Democracy is coming
Jim Rotonda
Thank you.
To the millions, worldwide, who took to the streets yesterday.
I think you may have tipped the scales.
Though it hasn't been widely reported; there is a deep division in the Bush
administration and US military.
Some of today's four-star generals were field commanders in Vietnam who
remember the results of following parochial political-economic interests
into war.
Jim
Fiona Harrington
Hi Jim,
Saturday the 15th was indeed a great day for democracy of the
non-parliamentary kind although I fear that our dear
non-democratically inclined "leaders," while perhaps nervously
regarding any upcoming elections, will go right ahead with the war
nonetheless. Bush and Blair are simply gagging for war it seems to me,
apart from anything else war can act as a very convenient conjuring
trick misdirecting people's attention from pressing domestic issues.
And there are all sorts of other reasons, oil being only one of them.
I marched in London and it was a stirring thing to be among the one
million, two million, or million and a half depending on what paper
one reads, all marching, or shuffling given the crowd, with a common
aim and hope. There was no trouble of any kind apart from a brief
scuffle outside the American embassy. We stood in Hyde Park, those of
us who actually managed to make it there, for three or four hours
listening to speakers such as Jesse Jackson, Harold Pinter, Bianca
Jagger, Tariq Ali and various assorted politicoes and trades union
representatives.
Giving peace a chance. It's a fragile thing though and I'm not
optimistic.
I've read that in New York the police were kitted out in riot gear and
beat up and arrested a lot of people for transgressions such as "not
walking on the pavement." The police here, while no doubt having
helmets and shields to hand, behaved themselves and were good humoured
which added to the feeling of security and well being even with all
those people on the streets.
I have heard that some high ranking military people, including Norman
Schwarzkopf himself, are not at all happy with the Bush administration
strategy. So maybe reason will prevail and the scales will be tipped,
I'm hopeful but not optimistic.
Fiona.
michael s. connaghan
trying hard to incite an incident. I guess that's what happens when the
peace crowd mixes with the anarchist,vegetarian,anti-WTO,
"look at me, I have a nose ring!" crowd. To say nothing of the
pro-palestinian, Jihad against the west, death to America crowd you're all
so cozy with.
Norman Schwarzkopf was on television here after Colin
Powell's address to the UN and declared that he agreed
with Powell's assessment and the need to neutralize the
threat posed by Saddam's pursuit of WMD's.
With over two hundred thousand troops in the field and
over 60% of the American people convinced of the need
to protect ourselves regardless of UN backing, there is no
way the peace marches amount to anything. The only way war is avoided is if
Saddam comes clean.
If you think we're going to take advice from people who
impute the worst possible motives to our actions, who are willing to believe
anything so long as it suits their own agenda, whose open hostility to our
way of life is well known, then you're mistaken.
Mike
"Fiona Harrington" <Fiona.Ha...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:a7ef36b.03021...@posting.google.com...
Jim Rotonda
I predict war will be averted. I can't see Bush going forward in this
political climate.
My guess is that behind the scenes negotiations will result in Saddam
stepping down but leaving the Baath Party in power.
I have no doubt that the organizing committees for the demonstrations was
made up of extremists of every persuasion and probably even included western
terrorist groups; (Baader Meinhof, Red Brgades ect.) But that doesn't negate
the existence of broad based opposition to invading Iraq. In fact this is
one of the few issues fringe groups can organize popular support for.
In any case and apart from the moral-ideological argument; from any
political perspective, it appears to me, that this war would be a giant
mistake.
Jim
"michael s. connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote in message
news:v52i91a...@corp.supernews.com...
michael s. connaghan
that Bush is an idiot, he's gone about this in the worst
way possible but there's no way he can go back at this point. Nor should he.
His first obligation is to defend the country not placate erstwhile allies.
It's nice if you can do
both but the former is considerably more important than the latter.
Congress, Democrats and Republicans alike,
have given him the authority to take action. It's mainly
the people who voted for Ralph Nader who are doing the protesting in this
country. Bush couldn't have been elected
without their help. Maybe next time they'll take political
realities into consideration when they cast their votes.
