How Did Gwen Stacy Die...
Onorio Catenacci
I remember a few months ago, a long thread of discussion about how Gwen
Stacy died.
Well, I was reading a back issue of the first volume of Marvel Team Up
last night. Issue #57. The writer was Chris Claremont.
Page 17 5th Panel. Spiderman is trying to save someone who's falling.
He thinks "The speed he's falling, if I snag him wrong his neck'll snap
like a dry twig." Next thought balloon: "...like Gwendy's neck snapped."
I just thought that those who were discussing this question might be
interested in this "proof" (as much as what one writer thinks constitutes
proof of the intentions of another author).
--
Onorio Catenacci
If you wish to reply via email OCatenac at Prodigy dot Net
Jess Nevins
Onorio Catenacci wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I remember a few months ago, a long thread of discussion about how Gwen
> Stacy died.
>
> Well, I was reading a back issue of the first volume of Marvel Team Up
> last night. Issue #57. The writer was Chris Claremont.
>
> Page 17 5th Panel. Spiderman is trying to save someone who's falling.
> He thinks "The speed he's falling, if I snag him wrong his neck'll snap
> like a dry twig." Next thought balloon: "...like Gwendy's neck snapped."
>
> I just thought that those who were discussing this question might be
> interested in this "proof" (as much as what one writer thinks constitutes
> proof of the intentions of another author).
Isn't that "proof" of what Peter Parker thinks, though, rather than what
Claremont thinks?
jess
ANIM8Rfsk
Mark Wallace
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20020120125859...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> "snap"
Yup. That was the sound effect.
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________
You want nanomachines?
I'll give you bloody nanomachines!
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/nmaj.htm
____________________________
Terence Chua
Catenacci <N...@NoSpam.NoSpam> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I remember a few months ago, a long thread of discussion about how Gwen
> Stacy died.
>
> Well, I was reading a back issue of the first volume of Marvel Team Up
> last night. Issue #57. The writer was Chris Claremont.
>
> Page 17 5th Panel. Spiderman is trying to save someone who's falling.
> He thinks "The speed he's falling, if I snag him wrong his neck'll snap
> like a dry twig." Next thought balloon: "...like Gwendy's neck snapped."
>
> I just thought that those who were discussing this question might be
> interested in this "proof" (as much as what one writer thinks constitutes
> proof of the intentions of another author).
Doesn't prove anything, since it's Peter's perception of those events.
Peter will always believe that it was his fault, regardless of whether
Gwen died from shock or a broken neck or was already dead before she
was thrown from the bridge - not so much that she died: the blame for
that lies at the feet of the Goblin, but it was his fault that he
failed to save her.
At the end of the day, does it really matter how Gwen died? The fact
remains that she did, and Spider-Man tried to save her and failed. From
a dramatic point of view, it might actually be better to leave it
vague, because that makes the tragedy even more poignant.
--
Terence Chua kh...@tim.org
WWW: http://www.khaosworks.org
KhaOS@TinyTIM: telnet://yay.tim.org:5440
"The meek shall inherit the earth. The rest of us will go to the stars."
Overmind
before Spider-man rescued her. The shock of the fall was too much for her.
Norman Osborne was somehow involved but why he kidnapped her, i dont
remember.
ANIM8Rfsk
before Spider-man rescued her. The shock of the fall was too much for her. >>
That's what the Goblin said, but that's just silly. First, if a FALL could
kill you by itself, there'd be a LOT of dead skydivers. Remember it's not the
fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop. Also, Gwen was unconscious. Hard
to get a lot of shock from falling when you aren't aware of it. And there's a
very clear SNAP sound effect coming from her neck.
Unknown
bottom panel. She is unconscious
as she is displayed from the panel where
we see the Green Goblin riding in to
capture her.
The webbing hits her and in the same
panel you see the SNAP sound effect
to clearly indicate that it is here
that she is dead.
>I seem to remember that its was the
>fall itself killed Gwen.
This is a long argued point. Depending
on your view -- IF you argue from a physics
point of view MOST people would PROBABLY
be killed from the shifting pressure
exherted on the body from such a height
hence the old jokes about ultra-powered
man catching someone almost on the
ground after that person were to execute
such a long fall. For some, they state
that the webbing catching her in mid-air
and bending her backwards was too much
for her body to withstand.
What is clear is that if Norman did
NOT kidnap her and THEN CLEARLY
throw her off of the Bridge top more
than likely the original Gwen Stacey
would NOT be dead today in the printed
pages...
Brian
"Unknown" <psi...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020120...@amanda.dorsai.org...
> >She was dead before Spider-man rescued her.
> No. Look at Amazing Spiderman 121 page 28
> bottom panel. She is unconscious
> as she is displayed from the panel where
> we see the Green Goblin riding in to
> capture her.
>
> The webbing hits her and in the same
> panel you see the SNAP sound effect
> to clearly indicate that it is here
> that she is dead.
>
> >I seem to remember that its was the
> >fall itself killed Gwen.
> This is a long argued point. Depending
> on your view -- IF you argue from a physics
> point of view MOST people would PROBABLY
> be killed from the shifting pressure
> exherted on the body from such a height
> hence the old jokes about ultra-powered
> man catching someone almost on the
> ground after that person were to execute
> such a long fall. For some, they state
> that the webbing catching her in mid-air
> and bending her backwards was too much
> for her body to withstand.
There was a Miracleman story by Alan Moore that had Miracleman injuring a
small boy for those same reasons. He tried to save him and wound up
breaking the kid's arm.
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Dwight Williams
>
> "snap"
Now Norman *had* to have heard that noise, same as Peter or Phil
Sheldon, yet he claimed it was the shock that did her in. And the police
and most of the NYC media were all too willing to let the Goblin take
the blame, snapped neck or not, anyway.
Never mind that Peter's always going to blame himself about this. We can
take that as a given.
Why are the police still willing to blame the Goblin years later?
Check the toxicology reports from the autopsy. That's my advice, fan to
fans.
--
Dwight Williams - Orleans(Ottawa), ON, Canada
Personal Homesite: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my Usenet postings, not some archival service!
ANIM8Rfsk
Nah
Goblin is some distant away on a jet flame spewing flying bat. Don't think
neck snapping is THAT loud.
:-)
<< And the police
and most of the NYC media were all too willing to let the Goblin take
the blame, snapped neck or not, anyway. >>
Uh - the Goblin murdered her. Doesn't matter if there was a failed rescue
attempt or not; he tossed her off the bridge. Unless somebody intervened,
she'd just been murdered. If Peter saved her, it's attempted murder for the
Goblin. Since he didn't, it's Murder One.
<< Check the toxicology reports from the autopsy. That's my advice, fan to
fans. >>
That would be interesting.
ANIM8Rfsk
point of view MOST people would PROBABLY
be killed from the shifting pressure
exherted on the body from such a height >>
What? Then why do sky divers live?
Jim Connick
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
Mutant abilities, I believe.
Jim
ANIM8Rfsk
> exherted on the body from such a height >>
>
> What? Then why do sky divers live?
>
Mutant abilities, I believe. >>
LOL!
Overmind
skydiving have prepared themselves for the experience but a person who
suddenly falls off of a building could suffer a heart attack or stroke due
to the physical/ psychological shock of the experience and die before
hitting the ground.
Josh Dull
But was she dead before Spidey tried to save her
or did he accidentally kill her?
Josh
ANIM8Rfsk
<< But in theory people
skydiving have prepared themselves for the experience but a person who
suddenly falls off of a building could suffer a heart attack or stroke >>
Uh, she's unconscious. Probably drugged. Never knew what hit her.
<< due
to the physical/ psychological shock of the experience and die before
hitting the ground. >>
Ever hear of bungie jumping?
Randall P. MacMurphy
Washington Bridge or Brooklyn Bridge? My speculation is that the original
draft probably called for the snapped neck but the editors thought it too
harsh and tamed it down to the peculiar "shock of the fall" which I can
only assume translates to heart attack.
Dave Doty
> My speculation is that the original
> draft probably called for the snapped neck but the editors thought it too
> harsh and tamed it down to the peculiar "shock of the fall" which I can
> only assume translates to heart attack.
Wasn't it the other way around: that Gerry Conway was surprised to see the
"snap" sound effect appear in the story, when he hadn't written it in?
Dave Doty
Michael
Thank you. I'm glad someone else remembered she was unconscious when
she was pushed/tossed off the bridge. I agree, the shock of falling
didn't kill her, the sudden stop when Peter's webline caught her
snapped her neck and killed her. I didn't realize this was even
something to debate. I thought the "SNAP" sound effect made it pretty
clear her neck broke.
