8th kyu
ABall
I just wanted to say I MADE 8th KYU I AM SO HAPPY!
ps: visit my (happy) page at http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/3102
ABall
8th kyu is the second belt after white. It's the yellow one!
(I hope it's ok Rob, if I can call you rob)
I've heard of an other ranking sytem what is it?(not white, yellow, orange,
green...)
Matt Gomes
ABall wrote:
Color is really up to the dojo you're at. At my dojo, 8th is second-degree
blue.
My belief is that colors were made up for our Western society. I don't think
most of us would continue on if there wasn't a challenge to get to the "next
level". I don't think *I* would be motivated. That's just the kind of person
I am. Goal oriented...
My 2 cents...
-Matt
Shodan, FSKA
Coofool
mine is white purple green red and then black
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <34ad036f...@news.mindspring.com>, bigl...@mindspring.com wrote:
>Re: 8th kyu
>Author: Matt Gomes <mag...@jps.net>
>Newsgroup: alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan
>Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:27:34 -0800
>
># My belief is that colors were made up for our Western society.
>
>They were created by Judo's founder, Kano Jigoro. Funakoshi borrowed
>the idea in the 1920's.
Hmmm. Is there a 'standard' JKA or other Shotokan formality regarding belt
colors? It seems to me that there is not and this makes it vague and
ambiguous.
Personally I like a greater quantity of belts. For me this gives me more short
term goals and breaks down the achievement into more manageable sizes.
Like any tasks you undertake, the ability to break it into smaller more
manageable pieces makes it seem less daunting.
If I look at something and see that it will require 100 activities to achieve
the goal, it sometimes seems overwhelming. But, if I see that these 100
activities are broken into 10 sets of 10 activities, I will focus on the first
set of 10, then the next set of 10, etc.
This is what Henry Ford did with the mass production line of cars. Breaking
everything into components and then bring it all together. Maybe it is a bad
analogy, but if I can focus on a short term goal which gets me to a long term
goal, I am more productive and effective.
My son is 5 years old, and kids learn better this way too. If you give them a
lot of things to do, they get overwhelmed and don't get anything done. If
you break it down into only a few things at a time, they get it done. He looks
forward to his next belt and knows that there are not a ton of things he has
to do. He is able to focus on the smaller list of things and is more readily
able to attain his goal.
Regards,
Steve.
// Steven K. Shapiro @ SKS Computer Consulting, Inc.
// All Opinions May Or May Not Be My Own
// eMail > sks...@universe.digex.net
// WWW HomePage > http://www.universe.digex.net/~skscci/
Shawn
>Personally I like a greater quantity of belts. For me this gives me more short
>term goals and breaks down the achievement into more manageable sizes.
I agree with the belt system, to a certain extent. Maybe little kids
need more short term goals... thus the stripe system... I never found
that I was feeling 'bored' or losing interest. The belt didn't mean
as much as the skills to me.
I personally think they/we/everyone should abolish the dan system.
Give one belt for Black, and that's it. You would then be 'ranked' by
ability alone. You don't need someone else to tell you where you are,
you know.
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
George Winter
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:53:25 -0500, bigl...@mindspring.com (Rob
Redmond) wrote:
>Re: 8th kyu ^v^
>Author: skscci*deletethis*@universe.digex.net (Steven K. Shapiro)
>Newsgroup: alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan
>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 15:15:35 GMT
>
># My son is 5 years old, and kids learn better this way too.
>
>Surely you would not let a child this young start karate training!
I would. 5-7. Same as kiddie-soccer, t-ball, or other jr sports. I
think the focus has to be on giving them a flavor of the activity
rather than serious karate training. We have a kiddie class (I am not
sure about 5, but 6 & 7 year olds). They seem to have a good time &
they do a passable imitation of karate.
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Todd D. Ellner
In article <3495BCD6...@jps.net>, Matt Gomes <mag...@jps.net> wrote:
>My belief is that colors were made up for our Western society.
Nope. Wrong. Uh-uh. No.
Kano Jigoro, the founder of Judo, devised the colored belt system, the
kyu/dan gradings, and the gi.
Before Judo people practiced martial arts in (more or less) their regular
clothes. Rank was recognized by the granting of teaching certificates,
and there were no colored (or black) sashes. By the time Funakoshi came to
Japan Kano's innovations had been accepted by the education establishment.
--
Todd Ellner | No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)557-1572 |
Todd D. Ellner
Rob Redmond <bigl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Author: skscci*deletethis*@universe.digex.net (Steven K. Shapiro)
>Surely you would not let a child this young start karate training!
I've got to agree with Rob on this one. FIve is a tad young to start
martial arts. But particularly striking styles. Bones that young are
not calcified and can be permanently damaged by even moderate impact
of the sort we see in karate. Particularly wrists and ankles.
Steven K. Shapiro
># My son is 5 years old, and kids learn better this way too.
>
>Surely you would not let a child this young start karate training!
Don't call me Shirley! 8-)
He started about a month after his fifth birthday. The training is
age-appropriate as is the skill level. His class is comprised of 5-7 year olds
and they are doing quite well. There is no sparring and the contact between
the kids is severly limited.
My daughter started gymnastics at age 5 and now at age 7 she is just amazing.
She loves her gymnastics just as he loves his karate. Its what they want. I am
not pushing them into something or forcing them to do it. I am supporting them
in their desires and making sure that it is at their level of ability.
I see nothing wrong if the training, whether it is karate, gymnastics,
baseball, football, basketball, swimming, etc. is age-appropriate and taught
to the skill level of the child.
Malcolm Diamond
In article <3497df96....@snews.zippo.com>, George Winter
<gwi...@q-sys.com> writes
>>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 97 15:15:35 GMT
>>
>>
>>Surely you would not let a child this young start karate training!
>
>think the focus has to be on giving them a flavor of the activity
>rather than serious karate training. We have a kiddie class (I am not
>sure about 5, but 6 & 7 year olds). They seem to have a good time &
>they do a passable imitation of karate.
>
I agree ... but like a lot of other sport it depends on the individual
kid. The big question with kids of this age is can they concentrate on
what they are doing for upwards of an hour?. If they can, then they
should be able to take an active part in a lesson and get something from
it.
Allowances have to be made of course for their age, for example, they
wouldn't do pushups on their knuckles because of the effect it would
have on their developing skeletal system. Small allowances I know, but
essential nevertheless.
I do believe however, that their is a place in karate for kids as young
as 5.
Mal
=======================================================
Malcolm Diamond E-Mail M...@MalDiamond.demon.co.uk
Homepage at http://www.maldiamond.demon.co.uk/enska.htm
Webring at http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/temple/5747/
=======================================================
Shawn
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:23:04 GMT, gwi...@q-sys.com (George Winter)
wrote:
>I would. 5-7. Same as kiddie-soccer, t-ball, or other jr sports. I
>think the focus has to be on giving them a flavor of the activity
>rather than serious karate training. We have a kiddie class (I am not
>sure about 5, but 6 & 7 year olds). They seem to have a good time &
>they do a passable imitation of karate.
This is why I don't want to teach the kids in my school. Because I'm
not teaching them karate, but rather 'playing with them'. I don't
want to do it. I'm a selfish guy I guess...
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
George Winter
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:09:47 GMT, sjef...@No.Spam.direct.ca (Shawn)
wrote:
>This is why I don't want to teach the kids in my school. Because I'm
>not teaching them karate, but rather 'playing with them'. I don't
>want to do it. I'm a selfish guy I guess...
I don't know about selfish, but inflexible would be correct. You need
to teach kids slightly differently. One of the things that surprises
me about the kids class is that they put up with standard training so
well. They do the same boring techniques up & down the dojo as we do,
the same kata. There is no "mutant space ranger" katas or other
nonsense. There is no kumite, there is less emphasis on the technical
details. It is not really adult training, but it is not playing
karate. It is the best karate we think they can handle.
We have 2 12ish yr olds training with us in the adult class, they do
better than most.
George Winter
>
>I agree ... but like a lot of other sport it depends on the individual
>kid. The big question with kids of this age is can they concentrate on
>what they are doing for upwards of an hour?. If they can, then they
>should be able to take an active part in a lesson and get something from
>it.
We keep the kids separate & the class is 30 min long. I agree that a
60 or 90 min class would be too much for most.
Shawn
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:03:06 GMT, gwi...@q-sys.com (George Winter)
wrote:
>I don't know about selfish, but inflexible would be correct. You need
No, I really am selfish. :) Luckily there are others who will teach
the kids, and like doing it. I get frustrated with them, quite
easily. Which proves your point about me being inflexible.. It's my
nature I'm afraid.
>to teach kids slightly differently. One of the things that surprises
>me about the kids class is that they put up with standard training so
>well. They do the same boring techniques up & down the dojo as we do,
>the same kata. There is no "mutant space ranger" katas or other
>nonsense. There is no kumite, there is less emphasis on the technical
>details. It is not really adult training, but it is not playing
>karate. It is the best karate we think they can handle.
Nor in our club, but they learn at a slower pace than the older
students and their techniques aren't as crisp nor as accurate... I
find myself ignoring most of their 'mistakes' to keep things rolling.
>We have 2 12ish yr olds training with us in the adult class, they do
>better than most.
We have an 9 year old who is really good as well... But he is still a
9 year old and has to be taught that way.
I guess I've learned that I'm not a good 'kid' teacher. Which may
mean I'm not a good instructor for any age...
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <34a2cf1e...@news.mindspring.com>, bigl...@mindspring.com wrote:
>First of all, they will and *do* misuse it. A child that young has no
>sense of ethics. I watch the neighborhood kids playing "karate" with
>each other until the other gets hurt *everyday*.
Do any of you actually HAVE kids? I have 3. Ages 14, 7 and 5. I observe them
playing at school and in the neighborhood.
Kids will play 'karate' whether they have training or not. Kids will get hurt
no matter what you do. All you can do is hope to minimize it.
I believe that by teaching them the proper way to block, kick, punch, etc.
they gain more control over what they are doing and are thus less likely to
hurt others or get hurt themselves.
Plus, but taking classes it gives them a supervised and specific place in
which to do the karate. A place which is supervised by qualified instructors
who can teach them in ways they can be safe.
My kid is not allowed to use karate anyplace but in class. The punishment is
that he cannot go to class, a punishment that is too severe for him to violate
the rule.
>A kid can't do the right thing. They are kids. They cannot make
>simple decisions like "should I take a leak before I go on a trip in
>the car." But let's show them to punch!
No, but you can teach them to tell you that they have to go to the bathroom so
that they don't piss their pants when they do need to go.
You can also teach a kid that it is inappropriate to use karate outside the
dojo. You teach them that if someone is bothering them, they go get the
teacher / parent / adult supervisor rather than fighting.
If someone (another kid) takes a swing at my kid for no reason (and it
happens) at least he will know what to do (block) rather than just become a
target.
Plus, all kids under 13 MUST be supervised by an adult. You don't just let
them run wild. The adult is responsible to ensure appropriate behavior.
>2nd, if you do water down the class to 30 minutes, I fail to see the
>point of the training. This amount of training won't teach them
>"real" karate, and it won't have the training effect on them. So
>what's the point?
My kid can't throw a baseball like Hank Aaron, or a football like Trent Dilfer
(well, Trent is pretty sucky) or swim like Mark Spitz, so does that mean that
I shouldn't teach him how to throw a baseball, a football or swim? Of course
not!
He will learn at his level. He will perform at his level. As he gets older he
will get better and will perform at a higher level.
>To indoctrinate little children into our cultish behavior? To make
>money to pay the rent for the small adult class? To babysit while mom
>and dad stay home and watch the Simpsons?
