Gondor and the North
Steuard Jensen
thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
was a major setback for Sauron's minions "beyond" Gondor (I think it
counts as part of the area that Boromir was so proud of defending),
but I could imagine the Gondorians not even knowing that it had
happened. We know that the Dwarves' earlier victory at Azanulbizar
sent Orcish refugees into Rohan, so Gondor was certainly aware of that
battle, but it doesn't seem like the Goblin army's destruction after
Smaug's death would have produced that kind of effect. Nevertheless,
it certainly made a difference in the long run: if the Goblins hadn't
been massively reduced when they were, there would have been a lot
more of them not just to threaten the North, but to free troops to
attack Lorien and even Rohan and Gondor in the final war. So the
question is, did Gondor know that it had been "saved" by Dain, Bard,
and Thranduil?
On another note, how much of a connection do you think Gondor had with
the area around the Lonely Mountain at all? It doesn't sound like
they'd had any Elvish visitors in years, and Gimli sounds like one of
the first Dwarves to visit the area in ages, too. Were there Lake-men
or men of Dale who went on trading missions to Minas Tirith? My
impression is that they mainly traded down along the River Running,
which I believe flowed into the sea of Rhun. I would then conclude
that their primary trading partners would probably count as
"Easterlings" or relatives of the Wainriders, which makes their
independence from Sauron somewhat surprising. Was it the good
influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free? Would Lake-town
have fallen into Sauron's orbit if people like the Master seen in _The
Hobbit_ had remained in charge?
Steuard Jensen
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
(subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
than gandlaf realizes
that mightve just been refering to rohan
but it might also have included wiklderland
> the area around the Lonely Mountain at all? It doesn't sound like
> they'd had any Elvish visitors in years, and Gimli sounds like one of
they used to have dealing with the men in the the southern reaches
and they would know about the lonely mountain
Natman
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> Nevertheless,
>it certainly made a difference in the long run: if the Goblins hadn't
>been massively reduced when they were, there would have been a lot
>more of them not just to threaten the North, but to free troops to
>attack Lorien and even Rohan and Gondor in the final war. So the
>question is, did Gondor know that it had been "saved" by Dain, Bard,
>and Thranduil?
>
Bear in mind that the Battle of the Five Armies (TA 2941) and the
siege of Gondor (TA 3019) were 78 years apart.
pawn
>>The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
>>thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
>>
>>
>
>when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
>denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
>(subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
>than gandlaf realizes
>
And yet, Denethor encourages Pippin to sing a happy song so that Gondor
might feel that their long efforts were not in vain, thus belittling the
efforts of other enemies of the enemy.
I think it's clear that Boromir, at least, was completely oblivious of
the efforts of other peoples.
>that mightve just been refering to rohan
>but it might also have included wiklderland
>
I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will, Sauron
would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use the
palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the war at Erebor.
Yuk Tang
>
> I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
> Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron could
control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news because
there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see. What hope there
was wasn't revealed to him by Gandalf.
> In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use
> the palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the
> war at Erebor.
Elsewhere, it's indicated that Denethor knew of the palantir before he
became Steward, and used it as soon as he assumed the title.
--
Cheers, ymt.
pawn
>pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in news:3F41096E...@hanneng.com:
>
>
>>I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
>>Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
>>
>>
>
>The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron could
>control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news because
>there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see.
>
Without the books in front of me, (paraphrasing) "...even Sauron could
not make the Palantir show something untrue, rather Sauron would only
reveal to Denethor what he chose for him to see. No doubt much of this
information was useful, but...".
Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze was
snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
>What hope there
>was wasn't revealed to him by Gandalf.
>
No, it was revealed to him by Sauron whilst showing him the tremendous
might of Sauron's army.
>>In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use
>>the palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the
>>war at Erebor.
>>
>>
>
>Elsewhere, it's indicated that Denethor knew of the palantir before he
>became Steward, and used it as soon as he assumed the title.
>
Hmmmm...not arguing, and perhaps the quote I referred to was actually
applied to Saruman. Either way, the point's valid.
Bill O'Meally
"Yuk Tang" <jim.l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93DBC00DFC9Bj...@130.133.1.4...
> pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in news:3F41096E...@hanneng.com:
> >
> > I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
> > Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
>
> The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron could
> control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news because
> there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see. What hope there
> was wasn't revealed to him by Gandalf.
>
>
You mean seeing Aragorn at the helm of the largest Corsair ship coming
up Anduin wouldn't have been encouraging? Instead, all Denethor saw was
a fleet of enemy ships invading, probably ensuring Gondor's defeat in
his mind.
While I wouldn't phrase it the same way as the OP, Sauron was certainly
able to allow Denethor only those things that would lead to his despair.
I agree that neither the Palantir nor Denethor were enslaved by Sauron,
however.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Bill O'Meally
"pawn" <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in message
news:3F411F2B...@hanneng.com...
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>
> >pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in news:3F41096E...@hanneng.com:
> >
> >
> >>I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
> >>Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron could
> >control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news because
> >there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see.
> >
>
> Without the books in front of me, (paraphrasing) "...even Sauron
could
> not make the Palantir show something untrue, rather Sauron would only
> reveal to Denethor what he chose for him to see. No doubt much of
this
> information was useful, but...".
>
> Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze was
> snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
>
Denethor's gaze was not snared. (Are you thinking of Saruman who *did*
fall under Sauron's dominion?). He was certainly no slave to Sauron.
Denethor's downfall was through his pride and love of Gondor, which
Sauron played against him. He never betrayed Gondor until his final
despair and suicide. In seeing only that which Sauron wanted him to see,
ie, Gondor's inevitable defeat, was how Sauron manipulated Denethor.
Yuk Tang
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>>pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in
>>news:3F41096E...@hanneng.com:
>>
>>>I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
>>>Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
>>
>>The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron
>>could control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news
>>because there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see.
>
> Without the books in front of me, (paraphrasing) "...even Sauron
> could not make the Palantir show something untrue, rather Sauron
> would only reveal to Denethor what he chose for him to see. No
> doubt much of this information was useful, but...".
>
> Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze
> was snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
It's possible to choose to let the viewer see something, but not have
the viewer be a slave to the displayer.
The counterpoint to Operation Overlord was a massive operation to let
the Germans believe that the main invasion would be at the Pas de
Calais. The imaginary invasion force had its own chain of command,
headed by the most flamboyant allied General, Patton. False signals
were perpetuated, and IIRC wooden tanks were made. The Allies didn't
_force_ the Germans to look that way, but if perchance they did, they'd
be fooled into thinking that the invasion force would be taking the
short hop.
Similarly, the palantir of Minas Tirith wasn't controlled by that of
Minas Ithil; see the appendices and UT. But when Denethor of his own
free will decided to spy on Mordor's doings, he saw the immense forces
arrayed for the final attack on Gondor. Realistically, there *was* no
hope for Gondor.
>>What hope there
>>was wasn't revealed to him by Gandalf.
>
> No, it was revealed to him by Sauron whilst showing him the
> tremendous might of Sauron's army.
The hope lay in a hopeless plan. The benefit of Gandalf's judgment and
current knowledge wasn't available to him; what he had was his own
interpretation of events, and little hope lay there.
>>>In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use
>>>the palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the
>>>war at Erebor.
>>
>>Elsewhere, it's indicated that Denethor knew of the palantir
>>before he became Steward, and used it as soon as he assumed the
>>title.
>
> Hmmmm...not arguing, and perhaps the quote I referred to was
> actually applied to Saruman. Either way, the point's valid.
I've not seen any reference to the precise circumstances of Saruman's
first use of the palantir. It was certainly after he took the keys of
the Orthanc, ie. during or after Beren's stewardship. He used it to
spy around, until he eventually looked at Barad Dur and was caught.
Denethor wasn't dominated in the same way as Saruman was because he had
a legitimacy that Saruman didn't, and JRRT set store by these things.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Sean O'Hara
greykitten tomys des anges declared...
> > The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
> > thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
>
> when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
> denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
> (subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
> than gandlaf realizes
>
> that mightve just been refering to rohan
> but it might also have included wiklderland
>
place, I doubt he was that aware of it.
--
Sean O'Hara
Kelly: A mermaid riding a rocket ship.
Tabby: How?
Kelly: What do you mean how? Sidesaddle. She's riding sidesaddle.
She's got a fish tail for Christ's sake!
--Erica Beeny, "Battle of Shaker Heights"
Bagronk
the palantir, Lopsided Frog recited:
>> The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
>> thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
>
>when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
>denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
>(subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
>than gandlaf realizes
>
>that mightve just been refering to rohan
>but it might also have included wiklderland
I don't think the palantir was able to see to Erebor. UT says the
smaller stones, like Denethor's, had an optimal viewing distance of
about 500 miles, and everything farther was less and less clear.
Erebor was about twice as far.
--
Baggy the Barrel-clothed Bolshevorc
Orcs Against Racism - http://www.sheepofstone.de/
The worcers united will never be defeated
Bagronk
>The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
>thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
>was a major setback for Sauron's minions "beyond" Gondor (I think it
>counts as part of the area that Boromir was so proud of defending),
>but I could imagine the Gondorians not even knowing that it had
>happened.
I find it hard to think that such a major battle would have been
completely unknown to Gondor. They had historians too, and the news
had 80 years time to spread to Gondor. (And even if not, Gandalf would
have surely told them during his visits?) But surely they did not
understand the full consequences or even bagatellized them in their,
as coyotes so aptly said, parochialism. Maybe for them it was just an
uninteresting, small battle of some northern settlers against some
mountain orcs. For them, Mordor was the main enemy, and it would have
been incompatible to their self-understanding as "protectors of the
West" to admit that a real threat had built up - well, not exactly in
their back, but surely in the lands they claimed to protect. It was
probably similar to Gondor's relation to Rivendell - they knew some
things about it, of course, but Boromir didn't even exactly know where
it was.
>On another note, how much of a connection do you think Gondor had with
>the area around the Lonely Mountain at all? It doesn't sound like
>they'd had any Elvish visitors in years, and Gimli sounds like one of
>the first Dwarves to visit the area in ages, too. Were there Lake-men
>or men of Dale who went on trading missions to Minas Tirith? My
>impression is that they mainly traded down along the River Running,
>which I believe flowed into the sea of Rhun. I would then conclude
>that their primary trading partners would probably count as
>"Easterlings" or relatives of the Wainriders, which makes their
>independence from Sauron somewhat surprising. Was it the good
>influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free?
Thranduil mainly, I think. The Master was very anxious to keep good
relations to him. Did Lake-town have much to do with dwarves, except
singing old songs about them?
> Would Lake-town
>have fallen into Sauron's orbit if people like the Master seen in _The
>Hobbit_ had remained in charge?
I don't know; they don't seem very warlike to me. I just can't imagine
the Master picking up a sword and marching to Mordor to fight for
Sauron. It's more likely they would have (grudgingly) paid Sauron a
little tribute for the right to be left alone. If not (and if you're
talking about a hypothetical situation without Bilbo's quest) a little
dragon visit would have made them obedient quickly.
AC
pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote:
> coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
>>>The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
>>>thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
>>>
>>>
>>
>>when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
>>denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
>>(subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
>>than gandlaf realizes
>>
> And yet, Denethor encourages Pippin to sing a happy song so that Gondor
> might feel that their long efforts were not in vain, thus belittling the
> efforts of other enemies of the enemy.
>
> I think it's clear that Boromir, at least, was completely oblivious of
> the efforts of other peoples.
There's no doubt that Denethor didn't seem to give credit where credit was
due. At the same time, it was Gondor that did indeed stand between Sauron
and much of the rest of the Northwest of Middle Earth, and also had a
special place of hatred in Sauron's heart.
>
>>that mightve just been refering to rohan
>>but it might also have included wiklderland
>>
>
> I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will, Sauron
> would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
Who said the palantir was a slave to Sauron's will? Sauron could not
deceive Denethor through the Palantir, and pretty clearly Denethor did more
with the Palantir of Minas Tirith than gaze at Mordor.
>
> In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use the
> palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the war at Erebor.
Yes, but that does not indicate that Sauron controlled the Palantir. All
Sauron did was allow Denethor to view the truth, that Gondor could not
defeat the Enemy in warfare. Any victory through arms would be only
temporary. Sauron could not make the Palantir lie, and though he may driven
Denethor to despair, I do not believe that for one moment Denethor was ever
under Sauron's control. Denethor's madness was as much Denethor's doing as
Sauron's.
--
Aaron Clausen
AC
pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote:
> Yuk Tang wrote:
>
>>pawn <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in news:3F41096E...@hanneng.com:
>>
>>
>>>I think since Denethor's palantir was a slave to Sauron's will,
>>>Sauron would not have revealed encouraging news to Denethor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The Palantir wasn't a slave to Sauron's will; not even Sauron could
>>control Denethor thus. He didn't see any encouraging news because
>>there _weren't_ any encouraging news for him to see.
