Cheap Friends (and some whining)
Brian Reynolds
Friends right now -- the selection's not outstanding, but they have a
few of the small sizes for $35 each, and I just scored a size 6 for
$73 or so. Not outstanding prices, but much better than paying list.
Bring on those OWs!
Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
gear selection at REI and A-16? It pretty much looks like rei.com's
Friends sale is basically a clearance sale, and the guy at the
Manhattan Beach store acted like he'd never heard of them. And the
West LA A-16 doesn't stock Friends or Aliens!!
Are Black Diamond, Metolius, and Petzl somehow behind this? It's
reached the point where those three account for 95% of the gear being
sold in the climbing departments of those stores -- are they paying
the chains to NOT carry their competitors' products? It's not like
Aliens and Friends are crappy, unestablished product lines!
Thank god for online shopping.
br
Nate B
"Brian Reynolds"
> Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
> gear selection at REI and A-16?
then....
> Thank god for online shopping.
Hmm. Maybe it's because nobody is buying them.
Also - lots more profit in selling cloths to yuppies. Look at Eddie Bauer,
LL Bean and Land's End. They all used to sell tents and stoves.
Look for the Ford Explorer, REI Edition, next year - to compete with the
Nissan X-Terra. Maybe more REI's will install climbing walls, too. It
could help cut down on crowds in the gyms. Heck - maybe some sort of
holodeck to "test" cloths before they end up lost in some closet. It could
be the future of wilderness preservation.
What is it you're whining about?
- Nate
Brent Ware
> Thank god for online shopping.
Not if Duane Raleigh has his way (online shopping ads banned from
Climbing magazine).
-bw
Sue
Reynolds <fredal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
> gear selection at REI and A-16?
In San Diego as near as I can tell its alway been dumbed down. Colleen
was unable to buy a full set of nuts OF ANY BRAND at our local REI in
December a few years ago. Nope didn't know when more would come in.
But let me rant a minute. I am never buying another thing at A16. They
totally suck. There is a store less than 2 miles from my house, so I
used to pick up small things there. Like a hose for my platypus
hydration thingie. I bought said hose just after christmas at my local
A16, cost too much like almost 20 bucks, but that is not the point.
The damn thing broke after 3 months. So I returned it to the store. Of
course I no longer had the receipt (who keeps 'em for a 20 dollar
item?), so A16 has to return the hose to the manufacturer for a
"warranty evaluation" which will take 6 weeks.
Is this absurd or what? It's obviously broken (cracked at the point
where it screws onto the bag), it's obviously defective (it still looks
near new), and the manufacturer has a "lifetime warranty". It would
have cost them nothing to replace it on the spot.
Mike Garrison
>
> Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
> gear selection at REI and A-16? It pretty much looks like rei.com's
> Friends sale is basically a clearance sale, and the guy at the
> Manhattan Beach store acted like he'd never heard of them. And the
> West LA A-16 doesn't stock Friends or Aliens!!
>
> Are Black Diamond, Metolius, and Petzl somehow behind this? It's
> reached the point where those three account for 95% of the gear being
> sold in the climbing departments of those stores -- are they paying
> the chains to NOT carry their competitors' products? It's not like
> Aliens and Friends are crappy, unestablished product lines!
A store like REI can afford to limit its inventory in order
to limit its overhead. Since they are big enough, they don't
need to fill in the niche markets. Small shops make their
living off of filling in the gaps left by the big retailers.
-Mike
Dru Orion
> Nissan X-Terra.
i saw one of those convertible truck / SUV things that said north face
edition. i thought that was strange.
-Dru
Julie
Who named him Lord?
JSH
just saw this bumper sticker: 'Programming is not a crime'
Mike Garrison
>
> "Brent Ware" <bw...@bware.org> wrote
> > fredal...@hotmail.com (Brian Reynolds) writes:
> >
> > > Thank god for online shopping.
> >
> > Not if Duane Raleigh has his way (online shopping ads banned from
> > Climbing magazine).
>
> Who named him Lord?
JR "Bob" Dobbs did. Didn't you catch the press release?
-Mike
elmar
run as a corporate business, not the coop it proclaims to be. that
means soft goods are in and hard goods are out. i'm not quite sure how
that supports 'dominance' (their business strategy) in the climbing
market, maybe it's by sheer quantity.
rei stores are selected to carry certain items and not others, based on
someone's very uneducated opinion of what a store will sell. being the
climbing lead at the berkeley rei in 1994/95 was quite an enlightening
experience. i never figured out why i had to will call gear from hq so
that i could actually sell it or why we were not slated to carry pins,
heads, haul bags, and portaledges in our store (considering the
proximity to the valley)....
ahh yes, then there was the staff issue. the basic premise was to have
everybody 'trained' in everything, so people could help out around
various understaffed departments. this sure kept the budget in line,
but made for poor customer service. ever go in the place and ask a
simple question about a piece of gear? if you're lucky you get the
token 'climbing guy' who actually knows what's going on. chances are
you're not going to fare that well and are going to get a blank stare, a
referral, or just plain misinformation. this can happen at any store,
but is definitely more likely to happen at your local rei...
e. stefke
Russ Walling
neo...@hotmail.com wrote on 5/1/02 10:40 AM:
Wait till you see the FISH Products YUGO..... you will weep.
adios,
Russ
--
*** Stimulate the economy ***
http://www.FishProducts.com
--
Melissa
In case you don't have the mag:
"Dot. coms are not going to go away. They are in fact going to become more
prolific, and U.S. climbing businesses must change to compete. If I had
to guess, I'd say that retailers, distributors, and manufacturers will have
to work together to make product available to you at more attractive prices.
Time will tell what that means to the climbing industry.
Getting a game plan and making it operational will, however, take time that
many companies in our industry may not have. With that in mind, Climbing
is imposing a moratorium on discount dot.com ads. This temporary ban will
not solve anything, but it might slow the tidal wave. Regardless, it is
our way of showing support to the climbing industry, which needs a breather
and a chance to regroup."
I think that Climbing's ban on adds for discount online places is hypocritical
and stupid for the following numerous reasons:
1. There are "discount dot.com" adds in the same issue of climbing that
announced this 'moratorium.' Perhaps it hasn't taken effect yet?
2. Here are the climbing shops in the Bay Area (or as close to it as I am
willing to drive to buy gear.)
--REI
--Marmot
--The climbing gyms (which is mostly gym/sport goodies and a little bit of
trad stuff)
--Any Mountain (not mom and pop)
--Lombardi's (not mom and pop either)
--Wilderness Exchange (mom and pop, but pretty limited to cosmetic blems
and Croatian gear)
--Shorelinemtn.com's warehouse. (The only mom and pop venture with an diverse
and complete inventory of non-crap.)
3. REI.com gets business online because people assume that any large store
in this day and age is going to have an e-commerce site. Shoreline depends
upon their adds to get business.
4. Places like shoreline are able to carry highly specialized products from
tiny companies like Splitter Gear or Leeper because of their broader customer
reach. The big places don't need to bother with these things. The tiny
places can't afford to.
5. The online discount places fall into a couple of categories: cheap crap
for cheap and good stuff for pretty much the same price you were going to
pay anyway. The cheap crap for cheap places aren't competing with most of
the mom and pops because the backbone of the mom and pop shop is not the
wrought iron figure 8's and acme ropes that you get at these sites.
Two of the main (and best IMO) US online places with complete inventories
of that specialize in climbing stuff are Shorelinemtn and mgear. Shoreline
is tiny...about 5 employees. mgear is a little bigger, but still no REI.
Supporting them is supporting small climbing business directly and indirectly
because their inventories contain more stuff from small manufacturers than
any other site that I've seen.
6. Exactly where are climbers who don't happen to live in either an urban
area near decent climbing or near a climbing mecca supposed to shop for gear?
7. Just about every friggin' company big or small out there has an web-site
and some means of e-commerce, they might not all qualify as complete climbing
supply stores. Will they be banned from posting their URL? How about their
phone number too?
8. It strikes me as a bit ironic that about a year ago Climbing was considering
taking adds for cigarettes to 'keep subscription prices down.'
It seemed like the article might have been taking special issue w/ companies
like barrabes, but didn't want to name names and give away free advertising.
I don't recall ever seeing ads for non-US companies, which I think is a
different beast altogether.
Melissa
elmar
>
> Wait till you see the FISH Products YUGO..... you will weep.
the spy glimpse in car and driver reveals a vehicle similar to what fred
drove in the flintstones. were those your scrawny legs russ?
e. stefke
Clyde
> Brent Ware <bw...@bware.org> wrote:
> >fredal...@hotmail.com (Brian Reynolds) writes:
> >
> >> Thank god for online shopping.
> >
> >Not if Duane Raleigh has his way (online shopping ads banned from
> >Climbing magazine).
I was wondering how long it would take for this to appear here.
> I think that Climbing's ban on adds for discount online places is
> hypocritical and stupid for the following numerous reasons:
It has a lot do with half the specialty retailers returning all copies
of one issue of Climbing and R&I with an offending ad. And several other
companies threatening to pull all their ads.
> 1. There are "discount dot.com" adds in the same issue of climbing that
> announced this 'moratorium.' Perhaps it hasn't taken effect yet?
Ad space was already sold before the shit hit the fan.
> 2. Here are the climbing shops in the Bay Area (or as close to it as I am
> willing to drive to buy gear.)
The question is how many of the little guys will remain in 2 years.
It'll take 5 for the shake out to calm (judging from other industries).
> 3. REI.com gets business online because people assume that any large
> store in this day and age is going to have an e-commerce site. Shoreline
> depends upon their adds to get business.
They aren't the problem.
> 4. Places like shoreline are able to carry highly specialized products
> from tiny companies like Splitter Gear or Leeper because of their broader
> customer reach. The big places don't need to bother with these things.
> The tiny places can't afford to.
Kiss all that stuff good bye if the trend continues. Viscious spiral
with small companies, and ultimately consumers, the losers.
> 5. The online discount places fall into a couple of categories: cheap
> crap for cheap and good stuff for pretty much the same price you were
> going to pay anyway. The cheap crap for cheap places aren't competing
> with most of the mom and pops because the backbone of the mom and pop shop
> is not the wrought iron figure 8's and acme ropes that you get at these
> sites.
You forgot the main problem...a Euro company advertising false prices
and loss leaders in a full page ad. Nobdy at the mags noticed--they do
now.
> 6. Exactly where are climbers who don't happen to live in either an urban
> area near decent climbing or near a climbing mecca supposed to shop for gear?
Same as it ever was.
> 7. Just about every friggin' company big or small out there has an
> web-site and some means of e-commerce, they might not all qualify as
> complete climbing supply stores. Will they be banned from posting their
> URL? How about their phone number too?
Not if they don't undercut and take advantage of tax loopholes. Of
course, people who don't look at the economics of the situation will cry
foul and make accusations of gouging by US companies. Before you get
your panties in a wad, do some research; it's more complicated than you
think.