~Michael
Flash Forever
Both of the ASM issues involving Gwen Stacey's and the Goblin's death
have been reprinted numerous times, but most recently in the 100
Greatest Marvel's of All Time series. (I recently picked up the entire
collection--minus one--at my local comics shop for $1 each so look for
these at discounted prices!)
ASM #121, "The night Gwen Stacey Died" ranked as #6 amongst the
"Greatest Marvels."
Gwen Stacey died during a fall from the Brooklyn Bridge. The last few
pages break down as follows:
Spider-Man (hampered by what appears to be the flu or a severe cold
which he contracted in the previous ish while fighting the Hulk in
Canada) is drawn by his Spider-Sense to the Brooklyn Bridge where he
finds Green Goblin and the kidnapped Gwen Stacey.
Gwen is lying unconcious atop one of the bridge's support beams. There's
a knock-down, drag-out between Spidey and GG and in the end, Spidey puts
everything he's got into one punch in order to knock the Goblin out. The
Goblin falls from the bridge but manages to land on his flyer (unnoticed
by Spidey). Spidey runs to Gwen's side.
Spidey: He's down--for a while, at least. Even getting together what
strength I have left--I could pack much of a wallop.
Nex panel: Spidey runs to Gwen. Spidey: My best be is to pick up Gwen
and run. And there's the lady now--out like a light. Good thing too--if
Spidey's to save his secret i.d. (Goblin was in on Spidey's alter-ego)
Next panel: Goblin falls onto the sky-cycle. Narration: But, as Spidey
hurries toward a jubilant reunion--the Green Goblin performs a reunion
of his won, aided by the remote-controlled flyer of his own design!
Next panel: Spidey reaches the uncounscious Gwen. Spidey: Gwen! Looks
like she's in a state of shock! I'd better get her to a hospital--have
them giver her a sedative of some kind--
Next panel: Goblin flys toward Spidey. Goblin: You cursed interloper!
You'll never take that girl anywhere!
Next panel: Goblin whacks Spidey with a pumpkin bomb. The shock of the
explosion sends Gwen hurtling off the bridge. Goblin: She's doomed, do
you hear me? DOOMED! And so are you!
Next panel: Gwen is pictured falling from high atop the Brooklyn Bridge
with Spidey looking on. Spidey: Gwen! No!
Next panel: Spidey shoots his webbing down towards Gwen. Spidey: I've
got to catch her her--stop her fall before she hits the water!
Next panel: Webbing almost reaches Gwen. Spidey (from off-panel): I've
got to! I've got to!
Next panel: (And here's the money-shot, faithful readers) Spidey's
webbing catches Gwen by the ankle. There are two sound-effects, the
"swik" of the webbing wrapping around her ankle and (near her neck) the
simple sfx, "Snap!" Spidey: Did it!"
Next panel: Spidey is shown pulling Gwen up by the webbing towards the
top of the bridge. Spidey: Spider powers, I love you! Not only am I the
most dashing hero on two legs--
Next panel: Spidey is pictured holding Gwen. The first time he's been
close to her since prior to the rescue attempt. Spidey: I'm easily the
most versatile. Who else could save a failling girl from certain
dea--Gwen?"
Next panel: Close shot of Spidey holding Gwen, his fingers under her
chin. He begins to realize something is wrong. Spidey: Hey, kid--what's
wrong? Don't you understand? I saved you--you can't be--"
Next panel: Close shot of Spidey holding Gwen's body. Spidey: No! Oh,
no, no, no-don't be dead Gwen--I don't want you to be dead!
Next panel: Long shot of the two of them atop the bridge. Spidey: I
saved you honey--don't you see? I saved you..."
Next panel: Spidey is shocked by the Goblin's voice (from off-panel).
Goblin: Romantic idiot! She was dead before your webbing reacher her!
Next panel: Goblin hovers above Spidey and Gwen on his sky-cycle.
Goblin: A fall from that height would kill anyone--before they struck
the ground! But for you, my friend--death will come more quickly and
more surely than the shock of a sudden fall!
Last page of the ish. A full page shot of an enraged Spidey holding
Gwen's body, shaking his fist toward an unseen Goblin. Spidey: You're
the creep who's going to pay! I'm going to get you, Goblin! I'm going to
destroy you slowly--and when you start begging me to end it--I'm oing to
remind you of one thing--you killed the woman I love--and for that,
you're going to die!"
And in the next issue, well...that's discussion for another time. My
humble attempt at a no-prize on this one: Goblin's pumpkin bomb killed
Gwen? If not, it *had* to be the snapped neck. She was unconcious the
whole time--shock doesn't make sense. Anyways, the script above is how
Gerry Conway apparently wrote it.
Jim Wilkerson
"Flash Forever" <flashf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:26938-3C...@storefull-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Jim Wilkerson
"Flash Forever" wrote:
> Next panel: (And here's the money-shot, faithful readers) Spidey's
> webbing catches Gwen by the ankle. There are two sound-effects, the
> "swik" of the webbing wrapping around her ankle and (near her neck) the
> simple sfx, "Snap!" Spidey: Did it!"
> And in the next issue, well...that's discussion for another time. My
> humble attempt at a no-prize on this one: Goblin's pumpkin bomb killed
> Gwen? If not, it *had* to be the snapped neck. She was unconcious the
> whole time--shock doesn't make sense. Anyways, the script above is how
> Gerry Conway apparently wrote it.
In a retrospective that CBG did on Gwen's death, according to Conway, the
"snap" was not in the script. He, nor the artist, know who added the effect
but Conway was sure that he didn't write the effect in his finished story.
It was mentioned that perhaps the letterer may have added it.
Jim Wilkerson
Patrick MARCEL
> but Conway was sure that he didn't write the effect in his finished story.
> It was mentioned that perhaps the letterer may have added it.
Didn't I read some story somewhere (yeah, I know: pinpoint accuracy, here.
Maybe a COMIC ARTIST issue covering that topic?) where the editor (was that
Thomas?) thought the broken neck was too graphic and had the death by shock
explanation inserted?
And then, of course, somebody forgot to remove the SNAP.
Not to contradict Gerry Conway, but I find it very strange that a letterer
would have decided to add a SNAP, just for the heck of it.
Patrick
--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Unknown
>What? Then why do sky divers live?
Because they are AWAKE and have been
trained to shift their bodies to
adjust themselves so the wind
sheer doesn't kill them and
activate a parachute before they
hit the "unopenable" level
Gwen was thrown off UNCONSCIOUS
about three hundred feet
and unless I missed it in brainy's
boxes she had NOT taken skydiving
lessons and had no life saving
device such as a bungee cord since
the parachute would not open at
that limited distance from the ground....
I should let brainy back on the account
shouldn't I? But since he's in England
right now...
Unknown
That is the answer that ONLY the
writers know. Most state that
she was alive but unconscious
when Norman threw Gwen off the bridge.
Some say she was already dead
(Personally I do NOT think she
was written as such though)
Some state she was not dead until
the snap in Peter's attempt that
bent her back beyond limits.
But the idea is that precise
answer is immaterial to
the result that is produced...
namely Peter is now so angry that
he DEFINITELY goes after the
Goblin in a DELIBERATE attempt
to kill him in revenge which
while NOT directly with his
hands Peter does end up doing
letting Norman's goblin glider
turn right back into his chest
impaling him on the goblin head
points.
That was the DEFINITE turn away
from the earlier incarnation of
the "friendly neighborhood" hero...
Unknown
>Gerry Conway was surprised to see the
>"snap" sound effect appear in the story,
>when he hadn't written it in?
That's pecular as I remember him stating
that there was NO DOUBT that he had
written Gwen to be killed DIRECTLY
in that episode and be killed
PRECISELY in that fall. Perhaps
he did NOT mean it to be a blatant
sound that loud.
Dave Doty
> That's pecular as I remember him stating
> that there was NO DOUBT that he had
> written Gwen to be killed DIRECTLY
> in that episode and be killed
> PRECISELY in that fall.
Because she died in the fall doesn't mean she died of a broken neck from
being grabbed, which is the implication of the sound effect. The two
comments aren't incompatible.
Dave Doty
Mathew Krull
> ANIM8Rfsk wrote (tongue firmly in cheek):
>
> >What? Then why do sky divers live?
>
> Because they are AWAKE and have been
> trained to shift their bodies to
> adjust themselves so the wind
> sheer doesn't kill them and
> activate a parachute before they
> hit the "unopenable" level
>
I can't believe I'm answering this, but not all skydivers have
that great of a level of experience. For example, first time
jumpers would not have that sort of insight and skill. So why
don't they die from shock?