Are you indicating that taking karate classes is a cultish behavior? I don't
think so. What cultish behavior are you referring to?
It is MY money. I can spend it any way I want. Nobody is reaching into my back
pocket and taking it from me. It is MY CHOICE how I spend it. If I choose to
buy him karate classes rather than a new Tonka truck, that is my choice.
For me it is not babysitting. I have started taking lessons at the dojo so
that he and I can practice at home and have a father / son activity.
Unfortunately this is not the case with many parents.
At our school the kids are grouped by age and ability and the training is
taught at their level. The breakdown is: 5-7 beginner, 5-7 intermediate,
5-7 advanced, 8-12 beginner, 8-12 advanced, adult beginner and adult
advanced. Fine, don't call it karate. Call it whatever you want. But I am
happy with the classes and so is he and it is something that we can share.
Steven K. Shapiro
>No, I really am selfish. :) Luckily there are others who will teach
>the kids, and like doing it. I get frustrated with them, quite
>easily. Which proves your point about me being inflexible.. It's my
>nature I'm afraid.
It is important to acknowledge ones limitations. You are not a kid's teacher.
You don't want to and should not force yourself to be one.
Nothing wrong with that.
I would rather you not teach than teach poorly.
>I guess I've learned that I'm not a good 'kid' teacher. Which may
>mean I'm not a good instructor for any age...
Maybe so. Not everyone can teach. It is a skill like anything else. Some are
better suited for it than others.
George Winter
On Fri, 19 Dec 97 16:50:15 GMT, skscci*deletethis*@universe.digex.net
(Steven K. Shapiro) wrote:
Rob:
>>To indoctrinate little children into our cultish behavior? To make
>>money to pay the rent for the small adult class? To babysit while mom
>>and dad stay home and watch the Simpsons?
>
Steven:
>Are you indicating that taking karate classes is a cultish behavior? I don't
>think so. What cultish behavior are you referring to?
>
Kids behave very differently in a karate class than at soccer. They
are orderly & quiet, all the little people call me sir, & treat me
with great respect, why, because I am a BLACK BELT, which is like unto
a god :-). I'm sure you were told that Karate teaches discipline,
karate teaches self reliance, etc. Translation Karate will inflict its
mores on the students. Now we may like the results, but there is
socialization. Cults are probably defined by how sucessful they are in
socializing you in ways we don't approve of.
>For me it is not babysitting. I have started taking lessons at the dojo so
>that he and I can practice at home and have a father / son activity.
>Unfortunately this is not the case with many parents.
>
I think the parent+child participation is a very good thing. I hope my
kids will take an interest in karate for the selfish reason that I
don't want to give up my hobby & want to spend time with them. But
lets not fool ourselves, the trend of dropping kids off at organized
activities & picking them up afterward is very real. Practically none
of our kids parents watch the classes, I think most work out at the Y,
go home, or take care of the other kids. Calling it babysitting is not
far off the mark.
>At our school the kids are grouped by age and ability and the training is
>taught at their level. The breakdown is: 5-7 beginner, 5-7 intermediate,
>5-7 advanced, 8-12 beginner, 8-12 advanced, adult beginner and adult
>advanced.
Whoa, pretty major number of classes.
Steven K. Shapiro
>Kids behave very differently in a karate class than at soccer. They
>are orderly & quiet, all the little people call me sir, & treat me
>with great respect, why, because I am a BLACK BELT, which is like unto
>a god :-). I'm sure you were told that Karate teaches discipline,
>karate teaches self reliance, etc. Translation Karate will inflict its
>mores on the students. Now we may like the results, but there is
>socialization. Cults are probably defined by how sucessful they are in
>socializing you in ways we don't approve of.
The 5-7 year old classes are not too strict. They say yes sir to show respect
to their teacher, just as they would at any school, and hopefully, with proper
upbringing, they would show respect to any adult in this manner. They do not
teach or believe that as the black belt, sensei, shihan, (insert title here)
that they are given godlike control over their subjects during class. They are
the teacher, the kids are the students and the relationship and behavior is
accordingly.
In our school these kids have class 2 hours total for the week. This leaves
over 100 waking hours that they are NOT in karate class. How much effect or
influence do you believe that this class has on them? Me, I don't believe it
has much influence at all. Kids will be influenced more by their parents and
elementary school teachers (who have them the bulk of their waking hours) than
2 hours of a karate class.
In our school we had these 2 7 year old twin boys. They were constantly
disruptive and disrespectful (they are more immature, undisciplined and
misbehaved than my 5 year old). The mother was hoping that the karate class
would give them some discipline. Hah! Not a chance. Further observation of
these parents demonstrated that the boys' lack of control and discipline was
directly due to the parents' influence and would not be assuaged by 2 hours of
a karate class.
>I think the parent+child participation is a very good thing. I hope my
>kids will take an interest in karate for the selfish reason that I
>don't want to give up my hobby & want to spend time with them. But
>lets not fool ourselves, the trend of dropping kids off at organized
>activities & picking them up afterward is very real. Practically none
>of our kids parents watch the classes, I think most work out at the Y,
>go home, or take care of the other kids. Calling it babysitting is not
>far off the mark.
I agree. I took the comment personally and replied as such. Unfortunately you
are too correct. I see this a lot. Many parents drop them off and return after
class. In many cases the parents don't even show up on time (either before or
after) class. This disrupts the class by those who arrive late, and it turns
the other parents, school staff, etc. into unwilling babysitters. How rude! In
many cases the kids are very interested and focused and it is amazing how they
are able to be like this considering the lack of focus the parents have.
Recently one parent asked me why I was buying 2 sets of patches for my son's
uniform (I guess they assumed that he has only 1 uniform, well he does, but
still...). I told them that one set was for him and one set was for me. "Why
do you need a set?" they asked. "Because I train here too". I explained. The
look of surprise on their faces was pronounced. I only know 1 other parent
who also trains.
>Whoa, pretty major number of classes.
It surely is. There are rarely more than a dozen students in each category.
But breaking them up into so many categories makes it much easier to teach to
the specific needs and at the level of the group.
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <34aaec33...@news.mindspring.com>, bigl...@mindspring.com wrote:
># Are you indicating that taking karate classes is a cultish behavior? I don't
># think so. What cultish behavior are you referring to?
>
>Please refer to definition #5...
>3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of
>adherents
>5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as
>a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or
>intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by
>such devotion
>Perhaps #3 counts as well. Yes, I believe that most karate is cultish
>behavior. A religion that teaches that daily training and devotion to
>the dojo is a path to enlightenment, health, and self-protection.
Well, maybe that has been your experiences, but they are not mine. I have been
involved with 4 dojo's. 3 were Korean styles and now with this Shotokan. I
also have quite a few friends who have trained in other disciplines. Nowhere
in any of our experiences would either apply to our karate training.
Your experience may be more extensive or varied, but it is still YOUR
experience, and not mine.
I have no need for a karate school where we are expected to be prosetylized
minions subservient to a sensei posing as a diety. I have picked schools where
they want to teach to students who want to learn.
Nothing more or less.
Keep the cultic crap. That is not for me or my kids.
Roshan Mamarvar
Rob Redmond wrote:
> #
> # I would. 5-7. Same as kiddie-soccer, t-ball, or other jr sports. I
> # think the focus has to be on giving them a flavor of the activity
> # rather than serious karate training. We have a kiddie class (I am not
> # sure about 5, but 6 & 7 year olds). They seem to have a good time &
> # they do a passable imitation of karate.
>
> Unethical.
>
> First of all, they will and *do* misuse it. A child that young has no
> sense of ethics. I watch the neighborhood kids playing "karate" with
> each other until the other gets hurt *everyday*.
[Rest snipped]
How comes you even care about ethics? You the always cynical Rob?
I mean, whenever someone posts s.th. about ethical aspects or mental
aspects of karate training, you are the first to attack this points.
Do we get a look behind the iron curtain of coolness here?
Roshan
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roshan Mamarvar Bochum / Germany
Homepage: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/index.htm
Karate: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/Karate.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roshan Mamarvar
Steven K. Shapiro wrote:
>
> Do any of you actually HAVE kids? I have 3. Ages 14, 7 and 5. I observe them
> playing at school and in the neighborhood.
I don'T have, but on the other hand I started my training when aged 7
years.
> My kid is not allowed to use karate anyplace but in class. The punishment is
> that he cannot go to class, a punishment that is too severe for him to violate
> the rule.
My father never told us such silly rules.
Why should a kid not use his skills, when there is an attack?
I doubt you teach your kids actually some atemi-point strikes,
and therefore ... a bloody nose is all they can get.
I remember one incidence when I was 4 years old, and still in the
kindergarden, there was another boy, who one day told proudly he
could do Judo, and so he took me and did some throw with me, leaving
me whining on the ground, and everyone clapping applause.
At home my father asked me, why I hadn't used karate (he was taking me
to his own class then from time to time), and so the other day I came
up with a "I can do Karate", positioned that guy in front of me, did
a Tsuki in his stomach, which left him whining on the ground, and
the kindergarten teachers shouting at me ... but I felt good :)
> You can also teach a kid that it is inappropriate to use karate outside the
> dojo. You teach them that if someone is bothering them, they go get the
> teacher / parent / adult supervisor rather than fighting.
Ok, but unhappily there isn'T always a teacher / parent / adult
supervisor ...
> Plus, all kids under 13 MUST be supervised by an adult.
Not here in Germany ... At least there is no law saying so, but I've
heard
there are places there is such law (Canada ?.. Tell us Moine)
Richard Frazier
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:19:15 +0100, Roshan Mamarvar
<mama...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I don'T have, but on the other hand I started my training when aged 7
>years.
<snip>
>Ok, but unhappily there isn'T always a teacher / parent / adult
>supervisor ...
I have this overwhelming need to know if there is some actual
significance in the *seeming* random use of a capital T at the end of
certain contractions.
Hmmm?
^v^
Rick
Appointed Keeper of the One True Book of Netiquette
Master of The Secret Order of the ^v^
And Doler of Frivolous Castigations
Roshan Mamarvar
Richard Frazier wrote:
>
> On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:19:15 +0100, Roshan Mamarvar
> <mama...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >I don'T have, but on the other hand I started my training when aged 7
> >years.
> <snip>
> >Ok, but unhappily there isn'T always a teacher / parent / adult
> >supervisor ...
>
> I have this overwhelming need to know if there is some actual
> significance in the *seeming* random use of a capital T at the end of
> certain contractions.
>
> Hmmm?
I think it comes from typing my posts very quickly, and not proof-
-reading them. ...:-(
George Winter
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:55:26 -0500, bigl...@mindspring.com (Rob
Redmond) wrote:
>Doing karate with your son, is, to me, a lot like watching TV with
>him. I'm unclear what special thing happens when Dad is in the class
>that wouldn't happen with another person for an opponent.
We have a father son team at the dojo, both seem interested in the
training. But as you say, it's not like they train *with* each other.
Still for me there would be the 20 minute drive to the Dojo, & back, a
nice feeling of sharing an interest, etc.
Bradley webb
George Winter wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:55:26 -0500, bigl...@mindspring.com (Rob
> Redmond) wrote:
> >Doing karate with your son, is, to me, a lot like watching TV with
> >him. I'm unclear what special thing happens when Dad is in the class
> >that wouldn't happen with another person for an opponent.
>
> We have a father son team at the dojo, both seem interested in the
> training. But as you say, it's not like they train *with* each other.
> Still for me there would be the 20 minute drive to the Dojo, & back, a
> nice feeling of sharing an interest, etc.