>>
>
> Without the books in front of me, (paraphrasing) "...even Sauron could
> not make the Palantir show something untrue, rather Sauron would only
> reveal to Denethor what he chose for him to see. No doubt much of this
> information was useful, but...".
>
> Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze was
> snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
I'm sorry, but you have not provided a quote. Please provide a citation for
Denethor and the Palantir being enslaved to Sauron. YOu have confused your
opinion with what is actually said on the matter.
Me thinks you need to read the UT chapter on the Palantiri again.
>
>
>>What hope there
>>was wasn't revealed to him by Gandalf.
>>
>
> No, it was revealed to him by Sauron whilst showing him the tremendous
> might of Sauron's army.
It wasn't just the vastness of Mordor's strength that drove Denethor over
the edge. It was what he thought to be the mortal wounding of his only
surviving son and the knowledge that the Ring had been sent into Mordor.
>
>>>In fact, Gandalf theorizes that Denethor did not dare to even use
>>>the palantir until his most desparate hour, i.e., long after the
>>>war at Erebor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Elsewhere, it's indicated that Denethor knew of the palantir before he
>>became Steward, and used it as soon as he assumed the title.
>>
>
> Hmmmm...not arguing, and perhaps the quote I referred to was actually
> applied to Saruman. Either way, the point's valid.
No, it is not. Denethor was not controlled by Sauron. Sauron could not
make the Palantir lie, and what Denethor saw was the truth. There was more
than one factor that lead to Denethor's madness.
--
Aaron Clausen
AC
Let's face it, Denethor was not in a healthy state of mind at that point.
He believed Faramir mortally wounded, he knew that Gandalf had sent the Ring
into Mordor (which he thought the very pinnacle of stupidity), he knew that
Gondor could not withstand Sauron's might, and he knew that the Heir of
Elendil had returned, which he obviously viewed as a usurpation, probably
engineered by Gandalf.
I actually find Denethor to be the most tragic character in the entire book,
and one of Tolkien's most tragic characters in the entire mythos. Here is a
man who is one of the most gifted of the Numenoreans left in Middle Earth.
He is possessed of a keen mind and powerful will. He is charged with
leading a kingless kingdom that has been waning for centuries against the
might of Mordor, which grows daily. It is a hopeless situation, and I
wonder how many would have maintained themselves through what could only be
seen as certain defeat. Certainly he was proud to a fault, and his
favoritism of Boromir over Faramir was also wrong, but I actually have a
great deal of empathy for him.
--
Aaron Clausen
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> >>The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
> >>thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
> >>
> >>
> >
> >when gandalf criticizes denethors parochialism
> >denethor indicates he has a wider awareness
> >(subsequently revealed to be due to the palantir)
> >than gandlaf realizes
> >
> And yet, Denethor encourages Pippin to sing a happy song so that Gondor
> might feel that their long efforts were not in vain, thus belittling the
> efforts of other enemies of the enemy.
pipin is from eriador where tere was no major action
> I think it's clear that Boromir, at least, was completely oblivious of
> the efforts of other peoples.
they had to label boromirs shoes l and r
The Sidhekin
> "pawn" <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in message
> news:3F411F2B...@hanneng.com...
[...]
> > Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze was
> > snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
> >
>
> Denethor's gaze was not snared. (Are you thinking of Saruman who *did*
> fall under Sauron's dominion?).
No?
"He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw
nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."
-- Gandalf, _The Pyre of Denethor_
Sounds to me as if his gaze was snared and bound -- needing Sauron's
permission to see things.
Appendix A gives some background:
"None of the Stewards had dared to [look in the _palantír_ of the
White Tower], nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur, after the fall of
Minas Ithil when the _palantír_ of Isildur came into the hands of the
Enemy; for the Stone of Minas Tirith was the _palantír_ of Anarion,
most close in accord with the one that Sauron possessed."
But while this hints at the danger, Gandalf's quote (above) is the
only quote I can find that is explicit to the effect that Sauron was
in command of what Denethor might see.
> He was certainly no slave to Sauron.
No, that would be Saruman. Sort of a rebellious slave though.
-SK-
--
perl -e 'print "Just another Perl ${\(trickster and hacker)},";'
The Sidhekin *proves* Sidhe did it!
Bill O'Meally
"The Sidhekin"
<Sidh...@remove-spam-and-and-and-remove.allverden.nospam.invalid> wrote
in message news:7x7k5ae...@laptop.dav...
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> writes:
> > Denethor's gaze was not snared. (Are you thinking of Saruman who
*did*
> > fall under Sauron's dominion?).
>
> No?
>
> "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw
> nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."
>
> -- Gandalf, _The Pyre of Denethor_
>
> Sounds to me as if his gaze was snared and bound -- needing Sauron's
> permission to see things.
>
> Appendix A gives some background:
>
> "None of the Stewards had dared to [look in the _palantír_ of the
> White Tower], nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur, after the fall of
> Minas Ithil when the _palantír_ of Isildur came into the hands of the
> Enemy; for the Stone of Minas Tirith was the _palantír_ of Anarion,
> most close in accord with the one that Sauron possessed."
>
> But while this hints at the danger, Gandalf's quote (above) is the
> only quote I can find that is explicit to the effect that Sauron was
> in command of what Denethor might see.
I'm not disputing that Sauron controlled what Denethor saw, in fact I
pretty clearly stated this in my post. I guess the term 'snare' connotes
different things for different people. The post I was replying to seemed
to suggest that Denethor was enslaved to Sauron via the Palantir, which
is not so. If the OP didn't intend this then I apologize.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard Jensen
>Was it the good
>influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free? Would Lake-town
>have fallen into Sauron's orbit if people like the Master seen in _The
>Hobbit_ had remained in charge?
Nothing was needed, I think, to keep Lake-town free up until the
time of Bilbo's adventure. Sauron was at the opposite end of
Mirkwood from them, and at that point his influence extended only in
the vicinity of Dol Guldur. Beorn was _much_ closer to Sauron than
Lake-town was, and neither he nor Gandalf seemed at all worried
about any danger to Bilbo and the Dwarves from that quarter.
At most, Sauron might have had secret agents or spies in Lake-town
at that point.
After Sauron's "expulsion" from Dol Guldur, when he re-entered
Mordor and openly began aiming at world domination, then Lake-town
might have been in more danger. But even then, remember he was just
sending out his first tendrils shortly before the War of the Ring.
Even then it was a diplomatic mission to Dain under the Mountain,
rather than any sort of military offensive or even an attempt to
exact tribute.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Stan Brown
>Without the books in front of me, (paraphrasing) "...even Sauron could
>not make the Palantir show something untrue, rather Sauron would only
>reveal to Denethor what he chose for him to see. No doubt much of this
>information was useful, but...".
>
>Sorry dude, the books make it quite clear that once Denthor's gaze was
>snared, him and his Palantir were slaves to Sauron's will.
You may be thinking of this speech of Gandalf's in "The Last
Debate":
"The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dûr
can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things
shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning
of what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when
Denethor saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more
still being gathered, he saw that which truly is."
Your paraphrase is not bad, but I do think there's a bit more of a
question mark in the actual passage. Gandalf says that _maybe_
Sauron could control what part of reality Denethor sees.
pawn
>
> Denethor's gaze was not snared. (Are you thinking of Saruman who *did*
> fall under Sauron's dominion?).
Yes, I already conceded that.
> He was certainly no slave to Sauron.
> Denethor's downfall was through his pride and love of Gondor, which
> Sauron played against him. He never betrayed Gondor until his final
> despair and suicide. In seeing only that which Sauron wanted him to see,
> ie, Gondor's inevitable defeat, was how Sauron manipulated Denethor.
Which, of course, was my original point.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I'm sorry, but you have not provided a quote. Please provide a citation for
> Denethor and the Palantir being enslaved to Sauron.
As noted in another response to this thread I think this may be
partially confusion of terms. Specifying everything in detail might
help. Does anyone disagree with any part of;
Denethor was unable to use the palantir to see anything except that
which Sauron ALLOWED him to see. The palantir was not 'irrevocably
bound' to Sauron, but Denethor was not strong enough to wrench control
away from Sauron as Aragorn did with the palantir of Orthanc.
Denethor's mind was not 'enslaved' by Sauron, but he was certainly
influenced by the contacts... though not as greatly as Saruman was.
> It wasn't just the vastness of Mordor's strength that drove Denethor over
> the edge. It was what he thought to be the mortal wounding of his only
> surviving son and the knowledge that the Ring had been sent into Mordor.
Based on the timing and Denethor's words to Gandalf I have previously
argued that it seems likely that Sauron let Denethor know that he had
captured some 'spies' at Cirith Ungol... not realizing just HOW
depressing that news would be to Denethor.
Pradera
loosely:
>>Was it the good
>>influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free? Would Lake-town
>>have fallen into Sauron's orbit if people like the Master seen in _The
>>Hobbit_ had remained in charge?
>
> Nothing was needed, I think, to keep Lake-town free up until the
> time of Bilbo's adventure. Sauron was at the opposite end of
> Mirkwood from them, and at that point his influence extended only in
> the vicinity of Dol Guldur. Beorn was _much_ closer to Sauron than
> Lake-town was, and neither he nor Gandalf seemed at all worried
> about any danger to Bilbo and the Dwarves from that quarter.
>
> At most, Sauron might have had secret agents or spies in Lake-town
> at that point.
>
> After Sauron's "expulsion" from Dol Guldur, when he re-entered
> Mordor and openly began aiming at world domination, then Lake-town
> might have been in more danger. But even then, remember he was just
> sending out his first tendrils shortly before the War of the Ring.
> Even then it was a diplomatic mission to Dain under the Mountain,
> rather than any sort of military offensive or even an attempt to
> exact tribute.
The thing is, easterlings and haradrim were even further than that. I
guess the problem is why did the Lake-Men and their fellow men from down
the Running River didn't fall for Sauron when he was in the heyday of his
'gathering of allies', back when he was growing in power in the east.
It's a good guess to say that the border of his influence was where
people whose veins had drops of Edain blood lived. Lake-men and
Rhovanioners were kin, weren't they? And they were all descended from
those tribes that fled from Morgoth back in the first age. The 'regular'
easterlings didn't have that advantage. That's why they were easier to
subdue.
--
Pradera
---
I'm going hunting.
I'm a hunter.
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/earthdawn
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Jamie Armstrong
> AC <tao...@alberni.net> wrote in message news:<slrnbk2ebs...@ts1.alberni.net>...
>
>
>>I'm sorry, but you have not provided a quote. Please provide a citation for
>>Denethor and the Palantir being enslaved to Sauron.
>
> As noted in another response to this thread I think this may be
> partially confusion of terms. Specifying everything in detail might
> help. Does anyone disagree with any part of;
>
> Denethor was unable to use the palantir to see anything except that
> which Sauron ALLOWED him to see. The palantir was not 'irrevocably
> bound' to Sauron, but Denethor was not strong enough to wrench control
> away from Sauron as Aragorn did with the palantir of Orthanc.
> Denethor's mind was not 'enslaved' by Sauron, but he was certainly
> influenced by the contacts... though not as greatly as Saruman was.
>
the legal authority to use the stone, which means that Sauron absolutely
could *not* prevent Denethor seeing whatever he wanted using the stone.
And the legal right to use the stone counted for much in a contest such
as that between Denethor or Aragorn and Sauron (I don't think Aragorn
was any stronger that Denethor mentally, and neither was stronger than
Sauron). However, what I think Sauron did was to ensure that what
Denethor *did* see (armies massing, Pelargir falling) looked as bad as
it could. And this he could do very simply: before D-Day the allies
invested a huge amount of effort in convincing the Nazis that the
invasion would come across the Pas de Calais, by building fake camps,
and having intensely high radio traffic, and so on - anything that made
it look as if the forces were massed in Kent. Sauron could achieve a
similar effect by making his forces appear much larger than they were:
build camps; ostentatiously march units here there and everywhere; bring
the Corsairs up). Denethor's mind was by this stage rather fragile, and
so he would probably look through the stone to Mordor, and see huge
camps and units marching everywhere, and not look any closer, to see
that the camps were half full, or that the unit he was watching was
poorly equipped. Ok, this is all supposition, but we certainly know it
fits in with how he viewed the Corsair fleet sailing towards Minas
Tirith: obviously he had seen the fleet set sail, and that was enough
for him to assume the worst - had he looked closer, he would have seen
the banner of the kings, and that the slaves were rowing of their own
free will, and that the forces on board were Gondorian.
To be more succinct: Sauron could not control the Minas Tirith stone -
but he knew about the stone, and could control what Denethor saw, and so
made the best use of that.
>>It wasn't just the vastness of Mordor's strength that drove Denethor over
>>the edge. It was what he thought to be the mortal wounding of his only
>>surviving son and the knowledge that the Ring had been sent into Mordor.
