The Ventures
Mike Arcidiacono
BigStar303 wrote in message
<199807062148...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Tom Kelley wrote:
>
>>>I doubt they are the World's #1 Instrumental Group, at least not based on
any
>actual taste in music.
>
>
Quite obviously, Tom is not a big fan of instro music, because if he was,
then he would have known:
1) The Ventures are the best selling, best known, most famous instrumental
group in the world. They have sold over 300 million records in their career.
this makes them THE NUMBER ONE INSTRUMENTAL GROUP in the world.
2) The Ventures charted the singles charts 17 times, the most of any
instrumental group in the United States. In the UK, The Shadows have had
more hits, but ONLY in the UK, The Ventures still lead outside of it.
3) The Ventures have influenced more musicians than any other instrumental
group, including the Shadows. The Shadows music, with all the horns, strings
and orchestral arrangements made it tough for beginning players to learn.
The Ventures, however, were pure guitar-bass-drums, and therefore became the
role models.
4) Virtually every Ventures album is SPLIT between originals and covers. To
say The Ventures were a rip off band is simply ignorant and shows no
understanding of the groups catalouge. Many of The Ventures originals are so
good, they would have been top 40 charters in their own right. Liberty
Records, however had a marketing plan for The Ventures and it worked
fantastically thruout the '60s.
5) The Ventures have the most original, recognizable sound of any instro
group, before or since.
Lets give this group what they have proved for 40 years....The Ventures are
the number one instro group in the world.
Mikey
BigStar303
Tom Kelley wrote:
>>I doubt they are the World's #1 Instrumental Group, at least not based on any
actual taste in music.
The Ventures might be one of the world's greatest instrumental version cover
bands. They made their name ripping off the latest thing instead of actually
creating any lasting or important new music. Now, they're cashing in on the
"Let's get the group back together" movement. More power to the dollar!<<
I disagree. While I have no particular use for the endless parade of Ventures
albums from the mid-60s on -- when they simply did instrumental versions of the
latest Top 40 hits -- their career prior to that was an interesting one.
It's true that they didn't write "Walk Don't Run," but who really remembers the
jazz version from the 50s? It's true they didn't write "Slaughter on 10th
Avenue," but who else would have thought to revive a 30s song and give it such
a unique treatment.
It's true that Dick Dale may have originated a lot of the sounds we associate
with instrumental "surf music." But I can tell you that Dale was virtually
unknown except in California...the rest of the country came to know that sound
through The Ventures.
Most of all, I can tell you that Tom Kelley has never in his life listened to
"The Ventures In Space" -- the greatest guitar instrumental album ever made by
anyone (which also, by the way, contains several original Ventures
compositions).
If he had, he would never have made such a statement as the one above. And if
The Ventures are not "the World's #1 Instrumental Group," then who, pray tell,
is?
Regina Litman
Mike Arcidiacono wrote:
>
> Quite obviously, Tom is not a big fan of instro music, because if he was,
> then he would have known:
>
> 1) The Ventures are the best selling, best known, most famous instrumental
> group in the world. They have sold over 300 million records in their career.
> this makes them THE NUMBER ONE INSTRUMENTAL GROUP in the world.
>
> 2) The Ventures charted the singles charts 17 times, the most of any
> instrumental group in the United States. In the UK, The Shadows have had
> more hits, but ONLY in the UK, The Ventures still lead outside of it.
>
> 3) The Ventures have influenced more musicians than any other instrumental
> group, including the Shadows. The Shadows music, with all the horns, strings
> and orchestral arrangements made it tough for beginning players to learn.
> The Ventures, however, were pure guitar-bass-drums, and therefore became the
> role models.
>
> 4) Virtually every Ventures album is SPLIT between originals and covers. To
> say The Ventures were a rip off band is simply ignorant and shows no
> understanding of the groups catalouge. Many of The Ventures originals are so
> good, they would have been top 40 charters in their own right. Liberty
> Records, however had a marketing plan for The Ventures and it worked
> fantastically thruout the '60s.
