Who invented RECEIVED PRONUNCIATION?
SuperSlonik
I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation and when?
Is there any place in England with dialect which is closest to RP?
How actually English language in Britain was codified?
Best regards,
Su.Sl.
Paul Jaunay
my teacher told us that this "conventional" english british was correctly
pronounced by 2% of the population!!!
So, as a foreign speaker, i don't worry about it :p
bye ;)
"SuperSlonik" <cob...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message news:
25470594.02042...@posting.google.com...
Phil C.
news:ttjqcug069cdd4b4m...@4ax.com...
> On 29 Apr 2002 02:50:06 -0700, cob...@hotmail.com (SuperSlonik)
wrote:
>
> }I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation and
when?
>
>
> }Is there any place in England with dialect which is closest to RP?
>
>
> }How actually English language in Britain was codified?
>
Actually I think it's quite a complicated question. BBC pronunciation is
now very different from BBC pronunciation 50 years ago. The relationship
between RP, "BBC English", "Oxford English" "The Queen's English" and
"Public School English" is controversial. Some would see them as
synonymous. Others wouldn't. I think many would now see the old BBC
English as a rather inward-looking, artificial hyperlect trying to pass
itself off as "correct" English pronunciation - a tool by which entry to
such as as the BBC was restricted to those of the "right" background by
those of similar background. Broadcasters who still use that accent now
sound like fish out of water (or the Shadow Cabinet, which amounts to
the same thing.) The Queen has moderated her accent considerably.
RP was never formally created or enforced (unlike France or Italy). It
grew out of the middle class version of the London/South Eastern
dialect, no doubt aided by the increasing social mobility of the C19th
which led people to be concerned about talking and writing "correctly".
Hence the explosion in the popularity of grammars and dictionaries and
the increasing tendency for dialects to be despised and suppressed. Well
into the C19th, however, the upper classes were still talking with a
variety of regional accents. The catalyst for the creation of a distinct
and universal Public School accent seems to have been the 1874 Education
Act. Education was to be available to all so the upper/middle classes
and new rich needed other cultural badges to distinguish themselves from
those pushing up from below. An expensive education had to show itself
in the way you talked. In modern times I would say that "correct"
standard English pronunciation, such as foreigners learn at school, is
rather flatter and more muted than Public School English. Perhaps we
need a new colloquial term. Actor English? Newsreader English?
--
Phil C.
_______________________________
philandwoody"at"meem"dot"freeserve"dot"co"dot"uk
Dave Swindell
SuperSlonik <cob...@hotmail.com> writes
like it. It may be related to the language of the royal court, which
has had many odd influences over the last few centuries.
--
Dave OSOS#24 dswindel...@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies
Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one
Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one
Harvey V
wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2002 02:50:06 -0700, cob...@hotmail.com (SuperSlonik)
> wrote:
>
> }I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation
> and when?
>
> The BBC
>
> }Is there any place in England with dialect which is closest to
> RP?
>
> The BBC
>
> }How actually English language in Britain was codified?
>
> The BBC have always had a pronunciation department.
Ummm. But.....
The OED has the term quoted from 1818 in a US usage, and plenty of
usages in the 1800s.
In other words, both the concept and the term applied to it predate the
BBC -- the Beeb may well have disseminated, but they/it did not invent.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
SuperSlonik
> between RP, "BBC English", "Oxford English" "The Queen's English" and
> "Public School English" is controversial. Some would see them as
I was surprised how many "standard" English languages you have... :-)
What about learning cassetes for foreigners from Oxford/Cambridge/etc?
What kind of English do they use?
Best regards,
Stan
Dave Swindell
<nob...@nowhere.co.uk> writes
>"Richard Ashton" <'{R}'@semolina.org> wrote in message
>news:ttjqcug069cdd4b4m...@4ax.com...
>> On 29 Apr 2002 02:50:06 -0700, cob...@hotmail.com (SuperSlonik)
>wrote:
>>
>> }I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation and
>when?
>
>RP was never formally created or enforced (unlike France or Italy). It
>grew out of the middle class version of the London/South Eastern
>dialect, no doubt aided by the increasing social mobility of the C19th
>which led people to be concerned about talking and writing "correctly".