>
> Gwen was thrown off UNCONSCIOUS
> about three hundred feet
> and unless I missed it in brainy's
> boxes she had NOT taken skydiving
> lessons and had no life saving
> device such as a bungee cord since
> the parachute would not open at
> that limited distance from the ground....
>
The difference in pressure between 300 feet and sea level is
negligible. The worst that could happen is maybe some pressure
in the sinus cavity, if even that. And there certainly would be
almost no windshear. There is no way that the fall could
possibly lead to her death, except from a heart attack brought on
by shock. Since she was unconscious at the time, that would not
happen. As someone stated earlier, it is not the fall that
kills, it is the sudden stop at the end.
--
My name is not misspelled.
Flash Forever
Regardless of exactly *how* Gwen died, she did die and, according to the
intro in 100 Greatest Marvels, it was John Romita Sr. (who'd been
drawing consistently since ASM #39) who initially suggested the idea to
Gerry Conway as a way to "resolve the relationship."
Conway apparently thought it was a good idea as his philosophy
concerning the Spider-Man character didn't equate with the
Gwen-Peter-Spider-Man dynamic.
As he reportedly explained at the time, "She and Peter are terrific
together and make each other happy. But that's not what Spider-Man is
about. It's about pain and power and the responsibility that comes with
it. There's nowhere to take the relationship without betraying what
Spider-Man is all about."
As the intro also states, the death of Gwen Stacy played well into the
tradition of loss in Peter's life, well-established by Stan Lee in the
early run of the series. Gerry Conway was apparently still heavily
influenced by Lee's writing style at the time he wrote "The death of
Gwen Stacy."
Again, from the 100 Marvels intro, "While Peter Parker dealt with the
death of Uncle Ben, something eh blamed himself for, Gwen also contended
with the death of her father, Captain Stacy and blamed the web-slinger
for it. They loved each other but it was never easy as Peter tried to
keep his alter ego away from the woman he loved. As seen in (The death
of Gwen Stacy) that was not to be."
The conclusion to the storyline took place in ASM #19, "The Goblin's
Last Stand." It ranked as #19 in Marvel's 100 Greatest. There's some
further insight into the decision to kill Gwen in the Marvel 100 intro
to that tale:
"Part one of this story shocked an unsuspecting comics fandom and
everyone counted the days until the conclusion arrived. Death was still
relatively rare in those early 1970s; the frequent deaths and
resurrections that have since become commonplace did not yet jade the
reading public. It was also in the days when story points could be kept
a secret since fanzines repored what they were told and the freelancers
of the day weren't out to seek personal glory or overpromote a project.
Readers knew from the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #121 that someone was
destined to die, and since a key supporting figure, Captain Stacy, did
perish less than two years previous, this wasn't mere Marvel hype."
The intro continues, " Peter's supporting cast had grown over the years
so people came and left, bet at this point, he was pretty tight with his
roommate Harry Osborn, and there was also Mary Jane Watson, perpetual
party girl. Flash Thompson had started to mature a bit but was destined
for the Viet Nam war. Interestingly, even though the action changed from
high school to a Manhattan college, there were not many new players
introduced into that setting. At the Bugle, Peter continued to deal with
J. Jonah Jameson, but Robbie Robertson was a fixture by now and some of
the reporers lingered for issues at a time. Which meant, of course, that
when someone had to die, readers couldn't guess which one it would be.
With even Aunt May on the brink of death more than once, she was a prime
supect, but students of good fiction would know that Peter would need
that constant reminder of his obligations."
Flash Forever
amongst the all-time greats):
"Readers couldn't believe that someone as fun-loving as Gwen could die
but writer Gerry Conway felt it was necessary to move the main character
forward. Peter couldn't enjoy sustained happiness; his was to be a life
filled with momentary pleasures and lingering pain. And there was no
pain worse than that inflicted by the Goblin..."
"Conway needed a resolution that would be true to the series he had
inherited from Stan Lee and Roy Thomas, but also would end this chapter
of the young man's life. As seen (in ASM #122), he found a sense of
poetic justice for the Goblin but more importantly, opened a new chapter
as seen in the very last panel (depticting Peter Parker with Mary Jane
Watson)."
In an interesting editorial continuity slip, there's no mention of the
cold that had so handicaped Spidey in the previous issue. There's also a
topical reference in 122 which dates the story, when Spidey tosses a
line the way of JJJ, "Well, if it isn't Mr. Charisma, 1973!"
As anyone who has read the ish already knows, Spidey pounds the Golblin
within an inch of his life and stops just short of klling him. The
Goblin's ironic death is instead brought about when his own sky-cycle
veers out of contro and accidentally stabs him through the chest.
As the line from the comic states, "And so the proud men die: crucified,
not on a cross of gold--but on a stake of humble tin."
That we're still discussing these issues today is evidence enough of
their lasting impact and it seems that the same editorial philosophy
concerning Spider-Man held by both Lee and Conway has recently
re-surfaced in the pages of the Spider-Man comics.
ANIM8Rfsk
but writer Gerry Conway felt it was necessary >>
Because Conway's a hack. He specializes in
deaths-because-he-couldn't-think-of-anything-else and reboots. His
astonishingly bad 'Thor' episodes of Hercules TLJ were yet another rehash of
his two tired tricks.
ANIM8Rfsk
that great of a level of experience. For example, first time
jumpers would not have that sort of insight and skill. So why
don't they die from shock? >>
They don't. There is NOTHING in the fall to kill you. The pressure
differences won't do a thing.
ANIM8Rfsk
trained to shift their bodies to
adjust themselves so the wind
sheer doesn't kill them and
activate a parachute before they
hit the "unopenable" level >>
Um - nonsense. People survive first jumps, they survive bungee jumps, there's
no problem from wind sheer. It's not like she fell from orbit.
<< Gwen was thrown off UNCONSCIOUS
about three hundred feet >>
And so the fall would have NO EFFECT on her at all. The stop at the bottom
would, sure, but not the fall.
ANIM8Rfsk
would have decided to add a SNAP, just for the heck of it. >>
Conway's stories on the topic are suspect at best. I had the pleasure of
having breakfast with Stan Lee at a convention in the early 70s. Somebody
asked about Gwen. Lee said he was as shocked as we were, the first he heard of
it was when he read it in the comic (he was based in CA by then). Somebody
pulled out an interview with Conway all about how he'd discussed it with Lee
and got his permission. Thing is, this was the FIRST time Lee had heard that
story - at all. He was very diplomatic about it, but it was clear Conway's
account was a load of crap.
Michael
> Unknown wrote:
>
> > ANIM8Rfsk wrote (tongue firmly in cheek):
> >
> > >What? Then why do sky divers live?
> >
> > Because they are AWAKE and have been
> > trained to shift their bodies to
> > adjust themselves so the wind
> > sheer doesn't kill them and
> > activate a parachute before they
> > hit the "unopenable" level
> >
>
> I can't believe I'm answering this, but not all skydivers have
> that great of a level of experience. For example, first time
> jumpers would not have that sort of insight and skill. So why
> don't they die from shock?
<snip>
Because "you'll die from shock before you hit the ground" is BS.
Unfortunatly, it's more than likely you'll be wide awake, and know
exactly what's going on, all the way to the ground. Ugh, what a way to
go.
~Michael
Mark Wallace
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
You might sneeze.
That could be *very dangerous* if you were up a ladder cleaning
windows at the same time as you were falling off the bridge.
Just being as logical as the thread allows.
Who thinks Spidey killed her?
I say 'snap'.
IMO, It was a piss-poor story, anyway; not worth the attention it's
received.
--
Mark Wallace
____________________________
You want nanomachines?
I'll give you bloody nanomachines!
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/nmaj.htm
____________________________
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Doctor Charles.
You can trust him.
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/doc01.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Wallace
"Michael" <jitte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e9a6fbc9.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > I can't believe I'm answering this, but not all skydivers have
> > that great of a level of experience. For example, first time
> > jumpers would not have that sort of insight and skill. So why
> > don't they die from shock?
>
> Because "you'll die from shock before you hit the ground" is BS.
> Unfortunatly, it's more than likely you'll be wide awake, and know
> exactly what's going on, all the way to the ground. Ugh, what a
way to
> go.
"Ooh, what a pretty chrysanthemu---"
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Old Spice -- The Stupidest Story Ever Written
(and the second-best selling e-book in history)
The first volume is now FREE!