>
> Based on the timing and Denethor's words to Gandalf I have previously
> argued that it seems likely that Sauron let Denethor know that he had
> captured some 'spies' at Cirith Ungol... not realizing just HOW
> depressing that news would be to Denethor.
I see no reason to assume that. It seems to me that Denethor, seing the
power of the armies sent against him assumed that Sauron *must* already
have obtained the Ring.
Jamie
--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Yuk Tang
news:Xns93DC8AFBA677Ap...@130.133.1.4:
> The thing is, easterlings and haradrim were even further than
> that. I guess the problem is why did the Lake-Men and their fellow
> men from down the Running River didn't fall for Sauron when he was
> in the heyday of his 'gathering of allies', back when he was
> growing in power in the east.
Sauron was kicked out of Dol Guldur before he started to openly display
his power. Any attempt to seduce the Lakemen would have come up
against their more established trading partners, the Mirkwood elves.
> It's a good guess to say that the
> border of his influence was where people whose veins had drops of
> Edain blood lived. Lake-men and Rhovanioners were kin, weren't
> they? And they were all descended from those tribes that fled from
> Morgoth back in the first age. The 'regular' easterlings didn't
> have that advantage. That's why they were easier to subdue.
Bor and co. didn't have the 'advantage' of being from the Three Houses,
yet remained faithful even in the face of Morgoth, even when facing
immediate and overwhelming defeat. What happened to them, I wonder?
Did any remnants make their way to the mouths of Sirion? And if so,
were they welcomed?
--
Cheers, ymt.
jsberry
>>influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free?
>
> Thranduil mainly, I think.
Thandruil...good influence...hahahahahaha
Read the books.
Thandruil cannot be described as "good." Maybe "self-centered" at
best. He did a lot more to hinder the anti-Sauron cause than to help
it.
pawn
>Denethor was unable to use the palantir to see anything except that
>which Sauron ALLOWED him to see. The palantir was not 'irrevocably
>bound' to Sauron, but Denethor was not strong enough to wrench control
>away from Sauron as Aragorn did with the palantir of Orthanc.
>Denethor's mind was not 'enslaved' by Sauron,
>
Hmmmm....I would still partially argue this. Certainly Gandalf said
that it was Sauron's will at work when Denethor lost it and tried to
kill Faramir. If it was Sauron's will, and Denethor was the instrument
of that will, then I think it's reasonable that Denethor was "ensnared"
or even "enslaved" to a certain extent. And to bring it full circle,
the Palantir was the vehicle through which this "partial" enslavement
took place.
>Based on the timing and Denethor's words to Gandalf I have previously
>argued that it seems likely that Sauron let Denethor know that he had
>captured some 'spies' at Cirith Ungol... not realizing just HOW
>depressing that news would be to Denethor.
>
>
Interesting. Never thought of that, but makes sense.
pawn
>"The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dûr
>can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things
>shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning
>of what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when
>Denethor saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more
>still being gathered, he saw that which truly is."
>
>Your paraphrase is not bad, but I do think there's a bit more of a
>question mark in the actual passage. Gandalf says that _maybe_
>Sauron could control what part of reality Denethor sees.
>
>
Yeah, unfortunately I combined parts of Saruman's experience with the
Palantir. Just one more reason not to read news at work.
Pradera
>> The thing is, easterlings and haradrim were even further than
>> that. I guess the problem is why did the Lake-Men and their fellow
>> men from down the Running River didn't fall for Sauron when he was
>> in the heyday of his 'gathering of allies', back when he was
>> growing in power in the east.
>
> Sauron was kicked out of Dol Guldur before he started to openly display
> his power.
In the west. And power <> military strength. And he had to have some
considerable power to take over Dol Guldur without anyone noticing. The
Easterlings and other dangers fell upon Gondor thousands of years before
Bo5A and driving Sauron out of Dol. He was there in 1050, plenty of time
to subdue anyone he pretty much wished to.
> Any attempt to seduce the Lakemen would have come up
> against their more established trading partners, the Mirkwood elves.
>
You think it was the trade agreements that kept Sauron at bay in
Mirkwood? Beorn and his people had no such agreements that we know of,
and yet they were one of the free people. Much closer to Dol Guldur than
the Lake Men. What about Northmen of Rhovanion? Closer to Mirkwood than
to Gondor, and yet they also remained free. With exception of Bor and his
kin, I see a straight line between West and East, allies and enemies of
Sauron - which is, those who fled from Morgoth in the beginning and those
who didn't.
>
>> It's a good guess to say that the
>> border of his influence was where people whose veins had drops of
>> Edain blood lived. Lake-men and Rhovanioners were kin, weren't
>> they? And they were all descended from those tribes that fled from
>> Morgoth back in the first age. The 'regular' easterlings didn't
>> have that advantage. That's why they were easier to subdue.
>
> Bor and co. didn't have the 'advantage' of being from the Three Houses,
> yet remained faithful even in the face of Morgoth, even when facing
> immediate and overwhelming defeat.
But they were those who fled from the Shadow, albeit couple a hundred
years later. This was to their advantage, I suppose. And they were one
known exception of the rule, so notable, that they earned their place in
legends and chronicles.
>What happened to them, I wonder?
> Did any remnants make their way to the mouths of Sirion? And if so,
> were they welcomed?
Were there any remnants? I'd guess if there were, they should settle
somewhere in Numenor, but we have no account of that. The evil
Easterlings had pretty much a free hand with dealing any remnants of
their kin, for a couple of decades, so I guess we should sadly assume
they did their job well...
Steuard Jensen
<3f40fc6f...@netnews.comcast.net>:
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> >Nevertheless, it certainly made a difference in the long run: if
> >the Goblins hadn't been massively reduced when they were, there
> >would have been a lot more of them not just to threaten the North,
> >but to free troops to attack Lorien and even Rohan and Gondor in
> >the final war.
> Bear in mind that the Battle of the Five Armies (TA 2941) and the
> siege of Gondor (TA 3019) were 78 years apart.
I'm certainly aware of that. But even after 78 years, I doubt that
the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were as numerous and dangerous as they
were immediately before the Battle of Five Armies (they had over 140
years to recover after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, after all).
And even if they _had_ recovered most of their pre-Hobbit numbers by
the War of the Ring (the Dwarves hadn't wiped out their homes this
time, for example), I can only imagine how numerous they would have
been by that time if they hadn't been beaten back by Dain, Bard, and
Thranduil.
Steuard Jensen
AC
> Pradera <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in
> news:Xns93DC8AFBA677Ap...@130.133.1.4:
>>
>> The thing is, easterlings and haradrim were even further than
>> that. I guess the problem is why did the Lake-Men and their fellow
>> men from down the Running River didn't fall for Sauron when he was
>> in the heyday of his 'gathering of allies', back when he was
>> growing in power in the east.
>
> Sauron was kicked out of Dol Guldur before he started to openly display
> his power. Any attempt to seduce the Lakemen would have come up
> against their more established trading partners, the Mirkwood elves.
That was feigned. Sauron had long prepared to take up residence again in
Mordor.
>
>
>> It's a good guess to say that the
>> border of his influence was where people whose veins had drops of
>> Edain blood lived. Lake-men and Rhovanioners were kin, weren't
>> they? And they were all descended from those tribes that fled from
>> Morgoth back in the first age. The 'regular' easterlings didn't
>> have that advantage. That's why they were easier to subdue.
>
> Bor and co. didn't have the 'advantage' of being from the Three Houses,
> yet remained faithful even in the face of Morgoth, even when facing
> immediate and overwhelming defeat. What happened to them, I wonder?
> Did any remnants make their way to the mouths of Sirion? And if so,
> were they welcomed?
As I recall, Bor and all his people were slain in the Battleo of Unnumbered
Tears. I'm fairly certain that any survivors would have likely been counted
among the Edain, as were the Druedain, and permitted to go to Numenor.
--
Aaron Clausen
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, jsberry <jsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Read the books.
Either this is a case of "do as I say not as I do", or you have
different books in mind.
>Thandruil cannot be described as "good." Maybe "self-centered" at
>best.
Like all the Elves, he was suspicious of Dwarves. But having made
them prisoner he treated them well.
When he and his army were marching to the Mountain for treasure,
they turned aside to help the Lake-men.
And he argued against fighting with the Dwarves: "Long will I tarry,
ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless
we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for
something that will bring reconciliation."
>He did a lot more to hinder the anti-Sauron cause than to help it.
Please mention one single thing he did that hindered the anti-Sauron
cause.
Pradera
loosely:
>> >Nevertheless, it certainly made a difference in the long run: if
>> >the Goblins hadn't been massively reduced when they were, there
>> >would have been a lot more of them not just to threaten the North,
>> >but to free troops to attack Lorien and even Rohan and Gondor in
>> >the final war.
>
>> Bear in mind that the Battle of the Five Armies (TA 2941) and the
>> siege of Gondor (TA 3019) were 78 years apart.
>
> I'm certainly aware of that. But even after 78 years, I doubt that
> the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were as numerous and dangerous as they
> were immediately before the Battle of Five Armies (they had over 140
> years to recover after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, after all).
> And even if they _had_ recovered most of their pre-Hobbit numbers by
> the War of the Ring (the Dwarves hadn't wiped out their homes this
> time, for example), I can only imagine how numerous they would have
> been by that time if they hadn't been beaten back by Dain, Bard, and
> Thranduil.
I think what the OP meant was that men (even Dunedain) have a short
memory... 78 years is a lot of time to forget things, especially if they
happened far away. What do people today know, on average, about wars
fought 50 yrs ago on other continents, even if they had great impact on
their lives?
I don't think Gondorians were even aware of what went on in the Misties
and their whereabouts. As far as they were concerned, it was Rohan's job
to keep mountain orcs at bay - a job which, I assume, was considered a
lot easier and simpler than the 'great work' of fighting Mordor and its
allies directly. There was wilderness up north - empty fields of
Rhovanion, dark forests of Mirkwood... how could anything happening in
those desolate, barbaric lands have any impact on the great kingdom of
Gondor? So, ranks of mountain orks were severely reduced. Big deal. That
only means Rohirrim get a chance to slack off again, while we here fight
our big war.
Bagronk
>>>Was it the good
>>>influence of Thranduil and Dain that kept them free?
>>
>> Thranduil mainly, I think.
>
>Thandruil...good influence...hahahahahaha
>
>Read the books.
>
>Thandruil cannot be described as "good." Maybe "self-centered" at
>best.
If you argue like this, then Thingol also cannot be described as
"good". Self-centered? Don't restrain yourself. Pompous ass, he was.
Yet there's no doubt his influence kept parts of Beleriand free for a
long time.
Thranduil's realm was probably the greatest local power in northern
Wilderland since Smaug destroyed Erebor. He had influence. And Elves
always fought against Sauron, so his influence was "good".
>He did a lot more to hinder the anti-Sauron cause than to help it.
He didn't know the backgrounds when he threw the dwarves into his
prison.
Donald Shepherd
> In article <51431c0.03081...@posting.google.com> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, jsberry <jsb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >He did a lot more to hinder the anti-Sauron cause than to help it.
>
> Please mention one single thing he did that hindered the anti-Sauron
> cause.
When you take into account Gandalf's retelling from UT about how he
was using the Dwarves to remove Smaug, potentially a deadly weapon for
Sauron to exploit, it is obvious that the Dwarves' mission is part of
the anti-Sauron cause, which he hindered by jailing the Dwarves
indefinitely.
AC
Let's be fair here. First off, the Dwarves really didn't have any idea that
Gandalf was thinking about Sauron. Second, Thranduil had no idea that the
Dwarves were out to kill any dragons.
--
Aaron Clausen
TT Arvind
> Like all the Elves, he was suspicious of Dwarves. But having made
> them prisoner he treated them well.
To make a small point which does not detract from your main argument,
would you really say the dwarves were treated "well"? They were shut in
solitary confinement in small cells. They did not have access to fresh
air or (in Thorin's case) light. Thorin, at least, was kept in thongs.
Whilst they were given enough food and drink and were therefore not
treated inhumanly, it's going a little far to say they were well treated.
Particularly since Gollum was treated better than they were.
--
Meneldil
People usually get what's coming to them...unless it's been mailed.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Certainly Gandalf said that it was Sauron's will at work when Denethor
> lost it and tried to kill Faramir.
Yes, but that 'will' could have been accomplished by driving Denethor
over the edge with info shown through the palantir rather than
'rewiring his brain'.
> If it was Sauron's will, and Denethor was the instrument of that will,
> then I think it's reasonable that Denethor was "ensnared" or even
> "enslaved" to a certain extent.
Which is more or less what I meant when I said that Denethor was
'influenced'. He was not 'enslaved' and forced to do something as
'influenced' into doing something that he normally would not.
Manipulation rather than domination.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Yes, I disagree profoundly. As stated in UT Denethor, not Sauron, had
> the legal authority to use the stone, which means that Sauron absolutely
> could *not* prevent Denethor seeing whatever he wanted using the stone.
Errr... ok, gotta disagree. Yes, Denethor had a 'legal' right to use
the stone. No, that did not mean that he could automatically
overpower Sauron and view whatever he wanted to... and there are
direct statements to the contrary;
"He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw
nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."
RotK, The Pyre of Denethor
> Sauron could achieve a similar effect by making his forces appear much
> larger than they were: build camps; ostentatiously march units here there
> and everywhere; bring the Corsairs up). Denethor's mind was by this stage
> rather fragile, and so he would probably look through the stone to Mordor,
> and see huge camps and units marching everywhere, and not look any closer,
> to see that the camps were half full, or that the unit he was watching was
> poorly equipped.
Again, I would dispute this interpretation because we are told that
Sauron could choose what others would see AND specifically that the
size of the enemy armies was NOT faked;
"The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur
can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things
shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of
what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw
great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being
gathered, he saw that which truly is."
RotK, The Last Debate
The first part of this description could be consistent with what you
said above about deception... 'cause them to mistake the meaning'.
However, Gandalf then turns around and says flat out that Sauron
really does have armies that big... which is also stated by the
'narrator' of the story. And this passage again says that Sauron
could control/choose what others would see. The whole point of what
was different with Aragorn was that as 'legal OWNER' he was able to
wrench the palantir AWAY from Sauron's control and view whatever he
liked.
> I see no reason to assume that. It seems to me that Denethor, seing the
> power of the armies sent against him assumed that Sauron *must* already
> have obtained the Ring.
Hrrrmmm... actually this doesn't seem >significantly< different from
what I said. My suggestion was that Denethor's despair was due to the
assumption that Sauron was about to get the Ring. You are saying that
Denethor assumed Sauron already had it. A matter of a minor
difference in timing with no impact on WHY Denethor would make the
assumption. Either way, if Sauron had mentioned the capture of the
spies at Cirith Ungol (where Denethor knew the Ring to be) Denethor
would naturally assume that the gig was up.
Bill O'Meally
"pawn" <pa...@hanneng.com> wrote in message
news:3F42237E...@hanneng.com...
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
> >Denethor was unable to use the palantir to see anything except that
> >which Sauron ALLOWED him to see. The palantir was not 'irrevocably
> >bound' to Sauron, but Denethor was not strong enough to wrench
control
> >away from Sauron as Aragorn did with the palantir of Orthanc.
> >Denethor's mind was not 'enslaved' by Sauron,
> >
>
> Hmmmm....I would still partially argue this. Certainly Gandalf said
> that it was Sauron's will at work when Denethor lost it and tried to
> kill Faramir. If it was Sauron's will, and Denethor was the
instrument
> of that will, then I think it's reasonable that Denethor was
"ensnared"
> or even "enslaved" to a certain extent. And to bring it full circle,
> the Palantir was the vehicle through which this "partial" enslavement
> took place.
I guess its your use of the word 'enslaved' that I take issue with. A
slave does not act of his free will, rather all he does is the will of
the master. Denethor was free to act of his free will, and did so. He
happened to make some bad decisions. Although some of his actions were
to Sauron's advantage, he didn't do them because Sauron told him to, as
a slave would. He remained a steadfast opponent to Sauron.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, TT Arvind <ttar...@vsnl.in> wrote:
>þus cwæð Stan Brown:
>
>> Like all the Elves, he was suspicious of Dwarves. But having made
>> them prisoner he treated them well.
>
>To make a small point which does not detract from your main argument,
>would you really say the dwarves were treated "well"? They were shut in
>solitary confinement in small cells. They did not have access to fresh
>air or (in Thorin's case) light. Thorin, at least, was kept in thongs.
>Whilst they were given enough food and drink and were therefore not
>treated inhumanly, it's going a little far to say they were well treated.
Well, relative to how they could have been treated? Yes, I
definitely think so. They were not tortured, and they were given
plenty to eat and drink.
I don't think they were actually deprived of fresh air -- the
tunnels had to have air or Bilbo and the Elven guards would have
suffocated.
Merely being held underground was no hardship for a Dwarf, after
all.
And remember that these were strangers, wandering without leave in
Thranduil's realm. They had disrupted the feasts, though I think
it's stretching things to call that hostile. But for all T. knew
they were spies. He really couldn't afford to let them go, or risk
their escape, until they gave a credible account of themselves.
>Particularly since Gollum was treated better than they were.
Not at the same time, but decades later. Perhaps they decided they
should be more lenient with prisoners. Perhaps also left no doubt
about what he was doing in their realm, whereas Thorin & Co. refused
even to discuss it.
Steuard Jensen
<Xns93DCC8678C533p...@130.133.1.4>:
> >> Bear in mind that the Battle of the Five Armies (TA 2941) and the
> >> siege of Gondor (TA 3019) were 78 years apart.
> > I'm certainly aware of that. But even after 78 years, I doubt that
> > the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were as numerous and dangerous as they
> > were immediately before the Battle of Five Armies...
> I think what the OP meant was that men (even Dunedain) have a short
> memory...
Oh, I see. I may not have been clear, then: I didn't necessarily mean
to ask "Did Denethor, Boromir, etc. know much about the Battle of Five
Armies?" but rather "Did the leaders of Gondor ever know much about
[it]?" Or perhaps even more accurately, I'm interested in the answers
to both of those questions. :) So the original poster's comment on
human forgetfulness is directly relevant to the LotR-era question but
not really relevant to the Hobbit-era version. I apologize for the
confusion.
Steuard Jensen
Pradera
loosely:
>
>> I think what the OP meant was that men (even Dunedain) have a short
>> memory...
>
> Oh, I see. I may not have been clear, then: I didn't necessarily mean
> to ask "Did Denethor, Boromir, etc. know much about the Battle of Five
> Armies?" but rather "Did the leaders of Gondor ever know much about
> [it]?"
I think not, or paid little heed to the news. Reading the chronicles, it
seems that Sauron's return was a complete surprise - not that he
returned, but the moment of his return. No preparations were made for his
coming, no defenses strengthened, nothing. Few years after Sauron's
'defeat' at Dol Guldur, he enters Mordor undisturbed. Was Turgon at all
aware of doings of White Council? Did he care? They kept in touch with
Saruman. Not so much with Gandalf. Galadriel and Elrond were songs of
distant past. I mentioned earlier that matters of the North were probably
left to Rohirrim attention, Gondor being preoccupied with things East and
South.
It is interesting to note that perhaps this lack of attention to matters
of distant lands, and what came out of it, was cause of Ecthelion II
accepting Thorongil in his service. 'He encouraged all men of worth from
near or far to enter his service' - it is noted in the chronicles,
something that wasn't done since Vidugavia's times, perhaps. So maybe
Ecthelion became aware of what his allies had done. Still, his main
interest lay south, in Umbar.
Öjevind Lång
> Jamie Armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:<3F420D91...@durham.ac.uk>...
[snip]
> > I see no reason to assume that. It seems to me that Denethor, seing the
> > power of the armies sent against him assumed that Sauron *must* already
> > have obtained the Ring.
>
> Hrrrmmm... actually this doesn't seem >significantly< different from
> what I said. My suggestion was that Denethor's despair was due to the
> assumption that Sauron was about to get the Ring. You are saying that
> Denethor assumed Sauron already had it. A matter of a minor
> difference in timing with no impact on WHY Denethor would make the
> assumption. Either way, if Sauron had mentioned the capture of the
> spies at Cirith Ungol (where Denethor knew the Ring to be) Denethor
> would naturally assume that the gig was up.
What Jamie says is supported by Denethor's statement to Pippin after he has
looked in the Palantír: "Comfort me not with wizards! The fool's hope has
failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
thoughts, and all we do is ruinous."
Öjevind
Roger Clewley
> The recent discussion of the Battle of Five Armies has gotten me
> thinking: how aware was Gondor of the events near Erebor? That battle
> was a major setback for Sauron's minions "beyond" Gondor [snip]
If Gondor were modelled on an ancient or medieval kingdom we could
probably assume that the Denethor probably had some kind of intelligence
and diplomatic service. And thus Denethor and his predescessors would
have known about the Battle of Five Armies shortly after it happened. As
in most things in Middle-earth, it is harder to be definitive here. But
some facts are in evidence, it is known that Mithrandir visited Gondor,
apparently fairly regularly, a ruler of Gondor would certainly take news
and advice from him as even Denethor did despite his hostility to the
wizard. Saruman was technically a lieutenant of the realm (for ?Dor
Haeron) and before his utter fall undoubtedly did advising and inform the
Steward of inteligence of things elsewhere.
On the downside, I believe the Emyn Muil are described as the furthest
marches of Gondor, and even then little visited. The portage route around
Rauros appears to have been abandoned. From such indications, it would
seem that Gondor had little contact, economically or otherwise with its
northern neighbours. There is mention of a highway built from the
Morannon to Dol Guldur. When this was constructed is not made clear, but
I think it is clear that any Gondorian contact with northern Rhohavion was
steadily diminishing in the century before the WoR.
> We know that the Dwarves' earlier victory at Azanulbizar sent Orcish
> refugees into Rohan, so Gondor was certainly aware of that battle, but
> it doesn't seem like the Goblin army's destruction after Smaug's death
> would have produced that kind of effect. Nevertheless, it certainly
> made a difference in the long run: if the Goblins hadn't been massively
> reduced when they were, there would have been a lot more of them not
> just to threaten the North, but to free troops to attack Lorien and even
> Rohan and Gondor in the final war. So the question is, did Gondor know
> that it had been "saved" by Dain, Bard, and Thranduil?
Certainly the orcish population had been reduced again in the North, but
not eliminated. In any event, the text of the Quest for Erebor portrays
Sauron following a 'Northern" strategy to destroy Rivendell and sources of
resistance in the northern lands. As it was, the resistance of the men of
the Vales of the Anduin (the Woodmen, (proto-)Beornings, and the remanants
of the Eotheod, etc) probably should not be under rated. Yes, there would
have been more around but i think the QE points out the loss of Smaug was
a more telling blow -- though i wonder if Smaug would have been Sauron's
to command.
>
> On another note, how much of a connection do you think Gondor had with
> the area around the Lonely Mountain at all? It doesn't sound like
> they'd had any Elvish visitors in years, and Gimli sounds like one of
> the first Dwarves to visit the area in ages, too. Were there Lake-men
> or men of Dale who went on trading missions to Minas Tirith? My
> impression is that they mainly traded down along the River Running,
> which I believe flowed into the sea of Rhun. I would then conclude that
> their primary trading partners would probably count as "Easterlings" or
> relatives of the Wainriders, which makes their independence from Sauron
> somewhat surprising. Was it the good influence of Thranduil and Dain
> that kept them free?
The status of the lands around the Sea of Rhun are so clouded as to defy
even informed speculation. What of Dorwinion and its late king
Bladorthin? Who knows which side they were on. We can assume nothing
about the political status of this area. What of the area north of Mordor
(grid reference L15-18 to N15-18) -- was it the blank slate of the
published (and unfinished) 1954 map or did it have the more evolved
geography of the First Map. It typography would affect how reasonable it
would be to assume contact through these lands between Gondor and the
lands the were included in the revived kingdom of Dale. I think it is a
reasonable deduction to think that the realms of Thranduil and Dain did
serve to limit Sauron's influence in this area.
> Would Lake-town have fallen into Sauron's orbit if people like the
> Master seen in _The Hobbit_ had remained in charge?
Without dragon gold to madden him, is there any indication in the texts
the Master, who seems to have a good relationship with the elves, would
have turned to evil? I don't think there is.
Michael Cole
[SNIP]
>> Particularly since Gollum was treated better than they were.
>
> Not at the same time, but decades later. Perhaps they decided they
> should be more lenient with prisoners. Perhaps also left no doubt
> about what he was doing in their realm, whereas Thorin & Co. refused
> even to discuss it.
IIRC, Gollum was taken to their realm by Aragorn for safekeeping, he didn't
just turn up and be captured.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Denethor's statement to Pippin after he has looked in the Palantír:
I'd argue that this particular statement supports Conrad's theory at
least as much as any other.
Denethor knew at that point all there was to know about the journey
of the Ring, and his conviction that "The Enemy has found it" could,
IMO, easily mean that he has been shown something relating
specifically to that knowledge - some kind of message that his petty
spies had been captured at Cirith Ungol (Denethor looks in the
Palantir one to two days after Frodo was caught - a bit too early to
have any physical evidence appear in Barad-dûr).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Although some of his actions were to Sauron's advantage, he didn't
> do them because Sauron told him to,
Rather, IMO, he was deceived by Sauron by a deliberate campaign of
misinformation (or rather - a deliberate campaign of giving him a
selected subset of the truth), causing him to misinterpret the
strategic situation.
> He remained a steadfast opponent to Sauron.