Could we clarify what we mean by RP?
In my perception the most visible speaker of RP is the art critic and
personality Brian Sewel. It would be impossible to attempt to give an
accurate text rendering of those wonderfully strangled tones, but
imagine somebody talking way down in the back of their throat, without
moving their upper lip, and with marbles in their mouth.
I have only met three people who use this accent/dialect, in nearly 60
years of mixing in wide social circles. Elsewhere it was suggested that
only 2% of the population use this dialect. The modern "eminently
acceptable" English, perhaps the best description of "accentless" BBC
against "estuary" English, is far more widely heard. Is that what *you*
mean by RP?
Matthew M. Huntbach
> RP was never formally created or enforced (unlike France or Italy). It
> grew out of the middle class version of the London/South Eastern
> dialect, no doubt aided by the increasing social mobility of the C19th
> which led people to be concerned about talking and writing "correctly".
More correctly, London/south-east Midlands. The distinctive dialectical
forms to the south-east of London did not contribute to it.
Matthew Huntbach
Einde O'Callaghan
"Standard British English", except perhaps for so-called "public-school
Engnlish", which often seems to be an exaggerated form of th others.
There may be slight differences but IMO they are minimal.
On beginners' cassettes using British English they often use speakers
with more or less standard pronunciation, but if the course is designed
properly the learners will encounter different accents - American,
regional British accents, even non-native accents fairly soon into the
course.
The standard pronunciation used is the one recorded in the dictionaries.
However, I know for a fact that my idiolect has more vowel sounds than
are used in standard English, e.g for me the vowel sounds in "pork", and
"fork" are different, even though in standard British English they are
the same. Nevertheless my pupils do learn to speak English (essentially
Britihs english since that is the form in most of the textbooks I have
to use) with a pronunciation that is relatively standard.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Phil C.
news:o01yghA8...@tcp.co.uk...
My linguistics dictionary gives "Pronunciation of standard British
English based on the speech of educated speakers of southern British
English.... the type of pronunciation often recommended as a model for
foreign learners."
MW gives - "Received Standard, the dialect of British English spoken by
the upper classes, esp. by graduates of the public schools and of Oxford
and Cambridge."
Collins gives "Received Pronunciation, the accent of standard Southern
British English"
I'm using the top definition but there are more questions than answers.
"Educated" would once have been seen as "privately educated". RP and
Public School pronunciation would once have been seen as identical.
Graduates of Oxbridge would once nearly all have been from public
schools. A public school accent, however strangled and artificial, would
once have been deemed correct by definition. But no longer. The old
public school accent could not be called RP these days if the term is to
have any meaning - it is certainly not the standard for teaching English
to foreign learners. MW gives "re-ceived (re sevd) adj. accepted;
considered as standard". I have a strong impression that it is no longer
encouraged in public schools, though others may know more. It may indeed
be better to use a more neutral term with a more clearly agreed,
flexible definition.
I'd be surprised if the dulcet tones of Brian Sewell are considered
anything but bizarre - a British version of Loyd Grossman. I have come
across a number of similar extreme accents but they were rarified -
music students at prestigious locations - and gave a strong impression
of being unsocialised or eccentric.
Phil C.
"Matthew M. Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aalj78$kut$3...@beta.qmul.ac.uk...
I think there are two issues here. The old southern dialects didn't
contribute much to the formation of standard English language (late
mediaeval period+) but the interest in "correct" accent comes rather
later. I assume that the southern middle classes' speech wasn't much
different from the London/S.E Midland middle classes by the C19th(?)
Matthew M. Huntbach
> > > RP was never formally created or enforced (unlike France or Italy).
> > > It grew out of the middle class version of the London/South Eastern
> > > dialect, no doubt aided by the increasing social mobility of the
> > > C19th which led people to be concerned about talking and writing
> > > "correctly".
> > More correctly, London/south-east Midlands. The distinctive
> > dialectical forms to the south-east of London did not contribute to it.
> I think there are two issues here. The old southern dialects didn't
> contribute much to the formation of standard English language (late
> mediaeval period+) but the interest in "correct" accent comes rather
> later. I assume that the southern middle classes' speech wasn't much
> different from the London/S.E Midland middle classes by the C19th(?)
