My skydiving accident
Surf Flite
It was a windy day (15-20 mph steady with 25 gusts). The dive was
uneventful until deployment time. At 2200 ft. I grabbed my hacky and
it was stuck. The 2nd attempt pulled it out a little. The 3rd attempt
I was able to throw it out. I was watching my deployment and as the
chute extracted it opened 180 out and slammed me. It flung me around
out of the single twist and the slider came slamming down faster than
I have ever experienced (Safire 149 loaded at 1.28) The slider fired
my right brake line and I began a hard right spiral. I immediately
reached up to unstow my left brake but the slider rings had stopped on
both toggles right between the upper and lower toggle stows. The
slider was flapping very hard from the high winds. I was unable to
unstow the brake. I was on about my 4th-5th revolution when I noticed
in my peripheral vision the ground. (This was about 5 seconds after
deployment.)It was close. It thought to myself, times up gotta chop it
and glanced at my alt and I was at ~700'-800'. At that point I made a
quick decision to not cutaway (probably a mistake but I felt I was
borderline on the altitude) By this time I was at 500' and still
spiraling to earth. I have to admit I remained fairly calm concidering
the problem at hand. Then I made probably another mistake. I reached
up and grabbed my left front riser dive loop and hung on it with both
hands. (In hindsight, I think the rear riser would have been a better
choice) I immediately started to fly straight. I then let go with 1
hand to try to unstow my left toggle but when I let go with 1 hand my
canopy started a hard right spiral again so I grabbed ahold with both
hands again. Then I got this feeling that I was getting really low. I
looked down and was ~75'-100' from the ground, the bushes were bent
over and I was heading directly downwind. I started to let off on the
left front riser to get it into the wind but I was too low and would
have hooked it in so at about 25' dedided to ride it in. My last
thought before impact was "I am either going to die or really get hurt
bad." I prepared for a PLF and put both feet together. They hit the
ground (that powdery, silty dirt that is famous in Eloy) both my feet
blew out in front of me and the next thing to hit was my ass. It felt
like a bolt of ligteneing hit me when my ass impacted. I bounced back
up about 6' in the air and everything turned to slow motiion from
there on. I remember as I was bouncing yelling "my back" and then I
hit again and tumbled to a stop laying on my left side. I was at the
south end of the runway a little west of the runway. I layed there and
was in a great deal of pain, not to mention that silty dirt had filled
my mouth and every other part of me. I, without thought, moved my leg,
then I tested my toes, legs,arms and fingers. Everything worked so I
just layed there frozen, afraid to move. I closed my eyes and just
hoped someone had seen me land. Within a minute I saw a jeep coming
across the desert towards me. It was a couple of jumpers who were
leaving the DZ and saw the whole thing from 100' on down. They had a
cantine with them so I rinsed out the dirt best I could and they had a
cell phone and called manifest. I guess Brian Burke had seen my canopy
out in the desert and was already on his way. I was ambulanced to Casa
Grande pumped full of Morphine and then air evaced to St. Joseph's
Neurological Institute in Phoenix. After 2 days and severe pain and
CAT scans and X-rays it was determined that I had a burst fracture of
my L2 vertibrae, a broken right and a spranged left ankle. My
vertibrae was crushed to about 43% of it original size. So on Wed. May
29th I underwent a 7 hour surgury to rebuild my back. They did a
T12-L3 fusion. Installed 12 pieces of titanium hardware. They had to
take part of my hip bone to rebuild to backbone then used cadaber bone
to fill in my hip bone. I have a 1 foot long incision from the small
of my back upward and another "J" shaped incision were they accessed
my hip bone. Needless to say the pain is really hard to deal with. The
1st 3 days after the surgery were the worst. Pain so severe that I
literally wished I would pass out so I wouldn't feel it. I spent 10
days in the hospital and am home now. I cannot get out of bed unless I
am wearing this clamshell brace for support. Each day I am getting
better but I still have times when the pain takes over. Mainly in the
mornings. I average about 3 hours sleep/day and just feel beat up in
general. I am able to get out of bed anywhere from 3-5 hours out of
the day. The 1st thing I did on my 1st walk at home was walk out to my
travel trailer and look at my ProTrack, it just seemed that I ran out
of altitude too fast. I looked at the ProTrack and it said 13,500 exit
(3 way flower to 7000 then all headdown playing), 69 second freefall,
deployment at 1100'!!! I guess that explains the lack of time. I was
on the ground no more than 20 seconds after deployment. You can look
at all my jumps and you will not find 1 below 2200' except this one. I
guess it was that hard pull that caused this. So as I reflect back on
all of this it is the typical accident. That is, not 1 thing went
wrong, but a series of events that when compiled lead to me nearly
dying. It started with a hard pull which resulted in a very low
deployment, followed by a parachute malfunction, compounded by a very
windy day, ending in a downwind landing while hanging on my left front
riser.
As for recovery, the doc says 2-3 months in the clamshell brace and 18
months to totally heal. Absolutely no skydiving until Dec. 2003.
Luckily I have good friends that I have met through this sport that
are helping me build skyboards and wakeboards. I already miss being in
the air and am having a hard time facing the reality of all this. But
as we all know it's the people in this sport that make it so great.
Thanks to everyone for your support and I will fly again someday!!!
