe ...
> >
> > I understand where you are coming from ... but please hear me out. The
> > reason I bring
> > up the matter of CHOICE/NON-CHOICE is that right-wing christians insist
> > that since
> > gays have chosen to be gay then they could just un-choose to be gay.
> > Like Nancy Reagan
> > said about taking drugs ... "Just say NO."
> >
> > My research in talking with gay people convinces me that being
> > homosexual was not a
> > matter of choice, but a pre-natal disposition that just does not go away
> > and does not
> > have closure by just saying "NO" to it. More importantly, with an
> > involuntary condition calls for the mitigation of culpability ... and
> > that calls for GRACE in assessing
> > punishment. I know that this does not satisfy you completely, but it is
> > the softest
> > edge I can put on the problem.
>
> I understand what you're getting at, but until a rock-solid proof of a
> 'gay gene' is found, there is no way christians are going to admit that
> it is innate. And even if a 'gay gene' is found, they will still
> say it's wrong anyway. Frankly, I think many of them already know the
> *orientation* is genetic, but they simply say that a gay person must not
> act on this orientation. Thus, the 'choice' angle is somewhat a waste
> of time, since, it's a no win situation. That's why I choose to focus
> on demonstrating that there is *nothing wrong with homosexuality,*
> regardless of whether it is a choice or not. However, as I mentioned,
> there seems to be broad agreement among homosexuals that the orientation
> is innate, or is caused by some factors that are so subtle, unidentifiable,
> and unpredictable as to beyond the person's control.
>
> zoe
>
>
Jim Upchurch
That is a pretty wild question Megan. Abortion and euthenatia
is not supported in the Christian community.
I'll flip the question around for you. How about if we can show a genetic
propensity towards violence against women. Or child molestation ? Or
polluting the environment ? Conservatism? How about Homophobitis, where
we are born with the inate feeling that homosexuality is wrong.
If you really want to play the gene game, the genie will be out of the
bottle
and nobody will be responsible for anything.
--
Jim Upchurch
remove "x" in rango to reply
M. Kearns wrote in message ...
zoe wilfong
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Jim Upchurch wrote:
> That is a pretty wild question Megan. Abortion and euthenatia
> is not supported in the Christian community.
>
> I'll flip the question around for you. How about if we can show a genetic
> propensity towards violence against women. Or child molestation ? Or
FYI, jim, the flaw in your analogy stems from the fact that homosexuality
is NOT WRONG, therefore it matters not whether it is genetic, choice, or
something else. You are getting a bit ahead of yourself. Why don't you
try to construct a legitimate case showing that homosexuality is harmful
to individuals or society. And please make sure that you would apply
these reasons equally to all other population groups.
zoe
Jim Upchurch
That will be quite easy zoe. First of all I have always approached this
from a Biblical perspective. Do you realize that is is a Christian newsgroup
?
Could you please put two and two together.
Is homosexualality harmfull to society or individuals ? ABSOLUTELY to
both. Not only to we have the spiritual ramifications, but the breakup
of the family structure is very harmful indeed. That seems to be a major
cause of violence, drug use, etc. Divorce and casual relationships are
taking their toll on society. Having an alternative lifestyle is only going
to erode
that family unit ( male + female ) further.
As far as health goes, I believe you will find ( you'll need your calculator
again ) that homosexuals ( mostly males ) have a much reduced lifespan and
high
incidence of aids. I have heard that the average lifespan is 42 years of age
on average for male homosexuals. Even if this number was off by 10% it
would be alarming.
--
Jim Upchurch
remove "x" in rango to reply
zoe wilfong wrote in message ...
>
>
Tonguemaster
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
My heart is yours.
Tonguemaster
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke! wrote:
> In article <3534A7BB...@maranatha.net>,
> John Hosie <ho...@maranatha.net> wrote:
> >Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> >is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> >rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> >me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
>
> Maybe some day you will wake up to the fact that your hate religion
> is evil!
>
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
My body is yours, do what you want with it.
Tonguemaster
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke! wrote:
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
Teach me to be like you. Togather we could be one.
Tonguemaster
Melissa, Jesus H Christ's Big Sister Dyke! wrote:
> In article <3534FF...@tiac.net>,
> Paul Duca <toms...@tiac.net> wrote:
> >John Hosie wrote:
> >>
> >> Your anger tells me I hit a sore spot. The analogy holds true. It
> >> is the fact that it rings true that bothers you. The fact that it
> >> rings true to you - in spite of your emotional reaction - tells
> >> me you have a chance. Maybe someday you will wake up.
> >>
> >> zoe wilfong wrote:
> >> > (snip)
> >> >
> >> > Your analogies were *all* wrong because homosexuality is not
> harmful to
> >> > the individual or to society. Therefore, it matters not
> whether it is a
> >> > choice. And those of us who are not members of your particular
> sect of
> >> > christiany are not bound by your personal religious beliefs.
> >
> >
> > And if she does, I hope it's for a VERY rich man...I mean,
> what lesbian
> >wants to convert to some piss-poor guy like a minister, just
> because God
> >says she'll be happier with a penis between her legs.
>
> Shit, I wouldn't care if Hercules ( that guy who plays him
> with Xena ) himself with all his millions came up and said he wanted
> to marry me, I STILL ain't interested in men!
>
> Guess that says something about orientation, eh?
>
> Now if Xena wanted me.... heh, heh...
>
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Think yours is a loving religion? See the truth revealed in all it's glory:
> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
I might be a redneck, but you can mold me. Please honey.
Tonguemaster
Melissa, Of The One True God! wrote:
> In article <3536574e...@news.vianet.on.ca>,
> figure...@ice.net (Rihannsu Alien !) wrote:
> >the garbage that spewed forth from "Melissa's" keyboard was
> completely
> >ignore-- too bad , Mel-- no audience, AGAIN.
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Relentlessly pursuing the SPAMmish Inquisition !!
> >Help stamp out spam and sleaze.
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Hey! By kill filing you, I won't have to see YOUR spam!
>
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
> I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
When you flame I burn.
Tonguemaster
Melissa, Of The One True God! wrote:
> In article <3536574e...@news.vianet.on.ca>,
> figure...@ice.net (Rihannsu Alien !) wrote:
> >the garbage that spewed forth from "Melissa's" keyboard was
> completely
> >ignore-- too bad , Mel-- no audience, AGAIN.
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Relentlessly pursuing the SPAMmish Inquisition !!
> >Help stamp out spam and sleaze.
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Quit spamming this crap, Jack Shit!
>
> Of course that's just my opinion.
> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>
> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>
> Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
> I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
>
> My posting to Usenet does not imply permission, or a request, to email me,
> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile, harassing,
> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and result in
> complaints to your provider.
I'm waiting my darling.
Melissa, Jesus H Bungholio's Big Sister
In article <353D0394...@tempting.com>,
>> Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
>>
>> Melissa My web pages: under construction
>>
it's glory:
>> http://www.christiangallery.com/strategy.html
>> http://www.godhatesfags.com/faq.html
>> http://revwhite.bestsites.net
>> http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
>>
>>
email me,
>> though kind supportive comments are always welcome. Hostile,
harassing,
>> religious harassment and/or abusive email may be posted and
result in
>> complaints to your provider.
>
My killfile is yours! Plonk!
Of course that's just my opinion.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. :-)
Melissa My web pages: under construction
Thank God I'm not a xtian! God save me from xtianity!
I don't hate xtians, I hate the evil nature of xtianity.
"Yo quiero Taco Bell!"
"A Taco revolution! I am there!" - Taco Bell dog