> 8. It strikes me as a bit ironic that about a year ago Climbing was
> considering taking adds for cigarettes to 'keep subscription prices down.'
Retailers didn't revolt over that.
> It seemed like the article might have been taking special issue w/
> companies like barrabes, but didn't want to name names and give away free
> advertising. I don't recall ever seeing ads for non-US companies, which I
> think is a different beast altogether.
Look again.
Clyde "not an employee of anyone" Soles
Brent Ware
Brent Ware
> I think that Climbing's ban on adds for discount online places is
> hypocritical and stupid for the following numerous reasons:
Well, me too, but for different reasons.
The first is that you can't really get any gear from discount online
places any cheaper than you can get it anywhere else. Yes, seconds
and discontinued, but I've been getting BD S&D ads in the mail for
years.
REI managed to negate my MEC membership. I can't get cheap stuff
from Canada mail-order anymore, and I'm not making the drive up to
Squamish anymore, so that's out.
The only thing that's significantly cheaper through the online places
is shoes, and if someone can tell me why I should pay $150 (or more)
for a pair of shoes that I can walk into Aux Vieux Campeur and get for
$80, then I'll stop buying my shoes through Barrabes. Try telling me
that the cost of living in Paris is cheaper than in Joshua Tree or
Bishop.
-bw
Brent Ware
> Wait till you see the FISH Products YUGO..... you will weep.
I always weep when I see a Yugo... from the smoke coming out the
tailpipe.
-bw
Julie
> Melissa <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 6. Exactly where are climbers who don't happen to live in either an
> > an urban area near decent climbing or near a climbing mecca supposed
> > to shop for gear?
>
> Same as it ever was.
That's the point: no, it's not. The world's a much smaller place now,
and companies like 5.10 AND Splitter Gear both have to deal with it.
The only thing that's the same, is that the consumer will go for the
best deal he/she can get, every time.
JSH
Sue
<cl...@clydesoles.com> wrote:
> You forgot the main problem...a Euro company advertising false prices
> and loss leaders in a full page ad. Nobdy at the mags noticed--they do
> now.
Clyde. I'm not really conversant with the averts in the mags. Doesn't
<insert your favorite USA online discount gear retailer> do the same
thing?
However a 66 dollar pair of mythos at Barrabes (plus 20 bucks for
shipping 5 day air) is not false advertizing or a loss leader. It only
seems logical that something made in the EU will be cheaper in the EU.
Why shouldn't they advertize here? and why shoud we pay almost triple
the price to buy the same shoes here?
Nate B
"Clyde"
> The question is how many of the little guys will remain in 2 years.
The real question is how many will evolve with the changing marketplace, and
how many will disappear due to their own complacency.
> Kiss all that stuff good bye if the trend continues.
Even Home Despot has plenty of tiny specialized junk...
> and ultimately consumers, the losers.
... and I love the place. I find everything there. I'm not the only one,
either.
> Not if they don't undercut and take advantage of tax loopholes.
Some tax, delivery and tarrif difference, sure. The premis that climbing
manufacturers and retailers aren't making more money here because our our
market supports higher prices is a bunch of crap.
> Before you get your panties in a wad, do some research
My panties aren't in a wad. I simply use my web browser to research the
lowest prices - just like everybody else does.
> it's more complicated than you think.
No, it's really not.
If retailers and manufacturers don't listen to their customers, they will go
out of business. It's just that simple. Hurray for places like mgear, who
started as a small retail shop - then got a freak'n clue!
- Nate
Andy Gale
Sue wrote:
> In article <1fbidot.1i8nkaz1osjmg6N%cl...@clydesoles.com>, Clyde
> <cl...@clydesoles.com> wrote:
>
>
>>You forgot the main problem...a Euro company advertising false prices
>>and loss leaders in a full page ad. Nobdy at the mags noticed--they do
>>now.
So, what does Climbing count as a "discount dot.com"? Does Shoreline
count?, Mountaingear? REI-Outlet? Or is it Barrabes? Or is it all
the foreign dot.coms? And if so, perhaps we should be asking, why the
fuck are the euro dot.coms so much cheaper anyway? Who exactly is
getting shut out? That's what I want to know.
Andy
D a v i d E m r i c h
"Clyde" <cl...@clydesoles.com> wrote in message news:1fbidot.1i8nkaz1osjmg6N%cl...@clydesoles.com...
>
> You forgot the main problem...a Euro company advertising false prices
> and loss leaders in a full page ad. Nobdy at the mags noticed--they do
> now.
Not familiar with that ad. One of few items I know of that are much cheaper
online from Europe is shoes from barrabes.com (and a few others). I doubt it's a
loss-leader, because I actually paid less than the Barrabes price for shoes in
a small store in Italy. If it were a loss-leader for Barrabes, a tiny sporting-goods
store wouldn't beat their price.
If there is a major change caused by the Barrabes situation, it might be that shoes
become less expensive in the USA.
Oh, the other item I know of that's cheaper from Barrabes, IIRC, is Friends (which
takes us back to the original topic).
David
Jason Liebgott
"Melissa" wrote in message news:3cd04c97$1...@eCompute.org...
>
<snip>
> --Shorelinemtn.com's warehouse. (The only mom and pop venture with an
diverse
> and complete inventory of non-crap.)
After my first visit, I was hooked. They are absolutely cool and have all
the gear, videos, books, etc that you want. They don't make that much
money - but still care very much about the customer. I can't suggest
strongly enough that they deserve support.
> 3. REI.com gets business online because people assume that any large
store
> in this day and age is going to have an e-commerce site. Shoreline
depends
> upon their adds to get business.
And they are opening a walk in store with displays, etc too because a good
chunk of their revenue comes from peeps off the streets.
> 4. Places like shoreline are able to carry highly specialized products
from
> tiny companies like Splitter Gear or Leeper because of their broader
customer
> reach. The big places don't need to bother with these things. The tiny
> places can't afford to.
They were the ONLY place anywhere near the bayarea that carried adjustable
daiseys. Only one other shop had even knew what they were.
For Climbing magazine to say that it's not gonna run ads... they are idiots
IMHO. I imagine somebody put some pressure on them... uhhh maybe the
RETAILERS who have to get less $$$ from their foreign market positions than
their overpriced US prices. I'd say that some of the gear - has a very low
profit margin - like cams for example. But a $160 pair of shoes? Forget
getting my dollar (not that they'd care).
I've given up the rags because I think the net is faster to respond to news,
more accessible and cheaper. Plus, I can interact with sites, create my own,
usenet my heart out AND read articles from people I know and like.
Later gator,
Jason
Melissa
cl...@clydesoles.com (Clyde) wrote:
>Melissa <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I think that Climbing's ban on adds for discount online places
>is
>> hypocritical and stupid for the following numerous reasons:
>
>It has a lot do with half the specialty retailers returning all
>copies
>of one issue of Climbing and R&I with an offending ad. And several
>other
>companies threatening to pull all their ads.
I would be interested in learning more about this. It sounds like you have
the info. Would you care to share it?
My objection is with lumping the small, privately owned us discount dot.coms
with the foreign ones.
>> 2. Here are the climbing shops in the Bay Area (or as close to
>it as I am
>> willing to drive to buy gear.)
>
>The question is how many of the little guys will remain in 2 years.
>It'll take 5 for the shake out to calm (judging from other industries).
And my point was that the only full service little guy around here that doesn't
sell crap gear happens to be a dot.com.
>> 3. REI.com gets business online because people assume that any
>large
>> store in this day and age is going to have an e-commerce site.
> Shoreline
>> depends upon their adds to get business.
>
>They aren't the problem.
But are they included in the ban? Nothing in the article led me to believe
that US e-commerce was exempt from the moratorium.
I think the total crash of the dot.com market has pretty well demostrated
that they are not going to replace brick and morter stores anytime soon.
Whether or not huge outfits like REI or MEC are going to replace mom and
pop, now that seems like a more open question to me.
>> 5. The online discount places fall into a couple of categories:
>cheap
>> crap for cheap and good stuff for pretty much the same price you
>were
>> going to pay anyway. The cheap crap for cheap places aren't competing
>> with most of the mom and pops because the backbone of the mom
>and pop shop
>> is not the wrought iron figure 8's and acme ropes that you get
>at these
>> sites.
>
>You forgot the main problem...a Euro company advertising false prices
>and loss leaders in a full page ad. Nobdy at the mags noticed--they
>do
>now.
False advertising is bad news whether it's done by dot coms or televanelists.
Of course the mags should do something about that. That's a different issue.
I hadn't ever seen (or at least noticed) a euro place advertise prices and
such in an american mag, and I was unaware of a boycot over such an add appearing.
You're right that it is a major group of dot.coms that I didn't bring up
w/ the rest in my little rant.
I wasn't setting out to make any statement about foreign dot.coms or to discuss
why their prices are cheap or why US companies must to some extent inflate
their prices in the US. For 200 different opinions on that see the Economics
101/Barrabes.com thread.
Why penalize US dot.coms because the foreign sites undersell anyone in the
states though? IMO, at least part of the reason that this happens falls
back on the shoulders of US companies that make products that retail in Europe
for well below US wholesale...less than US prodeal even.
>> 7. Just about every friggin' company big or small out there has
>an
>> web-site and some means of e-commerce, they might not all qualify
>as
>> complete climbing supply stores. Will they be banned from posting
>their
>> URL? How about their phone number too?
>Not if they don't undercut and take advantage of tax loopholes.
>Of
>course, people who don't look at the economics of the situation
>will cry
>foul and make accusations of gouging by US companies. Before you
>get
>your panties in a wad, do some research; it's more complicated than
>you
>think.
Huh? The internet is all about tax loopholes? I meant all businesses not
just foreign ones. Look in the back of a mag. Almost every company from
resolers to guides to gear has a URL listed. That's just how humans are
communicating these days.
I sat with the mag on my lap. That was part of my research. The fact that
I have speant and obscene amount of time and money searching for and buying
gear both in brick and morter stores over the past year (and trying to make
sure that I left no potential resource unexplored)is another part of my research.
The fact that I work for a climbing stuff retailer that is mostly offline
but has the option for online purchasing should you prefer it....you got
it, more research. For a bit more research, I spean a good deal of time
talking to the owner of a dot.com about his business and how it had developed
from his life savings into reasonable but not lavish living for a few people
when I was considering joining him as one of those people. I might not be
the gear man for a climbing magazine, but I'm not totally talking out of
my panty-wadded ass.
>> It seemed like the article might have been taking special issue
>w/
>> companies like barrabes, but didn't want to name names and give
>away free
>> advertising. I don't recall ever seeing ads for non-US companies,
>which I
>> think is a different beast altogether.
>
>Look again.
By non-US companines, I meant dot.coms. I will look again. It's hard to
imagine that very many of these adds could have been taking much space in
the mags. It sounds like one offender slipped through the cracks though.
I'd be ineterested in hearing more about it.
>Clyde "not an employee of anyone" Soles
You're not writing gear reviews for Rock and Ice anymore?
Melissa "knows more people who are umemployed from dot.coms than unemployeed
as a result of them" Michelitsch
Steve Helms Tillery
news:aap6om$cklu6$1...@ID-82914.news.dfncis.de...
Maybe that REI is supposed to be a not-for-profit coop -- you know,
serve the needs of it's members ... collective buying power ... all that
kind
of thing?
At least that's what the little co-op membership recruitment flyers say.
Hmm ... maybe "recruitment" is the word ... like army recruitment.
_______________
Steve Helms Tillery
Phoenix, AZ
D a v i d E m r i c h
"Jason Liebgott" <jlie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:aapq74$crr05$1...@ID-86199.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Melissa" wrote in message news:3cd04c97$1...@eCompute.org...
> > in this day and age is going to have an e-commerce site. Shoreline depends
> > upon their adds to get business.
>
> And they are opening a walk in store with displays, etc too because a good
> chunk of their revenue comes from peeps off the streets.
Yup. When I visited their warehouse, they seemed to have the best shoe selection
(in my size anyway) in the area.
> > 4. Places like shoreline are able to carry highly specialized products from
> > tiny companies like Splitter Gear or Leeper because of their broader customer
> > reach. The big places don't need to bother with these things. The tiny
> > places can't afford to.
>
> They were the ONLY place anywhere near the bayarea that carried adjustable
> daiseys. Only one other shop had even knew what they were.
I think Sunrise Mountain Sports has 'em. I know I've seen adjustable aiders there
anyway...
Ciao,
David
Brian Reynolds
I'm not sure that I buy the niche market argument -- like I said,
Friends and Aliens aren't exactly obscure, unheard-of products among
climbers.
But that said, where exactly are these small shops? In West LA or
Santa Monica, for example (I'm new to that part of town)? As far as I
can tell, they're out of business, as the result of the A-16s, REIs,
and Sport Chalets of the world.
I realize that lots of my climbing destinations have good shops
(Wilsons, Nomad, the Mountain Shop), but I just don't have all that
much free time that I want to spend my time in JT or in the Valley
shopping for gear, as opposed to using it.
Note to Nate B: I appreciate you argument -- I took econ in college
too -- but, personally, I shop for gear online when I can't find it in
real stores around town. Not the other way around.
br
Clyde
>> Sue wrote:
>>I'm not really conversant with the averts in the mags.
Me neither. I wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't pointed out.
> So, what does Climbing count as a "discount dot.com"? Does Shoreline
> count?, Mountaingear? REI-Outlet? Or is it Barrabes? Or is it all
> the foreign dot.coms?
None of the above. To mix metaphors, the Spaniards were pushing buttons
but it's the Dutchies that broke the camel's back. Look at the (forgot
name) ad and you'll see why people were pissed.
> And if so, perhaps we should be asking, why the
> fuck are the euro dot.coms so much cheaper anyway? Who exactly is
> getting shut out? That's what I want to know.
Therein lies a long tale that I don't have time to get into. Suffice to
say there is a lot of short-sightedness and misconceptions out
there...and, as usual, Nate doesn't get it.
Back to lurking.
Madbolter
>
> But that said, where exactly are these small shops? In West LA or
> Santa Monica, for example (I'm new to that part of town)? As far as I
> can tell, they're out of business, as the result of the A-16s, REIs,
> and Sport Chalets of the world.
Well I don't know if the larger stores really killed the smaller ones.
Chatsworth/Stoney Point area has had at least 2 climbing stores in the
past 15 years that failed due to oddball hours, hit/miss selection and
a smattering of employee theft (Backcountry Store/Art of Climbing).
I'm not even sure that REI was in the neighborhood at the time.
Pasadena has Outland Mountain Sports at Lake and California. Though,
their climbing gear selection is going downhill fast in favor of
softwear. Did they figure out the trend? Hmm.
-Rex Pieper
Christian :?
This happened w/ Telemark Pyrenenese and Couloir. (man my spelling
sucks, damn shiraz) Just a cave in for the higher priced color ads
(ahem!, scarpa, achoooH!). Plain and simple C/B analysis.
Saw a good one recently myself: Soy is murder
Cheers,
Christian :?)
Mike Garrison
>
> But that said, where exactly are these small shops? In West LA or
> Santa Monica, for example (I'm new to that part of town)? As far as I
> can tell, they're out of business, as the result of the A-16s, REIs,
> and Sport Chalets of the world.
Directly kitty corner from the REI flagship store in good
old downtown Seattle is Feathered Friends. FF is so
dependent on catching the REI overflow that when REI moved
its main store from Capital Hill FF followed them.
In fact, a fair number of the climbing stores in Seattle (of
which there are many) are defined by not being REI.
Of course they have had longer to develop that relationship
here than in any other place.
-Mike
kreighton
"Clyde" wrote
>
> It has a lot do with half the specialty retailers returning all copies
> of one issue of Climbing and R&I with an offending ad. And several other
> companies threatening to pull all their ads.
<snip>
Clyde,
Thanks for weighing in. I'm sure the situation is more complicated than it
seems, especially when the same old "capitalistic profit mongering US pigs"
argument is trotted out. I can't help but get the nagging feeling that the
whole situation is starting to smack of good old protectionism. As a dyed in
the wool capitalist, I'm all for free markets, and this is an instance
where, as far as I can tell and imagine at least, the kind of pork barrel
politics and export subsidy/import tax that supports so many other US
industries, are not yet at work. It's when those tools go into play that the
markets are no longer free and the tenets of basic economics fall down and
industries end up being unnaturally propped up(see the sugar industry).
What do y'all think? Should some Utah senator go to bat for the climbing
gear companies and slap fat tariffs on those cheap Mythos shoes sold through
foreign retailers? Is that necessarily better? I mean, I like cheap
California wine and all, but some reasonably priced Barolo wouldn't be all
bad either, if you know what I mean. Given how small the climbing gear
industry is, it's unlikely anyone will go to bat for the retailers, which
explains why they understood the need to force the hand of Climbing - will
R&I follow suit? Sadly, there probably aren't enough spare fingers to plug
the holes in the dam, and this will eventually shake out, for better or
worse, as Clyde said.
Lastly, would anyone, can anyone authoritatively weigh in on exactly how
this happens? Not impassioned conjecture or hyperbole, but a sound
explanation, from the source, on why, for example again, those Mythos are so
cheap through Barrabes.com.
best quote from the new Utne: "Subvert capitalism: Take a nap."
curious again,
kreighton, conscientious subverter...
Lynne
<snip a bunch of stuff that sounds reasonable to me>
> Lastly, would anyone, can anyone authoritatively weigh in on exactly how
> this happens? Not impassioned conjecture or hyperbole, but a sound
> explanation, from the source, on why, for example again, those Mythos are
so
> cheap through Barrabes.com.
I can't explain it, but will offer a data point. Don't know if it helps or
not, but.... A friend of mine is a (better not say the line) rep who will
sell me gear at his cost on occasion. He was unable to come close to the
prices I got on the xx and xx jr's I purchased for my children through
Barrabes. He can't even get his demos that cheaply as a rep, so you know
it's not strictly markup that makes those shoes so pricey here. He was also
mightily pissed that I discovered them and wanted to know how. Apparently
the manufacturers he represents (all climbing lines) harbor a lot of
resentment toward Barrabes, so it's not just the retailers.
But isn't it the manufacturers who set the pricing here and there? So
what's going on??
I work for a large, global, hi-tech corporation (bleh). Based on our
screwed up structure, I would guess that perhaps these climbing shoe
manufacturers have wholly separate operations in different countries (just
as my company does). I'm a lowly engineer and have no real business head,
so I'm guessing, but it could explain the price differences - though I have
no idea if this is the case.
Major Wood
We usually shop at ClimbMax or one of three other local stores. REI
has kinda followed the trend established by TNF by marketing to
yuppies with lots of cash and little sense. I was looking at my REI
dividend statement this year, and $75 of it was from the 1% credit
card rebate and $10 was from a $100 purchase I made last year with my
dividend check. Since I spend between $1-1.5K a year on gear, it is
clear that very little goes to REI anymore. This year I used my
dividend to take a big chunk out of a pair of sabertooths. As I no
longer use the REI card, I guess I'll just be getting clif bars with
my $12 check next year.
One thing that really pissed me off recently. The jantzen beach REI
used to have a back corner dedicated to returned gear and rental
sales. I used to go in every two weeks looking for bargains, and in
the process I would often see and buy something else in another area
of the store. Now they sell everything once a year in the parking
lot. Since they eliminated the practice of selling off things as they
came in, I no longer see any reason to go there at all, which is
really odd since A) I now live about 6 miles closer to the store, and
B) the store is next to a Home Depot and I go to HD twice a week.
On 1 May 2002 09:46:04 -0700, fredal...@hotmail.com (Brian
Reynolds) wrote:
>Public service announcement: rei.com has some pretty good prices on
>Friends right now -- the selection's not outstanding, but they have a
>few of the small sizes for $35 each, and I just scored a size 6 for
>$73 or so. Not outstanding prices, but much better than paying list.
>Bring on those OWs!
>
>Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
>gear selection at REI and A-16? It pretty much looks like rei.com's
>Friends sale is basically a clearance sale, and the guy at the
>Manhattan Beach store acted like he'd never heard of them. And the
>West LA A-16 doesn't stock Friends or Aliens!!
>
>Are Black Diamond, Metolius, and Petzl somehow behind this? It's
>reached the point where those three account for 95% of the gear being
>sold in the climbing departments of those stores -- are they paying
>the chains to NOT carry their competitors' products? It's not like
>Aliens and Friends are crappy, unestablished product lines!
>
>Thank god for online shopping.
>
>br
Brian Reynolds
> However a 66 dollar pair of mythos at Barrabes (plus 20 bucks for
> shipping 5 day air) is not false advertizing or a loss leader. It only
> seems logical that something made in the EU will be cheaper in the EU.
>
> Why shouldn't they advertize here? and why shoud we pay almost triple
> the price to buy the same shoes here?
Interesting that you mention that ... has anyone else noticed yet that
Barrabes will no longer ship La Sportiva footwear (boots and climbing
shoes) outside the EU? I didn't check other brands or other types of
gear. Free trade? What free trade? Just keeping the world safe for
price-fixing!
There's been a bit of talk about the larger manufacturers (BD, Petzl,
Metolius) pressuring Climbing mag to refuse dot com ads. I don't
subscribe to or read Climbing, so this is the first I've heard of it,
but that's exactly what I was wondering about REI and A-16 -- are they
being pressured (and/or paid off, which is of course just another kind
of pressure) by the big boys to stop carrying items produced by
smaller manufacturers? It seems to me that Friends and Aliens would
be perfect items for the big boys to take aim at -- they're popular
and have a great reputation, as good as or better than the cams that
BD and Metolius make, so if the store carries them, they're definitely
going to steal away a decent chunk of business. But at the same time,
CCH and Wild Coutnry are relatively small companies, without the
presence across markets to be able to exert counter-pressure.
Basically, here's what I'm asking: is it a case of REI and A-16
reducing their inventory to reduce overhead and thereby increase
profit, or is it a case of BD, Metolius, and Petzl pressuring
retailers and trying to drive Wild Country and CCH out of the cam
market?
br
Richard Schwaninger
Some small stores do it themselves, the killing part. Livermore (SF Bay
Area)
had a pretty good shop with some really knowledgeable guys. You could go
there
just to BS and get some beta. All the good people there have left. Last
time
I was in there they didn't know what a half rope is, and when I asked
for a
pink tricam tried to convince me SLCDs were the way to go - "Why bother
with
those fidgety things?".
I'm not sure if I need to go back.
rich rookie
--
"I banish fear, you lead"
Lynne
> Interesting that you mention that ... has anyone else noticed yet that
> Barrabes will no longer ship La Sportiva footwear (boots and climbing
> shoes) outside the EU? I didn't check other brands or other types of
> gear. Free trade? What free trade? Just keeping the world safe for
> price-fixing!
Since when? I just got a new pair of LaSportiva Mythos last month from
Barrabes (and 2 pairs of Boreals this week).
N42461
>
>The only thing that's the same, is that the consumer will go for the
>best deal he/she can get, every time.
No Julie. Not all consumers. I personally like small stores. Gear is generally
cheap enough, and I usually need it right then, and I don't Imelda shoes.
I detest mail order. Shoreline is great, and worth a trip whilst in the "Big
City" to get a CamHook or a BigBro......but if my local guy can get/has it I'll
buy it there.
The local guy sells that nice beige webbing. He'll sell me last years window
display haul bag for cost. He'll let me know who's been putting up new routes
or rediscovering the old ones.
And sucker thought I be, I'll pay 2% more for the interaction. I hate 'Verisign
Authenticated Secure Site" and "Cybercash Enabled". Those places could blow
away in a strong breeze.
'course so could the local guy, if nobody shopped there anymore.
nathan (19th century) sweet
Brent Ware
> I can't explain it, but will offer a data point. Don't know if it helps or
> not, but.... A friend of mine is a (better not say the line) rep who will
> sell me gear at his cost on occasion. He was unable to come close to the
> prices I got on the xx and xx jr's I purchased for my children through
> Barrabes. He can't even get his demos that cheaply as a rep, so you know
> it's not strictly markup that makes those shoes so pricey here.
I don't believe that. I know for a fact that the pro-deal price on
climbing shoes (which is close to wholesale) is pretty darn close to
what Barrabes charges. So if your rep isn't getting *demos* for less
than wholesale, he's either getting hosed by his company or he's
singing the company line. Ask your rep why shoes that he sells for $2X
here cost only $X everywhere but the US.
-bw
Tim Stich
I think YUGO had a car called the OUI-STAY.
Geoff Jennings
> best deal he/she can get, every time.
>
> JSH
If that was true I wouldn't have a job. And I'm proud of that. Some
people recognize that there is more to specialty stores (I don't count REI)
than simply taking an order.
Geoff
Bryan O'Sullivan
c> copies of one issue of Climbing and R&I with an offending ad. And
c> several other companies threatening to pull all their ads.
It's a shame Climbing didn't come out and say that, then, instead of
coming up with the craven line of horse pucky they managed.
c> Of course, people who don't look at the economics of the situation
c> will cry foul and make accusations of gouging by US companies.
OK, foul! There are plenty of mom-and-pop climbing shops surviving
quite happily throughout Europe, and I can get some kinds of gear
substantially cheaper at every single one of them I've ever visited
than I can *any* place in the US.
While I'm at it, ever noticed that nary a single retailer ever budges
from the RRP on climbing gear in the US (save to pad a few bucks here
and there), save when manufacturers are closing out the latest season
of fashionable crap they can't sell?
By contrast, I've seen variations of ten or fifteen pounds on popular
rock shoes in England, where they rarely go over seventy quid (around
a hundred dollars) a pair at the high end.
Clyde, if you know the US retail industry so well (as you imply),
where does the extra forty to sixty bucks tacked onto US shoe prices
come from?
c> Before you get your panties in a wad, do some research; it's more
c> complicated than you think.
Clearly there's something complicated going on here, but that's no way
to defend the status quo.
<b
Lynne
>
> Interesting that you mention that ... has anyone else noticed yet that
> Barrabes will no longer ship La Sportiva footwear (boots and climbing
> shoes) outside the EU? I didn't check other brands or other types of
> gear. Free trade? What free trade? Just keeping the world safe for
> price-fixing!
I'll be damned. I can't pull up any La Sportiva products on Barrabes' site
anymore. I wonder if I could if I deleted my cookies...
Mark Heyman
"Brian Reynolds" <fredal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:766eb38c.02050...@posting.google.com...
> Public service announcement: rei.com has some pretty good prices on
> Friends right now -- the selection's not outstanding, but they have a
> few of the small sizes for $35 each, and I just scored a size 6 for
> $73 or so. Not outstanding prices, but much better than paying list.
> Bring on those OWs!
>
> Here's the whining: has anyone else noticed the dumbing down of the
> gear selection at REI and A-16? It pretty much looks like rei.com's
> Friends sale is basically a clearance sale, and the guy at the
> Manhattan Beach store acted like he'd never heard of them. And the
> West LA A-16 doesn't stock Friends or Aliens!!
>
> Are Black Diamond, Metolius, and Petzl somehow behind this? It's
> reached the point where those three account for 95% of the gear being
> sold in the climbing departments of those stores -- are they paying
> the chains to NOT carry their competitors' products? It's not like
> Aliens and Friends are crappy, unestablished product lines!
>
> Thank god for online shopping.
>
> br
I've read further in ttis thread and I'm going to write more later. But lets
get this part straight first.
REI carries Wild Country and CCH cams so the complaint is a local gripe
That said, REI here has been "dumbed down since I dicovered it about 8 years
ago, (actually i think thats about when they moved into my area, only an
hour away!) . Still I believe local stores stock what they can sell, and
most stores can sell clothes. It's a no brainier. So around here REI is the
only store that stocks any climbing gear, since GV threw ED out and closed
their pro shop. Matt at VR might accept an order for gear, but I'd probably
have to wait a few months for delivery even if he tried to get it.
I am more like now to by gear at climbing destinations, but mail order is
really my only alternative to get gear near home.
Oh, Mellissa Mountain Tools ought to be on the list. Their catalog is pretty
good these days, and they have a few specialty items that are theirs alone.
Mark Heyman
Julie
Sure; my personal feelings run somewhat similarly. I'll pay for the
expertise gladly *if I use it*. I pick up small-ish things at the local
store without second thought; I do recognize the contribution of the
local guy to the community at large. So, I overestimated 'every time'.
The point remains, though, that there are an awful lot of us who, when
ordering pair #7 of the same-ol' 5.10 shoe, consider the choice between
$70 and $140 to be a no-brainer. If this smaller-world market offers us
that choice, we'll take it.
So the market *isn't* the 'same as it ever was' - the wool is off of our
eyes. Companies both large and small have to deal with it, like it or
not.
JSH
Nate B
"Clyde"
> Therein lies a long tale that
> I don't have time to get into.
Because your mind had been garbled by the industry. Or hey - put something
together to enlighten us. Don't just say I'm wrong and slither away like a
little weasel.
> Suffice to
> say there is a lot of short-sightedness
> and misconceptions out
> there...and, as usual, Nate doesn't get it.
Yeah - real PhD level economics here. I'll bet they're hiring guys right
out of MIT to make sense of it all.
- Nate
Nate B
"Brian Reynolds"
> Note to Nate B: I appreciate you argument -- I took econ in college
> too -- but, personally, I shop for gear online when I can't find it in
> real stores around town. Not the other way around.
You and Nathan - what loyalty. So - are you telling me that if your local
store was selling cams for 2X what you could buy them for online, you'd buy
locally? Your answer either way really makes no difference, because the
clear majority of consumers will go online. You do realize that, don't you?
This thread is about the masses, I thought.
I figure I'm Joe Average when it comes to buying stuff - except that I don't
buy much outdoor gear anymore... Here's a couple purchases over the last
year or so that I can recall:
Chalk - Neptune's - who mail orders this stuff anyway?
5 various size Friends - on closeout at Mgear. No brainer. Checked
Neptune's, but I had missed their closout.
3 guidebooks - Neptune's - online prices are the same. Small buck items.
Dana Design Pack - MGear - nobody local had my size and color. Same
prices, but tax savings were larger than shipping costs.
Thermarest - Neptune's. Low dollar, same prices as online.
Sleeping bag - local no name shop - new item (Marmot Helium) that nobody had
except these guys. I would have bought it from anyone - checked lots of
online places, local shops, etc.
2 pair Sportivas. Sierra Trading Post. Closeout. $50 off.
Most I know shop like this. Notice that I always bagged the lowest possible
total cost and don't really care about the service.
- Nate
Lord Slime
> I detest mail order. Shoreline is great, and worth a trip whilst in the "Big
> City" to get a CamHook or a BigBro......but if my local guy can get/has it I'll
> buy it there.
>
> The local guy sells that nice beige webbing. He'll sell me last years window
> display haul bag for cost. He'll let me know who's been putting up new routes
> or rediscovering the old ones.
>
> And sucker thought I be, I'll pay 2% more for the interaction. I hate 'Verisign
> Authenticated Secure Site" and "Cybercash Enabled". Those places could blow
> away in a strong breeze.
Hear! Hear!
In addition, if something's wrong with it, you have someone to
talk to about it.
- Lord Slime
Julie
>
> And sucker thought I be, I'll pay 2% more for the interaction.
How high does that number go? Oh say, 100%?
JSH, Imelda tendencies.
N42461
>You and Nathan - what loyalty. So - are you telling me that if your local
>store was selling cams for 2X what you could buy them for online, you'd buy
>locally?
And a few others, but no matter.
2X....no, but if they were say 10 to 20% more I'll talk to Jay and he'll cut me
a deal. In fact, there is a store policy for a local's discount of 10%. It
never hurts to ask.
>Your answer either way really makes no difference, because the
>clear majority of consumers will go online. You do realize that, don't you?
>This thread is about the masses, I thought.
A mass is made up of individuals. And all my self rightous crap aside, the
local guys are often cheaper and I can get my hands on the goods today.
nathan sweet
N42461
>>I wrote:
>> And sucker thought I be, I'll pay 2% more for the interaction.
>
>How high does that number go? Oh say, 100%?
I am not a Shoe Ho. I can only fit one pair on my feet at a time, and I don't
scab my feet around so they last a while. As I only buy a pair every 2 years or
so, I prefer them to fit, and try them on in the store where I intend to buy
them.
nathan sweet
Thor Lancelot Simon
N42461 <n42...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Nate B wrote:
>
>>You and Nathan - what loyalty. So - are you telling me that if your local
>>store was selling cams for 2X what you could buy them for online, you'd buy
>>locally?
>
>And a few others, but no matter.
>
>2X....no, but if they were say 10 to 20% more I'll talk to Jay and he'll cut me
>a deal. In fact, there is a store policy for a local's discount of 10%. It
>never hurts to ask.
I feel just about the same way, but I *still* end up shopping online, from
European stores, with some frequency. I can believe the hardware
manufacturers' story about how insurance/liability costs in the U.S. require
them to push greatly increased prices down through the North American channel
than they sell for elsewhere, but shoes? Come _on_. I picked up the
latest of several pairs of 5.10 Newtons from Barrabes for *less than half*
what the previous pairs had cost in the U.S; almost *1/3* the U.S. list
price.
Since wholesale discount is generally about 40% on this type of item, a
dealer in the U.S. simply can't sell me those shoes at the Barrabes price
without losing money -- while Barrabes charges a reasonable mark-up over
their European wholesale cost and does fine. 5.10 is simply gouging the
North American consumer because, until recently, they could get away with
it. The market's become more efficient and now they can't -- too bad for
them, but that's how efficient markets work.
If their U.S. dealers have a gripe -- which they should! -- it should be
with 5.10 for charging them wholesale prices that are higher than the
typical retail cost overseas. Holding a grudge against the consumers
who go where they can get the best price or the overseas stores who aren't
being gouged at the wholesale level and can thus charge a far lower price
is ridiculous.
My local store *does* provide a valuable service and I try to shop there
whenever I can, often even though it costs me a significant premium. But
ultimately, they're providing a service and there's only so much I'm
willing to pay for that service; when the shoe manufacturers set the U.S.
wholesale price so high that it's above the overseas *retail* cost, the
cost of that service quickly becomes excessive to almost anyone -- and
there's nothing the local store can do about it for any one customer,
unfortunately.
Eventually, the inequity in wholesale prices will sort itself out. If
the manufacturers were smart, and wanted to avoid the whole industry
going into a slump and many of the local stores being run out of business,
they'd bite the bullet and start cutting their U.S. wholesale prices
_now_; eventually they will be forced to cut them anyway. Wouldn't they
rather have those local dealer networks left over to sell their shoes
once it's all done? Unfortunately, they probably aren't smart enough
(or don't have the cash reserves or investor goodwill) to make the right
long-term choice immediately; and if the local dealers continue to blame
the consumers and the overseas retailers, instead of the manufacturers
who are the actual culprits here... the situation will get worse before
it gets better.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Dawn Alguard
>
> Therein lies a long tale that I don't have time to get into. Suffice to
> say there is a lot of short-sightedness and misconceptions out
> there...and, as usual, Nate doesn't get it.
This kind of crap doesn't help anyone. If there's something for
us to "get" that is logical and can be explained, then explain
it. The editorial in Climbing didn't explain it. You haven't
explained it. Where exactly are you proposing we do our research
into which ads the mags are banning and why if the mags choose
not to reveal their reasoning process.
Dawn
Brian Reynolds
I only know that two days ago, each La Sportiva footwear product page
had a little notation on it that they would not ship outside the EU.
I didn't look at other brands.
Today, it's more extreme: as of a couple minutes ago, there are no La
Sportiva products on sale at Barrabes.
br
N42461
>Today, it's more extreme: as of a couple minutes ago, there are no La
>Sportiva products on sale at Barrabes.
Yikes. Guess ya'll have to shop with that local guy you've been using to check
sizes..if he's still around......;)
nathan sweet
Melissa
> "Lynne" <Lynne...@insightbb.com> writes:
> > I can't explain it, but will offer a data point. Don't know if it helps or
> > not, but.... A friend of mine is a (better not say the line) rep who will
> > sell me gear at his cost on occasion. He was unable to come close to the
> > prices I got on the xx and xx jr's I purchased for my children through
> > Barrabes. He can't even get his demos that cheaply as a rep, so you know
> > it's not strictly markup that makes those shoes so pricey here.
>
> I don't believe that. I know for a fact that the pro-deal price on
> climbing shoes (which is close to wholesale) is pretty darn close to
> what Barrabes charges.
It depends entirely upon the shoes. For some the pro-deal is cheaper.
For my favorite (american-made) trad shoe, pro deal is still about
$30 more than barrabes (excluding shipping.) It's this little tidbit
that makes me feel pretty strongly that something is up with the
manufacturers that has nothing to do with sore overhead.
Melissa
Jim Curl
keep quiet about it. By making a big deal over it, it will probably
result in a lot of new business for Barrabes and others. I hadn't
visited their site (until now).
Frankly, I've always been happy with paying a little extra to keep the
local shops in business. Browsing the isles of a store is much more
satisfying than visiting a website. But I often buy on-line for the
simple reason that the local shops just don't carry what I'm looking
for. Maybe that isn't entirely their fault, what with a limited
ability to stock items and an ever changing array of products.
It can get sort of ridiculous sometimes. I had to order several pairs
of plastic mountaineering boots once in order to determine the correct
size. That's a lot of extra shipping charges, but what else could I
do? Fly to Seattle? The local REI (Cupertino, CA) not only didn't
carry them, three of the sales staff didn't even know what they were
("you mean like ski boots?").
Even with the huge savings, I'm not sure I'd want to deal with the
possibility of returning shoes to Europe, though.
Jim
Russ Walling
t...@panix.com wrote on 5/2/02 9:22 AM:
>I can believe the hardware
> manufacturers' story about how insurance/liability costs in the U.S. require
> them to push greatly increased prices down through the North American channel
> than they sell for elsewhere, but shoes? Come _on_. I picked up the
> latest of several pairs of 5.10 Newtons from Barrabes for *less than half*
> what the previous pairs had cost in the U.S; almost *1/3* the U.S. list
> price.
> Since wholesale discount is generally about 40% on this type of item, a
> dealer in the U.S. simply can't sell me those shoes at the Barrabes price
> without losing money -- while Barrabes charges a reasonable mark-up over
> their European wholesale cost and does fine. 5.10 is simply gouging the
> North American consumer because, until recently, they could get away with
> it. The market's become more efficient and now they can't -- too bad for
> them, but that's how efficient markets work.
Hey Thor, maybe you should think about where the shoes are made. Five Ten
technical rock boots (newtons etc) are made in the US..... So, since all the
other rock boots are made in EU areas, they will be cheaper in the EU, and
with this cheapness comes a thing called market share. If Five Ten wants to
compete in the EU marketplace, they will need to sell the boots at a
comparable price to EU produced products. So, what you get is boots from
Barrabes or whoever, made by Five Ten in the US, shipped to the EU at EU
comparable prices, then shipped back to the US for less than you can get
them here. The shoes value at standard margins in the US *is* the $100 to
$140 dollars you spend. With the quest for market share and world
dominance, entertain the thought that the EU *might* be getting Five Ten
boots for just over or in some cases under cost.
> If their U.S. dealers have a gripe -- which they should! -- it should be
> with 5.10 for charging them wholesale prices that are higher than the
> typical retail cost overseas.
Bzzzzt... wrongo... (see above)
> Eventually, the inequity in wholesale prices will sort itself out. If
> the manufacturers were smart, and wanted to avoid the whole industry
> going into a slump and many of the local stores being run out of business,
> they'd bite the bullet and start cutting their U.S. wholesale prices
> _now_; eventually they will be forced to cut them anyway.
Why will they be forced to cut them anyway? The eventuality of *zero* B&M
shoe stores means you will be shopping for shoes only on the web, *direct*
from the manufacturer. You will be paying less, and they will be making
more with the direct sales. Wholesale will cease to exist if the B&M's are
gone. You will have the COG and Retail Price.... that's it.
>Wouldn't they
> rather have those local dealer networks left over to sell their shoes
> once it's all done?
Depends. If another 250 million people get hooked up to the web, then
probably not. Wacking the entire dealer network will reduce the supply
chain, boost profit, make controlling costs easier, and wipe 80% of a
businesses headaches with Dealers, Reps, shipping and the like. It's a
vastly streamlined operation.
>Unfortunately, they probably aren't smart enough
> (or don't have the cash reserves or investor goodwill) to make the right
> long-term choice immediately; and if the local dealers continue to blame
> the consumers and the overseas retailers, instead of the manufacturers
> who are the actual culprits here... the situation will get worse before
> it gets better.
The local dealers should in part blame themselves for becoming addicted to
high margins and being glorified T-Shirt shops. They too should look to the
model above and adjust. It can be done, but business as usual is a thing of
the past for B&M outlets.
adios,
Russ (unofficial FiveTen sprayer)
--
"...what are you? Attached to this world?"
Walt Shipley
--
*** http://www.FishProducts.com ***
Julie
> The shoes value at standard margins in the US *is* ...
... whatever FiveTen *WANTS* it to be. Which is, no matter which way
you slice the cake, an ARBITRARY number, maintained by 'long tales' no
one 'has time to get into', and topped with a healthy slab of greed.
The underlying assumption is that we the sheep, will pay. The wool's
off.
> The local dealers should in part blame themselves for becoming
> addicted to high margins and being glorified T-Shirt shops.
Wait, weren't these the hallowed local shops filled with expertise,
we're supposed to pay doubled prices, to keep alive? Or was it FiveTen
whose abovementioned 'standard margins' we're supposed to support, after
all? Why are all the fingers pointing towards each other, here?
> It can be done, but business as usual is a thing of the past for B&M
> outlets.
That much is true.
JSH
Clyde
> This kind of crap doesn't help anyone. If there's something for
> us to "get" that is logical and can be explained, then explain
> it. The editorial in Climbing didn't explain it. You haven't
> explained it. Where exactly are you proposing we do our research
> into which ads the mags are banning and why if the mags choose
> not to reveal their reasoning process.
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. I'm not employee of any of the
mags, climbing companies or shops--they can jump in if they want--and
I'm way too busy to give a free education on the outdoor industry for
your web site. If you really care, subscribe to SNEWS to read their
article (it's copyrighted material) for starters. Look into trademark
law while you're at it to see why some products may no longer be
available from the EU. The conspiracy theories posted here are simply
BS.
Bit of advice: start saving all your US sales receipts for anything that
may ever need warranty service...no receipt, you treat. That's one of
the first changes you can expect from all this.
Nate B
"Russ Walling"
> entertain the thought that the EU *might* be getting Five Ten
> boots for just over or in some cases under cost.
You know - EU dollars just are not that far off ours in buying power. The
cost to manufacture over there, on average, is about the same as here.
However, as has been pointed out, a shoe made and sold there is 1/4 - 1/3
sale price of here. A shipping container with a few thousand shoes doesn't
add much to the per pair cost. I'd estimate 2-5 bucks per pair - 10 tops.
> The local dealers should in part
> blame themselves for becoming addicted to
> high margins and being glorified T-Shirt shops.
This would be my view - and manufacturers too. The fact that they are all
visciously protecting the market makes it all pretty obvious.
- Nate
daveap
Brian Reynolds wrote:
> I only know that two days ago, each La Sportiva footwear product page
> had a little notation on it that they would not ship outside the EU.
> I didn't look at other brands.
>
> Today, it's more extreme: as of a couple minutes ago, there are no La
> Sportiva products on sale at Barrabes.
>
> br
You just knew it wouldn't last...........I'm sure Barrabes got the pressure from Sportiva. Just a matter of
time until the other vendors do the same. Can anyone say deja vu.....(MEC).
dave
Nate B
"Clyde"
> I'm way too busy to give a free education
> on the outdoor industry for
> your web site.
Yeah - all of us here on rec.climbing are just way too busy.
> If you really care, subscribe to SNEWS to read their
> article (it's copyrighted material) for starters.
How about a link? Snews.com looks to be some cheesy shopping center.
> Look into trademark law while you're at it
I'll bet that unfinished degree in photography has made you an expert in
international law. Maybe I'll "look into it" and post some stuff too!
> The conspiracy theories posted here are simply BS.
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck - must be some lawyers and a few guys
from the CIA pocketing the other 300%. That's it.
- Nate
Maohai Huang
>
> c> Of course, people who don't look at the economics of the situation
> c> will cry foul and make accusations of gouging by US companies.
>
> OK, foul! There are plenty of mom-and-pop climbing shops surviving
> quite happily throughout Europe, and I can get some kinds of gear
> substantially cheaper at every single one of them I've ever visited
> than I can *any* place in the US.
>
That is a good point. I am in a city of ~250K residents in Italy.
There are 3 climbing gear stores all within 5 miles. None of them
seem to be dying. All sells gears at prices ranging from those
comparable to barrabes to 30% heigher. but they can easily give
you discount if buy often. The last time when I was there they
give me the 10% percent discount AND the 20% EU VAT tax deduction.
Of the three stores two are very small, on the scale of mom-
and-pop, the 3rd one is larger, about 1/3 of Neptune I suppose.
So how come they can live while selling gear so cheap ? I think
1) they get wholesale cheaper 2) gears are sold cheaper means more
people can afford, which results more young people being able to
take up climbing, which means more sales in the long run.
In the US, the climbing gear market is small so dedicated climbing
stores perhaps have to have a good profit margin to live. Well
I am sure the reason of US-EU price difference is much more
complicated than that. But I belive the size of the market is
definately a factor.
rich rookie
"Russ Walling" <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote in message news:B8F6D9C3.77FE%
> Hey Thor, maybe you should think about where the shoes are made. Five Ten
> technical rock boots (newtons etc) are made in the US..... So, since all
the
> other rock boots are made in EU areas, they will be cheaper in the EU, and
> with this cheapness comes a thing called market share. If Five Ten wants
to
> compete in the EU marketplace, they will need to sell the boots at a
> comparable price to EU produced products. So, what you get is boots from
> Barrabes or whoever, made by Five Ten in the US, shipped to the EU at EU
> comparable prices, then shipped back to the US for less than you can get
> them here. The shoes value at standard margins in the US *is* the $100 to
> $140 dollars you spend. With the quest for market share and world
> dominance, entertain the thought that the EU *might* be getting Five Ten
> boots for just over or in some cases under cost.
Wouldn't that be called dumping? Naughty. So we here in the US pay extra to
support 5.10's quest for world dominance because they possibly _have_ to
sell below cost in the EU?
richard
Brent Ware
> Look into trademark
> law while you're at it to see why some products may no longer be
> available from the EU. The conspiracy theories posted here are simply
> BS.
"Trademark law" is why La Sportiva shoes are no longer available from
Barrabes (still available down at the local store, I'll bet, and from
REI.com), he asks incredulously?
I'll buy "tariffs" but if it's TM law, I want to hear that story.
That's got to be convoluted.
But the fact is, government interference and collusion aside, the
invisible hand is going to work. And if its possible to get Five.ten
or Boreal shoes cheaper from a dot.com in the EU than here (or WC
Friends, or whatever), then the madding crowd will find a way to do
so. That won't be a problem for Boreal because they've already
figured out how to make a profit on $80 Aces in the EU. It might be a
problem for 5.10 and local stores. But they can either direct their
efforts towards getting legislation passed to keep prices artificially
high, or compete in the marketplace.
-bw
Dawn Alguard
>
>
> Bit of advice: start saving all your US sales receipts for anything that
> may ever need warranty service...no receipt, you treat. That's one of
> the first changes you can expect from all this.
I'm far too lazy to get service on anything smaller than a car,
but thanks for the tip.
Dawn
Edward Gerety
bit ago they published an article which discusses the international
situation. It was fairly dispassionate and informative.
Edward
"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:aas7mm$de2b9$1...@ID-82914.news.dfncis.de...
Christopher A. Kantarjiev
> > If you really care, subscribe to SNEWS to read their
> > article (it's copyrighted material) for starters.
>
> How about a link? Snews.com looks to be some cheesy shopping center.
>
Google is your friend - http://www.snewsnet.com/ looks like the right
place. But you have to have a (pay) subscription to get to the articles.
Nate B
"Brent Ware"
> I'll buy "tariffs" ...
I don't.
Tarriff charges are published on the net. Try searching for customs.gov or
whatever. We're talking 2-3% for most outdoor stuff - perhaps up to 18% for
a protected market (not any climbing gear, in my experience). You pay the
same thing when you order shoes through Barrabes, or cross an international
border with consumer goods. It ain't no mystery, and it sure ain't 300%.
- Nate
Edward Gerety
reducing their inventory to reduce overhead and thereby increase
profit,>>>
Interesting thought, but not fully developed. Large retailers stock what
sells. They manage by gross margin and turn. Slow turners and low margins
are weeded out in favor of those that perform better. The goal is that
everything pays it's own way. Climbing's a tiny market and they can't stock
everything, so the slow sellers go.
Edward
Martin Carpenter
"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote:
> You know - EU dollars [snip]
*Please* don't say that: It's "Euro", not "Euro dollar".
Similarly, it's not "Euro Mark", "Euro Franc", "Euro Schilling", "Euro
Peseta", "Euro Lire", "Euro Punt", "ECU" (or even "Ecu"), ... Given the
silly amount of time already spent debating the name for this thing on this
side of the pond, it'd be a shame for it to end up being called the "Euro
Dollar" by the global populace. Really.
Martin.
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
news:aasd99$p5a$1...@wanadoo.fr...
No; what's a shame is that so many people actually give a crap.
I mean, c'mon. The bills have an imaginary bridge on it. How much thought
went into _that_???!!!
- Sumo
Geoff Battin
>
> I mean, c'mon. The bills have an imaginary bridge on it. How much
thought
^^^^^^^
> went into _that_???!!!
>
More than went into your post. Can you say "oxymoron?" Sure,
I knew you could.
BatO
Jeremy the Sumo Climber
news:3CD1BD55...@hatemail.com...
Actually, dickweed, you missed my point. I should have said "effort" or
"money" instead of "thought", I suppose.
Oh, and you only _wish_ you were Batten. Who are you really? I'd love to put
a name to the face. And then a fist to the face
- Sumo
Geoff Battin
>
> Actually, dickweed, you missed my point. I should have said "effort" or
> "money" instead of "thought", I suppose.
I missed the point you failed to make? My bad.
> Oh, and you only _wish_ you were Batten.
She's my hero.
> Who are you really?
John Galt.
> I'd love to put
> a name to the face. And then a fist to the face
lol!
BatO
Thor Lancelot Simon
Russ Walling <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote:
>in article aarp51$5nh$1...@panix1.panix.com, Thor Lancelot Simon at
>t...@panix.com wrote on 5/2/02 9:22 AM:
>
>>I can believe the hardware
>> manufacturers' story about how insurance/liability costs in the U.S. require
>> them to push greatly increased prices down through the North American channel
>> than they sell for elsewhere, but shoes? Come _on_. I picked up the
>> latest of several pairs of 5.10 Newtons from Barrabes for *less than half*
>> what the previous pairs had cost in the U.S; almost *1/3* the U.S. list
>> price.
>> Since wholesale discount is generally about 40% on this type of item, a
>> dealer in the U.S. simply can't sell me those shoes at the Barrabes price
>> without losing money -- while Barrabes charges a reasonable mark-up over
>> their European wholesale cost and does fine. 5.10 is simply gouging the
>> North American consumer because, until recently, they could get away with
>> it. The market's become more efficient and now they can't -- too bad for
>> them, but that's how efficient markets work.
>
>Hey Thor, maybe you should think about where the shoes are made. Five Ten
>technical rock boots (newtons etc) are made in the US..... So, since all the
Okay, I'll think about where the shoes are made. You think about it, too:
shoes that are made *here* cost less in the EU than here. Shoes that are
made *in the EU* cost less in the EU than here. That set of facts doesn't
prove your conclusion; it's pretty must just plain irrelevant.
The inefficiency in the world market for technical footwear that allowed
manufacturers/distributors to maintain radically higher wholesale prices
here than in Europe just went away. There were two markets; now there's
one. The price may settle at the lower of the two levels, or it may settle
somewhere in between, but without external interference such as tarriffs
(which isn't going on here) we're never going to find ourselves back in a
situation where the higher of the two prices prevails.
That *is* how it is; it *is* how it's going to be. Blaming the consumers
for the pain of the transition is pointless and counterproductive;
eventually, if anyone wants to be able to sell any rock shoes that went
through the U.S. distribution channel, the price through that channel
will have to approximate the price through the European channel, because
it's not 1929 and nobody's going to make it illegal to mail-order shoes
from Europe, nor abolish the efficient transportation system that lets
them get here in a week or two for a few bucks even when shipped as qty
1.
Mike Garrison
Especially since there are already "Euro Dollars"; US
dollars held in reserve by European national banks.
-Mike
Russ Walling
5/2/02 12:47 PM:
> "Russ Walling" <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote
>
>> The shoes value at standard margins in the US *is* ...
>
> ... whatever FiveTen *WANTS* it to be. Which is, no matter which way
> you slice the cake, an ARBITRARY number, maintained by 'long tales' no
> one 'has time to get into', and topped with a healthy slab of greed.
> The underlying assumption is that we the sheep, will pay. The wool's
> off.
Uhhhh... actually your local mountain shop and the retail industry sets the
margins. Nobody puts a gun to the buyers head. They buy what they can turn
quickly and at the most profit. If you want to whip out the greed finger,
look to your local shop. Put the wool back on.
>> The local dealers should in part blame themselves for becoming
>> addicted to high margins and being glorified T-Shirt shops.
>
> Wait, weren't these the hallowed local shops filled with expertise,
> we're supposed to pay doubled prices, to keep alive?
Right, the same shops. How much expertise do you need to pick a Large or XL
off the rack? It's cheaper to have zero experts in the store and just use
high school fashion consultants. Who's fault is that? Not the
manufacturers. When your local shop can sell a Leeper cam hook and pocket
the same $300 they make on a TNF ermine festooned runway gown, the experts
will return. Until then, don't hold your breath.
>Or was it FiveTen
> whose above mentioned 'standard margins' we're supposed to support, after
> all? Why are all the fingers pointing towards each other, here?
The fingers are pointing because 93.4893% of the people in the world are
just throwing darts at a board and don't really know how it all works.
>> It can be done, but business as usual is a thing of the past for B&M
>> outlets.
>
> That much is true.
Correcto!
adios,
Russ
--
"Well, you might live longer, but at least I'll die with a full rack."
Craig Smith, arguing about rappel anchors with his partner who wanted to
leave another stopper.
Russ Walling
t...@panix.com wrote on 5/2/02 3:52 PM:
> In article <B8F6D9C3.77FE%Ru...@FishProducts.com>,
> Russ Walling <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote:
>> in article aarp51$5nh$1...@panix1.panix.com, Thor Lancelot Simon at
>> t...@panix.com wrote on 5/2/02 9:22 AM:
>>
>>> I can believe the hardware
>>> manufacturers' story about how insurance/liability costs in the U.S. require
>>> them to push greatly increased prices down through the North American
>>> channel
>>> than they sell for elsewhere, but shoes? Come _on_. I picked up the
>>> latest of several pairs of 5.10 Newtons from Barrabes for *less than half*
>>> what the previous pairs had cost in the U.S; almost *1/3* the U.S. list
>>> price.
>>> Since wholesale discount is generally about 40% on this type of item, a
>>> dealer in the U.S. simply can't sell me those shoes at the Barrabes price
>>> without losing money -- while Barrabes charges a reasonable mark-up over
>>> their European wholesale cost and does fine. 5.10 is simply gouging the
>>> North American consumer because, until recently, they could get away with
>>> it. The market's become more efficient and now they can't -- too bad for
>>> them, but that's how efficient markets work.
>>
>> Hey Thor, maybe you should think about where the shoes are made. Five Ten
>> technical rock boots (newtons etc) are made in the US..... So, since all the
>
> Okay, I'll think about where the shoes are made. You think about it, too:
> shoes that are made *here* cost less in the EU than here. Shoes that are
> made *in the EU* cost less in the EU than here.
Sounds reasonable to me. All shoes cost less in the EU..... because the
market is artificailly depressed in the EU to support a national pastime.
What is your point? I thougt this was already out in the open?
> That set of facts doesn't
> prove your conclusion; it's pretty must just plain irrelevant.
Not even sure what you are saying here. Reformat and send again.
> The inefficiency in the world market for technical footwear that allowed
> manufacturers/distributors to maintain radically higher wholesale prices
> here than in Europe just went away. There were two markets; now there's
> one. The price may settle at the lower of the two levels, or it may settle
> somewhere in between, but without external interference such as tarriffs
> (which isn't going on here) we're never going to find ourselves back in a
> situation where the higher of the two prices prevails.
Wishful thinking. The manufacturer always has control and the greed of
distributors will negate any price lowering. Example: Big Bad Shoe Company
(BBSC) sells shoes cheap in EU, and pricey in the US... Consumers wise up
and order from EU.... BBSC tells EU distributor, "hey we can't stop you from
shipping the 20 pairs of shoes a year to the US, *but* if you continue to
ship to the US, your cashcow of domestic EU sales profit will start to dry
up due to the fact you are on terminal back-order. Will they risk it?
Unlikely.
> That *is* how it is; it *is* how it's going to be. Blaming the consumers
> for the pain of the transition is pointless and counterproductive;
> eventually, if anyone wants to be able to sell any rock shoes that went
> through the U.S. distribution channel, the price through that channel
> will have to approximate the price through the European channel, because
> it's not 1929 and nobody's going to make it illegal to mail-order shoes
> from Europe, nor abolish the efficient transportation system that lets
> them get here in a week or two for a few bucks even when shipped as qty
> 1.
Somewhat true, but the recent problem is just a warning shot to the
manufacturers. The pricing on the two channels will not change, because if
the BBSC sells the product at the same price as the EU you wil have no BBSC
and your favorite climbing shoes will not longer be available at any price.
The BBSC will have gone BK.
Side note.... maybe this is why Barrabes has no Sportiva stuff on the site?
Sportiva USA cried to La Sportiva and they said to Barrabes to quit offering
the goods to the US or be cut off.... sounds pricey to Barrabes. Just a
tought.
adios,
Russ
PFW
5.10's are made? Transporation costs must be a very low fraction of
total cost. For example, normal (relatively cheap) atheletic shoes
are mostly made in Asia--few if any are made in U.S. or even Mexico.
Why are European shoes so much cheaper in Europe, as compared to
5.10's in the U.S. (that is, when everything is on a "level playing
field", removing transporation costs)?
Russ Walling <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote in message news:<B8F6D9C3.77FE%Ru...@FishProducts.com>...
Justin Driemeyer
> Sounds reasonable to me. All shoes cost less in the EU..... because the
> market is artificailly depressed in the EU to support a national pastime.
I've heard this claim made before, is there any proof of it? Do European
governments subsidise climbing shoe manufacturers? I doubt it, it seems
more likely it's simply the larger climbign market which increases
competition and drives down the price. However, if there's decent evidence
that EU countries do subsidise climbing shoes, I'd be glad to see it.
Justin D.
Arlen
> Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. I'm not employee of any of the
> mags, climbing companies or shops--they can jump in if they want--and
> I'm way too busy to give a free education on the outdoor industry for
> your web site. If you really care, subscribe to SNEWS to read their
> article (it's copyrighted material) for starters. Look into trademark
> law while you're at it to see why some products may no longer be
> available from the EU. The conspiracy theories posted here are simply
> BS.
> Bit of advice: start saving all your US sales receipts for anything that
> may ever need warranty service...no receipt, you treat. That's one of
> the first changes you can expect from all this.
Does someone ghostwrite your published stuff? This is about the vaguest
writing I've seen with your name on it.
I found a somewhat informative article on the web (it's free):
http://www.telemarktips.com/Webretail.html
I just don't buy stuff so programatically that I care much about the
industry's mechanics. If it's true that retailers make money only on
clothing, then it doesn't matter where I buy climbing gear. If I want to
talk over a purchase with somebody knowledgeable, I'll go to a local shop
(and hope they're not just pushing a brand to earn volume). If I need a
new pair of my favorite shoes, or a piece that I've researched, I'll find
the lowest price. Prematurely broken stuff? So far so good.
A couple things are interesting just intellectually about all this: one is
how the way markets are divided and protected has created an artificial
value for gear. In a way, the emergence of MEC, Telemark-Pyrenees and now
Barrabes and Sportextreme have let some light in on how "value" is about
how much we're willing to pay. If the high cost of gear in the US is a
result of the higher cost of marketing here, it's silly for the industry
to try to claim moral high ground against European retailers.
The other thing: if local retail shops are deserving of support (I'd say
they mainly are), let them set their own prices. Shops like ClimbMax and
Stoneage do a brisk business selling certified gear cheap; it seems like
Mom & Pop Climbing Shop could do about as well with a more attractive
regular price. Don't manufacturers require that retailers charge the same
price for gear? To protect them? It's relatively basic economics, I know,
but it's also hard to feel much sympathy for the industry.
In a way it's similar to what's happening in the music industry: with
sharing and burning so easy, recorded music has become essentially less
valuable than what the recording industry wants to (and thus has to) sell
it for. I realize that the climbing gear industry can't change its
structure overnight, and that if anybody is getting rich, the Barrabes
folks are high among their ranks (check out this link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/rich/article/0,2763,191224,00.html).
Ultimately, I'll buy whatever gear survives the changes and is a good
value, and I suspect it'll be good enough to use. The rest is a bit
academic.
Sue
<spei...@shell.pacifier.com> wrote:
In a way, the emergence of MEC, Telemark-Pyrenees and now
> Barrabes and Sportextreme
as a small correction, MEC has been around more than 25 years. I can't
speak to the rest. Its the American climbing consumer's awareness of
MEC that emerged.
David or Jo Anne Ryeburn
<shopkin...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> as a small correction, MEC has been around more than 25 years. I can't
> speak to the rest. Its the American climbing consumer's awareness of
> MEC that emerged.
Correction to the correction: more than 30 years.
The following is quoted from page 2 of the Fall-Winter 2001 MEC catalog:
"Just over 30 years ago, a small group of Canadian climbers stormbound on
Mt. Baker created a plan to gain access to less expensive outdoor gear. On
August 2, 1971, the plan became a reality when six of the group, all UBC
students, joined together to form Mountain Equipment Co-op."
David, with REI number 63592 (from 1967) and with MEC number 328-5 (from
1972 if I remember correctly). The "5" is a check digit which is some
function of the preceding digits.
--
David or Jo Anne Ryeburn
rye...@sfu.caz
To send e-mail, remove the letter "z" from this address.
Russ Walling
pfwei...@aol.com wrote on 5/2/02 5:45 PM:
> You lost me with your point made below. Why does it matter where
> 5.10's are made? Transporation costs must be a very low fraction of
> total cost. For example, normal (relatively cheap) atheletic shoes
> are mostly made in Asia--few if any are made in U.S. or even Mexico.
> Why are European shoes so much cheaper in Europe, as compared to
> 5.10's in the U.S. (that is, when everything is on a "level playing
> field", removing transporation costs)?
It matters where they are made to show that the real pricing is based on US
dollars and US sales. The cheap 5.10 shoes in Europe are sold at that price
to be competitive with European shoes. The point was that *perhaps* some of
these shoes are so cheap in Europe because 5.10 is selling them at cost or
below, and if they did this in the US, they would soon be out of business.
Second part is because the shop owners over there sell Euro shoes for less
of a profit because they are enamored with climbers. Just ask them. Now
the real question is, why are Euro shoes the same price as FiveTens here in
the USA? Put the *shoe* on the other foot......
adios,
Russ
--
"The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun."
Alex Lowe
Russ Walling
drie...@uiuc.edu wrote on 5/2/02 6:05 PM:
I did not say "subsidised". I said they are offered in a depressed profit
structure, ie: the shops make less margin on shoes than perhaps some other
items. Larger market is a good guess too, as is they just have a tradition
of of not gouging climbers.
adios,
Russ
--
"Don't fall now or we'll both go."
Layton Kor
Martin Carpenter
"Jeremy the Sumo Climber" <jpul...@extensity.com> wrote:
> No; what's a shame is that so many people actually give a crap.
How I absolutely agree! The world really needs more people that don't give a
crap.
> I mean, c'mon. The bills have an imaginary bridge on it.
You'd have preferred an imaginary... what? Pyramid?
> How much thought went into _that_???!!!
Too much?
The bridges and windows (you do know that there are imaginary windows, too?)
are a sequence of seven depicting the major European architectural
influences or styles. The sequence was designed by Robert Kalina of the
Oesterreichische Nationalbank and represents the European spirits of
openness and co-operation.
http://europa.eu.int/euro/html/rubrique-cadre5.html?pag=rubrique-defaut5.htm
l|lang=5|rubrique=100|chap=16
So now you know.
Martin (EuroEvangelist for the day).
Maohai Huang
> The pricing on the two channels will not change, because if
> the BBSC sells the product at the same price as the EU you wil have no BBSC
> and your favorite climbing shoes will not longer be available at any price.
> The BBSC will have gone BK.
>
They always discontinue people favorite shoes anyway. There are always
new models and new companies coming out.
> Side note.... maybe this is why Barrabes has no Sportiva stuff on the site?
> Sportiva USA cried to La Sportiva and they said to Barrabes to quit offering
> the goods to the US or be cut off.... sounds pricey to Barrabes. Just a
> tought.
The shoe prices in most European stores are not much higher than Barrabes
if the VAT is taken out. If Barabbes is out, there will be other European
web stores, or just stores having a web site and willing to ship to the US.
La Sportiva is on a up-hill battle. It can't cut off all of them. For example
the Chamonix stores are so big I am sure La Sportiva will hurt itself
if it cuts cham3s off. The dynamics work both ways.
aps
<Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote:
> Wishful thinking. The manufacturer always has control and the greed of
> distributors will negate any price lowering. Example: Big Bad Shoe Company
> (BBSC) sells shoes cheap in EU, and pricey in the US... Consumers wise up
> and order from EU.... BBSC tells EU distributor, "hey we can't stop you from
> shipping the 20 pairs of shoes a year to the US, *but* if you continue to
> ship to the US, your cashcow of domestic EU sales profit will start to dry
> up due to the fact you are on terminal back-order. Will they risk it?
> Unlikely.
The thing is, isn't that an anticompetitive business practice?
Rhetorical question: isn't that illegal?
Btw, thanks for sharing knowledge in such an acrimonious thread, Russ.
> Side note.... maybe this is why Barrabes has no Sportiva stuff on the site?
> Sportiva USA cried to La Sportiva and they said to Barrabes to quit offering
> the goods to the US or be cut off.... sounds pricey to Barrabes. Just a
Sounds like MEC all over again. IMO the significant change is the
availability of cheaper European gear (Faders, rebranded Czech gear,
etc) in US markets.
APS
Julie
>
> I did not say "subsidised". I said they are offered in a depressed
> profit structure, ie: the shops make less margin on shoes than perhaps
> some other items. Larger market is a good guess too, as is they just
> have a tradition of of not gouging climbers.
Ah. There it is, in your own words: 'They' (manufacturers, retailers,
middlemen, WhatEver) don't gouge climbers in Europe.
(Holding my breath. Counting to 10.)
*********** THAT'S ALL I FREAKIN' WANT !!! *****************
That's what it's all about, dude. We've been gouged (and frankly, the
matter of by whom is, as someone else said, 'academic') for years, and
that's quite clear now. The wool's off, the market's changed, and like
it or not, we're not paying for it anymore.
'Nuff said. Sorry for yelling, my car got towed this morning.
JSH
Sue
David or Jo Anne Ryeburn <rye...@sfu.caz> wrote:
> In article <020520021843378563%shopkin...@ucsd.edu>, Sue
> <shopkin...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > as a small correction, MEC has been around more than 25 years. I can't
> > speak to the rest. Its the American climbing consumer's awareness of
> > MEC that emerged.
>
> Correction to the correction: more than 30 years.
>
>
Thanks. I was too lazy to look it up.
Macleans mag had a nice article on MEC recently.
Russ Walling
5/3/02 8:37 AM:
> The thing is, isn't that an anticompetitive business practice?
Most likely.
> Rhetorical question: isn't that illegal?
Probably not. Look up the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Remember, being on
terminal backorder is different than refusing to ship goods to a merchant.
adios,
Russ
--
"...like the Jester, sampling the Kings food for poison."
Peter Boardman, describing jumaring on a rope someone else has fixed.
Russ Walling
5/3/02 8:56 AM:
> "Russ Walling" <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote
>>
>> I did not say "subsidised". I said they are offered in a depressed
>> profit structure, ie: the shops make less margin on shoes than perhaps
>> some other items. Larger market is a good guess too, as is they just
>> have a tradition of of not gouging climbers.
>
> Ah. There it is, in your own words: 'They' (manufacturers, retailers,
> middlemen, WhatEver) don't gouge climbers in Europe.
> (Holding my breath. Counting to 10.)
> *********** THAT'S ALL I FREAKIN' WANT !!! *****************
Ok, you got it. This is news to you or anyone? Let's disect: their stores
charge less / our stores charge more. Their stores make less profit on
shoes / our stores gouge the piss out of you..... plain enough? And in
"they" I specifically was talking about stores. As far as I know, the
BBSC's still make their $$$/margins on the sales to the stores. Let's point
the greed finger again..... who you gonna' point at?
> That's what it's all about, dude.
You called me "dude"?!!?!!!
>We've been gouged (and frankly, the
> matter of by whom is, as someone else said, 'academic') for years, and
> that's quite clear now.
Whew! An epiphany!
>The wool's off, the market's changed, and like
> it or not, we're not paying for it anymore.
Actually, you are probably better off with the wool on, because now that you
you know, the sting will be worse when you still have to pay.
> 'Nuff said. Sorry for yelling, my car got towed this morning.
Yell all you wont.... too bad about the car.
adios,
Russ
--
"Pieces are coming off my bad ear."
John Edwards, Denali 1967
Thor Lancelot Simon
Russ Walling <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote:
>
>Ok, you got it. This is news to you or anyone? Let's disect: their stores
>charge less / our stores charge more. Their stores make less profit on
>shoes / our stores gouge the piss out of you..... plain enough? And in
Not really. If "their stores" are regularly selling multiple brands of
shoes well below the U.S. *wholesale cost*, the gouging probably isn't at
the store level. It's hardly anyone's fault but the manufacturer's if the
discovery of this fact by large numbers of consumers has played hell with
that manufacturer's distribution system.
Thor Lancelot Simon
Russ Walling <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote:
>
>> Rhetorical question: isn't that illegal?
>
>Probably not. Look up the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Remember, being on
>terminal backorder is different than refusing to ship goods to a merchant.
Maybe the manufacturers would like to think of it this way, but the case
law does seem to suggest otherwise.
Maybe calling it "backorder" makes it easier to *get away with*, but it
walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, and a large number of semiconductor
manufacturers could tell you that the U.S. and E.U. regulators, at least,
sure think it's a duck.
Julie
> Julie at jh...@fu.bu.edu wrote
> >
> > Ah. There it is, in your own words: 'They' (manufacturers,
> > retailers, middlemen, WhatEver) don't gouge climbers in Europe.
> > (Holding my breath. Counting to 10.)
> >
> > *********** THAT'S ALL I FREAKIN' WANT !!! *****************
>
> Ok, you got it. This is news to you or anyone?
Apparently it is - to retailers, manufacturers, middlemen, the
collective 'They' who've all gotten their piece of (our) pie, by
deciding what 'They' think a fair retail price/market/margin is for us.
They are wrong. We are neither stupid nor blind. We just want a fair
shake (!), and haven't gotten one. Sure, we're just as greedy - but no
one's pulling strings for us (save barrabes) in this game. Markups are
only matched by more markups.
That epiphany is why the collective panties are in wads, ads are pulled,
stores are whining ... time to pay the piper, and for once we won't be
the ones paying triple-digit markups.
> > That's what it's all about, dude.
>
> You called me "dude"?!!?!!!
What's worse is my use of the term 'eh'. 'Dude' I got from a bonafide
SoCal surfer ex-boyfriend; 'eh' is from my (very Canuck) labmate. I've
pretty much managed to scourge the midwestern (college) 'Idahnnahwww'
from my speech, thankfully.
JSH
daveap
Russ Walling wrote:
> in article aaub84$sd1$1...@news3.bu.edu, Julie at jh...@fu.bu.edu wrote on
> 5/3/02 8:56 AM:
>
> > "Russ Walling" <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote
> >>
> >> I did not say "subsidised". I said they are offered in a depressed
> >> profit structure, ie: the shops make less margin on shoes than perhaps
> >> some other items. Larger market is a good guess too, as is they just
> >> have a tradition of of not gouging climbers.
> >
> > Ah. There it is, in your own words: 'They' (manufacturers, retailers,
> > middlemen, WhatEver) don't gouge climbers in Europe.
> > (Holding my breath. Counting to 10.)
> > *********** THAT'S ALL I FREAKIN' WANT !!! *****************
>
> Ok, you got it. This is news to you or anyone? Let's disect: their stores
> charge less / our stores charge more. Their stores make less profit on
> shoes / our stores gouge the piss out of you..... plain enough? And in
> "they" I specifically was talking about stores. As far as I know, the
> BBSC's still make their $$$/margins on the sales to the stores. Let's point
> the greed finger again..... who you gonna' point at?
>
> > That's what it's all about, dude.
>
> You called me "dude"?!!?!!!
>
> >We've been gouged (and frankly, the
> > matter of by whom is, as someone else said, 'academic') for years, and
> > that's quite clear now.
>
This has always been something that bugged me. Most, if not all climbing/tech
wear manufacurers *make* there
distributors charge list price for everything......(so I'm told). The only way
they can lower is during a sale or something.
Virtually all my friends clothing and climbing lines are like this. (my friend
owns a climbing shop). And, I know
that most of his venders have their retail markup around 40%. Pretty nice
profit if you ask me. I've been in sales for
5 years.........we have 20-30 different main "lines" of components. There is a
suggested retail price for all lines, BUT,
I can go over or under that price as much as I want.
What's the deal?
1. Are they gouging the hell out of us?
2. Spend the profits on massive R and D?
3. Price fixing to protect themselves?
4?
5?
6?
Does anyone read this newsgroup that works at a major techware co.? I'd be
interested in his/her comments.
Out,
dave
Mike Garrison
>
> The thing is, isn't that an anticompetitive business practice?
> Rhetorical question: isn't that illegal?
Ask Microsoft and the US Court Of Appeals.
-Mike
Mike Garrison
>
> >The wool's off, the market's changed, and like
> > it or not, we're not paying for it anymore.
>
> Actually, you are probably better off with the wool on, because now that you
> you know, the sting will be worse when you still have to pay.
Like the supposed rarity and precious nature of diamonds.
Ha! But somehow even if you know they are an artificial
monopoly you still end up paying way too much....
-Mike
Madbolter
>... time to pay the piper,
Woohoo. I like getting paid. C.G.or A gladly accepted.
-Rex "please contact us immediately to settle your bill" Pieper