LOTR - Deep Throat spills the beans.
TreasureCove
who says he's actually "played" LOTR. He says it's Stern's best yet, ... and
that the playfield has two towers on it with the "evil one" collapsing like
Medieval Madness.
just thought I'd pass this on...
Allen "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm" Shope
Brad Czernik
- Brad
Ray Johnson - Action Pinball
> Just got word from a friend of mine, ... we'll just call him 'Deep Throat'
> who says he's actually "played" LOTR. He says it's Stern's best yet, ...
and
> that the playfield has two towers on it with the "evil one" collapsing
like
> Medieval Madness.
Yeah- that was covered in the Replay article. So no new news... still
drooling for more info and some pics!
--
Ray Johnson
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com
We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
Mani
cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
Just imagine the excitement over this game if it turned out to be a
straight up MM clone. Then again, maybe not due to the upper
playfield. But still ...
We still don't know who designed it, right? What if they brought in
Brian Eddy? Hmmmmmm indeed!
-Mani
"TreasureCove" <aksn...@iglou.com> wrote in message news:<206rb.146281$e01.505047@attbi_s02>...
Kevin L'Heureux
<goo...@goddamnelectric.com> wrote:
> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
> Just imagine the excitement over this game if it turned out to be a
> straight up MM clone.
I've been saying all along that Stern should make a MM clone, they
would have a huge hit on their hands and sell like crazy especially to
operators looking for the next MM to boost their pinball earnings.
> We still don't know who designed it, right? What if they brought in
> Brian Eddy? Hmmmmmm indeed!
This i have also said would be a no-brainer. Get Eddy Stern!!!!!
--
Pins - M*dieval Madness - M*nster Bash - F*14 - R*pid Fire
(Coming Soon?) RFM - LOTR
Vids - D*nkey Kong
Past Pins - H*gh Speed #1 - T*Z - H*gh Speed #2 - C*ctus Canyon - S*fe Cracker
Daniel Northover
Daniel Northover
djnor...@earthlink.net
If it ain't an Arrow wood It ain't any good.
trent
Trent
Kevin L'Heureux <tvs...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<081120032353440548%tvs...@attbi.com>...
Iain Odlin
>A clone has already been made. SST. Check the shots. Check the rules.
Check the acronym list to figure out what the heck game "SST" is...
-Iain
Bigd849498
Derek
Iain Odlin
>StarShip Troopers
Oh! I thought we were talking about _pinball_ machines...
;)
-Iain, not a huge Sega fan
Aron Boag
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Oh, that's a pretty low blow there, Iain. I'm hardly what you'd call a Sega
fan myself, but I give credit where it's due, and SST isn't all bad. The
playfield design is pretty good (I like the three flippers thing, and the
criss-cross ramps thing, and a couple other things...), the artwork is
pretty darned bad, and the sounds/art is cheesy, but the gameplay's not all
bad at all. Better than average, for sure.
Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.
Still, all Sega games weren't bad, and some were downright good!
Aron
Yancy Blaylock
> We still don't know who designed it, right?
If I'm not mistaken, George Gomez designed the game and Keith Johnson
wrote the software.
Yancy
-----------------------------------------------
e-mail address in header is a trash account...
you can find me here: yancy at musician dot org
David Gersic
> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
God, let's hope not. I'd much rather they do something different,
original, not just re-hash the same thing over and over again.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well! |
| Email address is munged to avoid spammers. Remove the underscores. |
Aron Boag
Gersic" <dgersic_@_niu.edu> wrote:
> On 8 Nov 2003 13:13:54 -0800, Mani <goo...@goddamnelectric.com> wrote:
>> Sometimes I've wondered if Stern have made LOTR similar to MM
>> cosmetically, but also in terms of gameplay (MM/AFM style gameplay).
>
> God, let's hope not. I'd much rather they do something different,
> original, not just re-hash the same thing over and over again.
::coughAustinPowerscough::
;)
Aron
Abby Franquemont
Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
[snip]
>Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
>probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
>Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
>gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.
I did not think "Hook" sucked at all. I also remember being somewhat
surprised at finding Baywatch fun to play. SST, I go back and forth
on but agree it does not suck. Meanwhile, there are Williams/Bally
games which I do feel sucked, such as Black Rose, which I just could
never stand.
--
Abby Franquemont "Chevrolet does not condone being tailgated
J. Random BOFH by a giant ore hauler." -- Trailblazer ad
Aron Boag
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:
> In article <BBD499F8.F583%boa...@comcast.net>,
> Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Don't get me wrong: the ratio of bad Sega games to good Sega games is
>> probably in the 8:1 range, but I've gotta give credit to some games such as
>> Apollo 13, Batman Forever, Starship Troopers, and, uh, er, hmmm...there's
>> gotta be one more that I'm forgetting.
>
> I did not think "Hook" sucked at all. I also remember being somewhat
> surprised at finding Baywatch fun to play. SST, I go back and forth
> on but agree it does not suck. Meanwhile, there are Williams/Bally
> games which I do feel sucked, such as Black Rose, which I just could
> never stand.
Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.
Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
to any reasonable degree.
Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.
Aron
Iain Odlin
>If I'm not mistaken, George Gomez designed the game
Oh, please God: No... I don't think I could stand having LotR be a "Shoot
target <x> <y> times for effect <z>; Lather; Rinse; Repeat" pin...
>and Keith Johnson
>wrote the software.
This much we knew for fact already, and it's a point very much in its favor.
Here's hoping the two don't cancel each other out.
-Iain
Abby Franquemont
Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
>Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.
Dang, was it? Okay, then I'll save that example for the Data East
pins that don't suck thread.
>Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
>play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
>bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
>to any reasonable degree.
I agree that BF actually *did* something with it whereas in the others, it
was mostly just... a DMD, only bigger. My impressions of Baywatch are
based on remembering a couple of long afternoons at, IIRC, the arcade at
Navy Pier in Chicago sometime in the mid-90s, when I kept finding myself
playing the Baywatch game. I haven't played it to the point of getting
sick of it, and I haven't played it recently. What I remember liking about
it was, as you note, the playfield layout, and I also vaguely recall that
it seemed to be tongue-in-cheek about its theme.
>Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.
See, now I've been expecting to hear argument on that subject. I *wanted*
to like Black Rose, but I just didn't. In fact I think it was the only
game ever that was at my neighborhood bar, and I pleaded for them to
replace it with something else. Mind you, I played it plenty, because
even pinball that sucks is better than no pinball... but I probably would
have been delighted if they'd replaced it even with something like
Robocop (instead, they replaced it by bringing back the TAF that had
left a while previously, which placated the resident pinheads who were
all clamoring for Black Rose to leave). Heck, I'd rather play Lethal
Weapon. ;-)
Pinlicious
>From: ab...@ucan.foad.org (Abby Franquemont)
>Date: 11/11/2003 1:01 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <g68rob...@ucan.foad.org>
be it true that black rose lix donkey marbles, don't take arons word on what is
good an bad in pinball. he chooses to own some interesting themes over the
likes of afm and mb simply because he played blown out games on location that
never worked correctly and it haunts him til this day! ; )
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Aron Boag
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:
> In article <BBD5E025.F739%boa...@comcast.net>,
> Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hmmm, well Abby, the first thing that I have to do here is correct you on
>> Hook. That was a title developed under the Data East nameplate.
>
> Dang, was it? Okay, then I'll save that example for the Data East
> pins that don't suck thread.
There'll be one coming along pretty quickly...there always is.
>> Baywatch, while it had an interesting playfield layout, wasn't much fun to
>> play in my opinion. A large display didn't help it at all, and to put it
>> bluntly, Batman Forever was the only game that even utilized the large DMD
>> to any reasonable degree.
>
> I agree that BF actually *did* something with it whereas in the others, it
> was mostly just... a DMD, only bigger. My impressions of Baywatch are
> based on remembering a couple of long afternoons at, IIRC, the arcade at
> Navy Pier in Chicago sometime in the mid-90s, when I kept finding myself
> playing the Baywatch game. I haven't played it to the point of getting
> sick of it, and I haven't played it recently. What I remember liking about
> it was, as you note, the playfield layout, and I also vaguely recall that
> it seemed to be tongue-in-cheek about its theme.
Well, the Monster Squid (or whatever it was) aside, the game just didn't
have the software to back up that pretty good playfield.
>> Can't argue much on the Black Rose point, though.
>
> See, now I've been expecting to hear argument on that subject. I *wanted*
> to like Black Rose, but I just didn't. In fact I think it was the only
> game ever that was at my neighborhood bar, and I pleaded for them to
> replace it with something else. Mind you, I played it plenty, because
> even pinball that sucks is better than no pinball... but I probably would
> have been delighted if they'd replaced it even with something like
> Robocop (instead, they replaced it by bringing back the TAF that had
> left a while previously, which placated the resident pinheads who were
> all clamoring for Black Rose to leave). Heck, I'd rather play Lethal
> Weapon. ;-)
Well, having played Wolffy's shopped-to-the-nines BR at Expo last month, I
*can* say that it was better than I remembered it being, but that was due in
large part to Wolffy changing the multiball settings so that a player
couldn't rape the game up, down, left, right, underwater, in their sleep,
with the lights out. Instead, you had to hit alternating ramps for SINK
SHIP letters during multiball, which made a big difference. It kept you
from holding a ball or two on the left flipper, shooting the left ramp with
the right flipper, and then banging the third flipper ramp for letter all
day long, which *really* imbalances the scoring in that game. Scores in the
multiple billions aren't only unheard of, they can be relatively common.
Pretty silly in a game with a low replay score (30 million? Maybe?) and a
lack of a massive point shot (i.e. the billion shot in BoP).
While it was nice to see a clean, well-lit example of the game, I still find
it ugly (which is more personal preference than anything else, I suppose), I
think the music is annoyingly repetitive, and I can't *stand* the way Dr.
Flash likes to play unfairly with the ball in front of the flippers a la BR,
CFTBL, Congo, etc. Bugs the crap out of me.
All things being equal, I don't much care for the game, but I've gotta give
credit where it's due: Wolffy, from what I understand, rescued this game
from the depths of despair (or disrepair), and made it play and look as nice
as the game can.
Which, in Black Rose's case, isn't saying that much. ;)
Aron (always crossing that not-so-fine line of criticism and out-and-out
snottiness)
Aron Boag
20031111163803...@mb-m13.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
<pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
If, by "blown out games", you mean "test games monitored by WMS personnel"
and "brand new games that were just removed from their boxes and set up
properly" and "games that were properly maintained", then yes, I've played
*tons* of "blown out games" which exhibited the design problems that I've
documented in the past about AFM and MB, amongst others. I'll rail on them
until the end of time, not simply because I can, but because they SUCK!
SUCK I SAY! SUCK LIKE A FACTORY-FRESH HOOVER!
It *still* appears that you do not have the ability to turn back the hands
of time and cause these things to not happen. You need to work on that, as
you'll never change the facts. :)
Aron (who, even if he isn't always right, is honest, and *consistent*)
KimBrennan
We've been playing it in our league, and a WORKING one, is surprisingly fun to
play (and this is from a lot of folks that did NOT care for it initially).
It's actually a pretty balanced game. It's a very broad game (lots to do), but
not very deep (i.e. you can't stack much on top of any mode, the biggest
exception being squid pops during multiball.)
Finishing CPR (3 left ramps to start, then all 3 of the ramps to finish) is
very satisfying. Harder to do, than it sounds, because that left ramp is >NOT<
forgiving of less than perfect shots.