In the 19th century, the distinctive Sussex accent would have been
universal amongst working class people in the county, and probably
amongst many middle class people as well, at least those native to
the county. It includes features such a rhoticity and voicing of
unvoiced consonants which we now associate with the south-west.
Until the coming of the railways, Sussex was considered a rather
isolated and distinct county because of the poor nature of the
land between it and London, making travel very difficult. Even in
the early parts of the 20th century, there was a sort of cult of
Sussex, encouraged by writers such as Kipling and Belloc, as an
rural area very distinct from London.
These days, of course, you would have to have either a very fine
ear, or be speaking to a very elderly person to note any distinction
between the speech of ordinary people in Sussex and the "Estuary
English" of South London.
Matthew Huntbach
John Ramsay
SuperSlonik wrote:
Ox-Bridge is the refined upper crust British accent.
BBC English was a less snooty but educated-sounding attempt at 'standard
English'.
A lot of Brits speak both the local dialect and a more standard version.
There's even a difference in Scotland between 'broad' and 'genteel
Scots'. Genteel Scots being close to standard English but with a soft
Scots accent.
There was a move years ago to a standard Canadian English via CBC radio
when Lorne Greene was an announcer but he debarked to the US south-west
to become TV's 'Pa Cartwright' and not with a standard Canadian accent
-:)
And the US has radio broadcaster schools to smooth out south and
south-western accents to a more 'standard American English'. You can
drive through the distinct dialect areas of the US and notice that the
radio announcers do not talk like the locals do.
Molly
Einde O'Callaghan (Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-
interkom.de>) wrote
>Nevertheless my pupils do learn to speak English (essentially
>Britihs english since that is the form in most of the textbooks I have
>to use) with a pronunciation that is relatively standard.
This reminds me of the current Jaffa Cakes TV advertisement where an
infant school teacher progresses from "Full moon" to "Total eclipse" via
a (very clearly heard) "Harf moon".
--
Molly
Spammers are like tapeworms: they leech the life from the Internet and
provide nothing of benefit in return. (Patricia A. Shaffer)
Laura F Spira
>
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, in article <3CCE5984...@planet-interkom.de>,
> Einde O'Callaghan (Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-
> interkom.de>) wrote
>
> >Nevertheless my pupils do learn to speak English (essentially
> >Britihs english since that is the form in most of the textbooks I have
> >to use) with a pronunciation that is relatively standard.
>
> This reminds me of the current Jaffa Cakes TV advertisement where an
> infant school teacher progresses from "Full moon" to "Total eclipse" via
> a (very clearly heard) "Harf moon".
>
But doesn't she have her mouth stuffed with Jaffa Cake at the time? (I
may misremember: I have been trying to avoid that ad since I am rather
partial to Jaffa Cakes..oh dear, I feel a bout of Stuck Food Syndrome
coming on..)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
John Dean
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:3CCEE6BB...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
BTW, if you *do* watch that commercial, look out for the weird man who
appears outside the room half way through
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Raymond S. Wise
There are many uses of the expression "Standard English," but its use
to mean Received Pronunciation is a minority one. Usually it is used
to indicate a dialect. In his book *A Mouthful of Air: Language,
Languages--Especially English,* Anthony Burgess--following a practice
followed by some linguists--used it to mean a dialect only, with no
reference to an accent. A person could thus be said to speak "Standard
British English" with a Southern American accent or with a Scots
accent.
In this sense of referring to a dialect, there are indeed numerous
"Standard Englishes": David Crystal lists several of them in *The
Cambridge
Encyclopedia of the English Language* on page 511.
I know from having discussed the matter with people in other
newsgroups, and with a woman of my acquaintance who once taught
English in France, that "Standard English" is more likely to be used
outside the English-speaking world as a synonym for Received
Pronunciation.
One aspect of Received Pronunciation that I find, I have to admit,
rather startling is that it, and its abbreviation "RP," are so little
known, even by people who speak it. I have personally met two English
people, a man and a woman, both RP speakers, who had never heard of
the term. The man used the term "Oxbridge English," but I didn't think
to ask how the woman referred to her accent.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Dave Swindell
Wise <mpl...@my-deja.com> writes
>
>One aspect of Received Pronunciation that I find, I have to admit,
>rather startling is that it, and its abbreviation "RP," are so little
>known, even by people who speak it. I have personally met two English
>people, a man and a woman, both RP speakers, who had never heard of
>the term. The man used the term "Oxbridge English," but I didn't think
>to ask how the woman referred to her accent.