>
> George
Advantages of parent/child classes:
1 It's very much of a shared interest, it's efficient in that it allows
a parent to achieve something while the child achieves also.
2 Sometimes parents or older kids find that karate is for them thru
this type of parent/child training. I'm had several kids drop and
parents stay.
3 Several kids have come back to training after years out.
4 Helps pay for the dojo.
Disadvantages:
1 extra classes
2 watered down training
3 watered down standards
If we're willing to do the extra classes, that's our problem.
If we keep the training and standards up what's the problem?
Normally the parents think that karate(or training in general) is good
for the kids. Then if a parent gets interested they are usually welcome
to train also. At our club(like Jiin's) there are separate children and
adult classes. Most parents choose to train with the kids as a matter
of efficiency. This means that they don't always get the best training
for themselves, as the kids classes are focused on kids. We still do
regular training in JKA cirriculum, which is why we have few kids
compared to McDojo schools, yet the teaching style is slated to more
of a child's mind.
And it helps pay the bills.
Brad.
--
Brad Webb, 972-231-4922 Nortel Info Systems, 972-684-1737
Japan Shotokan Karate What? Me speak for Nortel? Never!
Dallas/Richardson TX.
Moderate _this_ baby!
Karateka63
>> Still for me there would be the 20 minute drive to the Dojo, & back, a
>> nice feeling of sharing an interest, et
My son (9) has trained with me since he was six.....not always in the same
classes...but it never hurt him to watch (he's been coming to watch since he
was four).
But George is right, the drive to class gives us time to catch up on whats
going on at home, school ect.
He doesn't especially like Karate, and he really hates it when I am crass
enough to quote the dojo kun to him during a lecture, but he has accepted it as
a part of his life.
"Children do not need choices, they need guidence".. -Someone wiser than me.
Bruce
Call me Bruce...Really!
Karateka63
>Yuck. Are you sure that you are quoting it correctly? As long as you
>are going to shove it up your son's rear end, you should probably take
>the time to learn what it means.
>
>
Actually Rob, I'm aiming at the other end....
Call me Bruce...Really!
Karateka63
>Please write for us this dojo kun that you throw at your
>son...
Don't get me wrong I am not dragging the kid screaming onto the dojo
floor...Ok... I do first, have to drag him away from the Nintendo...
On the "Dojo Floor" (Actually a rec center) he does quite well, and
occationally shows flashes of brilliance. But we train in the three K style;
Kihon, Kihon, and then more Kihon! This is not much of a mix for kids, and the
repetition does not hold his attention too long.
<RE: Dojo Kun>: Generally when its time for Math homework the "endeavor" one
gets thrown around alot, when the kids (I have three) are just raising too much
hell then the "refrain from impetuous behavior" one gets tossed around
alot......Now this may not be the intended application which Funakoshi and
Nakayama had in mind.......
Bruce
Steven K. Shapiro
>% <RE: Dojo Kun>: Generally when its time for Math homework the "endeavor" one
>% gets thrown around alot, when the kids (I have three) are just raising too
> much
>% hell then the "refrain from impetuous behavior" one gets tossed around
>% alot......Now this may not be the intended application which Funakoshi and
>% Nakayama had in mind.......
>
>Post the whole thing. Let's talk about it.
>
>-Rob
He seems unwilling or unable to do so. Let's go for it.
From the CyberDojo home page:
http://www.ryu.com/CyberDojo/dojo_kun.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hitotsu. Jinkaku Kansei ni Tsutomuro Koto.
Hitotsu. Makoto no Michi wo Mamoru Koto.
Hitotsu. Doryoku no Seishin o Yashinau Koto.
Hitotsu. Reigi o Omonzuru Koto.
Hitotsu. Kekki no Yu o Imashimuru Koto.
Seek Perfection of Character
Defend the Path of Truth
Endeavor to Excel
Display Courtesy
Refrain from Violent Behavior
Rob (or George), in your expertise in Japanese, is this a fair or correct or
'offical' interpretation into English from the Japanese?
Could 'violent' be interpreted as being 'impetuous' in some cases, or is there
an alternate interpretation depending on who the teacher is?
Personally I think that these 5 statements have much validity and cannot fault
them at face value.
However, I don't think that I am going to turn it into a mantra or anything
like that. But they are valid goals to strive for.
Shawn
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:34:08 -0500, ^v^@amaks.com wrote:
>Will someone with a 99% perfected gyakuzuki have anything over someone
>40 pounds heavier than he with a 97% effective gyakuzuki? I doubt it.
Clearly the guy/gal with the better command of timing and distance
will win. Weight doesn't matter so much in this, IMO. With the
relatively close effectiveness of the punches you cannot use that to
gauge.
I realize that you are using this in counter argument to a specific
point being made, but does 40 pounds really matter? Maybe in a
slug-fest a la 'Rocky'.
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
Shawn
On 12 Jan 1998 02:36:41 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Bartenders) wrote:
>And i do agree that adding the "I am.." is conceited, but I'm sure it's the
>instructors fault and his students shouldn't be bashed for something they don't
>yet understand.
>BadenHurst
No, actually saying "I am (or will) fostering the spirit of effort"
(or whatever) would give MORE benefit to the person than saying
"foster the spirit of effort". It's psychology not karate.
Shawn
Shawn
Throw the damn dojo kun out and use moral guidelines from your own
society. Teach them with the karate if you want to, although it may
not be well received. Does it matter? Am I really going to abide by
the moral guidelines someone sets down for me?
NO. I don't believe everything I read nor everything I hear. I take
the information, put it through my own processor and take the result
and integrate it into my program.
The dojo kun has been mistranslated, that much is certain. Take it or
leave it, but don't say that it MUST be taught with karate.
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
Shawn
On 12 Jan 1998 03:05:09 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>Well, you are a man consumed by hate, if your students ever learn anything
>besides punches kicks and blocks i would be surprised. IF they could defeat
>anyone from MY dojo i would be truly flabbergasted.
Whoa! Jiin I hope your flame-proof shelter can handle this!
>Sorry, Ive been too busy training to care about which browser I'm using. It
>seems to get the job done though.
Haha
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
"Psst! Pass the popcorn!"
Shawn
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:10:31 -0500, ^v^@amaks.com wrote:
>I was posting ceteris paribus - all things being equal. Forget timing
>and distancing. Would you rather have 40 pounds of muscle added or a
>3% increase in technical skill? Choose your weapon.
40 pounds of course. I've seen the light of the physics of karate!
Did I just invoke Lester?
Shawn (sjef...@direct.ca)
Karateka63
>%
>% Don't get me wrong I am not dragging the kid screaming onto the dojo
>% floor...Ok... I do first, have to drag him away from the Nintendo...
>
>Didn't ask, don't care.
>
>
No Beans, but you did accuse me of cramming it up his rear end!
And as far as the proud parent thing ...I know that when you've made cynicism a
way of life it , it is at best, difficult to accept genuine and honest
enthusiasm at face value, but the fact remains.... I AM A PROUD PARENT!
When I started training we were with a Dojo (Independent Dai-Ici /ITKF related)
that used:
Seek perfection of character!
Be faithful in our study!
Endeavor!
Respect others!
Refrain from violent behavior!
I am now with an ITKF club which uses:
I strive for perfection of character!
I follow the path of sincerity!
I foster the spirit of fortitude!
I honor the principles of etiquette!
I strive for self control!
I believe in what I do!
I am loyal!
I find the first version was easier to explain to children, and easier to get
them to consider....the second is more difficult for them as it is more
abstract.
Alright Rob,
Put your jaded glasses aside, and share some of you knowledge with me as to the
origins of the Kun.
<Shallow Guarded Bow>Bruce
George Winter
would some of the non english speaking karateka mind posting the dojo
kun in their language. I would esp like to see the german, spanish &
french versions.
George
______________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd. - Information Systems Consulting
Shawn Jefferson
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:39:32 -0500, ^v^@amaks.com fell drunkenly on the
keyboard and wrote by chance:
>On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 04:15:02 GMT, Shawn wrote:
>
>:
>:No, actually saying "I am (or will) fostering the spirit of effort"
>:(or whatever) would give MORE benefit to the person than saying
>:"foster the spirit of effort". It's psychology not karate.
>
>I think saying "I will fostering the spirit of effort" reminds me of
>my Jesse Jackson comment earlier.
Hmmm, I was hoping everyone would conjugate that verb differently for the
part in parenthesis.
I think my point is valid though. You associate yourself with something if
you say "I will/am <blank>" rather than "<blank>"
---
Shawn Jefferson (sjef...@direct.ca)
President, Dojokun Preservation Society - Canadian Chapter
DevonErik
Karate##@aol.com wrote:
>Seek perfection of character!
First DEFINE perfection of character.
>Be faithful in our study!
Be faithful to what?
>Endeavor!
Obviously.
>Respect others!
Like the typical karate instructor "respects" his students?
Bwahahahahahahahaah!
>Refrain from violent behavior!
Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
>I am now with an ITKF club which uses:
>
>I strive for perfection of character!
>I follow the path of sincerity!
What the heck is that supposed to mean?
>I foster the spirit of fortitude!
>I honor the principles of etiquette!
Which are?
>I strive for self control!
>I believe in what I do!
As opposed to the rest of us, who think it's a figment of our imagination.
>I am loyal!
To what? Or. more likely, to who?
I know the answer to this one, and I don't like it at all.
Most of the moral principles here are a good idea. But moral development is an
individual activity...Chanting slogans doesn't help.
"Men go crazy in congregations. They only get better one by one."
-Devo...@aol.com
"If all the economists in the world were set end to end, they still would
not stretch far enough to reach a conclusion."
Roland Mueller
George Winter wrote:
This is a harder task than you might think. Easy as it seems, I
startedto run for my bookshelf to get a book with the Dojo Kun. Guess
what?
I couldn't find any.
I must admit I have never practiced this Dojo Kun thing. Searching the
web, I found a German version at
http://members.aol.com/peterc936/bskmb/2017.htm
Compared this results in the following:1stStrive for completion of
character
Suche die Vervollkommnung deines Charakters
Jinkaku Kansei ni Tsutomuru Koto
2nd
Protect the way of the truth
Sei aufrichtig, loyal und zuverlässig
Makoto no michi wo Mamoru Koto
3rd
Foster the spirit of effort
Sei achtsam in deinem Streben
Doryoku no Seishin wo Yashinau Koto
4th
Respect the principles of etiquette
Ehre die Prinzipien der Etikette
Reigi wo Omonzuru Koto
5th
Guard against impetuous courage
Verzichte auf Gewalt
Kekki no Yu wo Imashimuru Koto
Though in some cases the translation from English to German would be
slightly different it reflects the same basic idea.
Regards,
Roland
Richard Frazier
On 11 Jan 1998 09:57:09 GMT, devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>>Karate##@aol.com wrote:
>>I honor the principles of etiquette!
>
>Which are?
... found at http://home.att.net/~Geodome/amaks/amakhand.htm
Learn them, live them, love Georgia peaches!
^v^
Rick
Appointed Keeper of the One True Book of Netiquette
GrandMaster of The Secret Order of the ^v^
Karateka63
>>Respect others!
>
>Like the typical karate instructor "respects" his students?
>Bwahahahahahahahaah!
>
>>Refrain from violent behavior!
>
>Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
>
>
Well Erik,
you have a good point, but just because people do not always live up to an
ideal does not mean that the ideal is invalid. Like the "perfect" gyaku-zuki
....I may never execute it...but that will remain a worthwile goal....
>Most of the moral principles here are a good idea. But moral development is
>an
>individual activity...Chanting slogans doesn't help.