Shark Cove (which we used to avoid playing when we first played the game) (hit
the shark hole or shark targets, something like 10 times) actually turns out to
be a very lucrative mode and not terribly risky.
Chopper Rescue (hit the standups 2 times each, and then hit the roving lit
ramp) is a bit more challenging.
There are two other main modes, then there is Tourist Season (I've gotten to it
once) and Earthquake (never gotten to that). There is also Guard Millions (if
you do things quickly this can be worth 250 million points.)
I'd almost consider buying one (a friend just did, in fact) and 5 years ago
>THAT< thought would have horrified any of us in the FSPA.
My biggest objection to Data East/Sega games is the horrid sounds that they
have in most of the games. Baywatch has the giggling dolphins which, while bad,
isn't nearly has hurtful to my ears as the screeching bugs in Starship
Troopers, or the Monster groan in Frankenstein.
Having played a number of these games in league, the games aren't as bad as I
thought there were. They are typically, not as DEEP as Williams/Bally games of
the same era, but they are often times as broad or broader in their rules.
It just depends on whether you like going for the same shot(s) over and over,
or having to determine what to shoot depending on what is going on in the game,
knowing that if you don't shoot the right thing, you'll get nothing for your
shot no matter how accurate you were.
"I'm sorry, all my money is tied up in currency."
W.C.Fields
Pinlicious
>Date: 11/11/2003 9:17 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <BBD7026A.F926%boa...@comcast.net>
aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the middle
is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the middle!"
gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing afm on
test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down the gut.
ok, whatever, BUT HEY! the game was on test. you mean to tell me all these
current owners have a mb and afm just to watch their games hurl balls sdtm?
yeah, ok. you are really reaching on your arguements. trying to tell me that
afm or mb are not in the top 20 classic pins of all time is just idiotic. kinda
like saying nbasb is worth owning because you have not beat chicago yet. lol!
(you still going to play pin this friday? same time same place ; )
Aron Boag
20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
<pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
> aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the middle
> is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the middle!"
> gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing afm on
> test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down the
> gut.
No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
Fair enough?
I've never bagged on the theme of AFM, in fact, just the opposite. I've
given it credit for the humor and yes, it qualifies in the "B-Grade Alien
Film From The 60s" category. The design flaw is my biggest beef, and quite
frankly, even when the scoop is behaving perfectly, it's still not exactly a
mind-blowing game to me. We may just like different things.
> ok, whatever, BUT HEY! the game was on test. you mean to tell me all these
> current owners have a mb and afm just to watch their games hurl balls sdtm?
> yeah, ok. you are really reaching on your arguements. trying to tell me that
> afm or mb are not in the top 20 classic pins of all time is just idiotic.
Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: brand-new,
properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
problem, and I'm critical of all games this way. Shadow's easy-to-break
Phurba diverters and Battlefield kicker, Indy's Path of Adventure and Start
Mode hole, and that's just naming a few. In this case, however, you're
talking about an *especially* grievious error in that, inevitably, you're
going to lose a ball or two out of it. All those other mechanical faults
don't cause ball drains. These do. Live with that.
More than that, though, is the fact that, loving AFM like you do, you're
willing to put Monster Bash in the top twenty pins of all time? Are you
flippin' *kidding* me? Even if that game didn't have the *stupid* design
flaw, it's a headlining performer at Yawnapalooza. What absolutely boring
software, ho-hum multiballs, uselessly-different wizard modes (ick...), and
the ever-so-traditional lousy Phantom Flip. The game's easy, it's boring,
and while it may look and sound good, it doesn't even have the panache of
Strobe Multiball or the better humor of AFM to back it up. At least AFM is
harder, with some cool touches, but Monster Bash? Sounds like somebody's
been hitting the Detroit crack themselves, eh?
> kinda
> like saying nbasb is worth owning because you have not beat chicago yet. lol!
Which I've now done, and now I'm wanting to play the game linked. I admit:
I just don't want to get rid of this one. I'd rather just keep acquiring
new pins than get rid of the ones I have. I *like* having a big collection,
even if I can't keep them all in one place. So sue me. ;)
> (you still going to play pin this friday? same time same place ; )
Kinda planning on it. He's cleaning his pins tomorrow (they were *slightly*
dirty today, and a flasher or two were out on T3), but I stopped by today to
play and promptly got spanked by both T3 and Monopoly (whose flippers could
still use a solid rebuilding). Can't remember the last time I got that
whipped around.
What time is the "same time" though?
Aron (yeah, MB is an all-time great, right up there with Shaq Attaq, right?)
Manic
"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD83581.FB85%boa...@comcast.net...
> On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
> 20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
> <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the
middle
> > is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the
middle!"
> > gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing
afm on
> > test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down
the
> > gut.
>
> No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
> Fair enough?
> > Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
brand-new,
> properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
> problem,
A *chronic* problem. Y'know I assume you are a pinball geek and
apparently also a grammar geek but I never thought you were
unintelligent. Bear with me... this is not an insulting post ;-)
Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.
I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
played some nasty ones.
An intelligent person would say "hmmm... since nobody but me is
whining about this... maybe it's just ME" ;-)
(I've been in the position myself before and had to concede that
it WAS more me than others... so I'm not trying to be
insulting).
Does this concept make ANY sense to you whatsoever...?
I'm trying to judge how rational you can be. Please don't
disappoint me ;-)
Aron Boag
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:BBD83581.FB85%boa...@comcast.net...
>> On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
>> 20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
>> <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the
> middle
>>> is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the
> middle!"
>>> gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing
> afm on
>>> test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down
> the
>>> gut.
>>
>> No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
>> Fair enough?
>>> Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
> brand-new,
>> properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
>> problem,
>
> A *chronic* problem. Y'know I assume you are a pinball geek and
> apparently also a grammar geek but I never thought you were
> unintelligent. Bear with me... this is not an insulting post ;-)
"Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too: Monster
Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
right?
> Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
> LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
> reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.
> I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
> played some nasty ones.
In fairness, I wasn't on RGP in 1996, or I would have been screaming my head
off about it. I've had it happen to me lots of times, although oddly, not
in recent days.
> An intelligent person would say "hmmm... since nobody but me is
> whining about this... maybe it's just ME" ;-)
I can understand why you'd say this...
> (I've been in the position myself before and had to concede that
> it WAS more me than others... so I'm not trying to be
> insulting).
...and I'm not taking it in an insulting way...
> Does this concept make ANY sense to you whatsoever...?
> I'm trying to judge how rational you can be. Please don't
> disappoint me ;-)
...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like
to think that my bitching had at least some small part of having AP's scoop
shoot that ball onto the *same* side of the playfield. I'm probably wrong
on that particular design example (the AP one), but I'd like to *think* that
I'm right. ;)
More than that, to claim that "it's just me" would be to negate the
too-frequent experiences which I used to have with AFM and MB (and still
have with MB in particular). I refuse to back down on this issue because it
*did* happen to me, many times, on many occasions, on many different
machines, at many different locations. One place in particular (Marvin's)
had *many* people complaining about said issue, and there just wasn't
anything that they could do to fix it, until eventually the scoop broke off,
which *completely* sucked.
Sorry, Manic. I just can't make that journey into
Ignoreitanditgoesawayville with you. It must be a nice place, because lots
of folks seem to like it, but I'd rather hold fast to what's true, and
*experience* doesn't lie.
Now I ask *you*: do you understand what *I'm* saying?
Aron
cody chunn
is a terrible defect. As well, the same problem exists on MB. Also, the
DracTrack kills most attempts at the right orbit. I agree with Aron that AFM
is a poopie game, but I rather like MB, having a certain affinity for
Universal Monsters. I think both are over-priced.
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W6Asb.35940$E9.3...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Aron Boag
chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I have experienced the SDTM draino-matic SOL eject on many route games. It
> is a terrible defect. As well, the same problem exists on MB. Also, the
> DracTrack kills most attempts at the right orbit. I agree with Aron that AFM
> is a poopie game, but I rather like MB, having a certain affinity for
> Universal Monsters. I think both are over-priced.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?!?!? You mean I'm not the only one? Not possible!
It's only happened to *me*, Cody! Haven't you been listening to the AFM
Cult? Just drink the Kool-Aid... ;)
And there you have it, folks: proof positive that I'm not just making this
crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.
Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
several fronts.
Feel free to disagree, but I'm not the only one who has experienced this
design flaw and its effects, and I'm going to continue to call 'em as I see
'em. Thanks, Cody.
Aron ("AFM: 'still crappy after all of these years...'" [with apologies to
Paul Simon])
someotherguy
all. Yeah, this "problem" happens to all of us AFM owners, and we're ALL lying
about it, just in an apparent vain attempt to drive you insane...
(or maybe it HAS worked! muahahahahah etc.)
Richard
Manic
more to describe this CHRONIC problem that has spoiled ALL
the AFM's for the past 7 years. I would think there would be
LOADS and LOADS of complaints about this CHRONIC
problem.
Sorry but a search in google still shows you to be the main
ranter since you first appeared... and that doesn't lie.
"But since it happened to ME... and gee Cody... then ALL
AFM's must have this problem and it's a CRIME. A
stinkin' CRIME I tell you" ;-)
Remember the guy standing on the street corner with the sign that
says "Repent as the world ends tomorrow" ALSO will yammer
endlessly about how he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
See a future for yourself on the street corner do ya?
--
*Because John Shields HATES to see people's collections:*
M.M, C.V, N.G.G, T.O.M, J.Y, N.F, J.D,
Shad*w, C.F.T.B.L, T.A.F, A.F.M, F.T, W.W
"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD85DA2.FC12%boa...@comcast.net...
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>Yet if the AFM scoop was a *chronic* problem there would be
>LOADS of people complaining about it since 1996 in rgp. Yet a search
>reveals it's really only *YOU* that has been yammering about this.
Then your search wasn't good enough. I have posted about it (od...@reed.edu
and i_o...@hotmail.com), as have several others. Try using a search string
broader than "Boag (AFM|mars) scoop"...
>I have NEVER had this happen on any route machine and I've
>played some nasty ones.
Congratulations! That and a buck 50 might get you a cup of coffee. I, on the
other hand, can point to two AFMs and one MB on location in my area _right
now_ that have misaligned scoops that throw the ball SDTM _every_ _single_
_time_.
Just because you personally haven't experienced something doesn't mean it
doesn't happen or isn't a problem.
Do you go around telling people who lost their houses to fire, tornado,
hurricane, flood or some other disaster that they must not be having any
trouble because your house is fine?
-Iain
cody chunn
plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use, this
may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will. I don't
feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem, but the
problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8UCsb.36118$E9.1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Manic
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ivv5rvcun94gkm225...@4ax.com...
No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.
THAT is the difference
So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
had this happen... this justifies him yammering on endlessly
about it in his every mention of AFM??
With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
things away ;-)
>
> -Iain
Manic
"cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:W6WdnRGLRvK...@comcast.com...
> The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
> plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use,
this
> may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will.
Gee that sounds like virtually ANY pinball title. There is an AFM
that is at a college near me and it has been on 24 hrs a day...
seemingly since 1997 and the scoop *still* hasn't failed.
But this applies to any title... left alone something will fail. TZ
clock, trough sensor, etc... TOM left ramp cracks as target
falls apart etc.
I don't
> feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem,
Well there's the rub... I get tired of hearing the same sad song about
a problem that MOST people haven't experienced. The guy is like
a broken record or a drunk at a bar that keeps repeating
some silly problem that ONLY MATTERS TO THEM but doesn't
have the introspection to realize it.