But, In my opinion, there is little they can do to change the
current course of events.
Mikenews:b2rm87$1fta9o$1...@ID-133917.news.dfncis.de...
Jim Rotonda
I found a list of best signs from the demonstrations, I thought you, Mike
and others would enjoy.
Jim
"NY GAYS DON'T WANT BUSH"
LESBIANS SAY "I HATE DICK"
Draft SUV drivers FIRST!
"Send the Shrub a pretzel"
Colin Powell, you're from the Bronx. SHAME ON YOU!
One nation under surveillance
Regime change at the White House
Drunken frat boy drives country into ditch
Tell us what to think.
"Is it Fascism yet?"
I ASKED FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE AND ALL I GOT WAS THESE LOUSY CRUISE
MISSILES
"i don't care what the people think; they didn't vote for me anyway" --
president bush
with a bush and a dick in the white house, everyone gets fucked
fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity
TONY BLAIR YANKEE POODLE
How did our oil get underneath their sand?
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease!
'regime change begins at home'
'empty war-heads discovered in washington'
"Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot."
"If we wanted a war we would have elected him."
"Vaginas for peace not Bushes for war."
Constance Kuriyama
> I don't see it happening, Jim. My personal opinion is
> that Bush is an idiot, he's gone about this in the worst
> way possible but there's no way he can go back at this point.
Where there's a will, there's a way. It's the will that's lacking.
Boy Georgie is clearly salivating for a war, egged on by Cheney and
Rumsfeld, those old Cold War horses who aren't content unless they have a
Threat From Without and Within to combat.
I note that Boy G. has no trouble doing rapid about faces re. North Korea.
He's quite shameless in that respect, because having to fight on two fronts
would spoil his party, as Kim knows all too well. I note that North Korea
is now threatening pre-emptive strikes against U.S.troops. Do I detect a
strain of mockery there?
> Nor should he.
> His first obligation is to defend the country not placate erstwhile allies.
But that's precisely the problem, isn't it? It's far from clear to me that
Saddam, rancid baddie though he is, poses an imminent threat to the US and
Europe. Why don't we just continue to contain the SOB and let him die, as he
inevitably will, without any special help from us?
> It's nice if you can do
> both but the former is considerably more important than the latter.
> Congress, Democrats and Republicans alike,
> have given him the authority to take action.
Compliant fools that they are.
It's mainly
> the people who voted for Ralph Nader who are doing the protesting in this
> country. Bush couldn't have been elected
> without their help. Maybe next time they'll take political
> realities into consideration when they cast their votes.
I did, believe me. Nader complicated matters, but Gore lost the electoral
vote. Unfortunately, the most competent candidate in foreign policy was
not the most competent political strategist.
> But, In my opinion, there is little they can do to change the
> current course of events.
> Mike
I'm sure there's nothing I can do--except hope that Boy Georgie is truly
keeping *all* of his options open.
Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
KZ2
letter/statement that comes from a beloved Buddhist Teacher...seeing that good
ol' LC has Buddhist ties I didn't think this would be too far off......
Karen
The Strength of America
All of my friends and disciples on the five continents join me to humbly ask
the government of the U.S.A. not to start a war with Iraq.
The war will bring destruction not only to the people of Iraq but also to
the U.S.A. and to people all over the world. Please look into your own past
experience with war to recognize the vast devastation that war creates for
all warring parties, in terms of loss of precious human lives, destruction
of the natural environment, and destruction of diplomatic relationships and
peace between nations in the world. Please use your powers of reflection
and understanding of the past and present situations in order to prevent
such destruction and devastation to the peoples of the United States and for
the protection and safety of people all over the world. Please look deeply
into the interconnections between the U.S.A. and all nations in the world to
see that war in one place will contribute to war in many places, destruction
in one direction will lead to destruction in many directions.