>
> 5) The Ventures have the most original, recognizable sound of any instro
> group, before or since.
>
> Lets give this group what they have proved for 40 years....The Ventures are
> the number one instro group in the world.
Thanks for providing the defense of the Ventures - you said it better
than I did.
Now that you've said that The Shadows' records contained what is implied
to be a lot of horns, strings, and orchestral arrangements, my desire to
hear them has somewhat been moved to the back burner. But thanks to
those who emailed me offering ways for me to hear them. The Ventures
themselves got too brassy and added too much orchestration in later
years, as I'm discovering from the CDs I've been buying lately. One of
their most recent CD reissues on the One Way label is that of an album
called "Rocky Road". I would have to say right now that this is my
least favorite Ventures album (my 2nd least favorite is the one with
Bobby Vee that I got on a One Way CD last year). I would retitle it
"Dance, Don't Run".
Incidentally, as someone who does not like shortened words, how long has
"instro" been around as a bastardization of "instrumental"? I never saw
or heard it until I read the otherwise fine book "The Golden Age of Rock
Instrumentals" by Otfinoski that I referred to in another message. It
drove me crazy to see this word!
I just sent an email to myself at work that I need to send on to
co-workers whose work email addresses I don't have at home. I can't
wait to mark it "For Your Information" instead of "FYI" that everyone
else uses.
BigStar303
Dennis wrote:
>> Pete Townsend referred to "Ventures In Space" (all original material) as one
of the most influential rock albums ever recorded.<<
I love this album dearly, and have done since I got it for my 13th birthday in
1965. But for the sake of accuracy, it is not "all original material." It has,
among others, "Out of Limits" and "The Twilight Zone" theme, as well as the
main title from the movie "Fear" and assorted other tracks by outside writers.
But the originals that are there are very good, and they include my favorite
Ventures song of all time, "He Never Came Back."
and...@webtv.net
Andy Moore
DWB
Thanks for correcting me, although right after I posted my message,
I realized the same thing ("Penetration", "Out Of Limits"??...obviously
they didn't write these, or several others on the LP, but I must say
that their version on here of "Penetration" is really a killer... I
had forgotten how great Mel Taylor's drumming was on this!).
I AM glad to see that there are several others on this group who
realize just how great this album was (and IS), and are aware of the
Venture's catalog. There is an organized effort going on right now
to get them inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame.
visit: http://www.geocities.com/~sandcastle/venture.htm
for full information.
BTW, one of MY favorite tracks, which still blows me away everytime
I listen to it, is "Scratchin'" from "The Fabulous Ventures". If
you haven't played it in awhile, give it a listen.
Dennis
Don Leighty
Grateful Dead (in Goldmine?), in which he talked about how much
the "Ventures In Space" album influenced the Dead.
DWB wrote:
>
> Thanks for correcting me, although right after I posted my message,
> I realized the same thing ("Penetration", "Out Of Limits"??...
> obviously they didn't write these, or several others on the LP, but I
> must say that their version on here of "Penetration" is really a
> killer... I had forgotten how great Mel Taylor's drumming was on
> this!).
> I AM glad to see that there are several others on this group who
> realize just how great this album was (and IS), and are aware of the
> Venture's catalog. There is an organized effort going on right now
> to get them inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame.
> visit: http://www.geocities.com/~sandcastle/venture.htm
> for full information.
> BTW, one of MY favorite tracks, which still blows me away everytime
> I listen to it, is "Scratchin'" from "The Fabulous Ventures". If
> you haven't played it in awhile, give it a listen.
> Dennis
--
Best Wishes,
Don Leighty <cl...@westol.com>
"I'm not on anybody's food chain."
BigStar303
>>Actually, I'm quite familiar with all of their music.<<
Really? Then why would you have made this statement in your first post?
>>The Ventures might be one of the world's greatest instrumental version cover
bands. They made their name ripping off the latest thing instead of actually
creating any lasting or important new music.<<
This is categorically incorrect. The Ventures first "made their name" with
"Walk Don't Run," a song that dated back to the mid-50s and that was recorded
in a completely different style (smooth jazz) than the treatment The Ventures
gave to it.
Their next success, "Perfidia," was a song that dated back to 1941. I don't
know enough about the history of surf music to know if theirs was the first
surf treatment of this song or not. But I do know that it was the only one to
make the national charts.
As I pointed out, a later success was with "Slaughter on 10th Avenue," which
dates back to the 30s. Not exactly "ripping off the latest thing" there,
either.
As for "creating any lasting or important new music," we've already had several
citations from other musicians that suggests that "The Ventures In Space" had a
profound influence on them. But you've ignored this example as well.
>>Being worshiped as gods in Japan also isn't saying much.<<
I'd really love to hear your explanation of just what this statement is
supposed to mean.
b.r.curtis
<michae...@usa.net> wrote:
>this is a little of topic but the first recorded song to use a fuzz sound was
>"Rocket 88" recorded in 1951 by the Kings of Rhythm, which btw the leader of
>the group was Ike Turner, they were headed to Sam Phillips studio when they got
>pulled over by a cop and when they stopped an amplifer fell of the roof of the
>car and busted the speaker cone, when they got to the studio they stuffed paper
>into the crack of the speaker cone and recorded "Rocket 88", if you can track
>it down, it's well worth a listen. Okay this is alot off topic, sorry
>
>Ernie Garner wrote:
>
>> Steve Cobham wrote in message <35a13919.51209380@news>...
>>
>> snip
>>
>> >Also, weren't the Ventures the first band
>> >to use a fuzzbox on a release? "1000 Pound Bee", if my memory is
>> >correct.
>>
>> I heard that the first song to use fuzztone was "Don't Worry (About Me)".
>> If I remember right there is a guitar or bass solo in the middle. The guys
>> speaker blew out and they just went ahead and recorded it anyway.
[snip]
[newsgroup list trimmed]
This discussion probably should be in the '50s group, but the term
"Fuzztone" <tm> was used -- fuzz boxes (electronic distortion devices
manufactured by several companies) were developed in the sixties and
their use continues.
The explanation I heard about the fuzz sound on "Don't Worry" was that
one of the two power tubes in the guitar amplifier was removed. This
caused the remaining tube to struggle mightily to provide the
amplified signal the rest of the system expected -- hence a very
over-driven sound (admittedly an approximate technical description).
This techinque was developed by Chet Atkins and/or Les Paul -- quite
by accident as I understand it. After that record, Ann-Margret
released "I Just Can't Understand" (if that's not the title, it is at
least the hook lyric) which used a similar distorted-guitar sound.
Don't know how the Ventures got the fuzz sound on their record, but it
probably was a fuzz box of some kind.
While not exactly "fuzztone," legend has it that Link Wray got his
unique sound by punching holes in his speakers with a screwdriver, and
by using extremely old guitar strings. I'm sure his love of chili
also contributed.
--Barry
Bob Roman
> And if
> The Ventures are not "the World's #1 Instrumental Group," then who, pray tell,
> is?
-- Booker T & the MGs, of course.
Bob Roman
Rhinehart
> >
> > -- Booker T & the MGs, of course.
>
Nah. Ever hear them play something that your kid sister couldn't do with a
little time at the Wurlitzer? Sure, nobody's been able to reproduce
Cropper's work on Green Onions, but really, now. . .can you compare even
the Ventures worst efforts with something like Time Is Tight?
Bwahahahahaha.
Did you see them on the Dylan's Thirtieth Anniversary concert album?
*That* was certainly a high point.
Even when theyre joking around the Leningrad Cowboys do better work.
As for The Ventures, they're da best. That rhythm guitar in Walk Don't Run
(#1) would have sold records even without the drums, bass, etc. Of course,
in the sixties, they could get away with stuff like redoing Stranger In
Paradise and calling it "Ten Seconds To Heaven."
As for musical ability, listen when some of the real pros try copying their
style: case in point: Bugs Henderson once tried to copy the Ventures'
version of Slaughter and it came out sounding like the kid next door with
his new Mexican strat.
The Ventures were the best instrumental band around; Deal with it.
-Rhinehart.
Bob Roman
>
> > >
> > > -- Booker T & the MGs, of course.
> >
> > Amen!
>
> really, now. . .can you compare even
> the Ventures worst efforts with something like Time Is Tight?
No. Nor their best.
Bob Roman
T P Uschanov
> Even when theyre joking around the Leningrad Cowboys do better work.
As a Finn, I must admit to being deeply ashamed to see
the Leningrad Cowboys compared to Booker T. & the MGs.
I probably would have been ashamed even if you had compared the
latter with Laika & the Cosmonauts, but not as much.
> The Ventures were the best instrumental band around; Deal with it.
Is there some sort of gauge for measuring bestness of
instrumental bands? May I take a look at it in that case?
--
"I have tried too, in my time, to be a philosopher; but, I don't
know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in." --Oliver Edwards
T P Uschanov tusc...@cc.helsinki.fi +358 (0)40 584 2720
Visit my home page! http://www.helsinki.fi/~tuschano/
Rhinehart
>
> As a Finn, I must admit to being deeply ashamed to see
> the Leningrad Cowboys compared to Booker T. & the MGs.
> I probably would have been ashamed even if you had compared the
> latter with Laika & the Cosmonauts, but not as much.
>
Estonia, I think the Leningrad Cowboyss *can* be compared with Booker and
the guys. Ever listen to Through the Wire? Extraordinary song that pretty
much blows away the competition. And yes, Laika is a hell of a band with a
great sense of humor that nails the space genre perfectly. But for complex
structures, tasty licks and damn fine performances, The Ventures are right
up there. As for my instrumental cool gauge mentioned earlier: If you can
identify the song by the first NOTE (Hard Days Night, Slaughter On Tenth
Avenue, etc) and it still sounds good--it's a classy band. Rock doesn't
have to be limited to four chords, ya know.
BTW, if you're a Finn, you must admit the Cowboy's/Sleepers are a unique
group--who else would team up with the Red Army Chorus to do Happy
Together? Who else would hire a Brit to sound like a Louisiana Cajun
singing Tex Mex? Too damn bad the only place you can buy that album is at
Stockmanns.
Quit complaining. Your bands up there are better than you'd probably care
to admit.
-Rhinehart.
Kanno, Toru
Someone> > > How much of their music have you actually listened to?
Someone> > > They're worshipped as gods in Japan;
I had avoided to comment on the Ventures as there are
many Japanese experts, but no one here has posted yet.
On the social phenomena (in Japan) caused by the Ventures
I have an e-mail copy sent to Jyrki T. Ilva (Finland) in 1996.
Here I will quote it summarizing and deleting redundant parts.
<quote>
Yes, We had the controversy over the Ereki (electric guitar)
boom caused by the Ventures between 1965 and mid-1966.
Before the Ereki Boom took place, there were Hawaiian boom,
Country & Western boom, Rockabilly boom and Jazz boom.
And then, the Ereki boom permeated into the the lowteens and
soon into the highteens. It happened instantly all over the country,
and became a social problem.
Many school authorities and the Boards of Education would ban
youngsters from playing electric guitars, and participating in
"the ereki battle contests" sponsored by TV & radio stations.
First, on October 1965, the Board of Education in Ashikaga City
of Tochigi prefecture banned the junior high students from going
to ereki concerts, watching the ereki shows on TV, buying electric
guitars, forming the bands, and paticipating in band contests.
The reason is that the ereki music would lead to a juvenile
delinquency and cause noise pollution. This reasoning is illogical,
but in those days it had been talked seriously.
On October 24, Ashikaga City extended the subject from
junior high to high school sutudents. And other cities of
Osaka, Nara, Kobe, Nagoya, etc. followed and suspended
the use of public halls for Ereki concerts or contests.
A Toshiba record director in charge of promoting the Ventures said,
"The Boards of Education's reaction is wrong. It is their education
that is responsible for the juvenile delinquency. No problem
with the music."
The Board of Education in Asikaga City held a firm attitude, saying
"It is not normal to see the kids who sniff paint thinner and dance
in the concert halls. It affects their health, so we will strengthen
the control."
A Socialist Party politician said, "If we should conclude
that the instrument is the cause of the delinquency, it is
easy to exterminate the delinquency by just disposing the
instrument. A hasty thinking like this is dangerous in bringing
up the children."
The Ashikaga Police Department chief said, "It is really annoying
for other people than those who play guitars and do monkey dance.
Playing and dancing increase fatigue and prevent their
normal growth."
A traditional story teller comedian said, "The kids who like
the ereki guitar have good grades in school, for the music
stimulates a brain cell."
The Ventures' Walk Don't Run was released on November 1960
on Top Rank label from Victor Records, and failed to hit the charts.
According to Victor, they pressed only 3,000 copies of its title.
In 1962, their label was changed to Toshiba Liberty, and as part of
Liberty's promotional campaign, the Ventures (Don & Bob)
as a back-up band made their first visit here with Bobby Vee and
Jo-Ann Campbell.
Toshiba issued their first LP "Colorful Ventures," but did not sell well.
In 1964, they became popular with Walk Don't Run '64 and with
continuous hits of Pipeline, Diamond Head and Slaughter On Tenth Avenue.
These tunes along with the Astronauts' numbers triggered the Ereki boom.
In their 2nd visit and joint concerts in 1965 with the Astronauts,
the audience in Riki Sport Palace in Tokyo began to dance during the concert.
No one in Toshiba had expected to see the Japanese dancing in the concerts.
"The Ventures In Japan (Live)" LP sold 500,000 copies,
achieving a HISTORICAL SALES FIRST TIME BY FOREIGN ARTIST, not Elvis.
The office worker's average salary was yen 14,000 (US$140*),
and the LP's price was yen 1,200 (US$12*).
This LP was sold as a tutorial record to play the Ventures' style.
(*I don't remember which conversion rate I used.)
At the same time, 500,000 electric guitars were sold.
The number of guitar makers increased to 120, and even so,
they could not meet with the demand. Sewing machine makers and
woodworking plants joined this business.
Also, ereki contest on TV accelerated this boom.
There were 'Amateur Ereki Battle,' 'Ereki Tournament Show,'
'New Ereki Sound,' etc.
The Ventures' popularity and the Ereki boom gradually declined
after the Beatles' visit in 1966. However, the Japanese learned
to play themselves from the Ventures.
(When the Beatles held concerts in Tokyo, again the school authorities
banned from going there.)
<unquote>
Tom Kelley> > Actually, I'm quite familiar with all of their music.
Tom Kelley> > After being a fan for many years,
Tom Kelley> > I found that, for my taste, their music lacks the punch
Tom Kelley> > and intensity of many of the other groups of the time.
Tom Kelley> > Being worshiped as gods in Japan also isn't saying much.
I don't know they are still regarded as gods but they WERE admired
as a No.1 group. Next come, in terms of record sales, the Astronauts,
the Spotniks (of Sweden) and then the Sounds (of Finland) .
The Shadows were well-known with "Apache" and many Japanese amateur
bands imitated the playing style. But their "Spring Is Everywhere" only
made the charts.
AC> I agree with the very last statement. However, to say they lacked
AC> punch compared to other instrumental groups of the early 60's, who
AC> exactly do you have in mind? You could make a case for Dick Dale,
AC> I suppose, but I strongly recommend you have a listen to "Ventures
AC> In Space" (released in 1963) before you render any judgement.
Yes - Should listen to "SURFING" and "BOBBY VEE MEETS THE VENTURES"
albums, too.
--
Toru Kanno
su...@mars.dti.ne.jp