Oh, did I mention that I did not pack my chute on this jump (another
mistake) I had a guy whom I have never had pack for me pack it. At 1st
I was really upset with him but now that the dust has settled I
realize that shit happenes and I in no way blame anyone for this
except myself. But I do think from now on I will be doing all of my
own pack jobs.
peace.
Kerry
Cricket202
you will get better soon!!!!
and fly the skies again!!
Mark Harju
Was" story I've read in a long time, especially your "lessons learned"
section. Thanks for sharing.
--
--------------------------------------
Opinions expressed are
not necessarily those of
The Boeing Company.
Please remove "NO-SPAM"
to reply.
Thanks!
"Surf Flite" <surf...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:d2a55ff9.02061...@posting.google.com...
Charlie K
Glad to hear your alive .. and even better walking !!!
Thank you for writing that down and posting it ... it's all to often we're
reading these analysis's about people who are no longer with us....
written by someone else !
Blue Skies & Never Give Up!
Charlie K
sitflyr
posting this so that
the rest of us can learn some lessons from what happened to you.
(BTW, I don't think it was a mistake to keep what you had at 700-800
feet----just my .02 worth.)
I hope that your recovery will become less painful.
Julie
> peace.
>
> Kerry
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Cricket202
number of jumps?
size/loading/type of canopy also?
CRWMike
I'm gratified to read you accept responsibility for this accident.
Personally, I would be more than a little pissed at the nurses who
allowed you to suffer recovery pain.
Healing just takes time. Use the time well and heal, brother.
Now, what would you have done differently (aside from hanging on the
front riser, that is :)? I hope there is a good general discussion on
this. Your experience is a good one for people to learn from. I have
some ideas and specific suggestions but for now, I'll toss it out for
comments. I'll try and catch up when I return as ...THEM TOADSUCKERS
are about to invade Delmarva.
BSBD,
Michael
D-6139
Darren G
> I'm gratified to read you accept responsibility for this accident.
> Personally, I would be more than a little pissed at the nurses who
> allowed you to suffer recovery pain.
>
> Healing just takes time. Use the time well and heal, brother.
>
> Now, what would you have done differently (aside from hanging on the
> front riser, that is :)? I hope there is a good general discussion on
> this. Your experience is a good one for people to learn from. I have
> some ideas and specific suggestions but for now, I'll toss it out for
> comments. I'll try and catch up when I return as ...THEM TOADSUCKERS
> are about to invade Delmarva.
>
> BSBD,
>
> Michael
> D-6139
When the discussion gets started, can someone translate 15-20mph into
knots for me? We use kph down here and I cant get a grip on how windy
15-20 mph is (and I dont have a conversion table). Im only guessing,
but it sounds reasonably strong to me.
Blue skies
Darren G
Kenneth Murphy
........KM
sitflyr
"Cricket202" <crick...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020618164044...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> interested to know more about you.
>
> number of jumps?
> size/loading/type of canopy also?
>
>
>
1.28.
Julie
A.K.A. - MORK
Surf Flite
> interested to know more about you.
>
> number of jumps?
> size/loading/type of canopy also?
298 jumps (150 this year), 6 RW, 280 FF, 9 hybrid and believe it or
not only 4 skysurfs. I just like to FF so much I'm willing to wait for
500 or so to take on that part of this sport.
Safire 149 since jump 47 loaded at 1:28 (when I started but more like
1.19 after I lost a few lbs. say the last 100 jumps or so.) I have
always felt comfortable with this canopy since I bought it. I have
only had 1 previous line twist on it and it was self induced from a
hard toggle turn under a perfectly good canopy.
Surf Flite
> Personally, I would be more than a little pissed at the nurses who
> allowed you to suffer recovery pain.
>
> Healing just takes time. Use the time well and heal, brother.
>
> Now, what would you have done differently (aside from hanging on the
> front riser, that is :)? I hope there is a good general discussion on
> this. Your experience is a good one for people to learn from. I have
> some ideas and specific suggestions but for now, I'll toss it out for
> comments. I'll try and catch up when I return as ...THEM TOADSUCKERS
> are about to invade Delmarva.
>
> BSBD,
>
> Michael
> D-6139
>
>
think I still would not have chopped, but more alti checks and
grabbing the REAR RISER to straighten out(alti check and if possible
get into the wind) then as much opposing rear riser as I could get
without turning.Then making a sweet off kilter rear riser only landing
into a 20 mph headwind. With no more than a stubbed toe.:~) that
woulda worked.
ltdiver
This line speaks volumes:
" times up gotta chop it
and glanced at my alt and I was at ~700'-800'."
You broke the chain and lived. Others have let the chain continue, and
like some have written here, haven't had a good outcome.
And even with your broken bones, this -is- a good outcome. ;^)
Have 'fun' in your physical therapy when you're able to start. As a
P.T., I LOVE to work with motivated, positive minded people like you.
Blue Skies!
Lori
Michael Seddon
thought was the best thing in the extreamly limited time that you had but i
was wondering, and someone might be able to tell me if this would work or
not, since you couldn't unstow the steering toggle could to grab the brake
line...wrap it around your hang and pull that down or would the spinning
make this impossibile? I saw someone talking with the rigger to shorten his
brake lines and that was the advice the rigger gave to him...to test jump
the rig again..wrap the line around his hand and not were to shorten the
lines to.
