FUNET VIC20 archive
Todd Aiken
with the following message:
"Here used to be a "digital museum" of Commodore VIC-20 cartridges, which
was originally downloaded from ftp.hrz.uni-kassel.de and extended further.
The archive has now been removed, due to a request from the Interactive
Digital Software Association http://www.idsa.com/."
Anybody know if this archive is still available somewhere else online?
Thanks.
mykrowyre
> was originally downloaded from ftp.hrz.uni-kassel.de and extended further.
> The archive has now been removed, due to a request from the Interactive
> Digital Software Association http://www.idsa.com/."
Well, how wonderful. Someone thinks they are going to get rich by busting
"software pirates" of 1980's software which is no longer available for sale
for a computer that is an antique. How nice. I'll dig up these roms and
host them myself. Sheesh.
-tom
Jeff Ledger
> "software pirates" of 1980's software which is no longer available for sale
> for a computer that is an antique. How nice. I'll dig up these roms and
> host them myself. Sheesh.
>
> -tom
Hey they have a nice little URL here... Why don't a few people drop in
and tell them what a great job they are doing busting those nasty software
pirates!
http://www.idsa.com/participate.html
Jeff
Marc Walters
[snip]
> > The archive has now been removed, due to a request from the Interactive
> > Digital Software Association http://www.idsa.com/."
> for a computer that is an antique. How nice. I'll dig up these roms and
> host them myself. Sheesh.
IDSA can often go too far. I suspect it is more a matter of their
accounting practices.
I'm just speculating here, perhaps they are adding all "take-down"
actions and successes to a tally sheet for their annual report to its
members. The member companies like Electronic Arts see:
"1,000 wares sites taken down".
I'd imagine they omit the numbers of commercially dead (ie no lost
sales) formats since accurate collating and calculation would be very
difficult and expensive.
Interestingly enough, there are old 8-bit games I for one would have
thought dead as a doornail that have been ressurected, and almost
certainly their sales have been hurt by pirates and 8-bit preservation
sites.
For example, Jeff Minter's games. There are unofficial tributes to his
games for the PC that may have hurt his potential to sell his own
versions.
Likewise for Boulderdash. First Star have released an updated version
for PC, but with so many C64 emulators about, why bother?
The recent spate of ports to handheld devices of old Sinclair Spectrum
games is another indication that software houses are dusting off their
back catalogues to see if there is anything of value.
Regardless of the above thoughts, I still believe that online 8-bit
software archives for old, commercially dead titles pose no
significant financial threat to the modern PC companies.
Marc Walters
Marko Mäkelä
Marko> "Here used to be a "digital museum" of Commodore VIC-20 cartridges,
Marko> which was originally downloaded from ftp.hrz.uni-kassel.de and
Marko> extended further. The archive has now been removed, due to a
Marko> request from the Interactive Digital Software Association
Marko> http://www.idsa.com/."
Tom> Well, how wonderful. Someone thinks they are going to get rich
Tom> by busting "software pirates" of 1980's software which is no
Tom> longer available for sale for a computer that is an antique.
The request from "Robert L. Hunter, IV" (dm...@idsa.com), dated 17th
March 2003, looked like a form letter. So far, FUNET has not received
any response to our replies sent on the 18th and 19th of March.
My decision to take the games with unclear copyright status offline
was a hard one, for two reasons. First, it was the result of five to
eight years of collecting, and second, I believe that the motivation
of everyone who helped to complete the collection was to permanently
preserve the history of the VIC-20.
With the present copyright law, the software would enter public domain
in about 100 to 130 years, depending on how long the original
programmers live. I hope that some of the private copies of the
archive will survive, so that this piece of history will not be lost
forever.
Marko
MagerValp
MM> With the present copyright law, the software would enter public
MM> domain in about 100 to 130 years, depending on how long the
MM> original programmers live. I hope that some of the private copies
MM> of the archive will survive, so that this piece of history will
MM> not be lost forever.
I'm sure there are a few of us who wouldn't mind hosting the archive.
IDSA can't hunt us all down...
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + Mage...@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
Anders Carlsson
> I'm sure there are a few of us who wouldn't mind hosting the archive.
> IDSA can't hunt us all down...
If I weren't so lazy and could get my fat ass moving, I would also start
looking around for potential copyright holders and possibly make a list
of permits. Some (Sega, Electronic Arts, Nintendo, Activision etc) will
probably deny, but most smaller or independent ones could be gained. In
a few cases the programmer may allow but the company owning the rights.
Who owns the intellectual properties to all of Commodore's own software?
Does Tulip have that, or would it likely be lost/forgotten somewhere
among the breakdown of Commodore in 1994?
--
Anders Carlsson
Marko Mäkelä
Anders> In a few cases the programmer may allow but the company owning
Anders> the rights.
I contacted Tom Griner, and he said it's okay to distribute those few
games that are copyrighted by him. Most of his titles were published
by Creative Software (now owned by Activision, which is represented by
the IDSA) and Human Engineered Software (HES, out of business).
Anders> Who owns the intellectual properties to all of Commodore's own
Anders> software? Does Tulip have that, or would it likely be
Anders> lost/forgotten somewhere among the breakdown of Commodore in
Anders> 1994?
I don't know, but I removed the Commodore games too, just to be on the
safe side. The web site of Gateway doesn't contain any references to
Commodore or CBM (I even tried the search function). I don't know if
it's wise to draw their attention by asking, because they could go
after other Commodore software and the schematic diagrams.
Marko
Anders Carlsson
> Creative Software (now owned by Activision, which is represented by
> the IDSA) and Human Engineered Software (HES, out of business).
It might be possible that even an IDSA member can allow redistribution
if it is limited to one site -- maybe their own site? Or are all IDSA
members bound to a common agreement about software redistribution?
[Commodore/Gateway/Tulip]
> I don't know if it's wise to draw their attention by asking, because
> they could go after other Commodore software and the schematic diagrams.
Hm, right. If the software archive is hosted somewhere else than the
diagrams, it might be more difficult to find the links.
--
Anders Carlsson
Cameron Kaiser
>Who owns the intellectual properties to all of Commodore's own software?
>Does Tulip have that, or would it likely be lost/forgotten somewhere
>among the breakdown of Commodore in 1994?
That's a good question. I couldn't be sure that Gateway got the game
and software copyrights when they got the technology patents. It might be
worth investigating.
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **
Anders Carlsson
>> Who owns the intellectual properties to all of Commodore's own software?
> That's a good question. [...] It might be worth investigating.
Yeah, but where does one begin? I mean, Googling won't help you much. :)
--
Anders Carlsson
Riccardo Rubini
>> I don't know if it's wise to draw their attention by asking, because
>> they could go after other Commodore software and the schematic
>> diagrams.
>
> Hm, right. If the software archive is hosted somewhere else than the
> diagrams, it might be more difficult to find the links.
I am just wondering...Why only the VIC-20 cartridge dumps ? Other things on
funet are also copyrighted...This makes really no sense at all. I guess they
just found the directory named "roms" and immediately decided it were
"RomZ" - illegal stuff. Can you imagine people ad IDSA reading the VIC 20
cartridge reviews ? I can't.
This whole IDSA thing is sad and sick at the same time.
Riccardo
mykrowyre
images be removed from ftp.funet.fi. I was wondering if you could explain
to me in detail the reason for this request. The software you requested to
be removed is no longer available for sale, nor is the computer for which it
was designed to operate with available for sale, as it is over 20 years old.
Many of these programs are nearly impossible to find, as most have now been
lost to the trash bin along with the original computer. The purpose of the
archive was to preserve and make available the work of past game programmers
and prevent them from being lost forever.
I'm sure that you are aware that not one of your members still supports the
Commodore Vic-20, nor do they sell or support the products that were once
developed for the Commodore Vic-20. Because of this, I find it difficult to
believe that your members would be concerned with the loss of business
(none) effected by the availability of these images. While I am a software
developer and a game programmer myself, I understand the need for
anti-piracy actions. In this case however, I believe that the removal of
these images harms the vintage computer collector while not benefiting
software companies in any way.
I would like to ask that you reconsider your decision to label vintage
software collectors as software pirates.
Sincerely,
Tom Stock
Axell
contracts of the 1980's? Could they in a form similar to publisher
contracts where the author retains the copyright and licenses the
'publisher' exclusive rights to distribute for 5 or so years. In that case,
contacting Sierra, Atari, and other large vendors of the time to authorize
distribution may be meaningless as they don't actually own the copyright.
.
Anders Carlsson
> I am just wondering...Why only the VIC-20 cartridge dumps ?
Not only the dumps, the tape/disk software as well was "put away" for
safety measures. Actually I believe the other Commodore software on Funet
(but not the hardware schematics and docs!) is more or less freeware,
as Arnold et. al always took care of the C64 software "redistribution".
--
Anders Carlsson
Marko Mäkelä
Tom> Hi I recently noticed that you requested that the Commodore
Tom> Vic-20 cartridge images be removed from ftp.funet.fi. [...]
Hey, the decision makers are probably not subscribing to this newsgroup.
I think that it would be more fruitful to address this kind of
well-written letters in paper mail to the current copyright holders of
the games. Yes, paper mail, since the generic in...@company.com
addresses or web feedback forms are likely to be read by some helpdesk
clerks who might not forward the messages to a more appropriate
recipients.
Here are some interesting links:
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/permits/
http://www.ysrnry.co.uk/links.htm
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/dh69/clear/
Marko
mykrowyre
> Hey, the decision makers are probably not subscribing to this newsgroup.
I sent it to id...@idsa.com
-tom
Christian Johansson
"roms" directory to something less suspicious like "cartridge_images" ;-).
/Christian
"Riccardo Rubini" <riccardo....@yyytin.it> skrev i meddelandet
news:Thera.16512$3M4.4...@news1.tin.it...
Riccardo Rubini
"Anders Carlsson" <anders....@mds.mdh.se> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:k2gk7de...@legolas.mdh.se...
> "Riccardo Rubini" <riccardo....@yyytin.it> writes:
>
> > I am just wondering...Why only the VIC-20 cartridge dumps ?
>
> Not only the dumps, the tape/disk software as well was "put away" for
> safety measures.
Is Marko who decided by himself to remove those also, or was it the IDSA
note he received requiring other software removal as well ?
> Actually I believe the other Commodore software on Funet
> (but not the hardware schematics and docs!) is more or less freeware,
> as Arnold et. al always took care of the C64 software "redistribution".
Well, it might as well be no Arnold nor other "redistribution" place at all
in a near future. Something harmless as Funet was targeted by IDSA's
crusuades, go figure what they'd ask for Arnold - shutting it down comes to
my mind.
Still, to me it was either a wrong decision to use the name "roms" for the
carts museum directory or someone who for an unexplicable reason decided to
report the alleged piracy to IDSA. I can't believe people ad IDSA really
investigated about VIC-20's software copyrights and distribution matters.
Riccardo
Riccardo Rubini
"Christian Johansson" <c...@felia.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:yDzra.6122$dP1....@newsc.telia.net...
> If this is true, maybe the problem could be solved just be renaming the
> "roms" directory to something less suspicious like "cartridge_images" ;-).
I bet I am right! Free italian coffee for those who prove me wrong :-)
Riccardo
Anders Carlsson
> I can't believe people ad IDSA really investigated about VIC-20's
> software copyrights and distribution matters.
IDSA works on behalf of its members and their general viewpoint about
piracy, emulation and some other matters. As you may or may not know,
the Speccy scene (read: World of Spectrum) has for years actively
searched for redistribution permits, and has received quite a lot
from minor publishers.
Some while ago, IDSA representatives found WoS and gave a list of a
handful titles which they considered as pirated software, including one
or two titles where WoS had a written permit for redistribution from
one of two copyright holding parties. This story was on Slashdot, and
as far as I know, noone from IDSA ever responded to the message Martijn
of WoS wrote to them. No files were removed from their archive either.
Of course, some software houses politely deny redistribution for various
reasons varying from "redistribution = emulation = piracy which we hate"
to "if we freely redistribute 10+ year old software, we will lose some
credibility on our hunt for fresh pirate copies".
The Devil's advocate would also claim that IDSA's attempts to shut down
redistribution is because the software houses of today don't want the
competition of yesteryear's games -- the less you can choose from, the
more likely it is you will pay $$$ for what is currently available. This
could also take the shape of tracking down newly produced freeware games
infringing on patented game ideas, graphics etc but it might be a harder
thing to do than looking up pure software piracy.
--
Anders Carlsson
Anders Carlsson
> I bet I am right! Free italian coffee for those who prove me wrong :-)
Someone already pointed out that in an Ultima-related rpg newsgroup, it
was a direct link to the VIC-20 game "Ultima: Escape from Mt. Drash" only
two days before the IDSA warning. Whether there is a connection between
these two actions, I don't know but the Ultima game was *not* a ROM image.
--
Anders Carlsson
Marko Mäkelä
Riccardo> Is Marko who decided by himself to remove those also
Yes. The form letter from IDSA only listed two or three Atari games,
but it is better to be safe than sorry.
Marko
Riccardo Rubini
I agree with you Marko, probably I would have done the same. Though,
requiring you to remove just three games in the directory means they
actually sorted the contents and recognized only those games as a copyright
infringment.
I don't know, I think you should try to gain some more informations from the
IDSA representative who contacted you. I read you sent him an e-mail, did it
bounce ?
Riccardo
Marko Mäkelä
Riccardo> Though, requiring you to remove just three games in
Riccardo> the directory means they actually sorted the contents and
Riccardo> recognized only those games as a copyright infringment.
There were way more Atari or IDSA-represented games than those listed
in the letter. I think that their keyword scanner has a limited
vocabulary.
Riccardo> I don't know, I think you should try to gain some more
Riccardo> informations from the IDSA representative who contacted
Riccardo> you. I read you sent him an e-mail, did it bounce ?
Like I wrote, it looked like an automated form letter sent with a fake
name, and we haven't received any further response.
Marko
Steve 'Flash' Juon
> Hey they have a nice little URL here... Why don't a few people drop in
> and tell them what a great job they are doing busting those nasty software
> pirates!
>
> http://www.idsa.com/participate.html
>
> Jeff
I suspect if they get more messages like the one I just sent, that web page
won't be up for very long. ^_^
- Steve (MMF)
MayhemUK
having C64 cartridge dumps available to download on it. My ISP shit
themselves upon getting the auto letter from them and pulled the plug
straight away. Currently looking to restart my site with the dumps
STILL intact but far more hidden away for access purposes. Let's see
if they try it again when the site (hopefully) relaunches fairly
soon...
Mayhem
Jaque Moreau
Just courious: Aren't you afraid? I have already a bad feeling if I put
an animated GIF online as I fear someone could bring me to court (think
of Gravenreuth).
MUD
I sent them a report naming their website. I wonder if their ISP will get
an automated message?
coldfire
Macguyver
Oh what a sad day to see that FUNET has deleted all of the Vic20 ROMs.
Alexandria was burned 2000 years ago and now this.
I've read a little of the posts in comp.sys.com about the emails which
were received from the software association. It sounded like a form
letter. Will FUNET consider putting up these files again if they do
not get any other responses?
It sounds like the word "ROM" may have tipped off their software
spider that is crawling the internet.
I truly hope there is something that can be done about this.
Read what happened at the "Below the roots" website, which is an Amiga
ROM site which only hosts ROMs for which they have permission to post.
Same thing happened to them. Only thing is, once they figured out
that that it was an "automatic" email, they ignored it:
IDSA (Interactive Digital Software Association), self appointed world
software cops, attacked our site again. Obviously they run a robot,
which parses sites for zipfiles with names of games they protect, and,
once detected, directly notify the owner of the IP space to disable
access without doing any research. That is exactly what happened to
us, now the second time. Last time (one year ago) we provided contact
details and the information that all stuff on our site is either
freely distributable or licensed. They did not even respond. The first
answer is the second attack now, mostly because of freeware and demo
versions! Fortunately the IT department of the university hostig us
are some bright minds. They disabled routing for our machine for a
while and asked IDSA to approve their statement in any way, which did
not happen, so they enabled our site again. Big thanks for this wise
reaction!
If you run a legal download site, please warn your ISP about the way
IDSA is doing their work, and that they blindly try to shut down
sites, no matter how many years of research you invested in getting
licenses to keep your site legal. If you're one of the companies
supporting IDSA consider giving your money to someone who takes the
subject more seriously.
Marko Mäkelä
Macguyver> Oh what a sad day to see that FUNET has deleted all of the
Macguyver> Vic20 ROMs.
The Finnish University and Research Network (FUNET) is not a regular
ISP. The system administrator of nic.funet.fi did not make the files
inaccessible; I (as a volunteer archive maintainer) did. Now there
should only be freely distributable games in the archive.
If someone else wants to host the files, that's fine for me. To keep
the IDSA robots away, it could be a good idea to distribute them in a
few zip files or something that does not mention the titles of the
individual programs. I don't think that anyone is specifically after
Vic-20 software; they are more probably looking for firmware of arcade
machines (for MAME) or non-8-bit computers and game consoles.
Marko
David Dahle
news:9d74e938.03051...@posting.google.com...
> Read what happened at the "Below the roots" website, which is an Amiga
> ROM site which only hosts ROMs for which they have permission to post.
I thought it was "Back to the roots"?
Dave
MayhemUK
> software cops, attacked our site again. Obviously they run a robot,
> which parses sites for zipfiles with names of games they protect, and,
> once detected, directly notify the owner of the IP space to disable
> access without doing any research.
It's not even really zip files... they listed key words to games where
I had no download on my site. For example, they sited "Mario" when the
only mention of that word anywhere on my site is in my wanted list of
games I'm after. Fortunately I've already prewarned my new potential
host about IDSA and as the company's boss is a big C64 fan himself, it
shouldn't be too much trouble just to ignore any crap they try to
throw...
Mayhem
Paul Foerster
> Just courious: Aren't you afraid? I have already a bad feeling if I put
> an animated GIF online as I fear someone could bring me to court (think
> of Gravenreuth).
... forget Günni.
Anyway, I wonder why everone gets so scared of that ISDA shop. I mean, I
wonder if what they do is actually legal. I wonder if they can't be shut
down themselves completely. How about attacking that robot in return?
--
cul8er,