>
*openly* acknowledge anything about yourself that may suggest that you
are in any way superior to your fellow man. Brits know, of course, that
they are superior in all ways, but it simply isn't done to say it ;-)
This has been a frequent cause of ethnic misunderstanding, from the days
of Francis Galton's study of the natives of Damaraland in the early 20th
century, who were even more self-efacing than the English, to the
situation where Americans will push themselves forward in discussion but
Brits will only offer a tentative reply after a "suitable" pause.
Peter Duncanson
Wise) wrote:
The woman would not have referred to her accent. She and others
who spoke like her would consider themselves accentless.
I speak without an accent,
You sometimes pronounce a word oddly,
They have an accent,
and
Those other people are incomprehensible peasants -- are they
really speaking English?
--
Peter D.
Molly
om>, Peter Duncanson (Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net>) wrote
>The woman would not have referred to her accent. She and others
>who spoke like her would consider themselves accentless.
I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as they
speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
I consider myself accentless, and have done all my life, although I am
aware that my speech has in fact changed quite considerably since my
schooldays. Did I speak with an accent then? Do I now? Not in my ear
- but others would undoubtedly say "yes" to both.
Phil C.
news:3XcLwIAo...@clara.net...
> On Sun, 5 May 2002, in article
<cnu9duor2qcruid2mt78fuf53b7k9n8e35@4ax.c
> om>, Peter Duncanson (Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net>) wrote
>
> >The woman would not have referred to her accent. She and others
> >who spoke like her would consider themselves accentless.
>
> I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as
they
> speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
>
> I consider myself accentless, and have done all my life, although I am
> aware that my speech has in fact changed quite considerably since my
> schooldays. Did I speak with an accent then? Do I now? Not in my
ear
> - but others would undoubtedly say "yes" to both.
Now I am accentless. Really. A friend of mine with a pronounced Scouse
accent, who has lived and worked all over Britain, tells me that I have
got the most neutral accent of anyone he knows. It gives nothing away.
I'm not sure what he means by this, except that it's probably not meant
to be flattering. Anyway, I am quite willing to donate my accent to be
set up as the New National Standard, as long as this doesn't involve
invasive surgery.
The strange thing is that years ago I was often mistaken on the
telephone for someone else who was Scottish but had a pronounced East
Anglian accent and a complicated love life. I got some interesting phone
calls.
Jeffrey Goldberg
in <3XcLwIAo...@clara.net>:
> I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as they
> speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
True, but it's even more complex. While people consider themselves
accentless, they don't think that about people with (objectively)
identical accents. Suppose that A and B have the same lower class or lower
middle class accent. Now you can get trained third parties (linguists) to
judge recording of their speech to confirm that it is the same accent.
Now present to A a recording of B's speech and A will judge B negatively.
If A is presented with a range of accents and asked which is most similar
to their own, A will pick something that is a higher status than their own
speech (as independently judged).
Stigmatized accents, people systematically think that they have less of
it than they actually do. And when they hear their own accent in others,
they attach the stigma and recognize the accent.
It's been far far too long since I learned about this for me to recall any
publication details, but I believe that there was a fairly extensive
series of studies around this effect.
-j
--
Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/
Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice
I rarely read top-posted, over-quoting or HTML postings.
Phil C.
"Jeffrey Goldberg" <{$news}$@goldmark.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02050...@lehel.goldmark.private...
> On May 5, 2002 Molly <nos...@mockfords.clara.co.uk> wrote
> in <3XcLwIAo...@clara.net>:
>
> > I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as
they
> > speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
>
> True, but it's even more complex. While people consider themselves
> accentless, they don't think that about people with (objectively)
> identical accents. Suppose that A and B have the same lower class or
lower
> middle class accent. Now you can get trained third parties
(linguists) to
> judge recording of their speech to confirm that it is the same accent.
>
> Now present to A a recording of B's speech and A will judge B
negatively.