On another note get better soon man :) At least you have all your friends
:) There ain't nobody better then a skydiver. Thats great you plan on
coming back when you can...feel better soon
"Surf Flite" <surf...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:d2a55ff9.02061...@posting.google.com...
Peter
"Surf Flite" wrote ...
>The slider fired
> my right brake line and I began a hard right spiral.
burned through or broke?
If you mean released, was the tip of the toggle tucked in a pocket above the
keeper ring?
Do you have soft links?
Anyhoo, glad you survived it. Skinny dude with the sickle is gonna have to
wait a little longer.
BSBS
Peter
Squirts
> interested to know more about you.
>
> number of jumps?
> size/loading/type of canopy also?
>
Have a cypress?
Trained SL, AFF, or Tandem?
Booties on jump suit?
and color of jumpsuit, rig, and canopy?
did this occur at Skydive Chicago or was Roger Nelson involved in some way?
From reading wreck. for a while it has become apparent to me
that these are the real determining factors in deaths and
injuries, so we must ask.
me
> Kerry,
>
> This line speaks volumes:
> " times up gotta chop it
> and glanced at my alt and I was at ~700'-800'."
>
> You broke the chain and lived. Others have let the chain continue, and
> like some have written here, haven't had a good outcome.
Exactamundo. Don't wanna hammer on a guy who lived. Fought
all the way to the ground and lived. That's a GOOD thing. But...
ya gotta know where ya are. If ya dump low, and shit happens, ya
gotta chop fast. Don't even look at the alti, just chop and go.
If ya chop high, you can mess with things, but not for long. I still
count to this very day, just like they taught me in my FJC. When
I dump, I start counting. If I don't have something good and flyable
by 10, it's gotta go, outta time. Do I make exceptions? Yeah, closed
end cells, busted lines, that kinda thing give ya a bit more time.
I'll fight line twist a bit lower too because my decent rate is lower.
But anything relatively high speed (like deep spirals where I can't
get to the toggles) gotta go and go fast.
> And even with your broken bones, this -is- a good outcome. ;^)
>
> Have 'fun' in your physical therapy when you're able to start. As a
> P.T., I LOVE to work with motivated, positive minded people like you.
Sadist ;-)
Kevin O'Connell
Birdman
unreleased side the canopy would have stopped spireling and would have
leveled out. Giving you plenty of time and a calm canopy to release the
stowed brake. Good lesson for all who read it. Thanks for shareing. Glad
you survived Blue Ones. Birdman
Surf Flite
Ok as for the "brake firing" the slider came down and "unstowed" the
toggle from the keeper ring. But for some reason that I was not able
to notice it continued to pull on the brake causing a right spiral.
The bottom stow of the toggle came out also but the slider ring had
the toggle trapped between the slider ring and the riser. This was
also the case on my left toggle although it didn't unstow this toggle.
As I looked up it appeared that both toggles were trapped in the
slider rings and the slide was flapping violently so I could not get
them free. Like I said, the time went by so fast I don't think I spent
more than 5 seconds trying to free the toggles before I noticed mother
earth bearing down on me. In about a 2 second time frame I saw the
ground glaced at my altimeter and made a decision to not chop. I then
just reached up and grabbed the left front riser and hung on it. This
immediately straightened me out. I looked down and was ~100' and
really had no more time to do anything but land it as is. I wasn't
sure at the time if switching to rear riser was a wise idea because I
didn't know if the canopy was going to start that right hand spiral
again. I was way too low to try it. I knew I was in a steep dive and
really had a lot of forward speeed but all those "hooked it in"
stories I have read that resulted in deaths stuck in my mind so I was
just glad to be flying straight.
BTW, thanks to everyone who has emailed me. It gives me something to
do and your words of encouragement are very uplifting. No doubt about
it, skydivers are great people!!
peace,
Kerry
LORD OF THE SKY
Birdman <sabr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:270Q8.39389$ks6....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> You are correct. If you had grabbed and pulled down on the rear riser of
the
> unreleased side the canopy would have stopped spireling and would have
> leveled out.
The unreleased side is in brakes, the released side is in full flight.
Which rear riser should you pull?
Rita
defeat you is letting your spirits get down. Keep up a fighting attitude,
concentrate on that day when you will rejoin your friends in the sky, and
use good memories and the warmth of your friends to keep your dream alive.
Then, you will be fine.
Blue skies!
--rita
Surf Flite <surf...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:d2a55ff9.02061...@posting.google.com...
Robert Lawton
differently for this post. No doubt someone else could/should pick up
that thread. Let's look at one of the links closer to the start of
this accident chain.
I'd like to take this space to point out that hard opening or no, we
simply should not "accept" an unstowed toggle as satisfactory
equipment performance.
Toggles should not unstow themselves on properly designed gear:
especially if the opening is hard, especially if the slider comes down
fast. These two situations might indicate other problems - and we
really don't need risers/toggles that add to our problems when things
are *already* going south (low pull, hard opening).
Kerry; What sort of risers were you jumping? What sort of toggle
stows did you have? Did you use soft links? Have you had a toggle
unstow before?
I've had a toggle unstow on about one jump out of every 150. Finally
I got the message and upgraded my risers to a newer design. They
certainly look more secure. I like how they feel when I release them
under canopy. But I've only got thirty or so jumps on them, and I'd
rather not mention the new brand simply because I don't have enough
jumps on them to be certain they are any better than the old ones.
Anybody have a thousand or so jumps on a set of risers/toggles where
they've never had a toggle unstow (or get stuck, or tie itself in
knots)? What were they? Would you recommend them?
JAKAL
Just Another Krummy A-License
skyjames
Good debriefing! Thx for the TIWTIWGD post.
I jump a 149 Safire loaded close to your 1:28, (195 exit) aprox 1.34.
I also have about 250 jumps on this canopy. I do not collapse the slider
and stow it behind my head, rather I leave it collapsed hanging on the
"stops", or I used to.
About 20 or so jumps ago the slider started coming down over the brakes,
it didn't do it all the time, but when it did I collapsed it and bring
it down behind my neck. Recently in Lodi I had an out landing, though I
was in the saddle at 2300+/-, the problem I had with the slider hanging
on the the brakes took valuable time to correct because this time it
popped the left brake lose and stayed there rather than coming on down
past the brakes.
The turn began and I shifted my weight to the right leg strap and pulled
on the right rear riser, the turn wasn't radical. Using my left hand I
pulled the slider on down and collapsed that side. I then released the
right rear riser and finished putting the slider behind my head, took
hold of the left brake and released the right, turned toward the LZ but
I was on the wrong side of the highway. I did the distance check and
decided an off landing was prudent.
This was a solo jump so I really didn't have to worry about other
canopies and I did look to see where I was and if a good out was below
me. Winds were up a little and the time I spent fixing the problem just
allowed me to drift further from the LZ. Legs up, rear risering wasn't
going to get me back. Divided highway, barbed wire fences, power lines
in my path made the out landing decision an easy one.
Crossing the highway was the most scary part. Too bad I didn't get the
opportunity to explain all this. (I just did ;)
Now I collapse and stow the pc behind my neck. Lessons I learned in the
past are now ingrained from this experience.
Good luck with the healing, smile, you are alive :)
james
"exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile"
'nother james
skyjames
umm, that should read "slider" not pc :)
kallend
Kenneth Murphy wrote:
>
> 1 knot = 1.15 miles
>
> ........KM
>
Negative.
1 nautical mile = 1.15 statute miles
1 knot = 1 n.m. per hour
The Fonz
> From reading wreck. for a while it has become apparent to me
> that these are the real determining factors in deaths and
> injuries, so we must ask.
Waidaminnit.
You mean that jumpers in pink suits have an increased chance of screwing
up?
Alphons (already thought so)
--
A. van Werven http://www.liacs.nl/~avwerven
Leiden Institute of Advanced Computer Science, The Netherlands
ASU
1 mph = 1.61 kph = 0.87 knots
1 knot = 1.85 kph = 1.15 mph
From kph to mph/knots:
kph mph knots
----------------------------------------
1.00 0.62 0.54
2.00 1.24 1.08
3.00 1.86 1.62
4.00 2.48 2.16
5.00 3.10 2.70
6.00 3.72 3.24
7.00 4.34 3.78
8.00 4.96 4.32
9.00 5.58 4.86
10.00 6.20 5.40
11.00 6.82 5.94
12.00 7.44 6.48
13.00 8.06 7.02
14.00 8.68 7.56
15.00 9.30 8.10
16.00 9.92 8.64
17.00 10.54 9.18
18.00 11.16 9.72
19.00 11.78 10.26
20.00 12.40 10.80
21.00 13.02 11.34
22.00 13.64 11.88
23.00 14.26 12.42
24.00 14.88 12.96
25.00 15.50 13.50
26.00 16.12 14.04
27.00 16.74 14.58
28.00 17.36 15.12
29.00 17.98 15.66
30.00 18.60 16.20
31.00 19.22 16.74
32.00 19.84 17.28
33.00 20.46 17.82
34.00 21.08 18.36
35.00 21.70 18.90
36.00 22.32 19.44
37.00 22.94 19.98
38.00 23.56 20.52
39.00 24.18 21.06
40.00 24.80 21.60
From mph to kph/knots:
kph mph knots
----------------------------------------
1.61 1.00 0.87
3.22 2.00 1.74
4.83 3.00 2.61
6.44 4.00 3.48
8.05 5.00 4.35
9.66 6.00 5.22
11.27 7.00 6.09
12.88 8.00 6.96
14.49 9.00 7.83
16.10 10.00 8.70
17.71 11.00 9.57
19.32 12.00 10.44
20.93 13.00 11.31
22.54 14.00 12.18
24.15 15.00 13.05
25.76 16.00 13.92
27.37 17.00 14.79
28.98 18.00 15.66
30.59 19.00 16.53
32.20 20.00 17.40
33.81 21.00 18.27
35.42 22.00 19.14
37.03 23.00 20.01
38.64 24.00 20.88
40.25 25.00 21.75
41.86 26.00 22.62
43.47 27.00 23.49
45.08 28.00 24.36
46.69 29.00 25.23
48.30 30.00 26.10
49.91 31.00 26.97
51.52 32.00 27.84
53.13 33.00 28.71
54.74 34.00 29.58
56.35 35.00 30.45
57.96 36.00 31.32
59.57 37.00 32.19
61.18 38.00 33.06
62.79 39.00 33.93
64.40 40.00 34.80
From knots to kph/mph:
kph mph knots
----------------------------------------
1.85 1.15 1.00
3.70 2.30 2.00
5.55 3.45 3.00
7.40 4.60 4.00
9.25 5.75 5.00
11.10 6.90 6.00
12.95 8.05 7.00
14.80 9.20 8.00
16.65 10.35 9.00
18.50 11.50 10.00
20.35 12.65 11.00
22.20 13.80 12.00
24.05 14.95 13.00
25.90 16.10 14.00
27.75 17.25 15.00
29.60 18.40 16.00
31.45 19.55 17.00
33.30 20.70 18.00
35.15 21.85 19.00
37.00 23.00 20.00
38.85 24.15 21.00
40.70 25.30 22.00
42.55 26.45 23.00
44.40 27.60 24.00
46.25 28.75 25.00
48.10 29.90 26.00
49.95 31.05 27.00
51.80 32.20 28.00
53.65 33.35 29.00
55.50 34.50 30.00
57.35 35.65 31.00
59.20 36.80 32.00
61.05 37.95 33.00
62.90 39.10 34.00
64.75 40.25 35.00
66.60 41.40 36.00
68.45 42.55 37.00
70.30 43.70 38.00
72.15 44.85 39.00
74.00 46.00 40.00
D16842
>
>You mean that jumpers in pink suits have an increased chance of screwing
>up?
It is a known fact. A pink cell, pink toggles, anything like that, will make
you screw up. Hell it can even make a big guy float out of formations
uncontrolled. God only knows what a pink truck will do, but I bet it has an
impact in rest stops at night.
Tom B
Stephen Rafferty
>
> Waidaminnit.
>
> You mean that jumpers in pink suits...
"Jumpers in pink" is an oxymoron.
sraff
Robert Lawton
spin. You don't have to know which toggle is doing what - just pull
the rear riser opposite the spin.
In this case, pulling either one of the brakes would have fixed the
problem as well (if such was possible). Pull the unstowed brake, and
now you're flying both sides in half breaks. Pull the stowed brake,
and now you've got two unstowed brakes and can fly normally.
Up for debate is whether or not pulling the silver handle would have
helped (without first chopping). More material out is a nice thing in
general, and if it fully inflated, you could have transferred canopies
without going back into freefall. Or you might have simply entangled
both canopies. Yick.
Over the Winter, Missy Nelson ended up on her back under a spinning
high performance canopy. The risers trapped her cutaway cable, and
she wasn't able to chop. She pulled her silver handle when her Ditter
screamed, and she was able to get her reserve out and inflated in
spite of the radical spin. She then chopped her main and landed
safely.
Not that I have any experience pulling silver handles. I've got zero
reserve rides.
JAKAK
Just Another Krummy A-License
"LORD OF THE SKY" <lord...@ellijay.com> wrote in message news:<aeq4c...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
Birdman
Ron Luke
> Anybody have a thousand or so jumps on a set of risers/toggles where
> they've never had a toggle unstow (or get stuck, or tie itself in
> knots)? What were they? Would you recommend them?
I've put around 500 jumps on velcroless mini risers from PdF without any sign of a toggle unstowing. They have a traditionally
gentle opening Crossfire attached to them, so there's not much provocation.
This effective type of arrangement can be viewed in pictures 1 through 6 on page 07-3-4 at
http://www.parachutes-de-france.com/fr/parachutes/docs/Atom2.pdf
It's irritatingly fiddly to set, but worth it.
>
> JAKAL
> Just Another Krummy A-License
Why's an A- license "krummy"?
Ron Luke
Jan Meyer
> Anybody have a thousand or so jumps on a set of risers/toggles where
> they've never had a toggle unstow (or get stuck, or tie itself in
> knots)? What were they? Would you recommend them?
I have ZERO unstowed toggles in about 5000 jumps.
about 30 on T-10
about 80 on a piglett
rest on ram-airs with the velcro type toggles, maybe some with those
tubular webbing kind, not binding tape,(red) no velcro ones they had out
in the 80s.
50-50 split on with or without that little top of the toggle keeper & no
keeper.
I have always had slider bumpers on the connector links, so I do not
experience the hazard of the slider slamming against the toggles. I
think this has more to do with it than the type of toggle.
I also never stow or even collapse my slider because I have absolutely,
positively no desire to land at 20 mph or higher.
I jump a Safire 149 loaded at 1.000003,
unless I wear weights & then it's slightly higher.
--
Jan Meyer
http://FixMyPages.com
http://www.ParachuteHistory.com
http://www.MakeItHappen.com
http://www.DiveMaker.com
mailto:Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com
Jan Meyer
> When the discussion gets started, can someone translate 15-20mph into
> knots for me? We use kph down here and I cant get a grip on how windy
> 15-20 mph is (and I dont have a conversion table). Im only guessing,
> but it sounds reasonably strong to me.
It was really windy that day but Kerry did not mean to say:
"The slider was flapping very hard from the high winds. "
It was the downwind landing that was hard cuz of the high winds.
Jan Meyer
>
> On May 26th I was making a 3 way FF with a couple of friends in Eloy.
> It was a windy day (15-20 mph steady with 25 gusts). The dive was
Glad to hear your story.
Do you have a dog named Luke?
I think our dogs have been introduced, but not us.