>
>
I think that they are worthwile, I'm just a shodan, thus I teach mostly kids
and beginners, and with beginners there are so many misconceptions as to what
shotokan is all about...I let the Dojo kun explain to them. It gives them
something to think about in contrast to just "kicking butt".
> "Men go crazy in congregations. They only get better one by one."
>
>
I agree that there is a pervasive "cult" mentality in many Dojos, but I don't
agree that saying the dojo kun before or after class is going to foster that
mentality.....I hope it makes people ponder these issues for themselves, rather
than become a blind follower.
Bruce.
George Winter
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:14:46 +0100, Roland Mueller <rol...@sbs.de>
wrote:
>This is a harder task than you might think. Easy as it seems, I
>startedto run for my bookshelf to get a book with the Dojo Kun. Guess
>what?
>I couldn't find any.
>I must admit I have never practiced this Dojo Kun thing. Searching the
>web, I found a German version at
>http://members.aol.com/peterc936/bskmb/2017.htm
>
Do germans use the japanese version or do they give it a miss
entirely?
here is my translation German:English
>Suche die Vervollkommnung deines Charakters
Seek the completion of your character
>Sei aufrichtig, loyal und zuverlässig
be upright, loyal & trustworthy (sounds like a boy scout)
>Sei achtsam in deinem Streben
be attentive in your striving (attend to your stiving)
>
>Ehre die Prinzipien der Etikette
honor the principles of etiquette
>Verzichte auf Gewalt
refrain from using violence
>Though in some cases the translation from English to German would be
>slightly different it reflects the same basic idea.
>
Indeed it does. I wonder if this was a japanese to german translation
or an English to german one
George Winter
On 10 Jan 1998 16:28:13 GMT, karat...@aol.com (Karateka63) wrote:
>I AM A PROUD PARENT!
Somehow I think it goes without saying. I am a proud parent too. But
in my rational moments I look at my 7 month old chewing on whatever &
ask myself exactly what it is I am proud of. Given that he exceeds my
wildest expectations when he just gurgles I think I am not setting the
bar to high :-}
As for Rob's co-worker, I sympathise, I think there should be Have
Children, Childless sections established at restaurants & parties. I
personally can talk about my kids & their amusing behavior at great
length. Luckily I only occasionally inflict this on my coworkers, and
now, he, on you.
Badenhurst
>>Seek perfection of character!
>
>First DEFINE perfection of character.
>
>>Be faithful in our study!
>
>Be faithful to what?
>
>>Endeavor!
>
>Obviously.
mental capacity to accept shortened expressions of the same idea. It's not the
words, but the spirit used to say them and an acute understanding of what
connotations a small phrase could accually include.
BadenHurst
Badenhurst
Although valid examples of people screwing up. This is not the case, how much
do you really know about those that speak the Kun? I bet nothing or very
little about each one of our social and ethical principles.
>Anyone want to hear Bill Clinton's lecture on why adultery is >wrong?
>How about a lecture from the Kennedy boys on clean, safe living >and
>the importance of ski slope etiquette? Anyone interested in >listening to me
tell someone "Hey, don't be blunt and crass on >Usenet. That's wrong."
Maybe not, but that doesn't mean people don't change.
>It is not a worthwhile goal. A 99% perfect gyakuzuki and a 95%
>perfect gyakuzuki...what is the difference is terms of real, actual
>benefit to the owner? None, probably.
I guess that's Okay if you like playing the odds. In my dojo, we train for the
Ultimate Opponent. (Someone willing to die to destroy you.) Most U.S.
citizens are not under terrorist attack, but when some dumb fuck adreniline
junky marine asshole goes shooting his mouth off about how Karate is not a way
of life but a "collection of fighting techniques used as a last resort." The
guy with the 99% perfect gyakuzuki will probably have some other formidable
techniques to dismantle this poor gentleman's ego.
> So, one guy is out there worrying about some tiny, little
> imperfection and a life-long, romantic struggle to remove it.
Yeah, frustration is a bad thing, but if one can forget about the "can't"s and
just practice harder, faster, longer, working each day not to pick apart what
is wrong with his technique but continue to hone what is dull in his
sub-conscious, he may one day save his own or anothers life.
>But you yourself are a blind follower. The irony drips like thick
>syrup from a forkful of pancakes.
Other than Karl Marx, i have never met a more stubborn man. Throughout
history, men have banded together to defeat a common foe. Sometimes for the
wrong motives, (more often than not) but, together, united. If saying the dojo
Kun makes me a gerbil, i could give a fuck. And following your principal that
Shotokan is:
> a collection of physical movements
>and the study of those movements and how to make them second >nature.
Then you should care less as well being as hard core as you think you are.
Every time you bow to your sensei you are practicing this, but does he not
deserve it for going through the same shit for many years ahead of you. Ki is
for the Hara, Lungs, Base, and Voice believe it or not. Being able to scream
loud may be an advantage over your opponent. Although the Kun is about ethical
principals and unity amongst eachother, it does serve as a voice box workout,
and an agression outlet.
BadenHurst
Badenhurst
>I would think that an understanding of the actual Japanese that the
>Dojo Kun was written in would be important before you haul off and
>claim to understand the English translation.
Hey, then he should quit the instructor, but the original principles are there
with some extra nonsense, a good student will look past that if the instructor
knows what he's doing. Otherwise, LEAVE.
To strive for perfection of character.
(And perfection is the same as "bring to an end") For you must know that you
can never have finished your ethical training, you must always work on it,
hoping for perfection.
To defend the paths of truth.
Yes this does mean speak and live the truth. Defend them from evil influence
and intent, things that cloud our vision as good people and as martial artists.
To foster a spirit of effort.
Try your hardest every day as if the next you might meet the ultimate foe.
To honor the principals of etiquette.
Be humble, kind, generous, loving, witty, sharp, attentive, and respectful
above all.
To guard against impetuous courage.
Only use your ability in well thought out defense. Do not rush headlong into
confrontations to prove your "manlihood".
If you bear these things in mind when you train, you will tire yourself out, i
guarantee it.
Badenhurst
>You are some kind of an idiot. How much do I know about "those that
>speak the kun?" <laughing!>
You and i both know i meant, "how much do you know about this student that has
to study under an instructor almost as conceited as you."
> I used to be one of "those that speak
>the kun" until I trained with the JKA in Japan and found that in adult
>classes they generally don't even use the dojo kun.
That's all well and good, but the Kun is a sales pitch as well, stupid
americans like to have some sort of mystical thoughts to latch on too to carry
them through their day. Since we no longer believe in the power of democracy,
we must believe that our duldrum existence stems from an all powerful god or
some sort of life stream/paranormal continuum. I really think it's sad when I
see an instructor that thinks he knows everything.
>What does throwing stones from a glass house have to do with people
>changing? Nothing. You need to refine your debate tactics before you
>take on the big guns.
You probably think the death penalty is "just deserts" too. How many times
have you been close to the line of snapping someones neck for something
trivial? By your writing style i would say many times you have crossed that
line. Controlling your thanatos is very difficult at times, but through
intense psychoanalysis, people can change their ways.
>What a crock of crap. "The Ultimate Opponent." As if the average
>Shotokaner would have a chance in hell against "The above average
>opponent."
Why, are you jealous that your students could not fight the average opponent.
The shotokan practitioners at my dojo, (also a part of my family) seem to do
quite well against other opponents, in fact, two years ago we had 5 national
champions.
>What you do not realize is that I am not and have never been in >The Service.
Sorry.
> Secondly, I am not "shooting my mouth off" since I do not
>speak while typing these messages.
Yes, but you are uptight.
>Will someone with a 99% perfected gyakuzuki have anything over someone
>40 pounds heavier than he with a 97% effective gyakuzuki? I doubt it.
If they also have Jiu Jitsu experience, and can use the two sticks laying on
the ground next to them, they will indeed overcome someone 200 lbs heavier than
them. You old people are so set in your ways. There are no right answers, you
must be rounded in every way, able to adapt to any situation, then, knowing
what to do in the situation comes in handy. If you think in your mind, "all
big guys pin you against the wall" and you get a big guy that likes to stand
and box, you may not be able to adapt fast enough to not get caught. I just
don't think you can discount anyone's opinion, you can simply give them more
information on the subject and see if they change their mind.
>At some point, eternal perfection of technique becomes a joke as the
>learning curve becomes flatter and flatter.
Should that not encourage you to push yourself beyond normal limitations. Tap
into something inside of you that noone wants to understand but exists to keep
you going when you are at your lowest point.
>You've met Karl Marx?!?
Have you read his book?
>% Then you should care less as well being as hard core as you think you are.
>That is not a sentence. Try again. I should care less as well being
>as hard core as I think I am? <laughing!>
Well, you are a man consumed by hate, if your students ever learn anything
besides punches kicks and blocks i would be surprised. IF they could defeat
anyone from MY dojo i would be truly flabbergasted.
>But _I_ am the instructor in my club.
You keep trying to remind yourself don't you.> Do you speak
>Japanese? If not, how do you know what the kun says?
See my other message about what the Kun says. And yes, i do know a bit of
japanese.
>using that joke of a browser AOL gave you.
Sorry, Ive been too busy training to care about which browser I'm using. It
seems to get the job done though.
BadenHurst
Roshan Mamarvar
George Winter wrote:
>
> Do germans use the japanese version or do they give it a miss
> entirely?
>
I don't know, what exactly you mean by "use" .
I imagine this:
Before the class starts, the Dai-Sempai (or Dai-O-Sempai if you want ;-)
)
reads the dojo-kun (or O-dojo-kun), and the class repeats in a chorus.
After that the O-Sensei appears, and class starts ...
(This scene was put together in my mind, remembering some awfull films
and AMAKS-threads)
We don't "use" the dojo-kun, but it exists, and we take it as some kind
principle, not law.
DevonErik
Karateka##@aol.com wrote:
>Well Erik,
>
>you have a good point, but just because people do not always live up to an
>ideal does not mean that the ideal is invalid. Like the "perfect" gyaku-zuki
>....I may never execute it...but that will remain a worthwile goal....
There's quite a difference between the occassional failure of perception or
will, and full-scale hypocrisy. Most teachers don't even TRY to respect their
students. In fact, quite the opposite.
Just as I would refuse to accept a temperance lecture from a cocaine addict,
or ettiquette lessons from a convicted murderer, I have little enthusiasm for
being told about "respect" by most karate instructors.
>>Most of the moral principles here are a good idea. But moral development is
>>an
>>individual activity...Chanting slogans doesn't help.
>
>I think that they are worthwile, I'm just a shodan, thus I teach mostly kids
>and beginners,
This is a problem. Teaching kids and beginners is MORE difficult than teaching
intermediate classes. It shouldn't be foisted off on a shodan. The fact that
your teacher is doing this is a mark of laziness...he wants to teach the easy
classes himself, and let you take the hard ones.
Incidently, one of the AMAKS bylaws is "Don't post your rank."
> and with beginners there are so many misconceptions as to what
>shotokan is all about...>
The dojo kun is one of these.
>I let the Dojo kun explain to them. It gives them
>something to think about in contrast to just "kicking butt".
How about teaching morality by example instead of by catchphrase?
DevonErik
Rob Redmond wrote:
>You need to refine your debate tactics before you
>take on the big guns.
Rob Redmond Dolls! Getcher Rob Redmond Dolls here! With new inflatable latex
Ego!
Andrew
On 12 Jan 1998 02:36:41 GMT baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote
(amongst other things):
..To honor the principals of etiquette.
..Be humble, kind, generous, loving, witty, sharp, attentive, and respectful
..above all.
And here's me thinking that Miss Manners was one of the Principals of
Ettiquette...
Sorry. I couldn't help it. This was one of the silliest posts I have
seen for yonks.
Andrew
DevonErik
Rob Redmond wrote:
>:To guard against impetuous courage.
>:Only use your ability in well thought out defense. Do not rush headlong
>into
>:confrontations to prove your "manlihood".
>
>Thank you, Jesse Jackson, for your assistance in decomplexifying this
>mysterium for we.
<a small, choked, gasping sound emerges from beneth the computer desk. the
camera pans slowly down, revealing devonerik, paralyzed with laughter and
struggling to breathe.>
Roland Müller
George Winter wrote:
>
> Do germans use the japanese version or do they give it a miss
> entirely?
>
Your translation back into English is very good.
>
> >Though in some cases the translation from English to German would be
> >slightly different it reflects the same basic idea.
> >
>
> Indeed it does. I wonder if this was a japanese to german translation
> or an English to german one
I simply quoted it from the website.
Roland
George Winter
On 11 Jan 1998 09:57:09 GMT, devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>Karate##@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Seek perfection of character!
>
>First DEFINE perfection of character.
>
No don't. I think that the one of the chief benefits of the dojo kun
in our translation is that It doesen't spell out the details. The aim
of karate do is to complete your character, you figure out what that
means to you. If someone starts telling you what it is then we get
closer to a cult.
>>Be faithful in our study!
>
>Be faithful to what?
>
See above. To your ownself be true.
>>Endeavor!
>
>Obviously.
>>Respect others!
>
>Like the typical karate instructor "respects" his students?
>Bwahahahahahahahaah!
Where do you get this? Why are you still practicing karate? I have had
a number of instructors, they were nice people, they were decent
people, every one of them respected me. If your instructor doesen't
get the hell out.
>
>>Refrain from violent behavior!
>
>Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
?? Your dojo encourages bullying or thuggish behaviour - again I
suggest you find a better dojo.
>
>Most of the moral principles here are a good idea. But moral development is an
>individual activity...Chanting slogans doesn't help.
>
> "Men go crazy in congregations. They only get better one by one."
Not really. A group socializes its members. If the group inflics high
moral principles than most will abide by them, if they encourage their
lack then you will see that behaviour. It is the rare individual who
bucks the mores of his society & decides his own morality.
I agree that chanting slogans makes little difference. I think it is
the subtle suggestions & behaviors that are more influential. Bowing
to seniors more deeply than to juniors, waiting in seiza when you are
late, accepting correction you know to be wrong. Basically the most
dangerous part of the Dojo Kun is the "To honor the principals of
etiquette" The etiquette is the tool that effects the behavior the
most.
A key indicator of how much it has influenced you is how do you treat
your sensei outside of the classroom situation. Would this behaviour
make sense if directed towards your Jazz Dance instructor? towards
your stained glass instructor?
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Roshan Mamarvar
^v^@amaks.com wrote:
>
> Clearly there are some opportunities in this article. The o prefix in
> Japanese is largely used by women. Men generally avoid it. Also,
> many words don't take the o prefix. Some words take go instead. And,
> some words don't take any prefix no matter the politeness level. I
> believe that sempai and dojo are two of these words.
>
> 0-sensei is a statement that makes you sound extremely feminine. Have
> we been planting flowers?
I used this, because I was remembering somehow someone who had posted
a seminar or so with is O-sensei ... last year ore so, and I really
found
it to sound very funny :-) Anyone remember this person?
George Winter
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:38:59 +0100, Roshan Mamarvar
<mama...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>O-sensei
I have heard this expression numerous times to refer to the revered
founder of the style. It may be effeminate, but it seems to be pretty
common usage in some MA. I believe Aikidoka refer to Ueshiba as
O-Sensei.
O-boy
Vincent J. Ferrer
Badenhurst wrote:
> I guess im a little conceited too.
At very least.
> But as i said in my other note, there are
> no absolutely correct answers,
Nonsense, 2 + 2 = 4 over here, not including outcome based education ;- ).
> i believe that you are not japanese either, and
> therefore cannot truly comprehend the "mysticism" of the language.
Yeah, most of us 'stupid Americans' have problems with English "mysticism".
> It's not
> very mystical though, as you said, "It's just techniques used as a last
> resort." I think the Dojo Kun is a good moral center for immoral souls that
> would be without home and for those seeking a more finite reason for living.
> As an existentialist, I choose to live, you choose to live by criticizing
> others possibly for an inadequacy you see within yourself.>(And perfection is
> the same as "bring to an end")
YADA,YADA,YADA.......You must be Oprah's brother.
> Nope, belief systems are unique to the individual, I can disagree, but I cannot
> tell someone what is right and wrong.
If you can't figure out what's right and wrong, you'll be goose stepping with the
rest of them.
> But if one's ethics are not continually
> changing and molding, that person is stagnant, once you become satisfied, you
> start going down hill.
Yeah, but your changing and molding again.
> And please quit making this subject less interesting by attacking me and my
> character, this political mud slinging doesn't work on the net. (at least not
> for the reasonable.)
Yes, and look the other way, like you.
> Once again, we do not, never have and never will live in asia. Those are my
> principles of etiquette, they satisfy my needs, and a very ad-libbed list at
> that
ad-libbed character?
btw, in case you hadn't Adam Smith crushed Karl Marx.
Vincent J. Ferrer
Badenhurst
>LEAVE.
>
>Wrong suggestion. What _should_ happen is karate instructors should
>make sure that their students don't turn out like you: I can punch and
>kick, therefore I am a professor of Asian Studies.
I guess im a little conceited too. But as i said in my other note, there are
no absolutely correct answers, i believe that you are not japanese either, and
therefore cannot truly comprehend the "mysticism" of the language. It's not
very mystical though, as you said, "It's just techniques used as a last
resort." I think the Dojo Kun is a good moral center for immoral souls that
would be without home and for those seeking a more finite reason for living.
As an existentialist, I choose to live, you choose to live by criticizing
others possibly for an inadequacy you see within yourself.>(And perfection is
the same as "bring to an end")
>
>No, it is not. That is one definition of "perfect." (verb) It is not
>a definition of "perfection." The Japanese clearly implies "complete"
As I say, the intent is there, if one truly thinks he can perfect his
character, he is trying the impossible, that is my contingency.
>: For you must know that you
>:can never have finished your ethical training, you must always work on it,
>:hoping for perfection.
>
>What utter garbage? Any _YOU_ will be providing people with "ethical
>training.
Nope, belief systems are unique to the individual, I can disagree, but I cannot
tell someone what is right and wrong. But if one's ethics are not continually
changing and molding, that person is stagnant, once you become satisfied, you
start going down hill. In each situation you face, you use the skills you have
amassed up to that point, in the case of knowledge it is no different.
> Who appointed you He
>Who Knows Right From Wrong in Kung Fu Pajamas?
And please quit making this subject less interesting by attacking me and my
character, this political mud slinging doesn't work on the net. (at least not
for the reasonable.)
>Do Japanese speak and live the truth? What is their truth, and
>therefore what did they mean by "Defend/protect the way/road/path of
>the truth?" You have no idea.
Hell no they don't, I'm not talking about america vs. asia here. What is your
substitute for living truthfully? Mocking others to make you seem correct?
>:To foster a spirit of effort.
>:Try your hardest every day as if the next you might meet the ultimate foe.
>
>Gee. That needed explaining. I'm sure the people with only a single
>digit in their IQ's are most grateful for your assistance.
Disregard the above comment if you are reading this thread for the first time.
>WRONG. Dead wrong. Those are not the principles of Japanese
>etiquette.
Once again, we do not, never have and never will live in asia. Those are my
principles of etiquette, they satisfy my needs, and a very ad-libbed list at
that. I must restate that the reason for the Kun is to instill a sense of
ability and accomplishment in the individual, the translation is arguable, but
the premise is not. You might as well be criticizing me for my spelling.
Funakoshi's original ideas are preserved in his books, please read them.
>They should only be bashed for it if they state it as fact, as you
>should be bashed for the above, which you clearly do not understand,
>but have interpreted for your own use, and now spew as sewage for
>others to drink.
Your comment drips thick with cynicism, please enlighten us oh great one and
accually make a comment about where my statements are utterly wrong.
BadenHurst
Joel Young
In article <19980113000...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) writes:
>
> resort." I think the Dojo Kun is a good moral center for immoral souls that
> would be without home and for those seeking a more finite reason for living.
Where is the center in the dojo kun? Trying to pin down what it
directs in terms of behavior is impossible even with the English
versions. Define "character." Define "perfection."
You would probably be better off having the kids chant:
First, brush your teeth in the morning.
First, wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
First, ...
> As an existentialist, I choose to live, you choose to live by criticizing
> others possibly for an inadequacy you see within yourself.>(And perfection is
bonehead
Joel
jyo...@erols.com
Karateka63
<Whites of his eyes in glaring contrast to his soot covered face>
>Jimmy Swaggart said, "I have sinned against you."
I wont quote the whole passage ....but this is a very good example just because
Jimmy Swaggert sins...are the ten commandments invalid...is adultry a good
idea?...of course not!
And frankly.....I really must question the intelect of any of any TV preachers
followers anyways....Amen!
>% Like the "perfect" gyaku-zuki
>% ....I may never execute it...but that will remain a worthwile goal....
>
>It is not a worthwhile goal.
Sure Rob...I'll settle for 90% on the gyaku-zuki...and mawashigeri is a little
harder so I'll settle for 85%...ect....Ridiculous!...Shotokan training is
striving for percfection of terchnique, not some arbitrary percentage of
perfection....If you havn't figured that out Rob, It may be time to hang it
up......
>Who is the idiot in the above example?
>
The "Idiot" in this case Rob, is the karate-ka who settles for "good enough",
and never realizes his potential!
>You do not define for others what Shotokan is all about, Bruce.
I don't have to ...Funakoshi and Nakayama did that...And if Shotokan has no set
philosophy behind it...then it is just so much kicking and punching, and if you
really believe that, then you've wasted all of those twenty years that you are
constantly vaunting.
>They want to get out of
>a bar intact when a bunch of sailors and marines start punching each
>other out.
OH Good! The perfect opportunity for a cheezy MA movie! What do you do teach
barroom Wasa...Tekki-Beerbottle!...Right...Thats Shotokan.
>Karate is not a way of life. It is a collection of physical movements
>and the study of those movements and how to make them second nature.
Then my friend, again I say that you you have wasted the lifetime that you have
spent on shotokan....If all this is to you is a bunch of punches and
kicks....then no wonder you are always in such a bad mood!
>But you yourself are a blind follower.
I "see"............. ;p
Bruce
Joel Young
In article <34bb1089...@news.mindspring.com>,
ji...@mindspring.com (Gerald H. Bush IV) writes:
> baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) : tried to bust out th' whoopin' stick by saying
> =As I say, the intent is there, if one truly thinks he can perfect his
> =character, he is trying the impossible, that is my contingency.
>
> Contingency sounds very much like you are beginning to try and
> CYOA. (cover your own ass)
I think he was trying to remember the word "contension" but instead
he went to far when thumbing through the dictionary, got tired, and
just picked a random four syllable word. He (presumably) could have used
argument (only three) or premise (only two).
Joel
jyo...@erols.com
Karateka63
>Most teachers don't even TRY to respect their
>students. In fact, quite the opposite.
Yikes!...(Sounds like he trains under Rob!) :)
Bruce
Karateka63
>And i do agree that adding the "I am.." is conceited, but I'm sure it's the
>instructors fault and his students shouldn't be bashed for something they
>don't
>yet understand.
What the hell is wrong with loyalty! The guy did not add his name to the end of
the sentence....Loyalty is a worthwile virtue....but one that you guys don't
seem to have much experience with....
Blind loyalty is on thing...but my training is at best difficult, and
painful...people just don't DO that for any length of time without thinking
long and hard about it....So I reject this notion of blind loyalty.
Bruce
DevonErik
Karateka##@aol.com wrote:
{DevonErik wrote}
>>Most teachers don't even TRY to respect their
>>students. In fact, quite the opposite.
>
>Yikes!...(Sounds like he trains under Rob!) :)
Nope. Rob's in Atlanta. I'm in southern California. I wish I could sometimes.
I have trained with many instructors, and they are a mixed bag. I remember one
teacher who lectured me on how "to respect others" meant being sensitive to
their needs when he thought I was being too rough with a training partner.
Then, sometime later, he chose the most overwrought and vulnerable moment of my
life to have a cheap laugh at my expense. I no longer care for his idea of
morality.
You have Rob all wrong. Not every man will put on a Star of David for someone
he never met. If you don't know what that means, never mind...
DevonErik
Rob Redmond wrote:
>:Rob Redmond Dolls! Getcher Rob Redmond Dolls here! With new inflatable latex
>:Ego!
>
>You going to deny that I am one of the big fish in this little pond?
Nope.
>Anything other than a statement of fact above I don't see. Not
>humble, sure, but not arrogant either.
>
>When I'm being arrogant, there will be no doubt.
You are arrogant. You're also usually right.
This can be irritating. :-P
Karateka63
>Then, sometime later, he chose the most overwrought and vulnerable moment of
>my
>life to have a cheap laugh at my expense.
I'm sorry. He sounds like a real jerk, but is this behavior typical of most
instructors, or just from a few bad apples?
DevonErik
George Winter wrote:
>devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>
>>Karate##@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Seek perfection of character!
>>
>>First DEFINE perfection of character.
>>
>No don't. I think that the one of the chief benefits of the dojo kun
>in our translation is that It doesen't spell out the details. The aim
>of karate do is to complete your character, you figure out what that
>means to you. If someone starts telling you what it is then we get
>closer to a cult.
True.
>>>Be faithful in our study!
>>
>>Be faithful to what?
>>
>See above. To your ownself be true.
That's what you say. Others try to interpret this to me as loyalty to this or
that. No way. I decide who I'm loyal to.
>>>Respect others!
>>
>>Like the typical karate instructor "respects" his students?
>>Bwahahahahahahahaah!
>Where do you get this? Why are you still practicing karate? I have had
>a number of instructors, they were nice people, they were decent
>people, every one of them respected me.
Of course they were, dear.
>>>Refrain from violent behavior!
>>
>>Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
>
>?? Your dojo encourages bullying or thuggish behaviour - again I
>suggest you find a better dojo.
No, it doesn't. But we spend all day studying how to hit people, and then try
to say we're not violent? Oh, please.
>>Most of the moral principles here are a good idea. But moral development is
>an
>>individual activity...Chanting slogans doesn't help.
>>
>> "Men go crazy in congregations. They only get better one by one."
>
>
>Not really. A group socializes its members. If the group inflics high
>moral principles than most will abide by them, if they encourage their
>lack then you will see that behaviour.
Yes. But the group that socializes an individual is not his karate class. It is
those who raised him, and those who constitute his social environment.
> It is the rare individual who
>bucks the mores of his society & decides his own morality.
Not so. I encounter them every day.
>I agree that chanting slogans makes little difference. I think it is
>the subtle suggestions & behaviors that are more influential. Bowing
>to seniors more deeply than to juniors,
I believe we were discussing lack of respect?
Anyway, what does this have to do with morality?
> waiting in seiza when you are
>late,
Ditto.
> accepting correction you know to be wrong.
Wrong according to whom? Accepting correction because you really are wrong, or
because you don't have the status to argue with
Mr.Sensei-Grandmaster-Godperson-Sir?
>Basically the most
>dangerous part of the Dojo Kun is the "To honor the principals of
>etiquette"
Yes. Whose ettiquette?
> The etiquette is the tool that effects the behavior the
>most.
Say what?
>A key indicator of how much it has influenced you is how do you treat
>your sensei outside of the classroom situation. Would this behaviour
>make sense if directed towards your Jazz Dance instructor? towards
>your stained glass instructor?
Yes. It should.
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <69eru8$8ld$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, jdy...@m486.young (Joel Young) wrote:
>> =As I say, the intent is there, if one truly thinks he can perfect his
>> =character, he is trying the impossible, that is my contingency.
>>
>> Contingency sounds very much like you are beginning to try and
>> CYOA. (cover your own ass)
>
>I think he was trying to remember the word "contension" but instead
>he went to far when thumbing through the dictionary, got tired, and
>just picked a random four syllable word. He (presumably) could have used
>argument (only three) or premise (only two).
It's the mysticism of English that we'll never hope to be able to understand.
8-)
Regards,
Steve.
// Steven K. Shapiro @ SKS Computer Consulting, Inc.
// All Opinions May Or May Not Be My Own
// eMail > sks...@universe.digex.net
// WWW HomePage > http://www.universe.digex.net/~skscci/
George Winter
On 13 Jan 1998 06:03:49 GMT, devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>George Winter wrote:
>
>>See above. To your ownself be true.
>
>That's what you say. Others try to interpret this to me as loyalty to this or
>that. No way. I decide who I'm loyal to.
>
so "be loyal" should be dropped
>>>>Refrain from violent behavior!
>>>
>>>Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
>>
>>?? Your dojo encourages bullying or thuggish behaviour - again I
>>suggest you find a better dojo.
>
>No, it doesn't. But we spend all day studying how to hit people, and then try
>to say we're not violent? Oh, please.
>
No that is exacly what I am saying. When I practice with a partner I
am thinking about the technique, the intended effect, & making sure
the other person is not injured whether he blocks or not.
>>Not really. A group socializes its members. If the group inflics high
>>moral principles than most will abide by them, if they encourage their
>>lack then you will see that behaviour.
>
>Yes. But the group that socializes an individual is not his karate class. It is
>those who raised him, and those who constitute his social environment.
Karate constitutes a little society & can influence behavior. Most
noticibly during class (as we all know), but outside it as well. After
all that is why it is worth discussing this at all.
>
>> It is the rare individual who
>>bucks the mores of his society & decides his own morality.
>
>Not so. I encounter them every day.
>
That doesen't make them any more common :=)
>>I agree that chanting slogans makes little difference. I think it is
>>the subtle suggestions & behaviors that are more influential. Bowing
>>to seniors more deeply than to juniors,
>
>I believe we were discussing lack of respect?
>
>Anyway, what does this have to do with morality?
>
Nothing. I am not trying to adress morality. I am talking about the
stated goals of the Dojo Kun & what parts I have problems with.
>>Basically the most
>>dangerous part of the Dojo Kun is the "To honor the principals of
>>etiquette"
>
>Yes. Whose ettiquette?
>
>> The etiquette is the tool that effects the behavior the
>>most.
>
>Say what?
to restate my point, everyday Karate etiquette has the furthest
reaching effect on karate students. This is what transmits much of the
"Karate Kult" mindset. This is the element I consider dangerous not
the Kun, because I think that chanted slogans get little mind-share.
You chant them, you don't live them. Might as well use the japanese.
George
______________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd. - Information Systems Consulting
Bradley Webb
George Winter wrote:
>
> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:38:59 +0100, Roshan Mamarvar
> <mama...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >O-sensei
>
> I have heard this expression numerous times to refer to the revered
> founder of the style. It may be effeminate, but it seems to be pretty
> common usage in some MA. I believe Aikidoka refer to Ueshiba as
> O-Sensei.
>
> O-boy
Phil Porter of one of the US Judo groups
now has his students calling him ... o-sensei.
Brad
--
Brad Webb, 972-231-4922 Nortel Info Systems, 972-684-1737
Japan Shotokan Karate Dallas/Richardson TX.
JKA Dallas http://www.dallas.net/jka/
Mark Goetsch
Badenhurst wrote:
$ I guess im a little conceited too. But as i said in my other note,
there are
$ no absolutely correct answers, i believe that you are not japanese
either, and
$ therefore cannot truly comprehend the "mysticism" of the language.
It's not
$ very mystical though, as you said, "It's just techniques used as a
last
$ resort." I think the Dojo Kun is a good moral center for immoral
souls that
$ would be without home and for those seeking a more finite reason for
living.
$ As an existentialist, I choose to live, you choose to live by
criticizing
$ others possibly for an inadequacy you see within yourself.>(And
perfection is
$ the same as "bring to an end")
There are a whole lot of mis-conceptions being thrown around about the
Dojo Kun.
The Dojo Kun is a Dojo Kun not an Organization Kun. In Kendo every Dojo
has
their own Kun. The one that I have from Kendo was handwritten by the
Instructor
who used some of his Instructor's Dojo Kun (Tokyo Police Kendo Team) for
every
student. Funakoshi copied Itotsu's Dojo Kun which was most likely copied
from
Sakagawa's Kun. Funakoshi being a Confucionist added Confucionist ideas
to his
Kun which differs from Itotsu. Kun's outside of Funakoshi usually take
thier que
from Nitobe's Bushido Code whereas Funakoshi didn't. Rob's translation
(which is
from one of the Japanese versions, perhaps from the 1962 aniversery of
Funakoshi's
death where they re-stated the Kun.) which corresponds more to the
samurai version
of a Kun rather than the a Confucionist view. The point though is that
the Kun is
a personal or Dojo level set of ethical standards. It is not a statement
of societal
change. No different than the ethical standards that everyone from the
boy scouts to
the AIMR, CPA, Bar and MD professions ask for.
The other problem is the attitude that Shotokan Karate is what you want
it to be. That
is not true. We can say for example that "Baseball, is what you want it
to be", that
you can "whack yourself in the leg" and that that is as much a
definition of baseball
as the actual rules are. Karate has a tradition of being a Martial Art
in the Eastern
Tradition. There is no Jutsu built in here, there is "Do". "Do" is a
path to Buddhist/
Shinto perfection that is the end all in and of itself without referance
to any other
external goal. In this sense we punch and kick with the idea of reaching
a state of
perfection. Not with the idea of sef defense or some societal sense.
What we mean by perfection is rather more complicated (there is at least
one book written about it). As americans we have taken this "Do" and
added our unique
nature to it. This is fine as long as we retain the original "Do".
Mark
Bradley Webb
DevonErik wrote:
> George Winter wrote:
> >devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
> >>Karate##@aol.com wrote:
> >>>Be faithful in our study!
I intensely dis-like the words "Be Faithful" and much more
prefer "Be Sincere" but thats because of my interpretation
of the what the two sets say. I (like Devon) choose who I will
be faithful to, however sincerity to me means to be honest with
yourself and others.
> >>>Respect others!
> >>
> >>Like the typical karate instructor "respects" his students?
> >>Bwahahahahahahahaah!
Well Devon, I echo George's emotional idealism, sentiment,
what-have-you. Even though there are still problems ...
"Respect" is another set I don't like, but less intensely
than "Faith". It (and others) are equally easy to vitiate.
Such as the phrase "Observe Proper Etiquitte"... who defines
proper etiquitte?
Everyone should have a level of respect given to them until
they either earn more or deserve less. How much to give ???
> >>>Refrain from violent behavior!
> >>
> >>Just like our oh-so-gentle seniors?
> >
> >?? Your dojo encourages bullying or thuggish behaviour - again I
> >suggest you find a better dojo.
>
> No, it doesn't. But we spend all day studying how to hit people, and then try
> to say we're not violent? Oh, please.
How long has it been since you've started a fight on a street corner?
And I'm sure that you are carrying a loaded handgun in the car for
those touching moments on the LA Freeways, right?
There's a hell of a lot of difference between "Controlled
aggression" and "Violence".
And there are situations that require violence to resolve them.
SNIP
> I believe we were discussing lack of respect?
No, you were discussing interpretations of the
Dojo Kun.
Brad.
Shawn Jefferson
On 15 Jan 1998 02:41:58 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst), inspired by
the Dojo Kun wrote:
>Listen, I don't know much. But neither do all of you. A martial artist is
>supposed to:
>
>Strive for perfection of character.
>Defend the paths of truth.
>Foster a spirit of effort.
>Honor the principles of etiquette.
>and
>Guard against impetuous courage.
Come on, this stuff is for kids. It's almost insulting to have someone
tell me how to conduct myself in society...
>points. A science that was created 3000 years ago with people who most of us
>don't associate with traditional karate. Because of the secrecy of the early
>masters (and I'm sure you've all heard this too) many different, powerful
>techniques were lost over time. And to pick apart some poor Kyu ranking by
>veritably insulting him and his instructor is a bunch of bullshit in my ever so
>humble opinion.
WHAT?!?!? The 'masters of yesterday' knew how to use the body to attack
someone, BETTER than we do now? There is only a limited number of ways to
use the human body to hurt another human body. You're repeating without
thinking... AND you call it a 'science' 3000 years old?
ugh.
---
Shawn Jefferson (sjef...@direct.ca)
President, Dojokun Preservation Society - Canadian Chapter
Shawn Jefferson
On 15 Jan 1998 20:42:02 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst), inspired by
the Dojo Kun wrote:
>Nothing's wrong with loyalty, but you can be blind to anothers loyalty being
>returned. Sometime I misjudge people for little things, I wouldn't call it
>assuming their personality type... It can be difficult, I usually come out of
>it as better friends though. Be loyal to your family and friends, and those
>BadenHurst
Wow! I think maybe Mark has some competition in the vague ramblings
category of the monthly AMAKS awards!
Shawn Jefferson
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:28:57 -0500, ^v^@amaks.com, inspired by the Dojo Kun
wrote:
>You just have to remember, there can be no standard for these things.
>Do you refer to Elmar as Dr. Schmeisser, Mr. Schmeisser, Elmar, or Dr.
>Bunkai?
I pefer Dr. Bunkai. Makes me think of him as the evil character in a 007
flick.
DevonErik
George Winter wrote:
>On 13 Jan 1998 06:03:49 GMT, devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>
>>George Winter wrote:
>>
>>>See above. To your ownself be true.
>>
>>That's what you say. Others try to interpret this to me as loyalty to this
>or
>>that. No way. I decide who I'm loyal to.
>>
>so "be loyal" should be dropped
My point was that the fact that the dojo kun is open to interpretation leads
not to individual interpretation, but to people using it to say things like "be
loyal" (to your great sensei, to your wonderful org., etc.).
>>>?? Your dojo encourages bullying or thuggish behaviour - again I
>>>suggest you find a better dojo.
>>
>>No, it doesn't. But we spend all day studying how to hit people, and then
>try
>>to say we're not violent? Oh, please.
>>
>No that is exacly what I am saying. When I practice with a partner I
>am thinking about the technique, the intended effect, & making sure
>the other person is not injured whether he blocks or not.
Is that *really* a result of chanting the dojo kun? Of of being given a good
example by those who trained you?
>Karate constitutes a little society & can influence behavior. Most
>noticibly during class (as we all know), but outside it as well. After
>all that is why it is worth discussing this at all.
Possibly yes. But how does the dojo kun figure into this?
>>> It is the rare individual who
>>>bucks the mores of his society & decides his own morality.
>>
>>Not so. I encounter them every day.
>>
>That doesen't make them any more common :=)
Well, yes, in fact, it does. It's a lot more common than most people
think...mostly when following "the rules" forces them into a position which is
insupportable.
>to restate my point, everyday Karate etiquette has the furthest
>reaching effect on karate students. This is what transmits much of the
>"Karate Kult" mindset. This is the element I consider dangerous not
>the Kun, because I think that chanted slogans get little mind-share.
>You chant them, you don't live them. Might as well use the japanese.
My point exactly. Why chant slogans? Most people say it like they're reciting
their grocery list anyway. Why do it at all?
Michael Lamertz
Karateka63 wrote:
>
> ... I'm just a shodan, ...
What happened to the nice habit not to post your rank in this group?
It's not only your's, but one or two other messages that I've read
lately.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
- Mike
--
Michael Lamertz | lam...@koeln.netsurf.de
Siebengebirgsallee 1 | http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~Michael.Lamertz
50939 Cologne | Priv: +49 221 445420
Germany | Work: +49 221 59700-78
Karateka63
>What happened to the nice habit not to post your rank in this group?
>It's not only your's, but one or two other messages that I've read
>lately.
>
>
Sorry ...I'll I missed that one....
Bruce
Michael Lamertz
Badenhurst wrote:
>
> <yadda, yadda, yadda snip> It's not the
> words, but the spirit used to say them
Oh yeah! And it's not the art but the artist, huhuuuuuu! <ROTFL>
Steven K. Shapiro
Howdy!
So what's the bottom line?
Am I (me personally) a better or worse person if I do or do not know the dojo
kun?
Shawn Jefferson
On 17 Jan 1998 03:32:26 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst), inspired by
the Dojo Kun wrote:
>You keep citing books and leave the language up to the people that grew up with
>it. Ten levels.... do you know what that means, the word "a" could mean "a"
>but in conjunction with some other seemingly insignificant line-stroke, it
>could mean beauty. And not just beauty, but all the connotations that come
>along with it, ancient stories passed down, understood meanings. Just as we
>attach these connotations in english, the japanese attach it to almost every
>part of their speech. I however am not a major in the subject (say,
>"Obviously", go ahead, i will laugh) I'm just saying you have no clue... no
>fucking clue. and although I am not bilingual, you are not deep, or bilingual.
> THat's two strikes to my one. And don't say I'm full of intellectual hokum
>either, maybe you just don't want to spend the time to comprehend things.
Paragraph better, please! You are the one who really doesn't have a clue,
but for some reason you seem to think that you do. That is why we have all
this crap in karate in the first place. How can a WORD in japanese carry
'connotations' ANY different than english?
IT CAN'T! We don't attach meaning to words in ENGLISH? Just because their
language uses a different way of writing, doesn't mean it is some kind of
mystical imaging system for their language.
I can't believe this paragraph was even put into the physical world. It
should have stayed in your brain, and undergone more refinement. In the
future, think about what you are going to say for longer than 2 nanoseconds
before you commit it to the electrons.
>Christian, hah, what powers of assumption. I do not live by criticizing
>others, In fact, very soon I am going to drop this scurge you call a newsgroup,
>i don't like the guy who runs it.
Ahhhh, please don't! Your nuggets of wisdom have been sorely missing in
the past... (Actually, we seem to get one of YOU a month in here, but they
get bored of preaching to a deaf audience.)
Shawn Jefferson
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:43:32 GMT, andr...@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Andrew),
inspired by the Dojo Kun wrote:
>. who, although basically full of shit,
>
>Not a very nice thing to say about the man who got you interested in
>the cult you are now following
This happens a lot. We look up to someone, or follow their
'ways/knowledge' until we grow enough to realize that what they were
telling/showing us wasn't exactly true. So we go out on our own, in search
of more knowledge.
Isn't that why you read this group?
An example: I was interested in karate (because of Bruce Lee and an
erroneous thought that karate would make me cool, haha) and needed to find
a school to go to.
Well, I talked to a guy (friends sister's boyfriend) who had a 2nd dan
black belt at a karate school I never heard of, really close by. He even
showed me his LAMINATED SECOND DAN card with his picture on it. Cool! I
thought.
Well, I got to the school, and I am still there. It is a good school (it
does have its shortcomings though) compared to what else I had available.
But the weird thing is.... That this guy was NEVER there. He would pop in
once in a while and stretch in the back for five minutes and then leave.
The club NEVER gave him a second dan, and has NEVER given laminated cards!
So, through someone who was a compulsive liar (he really was I later found
out) I found a good school and art.
Roshan Mamarvar
Gerald H. Bush IV wrote:
> =Nope, belief systems are unique to the individual, I can disagree, but I cannot
> =tell someone what is right and wrong.
>
> Wow ... uh ... then why .. uh ... hmmmmmmm ... never mind. Must be a Euro thing.
>
> =And please quit making this subject less interesting by attacking me and my
> =character, this political mud slinging doesn't work on the net. (at least not
> =for the reasonable.)
>
> UH OH .. wants to call people "stupid americans" .. <I really don't feel like
> going back through all the posts again to pull out the 5 references at least
> that I know are there......> and now accuses Rob of attacking his character.
> Idiot.
I guess I missed something here... From where do you get, he is
european,
and what exactly is a "Euro thing" ?
Btw., I am european, too, and if I remember right, there are at least
as many american nerds posting BS into this newsgroup as europeans.
Roshan
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roshan Mamarvar Bochum / Germany
Homepage: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/index.htm
Karate: http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Roshan.Mamarvar/Karate.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Badenhurst
>
>UH OH .. wants to call people "stupid americans" .. <I really don't feel like
>going back through all the posts again to pull out the 5 references at least
>
>Then what the hell are you talking about? You idiot you have been making this
>huge deal over a Japanese document that was meant for school children and how
>it
>should be inviolate because that is the crap that you were spoon fed from a
Man, I thought my "tone" was bad in real life.
Listen, I don't know much. But neither do all of you. A martial artist is
supposed to:
Strive for perfection of character.
Defend the paths of truth.
Foster a spirit of effort.
Honor the principles of etiquette.
and
Guard against impetuous courage.
Rob Redmond does not display these qualities in my ever so humble opinion.
(Which usually comes out not so humble.) But you can't be on the net without
being bombastic. (and I'm not saying "now that i've got your attention, I'll
be nice and cute and fuzzy because you talk good shit.") I'm just fed up with
people that assume they know much about martial arts to it's most intricate
points. A science that was created 3000 years ago with people who most of us
don't associate with traditional karate. Because of the secrecy of the early
masters (and I'm sure you've all heard this too) many different, powerful
techniques were lost over time. And to pick apart some poor Kyu ranking by
veritably insulting him and his instructor is a bunch of bullshit in my ever so
humble opinion.
Live the words as a martial artist, don't claim you are the greatest fighter,
because there's always someone better. (They're cliche's for a reason.)
God exists, maybe I'm too much of an idealist. (Like Marx)
BadenHurst
Badenhurst
>Oh yeah! And it's not the art but the artist, huhuuuuuu! <ROTFL>
I'm sure you've read the Hunger Artist by Kafka. The artist is his art, a
truth we find in life, we are consumed by our karate and it often forces us to
hate others or ourselves. When we get past this hate, (we have usually been
studying for some time) we tend to look at life as more of a game, or an
adventure. Each moment should become precious to us, a love for every living
thing should be instilled within us. (Ideally)
BadenHurst
Andrew
On 15 Jan 1998 baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) chanted to the sound
of one hand clapping:
..Listen, I don't know much. But neither do all of you.
..A martial artist is supposed to:
..Strive for perfection of character.
..Defend the paths of truth.
..Foster a spirit of effort.
..Honor the principles of etiquette.
..and
..Guard against impetuous courage.
.. I'm just fed up with people that assume they know much about martial arts to it's most intricate
..points. A science that was created 3000 years ago
..Live the words as a martial artist, don't claim you are the greatest fighter,
..because there's always someone better.
..God exists, maybe I'm too much of an idealist.
Very good, Badenhurst. You have learned that which you have been
required to learn, and have regurgitated it in the approved manner.
We are all *very* impressed, and feel that you have a great future in
the company. Keep up the good work.
Regards
Andrew
Richard Frazier
On 15 Jan 1998 02:41:58 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>Listen, I don't know much.
This has become painfully obvious from your previous posts.
>But neither do all of you. A martial artist is
>supposed to:
>
>Strive for perfection of character.
>Defend the paths of truth.
>Foster a spirit of effort.
>Honor the principles of etiquette.
>and
>Guard against impetuous courage.
Suppose to? Says who? You? Some dead Okinawan <sp?> guy that lived
in a turn of the century imperial culture? Yea, ok.
>But you can't be on the net without
>being bombastic. (and I'm not saying "now that i've got your attention, I'll
>be nice and cute and fuzzy because you talk good shit.")
Hmmm... that is strange but it seems that this newgroup is filled with
people who are "on the net" and don't exhibit bombastic behavior.
Maybe they aren't actually "on the net." In fact, maybe they don't
even know shotokan, or any martial-art for that matter. Hey, maybe
they are a bunch of sea monkeys that have keyboards and are trying to
undermine the very fabric of our nation! Damn, let me switch over to
alt.conspiracies while I'm on a roll.
>I'm just fed up with
>people that assume they know much about martial arts to it's most intricate
>points.
Fed up or just jealous?
>A science that was created 3000 years ago with people who most of us
>don't associate with traditional karate.
Define this science. What is it called? Who is considered it's
"founder" or "father?" Is there a recognized institution that handles
accreditation? Can I join?
>Because of the secrecy of the early
>masters (and I'm sure you've all heard this too) many different, powerful
>techniques were lost over time.
We should have a file on the most common folklore, myths, and legends.
>Live the words as a martial artist, don't claim you are the greatest fighter,
>because there's always someone better. (They're cliche's for a reason.)
Where do you pull this stuff from? And do monkey fly from there?
^v^
Rick
Appointed Keeper of the One True Book of Netiquette
GrandMaster of The Secret Order of the ^v^
And Doler of Frivolous Castigations
Richard Frazier
On 15 Jan 1998 03:04:39 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>I'm sure you've read the Hunger Artist by Kafka.
Why would you be sure of anything?
>The artist is his art, a
>truth we find in life, we are consumed by our karate and it often forces us to
>hate others or ourselves.
we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Probably not, but I'll bet
you do have a membership card to freaks-r-us, World HQ, Gooberville,
USA.
>When we get past this hate, (we have usually been
>studying for some time) we tend to look at life as more of a game, or an
>adventure.
<commando mode>
Life is not a game.
The war starts tomorrow.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
It's all small stuff.
</commando mode>
blah, blah, blah.
DevonErik
Brad Webb wove:
>Well Devon, I echo George's emotional idealism, sentiment,
>what-have-you. Even though there are still problems ...
>"Respect" is another set I don't like, but less intensely
>than "Faith". It (and others) are equally easy to vitiate.
>Such as the phrase "Observe Proper Etiquitte"... who defines
>proper etiquitte?
>
I agree with you in principle here. I believe that *ettiquette* is very
important (respect is earned). But I refuse to accept a lecture on ettiquette
from the typical karate instructor I have seen, an arrogant, self-important
individual, with no genuine concern for his students except as a continued
source of income.
>How long has it been since you've started a fight on a street corner?
>And I'm sure that you are carrying a loaded handgun in the car for
>those touching moments on the LA Freeways, right?
>There's a hell of a lot of difference between "Controlled
>aggression" and "Violence".
>And there are situations that require violence to resolve them.
Most people don't make this distinction this way. Violent action, however
justified or neccessary, is still termed "violence". This could be made more
clear.
DevonErik
reallyBA...@aol.com wrote:
>Listen, I don't know much.
Obviously.
> But neither do all of you.
You haven't the faintest idea what we know or don't, and you certainly haven't
bothered to listen and find out.
> A martial artist is
>supposed to:
>
>Strive for perfection of character.
>Defend the paths of truth.
>Foster a spirit of effort.
>Honor the principles of etiquette.
>and
>Guard against impetuous courage.
Supposed by who? Did somebody come along and make a set of rules while I
wasn't looking?
>Rob Redmond does not display these qualities in my ever so humble opinion.
You come to this conclusion how?
>But you can't be on the net without
>being bombastic.
Wrong. Dead wrong. Maybe *you* can't be on the net without spewing a gout of
pompous, ill-informed verbiage, but others do not have this problem.
> (and I'm not saying "now that i've got your attention, I'll
>be nice and cute and fuzzy because you talk good shit.")
No, you're saying: "It looks like I'm out on a limb here, so I'll try to walk
a fine line between backing down and saving face."
> I'm just fed up with
>people that assume they know much about martial arts to it's most intricate
>points.
I assume there are no mirrors in your home?
>A science that was created 3000 years ago with people who most of us
>don't associate with traditional karate. Because of the secrecy of the early
>masters (and I'm sure you've all heard this too) many different, powerful
>techniques were lost over time.
More myths you were spoon-fed when you were too new to know the difference.
Time to take a critical look around you and start thinking for yourself.
DevonErik
Michael wrote:
>Karateka63 wrote:
>>
>> ... I'm just a shodan, ...
>
>What happened to the nice habit not to post your rank in this group?
>It's not only your's, but one or two other messages that I've read
>lately.
>
>Tsk, tsk, tsk.
>
SirCl...@aol.com does not seem to have read this marvelous document, this
boon to humanity and civilization, this savior of sanity and life itself, which
we call the AMAKS FAQ.
{You have clearance to launch the weapon}
[hum of bay doors opening]
<FAQ emailed>
Michael Lamertz
Steven K. Shapiro wrote:
>
> Howdy!
>
> So what's the bottom line?
>
> Am I (me personally) a better or worse person if I do or do not know the dojo
> kun?
Darn Steven, would your message needs some quoting. I even don't know
if this message was really meant for me, but it's displayed nicely
nested below mine in my newsreader.
A. I was replying to 'badenhurst'
B. I was referring to the stupid and mystified sniplet below:
"It's not the words, but the spirit used to say them"
What the h*ll! This has nothing to do with the Dojo-Kun. It's a stupid
thing to state, regardless to what writing you apply it!
Why has anybody cared writing it down, when it's not the words, huh?
Sadly we yet don't have the PSI-Compiler to dump our state of mind onto
harddisk. This would have spared us this discussion.
> Am I (me personally) a better or worse person if I do or do not know the
> dojo kun?
Actually, I couldn't care less. It's not important wether or not you
decide to follow some ancient ethical rules, that come from a completely
different cultureal context, as long as you also follow the rules that
come with today's life: Don't smack other people's heads, pay for your
food, stuff like that.
Mike
Michael Lamertz
Michael Lamertz wrote:
>
> Darn Steven, would your message needs some quoting.
And that=======^^^^^ happens, if one reworks the sentence too often %-)
DevonErik
Baden...@aol.com took my breath away with the following words of foolishness:
>Hey, we don't need to pick apart the dojo Kun,
We don't need to examine our beliefs?
> maybe you just don't have the
>mental capacity to accept shortened expressions of the same idea.
I should certainly hope I don't have the "mental capacity" to accept slogans in
place of thought.
> It's not the
>words, but the spirit used to say them and an acute understanding of what
>connotations a small phrase could accually include.
Doesn't that imply "picking them apart"?
George Winter
On 15 Jan 1998 03:04:39 GMT, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>we are consumed by our karate and it often forces us to
>hate others or ourselves.
What? Seek counseling. You do not need karate you need professional
help. What aspect of karate makes you hate anything. As for self hate,
at best there is a frustration with your own limitations.
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <19980115024...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>Listen, I don't know much. But neither do all of you. A martial artist is
>supposed to:
>
>Strive for perfection of character.
>Defend the paths of truth.
>Foster a spirit of effort.
>Honor the principles of etiquette.
>and
>Guard against impetuous courage.
Says YOU!
Why am I SUPPOSED to do this? Because someone tells me that I am? You dictate
as though this is the word of law, but it is not. And why do you limit it to
just a martial artist? If this was valid, shouldn't EVERYONE be supposed to
abide by it?
Based on YOUR posts and retorts to various messages I have read, it appears
that YOU DO NOT abide by these items which you profess that everyone else is
supposed to abide by.
Does this mean that you are a hippocrite? I think so.
According to you we are supposed to (3 of 5):
>Foster a spirit of effort.
>Honor the principles of etiquette.
>Guard against impetuous courage.
You have violated each of these items just while posting in this newsgroup
alone.
Apparently you haven't learned your lessons very well.
>Rob Redmond does not display these qualities in my ever so humble opinion.
Hah! The pot calling the kettle black. (And I am no Bob Redmond apologist,
believe that!).
>God exists, maybe I'm too much of an idealist. (Like Marx)
You compare yourself to Marx?
Which one? Groucho or Harpo?
Maybe if it were more like Harpo we would see a lot less of your diatribe.
George Winter
On 15 Jan 1998 08:14:08 GMT, devo...@aol.com (DevonErik) wrote:
>
> Most people don't make this distinction this way. Violent action, however
>justified or neccessary, is still termed "violence". This could be made more
>clear.
It should not be made more clear, you don't understand the word.
I am violently offended that you chose to do violence to the language
we both speak, which I think should remain inviolat.
If you *use* karate on someone it is violence, but practicing karate
is not.
Main Entry: vi·o·lence
Pronunciation: 'vI-&-l&n(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in
effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent
treatment or procedure
2 : injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation :
OUTRAGE
3 a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or
force <the violence of the storm> b : vehement feeling or expression :
FERVOR; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or
jarring quality : DISCORDANCE
4 : undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)
Steven K. Shapiro
In article <19980115030...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, baden...@aol.com (Badenhurst) wrote:
>I'm sure you've read the Hunger Artist by Kafka. The artist is his art, a
>truth we find in life, we are consumed by our karate and it often forces us to
>hate others or ourselves.
Sure, go and get existential.
But when you come back to the real world you find that this is not the case.
Steven K. Shapiro
>> Am I (me personally) a better or worse person if I do or do not know the dojo
>> kun?
>
>Darn Steven, would your message needs some quoting. I even don't know
>if this message was really meant for me, but it's displayed nicely
>nested below mine in my newsreader.
I was not addressing it to anyone in particular. It was an open, general
question based upon the discussions which have transpired in this thread.
>Actually, I couldn't care less. It's not important wether or not you
>decide to follow some ancient ethical rules, that come from a completely
>different cultureal context, as long as you also follow the rules that
>come with today's life: Don't smack other people's heads, pay for your
>food, stuff like that.
Bingo.
This is exactly my point. I am as ethical as I choose to be regardless of my
familiarity or awareness of some ancient chant.
When I read something which purports morality, I evaluate it based upon my
moral compass and determine whether or not it is valid within my morals.
I do not read something which purports morality and decide that this is what
my morality should be.
You learn morality not by words but by deeds. If you grew up with moral
parents, you would see that by their deeds and you would grow up accordingly,
instilled with the morality they demonstrate. If your parents were immoral,
you would tend to be an immoral person.
In either case, you would have to decide to alter your moral compass were you
to decide to become more or less moral.
I would rather see my Sensei act as a moral person in his professional and
personal life than hear him espouse the dojo kun mantra in class.