We ask the U.S.A. to operate in harmony with the community of nations,
making use of the collective wisdom and decision making capacities of that
community. Please help strengthen the U.N. as an organization for
peace-keeping, because that is the hope of the world. Please do not cause
damage or destroy the authority and the role of the United Nations, instead
support it wholeheartedly by listening to its recommendations. Please see
the U.S.A. as an active member of the larger organization of the United
Nations and seek to work together as an international community to ensure
the safety and well-being for the people of the U.S.A. and for all people in
the world. The United Nations, made up of many nations in the world, has
the capacity to provide and support constructive settings to establish
dialogue and to offer conditions for maintaining peace and security for all
nations in the world. Please reveal the great strength and wisdom of the
U.S.A. by showing the world that it is possible to resolve conflict without
the long lasting destruction and devastation caused by war. We will all be
very grateful.
Thich Nhat Hanh
and the Global Community of Mindful Living
Plum Village, France
16 February 2003
michael s. connaghan
a pretty good indication
they're moving in the right direction. It may benefit
a certain agenda to believe they are all compliant fools
but only a fool would actually believe it. I know that you are no fool.
You're smart enough to realize that not all
elected officials are as crooked, sadistic,and amoral as
Saddam (who only gets elected because he kills the opposition). The people I
know personally who go into public service are of the most sincere, moral,
and
conscientious variety. They tend to want to do what's right, that's why they
get involved in the process. If they
share a common fallibility it is an overabundance of ego.
Hardly a character trait that leads to being compliant.
On the contrary, they all think they're smarter than the
President (of course, with this particular President, they
might all be right) They're not going to go along with anything just to make
him happy.
Public opinion is another matter. They will listen to that
if they don't, they won't stay in office very long. At least
not in this country. That should tell you something about
the opinion of the majority. The far left may not like it but
they do not represent the majority. Neither does the far
right. Most people are smart enough to realize that the truth is found in
between the two.
Any politician that doesn't represent the will of his or her
constituents won't be around very long. Vote them out of office if you've
got the votes. If you don't have the votes,
maybe you're not in the mainstream.
Of course, if you don't live in a Democracy you can't get
rid of unpopular politicians. All you can do is hope someone from the
outside does it for you.
We'll be able send Bush packing in two years but the people of Iraq are
stuck with Saddam.
Mike
"Constance Kuriyama" <do...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:b2tqd0$sk4$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
michael s. connaghan
Mikenews:b2tppu$1ggarq$1...@ID-133917.news.dfncis.de...
Constance Kuriyama
> When only one person in congress votes against a particular measure, that's
> a pretty good indication
> they're moving in the right direction.
Or the safest, most expedient direction at the moment?
It may benefit
> a certain agenda to believe they are all compliant fools
> but only a fool would actually believe it. I know that you are no fool.
> You're smart enough to realize that not all
> elected officials are as crooked, sadistic,and amoral as
> Saddam (who only gets elected because he kills the opposition). The people I
> know personally who go into public service are of the most sincere, moral,
> and
> conscientious variety. They tend to want to do what's right, that's why they
> get involved in the process. If they
> share a common fallibility it is an overabundance of ego.
> Hardly a character trait that leads to being compliant.
> On the contrary, they all think they're smarter than the
> President (of course, with this particular President, they
> might all be right) They're not going to go along with anything just to make
> him happy.
No, but they will go along with a policy they believe will be popular, and
every politician knows that the public always supports wars, at least
initially, which is what Bush himself is counting on. He seems to be having
a harder sell with his "go it alone" option than he expected, though.
> Public opinion is another matter. They will listen to that
> if they don't, they won't stay in office very long.
Right. And it's the fear of bucking public opinion that lined them up
on Iraq, IMHO. But some of them seem to be having second thoughts, now
that it's clear that public opinion is ambivalent.
At least
> not in this country. That should tell you something about
> the opinion of the majority. The far left may not like it but
> they do not represent the majority. Neither does the far
> right. Most people are smart enough to realize that the truth is found in
> between the two.