Even when people *gently* ask them to consider their rant - they
puff out their chest and yell that it is their RIGHT to keep
endlessly boring the crap out of everyone with the same
comments verbatim in each post that even *approaches* the
subject.
This is tiresome to the extreme. Maybe you guys love it...
but the
> problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
> it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.
All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?
Krellan
> A clone has already been made. SST. Check the shots. Check the rules.
I don't think Starship Troopers is a clone of MM at all.
There's a great-condition SST nearby, and I play it fairly often. It
is my second favorite Sega game of all, behind Frankenstein.
SST plays a lot like Jurassic Park, I think, with its focus on hitting
standup targets scattered all over the playfield. The object is to
complete colored groups of monsters, just like JP, to advance.
SST's ramps charge up the Recon Level (random award), which can be
improved by charging it more before it is collected. MM doesn't have
this. MM's random award is completely random, and it is lit by doing
something totally different (hitting targets at the far right).
MM's Castle also doesn't have a parallel in SST. There's the live
fire assault range thing, which is your standard DE/Sega "bash it
repeatedly for Multiball" toy at the center of the game.
I like SST's involvement for player control: after hitting all
monsters, you can choose to immediately start Multiball, or you can
choose to go for the next stage of colored targets in hopes of getting
a better Multiball next time. The closest thing in MM is the
Multiball Madness: you can choose to collect Multiball early, or keep
playing in hopes of collecting a better Multiball later. These are
similar, but the way you go about collecting things and making
decisions is totally different, so I can't call them the same.
Want a clone of MM? Play MB or CC :) But not SST.
Josh
pinball=at=krellan=dot=com
Aron Boag
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wow... ONE other guy chimes in. Hey maybe you find a couple
> more to describe this CHRONIC problem that has spoiled ALL
> the AFM's for the past 7 years. I would think there would be
> LOADS and LOADS of complaints about this CHRONIC
> problem.
Actually, you're not reading my posts. I've already stated, just an hour
ago or so, that the AFM SDTM problem hasn't happened to me in recent days.
True, I hardly ever play the game, but still, it's not been recent.
> Sorry but a search in google still shows you to be the main
> ranter since you first appeared... and that doesn't lie.
However, if you go back and read *your* post, you attributed *all* previous
rantings or complaints about this problem to me, and me alone. Guess you
were wrong on that point, too, eh? There's a difference between being the
*main* complainer, and the *only* one. Just because I'm vocal doesn't make
me alone.
I'd be only too happy to claim the title. I truly am the Leader of the AFM
Distain Movement!"
Your argument loses some *serious* footing when you look at the way I praise
Medieval Madness, though. Odd that, wouldn't you say? Or it is just that
the design was improved (amongst many other aspects), and I recognize that?
It'd be easy to just say "Oh, he hates Brian Eddy games.", but I don't. I
enjoy Shadow and love MM. Or "Oh, he hates Lyman." Again, that's false, as
I think MM's software is spot-on fun, and I do give credit to certain
elements of AFM that I enjoy, such as Strobe Multiball.
Why can't you just accept that I have my opinion, backed up by my
experiences with perfectly good (and even brand new) machines, affirmed by
other people (both RGPers and non-RGPers alike), which differs from your
opinion and experiences? What do I have to *gain* by holding fast and
taking all the flack that I do? I really don't mind it, but it's not like I
get off on it or anything.
Don't like it? Oh well. The world just keeps on a'turnin...
> "But since it happened to ME... and gee Cody... then ALL
> AFM's must have this problem and it's a CRIME. A
> stinkin' CRIME I tell you" ;-)
This is a ludicrous argument, and even *you* know that. I can play any
given Shadow, and if I happen to come upon one that was just fully shopped
and/or repaired yesterday, I'm not going to have *any* of the problems
associated with Shadow, such as bad Phurba diverters, broken Battlefield
kicker, Inner Sanctum wear, and such. Wow! Must be a completely perfect
game as a whole! And if I happen to play an Indiana Jones with a
fully-functioning Mode Start hole, it's perfect design!
Bull. Just because you can make a game completely wonderful after a full
shop job (and/or repairs/mods, and whatever else you have to do that goes
above and beyond the call of reason) doesn't mean that everything is
therefore well-designed. I take exception to many different design
problems, both on games I like and dislike, and you can google for *those*
if you like. Look under IJ, Shadow, MB, AFM, RCT, and that's just right off
the top of my head.
"It's great because it's fixable, and it doesn't do it *every* time!" is
*not* a hallmark of good design, period. When things *consistently* are
problematic in a given title, I've got to believe that better design was
warranted. On good games, it takes away from some of the joy of the game;
it tarnishes it. On bad games, it makes the other faults of the game just
seem that much more apparent, glaring even. However, the main design
problem is still the biggest head-shaker.
> Remember the guy standing on the street corner with the sign that
> says "Repent as the world ends tomorrow" ALSO will yammer
> endlessly about how he is right and the rest of the world is wrong.
Yes, I remember him. Amongst other things, he seems to like to ask for
tests to determine how "rational" someone else is, without being all that
rational himself. And he has a *very* poor memory to go along with his
obstinate attitude.
Not that I'm referring to *you*, of course.
> See a future for yourself on the street corner do ya?
Only if there's an AFM-burning party. I'll be the one front-and-center with
the sign reading "No More Bad Scoop Design!".
Aron (second sign: "No More Scoops That Eat Up The Playfield!")
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
>IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.
You don't need to, although you certainly could. Entropy, sooner or later,
in some form or another, will destroy each and every house that exists
today.
Similarly, when the welds on AFM and MB's scoops break (and they all will,
eventually, unless serious steps are taken to prevent it), the 'failure mode
behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.
>So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
>had this happen...
A handful who have made a stink about it. As I said, I know of two AFMs and
an MB locally (plus two more MBs in New Hampshire) that all do this. That's
five in a fifty mile radius of me _that I know about_. So, that's five more
pin owners...
How many do you need before you don't consider it a "handful"?
>this justifies him yammering on endlessly
>about it in his every mention of AFM??
For him, certainly.
Does your unwillingness to accept that more than a "handful" of AFMs have
(or will have) scoop problems justify your counter-yammering on the subject?
[Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern news
reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
delete any that contain both.]
>With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
>things away ;-)
No, you're not. For you, it's a fun pin and you "know" why it goes for
$3000.
For my part, I like AFM well enough. That doesn't change the fact that the
scoop was a bad design.
-Iain
"Monster Bash," on the other hand: Pure and utter tripe.
Manic
problem it makes you look like someone shouting "fire"
in a movie theatre. Obviously the problem is not NEAR
"chronic" as the game is extremely sought after and there
are maybe a handful of people that have ever mentioned the
problem.
Maybe if you toned down your rhetoric to actually match
the problem you wouldn't come off as such a "sky is falling"
type of individual ;-)
In conclusion (I hope:)
Aron I have respect for your opinion. I'm just sorry you
can't see how *tiresome* it is for someone to repeat the
SAME thing... over and over... every chance they can when
they see the opportunity in a thread.
If THAT makes no sense to you then... well I'm stumped ;-0
"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD873DD.FC48%boa...@comcast.net...
Manic
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5n16rv8ku4u3uenn0...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 04:12:59 GMT, "Manic"
<manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >No but I don't post wildly claiming EVERY house in the area
> >IS or WILL be on fire or flooded.
>
> You don't need to, although you certainly could. Entropy, sooner or
later,
> in some form or another, will destroy each and every house that exists
> today.
>
Please.
> Similarly, when the welds on AFM and MB's scoops break (and they all
will,
> eventually, unless serious steps are taken to prevent it), the 'failure
mode
> behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.
Yup. TZ clocks... CV Ringmaster's... etc...etc... this is certainly
meaningless.
>
> >So because there have been a *handful* of people that have
> >had this happen...
>
> A handful who have made a stink about it. As I said, I know of two AFMs
and
> an MB locally (plus two more MBs in New Hampshire) that all do this.
That's
> five in a fifty mile radius of me _that I know about_. So, that's five
more
> pin owners...
>
> How many do you need before you don't consider it a "handful"?
A lot more than five out of a 3000 plus run.
>
> >this justifies him yammering on endlessly
> >about it in his every mention of AFM??
>
> For him, certainly.
>
> Does your unwillingness to accept that more than a "handful" of AFMs
have
> (or will have) scoop problems justify your counter-yammering on the
subject?
>
> [Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern
news
> reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
> delete any that contain both.]
I hate to do that though. I had hoped that he would see that
just because a post had the letters "AFM" in it... he wouldn't
need to do the tired song and dance.
I may have failed in this endeavor but I *did* try ;-)
>
> >With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
> >things away ;-)
>
> No, you're not. For you, it's a fun pin and you "know" why it goes for
> $3000.
>
> For my part, I like AFM well enough. That doesn't change the fact that
the
> scoop was a bad design.
>
> -Iain
> "Monster Bash," on the other hand: Pure and utter tripe.
Ahhh I always love your posts Mr. Sunshine ;-)
Aron Boag
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "cody chunn" <cch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:W6WdnRGLRvK...@comcast.com...
>> The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
>> plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use,
> this
>> may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will.
>
> Gee that sounds like virtually ANY pinball title. There is an AFM
> that is at a college near me and it has been on 24 hrs a day...
> seemingly since 1997 and the scoop *still* hasn't failed.
When you've been playing it. Have they made any major modifications to the
scoop? Have they had to replace it? How many times? Reinforcements
necessary? Is the playfield area around the scoop eaten up?
> But this applies to any title... left alone something will fail. TZ
> clock, trough sensor, etc... TOM left ramp cracks as target
> falls apart etc.
Yeah, your point? I'd take these things to task, too. I have a good bit
more derision for the AFM/MB scoops since this particular problem actually
causes you to *lose* the ball in play. This bugs me to no end.
> I don't
>> feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem,
>
> Well there's the rub... I get tired of hearing the same sad song about
> a problem that MOST people haven't experienced. The guy is like
> a broken record or a drunk at a bar that keeps repeating
> some silly problem that ONLY MATTERS TO THEM but doesn't
> have the introspection to realize it.
And as exemplified by the others posting, apparently, it matters to more
than just me. You done now?
> Even when people *gently* ask them to consider their rant - they
> puff out their chest and yell that it is their RIGHT to keep
> endlessly boring the crap out of everyone with the same
> comments verbatim in each post that even *approaches* the
> subject.
Well, you "gently" asked me to consider it, and I did, answering in a
reasonable tone, with decent reasons. You got cocky in response, and you
think that's going to make the AFM/MB design problem go away? No, it just
makes your rose-colored glasses just all that much more apparent.
> This is tiresome to the extreme. Maybe you guys love it...
I'm not the one who instigated/continued the conversation. Need me to
google that for you?
> but the
>> problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
>> it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.
>
> All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
> college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
> And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?
I'm familiar with the concept of wear and tear over time. You don't find me
complaining about the bad design of playfield rollover switches when they go
bad. However, in this particular example of design, we're talking about
brand new machines, and machines that are properly cared for, exhibiting
problems basically from the start. What more is there to prove?
In other instances of design problems, updates were sometimes available.
ToM's center ramp eventually had a protector installed at the factory. CV
had ball trap plastics available to get rid of that problem. That's just
two examples. Apparently, that's not the case with AFM.
I'm sorry that your favorite game has a design flaw. But *saying* that it's
all in my head until you turn blue in the face doesn't make it go away.
Neither does "questioning" how "rational" I am.
"Gently" my eye.
Aron
someotherguy
wrote:
>With such a problem I'm surprised people aren't just giving the
>things away ;-)
If only! I'd have a MINT (albeit horribly flawed in re: STDM) one instead of
the slightly worn one that I've got now. Not that I love it any less, mind you.