> If A is presented with a range of accents and asked which is most
similar
> to their own, A will pick something that is a higher status than their
own
> speech (as independently judged).
>
> Stigmatized accents, people systematically think that they have less
of
> it than they actually do. And when they hear their own accent in
others,
> they attach the stigma and recognize the accent.
I'm sure that's right - having grown up within smelling distance of The
Estuary I've seen it in practice. I suspect that the language we hear
ourselves speaking in our heads is very different from what actually
comes out of our mouths. There does seem to be a genuine tendency to
develop "immunity" to accents, however. When I first moved to this area
my son's teacher could detect clear traces of a regional accent in his
speech, from the area we'd just left. I couldn't hear it at all though
I'm sure I'd notice it instantly now, having become re-sensitised to
that accent. Visiting friends and relatives in areas where I've lived I
notice how much stronger their accents strangely seem to have become.
Molly
ehel.goldmark.private>, Jeffrey Goldberg (Jeffrey Goldberg
<{$news}$@goldmark.org>) wrote
>On May 5, 2002 Molly <nos...@mockfords.clara.co.uk> wrote
> in <3XcLwIAo...@clara.net>:
>
>> I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as they
>> speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
>
>True, but it's even more complex. While people consider themselves
>accentless, they don't think that about people with (objectively)
>identical accents. Suppose that A and B have the same lower class or lower
>middle class accent. Now you can get trained third parties (linguists) to
>judge recording of their speech to confirm that it is the same accent.
Ten or twelve years ago, I took on an evening job as a telephone
salesperson for the Evening Argus. I thought I was doing pretty well
(and my sales figures seemed to confirm it) until, as part of a regular
supervision session, I had some recordings of my phone calls played back
to me. Shock horror! What a ghastly drawl! I nearly resigned on the
spot.
Dr Robin Bignall
<nos...@mockfords.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 5 May 2002, in article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205050838110.994-100000@l
>ehel.goldmark.private>, Jeffrey Goldberg (Jeffrey Goldberg
><{$news}$@goldmark.org>) wrote
>>On May 5, 2002 Molly <nos...@mockfords.clara.co.uk> wrote
>> in <3XcLwIAo...@clara.net>:
>>
>>> I think that *everyone* considers themselves accentless as long as they
>>> speak with the same accent as those they encounter every day.
>>
>>True, but it's even more complex. While people consider themselves
>>accentless, they don't think that about people with (objectively)
>>identical accents. Suppose that A and B have the same lower class or lower
>>middle class accent. Now you can get trained third parties (linguists) to
>>judge recording of their speech to confirm that it is the same accent.
>
>Ten or twelve years ago, I took on an evening job as a telephone
>salesperson for the Evening Argus. I thought I was doing pretty well
>(and my sales figures seemed to confirm it) until, as part of a regular
>supervision session, I had some recordings of my phone calls played back
>to me. Shock horror! What a ghastly drawl! I nearly resigned on the
>spot.
I left Nottingham in 1961 and have lived in many places. I, too, think
that I've lost my accent until I listen to my own voice on the answer
phone. Who is this untutored lout who has hacked my message?
--
wrmst rgrds
RB...(docrobi...@ntlworld.com)
Alasdair Baxter
wrote:
>I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation and when?
>Is there any place in England with dialect which is closest to RP?
>How actually English language in Britain was codified?
I have heard it said that the people of Inverness-shire speak with the
purest English. Has anyone else heard this?
When I lived in Glasgow many years ago, I noticed that it was very
difficult to tell someone's socio-economic background from their
accent unlike the situation in most parts of England.
Iain Diamond
I'd heard that about the people of Inverness too, but it didn't seem to be
borne out when I travelled up a couple of weeks ago. I was happy to hear a
definite Scottish accent with a wee west coast twang too :-)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
ia...@iaind.fsnet.co.uk "Iain Diamond" writes:
[something which had presumably already established a thread elsewhere
before being cross-posted into <news:uk.culture.language.english>]
> > On 29 Apr 2002 02:50:06 -0700, cob...@hotmail.com (SuperSlonik)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I have an easy question - who "invented" Received Pronunciation and when?
Lord Reith; ca. 1923.
HTH, HAND
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of
distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr-
easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs