notes from "Enhancing the Mozilla Release Process for L10n" IRC and telephone meetings
Asa Dotzler
discussion we had on IRC and the telephone conference call on
2003-12-15. Below is a list of the topics discussed and summaries of the
results of those discussions as well as logs (slightly edited for
spelling and clutter removal) from the IRC discussion. Maybe someone can
create individual discussion threads for followup on each of these
topics (and any others that I've missed).
*Raise the issue of bugs which block or make difficult the localizing of
Mozilla SeaMonkey*
Several bugs were mentioned. Chris and Asa asked for help in identifying
bugs which are causing major difficulties to localizers including both
localizability blockers and bugs critical to specific local markets.
Bugs discussed included RTL theme issues, localizability of particular
SeaMonkey components, and IME bugs among others.
*Discussed what dri...@mozilla.org are doing to make it easier to get
localizations completed*
Chris and Asa explained that change with localization impact will be
disallowed after the Beta release with very few exceptions and the new
"late-l10n" keyword was discussed, which will be used by drivers to
identify any l10n impact changes that do happen after Beta. The goal is
to minimize the amount of change after Beta and to make it very clear to
localizers when we do have a change so that localizers can start work
with the Beta release and feel confident that nothing significant will
have changed between then and the final release. Many people asked about
whether this applies to Firebird and Thunderbird. The plan is for SeaMonkey.
*Requested information from anyone that thinks they will have language
packs completed in time for 1.6*
The schedule for 1.6 is to be completed before Christmas with the CD
coming early in the new year. If you're going to try to get your
localization on the CD, we'll need to hear back from you soon. It wasn't
yet clear where to send those language packs for the 1.6 CD. We're
planning to put language packs, not localized builds, on the CD.
*Began a discussion on getting language resources into the Mozilla CVS
repository*
There are lots of concerns around this, from adding new barriers to
entry for l10n contributors, to build and release issues. This is the
beginning of this discussion and we'd like lots more input. Asa
mentioned that it wasn't likely that we'd immediately add many levels of
review and that, at least in the beginning, we'd probably be focused on
"code" review (making sure it doesn't break the apps) and not "language
review" (making sure the translation is accurate). This is a medium-term
goal and not something we're trying to do for Mozilla 1.6.
*Lots of discussion about what belongs in a language pack*
Some people are including many additional changes in their language
packs including changes to themes, changes to bookmarks/startpage/prefs,
etc, changes to userContent.css, and possibly other "bug fixes". We need
to come up with a clear definition of what constitutes both the minimum
requirements for being included on the CD as well as the limits of
allowable modifications which can still be considered "Mozilla". This is
just the beginning of this discussion and we'd like input from everyone
doing localizations about what you think you need to include in the
localizations.
*Began a discussion about QA and testing*
We need to ensure that these language packs actually work, that they
work across at least Mac, Windows, and Linux, and that they're
sufficiently complete. With a large group of testers it's possible to
check every window and dialog. It was suggested that a script could
check the dtd files and compare them against the defaults to make sure
that every string was localized. Does the MozillaTranslator provide any
of this functionality? Can we improve Mozilla so that it doesn't break
if the localization isn't complete (fall back to english or other
language?) This discussion was just the beginning and it would be good
to have people continue it.
Log from the morning (US time) IRC meeting:
<noririty> http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=215787 I think
this bug also blocks localize.
<chofmann> noririty: ok we will add to the list. smon...@smontagu.org
is on the call and may have additional time to work on that bug...
<noririty> thank you
<davidfraser_> would it be helpful for anyone to have a summary of the
phone discussion on this chat?
<chofmann> yes, I will prepare minutes.
<chofmann> we have also added a bugzilla keyword "late-l10n" to help
identifying late breaking string changes in the release
<chofmann> we have no such bugs for 1.6 currently, but are considering
one such change.
<chofmann> we have quite a few bugs that lead to profile corruption when
the user runs out of disk space. we are considering a change to put up
a warning dialog to warn the user when they are low on disk space at
start up.
<Asa> we're discussing getting localizations into the cvs tree.
<Asa> not an immediate concern, more of a medium-term plan (starting
after 1.6)
<chofmann> we plan to file a bug for evaluation on the low disk space today.
<noririty> chofmann: When we should add "late-l10n"? any definite condition?
<Asa> noririty: it gets added if we land a change after beta which
impacts localizations
<chofmann> any change that has localization impact that is being considered
<chofmann> the combination of "fixed" and late-l10n would be the actual
string changes that mlp folks would need to account for.
<noririty> I think it's hard to understanding like firebird or thunderbird.
<prometeo> re all
<prometeo> <- italian mlp contributor
<noririty> because no beta release with those products.
<mal> JP i18n problem list on http://www.mozilla.gr.jp/wazilla/1_5-en.html
<davidfraser_> is discussion of how localizations fit in with the new
firebird/thunderbird structure with extensions on the agenda?
<Asa> not yet.
<Asa> we've just discussed an intention to get localizations into CVS.
<Asa> we're now taking up the question of the stand-alone applications.
<noririty> Should we make beta grade before release as well as stand
alone application? I think it needs to release localize version at the
same time.
<chofmann> some set of extensions will be in the mozilla cvs repository
and available for translation.
<chofmann> others will be hosted on mozdev... and will be "unofficial"
<chofmann> we hope there will be some work on the mozdev unofficial
localizations, but they should be considered lower priority.
<prometeo> What about lionization "bugs"? will bugzilla be used to track
them?
<Asa> bugs that break localizability for "official" extensions (like the
DOM inspector or JS Debugger) will live in Bugzilla.
<prometeo> i guess the same goes for the apps. sorry if this was already
asked/sorted.
<Asa> we're moving on to discuss which language packs will be ready at
the beginning of next week when the release is ready.
<Asa> and discussing bugs which break language packs for 1.6
<chofmann> doing the survey of which language packs might be available
for shipping on the Mozilla Foundation CD
<prometeo> i can assure that the italian pack is/will be ready (1.6
already out)
<prometeo> 1.6b
<chofmann> any one on the irc channel that thinks they might have
something ready to go next week?
<chofmann> prometeo: that will be great.
<prometeo> me!
<prometeo> the only missing piece is the help guide...
<prometeo> help
<prometeo> is the help guide considered a base requirement for the release?
<Asa> prometeo: I don't think we would require that.
<chofmann> I think we will be pretty flexible for these first releases
but will be trying to raise the level of quality in the future
<prometeo> it kept changing a lot lately
<prometeo> the largest pieces are almost up to date (browser, mail/news,
composer)
<prometeo> large holes in all of the rest
<prometeo> anyway, I've recruited already 2 or 3 more volunteers to
finish up the job
<prometeo> a small question: how can we translators be alerted for a
string change after the ui freeze?
<Asa> I do want to note that we want to freeze the help content with
beta along with the application.
<Asa> prometeo: you can look for bugs with the keyword late-l10n
<davidfraser_> if the localizations are in CVS, it will be easier to
check for changes that happen after the beta on the release branch
<Asa> if we decide to take a string change after the beta then it will
get that keyword.
<prometeo> both great news...
<noririty> Will the language packs be stored like this way? :
http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/l10n/nscp/
<Asa> noririty: we haven't worked out the specifics about how or in what
directory structure we'll store the language packs in CVS.
<Asa> these are implementation details that still need to be worked out
and we're not trying to completely solve this problem today
<noririty> I see.
<davidfraser_> I think it is important to include the mozilla l10n
newsgroup in discussions about the CVS structure
<Asa> it's a medium-term goal to start getting localizations into the tree.
<Asa> davidfraser_: definitely.
<chofmann> that might be a good layout. I think we will try to get
someone to write up a proposal for how the l10n CVS tree should be set up.
<Asa> we will also want to help people to learn CVS and make sure that
it doesn't block langpack developers from getting work done.
<prometeo> that's even better! :)
<Asa> and there are still issues of "what kind of reviews" to sort out.
That should be a discussion between drivers and the language pack
developers.
<davidfraser_> chofmann: We are currently looking at doing such a
structure for multiple projects and would love to participate in discussion
<Asa> initially, I think review for "code" things which could
potentially break the build for others but not mandate "language" reviews.
<chofmann> great. would you like to take the lead on writing up a CVS
l10n proposal?
<davidfraser_> Yes, I'll do that.
<prometeo> asa: will a r= from the qa contact be a good ratio?
<chofmann> we are looking for a volunteer..
<chofmann> great
<Asa> prometeo: possibly. I don't know yet. I think we still need to
discuss it.
<prometeo> ok
<Asa> the goal would be to get more people sharing the workload. There
are Mozilla localizations at IBM, for example, and it would probably
benefit everyone if that work was shared with people working in the MLP
who are working on the same languages.
<Asa> Is everyone here clear on the "late-l10n" keyword? It will be
added by drivers to *any* change that we approve after the Beta release
which would impact localizations
<prometeo> asa: clear
<Asa> Dri...@mozilla.org will try to avoid taking changes to
localizable strings after beta. The "freeze" will include the help
documentation and the various component applications (Dom Inspector, etc.)