Dave McGrath
standard Sunpath mini risers and slider bumpers. Never ever had a brake
come unstowed. I also collapse and pull the slider behind my neck on each
jump so I know for a fact the slider can easily travel past the toggles.
On a rig with slinks and a Vengeance 107 I've had the slider bounce off my
helmet a few times but never has it unstowed a toggle.
SkyCam
Hope everyone has one...
(but Kerry had a plan, but she was lover than she expected to be. Thank GOD
she looked at the alti...)
"me" <ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote in message
news:73af7090.02061...@posting.google.com...
kallend
Dave McGrath wrote:
>
> I've got over a couple thousand jumps on a Stiletto 120/Javelin NJ with
> standard Sunpath mini risers and slider bumpers. Never ever had a brake
> come unstowed. I also collapse and pull the slider behind my neck on each
> jump so I know for a fact the slider can easily travel past the toggles.
>
> On a rig with slinks and a Vengeance 107 I've had the slider bounce off my
> helmet a few times but never has it unstowed a toggle.
SLIDER REBOUND!
TY
will be ok again some day. You sound like you have a great attitude about
it all. I'm sure it must be really hard some days. Hang in there. The
sky will be waiting for you. Wishing you a fast and complete recovery.
Donna
Surf Flite wrote:
> On May 26th I was making a 3 way FF with a couple of friends in Eloy.
> It was a windy day (15-20 mph steady with 25 gusts). The dive was
Sam
Jan Meyer wrote:
> Robert Lawton wrote:
> > Anybody have a thousand or so jumps on a set of risers/toggles where
> > they've never had a toggle unstow (or get stuck, or tie itself in
> > knots)? What were they? Would you recommend them?
>
> I have ZERO unstowed toggles in about 5000 jumps.
> about 30 on T-10
> about 80 on a piglett
> rest on ram-airs with the velcro type toggles, maybe some with those
> tubular webbing kind, not binding tape,(red) no velcro ones they had out
> in the 80s.
> 50-50 split on with or without that little top of the toggle keeper & no
> keeper.
>
> I have always had slider bumpers on the connector links, so I do not
> experience the hazard of the slider slamming against the toggles. I
> think this has more to do with it than the type of toggle.
>
> I also never stow or even collapse my slider because I have absolutely,
> positively no desire to land at 20 mph or higher.
> I jump a Safire 149 loaded at 1.000003,
> Ooooh, Jan weighs 148.999553......nice!
Tiger
Glad you're still here and can share your story. Heal fast!
Tiger
Alan Binnebose
"Robert Lawton" <rkla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1b6060c1.02061...@posting.google.com...
> To counter a spin, you can always pull the rear riser opposite the
> spin. You don't have to know which toggle is doing what - just pull
> the rear riser opposite the spin.
>
> In this case, pulling either one of the brakes would have fixed the
> problem as well (if such was possible). Pull the unstowed brake, and
> now you're flying both sides in half breaks. Pull the stowed brake,
> and now you've got two unstowed brakes and can fly normally.
>
> Up for debate is whether or not pulling the silver handle would have
> helped (without first chopping). More material out is a nice thing in
> general, and if it fully inflated, you could have transferred canopies
> without going back into freefall. Or you might have simply entangled
> both canopies. Yick.
>
> Over the Winter, Missy Nelson ended up on her back under a spinning
> high performance canopy. The risers trapped her cutaway cable, and
> she wasn't able to chop. She pulled her silver handle when her Ditter
> screamed, and she was able to get her reserve out and inflated in
> spite of the radical spin. She then chopped her main and landed
> safely.
>
> Not that I have any experience pulling silver handles. I've got zero
> reserve rides.
>
> JAKAK
> Just Another Krummy A-License
>
Had the same mal last week. Slider knocked a brake out and it entangled in
the slider, lines and risers. A real mess. Fortunately I had dumped at
5000' so I could do some formation flying with an UL. It took some work,
but got it straightened out by 2000'. Crazy bastard in the UL thought I was
screwing with him............he caught me just as I stopped the spiral!
Hahahahaha! Crazy Bastard! We did a nice carving 360 turn to landing
approach in formation.
--
Blue Skies,
Alan Binnebose
Kenneth Murphy
1 knot = 1.15 miles per hour
I didn't think about the units. I guess knot has "per hour" assumed and
there is no equivalent expression in statute miles.
............KM
"kallend" <jo...@kallend.net> wrote in message
news:3D10BBE6...@kallend.net...
Dave McGrath
too. Would the answer not be 1.15077944886363636...?
This is assuming you use the international n.m. unit agreed at 1852
meters (6076.11549 feet).
I knew what you meant Kenneth.
W Faulkner
Robert Lawton <rkla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Anybody have a thousand or so jumps on a set of risers/toggles where
>they've never had a toggle unstow (or get stuck, or tie itself in
>knots)? What were they? Would you recommend them?
I've never have a toggle come unstowed on my freefall gear (My CRW gear
is a bit different.) I've mainly used velcro mini risers over the years
- types have varied over time. I've recently switched to Square One
velcroless risers and haven't had one come unstowed yet either.
W
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wendy Faulkner Don't knock on Death's door.
faul...@eco.utexas.edu Ring the bell and run away.
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~faulkner He hates that.
Darren G
> Darren G wrote:
> > When the discussion gets started, can someone translate 15-20mph into
> > knots for me? We use kph down here and I cant get a grip on how windy
> > 15-20 mph is (and I dont have a conversion table). Im only guessing,
> > but it sounds reasonably strong to me.
>
> It was really windy that day but Kerry did not mean to say:
> "The slider was flapping very hard from the high winds. "
>
> It was the downwind landing that was hard cuz of the high winds.
I didnt think that was what Kerry meant,Jan. I wanted to confirm the
windspeed because it seemed like it might have been a little high and
I wanted to get an idea of just how fast the downwind landing was.
Because Kerry stated it in mph I couldnt get a grip on either
situation because we use knots in Australia and kph for motor
vehicles.
Gusting up to to 21+ knots is close to the absolute limit IMO. I had a
slightly backwards landing in high winds once (as did almost everyone
except the tandems on that particular load) and, although it was fun
in a screwy kind of way, afterwards when I thought about what could
have happened if something had gone wrong I made a resolution to think
twice in conditions like that.
It also seems to me, from the description of the landing and the fact
that Kerry had two hands on the front riser that the PLF may not have
been that good. I dont mean that as a criticism but just as an
observation that it seems to me it would have been difficult to hold
onto a front riser with both hands AND adopt the position for, and
execute a good PLF.
I hope you get well and are jumping again soon Kerry
My thanks to the guys that provided the conversion figures.
Blue skies
Darren G
me
> Good to know, at least you have A PLAN.
> Hope everyone has one...
>
> she looked at the alti...)
Well, maybe. It depends on alot of factors, but from where she was
she could have come out better by chopping. The danger was that she
would have had to dump really fast, or had an RSL or something. Not
sure I'da had the Kahoonas to chop at 700 feet either. But the
result of what she did do was about one bad bounce away from dead anyway.
Bottom line is that a 700 feet and subterminal you're deep in the beeps
and well past high probability choices. She made one which is the
best thing she did. Lack of decision kills as many as anything else
in this sport. Debating the wisdom or success potential of any
particular decision is a great use of time AFTER you get to the ground.
It's a really useless thing to do at 700 feet. Decide and do, choose
and go, DO NOT suffer paralysis by analysis or you may not be around
long enough to get graded on your choice.
Kevin O'Connell
Rev Jim
"D16842"
So what the hell am I supposed to expect with my (skydiving) rig? There's
pink on the Vector 2, and both the top and bottom skins of the Sabre are
pink. Ruh roh, I'm gonna die!
Hey, the rig was DIRT cheap to set up, and even after paying Loki to
assemble it, it's gonna come in under a grand, and beggars can't be
choosers.
Stephen Welter
puppy down!
;-)
freeflyer
>
> I also never stow or even collapse my slider because I have absolutely,
> positively no desire to land at 20 mph or higher.
I collapse my slider because the noise it makes
"uncollapsed" is annoying as hell, not because of my landings.
Whether I stow it or not depends on whether I jump a camera
or not.
--
Espen
ALF#1
kallend
number of significant figures given) and dimensional consistency.
Maybe you choose to give your weight in miles, your height in volts and
the size of your canopy in furlongs per fortnight, but most of us
wouldn't.
kallend
Is there any empirical evidence that collapsing/stowing the slider makes
any discernable difference to the forward speed of the canopy? Taking a
rough approximation that the slider adds 1% to the total lifting area,
and a very generous estimate that its lift coefficient is equal to that
of the canopy, it should reduce the speed by 0.01% or about 0.003mph.
Livendive
I don't know about lifting coefficients, but when the front slides up such
that the slider is oriented mostly up to down, it does seem to present a
decent sized drag-producing surface.
Blues,
Dave
kallend
On my plane (Mooney), if I cut the power so it's gliding, let the speed
stabilize, and then drop the landing gear (adds drag) the descent rate
increases noticeably, but the forward speed doesn't change AFAICT.
That's why I wondered if anyone has actual data on canopy flight.
ynotssor
> Is there any empirical evidence that collapsing/stowing the slider
> makes any discernable difference to the forward speed of the
> canopy? Taking a rough approximation that the slider adds 1%
> to the total lifting area, and a very generous estimate that its lift
> coefficient is equal to that of the canopy, it should reduce the
> speed by 0.01% or about 0.003mph.
It's a drag, man.
tony
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freeflyer
>
>>I collapse my slider because the noise it makes
>>"uncollapsed" is annoying as hell, not because of my landings.
>>Whether I stow it or not depends on whether I jump a camera
>>or not.
>
> Is there any empirical evidence that collapsing/stowing the slider makes
> any discernable difference to the forward speed of the canopy? Taking a
> rough approximation that the slider adds 1% to the total lifting area,
> and a very generous estimate that its lift coefficient is equal to that
> of the canopy, it should reduce the speed by 0.01% or about 0.003mph.
The people who make these things talk about significant drag
from the lines and I don't think they present much more
surface than the slider. A good choice would be to talk to
LeBlanc or Galloway.
kallend
Circular cylinders (a good approximation for lines) produce way more
drag that you would imagine from their frontal area.
Does drag slow down your forward speed or just increase your descent
rate?
Livendive
> Does drag slow down your forward speed or just increase your descent
> rate?
The obvious test is to jump with a big non-collapsible pilot chute or
uncollapsed drogue and get back to us with the data. My (unscientific)
opinion is that it slows forward speed without having much effect on descent
rate, thereby decreasing the glide.
Blues,
Dave
Peter
Espen said...
> Jan Meyer wrote:
>
> >
> > I also never stow or even collapse my slider because I have absolutely,
> > positively no desire to land at 20 mph or higher.
>
> I collapse my slider because the noise it makes
> "uncollapsed" is annoying as hell, not because of my landings.
> Whether I stow it or not depends on whether I jump a camera
> or not.
Supposedly, the other reason is that the flapping can cause extra wear on
the lines just above the links, especially if your slider grommets are at
all nicked.
Peter
kallend
You would have to be careful not to change the basic dynamics of a
ram-air canopy, where the predominant force opposing gravity is lift,
not drag. A very large drogue would change this, and invalidate the
experiment.
freeflyer
I would assume the former.
Then again, I really don't care as I only collapse my slider
to keep from going mad from the "FLAP, FLAP, FLAP!!" noise :o)
freeflyer
If you don't make sure that you've pulled the slider down
to, or past, the links, yes.
Michael Cooper
> You would have to be careful not to change the basic dynamics of a
> ram-air canopy, where the predominant force opposing gravity is lift,
> not drag. A very large drogue would change this, and invalidate the
> experiment.
A very large drogue would also likely deform the canopy itself, so again
you'd be looking at other effects than the one you intend to study.
Michael
Livendive
open. That's the point in the system we're talking about anyhow.
Blues,
Dave
"Michael Cooper" <crw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af04dd$48u$1...@news3.cadvision.com...
Jan Meyer
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:25:21 GMT, Jan Meyer <Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I also never stow or even collapse my slider...[snipped]
>
> Doesn't that flapping noise bother you as well as wear your lines?
>
It doesn't flap the vast majority of the time.
Lines do not wear out from the slider being there. The slider stops are
those cloth ones that came with the canopy.
bill von
ocon...@slr.orl.lmco.com says...
> But...
>ya gotta know where ya are.
I agree there.
>If ya dump low, and shit happens, ya
>gotta chop fast. Don't even look at the alti, just chop and go.
Have to disagree there. Cutting away from tension knots at 100 feet might just
kill you. Know your altitude before you cut away. Fortunately, that's easy to
do - you just have to look down.
me
If you know where you are, you don't have to look anywhere. That's
the overall point. Opening time becomes a sequence of actions and
decisions and doesn't involve a series of checks because each action
is predetermined to be at a sufficient altitude. That's why the counting.
When you decide to break off and track, that's the beginning. You
track until some altitude. What altitude that is may depend upon traffic.
But once you decide to pull, each action after that is based upon
knowing that you started this whole process at X altitude and that you
must be under SOME useful canopy by Y altitude. You know you have
Z amount of time to achieve this. There are things you already know
you can't do in that amount of time. There are things you can only
try once, or twice. I've got a hard and fast rule about floating/missing
puds. Three tries and you're done. If I can't find/pull it in 3 tries,
it's reserve time. The reason is because of time. I'm burning up time
trying to accomplish something at which I've already failed 3 times.
I could make it 4, but on lower dumps that might be a bad choice. I
could decide to look down, maybe check an altimeter, pay attention to
an audible or something, but time is a wastin' and really it's time to
do something effective. I know I'm low, exactly how low is a nit.
If you're struggling with tension knots at 100 feet it's because
you've long ago past the time allotted for clearing them. Decide
now, on the ground, how long you will mess with tension knots and
then stick to the plan. You won't have to check any altimeters if
you do this.
Kevin O'Connell
Skratch Garrison
> (A great jump story)
Hi Kerry,
I want to send you some vibes and encouragement.
I had a similar story in 1980, July 4th actually, which I count
as one of my several birthdays. Long story, 500 ft, spinning,
laid out flat, bounced and lived. I remember the impact too.
Bouncing doesn't hurt, but if you wake up afterwards it sure
as hell does.
Recovery took a while, and other life intervened, so I didn't
get active again until about 10 years ago. I've made another
1,200 jumps since then.
I had another 5 year slowdown around 1970. It seems like lots
of long term jumpers take life pauses now and then, and there
are lots of ways to experience and appreciate skydiving after
that first 10 year rush.
So keep the faith, do the physical therapy, and the mental
and emotional too. We skydivers sometimes appear to make
light of all this stuff, but hitting the ground at 60 or 80
mph leaves a mental aftermath too.
I tried to brush it all aside and keep on truckin' as if
nothing had happened, and I think that is part of the reason
it took so long.
Maybe we'll cross paths somewhere around the planet and
make a jump in the light of it all.
Skr
tbos...@onyx.boisestate.edu
> Gusting up to to 21+ knots is close to the absolute limit IMO. I had a
> slightly backwards landing in high winds once (as did almost everyone
Depends on canopy and loading. On a student canopy I wouldn't want to
jump in more than 14 knot winds. On an teeny weeny screaming machine
it can be fun jumping in 20 knot winds.
The tandems had forward drive but not the sport jumpers?
--
Shane
tbos...@onyx.boisestate.edu
> This appears to be an issue with the type-17 risers;
What are type-17 risers?
--
Shane
tbos...@onyx.boisestate.edu
> Kerry,
> Glad you're still here and can share your story. Heal fast!
Hell yeah, Thanks Kerry!
--
Shane