Richard
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>All machines have parts that will fail with enough play... at the same
>college of the AFM there is a TOTAN that has always had problems.
>And it gets far less play. So what does this prove?
That you are extremely adroit at intentionally missing the point and
introducing straw-man arguments.
-Iain
someotherguy
wrote:
>> [Here's a thought for you: Don't read Aron's AFM rants! Get a modern
>news
>> reader that can check a post for the words "Aron" and "AFM" and have it
>> delete any that contain both.]
>
>I hate to do that though. I had hoped that he would see that
>just because a post had the letters "AFM" in it... he wouldn't
>need to do the tired song and dance.
>I may have failed in this endeavor but I *did* try ;-)
Hey Manic, you mean like you do whenever there's a post with ToTAN in it?
Sorry.. couldn't resist. It was just waaaaaay too easy. ; )
Richard
Manic
"someotherguy" <someotherguy@SPAM_SUCKSsomeotherplace.com> wrote in message
news:mr36rvgsnhiuonlqd...@4ax.com...
Now that's not true Richard... I have *tried* to change ;-) Yes
I did recently backpedal but there was maybe 6 - 8 months where
I saw the title and didn't comment. Didn't even feel the need and I
was proud of myself - but you are right to call me on the carpet
for that last transgression ;-)
metallik
> Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
> right?
For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.
Just FYI to those keeping score :)
> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like
How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?
A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
work right.
If you hate cross-playfield-shooting scoops, I expect to hear complaints
of Whitewater's mine hole. THAT one is evil! :)
metallik
> crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.
So how much did ya pay Cody to post that?? ;-)
> Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
> Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
> several fronts.
And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops.
*BZZT!* Wrong! Thanks for playing.
http://www.mantisamusements.com/afmweld.htm
They've got ones for MB and TZ, too.
-Iain
metallik
> behaviour' is to throw balls SDTM. They all do this. Sooner or later.
If AFM's breaks sufficiently, the 'failure mode' is to throw the ball
straight up into the glass... *POW* What fun! ;)
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>> And there you have it, folks: proof positive that I'm not just making this
>> crap up, it *isn't* "just me", and I'm not without my reasons.
>
> So how much did ya pay Cody to post that?? ;-)
That's the joy of being righteous. I don't *have* to pay to have the truth
come out.
>> Remember the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the *game*."? Well, I do.
>> Although I'm now pretty sure that MB is more hated by me than AFM is, on
>> several fronts.
>
> And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)
An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.
Aron
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>> "Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too: Monster
>> Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several others),
>> right?
>
> For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
> balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.
Okay, but the facts are already in evidence that this *does* happen to more
people than just me.
Here's an even *more* interesting question: how many AFM/MB playfields have
you seen on location wherein the scoop area is eaten up all around that
area? Yeah, *that's* right. Try keeping up with *that* number. Hope you
don't need your fingers and toes to keep score here, because you'll run out
pretty darned quick. *Great* design! ;)
> Just FYI to those keeping score :)
>
>> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the past
>> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard to
>> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
>> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd like
>
> How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?
Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is "everyone",
this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
believe that I'd *still* argue with that.
> A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
> it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
> work right.
I am going to make a serious effort to try to find local AFMs and take
digital pictures of their scoop areas. Remember, we're not talking about
reinforced, replaced, modded, or otherwise "helped" scoops...we're talking
about straight out of the factory, here.
If putting fricking *nails* and *screws* into the playfield is part and
parcel of what makes these things "work right", then yes, it's the best
darned scoop design I've ever seen.
> If you hate cross-playfield-shooting scoops, I expect to hear complaints
> of Whitewater's mine hole. THAT one is evil! :)
I certainly don't like the fact that they cause wear on the playfields, but
I've never heard of anyone whose scoop shot the ball *directly* SDTM on
White Water. Yes, I've had the scoop shoot the ball out and hit the flipper
and/or the lane guide, and immediately go down, but never SDTM without
hitting anything, or at least the *possibility* of hitting anything.
It's never happened with my WCS, either, or any WCS I've ever played.
Starting to see why I think it's a title-specific problem?
Aron
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, burned it in protest. If that's
what you call fun, then have at it. Grab yourself a MB and let the ball
pound the bejeebers out of that one, too.
Aron
Aron Boag
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
He slices, he dices, he makes julienne fries!
Aron (ouch, that's *got* to leave a mark...)
metallik
>
> *BZZT!* Wrong! Thanks for playing.
>
> http://www.mantisamusements.com/afmweld.htm
>
> They've got ones for MB and TZ, too.
Hmmm.. I'd say that's more of a slight improvement rather than a
re-engineering (they just added more weldpoints - didn't change the
design - it still fires across the playfield) - BUT it *was* changed, so
point taken. I need to get one of those, if only because they're
shinier than mine :)
Aron Boag
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
You know, I'm kind of surprised that one doesn't exist for Safe Cracker too,
since it also exhibits this behavior, even on the best HUO games.
Aron
metallik
>
> An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
> look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
> with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.
Not much to ponder. AFM can be fixed to always deliver the ball to the
left flipper. Whether it sucked out of the factory or not, let's judge
gameplay on a fully-working game. You can't fix basic, rotten gameplay
(Pub) ;)
Now, let's discuss Popeye...
-Larry (who is slowly bumping AFM up Aron's ladder by insidiously
wedging crappy pins underneath it :)
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
At least you're willing to admit this point. Now, can you go a step further
and ask yourself *why* that change would be necessary?
I honestly have no problem with a scoop that fires the ball across the
playfield *in principle*, but *in practice* it had better be shown to do
this reliably all day and all night, with only the *freakest* problem that
*occasionally* pops up. Nothing's perfect, after all. These scoops'
problems were more than freaky, occasional problems. Add to that the fact
that the playfield tends to be eaten alive around these scoops, and you're
not going to be hearing how great the design is from *me*.
Aron
metallik
>>balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.
>
> Okay, but the facts are already in evidence that this *does* happen to more
> people than just me.
Won't argue there.. I can't say what others have experienced, only me. I
will also say I haven't seen many AFM's, and the one I bought (right out
of a bar) wasn't a good example because the flippers could barely make
the SOL hole when it was on location :) The balls that dribbled in from
the three dead jets did shoot right to the flipper though.
> Here's an even *more* interesting question: how many AFM/MB playfields have
> you seen on location wherein the scoop area is eaten up all around that
> area? Yeah, *that's* right. Try keeping up with *that* number. Hope you
All of them. THAT is a design flaw. I will also agree the scoop in
RFM/MB sucks. The SOL I can live with, but that other scoop... blech!
I cringe whenever I shoot to the right side of it on my RFM and hear the
ball just grinding into the wood.. 2 layers of mylar and a protector
and it STILL sounds bad.
Thing is, I judge gamplay and design completely seperately. RFM's scoop
sucks donkey nuts indeed, but RFM is still a very entertaining game to
me. To be honest, I rarely ever shoot *for* the scoop while playing,
because I hate the thing.. But I get plenty of fun from the rest of the
game. Bonus Wave and Mothership Multiballs just rock! The modes are
fun and with 1.5 it has some good flow if you open the loops. I get
enough scoop awards from rebounds or the few times I need to shoot it
(EBs, Martian Attacks). A game can be designed badly from a parts
longevity standpoint and still be fun to play. SDTM isn't fun, though,
so a SOL that fires SDTM becomes a gameplay liability. I just haven't
had the displeasure of playing a game that way yet.
> Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
> Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is "everyone",
> this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
> believe that I'd *still* argue with that.
Well, it works fine in every game I've played.. that's about all I can say.
metallik
Not a chance. Adding more welds and using shinier steel is hardly
reengineering. It's simply making the thing out of better materials.
Not that Kerry's scoop is bad.. just that it's the same thing, just
built better.
Re-engineered to me would be something that shot the ball to the right
flipper, or delivered the ball to the playfield like TZ's slot (U-shape
scoop) for better guaranteed aim.
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>>> And where does lovely CP fall into these rankings? :)
>>
>> An interesting question. How does "Insanely boring toyfest that makes TOTAN
>> look like the best pin ever" compare with "Horribly flawed in design, yet
>> with fun aspects"? I'll have to ponder that.
>
> Not much to ponder. AFM can be fixed to always deliver the ball to the
> left flipper. Whether it sucked out of the factory or not, let's judge
> gameplay on a fully-working game. You can't fix basic, rotten gameplay
> (Pub) ;)
Well now, I can't argue with good old-fashioned dead-on logic.
Even so, AFM's payoffs aren't all that fun for me. I'm really not that
crazy about Total Annihilation, Martian Attack Multiball, or the stacking
thereof. I do like the standard 3-ball to a degree, but dislike the
"Everything's a jackpot!" idea a good bit (which isn't just inherent to AFM,
but many other titles as well). Still, getting a Super is decently
satisfying, and I've often been overheard to enjoy a nice Strobe Multiball.
However, Rule The Universe blows, and blows badly. Is it even *possible* to
lose? I never have, and it's over *so* quickly. Look, if that's all it's
going to be, then just spot me 7 billion points or so and get it over with
so I can get back to getting multiball going again. A lousy and
all-too-easy payoff for all the work that goes into getting there.
> Now, let's discuss Popeye...
"Sometimes you hurt my head, Pinky."
> -Larry (who is slowly bumping AFM up Aron's ladder by insidiously
> wedging crappy pins underneath it :)
Which made me laugh quite hard. Good job you're doing of it, too.
Certainly, there are worse games out there. Whether there are games out
there with worse design flaws than that one has, I wouldn't be so sure.
Aron
Manic
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:am66rvk6aj0ecov9b...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:34:26 -0500, metallik
<meta...@fuse.removethis.net>
> wrote:
>
> >No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops.
>
> *BZZT!* Wrong! Thanks for playing.
Sorry but simply making sturdier welds doesn't
qualify as serious "re-engineering". By your dubious logic
then all SDTM shots are caused by AFM's with broken
welds...What about the new ones on test that Aron claimed?
Oh the "chronic problem" isn't caused by the welds?
Then how does this re-engineered" product solve the
problem? Maybe because it's made of stainless steel?
Scoops eventually fail... even ones on other games
that shoot straight down. AFM gets the hell played out of it
on location and deserves replacement parts. Kerry made a nice one.
Manic
> On 11/13/03 12:34 AM, in article 3fb317e2$0$60154$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net,
> "metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>
> >> "Chronic" in *my* experiences. And let's be realistic here, too:
Monster
> >> Bash is also documented as having this problem (amongst several
others),
> >> right?
> >
> > For the record, I have run across one location MB that liked to fling
> > balls SDTM. I have never run across a simlar AFM.
>
> Okay, but the facts are already in evidence that this *does* happen to
more
> people than just me.
>
> Here's an even *more* interesting question: how many AFM/MB playfields
have
> you seen on location wherein the scoop area is eaten up all around that
> area? Yeah, *that's* right. Try keeping up with *that* number. Hope you
> don't need your fingers and toes to keep score here, because you'll run
out
> pretty darned quick. *Great* design! ;)
I see. So at first the problem was that it shoots SDTM (though
nobody here that owns one has this problem) but now it's about
the PF getting chewed up. I don't like what ANY scoop does to
a PF but that wasn't the issue.
By your new cosmetic standard WCS94 is a *seriously* poor design
with it's always dirty and ugly PF saucers. And no real way to prevent
wear on those three guys at all. WCS94 is a fun game but that
exposed saucer concept makes for some ugly PF's.
>
> > Just FYI to those keeping score :)
> >
> >> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the
past
> >> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard
to
> >> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
> >> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd
like
> >
> > How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?
>
> Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
> Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is
"everyone",
> this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
> believe that I'd *still* argue with that.
I've yet to see anybody over here that owns one complain of this. Larry's,
mine, Kevin's, etc all work fine. So you must be referring to blown out
route machines (patented 'licious description - used without author's
permission)
that have had the hell played out of them. And that's
probably understandable as the only game that probably was more
popular than AFM on location recently was MM.
>
> > A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
> > it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
> > work right.
>
> I am going to make a serious effort to try to find local AFMs and take
> digital pictures of their scoop areas. Remember, we're not talking about
> reinforced, replaced, modded, or otherwise "helped" scoops...we're talking
> about straight out of the factory, here.
>
> If putting fricking *nails* and *screws* into the playfield is part and
> parcel of what makes these things "work right", then yes, it's the best
> darned scoop design I've ever seen.
But PF cosmetics is not what this was about. Everyone knows
that scoops beat up the PF but you claim the majority of AFM's
shoot the ball down the middle. Well let's say you mean the
"minority" of them... since virtually NO HU AFM's shoot the
ball down the middle (the deafening silence on this issue
by owners here in rgp seems to attest to that) then all we
are talking about are the few machines left in the field.
So THIS is what's worth bringing up every time you see the
letters "AFM"??? I don't think so. And I apologize
if my remarks got a little heated - I found some of your reply
kinda smug so I got a little animated... I missed my
damn anger management class again ;-)
>
someotherguy
cover up how my SC fires STDM too ; (
When will the madness end!
(And I would NOT call Kerry's AFM scoop a re-engineer; it simply has a complete
weld so it will last longer. The original AFM scoop ain't the only one that
breaks due to substandard welding practices. Kerry's is done the way it should
have been done from the factory, if the factory cared about longevity.)
Richard
metallik
> crazy about Total Annihilation, Martian Attack Multiball, or the stacking
> thereof. I do like the standard 3-ball to a degree, but dislike the
> "Everything's a jackpot!" idea a good bit (which isn't just inherent to AFM,
Hmm.. See, this is what I really like.. Stacking a Martian Attack on the
regular multiball or a TA, along with an open saucer and Super Jets..
You can just go to town then... have the volume cranked to 18 and
you're just blasting and killing stuff right and left.. jackpots here,
jet blasts there, slam home a super jackpot in between.. Oh BABY! I
like the multiple jackpots because you can nail them bam! bam! bam! ..
Plan ahead and you can shoot a few and have a ball ready on the right
flipper for the super just as it appears. I do not play ball-control on
AFM, that is a waste of time on my game. Once the sh*t hits the fan
during one of these stacks, it's all out mayhem.. The machine is waxed,
set to 8 degrees and plays insanely fast. I've had the slings throw
balls into the outlanes on several occasions, things get so wild. Just
keep the balls in play and take whatever shots you can at the jackpots,
saucer or orbits (to get balls in the jets and out of the way for a few
precious seconds). Annihilation is pretty much the same, except you're
building that monster jackpot up the lock loop.. over and over..
If you have an AFM nearby, coax the owner into jacking up the steepness,
waxing it to a super shine and cranking the volume. Rebuild the
flippers if they're even slightly worn... THEN try the sucker! :)
> but many other titles as well). Still, getting a Super is decently
> satisfying, and I've often been overheard to enjoy a nice Strobe Multiball.
Strobe is just too freakin cool!
> However, Rule The Universe blows, and blows badly. Is it even *possible* to
> lose? I never have, and it's over *so* quickly. Look, if that's all it's
> going to be, then just spot me 7 billion points or so and get it over with
Ya know, RTU is kinda lame.. I mean, it's fun, and I like the bit when
you finish it, but yeah, it's too easy. I've lost it twice: once when I
had a total brainfart and just couldn't play for some reason, other time
I tilted trying to shake a ball off the saucer shield gap just as RTU
started. Ooops. But, I don't really play AFM to Rule anymore.. I play
it to set up those aforementioned megastacks and clobber the snot out of
Martians. I do try to achieve RTU, not for the RTU mode, but for those
oh-so-tantalizing Victory Laps afterward. RTU is PEANUTS compared to
what you can rack up on laps! Especially if you planned ahead and had a
few multiballs ready to go just afterward. Victory Laps are AFM's true
wizard mode.
And no matter how much RTU sucks, it doesn't suck as bad as Theatre's
Grand Finale (or whatever it's called).
Aron Boag
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The SDTM problem is the *main* issue. The playfield getting seriously
destroyed is secondary, although hardly insignificant.
> By your new cosmetic standard WCS94 is a *seriously* poor design
> with it's always dirty and ugly PF saucers. And no real way to prevent
> wear on those three guys at all. WCS94 is a fun game but that
> exposed saucer concept makes for some ugly PF's.
I fully agree with you here. I'm always wondering about some way to keep
this from happening (mainly on the Assist eject, where the problem is most
apparent), and I can't seem to think of a solution to the problem. There,
happy now? I've identified this as a problem on my game. However, and
that's a *very* big however, this problem is not *also* joined hand-in-hand
with another problem which severely destroys a game in progress, by sending
a ball SDTM, now does it?
Your point's taken, duly noted, and agreed with. That doesn't invalidate my
point in any way, shape, or form.
>
>>
>>> Just FYI to those keeping score :)
>>>
>>>> ...and yes, the concept *does* make sense to me. I've admitted in the
> past
>>>> when I've made mistakes, or rushed to judgment. However, with regard
> to
>>>> this particular issue, I feel that if I stopped complaining about that
>>>> particular design stupidity, that it might be repeated, yet again. I'd
> like
>>>
>>> How can it be stupid when it works perfectly fine in everyone's game?
>>
>> Again, I want to emphasize the problem with the word "everyone's", here.
>> Unless you happen to know of a certain individual whose name is
> "everyone",
>> this statement is wrong. If you want to qualify it by saying "most", I
>> believe that I'd *still* argue with that.
>
> I've yet to see anybody over here that owns one complain of this. Larry's,
> mine, Kevin's, etc all work fine. So you must be referring to blown out
> route machines (patented 'licious description - used without author's
> permission)
> that have had the hell played out of them. And that's
> probably understandable as the only game that probably was more
> popular than AFM on location recently was MM.
Again, if the only criterion that people have is that these pins work
perfectly in a HUO environment, then we're going to have to agree to
disagree.
>
>>
>>> A design stupidity is something that needs to be re-engineered to make
>>> it work right. No one has re-engineered their AFM scoops. They just
>>> work right.
>>
>> I am going to make a serious effort to try to find local AFMs and take
>> digital pictures of their scoop areas. Remember, we're not talking about
>> reinforced, replaced, modded, or otherwise "helped" scoops...we're talking
>> about straight out of the factory, here.
>>
>> If putting fricking *nails* and *screws* into the playfield is part and
>> parcel of what makes these things "work right", then yes, it's the best
>> darned scoop design I've ever seen.
>
> But PF cosmetics is not what this was about. Everyone knows
> that scoops beat up the PF but you claim the majority of AFM's
> shoot the ball down the middle. Well let's say you mean the
> "minority" of them... since virtually NO HU AFM's shoot the
> ball down the middle (the deafening silence on this issue
> by owners here in rgp seems to attest to that) then all we
> are talking about are the few machines left in the field.
Can't say that, since most HU AFM's have had mods done to prevent such
things from happening. Do you not understand that I'm attacking the way
these things were designed and shipped from the factory? I'm not talking
about people buying one for their basement that gets 5 plays a day, I'm
talking about location games that got 100 plays per day! The stupid scoop
wasn't able to take the kind of use it had to put up with! Even most of
those HU AFM owners have probably changed to Kerry's new scoop, or installed
an NOS one, and they *certainly* have installed protectors.
> So THIS is what's worth bringing up every time you see the
> letters "AFM"??? I don't think so. And I apologize
> if my remarks got a little heated - I found some of your reply
> kinda smug so I got a little animated... I missed my
> damn anger management class again ;-)
Well, no problem. My original reply to your original call for "rational"
thinking was not heated at all, even if you took it that way. I only got
the attitude going when you replied in a pretty nasty manner after trying to
come across as being "a man of peace".
Aron
metallik
> this from happening (mainly on the Assist eject, where the problem is most
> apparent), and I can't seem to think of a solution to the problem. There,
> happy now? I've identified this as a problem on my game. However, and
Try this: Go to automotive store and get a small bottle of auto clear
touchup. Has a brush-top like fingernail polish. Clean the saucer
inside edges, then brush the clear on. Give it a couple good coats, and
let dry, then play. Now, whenever you open up the game to clean or
whatever, run a finger along the saucers... When you feel the clear is
cipping or wearing away, just apply a new coat. If you keep this up,
the wood will never wear, and the clear doesn't wear that fast in home
use (maybe one or two applications a year).
I have noticed no additional saucer wear on my WCS while doing this over
two years. The saucers wer in great shape when I got the game and I
haven't seen any degradation. Pretty easy to do as well. It's even
keeping my AFM from wearing more...
(I am bowing out of the SDTM argument - gotta goto bed! I understand
Aron's point of view - he's been victimized by a few SOL's too many, and
I think he understands my point of view (flaw or not, it's fixable), so
I'm done :)
Manic
"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD893F7.FCC9%boa...@comcast.net...
> On 11/13/03 1:33 AM, in article GAFsb.46247$p9.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net,
> "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
Hey we agreed on WCS's cosmetics... I like that.
>> >
> > But PF cosmetics is not what this was about. Everyone knows
> > that scoops beat up the PF but you claim the majority of AFM's
> > shoot the ball down the middle. Well let's say you mean the
> > "minority" of them... since virtually NO HU AFM's shoot the
> > ball down the middle (the deafening silence on this issue
> > by owners here in rgp seems to attest to that) then all we
> > are talking about are the few machines left in the field.
>
> Can't say that, since most HU AFM's have had mods done to prevent such
> things from happening.
There are no mods to affect the shot of the scoop. Yes there are
scoop protectors made for over a dozen games but that is not
what we were talking about. Mine has a Kerry protector and
that in no way affects the shot of the scoop.
Do you not understand that I'm attacking the way
> these things were designed and shipped from the factory? I'm not talking
> about people buying one for their basement that gets 5 plays a day, I'm
> talking about location games that got 100 plays per day!
So out of the 3000 plus machines from the factory we get a handful
of people (real small handful) that mention having seen the problem.
I'd say that's a damn good track record considering this group loudly
notices ALL things pinball ;-)
The stupid scoop
> wasn't able to take the kind of use it had to put up with! Even most of
> those HU AFM owners have probably changed to Kerry's new scoop, or
installed
> an NOS one, and they *certainly* have installed protectors.
Once again the 5 guys I know here in the group that post and own
AFM *don't* have the Kerry scoop yet. And unless the welds
are shot on your scoop and the thing is leaning like a shack in
a hurricane the Kerry scoop won't affect the aiming of the shot.
>
> > So THIS is what's worth bringing up every time you see the
> > letters "AFM"??? I don't think so. And I apologize
> > if my remarks got a little heated - I found some of your reply
> > kinda smug so I got a little animated... I missed my
> > damn anger management class again ;-)
>
> Well, no problem. My original reply to your original call for "rational"
> thinking was not heated at all, even if you took it that way. I only got
> the attitude going when you replied in a pretty nasty manner after trying
to
> come across as being "a man of peace".
Well that's the ng for ya... anything grey quickly becomes black and white
and you find yourself defending things with far more passion than they
deserve ;-)
I forgot that since the dawn of the lowly bulletin board... *nobody* has
ever changed their opinion on an issue in public. *YOU* know there have
only been a handful of people that complained about AFM's scoop...
yet it's "chronic" to you. *I* know that I have never seen the issue but
*admit* that some must have... so it's a non-starter to me.
There's an irony here somewhere but I'm too tired and bleary to
see it...
-M
>
>
> Aron
>
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>And no matter how much RTU sucks, it doesn't suck as bad as Theatre's
>Grand Finale (or whatever it's called).
Amen, Brother!
*sigh*
-Iain
mark french
Manic
"mark french" <mf10...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031113024127...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> can somebody point me to a post in here that actually mentions LOTR? ; )
Oooops... I thought it stood for Lot Of Tiresome Replies...
mainly my own ;-)
Ok I'm done for tonight folks... don't forget to tip your
waitresses.
Pinlicious
>From: Aron Boag boa...@comcast.net
>Date: 11/12/2003 7:07 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <BBD83581.FB85%boa...@comcast.net>
>
>On 11/12/03 11:12 AM, in article
>20031112111256...@mb-m11.aol.com, "Pinlicious"
><pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> aron, to bag on a theme because some of the games threw balls down the
>middle
>> is stupid. it is all you cling to, "the game fires balls down the middle!"
>> gimmie a break. yeah, so i am supposed to believe that you were playing afm
>on
>> test, with designers watching, and afm was hurling balls straight down the
>> gut.
>
>No, but I brought it to the attention of people at WMS that very night.
>Fair enough?
>
>I've never bagged on the theme of AFM, in fact, just the opposite. I've
>given it credit for the humor and yes, it qualifies in the "B-Grade Alien
>Film From The 60s" category. The design flaw is my biggest beef, and quite
>frankly, even when the scoop is behaving perfectly, it's still not exactly a
>mind-blowing game to me. We may just like different things.
>
>> ok, whatever, BUT HEY! the game was on test. you mean to tell me all these
>> current owners have a mb and afm just to watch their games hurl balls sdtm?
>> yeah, ok. you are really reaching on your arguements. trying to tell me
>that
>> afm or mb are not in the top 20 classic pins of all time is just idiotic.
>
>Not at all. First, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: brand-new,
>properly set up games were doing the very same thing. It's a chronic
>problem, and I'm critical of all games this way. Shadow's easy-to-break
>Phurba diverters and Battlefield kicker, Indy's Path of Adventure and Start
>Mode hole, and that's just naming a few. In this case, however, you're
>talking about an *especially* grievious error in that, inevitably, you're
>going to lose a ball or two out of it. All those other mechanical faults
>don't cause ball drains. These do. Live with that.
>
>More than that, though, is the fact that, loving AFM like you do, you're
>willing to put Monster Bash in the top twenty pins of all time? Are you
>flippin' *kidding* me? Even if that game didn't have the *stupid* design
>flaw, it's a headlining performer at Yawnapalooza. What absolutely boring
>software, ho-hum multiballs, uselessly-different wizard modes (ick...), and
>the ever-so-traditional lousy Phantom Flip. The game's easy, it's boring,
>and while it may look and sound good, it doesn't even have the panache of
>Strobe Multiball or the better humor of AFM to back it up. At least AFM is
>harder, with some cool touches, but Monster Bash? Sounds like somebody's
>been hitting the Detroit crack themselves, eh?
>
>> kinda
>> like saying nbasb is worth owning because you have not beat chicago yet.
>lol!
>
>Which I've now done, and now I'm wanting to play the game linked. I admit:
>I just don't want to get rid of this one. I'd rather just keep acquiring
>new pins than get rid of the ones I have. I *like* having a big collection,
>even if I can't keep them all in one place. So sue me. ;)
>
>> (you still going to play pin this friday? same time same place ; )
>
>Kinda planning on it. He's cleaning his pins tomorrow (they were *slightly*
>dirty today, and a flasher or two were out on T3), but I stopped by today to
>play and promptly got spanked by both T3 and Monopoly (whose flippers could
>still use a solid rebuilding). Can't remember the last time I got that
>whipped around.
>
>What time is the "same time" though?
>
>
>Aron (yeah, MB is an all-time great, right up there with Shaq Attaq, right?)
>
>> pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
oh my god!!!
i go play some tourney t3 and get some dinner and drinks with a lady friend and
look what happens!!! jesus this thread got out of control!!! LOL!
anytime after 7pm at galaxy on friday. bring your dollars ; )
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Abby Franquemont
Pinlicious <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>be it true that black rose lix donkey marbles, don't take arons word on what is
>good an bad in pinball. he chooses to own some interesting themes over the
>likes of afm and mb simply because he played blown out games on location that
>never worked correctly and it haunts him til this day! ; )
Hah! Well, see, while I don't always agree with Aron from what I've
read of his posts in the past 6 months or however long, one thing I
will say is that he *will* get into detail explaining why he holds
the opinions that he does, and that puts him head and shoulders
above a lot of posters who just won't do that. You're another poster
who'll explain reasons for holding opinions, but you know full well
that there are plenty of people who'll just say "$game is the most
awesome ever!" and won't explain *why* it's awesome, or sucks, or
whatever. If we're gonna talk about what games kick butt and what
games don't, I want to read the threads where people are backing up
their opinions with points. And heck, that way, for all I know, I
might try games that I otherwise wouldn't have given much of a
chance, and that could always surprise me and be a win. I actually
have no recollection of ever playing NBA:FB, for example, but now
I'm curious about it. ;-)
--
Abby Franquemont "Chevrolet does not condone being tailgated
J. Random BOFH by a giant ore hauler." -- Trailblazer ad
Abby Franquemont
See, now, for me? ToM just gets all bitchy and, as soon as I get
Grand Finale, drains. So as far as I can tell, it's just a garden
variety "hit all the shots for $points" mode. Is there in fact
any more to it than that?
Abby Franquemont
mark french <mf10...@aol.com> wrote:
>can somebody point me to a post in here that actually mentions LOTR? ; )
Assuming the References: header isn't already broken, then
<3fb3290c$0$92696$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net> should. ;-)
However, the point of this thread is really just to rope people
in and force them to endure the same argument about AFM's
design flaws or lack thereof, so the obfuscatory Subject: line
is essential to that pursuit.
Still, this thread doesn't even take top honors for recent r.g.p.
posts evolving into... something completely unrelated. After all,
this one remains about pinball, and we haven't gotten off into,
say, sports or politics yet.
Lloyd Olson
winning the T3 in the E online tournament which quickly turned into Rick's cow
getting shot in a field by a neighbor thinking it was a coyote. Hard to top
that thread. R.I.P. Walter. LTG :)
"Abby Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote in message
news:hiv0pb...@ucan.foad.org...
Abby Franquemont
cody chunn <cch...@comcast.net> wrote:
>The design flaw is inherent in *every* model of that title. With enough
>plays, the scoop *will* break or bend back and eject SDTM. In home use, this
>may never happen. In commercial use, unattended, they *all* will. I don't
>feel the need to berate the games repeatedly for the problem, but the
>problem exists on every one there is. If the failure has not occurred yet,
>it simply has not had enough play, or it has been modified.
I think you can think about this, also, from the perspective of
not necessarily "design flaw" but "Achilles heel." One could argue,
for instance, that Twilight Zone suffers either a design flaw or
Achilles heel because if the slot machine kickout isn't working,
you functionally cannot play the game -- it wouldn't just mean
certain aspects didn't score what they should, or you couldn't
achieve certain features, or that kind of thing, it would mean you
would shoot the ball and supposing you make the skill shot,
then wind up in the pop bumpers, then on the left flipper, well,
don't hit the slot machine, player piano, Camera, dead end, or
battle the power and win, because you won't get that ball back
and play cannot continue. In other words, TZ as designed has a
single critical point of failure. And this is true of just about
any game one cares to mention -- there are things which, if not
working properly or properly adjusted, kill the game.
By the same token, lots of games have absolute and total sucker shots,
where if you take the shot, there is a serious risk (whether you hit
it or not) of immediate drainage. Take WhirlWind: it has a darned
risky skill shot in my experience, and no "free ride" style ball
saver to protect you if choose the skill shot. Personally, I view
the "shot in the center at the top of the playfield" to be such a
sucker shot in pretty much every game it's in. I generally am not
a huge fan of games where that shot is also categorically essential
to the gameplay. I don't mind the clock shot in TZ, for instance,
because it's really just a scoring opportunity -- never going for
that shot doesn't mean you'll never complete core game objectives.
Arguably TSPP's garage shot is such a shot, too -- athough I have
not experienced a consistent problem with hitting the garage and
draining SDTM on any of the TSPP's I've played.
Oh, yeah, and I've experienced a handful of AFMs with the stdm
problem -- but, to be honest, I've found that problem to be worse
with MM than AFM, possibly because the castle gate and the drop
target react differently when struck by the ball. Aaaand I have
played an equal number of AFMs which don't have that problem, but
no MM which doesn't. And in neither case is it *every* time --
it's just, as I see it, a shot with a relatively high drainage risk.
Abby Franquemont
Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Well, having played Wolffy's shopped-to-the-nines BR at Expo last month, I
>*can* say that it was better than I remembered it being, but that was due in
>large part to Wolffy changing the multiball settings so that a player
>couldn't rape the game up, down, left, right, underwater, in their sleep,
>with the lights out. Instead, you had to hit alternating ramps for SINK
>SHIP letters during multiball, which made a big difference. It kept you
>from holding a ball or two on the left flipper, shooting the left ramp with
>the right flipper, and then banging the third flipper ramp for letter all
>day long, which *really* imbalances the scoring in that game. Scores in the
>multiple billions aren't only unheard of, they can be relatively common.
>Pretty silly in a game with a low replay score (30 million? Maybe?) and a
>lack of a massive point shot (i.e. the billion shot in BoP).
That would improve the game, yes. Overall my major complaints were,
get a multiball and that's that, on the plus side you'll be getting
replays all night, but on the down side, you won't wanna use 'em. ;-)
I disliked the video mode stuff. I thought the cannon was wanky. I
disliked the right-in-the-center-top sucker shot. I found all the
things Black Rose said hokey and infinitely mockable. I felt like the
whole game was orange and brown, blech. Games for me would either
suck completely ("Dammit, why *do* I keep bothering with shooting for
the sucker shot like that?") or be really high-scoring but totally
repetitive, and you're right, there was no "holy grail" shot... so
even when I had a good game, it just never *felt* like I had had a
good game of pinball. The game came to my favourite neighborhood bar
brand-new in, what, 1992 I think it was? I don't think I've played
one since around that time, so this is all from memory and could be
flawed.
Kudos to wolffy for thinking through what settings changes would
make the game more fun, too, man.
>While it was nice to see a clean, well-lit example of the game, I still find
>it ugly (which is more personal preference than anything else, I suppose), I
>think the music is annoyingly repetitive, and I can't *stand* the way Dr.
>Flash likes to play unfairly with the ball in front of the flippers a la BR,
>CFTBL, Congo, etc. Bugs the crap out of me.
Eh... yes and no (doesn't bug me at all on CFTBL, but yes on BR and
Congo). I liked the artwork effect of the pirates looking like they
were standing on the plastics by the inlanes, going across the lanes,
then onto the slingshot plastics. The playfield had all the sort of
pirate motifs you could want and some of 'em were really well done.
But in terms of colour combinations, the game reminded me of, like,
some godawful minidress from 1967, or something.
>All things being equal, I don't much care for the game, but I've gotta give
>credit where it's due: Wolffy, from what I understand, rescued this game
>from the depths of despair (or disrepair), and made it play and look as nice
>as the game can.
That is always, always, always worth credit in my book. And like I
say, I played the game plenty, because even pinball that's not very
satisfying is better than no pinball.
Pinlicious
>Date: 11/13/2003 2:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <j6n0pb...@ucan.foad.org>
playing nbasb is like waking up next to an ugly girl the next morning...if you
have ever played either you would know it, it stays with you forever and you
will regret it even longer... ; )
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
>--
Ron Strom
bone. I sure hope Walter tasted good. :-)
--
Ron - CARGPB7 - ron...@hothouse.net
Change the hot to ice to email
In article <I5Usb.251406$0v4.17...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
l...@ssbilliards.com says...
Lloyd Olson
Any beef served at Rick's house must come from no name cows. LTG :)
"Ron Strom" <see_m...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a1dba62...@wa.news.verio.net...
Abby Franquemont
Lloyd Olson <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
[re: topic drift]
>Top honors would probably be the thread that started out with Nomad not
>winning the T3 in the E online tournament which quickly turned into Rick's cow
>getting shot in a field by a neighbor thinking it was a coyote. Hard to top
>that thread. R.I.P. Walter. LTG :)
Oh, man, that *was* a good one. The one that ended up with immigration
and soccer was pretty good too, but it lacked that Swanson Factor
that makes the one you're nominating a true classic. There's just about
no topping some of Rick's stories, like that second story delivery one.
He should get some sort of award for all the levity he brings us, if
you ask me.
Abby Franquemont
Pinlicious <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>playing nbasb is like waking up next to an ugly girl the next morning...if you
>have ever played either you would know it, it stays with you forever and you
>will regret it even longer... ; )
But so where does asking for information about if fall on the scale
of questions like "Does this dress make my butt look fat?"
Hey, which game is the one with the moving basketball hoop, again?
Aron Boag
"Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> "Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:BBD893F7.FCC9%boa...@comcast.net...
>> On 11/13/03 1:33 AM, in article GAFsb.46247$p9.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net,
>> "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
> Hey we agreed on WCS's cosmetics... I like that.
Well, I'm not *blind*, even to the flaws of my own favorite game. I have
actual reasons for why I say the things I do, but I don't go around with my
fingers in my ears and saying, "I can't hear you!
LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA..." when someone starts to critque games that I
like. I don't mind discussing their faults; but certain faults obviously
bug me more than others. Guess which ones? ;)
>>>>
>>> But PF cosmetics is not what this was about. Everyone knows
>>> that scoops beat up the PF but you claim the majority of AFM's
>>> shoot the ball down the middle. Well let's say you mean the
>>> "minority" of them... since virtually NO HU AFM's shoot the
>>> ball down the middle (the deafening silence on this issue
>>> by owners here in rgp seems to attest to that) then all we
>>> are talking about are the few machines left in the field.
>>
>> Can't say that, since most HU AFM's have had mods done to prevent such
>> things from happening.
>
> There are no mods to affect the shot of the scoop. Yes there are
> scoop protectors made for over a dozen games but that is not
> what we were talking about. Mine has a Kerry protector and
> that in no way affects the shot of the scoop.
Well, actually I was referring to the lack of a weld on the new scoops Kerry
produced, not so much the protector. The weld *can* have an effect on the
ball when it's shot out. The protector deals only with the cosmetic issue,
but you must agree that the AFM/MB cosmetic issue is *not* a small matter,
either.
> Do you not understand that I'm attacking the way
>> these things were designed and shipped from the factory? I'm not talking
>> about people buying one for their basement that gets 5 plays a day, I'm
>> talking about location games that got 100 plays per day!
>
> So out of the 3000 plus machines from the factory we get a handful
> of people (real small handful) that mention having seen the problem.
> I'd say that's a damn good track record considering this group loudly
> notices ALL things pinball ;-)
I'm not sure that I can agree with this assessment, but if I did, I'd spot
you a point.
> The stupid scoop
>> wasn't able to take the kind of use it had to put up with! Even most of
>> those HU AFM owners have probably changed to Kerry's new scoop, or
> installed
>> an NOS one, and they *certainly* have installed protectors.
>
> Once again the 5 guys I know here in the group that post and own
> AFM *don't* have the Kerry scoop yet. And unless the welds
> are shot on your scoop and the thing is leaning like a shack in
> a hurricane the Kerry scoop won't affect the aiming of the shot.
Well, then, how do you explain my experiences? How can you explain that a
local operator, who *very much* wanted to stop the SDTM problem, ended up
with a broken scoop as a result of his trying to stop the problem? It's not
the only one I've seen, and it wasn't exactly a blown-out game at the time.
>>
>>> So THIS is what's worth bringing up every time you see the
>>> letters "AFM"??? I don't think so. And I apologize
>>> if my remarks got a little heated - I found some of your reply
>>> kinda smug so I got a little animated... I missed my
>>> damn anger management class again ;-)
>>
>> Well, no problem. My original reply to your original call for "rational"
>> thinking was not heated at all, even if you took it that way. I only got
>> the attitude going when you replied in a pretty nasty manner after trying
> to
>> come across as being "a man of peace".
>
> Well that's the ng for ya... anything grey quickly becomes black and white
> and you find yourself defending things with far more passion than they
> deserve ;-)
Fair enough. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em, but sometimes I can't tell
what's in fun and what's mean-spirited. The written word makes it extremely
hard to tell sometimes, and thus, the use of smileys and such to indicate
mood.
> I forgot that since the dawn of the lowly bulletin board... *nobody* has
> ever changed their opinion on an issue in public. *YOU* know there have
> only been a handful of people that complained about AFM's scoop...
> yet it's "chronic" to you. *I* know that I have never seen the issue but
> *admit* that some must have... so it's a non-starter to me.
That's not true. As a matter of fact, just within the past year or so, I
changed my tune about High Roller Casino, and said so right here on the
newsgroup, in the public eye. My shortsightedness didn't allow me to see
the nuances of the software that Keith had included to make playing the game
a lot better than one would think possible with that pretty bad playfield.
He makes good use of all four shots, and requires a decent bit of strategy
for the truly big payoffs, and even then, there's a good deal of risk/reward
to be taken into consideration. I still don't think that the game is
terrific, but it's certainly a fair bit better than the piece of putrescence
that I once believed it to be, and didn't have a problem saying so. The
software, however, is quite engaging, and makes up a good bit for the lousy
playfield, the ho-hum music and sounds (many of which are annoying), and the
okay artwork (which I like, but don't love, or anywhere close to it).
Probably in the 6s on the Aron-O-Meter, which is better than average, but
that's a heckuva lot better than the 3-4 I would have given it previously.
That being said, I think that the AFM scoop issue is a bit more far-reaching
that most would like to admit, because a *lot* of people like the game,
which I feel is just so-so. The massive group of people who like the game
don't care to acknowledge the idea that this *could* be a design flaw,
because it's their favorite game! "I love AFM! There's no design flaw! It
rawks!" I love WCS, too, but it's got a few faults that I'd acknowledge,
too, and I do. There's a part of me that rolls my eyes when people accuse
me of being completely blinded by my love for WCS (which I'm not), but they
themselves are so taken with AFM that they can't even see, much less
acknowledge the possibility of, a design flaw in that game. It's really the
pot calling the kettle black.
I'm not saying that you do this, Manic or Larry, but there are obviously
people out there that do.
> There's an irony here somewhere but I'm too tired and bleary to
> see it...
::wearily and blearily, yet with a certain hopefulness::
So, does this mean I *win* the debate? ;)
Aron (what do I win? ;) )
> -M
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Aron
>>
>
>
Aron Boag
"Iain Odlin" <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, shoot, that just goes without saying, now doesn't it? Is there a
*worse* (and I want to put this in quotes, because I hardly believe that it
deserves this moniker) "wizard mode" than Grand Finale?
I'm at a loss for ideas...
Aron
> *sigh*
> -Iain
Rick Swanson
> Walter was Rick's bud. I'm fairly confident he didn't end up in the freezer.
> Any beef served at Rick's house must come from no name cows. LTG :)
>
We have a strict policy around our house about not eating any animal that was
once featured on our Christmas Cards.
We also have a strict policy about not selling any pinball machine upon which we
have had sex. Unfortunately, my entire collection is eligible for sale.
Actually, just about everything in my house is eligible for sale. ;-)
Rick Swanson
Morristown, TN
CARGPB#6
Aron Boag
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:
> I actually
> have no recollection of ever playing NBA:FB, for example, but now
> I'm curious about it. ;-)
You know, it really isn't that great of a pin. It's not the barfaholic that
Koz makes it out to be, but it's not all that fun to play, at least alone.
I've yet to play a linked game, so that may be better. But it really isn't
that great a game. For some reason, I *still* don't want to get rid of
it...they're like my children or something.
Aron
Aron Boag
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:
> In article <sob6rvgbivdgiiksk...@4ax.com>,
> Iain Odlin <i_o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 01:47:40 -0500, metallik <meta...@fuse.removethis.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And no matter how much RTU sucks, it doesn't suck as bad as Theatre's
>>> Grand Finale (or whatever it's called).
>>
>> Amen, Brother!
>>
>> *sigh*
>
> See, now, for me? ToM just gets all bitchy and, as soon as I get
> Grand Finale, drains. So as far as I can tell, it's just a garden
> variety "hit all the shots for $points" mode. Is there in fact
> any more to it than that?
Absolfrickinglutely! There's the sheer boredom which extends from the
knowledge that by hitting *any* twelve shots, you can score an insane amount
of points, and basically doing it in your sleep. There's no multiball, all
shots (including the trunk) spot letters (and 50 million), and yes, looping
shots is allowed, meaning the center ramp gets raped for approximately 20
seconds, and it's over.
We're talking Boredom Supreme!
Aron
Aron Boag
Franquemont" <ab...@ucan.foad.org> wrote:
> In article <20031113181432...@mb-m13.aol.com>,
> Pinlicious <pinli...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> playing nbasb is like waking up next to an ugly girl the next morning...if
>> you
>> have ever played either you would know it, it stays with you forever and you
>> will regret it even longer... ; )
>
> But so where does asking for information about if fall on the scale
> of questions like "Does this dress make my butt look fat?"
>
> Hey, which game is the one with the moving basketball hoop, again?
That would be Shaq Attaq. And NBA:FB somehow makes Shaq look even *worse*,
as if that were possible.
Aron
metallik
Do you speak from experience?? ;)
What was your high score.. on her...?? heehee
metallik
I actually went and looked that up.. it's really a word :) Thought you
were making things up on me... hehehe
> That being said, I think that the AFM scoop issue is a bit more far-reaching
Speaking of scoops shooting SDTM, I got to watch a rather funny little
sequence the other day.. Buddy of mine (yeah, you!) is playing TAF..
gets the 3-ball multiball and winds up in a ferocious little battle with
the electric chair - while desperately trying to keep the three balls
alive on the lower playfield with the Power going full tilt, he kept
knocking balls into the chair.. every time the chair tried to eject,
he'd knock the ball back in or shoot another into it. Eventually he
manages to ram all three balls down the chair's throat, at which point
the chair (thru some combination of the balls stacked in it and the
effects of the Power) proceeds to belch the first ball SDTM.. waits a
second, then belches the second one SDTM, waits a sec, then the third
right towards the drain. First two were unsaveable.. he got a flipper
on the 3rd but the Power quickly send it down the drains to join it's
brothers. VERY funny! (maybe not for him though :) The chair normally
delivers the ball right to the base of the left flipper every time, so
this was some whacked out stuff here...
> Aron (what do I win? ;) )
Five free games on my AFM!
metallik
> knowledge that by hitting *any* twelve shots, you can score an insane amount
Any shot scores the 50M? Didn't know that.. When I got it I just
looped the left ramp about 15 times til someone told me it was done...
> shots (including the trunk) spot letters (and 50 million), and yes, looping
> shots is allowed, meaning the center ramp gets raped for approximately 20
> seconds, and it's over.
Sounds familiar!
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>> terrific, but it's certainly a fair bit better than the piece of putrescence
>
> I actually went and looked that up.. it's really a word :) Thought you
> were making things up on me... hehehe
What? You mean you've never watched the movie "The Princess Bride"? Shame
on you! It's truly an absolute classic.
>> That being said, I think that the AFM scoop issue is a bit more far-reaching
>
> Speaking of scoops shooting SDTM, I got to watch a rather funny little
> sequence the other day.. Buddy of mine (yeah, you!) is playing TAF..
> gets the 3-ball multiball and winds up in a ferocious little battle with
> the electric chair - while desperately trying to keep the three balls
> alive on the lower playfield with the Power going full tilt, he kept
> knocking balls into the chair.. every time the chair tried to eject,
> he'd knock the ball back in or shoot another into it. Eventually he
> manages to ram all three balls down the chair's throat, at which point
> the chair (thru some combination of the balls stacked in it and the
> effects of the Power) proceeds to belch the first ball SDTM.. waits a
> second, then belches the second one SDTM, waits a sec, then the third
> right towards the drain. First two were unsaveable.. he got a flipper
> on the 3rd but the Power quickly send it down the drains to join it's
> brothers. VERY funny! (maybe not for him though :) The chair normally
> delivers the ball right to the base of the left flipper every time, so
> this was some whacked out stuff here...
Well, these types of occurrences are not what I'm referring to, of course.
I'm talking about the problem happening during single ball play. You knew
that, and I know you knew that, but I just wanted to be clear for the rest
of the folks who'd object because "you're taking aim when it's not supposed
to *do* that!"
It is an amusing story though, and sounds like par for the course with The
Power of the Addams Family.
As a side note, have you ever noticed several themes that run through Pat's
games? Clocks (TZ, FH, RS [time clock]), Power (Whirlwind, TZ, TAF), and
such? Kinda makes you wonder when he'll be bringing one of the themes
back...
>> Aron (what do I win? ;) )
>
> Five free games on my AFM!
Usually, a prize is a *good* thing, but then, I guess that's why the top
winner in The Price Is Right gets the choice of bidding on the first
Showcase, or passing it to the runner up and taking Showcase #2 for
themselves: sometimes prizes can just plain suck. ;)
Aron
Ron Strom
that I think about it, she'd have to to put up with you ;-)
metallik
> I'm talking about the problem happening during single ball play. You knew
> that, and I know you knew that, but I just wanted to be clear for the rest
> of the folks who'd object because "you're taking aim when it's not supposed
> to *do* that!"
Oh, I know.. It was just hilarious to watch, and kinda fit the thread
here about scoops tossing balls down the drain.. (too bad the subject is
still LOTR :)
> As a side note, have you ever noticed several themes that run through Pat's
> games? Clocks (TZ, FH, RS [time clock]), Power (Whirlwind, TZ, TAF), and
> such? Kinda makes you wonder when he'll be bringing one of the themes
> back...
Not sure.. His hands were kinda tied with licensing on Monopoly and
RCT.. I wonder if Stern will ever let him do an original game?? If not,
he could maybe work something in, depending on the license...
> Usually, a prize is a *good* thing, but then, I guess that's why the top
> winner in The Price Is Right gets the choice of bidding on the first
> Showcase, or passing it to the runner up and taking Showcase #2 for
> themselves: sometimes prizes can just plain suck. ;)
Would you like what is behind door number two instead?? <evil grin>
Iain Odlin
>See, now, for me? ToM just gets all bitchy and, as soon as I get
>Grand Finale, drains. So as far as I can tell, it's just a garden
>variety "hit all the shots for $points" mode. Is there in fact
>any more to it than that?
Nope. That's why lots of us think it's the most disappointing "Wizard Mode".
There's no 'there' there...
-Iain
who didn't even realize he'd started the "Wizard Mode" the first time he ever
got there on his ToM. Tells you how exciting it is...
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>> Aron (what do I win? ;) )
>
>Five free games on my AFM!
Ah! The booby-prize! ;)
-Iain
Iain Odlin
>Well, shoot, that just goes without saying, now doesn't it? Is there a
>*worse* (and I want to put this in quotes, because I hardly believe that it
>deserves this moniker) "wizard mode" than Grand Finale?
>
>I'm at a loss for ideas...
Does "Popeye" have one? Have any of us played one that long?
-Iain
Aron Boag
"metallik" <meta...@fuse.removethis.net> wrote:
>> As a side note, have you ever noticed several themes that run through Pat's
>> games? Clocks (TZ, FH, RS [time clock]), Power (Whirlwind, TZ, TAF), and
>> such? Kinda makes you wonder when he'll be bringing one of the themes
>> back...
>
> Not sure.. His hands were kinda tied with licensing on Monopoly and
> RCT.. I wonder if Stern will ever let him do an original game?? If not,
> he could maybe work something in, depending on the license...
Well, he certainly worked The Power into his share of licensed titles...
>> Usually, a prize is a *good* thing, but then, I guess that's why the top
>> winner in The Price Is Right gets the choice of bidding on the first
>> Showcase, or passing it to the runner up and taking Showcase #2 for
>> themselves: sometimes prizes can just plain suck. ;)
>
> Would you like what is behind door number two instead?? <evil grin>
Aw, heck. I'll just quit while I'm ahead and bid on Showcase #1, but I'll
purposely overbid so that I have no *chance* of winning, and won't have to
pay taxes on that kind of garbage. ;)
Aron
The Korn
> We also have a strict policy about not selling any pinball machine upon which we
> have had sex. Unfortunately, my entire collection is eligible for sale.
> Actually, just about everything in my house is eligible for sale. ;-)
That was absolutely _TOO_ hilarious!! :)
Manic
"Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BBD991EB.FE41%boa...@comcast.net...
> On 11/13/03 2:10 AM, in article H7Gsb.46776$p9....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net,
> "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > "Aron Boag" <boa...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:BBD893F7.FCC9%boa...@comcast.net...
> >> On 11/13/03 1:33 AM, in article
GAFsb.46247$p9.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net,
> >> "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >
> > Hey we agreed on WCS's cosmetics... I like that.
>
> Well, I'm not *blind*, even to the flaws of my own favorite game. I have
> actual reasons for why I say the things I do, but I don't go around with
my
> fingers in my ears and saying, "I can't hear you!
> LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA..." when someone starts to critque games that I
> like. I don't mind discussing their faults; but certain faults obviously
> bug me more than others. Guess which ones? ;)
I dunno - maybe you should simply speak up more... quit being
such a shrinking violet over here ;-)
Now see.. you are now starting to fit my definition of "rational" -
actually seeing a *little* of the other guy's opinion. And for the
record I don't like scoops either... they demolish PF's.
>
> > The stupid scoop
> >> wasn't able to take the kind of use it had to put up with! Even most
of
> >> those HU AFM owners have probably changed to Kerry's new scoop, or
> > installed
> >> an NOS one, and they *certainly* have installed protectors.
> >
> > Once again the 5 guys I know here in the group that post and own
> > AFM *don't* have the Kerry scoop yet. And unless the welds
> > are shot on your scoop and the thing is leaning like a shack in
> > a hurricane the Kerry scoop won't affect the aiming of the shot.
>
> Well, then, how do you explain my experiences? How can you explain that a
> local operator, who *very much* wanted to stop the SDTM problem, ended up
> with a broken scoop as a result of his trying to stop the problem? It's
not
> the only one I've seen, and it wasn't exactly a blown-out game at the
time.
That's just it... I can't explain it. Anymore than you can explain why *I*
have never had this experience (and I've played some beaters) and why there
hasn't been more than a handful of people that have posted about this
in the past 7 years.
>
> >>
> >>> So THIS is what's worth bringing up every time you see the
> >>> letters "AFM"??? I don't think so. And I apologize
> >>> if my remarks got a little heated - I found some of your reply
> >>> kinda smug so I got a little animated... I missed my
> >>> damn anger management class again ;-)
> >>
> >> Well, no problem. My original reply to your original call for
"rational"
> >> thinking was not heated at all, even if you took it that way. I only
got
> >> the attitude going when you replied in a pretty nasty manner after
trying
> > to
> >> come across as being "a man of peace".
> >
> > Well that's the ng for ya... anything grey quickly becomes black and
white
> > and you find yourself defending things with far more passion than they
> > deserve ;-)
>
> Fair enough. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em, but sometimes I can't tell
> what's in fun and what's mean-spirited. The written word makes it
extremely
> hard to tell sometimes, and thus, the use of smileys and such to indicate
> mood.
Well heck I do get hot during some conversations but I would like to think
I at least try to make it right... with the *good* people over here anyways
;-)
It's such a specialized hobby I appreciate all the old-timers around here.
Look how many odd names are appearing offering big bucks for any of
the popular late 90's machines... this can't be a good thing for the hobby.
>> That being said, I think that the AFM scoop issue is a bit more
far-reaching
> that most would like to admit, because a *lot* of people like the game,
> which I feel is just so-so. The massive group of people who like the game
> don't care to acknowledge the idea that this *could* be a design flaw,
> because it's their favorite game! "I love AFM! There's no design flaw!
It
> rawks!" I love WCS, too, but it's got a few faults that I'd acknowledge,
> too, and I do. There's a part of me that rolls my eyes when people accuse
> me of being completely blinded by my love for WCS (which I'm not), but
they
> themselves are so taken with AFM that they can't even see, much less
> acknowledge the possibility of, a design flaw in that game. It's really
the
> pot calling the kettle black.
>
> I'm not saying that you do this, Manic or Larry, but there are obviously
> people out there that do.
I'll stick with my assertion that if the problem was NEARLY as bad as you
describe it... there would be more than a handful of people or reports
over the years. Remeber this was a machine that really got played on
location... and still can out-earn a brand new machine. Considering the
amount of play and the vocal people in this group... there would have
been A LOT more people commenting on this. A lot more.
And I know you have to at least PARTIALLY accept this
argument - and let's leave it at that.
PUH-LEEEZ!! ;-)
>
> > There's an irony here somewhere but I'm too tired and bleary to
> > see it...
>
> ::wearily and blearily, yet with a certain hopefulness::
>
> So, does this mean I *win* the debate? ;)
I'm going to call it a draw as I can't explain your experiences and you
can't
explain the lack of posts about the problem over the years.
Besides you only win these debates by simply *exhausting* the other
posters ;-)
I need a quick eight hour power nap after this. Or a coffee machine built
into my Dell.
-M (who knows debating Aron is *never* a quick or
casual thing)
Abby Franquemont
Aron Boag <boa...@comcast.net> wrote:
[NBA:FB]
>You know, it really isn't that great of a pin. It's not the barfaholic that
>Koz makes it out to be, but it's not all that fun to play, at least alone.
>I've yet to play a linked game, so that may be better. But it really isn't
>that great a game. For some reason, I *still* don't want to get rid of
>it...they're like my children or something.
Haha! So what you're saying is, your attachment to the game is not
entirely unlike my really liking all the roller coaster games? ;-)