<tsahi> it would also be a good idea to announce such changes in n.p.m.l10n
<Asa> We'd would also like to hear back from localizers who would like
to be included on the release. as we get close to the release it would
be good to get updates, especially if you don't think you'll be ready
(after having said you wanted to be on the CD)
<Asa> tsahi: OK. Going forward, I will crosspost there when I make these
announcements on n.p.m.seamonkey.
<prometeo> the italian team is proud of having the opportunity to be on
the cd and it's not going to miss that! :)
<Asa> prometeo: excellent! we'll be proud to ship Italian on the CD.
<davidfraser_> Unfortunately a bad time of year for the South African
team ... up to date on 1.4, but will take us a while to reach 1.6 -
hopefully we can catch up in time for 1.7
<prometeo> davidfraser_: good luck! going 1.4->1.5 was painful... :(
<prometeo> while 1.5->1.6(b) was almost easy
<prometeo> will the cd include only the latest version (1.6) or even the
latest "stable"?
<Asa> davidfraser_: I suspect that many people won't be ready for 1.6,
especially with the holidays. It's probably a good time to "experiment"
with the few people that will be ready so that when we get to 1.7 we
will have been through the process once before and hopefully we can be
more complete.
<Asa> prometeo: latest version. Mozilla 1.6, Firebird 0.8 and
Thunderbird (what version are we up to with thunderbird?)
<Sinuhe> 0.5?
<prometeo> 0.4 is out now... dunno if 0.5 will make it
<Asa> OK. probably 0.4 then.
<davidfraser_> Asa: great
<tsahi> will the *birds langpacks go to CVS too?
<davidfraser_> Will a log of the irc chat be posted somewhere?
<Asa> tsahi: we haven't decided what will or will not go into CVS.
<chofmann> davidfraser: yes.. asa or I will post.
<Asa> davidfraser_: I'll try to pull out the relevant comments from the
log and include them in the meeting notes.
<Sinuhe> Which localisations would go to CVS? All of them?
<Asa> tsahi: this discussion has just started and will probably continue
for months.
<Asa> Sinuhe: we don't know yet. I think that we'd like to take any
"well maintained" localizations.
<davidfraser_> Thanks everyone, goodbye
<Asa> but we haven't decided yet.
<Asa> goodbye davidfraser_
<Sinuhe> Goodbye David
<Sinuhe> Oh yes, I read in the log David's posted in the newsgroup that
you're wondering which language packs should be ready to be released
with the CD. I am reasonably certain Slovene (sl-SI) is going to be
ready; normally I make the language pack in about an hour after release
(or when I hear about a release, anyway).
<Asa> Sinuhe: that sounds great.
<prometeo> i guess that you're looking for fb and tb langpacks also to
be ready to ship, right?
<Asa> I don't know the answer to that.
<Asa> I think that we've been mostly thinking about SeaMonkey
<Asa> for 1.6 CD.
<prometeo> Asa: it wouldn't be a great problem for us to provide also
the others, but it's not our decision
<Sinuhe> I'm sorry if this has been answered already -- but whom do we
send finished language packs as they are done? It normally takes Andrea
several days to upload them to ftp.mozilla.org ...
<chofmann> prometeo: let us do some checking on translations for fb and
tb for the CD.
<prometeo> chofmann: ok, great. AFAIK FB/TB localization is more complex
(no ui)
<prometeo> so i guess some mindstorming is needed... :)
<chofmann> Sinuhe: sounds like we should increase the number of people
that can upload.
<prometeo> Sinuhe: you are cruelly right! :(
<tsahi> what about content packs? my pack includes a content pack with
an israeli search engine. would you want things like that in CVS or on
the CD?
<chofmann> and maybe create a mail alias with all these people so the
requests get handled faster
<prometeo> Andrea will probably show up in the next meeting (1 a.m. here)
<Sinuhe> There is a mail alias, mlp-staff, but I have not heard from
anyone but Andrea who receives emails sent there.
<prometeo> if you need more people, i can help out, even if u/l takes
longer for me due to adsl...
<chofmann> ok..
<Sinuhe> I don't really know though if it is peculiarly sensible to have
all language packs on ftp.mozilla.org for end-users, considering that
mostly, they would get a localised build because they do not speak
English. For Slovene, I know that the amount of people who downloaded
packs or builds from ftp.mozilla.org was but a small fraction of those
who downloaded from our website ...
<mal> Is 1.6 string resource frozen on 1.6b ?
Afternoon (US time) meeting on IRC.
<algarcia_es-ES> Hello everybody
<Asa> hey hey
<Topal_away> Hello
<Asa> anyone else calling in?
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> No, too expensive !
<papineau> Calling right now, was the first one 2 minutes ago and was
puzzled by that :)
<oskielo-es-ES> IRC is cheaper :-)
<algarcia_es-ES> Hola oskielo-es-ES
<Asa> yes, I'll try to talk here as well as on the phone
<algarcia_es-ES> :-)
<oskielo-es-ES> In english, please :-)
<algarcia_es-ES> Hola, hello galio_es-AR
<oskielo-es-ES> The beast is getting food :-)
<galio_es-AR> Hola, hello, algarcia_es-ES
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> is there 2 different spanish translations (ES and
AR) ?
<galio_es-AR> yup
<oskielo-es-ES> There are more.
<galio_es-AR> I'm not the translation team leader, just representing him
<algarcia_es-ES> Also es-HN
<galio_es-AR> (Honduras)
<algarcia_es-ES> And es-CO
<algarcia_es-ES> But es-CO is "missing"
<Asa> OK, I'll wait about one more minute to see if anyone else joins us
on the telephone.
<galio_es-AR> cause spanish changes a lot; there are a lot of localisms
indifferent places
<oskielo-es-ES> There's also a starting point for es-MX
<Topal_de-DE> is this meeting also about firebird?
<galio_es-AR> I have a doubt that perhaps was discussed before... the
installer in the CD will prompt which locale to install?
<galio_es-AR> or just install all the packs?
<Asa> Topal_de-DE: this meeting is primarily focused on SeaMonkey
<Asa> The goal of this meeting is to cover (mostly) these topics:
<Asa> 1. to raise the issue of bugs which block localizations or make
localizing more difficult.
<Asa> 2. to talk about what drivers are trying to do to make localizing
easier for you all
<Asa> 3. discuss trying to get localizations included with the Mozilla CDs
<Topal_de-DE> OK, but will there be a firebird specific meeting anytime
soon?
<Asa> there were two basic categories of localizability problems. bugs
that are fundamental application bugs like not being able to reverse
images in themes for RTL...
<Asa> and simpler bugs like "this particular string isn't localizable."
<Asa> are there any of the first category that you all would like to
bring up for dri...@mozilla.org to consider?
<momoi_ja_JP> regarding issue #1, would that include bugs that need to
get fixed for local market requirements? or just purely bugs that blocks
L10n.
<Asa> I think it's actually both.
<Asa> and bugs in either of those categories should be nominated to drivers.
<momoi_ja_JP> good.
<oskielo-es-ES> I'm not sure if this is in #1. What kind of
stuff/changes isn't politely allowed in langpacks?
<Asa> heh. that's difficult to answer.
<Asa> and dri...@mozilla.org along with st...@mozilla.org will be
talking about this in the coming weeks
<oskielo-es-ES> In es-ES, we change some URL to spanish contents.
<galio_es-AR> what about default bookmarks and search engines?
<Asa> right now, people are putting all kinds of things into language
packs (themes, userContent.css files, etc.)
<momoi_ja_JP> that's a standard part of L10n.
<Asa> search engines, etc.
<oskielo-es-ES> I remember somewhere saying that making some kind of
changes apart from the original couldn't be called "Mozilla".
<momoi_ja_JP> also modification of userContent.css to set proper font
size for asian languages.
<Asa> we're going to work to come up with a clear description of what
would be allowed in "official" language packs as distributed on CD.
<oskielo-es-ES> There are also thinks like changing default search
engine or some prefs.
<Topal_de-DE> we have our own startpage and searchengine changed to our
language. Such things are needed
<oskielo-es-ES> s/thinks/things/
<Asa> we haven't settled on the answer to this question but we're
discussing it and we'd appreciate input at the npm.l10n newsgroup
<Asa> as to what the most "common" kinds of things belong in a language pack
<Asa> for 1.6, and language packs we might take for 1.6 we're probably
going to be very generous.
<oskielo-es-ES> I think it's one of the targets of the regional packs,
that is, provide regional specific contents.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Almost everything in the default directory could
be localized or changed.
<Asa> we're concerned about various things like trademark issues, how
much QA/testing would be required if the changes were large, etc.
<Asa> so this is something we need to come up with a good plan and we'll
need you all to offer input. I'd like us to start by getting together
the "minimum requirements" boundary.
<algarcia_es-ES> Hola, hello Rickie-es-ES
<Rickie-es-ES> Hi everyone.
<Asa> for example, we wouldn't want to ship a language pack on our CD
which only localized 50% of the browser.
<momoi_ja_JP> there's definitely need to discuss and define most of
these things. As to level of QA, instructions should say what sort of
things to look out for once people make these modifications, e.g.
trademark issues.
<galio_es-AR> and what about non-core components like chatzilla? will
they ship with localized versions?
<Asa> right. this is something we need to work out.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> for instance, a lang pack must provide a 100%
translation of the user interface and almost browser and mail
translation of the online help. QA is also very important for lambda users.
<oskielo-es-ES> BTW, we have chatzilla translated from some time ago.
RGinda knows :-)
<Asa> I think that we would like to ship "reasonably complete"
localizations (browser, mail, composer and their sub-windows)
<Asa> but we wouldn't for example require all of the help content be
localized (though that would be wonderful)
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: like the french version ;-)
<Asa> :D
<oskielo-es-ES> Asa: that's something we have worked out :-)
<Asa> excellent.
<Topal_de-DE> yes, it's important to talk about the extent of the
translation. E.g what about errors in JS-Console? We don't localise them.
<Asa> Topal_de-DE: right.
<Asa> for now, let's assume that the "minimum requirements" are
"reasonably complete translation of Browser, Mail, and Composer".
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: how many translation projects don't have
those 3 components already translated ?
<thirdhand-nb-NO> and what about XML errors? they are AFAIK localizable,
but we haven't done it (I think)
<Asa> FrenchMozilla-fr-FR: I'm not sure how many have 3 components
localized.
<Asa> I think that for any "official" language packs, we'd want those
three apps to be reasonably localized.
<Asa> for this first attempt at getting langpacks on the 1.6 CD, I don't
think we're going to be terribly strict.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> OK, this seems to be a reasonable goal.
<Asa> some things that drivers have done to try to make localizing easier:
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: main languages should have a complete
translation. It's better for the business point of view of Mozilla.
Should be fine to reach this goal for the 1.8
<Asa> the first thing we've done is to set a UI freeze with the Beta.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> good evening/afternoon everyone
<Asa> so after beta (which went out last week) we won't be taking any
more changes to localizable string.
<algarcia_es-ES> Hello pbartecki_pl-PL
<pbartecki_pl-PL> does anyone have any kind of log of what has happened
before
<oskielo-es-ES> I think there should be a way for us localizers to know
when there's no intention to change localizable strings.
<Asa> that would give localizers more time to localize after the beta
and before the release when nothing is changing.
<Asa> that would also include UI changes that impact strings (like sizes
of buttons or windows)
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: VERY good idea !
<Asa> now, we may have to take a change that impacts localization.
<Rickie-es-ES> Asa, that would/will be excellent, indeed!
<oskielo-es-ES> Asa: you mean that the _actual_ ui sting isn't supposed
to change for the final release?
<Asa> we hope not to and we will try hard not to but some cases won't be
avoidable
<Topal_de-DE> right, Normally we donut start to translate as long as we
don't know whether it will be still in if it ships
<Asa> in cases where we do take a l10n impact after beta, we'll be
flagging those bugs with a keyword "late-l10n"
<Vincent-fr-FR> Topal_de-DE: Same thing here
<Asa> and we'll announce to the newsgroups
<oskielo-es-ES> s/sting/strings/
<pbartecki_pl-PL> is there any agreement of what is the preferred way of
submitting translations: langpacks or fully localized builds?
<Asa> pbartecki_pl-PL: for the CDs we're talking about language packs.
<Asa> we'll probably include an html page in the cd with xpinstall links
and descriptions of the packs.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> langpacks would be more easier as soon as it would
be possible to have a kind of automatic generator of localized
installers (says a installer generator farms).
<pbartecki_pl-PL> do you want to have this page translated also?
<Asa> pbartecki_pl-PL: I think that it would be a simple list with
translation name and translation "owner"
<Asa> I'm not sure if we'll have the time or resources to translate the
page. I was thinking one page with a list of all available translations
<Asa> does someone have a better idea for how users install the language
packs from the CD?
<pbartecki_pl-PL> asa: ok.. I've sent an email to Chriss and Bart
expressing we would be ready with Polish translation for 1.6 too
<galio_es-AR> what about a stub installer where you chose first the
installer's language?
<Topal_de-DE> What about an Installer, that asks you what language you
want to install?
<oskielo-es-ES> I find good something like the initial page when
installing debian, offering in a simple way several languages with their
own translations
<pbartecki_pl-PL> would you have any kind of start page?
<galio_es-AR> oskielo-es-ES: perhaps it would be more user-friendly with
a dialog box asking for the language before the installation. think on
users that don't know english, and that most windows users don't examine
much their possibilities
<Asa> galio_es-AR, Topal_de-DE: those are good ideas. We'd like to do
something like that in the future
<galio_es-AR> user-friendly; before, sorry
<Asa> we don't have the resources to do that for 1.6.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> a simple web page to launch the installer from IE
for windows users with a line for each language. Doesn't need to
translate the page as soon as the name of the language is written in the
language itself (francais, not french). Same thing for mac users. Linux
users already have Mozilla installed (link to RPM ?)
<Topal_de-DE> Do you know, how it was managed by Netscape 7?
<Asa> then the last issue we wanted to discuss was getting localizations
into CVS.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: good idea, but translators must have a write
access to the CVS.
<Asa> FrenchMozilla-fr-FR: right and we'll be working out plans for how
to do this over the coming months.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> Asa, do you want every translation or just some of them?
<Asa> we wanted to hear feedback
<oskielo-es-ES> Maybe you could release a page in english, and let
people do their localizations in a way doesn't mean any work from you.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> as far as CVS is concerned
<oskielo-es-ES> A page or just a single line saying "language" properly
translated, or a image with a flag.
<Rickie-es-ES> What kind of feedback do you expect for the CVS thing? I
mean, people may already have a "home-made" solution and switching
shouldn't be too difficult, or else they have nothing and you offer them
paradise. :-)
<Asa> the feedback we'd be interested in is if people feel like they
couldn't work in CVS or wouldn't want to. Or people that would
appreciate using CVS.
<Asa> we'd also need to solve problems like broken builds.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> we currently keep our translation in cvs, but it is in
one flat file. And in current state it would be preferred way of storing
data by us
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> For the CVS problem : write access to, say, a list
of contributors for each translating team with the possibility for each
translator chief to modify this list. At FRMoz project, we have a small
staff of cvs allowed people that have the right to write the cvs (on
SF.net).
<pbartecki_pl-PL> but as I have read David has to come up with something
how could it be done.. right?
<Topal_de-DE> I think most people use MozillaTranslator at the moment,
but sometimes it's really a pain in the ass.
<oskielo-es-ES> Our packs are uploaded via cvs to the "bandwidth site"
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Topal_de-DE: right, this is why we don't use it ;-)
<Rickie-es-ES> I really like MT, though I admit it needs some
improvements... :-) I know MT is off-topic, but it would be fine if we
could give it a couple of minutes.
<Topal_de-DE> CVS would be really a nice thing to have for translations
<momoi_ja_JP> there's likelihood that some language packs may not work
unless they ship with complete files. The fact that someone's lang pack
works in his.her environment does ton guarantee that it will work with
the core sore for Mozilla.org. You need to have a backup plan for this
contingency.
<algarcia_es-ES> Hola alejandrosg_es-MX
<Asa> I don't' know a lot about the process people use to make an actual
language pack.
<Asa> and surely, moving to CVS would be a big step for some people.
<alejandrosg_es-MX> Hola algarcia_es-ES :-)
<oskielo-es-ES> ¿You mean upload _individual_ files so the pack is
built remotely?
<Asa> and it may not be possible or desirable to have everyone using the
exact same process and tools.
<Asa> this is a discussion that we need to continue. it is more of a
medium or long term issue.
<Rickie-es-ES> Yep, however, everything has pros and cons. CVS is fine
for granularity (several people sharing the workload), but tools like MT
(or any other, but which?) can add value.
<Asa> so the short term goal is to get some language packs (reasonably
complete ones) onto the 1.6 CD.
<Asa> the medium term goals are to define what is and isn't allowed in
language packs that mozilla.org distributes
<momoi_ja_JP> but at minimum you need to guarantee that lang packs
included in the CD actually work!
<momoi_ja_JP> And only Mozilla.org can assure that.
<Vincent-fr-FR> momoi_ja_JP: agreed.
<Asa> and the medium to long term goals are to improve the process for
building and maintaining the language resources (including possibly
moving some or all of them to CVS)
<Asa> momoi_ja_JP: yes.
<Vincent-fr-FR> Or individual teams, if the CD is pressed after the
build is available for download.
<Rickie-es-ES> Asa, and regarding the short term goal, have you got a
nice snapshot of what will possibly be good enough and in time for
shipping it in the CD? :-)
<Asa> we need to build a QA/testing process for language packs that at a
minimum test to see that they work (but not necessarily that the
translation is perfect)
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: but moving to the CVS does not have to be
obligatory for teams which have already an efficient process....
<Asa> FrenchMozilla-fr-FR: right.
<momoi_ja_JP> Mozilla.org needs to publish L10n Ship Test guidelines for
official releases.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Asa: QA is efficient when you have a large team.
Our process at frmoz is to deliver a translation only when it has been
tested on all supported platform and when a minimal number of
translators are agree on the quality of the translation. For small team,
it will be more difficult.
<Asa> ideally we'd find out who in the localization projects have the
various platforms (mac,windows,linux) and we set up a system where we
could get each pack smoketested on each OS
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> We could try to have a crossed QA process for
small team. My team is large (more than 30 people) and we don't have
work for everyone. We could discuss on sharing our resources.
<Asa> that would be wonderful.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> I will speak with my team to see if it's possible.
We already help a little the Tamil translation team.
<FrenchMozilla-fr-FR> Does the other team have sufficient human
resources to do so ?
<Asa> we will need to establish a minimum testing requirement
<Asa> that would include the official smoketests, making sure that all
of the major UI elements are functional, making sure the language pack
actually installs on the release build, testing on mac, windows and linux.
<Asa> then we need to figure out how to get coverage for these kinds of
tests on each platform.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> we do not too much resources internally as there are
only 2 people working on Polish translation, but we have switched to
preparing pre releases before making final release available. So right
now every release is being downloaded and tested by at least few
hundreds people which helps a lot to get iron out eventual problems
<pbartecki_pl-PL> this slows every release though.. but at the end I
think it's worth it..
<Asa> pbartecki_pl-PL: that's a great way to get testing coverage
<momoi_ja_JP> let me elaborate on what I said before about lang packs
and the core binary. Normal product shipping at any commercial companies
require that localized files must be tested and certified against a
specific core binary. If you use a different binary, then all testing
must be repeated! This is an L10n must. This is why I have been saying
that accepting lang packs alone will be difficult.
<Asa> one way to alleviate that concern, momoi_ja_JP, is if we make an
official build available to l10n developers a few days before shipping
so they
the langpacks against it.
<Asa> I think that'd the plan for 1.6 at least. we won't have CDs until
early january
<Asa> but we expect to release 1.6 final in december
<momoi_ja_JP> And get a guarantee that they made no modifications
whatsoever to the core binary and associated files!
<thirdhand-nb-NO> Asa: when do you need the langpack to be ready for 1.6
then?
<Topal_de-DE> before we finish: what about following meetings? Any dates
or cycles discussed yet? Any plans for Firebird/Thunderbird specific
meetings?
<Rickie-es-ES> As long as future meetings are announced in n.p.m.l10n, I
think it will be fine.
<Asa> thirdhand-nb-NO: see http://mozilla.org/roadmap/release-status.html
<Asa> we'd like to have the language packs within a few days of the
release. I think there will be about a week of time before we start work
on making the CD.
<Asa> so I'm going to summarize this meeting and the meeting we had this
morning and post to the newsgroup for further discussion.
<Asa> and we can work on scheduling our next irc and phone meeting
sometime early in the 1.7 cycle.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> Asa, how do you want langpack for cd submitted?
Regular way by sending them to mlp-staff
<pbartecki_pl-PL> or some other alias would be set up for this?
<Asa> pbartecki_pl-PL: if you thin you will have a language pack
completed for 1.6, reply to the post that I make at npm.l10n with these
meeting notes.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> how about content inside, can we pack our regular
(modified) bookmarks files
<Asa> then as we get closer to the release we'll figure out who to send
the packs too
<Asa> (it might be le...@mozilla.org, I'm not sure)
<pbartecki_pl-PL> Asa, I've actually mailed Chriss on this, as we are
able to release langpack for cd on time
<Asa> pbartecki_pl-PL: about content inside, we're going to have to come
up with a list of what is allowed and what's not allowed but that will
have to wait until 1.7 probably.
<Asa> we need people to tell us what they would like to include or need
to include
<Asa> and that discussion can happen in the newsgroups
<Asa> for 1.6, just include what you would normally put up at the MLP
page, I think.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> Asa, right.. most definitely we should know that.. so
for 1.6 it has not be determined?
<Asa> but it would be good when you reply saying that you would like to
be on the CD that you tell us the kinds of changes your language pack
will have.
<Asa> it has not been determined for 1.6. We're just starting the
discussion here.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> Most important things are: start up page, bookmarks,
throbber links
<oskielo-es-ES> AFAIK, _just_ the langpack can't have more than the
original pack.
<Asa> we need to establish a list of what's acceptable.
<oskielo-es-ES> Bookmarks aren't in langpack, I think.
<Asa> and the way to do that is to hear from the localizers what you
need and then we decide what we can include
<Rickie-es-ES> Sorry, but I must leave. My colleagues will tell me. :-)
Good bye.
<Asa> I have to leave for other work but we should continue this
discussion in the newsgroup.
<Asa> bye Rickie-es-ES
<algarcia_es-ES> Hasta luego Rickie-es-ES
<Asa> I will post some notes to the newsgroup this evening (from IRC and
the telephone conference)
<pbartecki_pl-PL> one more thing.. any thoughts on the langpack itself:
do you want it as lang and regional pack or one packet containing everything
<Asa> and we can move the discussion there.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> ok
<Topal_de-DE> I will went to sleep also (it's 2 am here) thanks for the
discussion
<pbartecki_pl-PL> another thing to cover would be component names:
whether they can or cannot be changed
<pbartecki_pl-PL> say we are not using Mail&News or Composer names
<oskielo-es-ES> That's an actual issue in es-ES, too.
<pbartecki_pl-PL> oskielo-es-ES, bookmarks are in regional pack so
they're somehow in the langpack..
<algarcia_es-ES> "Mail & News" --> "Correo y noticias"
<pbartecki_pl-PL> whatever structure it should have
<oskielo-es-ES> I find bookmarks in the deflenus.xpi, not regus.xpi.
<Vincent-fr-FR> Many teams provide both (either in one langabcd.xpi
file, or in langabcd and regcd)
<oskielo-es-ES> But surely they somehow hack the files to include them,
because they're not originally there.
<Vincent-fr-FR> Any .xpi can install anything, it depends on what's
inside. You could ship a complete new xpcom application along with a
localization
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
below some small comment to the main discussion points:
> *Raise the issue of bugs which block or make difficult the localizing of
> Mozilla SeaMonkey*
see also
http://resources.kairo.at/mozilla/l10n/l10ntalk_fosdem2003/l10ntalk_10.html
for a list of problems in L10n area that I wrote up last February for my
L10n talk at FOSDEM's Mozilla track. A few have been resolved since
then, but a bunch of them are still there.
> *Requested information from anyone that thinks they will have language
> packs completed in time for 1.6*
My Language pack (German) should be ready anytime. Basically, I have a
pack for the last-day-before-branch builds ready now, so the final one
should be available quite fast (if I'm not away from my computer when
the release happens).
> *Began a discussion on getting language resources into the Mozilla CVS
> repository*
Would be nice, I've had tried to get this for German some time now. See
own thread for the bug no.
> *Lots of discussion about what belongs in a language pack*
I'm currently including translations for Seamonkey and Calendar, search
plugins for google.[de|at|ch], MySpell dictionaries for de-[DE|AT|CH]
and defaults/messenger/ as well as defaults/profile settings so that a
default profile has translated Sidebar/MailViews etc. as well as URLs
pointing to mozilla.org (start page etc.) changed to point to Mozilla
German (<mozilla.kairo.at>) Website where useful, so that users get a
localized "support & help" page and localized release notes etc.
> *Began a discussion about QA and testing*
MozillaTranslator should care that all strings are available in
translated builds, but that's often not enough...
> Can we improve Mozilla so that it doesn't break
> if the localization isn't complete (fall back to english or other
> language?)
This would be very, very helpful if possible, and would help many users
who have strange problems after updating a language pack.
I hope to be able to join personally when the next IRC meetings will happen.
Additionally, I'd be happy to give another L10n talk this year at FOSDEM
Mozilla track and provide some good news about the efforts made here!
Greetings from Vienna and a happy new year,
Robert Kaiser
Piotr Bartecki
> *Requested information from anyone that thinks they will have language
> packs completed in time for 1.6*
Just in case it could be otherwise missed: Polish language packs for 1.6
Final would also be available. We have all strings from /latest.*/
currently translated so releasing a xpi would be a matter of getting it
packed and tested.
Greets from Poland
Pete,
MozillaPL Team.
Ricardo Palomares Martinez
>
>> *Requested information from anyone that thinks they will have language
>> packs completed in time for 1.6*
>
> Just in case it could be otherwise missed: Polish language packs for 1.6
> Final would also be available. We have all strings from /latest.*/
> currently translated so releasing a xpi would be a matter of getting it
> packed and tested.
The translation for es-ES (spanish-Spain) is currently at 1.6b, except
for mail_help.xhtml file, which is under reviewing. If there are not
too many changes between 1.6b and 1.6final, we will hopefully get the
XPIs in about 24 hours since en-US 1.6final get released.
Regards.
--
Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy.
KaiRo - Robert Kaiser
> pack for the last-day-before-branch builds ready now, so the final one
> should be available quite fast (if I'm not away from my computer when
> the release happens).
FYI: I've got a pack ready for latest 1.6 nightlies, so I'm ready for a
release anytime now ;-)
Robert Kaiser