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/os/freebie.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
JVV4sm
of Gwen's death could include:
her slamming into the side of the bridge(the webbing hits her at an angle and
she swings into the bridge), or
only her head being caught by Peter's webbing and ripping off, or
Gwen exploding
I don't know why Gwen might explode but I think we could all agree that would
be the cause of death if she did.
Anthony Brookshire
Mark Wallace <mwallac...@noknok.nl> wrote in message
news:a2lj2p$11pcf1$1...@ID-51325.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Michael" <jitte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e9a6fbc9.02012...@posting.google.com...
> > Mathew Krull <mkr...@cfu.net> wrote in message
> news:<3C4DF010...@cfu.net>...
>
> > > I can't believe I'm answering this, but not all skydivers have
> > > that great of a level of experience. For example, first time
> > > jumpers would not have that sort of insight and skill. So why
> > > don't they die from shock?
> >
> > Because "you'll die from shock before you hit the ground" is BS.
> > Unfortunatly, it's more than likely you'll be wide awake, and know
> > exactly what's going on, all the way to the ground. Ugh, what a
> way to
> > go.
>
> "Ooh, what a pretty chrysanthemu---"
>
LOL
Sounds like something out of a Douglas Adams novel.
ANIM8Rfsk
That could be *very dangerous* if you were up a ladder cleaning
windows at the same time as you were falling off the bridge.
Just being as logical as the thread allows. >>
LOL!
<< IMO, It was a piss-poor story, anyway; not worth the attention it's
received. >>
Yep, just a badly written stunt.
ANIM8Rfsk
I don't know why Gwen might explode >>
Apparently 'pressure differences' :-D
Me, I still think the Goblin killed her before Peter ever got there. Of
course, I think the Goblin actually substituted a clone and the real girls out
there someplace, too . . . . .
:-)
Anthony Brookshire
ANIM8Rfsk <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
> << Gwen exploding
>
> I don't know why Gwen might explode >>
>
> Apparently 'pressure differences' :-D
Or bad potato salad. Gotta watch out for that stuff!
> Me, I still think the Goblin killed her before Peter ever got there. Of
> course, I think the Goblin actually substituted a clone and the real girls
out
> there someplace, too . . . . .
Hey, good story idea. Let's pitch it to Marvel!
ANIM8Rfsk
course, I think the Goblin actually substituted a clone and the real girls
out there someplace, too . . . . .
Hey, good story idea. Let's pitch it to Marvel! >>
Then Conway will have to come in and kill her AGAIN!!!!!! (he's done this like
3 times now hasn't he?)
Anthony Brookshire
ANIM8Rfsk <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
Sounds like a mutant to me. Regenerative powers. Could call the new title
Gwen X
Dave Doty
> I don't know why Gwen might explode but I think we could all agree that
> would be the cause of death if she did.
Unless she was already dead when she exploded.
On the subject of clones, hasn't it occurred to any of you that the Spider-
Man in this story was a clone, and that "Gwen" was actually the
cosmetically-altered real Spider-Man?
Dave Doty
Dwight Williams
after all. If he could drug her into unconsciousness...
--
Dwight Williams - Orleans(Ottawa), ON, Canada
Personal Homesite: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my Usenet postings, not some archival service!
ANIM8Rfsk
after all. If he could drug her into unconsciousness... >>
Normy had Gwen for hours. Substituting a clone is probably the least
despicable thing we can think of him doing in that time . . .
quimico
One might say she died and her body was found,
but that is just the point: Nobody, not even
spidey, can say whether she was alive when he
first saw her, in the Goblin's clutches, on
that rooftop. He couldn't say whether she was alive,
he couldn't say whether it was really Gwen. In fact, in
Marvel-U there are various examples of captured
girls being replaced by duplicates of her corpse.
Take, for instance, Storm (by the Nanny), and Kitty Pryde
(by the Morlocks). It would be much more believable than
what happened to aunt May, who was replace alive.
quimico
>Le 22/01/02 19:31, Jim Wilkerson a écrit :
>
>> but Conway was sure that he didn't write the effect in his finished story.
>> It was mentioned that perhaps the letterer may have added it.
>
>Didn't I read some story somewhere (yeah, I know: pinpoint accuracy, here.
>Maybe a COMIC ARTIST issue covering that topic?) where the editor (was that
>Thomas?) thought the broken neck was too graphic and had the death by shock
>explanation inserted?
The SNAP clashes definitely with GG's speech that followed.
If that was Gwen, then GG had NO reason to formulate that "explanation"
of her death.
quimico
.
>
>Who thinks Spidey killed her?
>I say 'snap'.
Then WHY did GG came with that little speech afterwards?
That is, if he is lying, then why?
>IMO, It was a piss-poor story, anyway; not worth the attention it's
>received.
Agreed on both counts, except for the character they killed.
Dave Doty
killed her ON PURPOSE? Then pretended to be sad to shift blame. After
all, we don't see Peter at the moment the web line connected. He could
have given it a really sharp tug.
Dave Doty
Unknown
>I can't believe I'm answering this, but
>not all skydivers have that great of
>a level of experience.
That's true. In the three jumps that
I have done I have always HAD to
jump piggyback with a skilled
professional literally on my back
whow is to take control in case
my inexperience proves to be life
threatening.
I have the option to jump bird (solo)
next time I jump but STILL have to jump
with an "experienced" jumper.
>For example, first time jumpers would
>not have that sort of insight and
>skill. So why don't they die from shock?
Just answered. Hatchlings do NOT jump
without a trained professional riding
IF you are NOT taking US Army ranger training
or taking jumping lessons with a LICENSED
outfit.
>There is no way that the fall could
>possibly lead to her death,
There have been stunt men and women
who even when landing on air bags
(admittedly from higher than say
300 feet!) have suffered head trauma
and been rendered unconscious and
in a few cases killed and not because
of heart failure (shock), despite
many doing this action on a regular
basis.
Besides we are discussing a fantasy
story so you can argue that it could
be any thing that Conway wanted it
to be...
Flash Forever
BTW, I'm not as up on my modern-day Spider-Man continuity as I ought to
be...did the original Goblin *stay* dead?
I don't recall the evolution of the character following Osborn's death,
but I'm thinking maybe his son became the Goblin? Also, there was a
*Hob*goblin as well, right? Same character or different?
Flash Forever
It was the pumpkin bomb, I tell ya...the pumpkin bomb!! (Those things
are *very* dangerous...)
ANIM8Rfsk
who even when landing on air bags
(admittedly from higher than say
300 feet!) have suffered head trauma >>
So? They didn't get head trauma from the air.
*******
QWest Arizona service has deteriorated to the point where criminal action
should be taken against the company officers
ANIM8Rfsk
be...did the original Goblin *stay* dead? >>
No.
Sad to say.
And they pinned the whole 'clone saga' on him, too.
Anthony Brookshire
Flash Forever <flashf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23342-3C...@storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Osborne didn't really die. He just went to EuroDisney while he plotted his
revenge. Hobgoblin was someone else who stumbled upon the goblin gear.
You know, for a couple of smart cookies, the Osbornes never seemed to hide
their Goblin stuff very well.
Anthony Brookshire
quimico <qui...@fortalnet.com.br> wrote in message
news:3c4f1a43...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Other than poor writing, of course.
Anthony Brookshire
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:48:38 +0100, "Mark Wallace"
<mwallac...@noknok.nl> wrote:
>
> .
> >
> >Who thinks Spidey killed her?
> >I say 'snap'.
>
> Then WHY did GG came with that little speech afterwards?
> That is, if he is lying, then why?
Cuz he was insaaaaane!! Insane people don't know why people die!
Craaaazy, I tell ya!
Marc-Oliver Frisch
Flash Forever wrote:
Norman Osborn, the original Green Goblin, "died" in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN
#122. However, a quarter century later in AMAZING #418, he officially
returned, and it was "revealed" that he'd been the mastermind behind the
entire Clone Saga.
While Norman was believed to be dead, his son Harry, Peter Parker's best
friend, first turned into a drug addict and became the second Green Goblin
in AMAZING #136. He then was "cured" and lived a normal life, until he went
insane and took on the Goblin role again, circa SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN
#178, 1992. In SPECTACULAR #200, the conflict between Peter/ Spider-Man and
Harry/ the Green Goblin came to a conclusion in a fight in hich Harry
accidently died.
Some time after Harry's initial appearance as the Green Goblin, he went to
see a shrink called Dr. Bart Hamilton. Around AMAZING #180, it turned out
that Hamilton had used Harry in order to become the third Green Goblin
himself, and he subsequently tried to take over New York City's crime
scene. The attempt failed, and Hamilton accidently died in the final fight
with Spidey.