> Any politician that doesn't represent the will of his or her
> constituents won't be around very long. Vote them out of office if you've
> got the votes. If you don't have the votes,
> maybe you're not in the mainstream.
> Of course, if you don't live in a Democracy you can't get
> rid of unpopular politicians. All you can do is hope someone from the
> outside does it for you.
> We'll be able send Bush packing in two years but the people of Iraq are
> stuck with Saddam.
Are they, now? I wonder. It seems to me that if they had the will to get
rid of him, *they* would find a way, and eventually they may do so. I'd like
to give them a chance to put their own house in order, instead of presuming
to do it for them at what could be an unacceptably high price, both for them
and for us. If they are truly the freedom-loving people Bush claims they are,
they will prevail of their own accord.
"I'm neither left nor right," by the way, but plunging rashly into the
uncharted waters of pre-emptive strikes gives me fits, and I'm not sure I
cotten to the idea of imposing freedom on a culture that is in some respects
inimical to it, either.
Connie K.
michael s. connaghan
culture is hostile to it? That's a stretch. It seems to me human nature
makes us all want
to be free. I doubt that they are any different than anyone else.
Also,your contention that all wars are popular at first is incorrect in the
extreme. When the Europeans aren't complaining we're too militaristic
they're bitching about
how long it took us to enter WWII. They accuse Roosevelt of staging Pearl
Harbor in order to facilitate
a change in US public opinion against entering the war.
There was also a lot of opposition to our entering WWI.
During the Spanish-American war many famous americans protested, including
Mark Twain.
Wars aren't popular with anyone, that's ridiculous!
Some people see the threat and others don't. Almost everyone connected with
our national security recognizes the threat, the people that don't are the
ones with absolutely no expertise in assessing the threat.
Some folks might want to get their information from communist front groups
like A.N.S.W.E.R., one of
the groups organizing the 'peace marches', but not me.
I prefer to take my chances that my government has my
best interests at heart rather than put my faith in people whose agenda is
openly 'inimical' to my beliefs.
Mike
"Constance Kuriyama" <do...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:b313lc$8gn$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
bill van dyk
Or wanted to register handguns?
Just curious. I'm never quite sure how to tell when the government has my best
interests at heart or when they're just lying to me.
Is there anything to be learned from the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution? If I
remember correctly, two senators voted against it.
There is a war....
Z.U.Oraqref
michael s. connaghan wrote:
> Oh, you don't think the Iraqi's would care much for freedom, do you? Their
> culture is hostile to it? That's a stretch. It seems to me human nature
> makes us all want
> to be free.
You're not free, stupid redneck. You have to work slavery all your life
to be able to have as much as a roof over your head. In the Roman days
slaves were much better off. Housing and food was free, and the labor
consisted mainly of waving a fan over the bosses head a few hours at
day, and only in summertime.
In Iraq people are much more free than in most countries in the world.
They don't have to worry about their government, they don't have to
worry about luxury much, they are not confused about their religion and
all they have to do all day is sit around, play backgammon, drink tea
and praise Mr Hussein every now and then.
Z.U.Oraqref
Joshua P. Hill
wrote:
>michael s. connaghan wrote:
>> Oh, you don't think the Iraqi's would care much for freedom, do you? Their
>> culture is hostile to it? That's a stretch. It seems to me human nature
>> makes us all want
>> to be free.
>You're not free, stupid redneck.
You fucking bigot.
> You have to work slavery all your life
>to be able to have as much as a roof over your head. In the Roman days
>slaves were much better off. Housing and food was free, and the labor
>consisted mainly of waving a fan over the bosses head a few hours at
>day, and only in summertime.
The problem with your humor is that it's saner than your attempts at
seriousness.
>In Iraq people are much more free than in most countries in the world.
>They don't have to worry about their government, they don't have to
>worry about luxury much, they are not confused about their religion and
>all they have to do all day is sit around, play backgammon, drink tea
>and praise Mr Hussein every now and then.
The Dutch ideal of freedom, eh?
Josh
.
"Z.U.Oraqref" <ora...@nep.nl> wrote in message news:3E557F61...@nep.nl...
This must be a joke, no rational person would utter such words.
Jonathan
s
>
> Z.U.Oraqref
>
>
michael s. connaghan
disagree with their government they get their tongues cut out. You should be
so free.
Mike
michael s. connaghan
registering my guns so long as they don't try to take them. I would want a
better plan for insurance than you have up north. It takes too long to get
anything done. No government is perfect You'd need perfect people to create
a perfect government and you're not going to find them on this planet.
Sometimes the people in power do the right thing and sometimes they do
what's best for themselves. Even with the best of intentions, mistakes will
be made. Government is a work in progress.
Governments don't lie, people lie. You should always be
careful about trusting anyone. People outside of government lie just as much
as people inside so if you're asking me who can you trust and who can't you
trust I can't tell you.
What else do you remember about the sixties, Willie?
Do you remember the Cold War? You can't learn anything about an event unless
you consider it in it's historical context. You were probably hopping and
bopping to the crocodile rock or something and you missed the big picture.
While I've got you here; I've been scouting locations for
the "LC Project". I have an extra spooky tree house that
would be perfect. I'm in negotiations with the owners but
they're insisting on a box of Cuban cigars as the deal closer and Fidel's no
longer returning my calls. If you can
send me a box of Monte Cristo's, I'd appreciate it. You
will, of course, be reimbursed as soon as the box office receipts start to
come in. Thanking you in advance.
MSC, Treasurer "The LC Project"
"bill van dyk" <bvandy...@spamrogers.com> wrote in message
news:3E556B10...@spamrogers.com...
bill van dyk
have to delete the talking dildo.
Sue Winterbottom
> > We'll be able send Bush packing in two years but the people of
Iraq are
> > stuck with Saddam.
>
> Are they, now? I wonder. It seems to me that if they had the will to
get
> rid of him, *they* would find a way, and eventually they may do so.
I'd like
> to give them a chance to put their own house in order, instead of
presuming
> to do it for them at what could be an unacceptably high price, both
for them
> and for us. If they are truly the freedom-loving people Bush claims
they are,
> they will prevail of their own accord.
It's a point isn't it? Something on the news here the other day about
every man in Iraq being given a gun to fight off the Americans.
Well if every man in Iraq has a gun, and they hate Saddam...
...or is that just in the movies?
Sue
michael s. connaghan
as the talking dildo and get Bill Clinton to be it's voice.
He's got some time on his hands and plenty of experience.
And I suggest you don't go insulting any more of Terry
Gilliams movies if you want to bring him on board. Some
of these artistes can be very strange.
Mikenews:3E562A37...@spamrogers.com...
michael s. connaghan
dancing in the streets with guns may or may not have bullets. So I wouldn't
count on an uprising
until they're sure they've got help. Then the hard part is going to be
keeping the rest of the country from killing the Baathists.
Mike
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b363jk$fe3$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Dont Be Fuelish
> "Send the Shrub a pretzel"
I went to a peace vigil on Friday, and there was a woman there
passing out "Dubya chokers". I took one and it was a pretzel.
Then I took a couple more because they were good. Dubya
Chokers. What a great name for a previously boring snack.
BTW: There are lots of pictures I took at demonstrations on
my website. Just click the pictures and you will see a lot of
signs, some as good as the ones in that list, which I enjoyed.
Tian
http://tian.greens.org/
--
Yesterday I biked to a forum about Privacy, Security, and
Democracy that was put on by the League of Women
Voters in Palo Alto. The City's Chief of Police said there
"Nationaly we are leaders in online Law Enforcement."
Dont Be Fuelish
>government has my best interests at heart or when
>they're just lying to me.
I'm generally happier when there is less money on the
table.
Tian
http://tian.greens.org/
--
This evening I went to a Mountain View City Council
meeting where I saw Councilmembers Pear, Stasik, and
Galiotto vote against putting a discussion on the Agenda
for their March 18th meeting. Perry and Neely voted for it.