Some years after Harry Osborn's death, Phil Urich, nephew of Bugle reporter
Ben Urich, found one of the Green Goblin's hideouts, created a new costume
for himself, and used the Goblin's equipment to become the fourth Goblin--
but this time, as a superhero, starring in his own GREEN GOBLIN series. A
year into the series, however, Phil's equipment was thrashed by a Sentinel
(in an "Onslaught" crossover), and he retired.
The fifth and final Green Goblin was a henchman in the service of Norman
Osborn, who first appeared some time after Norman's "return from the dead".
His identity was ultimately revealed (in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN vol. 2 #18, I
think), but the story (and the ID) were in fact so lame that I can't for my
life remember who it was without looking it up... Sorry.
On to the Hobgoblin.
The initial Hobgoblin, unrelated to the Osborns, first appeared in AMAZING
#238, where he found one of Norman's hideouts and created the Hobgoblin ID.
After years of having his true identity shrouded in mystery, and after the
writer who had created the Hobgoblin mystery had left the book, the
Hobgoblin apparently died in SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE #1, and it was
revealed that he had been Ned Leeds, a Bugle reporter.
In the same issue (#289), a second Hobgoblin appeared: Jason P. Macendale,
Jr., alias the Jack O'Lantern, a mercenary and an old adversary of Machine
Man's. During "Inferno", Macendale met the demon N'astirh and offered his
soul for power. N'astirh accepted, and Macendale received the powers of a
demon. Some time later, the demonic side was separated from him, however,
and became an entity on its own, known as the Demogoblin.
While I don't remember what ultimately happened to Demogoblin, Macendale's
reign as the Hobgoblin soon ended, as writer Roger Stern, the creator of
the original Hobgoblin, returned with the limited series SPIDER-MAN:
HOBGOBLIN LIVES. Since Stern had not at all intended the Hobgoblin to be
Ned Leeds when he had created him, this series revealed that Ned Leeds had
merely been an impostor, a puppet brainwashed by the *real* Hobgoblin.
It turned out that the original Hobgoblin was a corrupt businessman named
Roderick Kingsley, who now returned, killed his "successor" Macendale in
prison, and officially re-entered Spidey's rogues gallery as the true
Hobgoblin. To my knowledge, he hasn't been seen since the "Goblin's At The
Gate" storyline which appeared in the final issues of the SPECTACULAR
SPIDER-MAN series, shortly before the Mackie/ Byrne revamp occurred.
-- M.O.
Mathew Krull
> Mathew Krull <mkr...@cfu.net> wrote:
>
> >I can't believe I'm answering this, but
> >not all skydivers have that great of
> >a level of experience.
> That's true. In the three jumps that
> I have done I have always HAD to
> jump piggyback with a skilled
> professional literally on my back
> whow is to take control in case
> my inexperience proves to be life
> threatening.
>
> I have the option to jump bird (solo)
> next time I jump but STILL have to jump
> with an "experienced" jumper.
>
> >For example, first time jumpers would
> >not have that sort of insight and
> >skill. So why don't they die from shock?
> Just answered. Hatchlings do NOT jump
> without a trained professional riding
> IF you are NOT taking US Army ranger training
> or taking jumping lessons with a LICENSED
> outfit.
>
Then why is it we have any trained professionals to teach you to
jump. Somebody had to be the first person to ever jump out of a
plane with a parachute on his back. By your logic, he should
have died. He would not be able to pass on his skill and
experience in this state.
Your beginning to sound like the people who claimed trains would
kill passengers because the human body could not withstand the
rigors and stress of moving 60 miles an hour.
>
> >There is no way that the fall could
> >possibly lead to her death,
> There have been stunt men and women
> who even when landing on air bags
> (admittedly from higher than say
> 300 feet!) have suffered head trauma
> and been rendered unconscious and
> in a few cases killed and not because
> of heart failure (shock), despite
> many doing this action on a regular
> basis.
>
And I will guarantee that it was not the fall that injured or
killed them, but the impact at the end.
--
My name is not misspelled.
Flash Forever
Thanks for the run down on the Spidey / Goblin history. All of this
Spidey talk has reawakened my interest in Spider-Man. Maybe I'll check
out one of the current monthly Spidey comics. I collected some various
Spidey series in the past, but that was waaaay back when.
I'm still not entirely clear on the Clone Saga thing though. There was a
clone of Spider-Man? (Could *he* do everything a Spider can?--sorry,
couldn't resist.) And the long-presumed dead original Green Goblin was
behind the whole thing? Hmmmm...that's a little on the
"bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!" side, isn't it?
I'm sure the upcoming Spider-Man movie will awaken and re-awaken
interest in the comics, at least for a time. I applaud Marvel's efforts
to make comics more accessible to new and returning readers, but it
sounds as if the Clone Saga ret-con (if indeed it was a ret-con) didn't
sit very well with long-time Spidey fans.
On the subject of Gwen, I know the Ultimate line takes place in an
alternate continuity--I wonder is she will show up there? And, if so, is
she destined to die there as well?
Mark Wallace
<mwallac...@noknok.nl> wrote:
>
> >Who thinks Spidey killed her?
> >I say 'snap'.
>
> Then WHY did GG came with that little speech afterwards?
> That is, if he is lying, then why?
Um. See below.
> >IMO, It was a piss-poor story, anyway; not worth the attention
it's
> >received.
>
> Agreed on both counts, except for the character they killed.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Old Spice -- The Stupidest Story Ever Written
(and the second-best selling e-book in history)
The first volume is now FREE!
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/os/freebie.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
Mark Wallace
"Unknown" <psi...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.020123...@amanda.dorsai.org...
> Mathew Krull <mkr...@cfu.net> wrote:
>
> >I can't believe I'm answering this, but
> >not all skydivers have that great of
> >a level of experience.
> That's true. In the three jumps that
> I have done I have always HAD to
> jump piggyback with a skilled
> professional literally on my back
> whow is to take control in case
> my inexperience proves to be life
> threatening.
Are you trying to tell me that they think you have time, whilst
you're plummeting down through the air toward jagged rocks, cacti,
and carelessly discarded roller skates at 27ft/s/s, you have time to
threaten people?
I'd be too busy pissing myself.
You shouldn't be allowed to take a cellphone with you, anyway.
--
Mark Wallace
-----------------------------------------------------
Doctor Charles.
You can trust him.
http://humorpages.virtualave.net/m-pages/doc01.htm
-----------------------------------------------------
quimico
>Osborne didn't really die. He just went to EuroDisney while he plotted his
>revenge. Hobgoblin was someone else who stumbled upon the goblin gear.
>
>You know, for a couple of smart cookies, the Osbornes never seemed to hide
>their Goblin stuff very well.
Perhaps that was their subconscious guilt - They WANTED their gear
to be discovered... only unconsciously.
Marc-Oliver Frisch
Flash Forever wrote:
> I'm still not entirely clear on the Clone Saga thing though. There was a
> clone of Spider-Man?
Yes.
> (Could *he* do everything a Spider can?--sorry,
> couldn't resist.) And the long-presumed dead original Green Goblin was
> behind the whole thing? Hmmmm...that's a little on the
> "bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!" side, isn't it?
>
That's correct, primarily because they basically needed two years worth of
five ongoing Spider-Man titles to wrap the storyline up for better or worse
and decide who the mastermind behind it all was. By the time it was finally
going to be over, they needed somebody of Norman's caliber in order to bring
the whole thing to a halfway "satisfying" conclusion.
>
> I'm sure the upcoming Spider-Man movie will awaken and re-awaken
> interest in the comics, at least for a time. I applaud Marvel's efforts
> to make comics more accessible to new and returning readers, but it
> sounds as if the Clone Saga ret-con (if indeed it was a ret-con) didn't
> sit very well with long-time Spidey fans.
>
I personally think it was a rather stupid idea to bring the clone back in
the first place. Once the storyline had been started, there were some really
awful stories, a lot of mediocre ones, and even some pretty good ones
involved.
Though there is a vocal group of fans who want the Ben Reilly clone to
return, I think it's safe to say that the majority of fandom wouldn't shed a
tear if the Clone Saga was never tobe referred to again.
>
> On the subject of Gwen, I know the Ultimate line takes place in an
> alternate continuity--I wonder is she will show up there? And, if so, is
> she destined to die there as well?
Ultimate Gwen has already shown up in recent issues.
-- M.O.
ANIM8Rfsk
kill passengers because the human body could not withstand the
rigors and stress of moving 60 miles an hour. >>
LOL! Terminal velocity for a skydiver is like, what, 125 mph? You can stick
your head out a car window at that speed. Get buffetted, hope a big bug
doesn't come along, but you're not gonna die from wind sheer. And pressure
differences? From the height of a 30 story building? People would have to be
unloaded with pitchforks from express elevators if that was deadly. And ALL
those new thrill rides would be one time attractions.
Josh Dull
> BTW, I'm not as up on my modern-day Spider-Man continuity as I
ought to
> be...did the original Goblin *stay* dead?
No. Like a bad penny, or old dried up gum on the sole of your
shoe,
you can never be rid of him.
In one of the all time great "What the...!?" moments Marvel
thought it would
be a good idea to end the 'Clone Saga' with Norman Osborn being
the man
behind it. Which is a really big leap in logic since up to this
point The Jackal
was the man behind the whole magilla but I digress.
Turns out Norman had a healing factor. A byproduct of his
strength-enhancing
formula which thankfully burned out from the strain of reparing
his heart. That's
why Norman's chest has one nasty scar covering it.
So anyway, he wakes up in the morgue and stumbles around until he
miraculously
finds a bum that looked just like him (Maybe his long lost
brother who used to work
at the nuclear power plant?). So he kills the guy and flees to
Europe. Since he was
considered dead and had no cash he snuck aboard. In Europe he
stumbled across
The Scrier's (aren't all the coincidences convient?) who allowed
him to join. Soon
Norman became their grand pooba and used their money to set
himself up in
luxury. The he began his grand scheme of revenge! He sent a
Scrier to help
Prof. Warren perfect his cloning techniques. Warren then began
the orignal
clone saga. As Peter was dumping the clone's body in a
smokestack, Norman
had a second clone made. This clone thought he was the clone who
died. Believing
himself to have climbed from the smokestack and move west,
adopting the guise
of Ben Reilly.
>Also, there was a
> *Hob*goblin as well, right? Same character or different?
Different character. Actually three or four characters. Maybe
more.
Their was the orignal, who had super-human strength.
Ned Leeds who didn't have super-strength but the entire world
believed he was the original. Including Ned himself. Ned was
killed
quite easily by agents of the man who would become the third
Hobgoblin. This man was killed many years later by the orignal
Hobgoblin who has since gone into retirement.
Essentially he was similar to the Green Goblin, with the
exception of
a different color-scheme for his costume and he was trying to
take
over the underworld.
Josh
Unknown
>I'm still not entirely clear on the
>Clone Saga thing though. There was a
>clone of Spider-Man? (Could *he* do
>everything a Spider can?--sorry,
>couldn't resist.)
There were three primary clones--
the original clone who died in
Amazing Spiderman 149;
Ben Rielly a "perfected" clone
who later became Peter's brother
and for a short time replaced
him as Spiderman II. He renamed
himself after his uncle Ben
and took his Aunt May's maiden
name of Reilly. He was an attempt
by the writers to return SPIDERMAN
not Peter back into the happy go
lucky as Peter had developed so
much darkness over the interveneing
years such as being buried alive
and replaced by a mad Kraven,
losing Gwen, losing Aunt May twice
(she was tought dead back in Vol I
195 but just kidnapped by a retired
Mysterio etc etc
Unfortuantely people could NOT
accept the fact that Peter was
the clone as that somehow made
all of the intervening stories
illegitamate despite the fact
that this character still went
though all of problems and
achievements. In response to
all of the fanboy screams,
the writers said that Peter and
Ben were both clones and that
the skeleton of what was
thought to be the clone of 149
which was refound by Ben was
actually the real Peter (as
Warren clones all dissolved
into a puddle of organic
goo when they died) Needless
to say the opposition became
EVEN MORE vocal when that
happened. So after trying
LITERALLY everything even
writing Peter without powers
management recanted and
returned Peter to Spiderman
and killed Ben -- personally
that was OVERDONE and I liked
Ben as Spiderman when he had
Peter and MJ and the baby
as HIS family but that is
another matter altogether.
Kaine - a deteriorating clone of
parker who developed extensive
spider-powers -- his wall crawling
ability is so strong that he
can PULL down a building wall
by anchoring his feet on the
ground and pulling the wall DOWN
to him rather than pull himself
UP onto the wall, same with
his precognition sensability
instead of merely alerting him
to immediate danger around him
he could through focusing it
"see" the future (alternate
versions anyway) Kaine is
a warped sociopath who can
be overly protective of the
Parker clan when he wants to be.
Supposedly as a last tease on
this matter BEFORE it became
a handson issue Kaine was supposedly
able to rescue May from the
"nurse" who was seen taking a
bundle off to Europe...
This line IS used in the
SpiderGIRL storyline.
and Spider-cide a replacement
clone who unfortunately was a
genetically superadvanced
version of Peter Parker who
had super control of his biological
processes to the point that
he could reconstitute himself
if he was ripped apart as well
as other powers. Unfortuantely
he was designed with a DEFINITE
lack of moral character that was
in his genetic "father". Last
seen in the custody of the
Guardians at the Vault which is
where all REALLY dangerous super
powered criminals end up for safe
keeping.
Josh Dull
> On the subject of Gwen, I know the Ultimate line takes place in
an
> alternate continuity--I wonder is she will show up there? And,
if so, is
> she destined to die there as well?
Gwen has already popped up in ULTIMATE.
In this incarnation she comes across as a jaded, "old soul,
tough-as-nails, take no prisoners bad grrrl who gets in
trouble for pulling a knife on astudent in school.
As to her meeting her reward as her mainline counterpart did?
Maybe. Maybe not. But I have heard rumors that the Green
Goblin will return in ULTIMATE sometime around the time
the movie comes out.
So we'll just have to wait and see.
Josh
JARJR2
Well they're already made Norman responsible for the clone saga. I guess they
could say he created (another) clone of Gwen and that's who died. Then reveal
she's been off shagging Norman all these years and now they're raising baby
May. Oh then they can reveal Uncle Ben faked his death because he got tired of
May's wheatcakes and is now roommates with Doc Ock.
(ok I'm twisted)
Flash Forever
Sounds like "Attack of the Clones" has already been done. Sorry, George.
:)
Has the "clone saga" been collected in TPB form? It seems most people
seemed to hate it, but I'm developing a morbid curiosity about the whole
thing.
I shouldn't formulate too many opinions about something I haven't
actually read, but it sounds like there may have been some questionable
editorial decisions regarding Spidey.
So the "Ben" clone was actually a clone of Peter...
quimico
>
>>
>
>Well they're already made Norman responsible for the clone saga. I guess they
>could say he created (another) clone of Gwen
Clones are uneccessary in this case. The two cases I referred (the last post)
had corpses being duplicated without any cloning. If spidey had came near
enough, long enough, to hear Gwen's heartbeat (or its absence),
then there might be a need of something else. As he didn't,
Gwen has an enormous loophole to be brought back.
As I suggested elsewhere, she could be an interesting
way to send the reader's point of view bqack in time, comparing the
transformations and convolutions Spidey's cast has suffered since
she supposedly "died".
ANIM8Rfsk
they
could say he created (another) clone of Gwen and that's who died. Then reveal
she's been off shagging Norman all these years and now they're raising baby
(ok I'm twisted) >>
They sorta already did this with the Jackal in place of Norman - yuck.
Anthony Brookshire
>
> Thanks for the run down on the Spidey / Goblin history. All of this
> Spidey talk has reawakened my interest in Spider-Man. Maybe I'll check
> out one of the current monthly Spidey comics. I collected some various
> Spidey series in the past, but that was waaaay back when.
>
> I'm still not entirely clear on the Clone Saga thing though. There was a
> clone of Spider-Man? (Could *he* do everything a Spider can?--sorry,
> couldn't resist.) And the long-presumed dead original Green Goblin was
> behind the whole thing? Hmmmm...that's a little on the
> "bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!" side, isn't it?
>
Check out the Life of Reilly column at www.grayhavenmagazine.com.
A complete synopsis of the entire storyline, as well as the behind the
scenes story of how the whole saga got so out of hand. Pretty interesting
read.
Isaac
>
>The SNAP clashes definitely with GG's speech that followed.
>If that was Gwen, then GG had NO reason to formulate that "explanation"
>of her death.
>
But the speech makes no sense. At best the speech suggests that Gwen wasn't
dead when GG threw her, but his statement that long falls kill people before
they hit the ground was pure nonsense. There couldn't be a heart failure
from shock because Gwen was unconscious, and there is no guarantee that a
healthy person would die that way even if they were conscious. People free
fall all the time for much longer distances without dying.
Isaac
quimico
I think the only way to iterpret the speech is to into account that GG is not
rational. Nonetheless, he had motivations - motivations that led him to "explain"
Gwen's death. He could be very well HIDING the fact that what Pete took to be Gwen
(and tried to save) was already a corpse.
That was an imbedded loophole the writers put there, just in case the readers
complained too much.
If there had been too much reaction against Gwen's death, it would be revealed
that the body wasn't Gwen's, but some corpse stolen by Norman and turned into
a Gwen double (either by him or by hired help like the Fixer).
ANIM8Rfsk
not
rational. Nonetheless, he had motivations - motivations that led him to
"explain"
Gwen's death. He could be very well HIDING the fact that what Pete took to be
Gwen
(and tried to save) was already a corpse. >>
Of course 'HA HA HA, YOU'VE KILLED HER TRYING TO SAVE HER YOU FOOL' would have
been a much more effective taunt that 'Don't worry Pete, she was dead already,
not your fault' :-D
Anthony Brookshire
ANIM8Rfsk <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20020127121420...@mb-fi.aol.com...
> << I think the only way to iterpret the speech is to into account that GG
is
> not
> rational. Nonetheless, he had motivations - motivations that led him to
> "explain"
> Gwen's death. He could be very well HIDING the fact that what Pete took to
be
> Gwen
> (and tried to save) was already a corpse. >>
>
> Of course 'HA HA HA, YOU'VE KILLED HER TRYING TO SAVE HER YOU FOOL' would
have
> been a much more effective taunt that 'Don't worry Pete, she was dead
already,
> not your fault' :-D
You know, you're right. That WAS awful sweet of Norman to try to save
Pete's feelings like that! What a softie, that Normie.
Flash Forever
So what type of letters *did* pop up in the Spidey letter columns
following Gwen's death? What was the reaction at the time of the story?
Anthony Brookshire
>
> So what type of letters *did* pop up in the Spidey letter columns
> following Gwen's death? What was the reaction at the time of the story?
>
"Noooooo!!!!!! You can't have killled off Gwen! I'm never buying your
magazine again!! How dare you??" would be my guess. Followed by "That was
the most beautifully heart-wrenching story I have ever read! Bravo,
Marvel!"
Richard
"Flash Forever" <flashf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22697-3C5...@storefull-611.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>
> following Gwen's death? What was the reaction at the time of the story?
>
I recall one letter they published talking about how the story captured
the
supposed hell that was 1973 America. While the letter writer was probably
laying things on a little thick, it certainly was a cynical time- the
Vietnam
war was just ending, Watergate was brewing, and the activist, idealistic
youth counterculture that developed in the '60's had collapsed under the
weight of cold hard reality. In that context, it was only fitting that
Spider-man himself suffer a heartbreaking loss of innocence, or so
the guy who wrote the letter thought.
Richard
THE BISHOP
that appeared a few issues later, which I rediscovered while writing an
article on the Gwen Stacy story for COMIC BOOK MARKETPLACE. For years,
comic fans and professionals alike - including all of those involved in
making that story! - insisted that they didn't know who put the "SNAP!"
there and that the interpretation that Peter actually killer Gewn by
snapping her neck when the web line went taut was shaky at best. But in
that letter (if I remember correctly it was in #124 or #125) stated
categorically that they deliberately intended the "SNAP!" to indicate
that Spider-Man himself killer her in the attempt to save her life. The
idea, according to them, was to drive home the point that her death was
inescapable. If he let her fall, she would have died; if he tried to
save her, she would have died.
And why did they say that she "had to die?" Basically it was either that
or marry them off, and according to these oh so clever powers that be,
they clearly couldn't do that. Interesting how they believed that a
female character had only two options: marriage or death. It's a
sickening letter to read, check it out for yourself.
Arnold
Sanctify
issue on just this topic in issue 1277. They spoke to everyone who was
still alive at that stage in an attempt to get to the bottom of the mystery,
Stan Lee didn';t remember anything (as to be expected), Roy Thomas said that
John Romita and Gerry Conway did it with the permission of Stan, Gil Kane
said it was just another job, John Romita wanted to shake things up but
can't remember adding the "Snap!" nor can he recall if it was on the page
that he inked, but said that Conway was in charge of adding sound effects
and probably added it in after he got the pages back for scripting. I won't
bore the world with the entire article but the conclusions were as such:
Gerry Conway killed Gwen Stacey but at John Romita's request.
Whereas Romita believed it was done to shake readers out of their
complacency, Conway maintains he did it because he never cared for Gwen and
wanted to make Mary Jane Peter's love interest.
Conway added the "Snap!".
There's more, but I suggest that you find a copy of the magazine in question
and have a damn good read. Didn't care much for PAD's take on the whole
thing tho in his BID column. All in all though worth the few cents that
you'd probably pay for the mag in a back issue bin.
"THE BISHOP" <theb...@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:3C564AB7...@geocities.com...
ANIM8Rfsk
issue on just this topic in issue 1277. >>
Hadn't been mentioned, thanks for the excellent input.
<< Conway maintains he did it because he never cared for Gwen and
wanted to make Mary Jane Peter's love interest.
Conway added the "Snap!". >>
Sorta goes to the 'Conway's a hack that couldn't write his way out of a pay
toilet* and couldn't think of anything else to write so he kiled good
characters' theory we'd reached here.
*apologies to Harlan Ellison
THE BISHOP
examination of that situation, and not once did they ever bring up the
editorial I spoke of as the "smoking gun" I maintain it was to
demonstrate the knowledge of the creative team at the time. Everyone
claimed to have murky memories of the decision and the "SNAP" when both
were clearly explained as a deliberate act on the part of the powers
that be in that editorial. I always felt that trumped the supposedly
exhaustive investigation. Even Fred Hembeck, who provided a companion
strip on the topic in that issue, commented that never once after the
appearance of the "SNAP" did anyone at Marvel discuss the reason for the
snap or if the implication that Peter killed her was a fact or not. But
look at that editorial again, and you see that only two or three months
later, they were admitting to readers that the "SNAP" indicated
precisely that - Peter killed Gwen.
Sorry, I'll step off the soapbox now :).
Arnold
Sanctify
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
> << Buggered if I know if it's already been mentioned but CBG did an
excellent
> issue on just this topic in issue 1277. >>
>
> Hadn't been mentioned, thanks for the excellent input.
>
> << Conway maintains he did it because he never cared for Gwen and
> wanted to make Mary Jane Peter's love interest.
> Conway added the "Snap!". >>
>
> Sorta goes to the 'Conway's a hack that couldn't write his way out of a
pay
> toilet* and couldn't think of anything else to write so he kiled good
> characters' theory we'd reached here.
>
> *apologies to Harlan Ellison
Well possibly, but then John Romita, if you go on what the CBG says, had the
intial idea of killing Gwen off. It skirts around the issue a bit but the
feeling I was left with was pretty much that JR wanted Mary Jane, one of his
creations at least visually, as the main love interest over Gwen, one of
Ditko's creations, at least visually and possibly more. But then that opens
that can of worms along the lines of JR wanting to remove Ditkos mainstays
from the Spidey canon, which we all know is bs. Personally I think that JR
had the indea, suggested it to Conway, they both went to Thomas and Stan and
went from there.
When I first read the issue it hit home very hard - it was the first time
I'd ever seen a major character killed off in a comic book and it's impact
was fairly stunning. These days when they kill anyone off I know it's just
for a little while or a plot device by a hack writer on a par with Mackie,
but I've not ever thought of Conway as a hack.
ANIM8Rfsk
had the indea, suggested it to Conway, they both went to Thomas and Stan and
went from there. >>
As I posted earlier, Stan Lee denied that version of events to me and several
others in person at a convention breakfast shortly afterwords. He said the
first he heard of it was when he saw the comic.
Landru99
others in person at a convention breakfast shortly afterwords. He said the
first he heard of it was when he saw the comic.>>
This seems unlikely, as Stan was Marvel's Editor-In-Chief at the time this ish
was published. How can he have been unaware of such an important story? This
would be comparable to Joe Quesada claiming he was unaware of the recent Spidey
WTC issue until it was published.
Also, the OFFICIAL MARVEL INDEX TO THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (published by Marvel
in the 80s) has Stan listed as "plot consultant" for both issues # 121 & 122.
THE BISHOP
important and emotionally moving that story has been to so many fans
over the years, how everyone involved in its creation refuses to take
any credit for any significant part of it. There seems to be such
lasting fear or at least trepidation about claiming responsibility that
you'd think they conspired to murder a real person.
Arnold
KurtBusiek
important and emotionally moving that story has been to so many fans
over the years, how everyone involved in its creation refuses to take
any credit for any significant part of it.>>
John Romita says flatly it was his idea. Gerry says it was John's idea, and he
developed it. Both say Stan okayed it beforehand.
So absent Gil Kane, who from all accounts just drew the story without having
plot input, the only person who "refuses to take any significant credit" for it
is Stan.
kdb
POWER COMPANY Preview Site:
http://www.dccomics.com/features/powerco/powerco.html
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http://www.comicboards.com/powercompany/
richard
"Landru99" <land...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020130021557...@mb-mc.aol.com...
> <<As I posted earlier, Stan Lee denied that version of events to me and
several
> others in person at a convention breakfast shortly afterwords. He said
the
> first he heard of it was when he saw the comic.>>
>
> This seems unlikely, as Stan was Marvel's Editor-In-Chief at the time this
ish
> was published. How can he have been unaware of such an important story?
This
> would be comparable to Joe Quesada claiming he was unaware of the recent
Spidey
> WTC issue until it was published.
Stan had already become publisher when the story appeared.
Roy Thomas was the editor-in-chief in 1973, and was credited
as being the editor for that story.
Another thing regarding Stan Lee is that he has a notoriously
bad memory. This is the guy who had the Hulk refer to his
alter-ego as "Bob" Banner during a guest appearance in the
FF. He has also told contradictory stories regarding why
Steve Ditko left Marvel.
Richard
Uli Kusterer
> Another thing regarding Stan Lee is that he has a notoriously
> bad memory. This is the guy who had the Hulk refer to his
> alter-ego as "Bob" Banner during a guest appearance in the
> FF. He has also told contradictory stories regarding why
> Steve Ditko left Marvel.
But Banner's name is "Robert Bruce Banner", isn't it? Or is that
something introduced after the fact?
-- M. Uli Kusterer
(I do not wish to receive spam or unsolicited commercial e-mail)
John C. Baker
witness_...@t-online.de (Uli Kusterer) wrote:
> > Another thing regarding Stan Lee is that he has a notoriously
> > bad memory. This is the guy who had the Hulk refer to his
> > alter-ego as "Bob" Banner during a guest appearance in the
> > FF. He has also told contradictory stories regarding why
> > Steve Ditko left Marvel.
>
> But Banner's name is "Robert Bruce Banner", isn't it? Or is that
> something introduced after the fact?
IIRC, that was the early retcon devised to cover the error.
Landru99
the editor-in-chief in 1973, and was credited as being the editor for that
story.>>
Roy Thomas was only credited as editor of that issue of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN,
there's nothing in the credits to indicate Thomas was Editor-In-Chief of the
entire Marvel line.
Also, even if Stan technically was not Editor-In-Chief of Marvel at the time,
in Gerry Conway's intoduction to the SPIDER-MAN: CLONE GENESIS Trade Paperback,
he says Stan gave his full consent and support to go ahead with the "Death of
Gwen Stacy" storyline.
Sanctify
"KurtBusiek" <kurtb...@aol.comics> wrote in message
news:20020130124137...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> >>It really is amazing, particularly in light of how historically
> important and emotionally moving that story has been to so many fans
> over the years, how everyone involved in its creation refuses to take
> any credit for any significant part of it.>>
>
> John Romita says flatly it was his idea. Gerry says it was John's idea,
and he
> developed it. Both say Stan okayed it beforehand.
>
> So absent Gil Kane, who from all accounts just drew the story without
having
> plot input, the only person who "refuses to take any significant credit"
for it
> is Stan.
Which, pretty much, is what conclusion the CBG article came to......beats me
now, but I can't believe that Stan knew nothing about it at the time, but
then he has a tendancy to recall certain events of importance and forget
others of equal importance.
>But again, that particular CBG presented a supposedly "exhaustive"
examination of that situation, and not once >did they ever bring up the
editorial I spoke of as the "smoking gun" I maintain it was to demonstrate
the >knowledge of the creative team at the time. Everyone claimed to have
murky memories of the decision and the >"SNAP" when both were clearly
explained as a deliberate act on the part of the powers that be in that
editorial. >I always felt that trumped the supposedly exhaustive
investigation. Even Fred Hembeck, who provided a >companion strip on the
topic in that issue, commented that never once after the appearance of the
"SNAP" did >anyone at Marvel discuss the reason for the snap or if the
implication that Peter killed her was a fact or not. But >look at that
editorial again, and you see that only two or three months later, they were
admitting to readers that >the "SNAP" indicated precisely that - Peter
killed Gwen.
>Sorry, I'll step off the soapbox now :).
>Arnold
I think Arnold, that you might have missed the whole crux of the article.
The way I read it it was more to do with which creator killed off Gwen, not
if Peter or GG did the deed. I doubt that the question of who did it in the
actual book (character wise) would ever be resolved - you can say that once
the web hit Gwen it snapped her neck and thus Peter killed her. The next
writer would then come in and say that the shock of the fall had killed her
before the webbing did (as GG says to Peter, IIRC, "Fool! She was already
dead before you caught her.") and yet someone else would weigh in that GG
throttled her before he threw her off, or poisoned her or whatever. Thus
it's always going to be in the hands of the writer at the time to decide as
to if she lives or dies.
ANIM8Rfsk
time, in Gerry Conway's intoduction to the SPIDER-MAN: CLONE GENESIS Trade
Paperback, he says Stan gave his full consent and support to go ahead with the
"Death of Gwen Stacy" storyline. >>
Yes, and Stan says that didn't happen. So it's who you choose to believe. Me,
I'll believe Stan, cause he said he didn't know in advance to me in person, and
that's the only first person account of it I've ever heard (or am likely to).
Besides, I like Stan Lee, and don't want to hold him responsible for this lousy
piece of storytelling. :-)
richard
> <<Stan had already become publisher when the story appeared. Roy Thomas
was
> the editor-in-chief in 1973, and was credited as being the editor for that
> story.>>
>
> Roy Thomas was only credited as editor of that issue of AMAZING
SPIDER-MAN,
> there's nothing in the credits to indicate Thomas was Editor-In-Chief of
the
> entire Marvel line.
Here is a segment of an interview with Roy Thomas where he discusses his
experiences
as editor-in-chief from 1972-1974 (ASM #121 is coverdated June 1973) :
http://www.heroesanddragons.com/NewsFeatures/Interviews/ThomasRoyPart4.htm
There are numerous sources, including of course the Bullpen Bulletins from
the
comics at the time (which I own a number of), that corroborate the fact that
Roy
took over in 1972.
>
> Also, even if Stan technically was not Editor-In-Chief of Marvel at the
time,
> in Gerry Conway's intoduction to the SPIDER-MAN: CLONE GENESIS Trade
Paperback,
> he says Stan gave his full consent and support to go ahead with the "Death
of
> Gwen Stacy" storyline.
Did I claim that he didn't give consent? I certainly did not. The comment
in
my post about Stan's bad memory was meant to suggest the possibility that
he may actually have given his consent, but that his later recollection
about the event was
in error. One possible scenario is that Lee, busy with his duties as
publisher,
may have given consent without paying close enough attention to what he
was being presented with to fully grasp the implications. Consent given
or not, something about the story rubbed Lee the wrong way. Bringing
back Gwen as a clone later on was a response to Lee's percieved unhappiness
about her death.
If it happened that way, if wouldn't be the only time that there was a
miscommunication occuring between Lee and his underlings. What comes to
mind is an incident regarding Iron Man around the same time. Lee made some
comment about his face plate being too flat for the character to have a
nose. In
response, Iron Man's face plate started being drawn with a nose. That lasted
for about
a year (we're talking '74-'75) until Lee noticed how the character was being
drawn
and had them change it back.
Richard
KurtBusiek
there's nothing in the credits to indicate Thomas was Editor-In-Chief of the
entire Marvel line.>>
Yes there is. At that time, Marvel didn't have an "Editor in Chief" -- they
had an editor of the whole line. When Roy was promoted to and credited as
Editor, that meant the whole line.
So the "Editor" credit indicates he was overseeing the whole line; that was the
purview of the job, up until Roy stepped down into the first "writer/editor"
deal. Even when, say, Marv was an Associate Editor, essentially editing the
b&w line solo, he reported to Roy.
I believe Jim Shooter was the first to be credited as editor-in-chief; until
then, the guy who had the job we now refer to as e-i-c was simply credited as
editor.