Which, of course, was why he burned himself in despair. Had he
become Sauron's slave he would have welcomed the victory of
Sauron, rather than despairing at the prospect.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> "Did the leaders of Gondor ever know much about[it]?"
However significant the battle may have been for the later Ringwar,
wouldn't it, at the time, have appeared rather less significant -
especially when we remember that it happened at the same time as
the ousting of Sauron from Dol Guldur (the subsequent rebuilding
of Barad-dûr and reawakening of Orodruin was 10 - 13 years after).
The information about a large battle in which many Orcs had died
(succeeding the death of an old dragon) probably reached Gondor,
but the recollection of it probably disappeared when Sauron
declared himself, started rebuilding Barad-dûr and finally Mount
Doom burst into flame once more. These events were of far more
immediate importance to Gondor, and since it was directly
connected to one event in the North ten years prior it would, IMO,
be likely to drive out from the minds of the Gondorian rulers the
other event in the North, also ten years earlier.
Conrad Dunkerson
> What Jamie says is supported by Denethor's statement to Pippin after he has
> looked in the Palantír: "Comfort me not with wizards! The fool's hope has
> failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
> thoughts, and all we do is ruinous."
Again, a small matter of timing. I agree it is possible that Denethor
thought Sauron already had the Ring... or that he believed it would
happen shortly.
Denethor knew that the Ring was near Cirith Ungol. The supposition is
that Sauron informed him that a 'spy' had been caught at Cirith Ungol
and this caused Denethor's breakdown and his words above. However,
there is no clear indication of exactly when Denethor believed Sauron
would get hold of the Ring.
To me it seems unlikely that Denethor believed Sauron already had the
Ring when they communicated by palantir (his mind would have been
snuffed out like a candle). However, he could well have assumed that
once the 'spy' was captured it was only a matter of time and that he
therefor believed Sauron had the Ring by the time he said the words
above.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Again, a small matter of timing. I agree it is possible that Denethor
> thought Sauron already had the Ring... or that he believed it would
> happen shortly.
>
> Denethor knew that the Ring was near Cirith Ungol. The supposition is
> that Sauron informed him that a 'spy' had been caught at Cirith Ungol
> and this caused Denethor's breakdown and his words above. However,
> there is no clear indication of exactly when Denethor believed Sauron
> would get hold of the Ring.
[snip]
Allow me to once more quote what Tolkien lets Denethor say after he had
looked in the Palantír: "Comfort me not with wizards! The fool's hope has
failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
thoughts, and all we do is ruinous." The operative words here are "has found
it and now his power waxes" and "he sees our very thoughts". Present tense,
not future. You yourself have stated (as does Gandalf in the book) that
Sauron could twist other people's perceptions of what they saw in the
Palantír. Apparently, he twisted Denethor's perception so much that Denethor
thought the Ring was already in Sauron's hands. If that contradicts
Tolkien's own chronology, that simply means another chronological mistake by
Tolkien to add to the others.
Tolkien was not omniscient or a God. He was fallible.
Öjevind
jsberry
that Thandruil did more to hinder than to help the anti-Sauron cause.
1) Way back when, his Mirkwood elves disobeyed Gil-Galad during
battle, exposing the allied flank and causing unnecessary allied
casualties.
2) When Isildur was ambushed, where were Thandruil's elves with their
so-called keen eyesight?
3) He imprisoned Thorin's company. He had NO reason to suspect them of
hostility. Dwarves had not threatened any elves for thousands of
years. This was ridiculous. It is interesting that the best argument
made for his treatment of the Dwarves in this thread is that "at least
he did not torture them."
4) He began an *admitted* "war for gold" against the Dwarves. The
fact that he tried to starve the Dwarves before fighting them is
hardly redeeming.
5) He let Gollum escape. He had NO IDEA it would help the cause. In
fact it very nearly got Frodo killed.
6) He withheld the largest elven army from hard-pressed Dwarves and
men during the War of the Ring. He sent only 1 single elf (Legolas)
to help the cause.
NOW, what did Thandruil do to help the cause? Well he killed a few
orcs at Erebor, but remember he went there with the purpose of a WAR
FOR GOLD AGAINST DWARVES and turned to fight the orcs instead only
because the orcs would have killed him. No better than an orc,
really.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
jsb...@yahoo.com (jsberry) wrote:
> The first challenge being met, I will return to the original statement
> that Thandruil did more to hinder than to help the anti-Sauron cause.
do you enjoy being silly
Conrad Dunkerson
> Allow me to once more quote what Tolkien lets Denethor say after he had
> looked in the Palantír: "Comfort me not with wizards! The fool's hope has
> failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
> thoughts, and all we do is ruinous." The operative words here are "has found
> it and now his power waxes" and "he sees our very thoughts". Present tense,
> not future.
Having "found it" does not mean that he HAS it. Sauron could have
"found" the Ring simply by capturing Frodo, but not yet have it in his
possession. The 'his power waxes' and 'he sees our very thoughts' are
stronger indications that Denethor is assuming that Sauron had the
Ring by that point... but if you look I said that was possible. I
don't think Denethor believed Sauron had the Ring when they were in
contact via palantir the night before. By the time of the words above
he likely assumed Sauron had it or would get it any moment... again,
quite consistent with his words.
> You yourself have stated (as does Gandalf in the book) that Sauron could
> twist other people's perceptions of what they saw in the Palantír.
Errr... I wouldn't put it quite that way. It was possible for people
to misunderstand the implications of what they saw in the palantir (as
Sauron did himself upon seeing Pippin) and since Sauron could control
what Denethor saw he had a greater chance of leading him to a mistaken
assumption.
> Apparently, he twisted Denethor's perception so much that Denethor
> thought the Ring was already in Sauron's hands.
I don't think that was possible... it is clearly stated that the
stones could not be made to lie. Sauron could not show Denethor the
Ring on Sauron's hand if it wasn't there. Nor would Sauron have any
REASON to do so since, if anything, he'd think Denethor had a better
idea of where the Ring was than he did (as indeed was true). There is
no reason for Sauron to try to 'trick' Denethor into thinking he had
the Ring... Denethor presumably knew better both because he would
likely know where the Ring REALLY was and because of the fact that
they were in mental contact and Denethor still had his own free will -
extremely unlikely if Sauron had the One. Hence my view that Sauron
showed Denethor something which led Denethor to believe Sauron was
about to >get< the Ring... that logically being the info that a spy
had been captured at Cirith Ungol.
> If that contradicts Tolkien's own chronology, that simply means another
> chronological mistake by Tolkien to add to the others.
An extremely odd one considering that HoME shows that he checked the
dates and adjusted the timing of Frodo's capture and Denethor's use of
the stone to coincide.
Öjevind Lång
> "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:<xT21b.4917$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
[snip]
> > Apparently, he twisted Denethor's perception so much that Denethor
> > thought the Ring was already in Sauron's hands.
>
> I don't think that was possible... it is clearly stated that the
> stones could not be made to lie.
I said *twist*. One can twist evidence that is true in itself.
>Sauron could not show Denethor the
> Ring on Sauron's hand if it wasn't there. Nor would Sauron have any
> REASON to do so since, if anything, he'd think Denethor had a better
> idea of where the Ring was than he did (as indeed was true). There is
> no reason for Sauron to try to 'trick' Denethor into thinking he had
> the Ring... Denethor presumably knew better both because he would
> likely know where the Ring REALLY was and because of the fact that
> they were in mental contact and Denethor still had his own free will -
> extremely unlikely if Sauron had the One. Hence my view that Sauron
> showed Denethor something which led Denethor to believe Sauron was
> about to >get< the Ring... that logically being the info that a spy
> had been captured at Cirith Ungol.
But, for the third time, that contradicts Denethor's own words in LotR,
which clearly show that Denethor is convinced that Sauron has the Ring at
that very moment.
> > If that contradicts Tolkien's own chronology, that simply means another
> > chronological mistake by Tolkien to add to the others.
>
> An extremely odd one considering that HoME shows that he checked the
> dates and adjusted the timing of Frodo's capture and Denethor's use of
> the stone to coincide.
In that case I am even more baffled by your resistance to the idea that
Denethor (as evidenced by his own words) was sure that Sauron had the Ring
*already*.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
[snip]
> Certainly the orcish population had been reduced again in the North, but
> not eliminated. In any event, the text of the Quest for Erebor portrays
> Sauron following a 'Northern" strategy to destroy Rivendell and sources of
> resistance in the northern lands. As it was, the resistance of the men of
> the Vales of the Anduin (the Woodmen, (proto-)Beornings, and the remanants
> of the Eotheod, etc) probably should not be under rated. Yes, there would
> have been more around but i think the QE points out the loss of Smaug was
> a more telling blow -- though i wonder if Smaug would have been Sauron's
> to command.
That's an interesting point. All I know is that Gandalf regarded the slaying
of Smaug as a great blow against Sauron plans. As he says somewhere, without
the quest of Thorin & Co., "there might have been no Queen in Rivendell", or
words to that effect. Personally, I think Smaug was probably more dangerous
than a division of Orcs. Though, as you, say, it is a bit mysterious that
Saron apparently could have counted on him. On the other side, his master
Morgoth could apparently bend dragons to his will, so why not his pupil?
[snip]
> The status of the lands around the Sea of Rhun are so clouded as to defy
> even informed speculation. What of Dorwinion and its late king
> Bladorthin?
I thought Dorwinion was a Mannish realm and Bladorthin an Elf. From where do
you have this other information, please?
Öjevind
Pradera
loosely:
>
> That's an interesting point. All I know is that Gandalf regarded the
> slaying of Smaug as a great blow against Sauron plans. As he says
> somewhere, without the quest of Thorin & Co., "there might have been
> no Queen in Rivendell", or words to that effect. Personally, I think
> Smaug was probably more dangerous than a division of Orcs. Though, as
> you, say, it is a bit mysterious that Saron apparently could have
> counted on him. On the other side, his master Morgoth could apparently
> bend dragons to his will, so why not his pupil?
>
>
Even without Smaug as active side, the outcome of Bo5A was more important
than just the number of orcs slain would show. Easterling invasion of
3019 met with joint forces of Men, Dwarves of Erebor and, later,
Thranduil's elves, with Erebor as main fortress. One could only guess
that songs about defence of Erebor were as glorious and popular in the
north-east as songs of Helm's Deep were in the south. Without it, all
three people would be separate, and though Dain perhaps would stand a
chance in Iron Hills (were they as fortified as Erebor was? hard to tell,
but probably not), men of Lake Town would be besieged on their wooden
island and defeated easily. And how would Smaug react to a war going on
on his doorstep?
Sauron was 'dormant' at the time of Bo5A, and his power and interest was
shifted southwards, but at his full power in 3019 he'd probably use Smaug
in the same way as he 'used' Balrog - the Dragon wouldn't even have to
know he's working for Sauron, he was just there, angry, greedy, with war
and slaughter going on near his abode. He'd gladly help finish off his
enemies Dwarves as well as Men of Dale, without Sauron bending his will
for that purpose.
Yuk Tang
>
>> Yes, there
>> would have been more around but i think the QE points out the
>> loss of Smaug was a more telling blow -- though i wonder if Smaug
>> would have been Sauron's to command.
>
> That's an interesting point. All I know is that Gandalf regarded
> the slaying of Smaug as a great blow against Sauron plans. As he
> says somewhere, without the quest of Thorin & Co., "there might
> have been no Queen in Rivendell", or words to that effect.
> Personally, I think Smaug was probably more dangerous than a
> division of Orcs. Though, as you, say, it is a bit mysterious that
> Saron apparently could have counted on him.
Smaug would have kept Durin's dwarves from having any
significant organised presence east of the mountains. Without Erebor
and Dale, Thranduil would have been vulnerable on his eastern flank,
thus deflecting his efforts from containing Dol Guldur. With Dain on
his own in the Iron Hills, the would-be alliance would have been beaten
piecemeal.
> On the other side, his
> master Morgoth could apparently bend dragons to his will, so why
> not his pupil?
Creatures that weren't under Sauron's command in the First Age didn't
seem to be in his control in the Third, either. Eg. the Moria Balrog,
Shelob, probably Smaug. However, if Sauron could breed a giant flying
fire-breathing wolf (or cat), then everything would be peachy.
--
Cheers, ymt.
Roger Clewley
"Öjevind Lång" wrote:
> "Roger Clewley" <rogerc...@telus.net> wrote:
> [snip] -- though i wonder if Smaug would have been Sauron's
> > to command.
>
> That's an interesting point. All I know is that Gandalf regarded the slaying
> of Smaug as a great blow against Sauron plans. As he says somewhere, without
> the quest of Thorin & Co., "there might have been no Queen in Rivendell", or
> words to that effect. Personally, I think Smaug was probably more dangerous
> than a division of Orcs. Though, as you, say, it is a bit mysterious that
> Saron apparently could have counted on him. On the other side, his master
> Morgoth could apparently bend dragons to his will, so why not his pupil?
>
Sauron at the time of the WoR was still quite weak. Apparently it takes a long
time to rebuild yourself even if you are immortal. With the Ring Sauron may
have commanded Smaug, without it, then I surmise that he would have had to
negotiate with the dragon as an ally (with neither side trusting the other).
> [snip]
>
> > The status of the lands around the Sea of Rhun are so clouded as to defy
> even informed speculation. What of Dorwinion and its late king Bladorthin?
>
> I thought Dorwinion was a Mannish realm and Bladorthin an Elf. From where do
> you have this other information, please?
I was being a bit glib here, so I am now forced to engage in ill-informed
speculation.
First Dorwinion: There were probably two Dorwinions, one on Tol Eresseaa and
one by the Sea of Rhun. The latter is the one of note here. Little is said of
it of the latter. The phrase "great gardens" probably should be taken to mean
it had a rich agricultural base producing a heady wine. There is no mention who
populated it. Dorwinion provided wine to Beleriand (not changed in the
post-LotR revision to the Lays) though it is hard to imagine the trade route --
though the suggestion it lay in the "burning South" probably suggests no direct
contact by the Elves with it. Perhaps, it was exported through the lands of the
Haradrim along the Great Gulf. You are right of course there is no suggestion
that King Bladorthin was its king.
Second Bladorthin: There is no indications of his 'race'. The name is
seemingly Sindarin, but that proves little. Even if it refers to an Elf, it
could be a Sindarized version of an Avaric Elvish name. Douglas Anderson in the
Annotated Hobbit suggests that Bladorthin was more likely a man than a elf, and
I think this is the most likely construction. Christopher Gilson (in VT 17)
suggested that the name probably holds the same value of the 'grey wanderer' as
the later Mithrandir. Another meaning could be the 'grey plains' , given that
many Elvish names for men were descriptive rather than their actual personal
names (eg. Uldor, Beor, etc.) it could be a name given to an 'eastern' king by
the elves of the woodland kingdom. That King Bladorthin had "armies" and was
considered "great" could suggest that he had a powerful realm. There was a long
period from the destruction of the Balchoth confederation and the the WoR. It
is possible that a kingdom arose anywhere in the plains and forests that rolled
east of the Grey Hills (Emyn Muil).
Roger
the softrat
<rogerc...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>Second Bladorthin: There is no indications of his 'race'. The name is
>east of the Grey Hills (Emyn Muil).
>
very frequently.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you
tried. -- Steven Wright
Conrad Dunkerson
> In that case I am even more baffled by your resistance to the idea that
> Denethor (as evidenced by his own words) was sure that Sauron had the Ring
> *already*.
Ok... you seem insistent on challenging me over a view I do not
actually hold. I agree about the implication of Denethor's words...
for the time at which he said them. NOT for the night before. Maybe
a recap of the discussion will clear this up;
Me: "Based on the timing and Denethor's words to Gandalf I have
previously
argued that it seems likely that Sauron let Denethor know that he had
captured some 'spies' at Cirith Ungol... not realizing just HOW
depressing that news would be to Denethor."
Note that I did not actually say whether Denethor believed Sauron
already had or would get the Ring.
Jamie: "I see no reason to assume that. It seems to me that Denethor,
seing the power of the armies sent against him assumed that Sauron
*must* already have obtained the Ring."
Me: "Hrrrmmm... actually this doesn't seem >significantly< different
from
what I said. My suggestion was that Denethor's despair was due to the
assumption that Sauron was about to get the Ring. You are saying that
Denethor assumed Sauron already had it. A matter of a minor
difference in timing with no impact on WHY Denethor would make the
assumption."
Here I point out that despite the fact that Jamie is disagreeing I
really don't see a significant difference. My intent (unstated) had
been that when they were in contact Denethor thought Sauron was about
to get the Ring while Jamie's statements above would indicate that
Denethor thought Sauron already had it AT THAT TIME (not later with
the passage you keep referencing). I don't agree with >that< bit...
that Denethor thought Sauron had the Ring while they were in contact.
You: "What Jamie says is supported by Denethor's statement to Pippin
after he has looked in the Palantír: 'Comfort me not with wizards! The
fool's hope has failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power
waxes; he sees our very thoughts, and all we do is ruinous.'"
Again, note the minor difference in timing... this is the day after
the event that Jamie and I had been discussing.
Me: "To me it seems unlikely that Denethor believed Sauron already had
the Ring when they communicated by palantir (his mind would have been
snuffed out like a candle). However, he could well have assumed that
once the 'spy' was captured it was only a matter of time and that he
therefor believed Sauron had the Ring by the time he said the words
above."
Notice how this AGREES with your argument >for the time Denethor said
it<.
You: "Allow me to once more quote what Tolkien lets Denethor say after
he had
looked in the Palantír: <snip quotation> The operative words here are
<snip quotations>. Present tense, not future. You yourself have stated
(as does Gandalf in the book) that Sauron could twist other people's
perceptions of what they saw in the Palantír. Apparently, he twisted
Denethor's perception so much that Denethor thought the Ring was
already in Sauron's hands."
Now here you quote Denethor's statements from the following day, but
then turn around and say that Sauron must have 'twisted' Denethor's
perception the night before into thinking Sauron had the Ring THEN.
Me: "I don't think Denethor believed Sauron had the Ring when they
were in contact via palantir the night before. By the time of the
words above he likely assumed Sauron had it or would get it any
moment... again, quite consistent with his words."
And that brings us up to the present. I am not disputing Denethor's
words. I agree that he was saying that Sauron had the Ring - though I
include the possibility that he merely thought this was inevitable and
that Sauron may or may not have it in his actual possession at that
moment (which IS still 'present tense' and consistent with what
Denethor said). What I do NOT agree with is the claim that this
indicates Denethor thought Sauron already had the Ring >the night
before<. As I said, a trivial matter of timing not at all worth the
amount of dispute it has inconceivably generated.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Creatures that weren't under Sauron's command in the First Age didn't
> seem to be in his control in the Third, either. Eg. the Moria Balrog
Actually, there is at least one passage specifically putting Sauron in
command of Balrogs during the First Age and others which would imply
it. He led a force of Balrogs to take Tol Sirion and commanded
Angband (where Balrogs were stated to be) during Morgoth's absence.
It was 'deputized' command, but he definitely 'outranked' them.
Pradera
scribbled loosely:
>> Creatures that weren't under Sauron's command in the First Age didn't
>> seem to be in his control in the Third, either. Eg. the Moria Balrog
>
> Actually, there is at least one passage specifically putting Sauron in
> command of Balrogs during the First Age and others which would imply
> it. He led a force of Balrogs to take Tol Sirion and commanded
> Angband (where Balrogs were stated to be) during Morgoth's absence.
> It was 'deputized' command, but he definitely 'outranked' them.
I think the question is whether Sauron commanded the Moria Balrog
specifically. Sauron could've get command over a specific troop of Balrogs
for a specific task, but he wasn't in charge of the 'Balrog Corps' - that
was a job of Gothmog. ( - were Sauron and Gothmog of equal rank?). Sauron
was IIRC a Wolf-Werewolf Lord, right?
Conrad Dunkerson
> First Dorwinion: There were probably two Dorwinions, one on Tol Eresseaa and
> one by the Sea of Rhun.
Possibly three. Given that Dorwinion wine was transported to
Beleriand by the Dwarves it seems unlikely that they were getting it
from Valinor. It is possible that the Third Age Dorwinion was already
in existence in the First Age and the Dwarves were bringing the wine
from there, but then it would seem more likely to be described as
being in the 'distant East' than the "burning South". If it wasn't
Valinor or the Sea of Rhun than there would have to have been a third
Dorwinion... or more likely Tolkien just re-used the name a few times
and never worked out the details.
Pradera
scribbled loosely:
>> First Dorwinion: There were probably two Dorwinions, one on Tol
>> Eresseaa and
>> one by the Sea of Rhun.
>
> Possibly three. Given that Dorwinion wine was transported to
> Beleriand by the Dwarves it seems unlikely that they were getting it
> from Valinor. It is possible that the Third Age Dorwinion was already
> in existence in the First Age and the Dwarves were bringing the wine
> from there, but then it would seem more likely to be described as
> being in the 'distant East' than the "burning South". If it wasn't
> Valinor or the Sea of Rhun than there would have to have been a third
> Dorwinion... or more likely Tolkien just re-used the name a few times
> and never worked out the details.
But compared to Beleriand, if Dorwinion was in the hills around Rhun (it
has to be hills to grow good wine) it _would_ be 'South' of Beleriand.
East, too, but then most of the stuff Belerianders got from Dwarves would
be from east, so perhaps they learned to make a distinction. This is
called good marketing ;) 'Get thine Dorwinion wines from Burning South!
Accept only originals!'
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote:
> Roger Clewley <rogerc...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:<3F456234...@telus.net>...
>
> > First Dorwinion: There were probably two Dorwinions, one on Tol
Eresseaa and
> > one by the Sea of Rhun.
>
> Possibly three. Given that Dorwinion wine was transported to
maybe dorwinion is a generic term for any wine producing region
AC
Jamie Armstrong
> "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message news:<WJb1b.4980$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
<snip>
Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
Jamie
--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Bill O'Meally
"Jamie Armstrong" <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3F475BAB...@durham.ac.uk...
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> > "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:<WJb1b.4980$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
> <snip>
>
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion!
I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
My condolences to you and your family, Jamie.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
David Flood
> > "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message news:<WJb1b.4980$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
> <snip>
>
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
Sorry for your loss, as we say over here.
David
Öjevind Lång
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
My condolences, Jamie.
Öjevind
Kristian Damm Jensen
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>
>> "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
>> news:<WJb1b.4980$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
My condolences to you and your family.
Having lost my own father only a few month ago, I know how you must feel.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen
damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
Jette Goldie
> > "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:<WJb1b.4980$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
> <snip>
>
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
Sympathies, Jamie
--
"Weep not for the dead, for the dead feel no pain
Grieve only for the living, who heal to hurt again."
Troels Forchhammer
>
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really). Hopefully I'll be back next week.
My condolences.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
People demand freedom of speech to make up for
the freedom of thought which they avoid.
Soren Kierkegaard
Conrad Dunkerson
> Trust me to have to be absent when there's an interesting discussion! I
> would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral
Sorry to hear that Jamie.
Jim Deutch
<rogerc...@telus.net> wrote:
>about the political status of this area. What of the area north of Mordor
>(grid reference L15-18 to N15-18) -- was it the blank slate of the
>published (and unfinished) 1954 map or did it have the more evolved
>geography of the First Map. It typography would affect how reasonable it
>would be to assume contact through these lands between Gondor and the
>lands the were included in the revived kingdom of Dale.
Its font and typeface are of great importance as well...
Jim Deutch
--
"People tell me one thing and out the other."
David Flood
Irony?
D.
TradeSurplus
True, the presence of irony mines would be a clear indicator of an advanced
civilization in that region, though whether that would help or hinder
contact between Gondor and Dale would depend on the allegiance of that
civilization.
Trade.
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
>Did Lake-town have much to do with dwarves, except
> singing old songs about them?
I don't think so. Since the destruction of Erebor by Smaug, I doubt any
Dwarves had gone back. There certainly wouldn't have been any reason too
except for such a journey as Thorin and Company took and that seems to have
been unique. In addition, the people of Lake-Town seemed to be completely
amazed by the appearance of the Dwarves in TH. Most accepted without
question that they were who they said they were and that they were going to
"save the day". Many seemed to expect the river to start flowing with gold
at any moment after they showed up. Indeed, the very existence of Dwarves
(or even the dragon!) seems to have become a matter of legend for most of
the younger inhabitants.
{snip}
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Ermanna
Jamie Armstrong made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
<shnip>
> at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral
Oh, I'm sorry, Jamie!
<hug>
<shnip>
> Jamie
>
> --
> "The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
> every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
> characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
> appearance of either merit or sense."
>
> Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Imladris,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles,
Protector of Kittens and Hamsters, Wielder of Tinwė and Smiter,
Warrior Princess of AFT/RABT
You've read too much fantasy when you read "spell-checker"
and you think of checking magic spells for flaws.
Jamie Armstrong
Many thanks to David, Bill, Ojevind, Jette, Kristian, Troels, Conrad and
Ermanna for all your sympathy - it reall is appreciated. The funeral was
yesterday, and was quite a relief: it's just such a stressful thing to
have to deal with. Hopefully I'll be back in Durham early next week.
Troels Forchhammer
>
> Many thanks to David, Bill, Ojevind, Jette, Kristian, Troels, Conrad
> and Ermanna for all your sympathy - it reall is appreciated. The
> funeral was yesterday, and was quite a relief: it's just such a
> stressful thing to have to deal with. Hopefully I'll be back in
> Durham early next week.
I remember when we buried my father eight years ago. His funeral was
on a Friday, and the following Sunday we were back in the church for
a baptising of the son of one of our friends - that was a peculiar,
but very confirming experience.
A couple of months later we had our second child ourselves (who was
not named after my father - I wasn't going to burden the poor boy
with that ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Steuard Jensen
<3F475BAB...@durham.ac.uk>:
> I would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
> arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
> inclination, really).
You have my deep sympathy as well. (And I apologize for not saying so
sooner, but better late than never, I hope.)
Steuard Jensen
Jamie Armstrong
> Jamie Armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<3F420D91...@durham.ac.uk>...
>
> > Yes, I disagree profoundly. As stated in UT Denethor, not Sauron, had
> > the legal authority to use the stone, which means that Sauron absolutely
> > could *not* prevent Denethor seeing whatever he wanted using the stone.
>
> Errr... ok, gotta disagree. Yes, Denethor had a 'legal' right to use
> the stone. No, that did not mean that he could automatically
> overpower Sauron and view whatever he wanted to... and there are
> direct statements to the contrary;
>
> "He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw
> nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see."
> RotK, The Pyre of Denethor
>
I think this depends on how you read "permitted him to see" - you can
control that either by controling the stones, or else by controling
what it is the stones see (which is my interpretation of what Sauron
did). To support this:
"Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of
distant events by use of the Anor-stone alone, and even after Sauron
became aware of his ooperations he could still do so, as long as he
retained the strength to control his Stone to his own purposes, in
spite of Sauron's attempt to 'wrench' the Anor-stone always towards
himself. It must also be considered that the stones were only a small
item in Sauron's vast designs and operations: a means of dominating
and deluding two of his opponents..."
(UT, The Palantiri, p.407)
So Tolkien clearly did intend for Denethor to be able to see whatever
he chose using the stone, as long as he was able to overpower Sauron:
"In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, EVEN AGAINST
SAURON HIMSELF [my emphasis], by the fact that the Stones were far
more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true 'Heirs of
Elendil' (as Aragorn), but also to one with inhereited authority (as
Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron. It may be noted that the
effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron
and desired his victory, or no longer able to oppose it. Denethor
remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe
that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair."
(UT, The Palantiri, p.407-8)
Clearly having the 'legal' right (as you put it) *did* mean that he
could overpower Sauron's will, providing he also had enough strength
of will - Denethor did not need to be stronger than Sauron (how could
he be?); he had only to be strong enough, and then the natural
authority he held meant that the Stone would do the rest. That's my
reading, anyway.
> > Sauron could achieve a similar effect by making his forces appear much
> > larger than they were: build camps; ostentatiously march units here there
> > and everywhere; bring the Corsairs up). Denethor's mind was by this stage
> > rather fragile, and so he would probably look through the stone to Mordor,
> > and see huge camps and units marching everywhere, and not look any closer,
> > to see that the camps were half full, or that the unit he was watching was
> > poorly equipped.
>
> Again, I would dispute this interpretation because we are told that
> Sauron could choose what others would see AND specifically that the
> size of the enemy armies was NOT faked;
>
> "The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur
> can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things
> shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of
> what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when Denethor saw
> great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being
> gathered, he saw that which truly is."
> RotK, The Last Debate
>
> The first part of this description could be consistent with what you
> said above about deception... 'cause them to mistake the meaning'.
> However, Gandalf then turns around and says flat out that Sauron
> really does have armies that big...
I don't think it does, really. The first part seems to be saying that
to lesser minds Sauron did not even have to *show* them anything - he
could simply overpower their will, and make them *believe* they saw
something. And it is supported by :
"Sauron failed to dominate [Denethor] and could only influence him by
deceits."
(UT, The Palantiri, p.408)
What deceits, if not presenting to Denethor scenes which suggested
that he was stronger than he really was? I think that "when Denethor
saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being
gathered, he saw that which truly is" can be taken to read that while
Denethor certain did see vast forces arrayed against him, and while
those forces were certainly strong, they weren't nearly as vast nor as
strong as Sauron was *pretending*.
> which is also stated by the
> 'narrator' of the story. And this passage again says that Sauron
> could control/choose what others would see. The whole point of what
> was different with Aragorn was that as 'legal OWNER' he was able to
> wrench the palantir AWAY from Sauron's control and view whatever he
> liked.
>
But Denethor *also* had the inherited right to use the Stone (as is
stated above): that is how he was able to use it right from when his
reign began, without any peril - as soon as he became Steward in 2984
he started to use the Stone "at once" (UT, The Palantiri, p.407). Yet
his fall doesn't happen until the very end in 3019 - as far as I can
see you cannot reconcile this with the idea that Sauron was always
controling the Stone when Denethor used it. If he had been, he would
surely have made Denethor look to Barad-dur, and then have broken him.
Instead:
"Confrontation with Sauron almost certainly did not occur for many
years and was probably never contemplated by Denethor."
(UT, The Palantiri, p.407)
According to your interpretation this could never be: Denethor would
have been forced into the confrontation much sooner.
> > I see no reason to assume that. It seems to me that Denethor, seing the
> > power of the armies sent against him assumed that Sauron *must* already
> > have obtained the Ring.
>
> Hrrrmmm... actually this doesn't seem >significantly< different from
> what I said. My suggestion was that Denethor's despair was due to the
> assumption that Sauron was about to get the Ring. You are saying that
> Denethor assumed Sauron already had it. A matter of a minor
> difference in timing with no impact on WHY Denethor would make the
> assumption. Either way, if Sauron had mentioned the capture of the
> spies at Cirith Ungol (where Denethor knew the Ring to be) Denethor
> would naturally assume that the gig was up.
Hmmm... not sure about the timing there - I don't think it's feasible:
Denethor looks into the stone for the last time when the siege had
just begun. Frodo and Sam escape from Cirith Ungol soon after the
Witch King has been slain. That leaves perhaps a couple of hours for
Gorbag to reach Barad-dur with news of the capture, which just can't
be possible given the length of time it took Frodo and Sam to reach
Orodruin. So I don't believe your assumption is correct.
Alternatively, perhaps Denethor had seen Frodo's capture by the orcs
in the Stone (it can see through mountains, and there must have been
a small amount of light for him to see by. In which case he would have
assumed that the Ring would be in Sauron's possession before too long
(although as Ojevind pointed out this does not appear to fit with "The
Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
thoughts, and all we do is ruinous." - Denethor here quite clearly
believes that Sauron has the Ring *already* AND is using it.
Jamie
Brenda Selwyn
And mine also Jamie. Sorry for the belatedness, I've been away and
it's taking me a while to catch up.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
I may look in on this thread again before it is all over, but in
the meanwhile I have some other pressing business to attend to.
Conrad Dunkerson
> So Tolkien clearly did intend for Denethor to be able to see whatever
> he chose using the stone, as long as he was able to overpower Sauron:
Ok, I agree that Denethor was >sometimes< able to control the palantir
to view events as he wished. Just not that he was always able to do
so or that Sauron deceived him by getting the palantir to show 'false'
things.
> Clearly having the 'legal' right (as you put it) *did* mean that he
> could overpower Sauron's will, providing he also had enough strength
> of will - Denethor did not need to be stronger than Sauron (how could
> he be?); he had only to be strong enough, and then the natural
> authority he held meant that the Stone would do the rest.
I think you are suggesting something like;
If Denethor Will + Legal Authority > Amount to Control Palantir
then Denethor automatically controls palantir despite Sauron
Whereas I view it as more like;
If Denethor Will + Legal Authority > Sauron Will
then Denethor controls palantir for now
In any case, my understanding is that Denethor could view what he
wanted to sometimes and other times Sauron would take control and only
let Denethor see those things he wanted.
> The first part seems to be saying that to lesser minds Sauron did not
> even have to *show* them anything - he could simply overpower their will,
> and make them *believe* they saw something.
How do you get by;
"The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur
can make them do so."
Doesn't this directly contradict what you are suggesting?
> "Sauron failed to dominate [Denethor] and could only influence him by
> deceits."
> (UT, The Palantiri, p.408)
> What deceits, if not presenting to Denethor scenes which suggested
> that he was stronger than he really was?
Well, the palantir also allowed communication. Sauron could simply
TELL Denethor things which would deceive him.
> According to your interpretation this could never be: Denethor would
> have been forced into the confrontation much sooner.
There seems to have been an 'orientation' issue. Once two palantir
were 'connected' it could require a struggle to 'disconnect' them.
Aragorn clearly had to wrench the Orthanc stone away from Sauron.
Denethor's stone was not originally 'connected' to the Ithil stone and
thus he could look about as he wished until Sauron eventually made
contact.
> Hmmm... not sure about the timing there - I don't think it's feasible:
> Denethor looks into the stone for the last time when the siege had
> just begun. Frodo and Sam escape from Cirith Ungol soon after the
> Witch King has been slain. That leaves perhaps a couple of hours for
> Gorbag to reach Barad-dur with news of the capture, which just can't
> be possible given the length of time it took Frodo and Sam to reach
> Orodruin. So I don't believe your assumption is correct.
Frodo was captured the morning of March 13th and Denethor looked into
the palantir that night. Sauron had definitely received a message
about spies being on the stairs and ordered troops sent out to capture
them. That alone gives Sauron sufficient information to seriously
depress Denethor. However, you also overlook that a Nazgul was
landing at Cirith Ungol as Frodo and Sam made their escape. That the
Nazgul was there seems likely to indicate that Sauron had already
received news of the capture... and even if he somehow had not then
the Nazgul would certainly have been able to inform him alot sooner
than Gorbag could.
Further, it should be noted that in earlier drafts Denethor in his
madness spoke only of the vast armies arrayed against Gondor. Then
later the date of Frodo's capture was changed to precede Denethor's
use of the palantir and the two bits implying that Denethor believed
Sauron had recovered the Ring were added. It is possible these
changes were unconnected, but I don't think that is the case.
> Alternatively, perhaps Denethor had seen Frodo's capture by the orcs
> in the Stone (it can see through mountains, and there must have been
> a small amount of light for him to see by. In which case he would have
> assumed that the Ring would be in Sauron's possession before too long
This seems to be exactly the argument I am making EXCEPT that you
attribute it to Denethor discovering Frodo's capture while controlling
the stone himself rather than being shown or told of it by Sauron.
> (although as Ojevind pointed out this does not appear to fit with "The
> Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
> thoughts, and all we do is ruinous." - Denethor here quite clearly
> believes that Sauron has the Ring *already* AND is using it.
Again, different times. You say above "before too long", but then
claim this is contradicted by Denethor's statements the next day. Is
that not 'before too long'? Couldn't he have assumed that the Ring
had come into Sauron's actual possession between the times that he
looked into the palantir and committed suicide?
If we are all agreed that Denethor believed Sauron had or would get
the Ring very shortly I really don't see how there can be much debate.
Denethor knew that Sauron did NOT have the Ring just a few days
earlier. Ergo, he knew that whatever armies were arrayed against him
were >not< because of the Ring... they couldn't just spring up out of
nowhere the moment Sauron recovered it. The only logical reason I can
see for Denethor now believing that Sauron had the Ring would be if he
knew that Frodo had been (or was going to be) captured. Indeed, how
else is the Ring supposed to get from Frodo to Sauron?
Gunnar Krüger
Newsbeitrag news:1178b6d1.03090...@posting.google.com...
> There seems to have been an 'orientation' issue. Once two palantir
> were 'connected' it could require a struggle to 'disconnect' them.
> Aragorn clearly had to wrench the Orthanc stone away from Sauron.
> Denethor's stone was not originally 'connected' to the Ithil stone and
> thus he could look about as he wished until Sauron eventually made
> contact.
Hm, I always thought that Denethor's stone was even more closely in rapport
with Sauron's than Saruman's. After all, LotR states repeatedly that the
stones of Minas Arnor and Minas Ithil were originally most closely linked
since they were the stones of Anarion and Isildur.
Gunnar
--
Impunity, n. - Wealth.
[Ambrose Bierce: The Devil's Dictionary]
Troels Forchhammer
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
>
<snip>
> Ok, I agree that Denethor was >sometimes< able to control the palantir
> to view events as he wished. Just not that he was always able to do
> so or that Sauron deceived him by getting the palantir to show 'false'
> things.
A couple of Palantir questions:
I wonder how it worked?
Looking at a given location seems to me from the explanation in UT to
depend on how the surveyor positioned himself relative to the stone -
what, then, would happen when Denethor tried to look at something
Sauron didn't want him to see? He wouldn't see a false image, because,
as you note, not even Sauron could make the seeing stones lie, but
would Denethor then see a shrouded place, or would he see something
else that was in that direction, but which Sauron didn't mind him
seeing? At first it would appear logical that Sauron would merely
shroud the places he didn't want Denethor to see, but that would,
I believe, alert Denethor to Sauron's tactics in which case it might
even help Denethor more than knowing what went on at the place?
Or is it more likely that Sauron somehow caused Denethor to
misinterpret what he saw when they confronted in the stones?
Sauron, according to UT, tried to "'wrench' the Anor-stone always
towards himself." but how is that possible given the way the surveyor
had to orient himself to look in the stone.
The American
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
news:o4s5b.11703$g4.2...@news1.nokia.com...
> in <1178b6d1.03090...@posting.google.com>,
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> > Ok, I agree that Denethor was >sometimes< able to control the palantir
> > to view events as he wished. Just not that he was always able to do
> > so or that Sauron deceived him by getting the palantir to show 'false'
> > things.
>
> A couple of Palantir questions:
>
>
> I wonder how it worked?
> Looking at a given location seems to me from the explanation in UT to
> depend on how the surveyor positioned himself relative to the stone -
> what, then, would happen when Denethor tried to look at something
> Sauron didn't want him to see? He wouldn't see a false image, because,
> as you note, not even Sauron could make the seeing stones lie, but
> would Denethor then see a shrouded place, or would he see something
> else that was in that direction, but which Sauron didn't mind him
> seeing?
Sauron himself had to be using the Stone at the same time as Denethor for
Sauron to even be aware of him.
Plus Denethor had to *allow* the contact between himself and Sauron.
So Denethor got alot of good information using the Stone until the time he
confronted Sauron within the Stones.
Not sure when this was but I do remember reading that Denethor's wife saw a
change in him shortly after he started to use the Stone.
And didn't the strain of confronting Sauron using the Stone prematurly age
Denethor?
IMHO I don't think Sauron ever impeded Denethor from seeing anything!
Sauron had everything in his favor.
Gondor was a lost cause.
Denethor saw the whole East coming his way.
I would think that would be enough despair for anybody.
T.A.
Jamie Armstrong
>>sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
>
>>Quoth Jamie Armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> in article
>><3F475BAB...@durham.ac.uk>:
>>
>>>I would partake in this (I've not run away!), but at the moment I'm
>>>arranging my father's funeral and just haven't got the time (or the
>>>inclination, really).
>>
>>You have my deep sympathy as well. (And I apologize for not saying so
>>sooner, but better late than never, I hope.)
>> Steuard Jensen
>
>
> And mine also Jamie. Sorry for the belatedness, I've been away and
> it's taking me a while to catch up.
>
David Flood
Somehow I suspect that Denethor would have missed the significance of irony.
D.
Raven
news:e9276b66.03090...@posting.google.com...
> Somehow I suspect that Denethor would have missed the significance of
> irony.
Unless wielded by himself. He had a sharp tongue, the old steward.
Crú.
j d armstrong
> Jamie.A...@dunelm.org.uk (Jamie Armstrong) wrote in message
news:<4916cbdc.03090...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
>>So Tolkien clearly did intend for Denethor to be able to see whatever
>>he chose using the stone, as long as he was able to overpower Sauron:
>
>
> Ok, I agree that Denethor was >sometimes< able to control the palantir
> to view events as he wished. Just not that he was always able to do
> so
Which is where we disagree: there is no evidence to suggest that Sauron
ever controlled what Denethor saw - the assumption on your part is that
the very last time Denethor used the Stone Sauron somehow made Denethor
believe he was doomed. But if you simply read what he says in RotK then
there's no reason to make such an assumption: Denethor's two chief
statements (about Sauron having found the Ring, and about the Corsairs
sailing up the Anduin) are based on assumptions made by Denethor from
evidence he has acquired through use of the Stones. I see no reason to
assume that they relate to any intervention on the part of Sauron.
Consider the facts: Denethor's surviving child lay mortally stricken,
and his city was surrounded and on the verge of defeat. This created
total despair on the part of Denethor - there's no need to believe in
Sauron playing any part in that. Then he turned to the Stone, perhaps
hoping to see some glimmer of hope, but instead he sees Sauron on the
point of victory, with Cair Andros also taken, no sign of the Riders of
Rohan (I would guess that he looked to the open road from the west,
rather than to the forest in which they were travelling), and a large
fleet of Corsairs sailing towards the city, apparently bringing final
doom. Sauron did not control any of this - the Stone simply showed him
that which truly was. Had Denethor looked closer he may have noticed
that the slaves on the galleys were unchained, or the Riders in the
forest, but he didn't, because as far as he could see there was no point.
> or that Sauron deceived him by getting the palantir to show 'false'
> things.
>
Define 'false'. He couldn't show illusions (because it seems the Stones
see straight through those, but he could mislead him by fiddling with
the evidence that Denethor observed and that Sauron controlled. That's
not a false image - it's just showing you what there is to see.
A modern-day example: in the Falklands war the RAF sent a squadron of
Vulcans to bomb Port Stanly airfield. Aerial photos indicated that the
raid was successfuly: bomb-craters littered the airfield, and went right
across the runway, thus denying use of it to the Argentinians. It was
only *after* the liberation of the islands that the British forces
discovered that in fact the runway was perfectly sound, and that the
Argentinians had simply faked some craters...
My point is that the RAF saw what appeared to be craters, but were in
fact just round piles of earth. Had they had a Palantir, then they would
have seen exactly the same thing, because that is what there was to see.
>>Clearly having the 'legal' right (as you put it) *did* mean that he
>>could overpower Sauron's will, providing he also had enough strength
>>of will - Denethor did not need to be stronger than Sauron (how could
>>he be?); he had only to be strong enough, and then the natural
>>authority he held meant that the Stone would do the rest.
>
>
> I think you are suggesting something like;
>
> If Denethor Will + Legal Authority > Amount to Control Palantir
> then Denethor automatically controls palantir despite Sauron
>
Yes.
> Whereas I view it as more like;
>
> If Denethor Will + Legal Authority > Sauron Will
> then Denethor controls palantir for now
>
I don't see why you need to introduce Sauron's Will into the equation.
Leave it out, and you are saying exactly the same thing.
> In any case, my understanding is that Denethor could view what he
> wanted to sometimes and other times Sauron would take control and only
> let Denethor see those things he wanted.
>
When? Give me some examples.
>>The first part seems to be saying that to lesser minds Sauron did not
>>even have to *show* them anything - he could simply overpower their will,
>>and make them *believe* they saw something.
>
> How do you get by;
>
> "The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur
> can make them do so."
>
> Doesn't this directly contradict what you are suggesting?
>
Not at all: the *Stones* can't be made to lie: they show only what there
is to see, no more and no less. I'm suggesting that Sauron could *use*
the Stones to dominate an opponent, and make them believe what he wanted
them to believe (providing they were not strong enough to use the Stone
of course). We know that communication was 'telepathic' - why then could
Sauron not use the Stones to actually take control of a weaker mind
(such as Saruman), and make them believe that his victory was inevitable
(something along those lines seems to have happened to Saruman)?
>
>>"Sauron failed to dominate [Denethor] and could only influence him by
>>deceits."
>>(UT, The Palantiri, p.408)
>
>
>>What deceits, if not presenting to Denethor scenes which suggested
>>that he was stronger than he really was?
>
>
> Well, the palantir also allowed communication. Sauron could simply
> TELL Denethor things which would deceive him.
>
And Denethor would of course believe that his arch-enemy was telling the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
>
>>According to your interpretation this could never be: Denethor would
>>have been forced into the confrontation much sooner.
>
>
> There seems to have been an 'orientation' issue. Once two palantir
> were 'connected' it could require a struggle to 'disconnect' them.
> Aragorn clearly had to wrench the Orthanc stone away from Sauron.
> Denethor's stone was not originally 'connected' to the Ithil stone and
> thus he could look about as he wished until Sauron eventually made
> contact.
>
I don't see where you get that from. Pippin was just unlucky when he
used the Stone: he happened to set it the right way up and in the
correct orientation, and he just happened to be aligned with Barad-dur
when he looked into it. Whereas Aragorn deliberately set out to
challenge Sauron, and to provoke him into acting more quickly. Saruman
was weaker than Sauron, and had no right to use the Stone, so he wasn't
able to break contact with the Dark Tower once it had been made. Aragon
was, and I see no reason to assume that Denethor was not as well.
>
>>Hmmm... not sure about the timing there - I don't think it's feasible:
>>Denethor looks into the stone for the last time when the siege had
>>just begun. Frodo and Sam escape from Cirith Ungol soon after the
>>Witch King has been slain. That leaves perhaps a couple of hours for
>>Gorbag to reach Barad-dur with news of the capture, which just can't
>>be possible given the length of time it took Frodo and Sam to reach
>>Orodruin. So I don't believe your assumption is correct.
>
>
> Frodo was captured the morning of March 13th and Denethor looked into
> the palantir that night. Sauron had definitely received a message
> about spies being on the stairs and ordered troops sent out to capture
> them.
Errr... no. It was the Nazgul at Minas Morgul that gave the orders to
patrol the stairs, not Sauron. And that makes sense, because it implies
Sam and Frodo disturbed something on their way through which led to
their being noticed.
> That alone gives Sauron sufficient information to seriously
> depress Denethor.
It doesn't because your time-frame is wrong.
> However, you also overlook that a Nazgul was
> landing at Cirith Ungol as Frodo and Sam made their escape. That the
> Nazgul was there seems likely to indicate that Sauron had already
> received news of the capture...
Yes, from Gorbag.
> and even if he somehow had not then
> the Nazgul would certainly have been able to inform him alot sooner
> than Gorbag could.
>
Certainly they could, but since their chief occupation at the time was
the invasion of Gondor, I sincerely doubt they would have bothered
informing Sauron of a few harmless spies: there were much more important
things for him to worry about. Therefore I draw the conclusion that
Minas Morgul was acting on its own initiative, and that the first news
to reach Lugburz of these spies came from Gorbag (either directly or
indirectly). The Nazgul clearly didn't think there was anything to fear,
as they only sent Orcs, but Sauron was obviously more concerned, as he
sent a Nazgul to deal with the situation (just too late).
> Further, it should be noted that in earlier drafts Denethor in his
> madness spoke only of the vast armies arrayed against Gondor. Then
> later the date of Frodo's capture was changed to precede Denethor's
> use of the palantir and the two bits implying that Denethor believed
> Sauron had recovered the Ring were added. It is possible these
> changes were unconnected, but I don't think that is the case.
>
Interesting. I shall have to have a look at that (providing it's not in
Sauron Defeated, which someone has stolen from me....).
>
>>Alternatively, perhaps Denethor had seen Frodo's capture by the orcs
>>in the Stone (it can see through mountains, and there must have been
>>a small amount of light for him to see by. In which case he would have
>>assumed that the Ring would be in Sauron's possession before too long
>
>
> This seems to be exactly the argument I am making EXCEPT that you
> attribute it to Denethor discovering Frodo's capture while controlling
> the stone himself rather than being shown or told of it by Sauron.
>
Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression: my personal opinion is
that I don't think that Denethor knew Frodo had been captured. I was
simply presenting variations on you assumtion, which was why I stated
after this that Ojevind had shown this not to be the case.
>
>>(although as Ojevind pointed out this does not appear to fit with "The
>>Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very
>>thoughts, and all we do is ruinous." - Denethor here quite clearly
>>believes that Sauron has the Ring *already* AND is using it.
>
> Again, different times. You say above "before too long", but then
> claim this is contradicted by Denethor's statements the next day. Is
> that not 'before too long'?
See my remarks above.
> Couldn't he have assumed that the Ring
> had come into Sauron's actual possession between the times that he
> looked into the palantir and committed suicide?
>
I don't think so: the catalyst for his suicide clearly comes from
looking into the Stone. Perhaps he *did* see Frodo being captured, but I
doubt it - my belief is that it was the Corsair fleet that pushed him
over the edge, and that from everything else he saw in the Stone he drew
the conclusion that Sauron had the Ring already.
>
> If we are all agreed that Denethor believed Sauron had or would get
> the Ring very shortly I really don't see how there can be much debate.
> Denethor knew that Sauron did NOT have the Ring just a few days
> earlier. Ergo, he knew that whatever armies were arrayed against him
> were >not< because of the Ring... they couldn't just spring up out of
> nowhere the moment Sauron recovered it. The only logical reason I can
> see for Denethor now believing that Sauron had the Ring would be if he
> knew that Frodo had been (or was going to be) captured. Indeed, how
> else is the Ring supposed to get from Frodo to Sauron?
And that's the area that's up for debate: you make the assumption that
Denethor *knew* that Frodo had been captured, whereas I think he simply
guessed that he had. It's a moot point, as we have no idea what he saw
in the Stone, we can only guess.
Conrad Dunkerson
> Which is where we disagree: there is no evidence to suggest that Sauron
> ever controlled what Denethor saw
We REALLY disagree. Indeed, I think the view that Saruon controlled
what Denethor saw through the palantir is a very common one supported
by solid evidence in the text.
> - the assumption on your part is that the very last time Denethor used the
> Stone Sauron somehow made Denethor believe he was doomed.
Parsing this a bit... I think we agree that looking into the stone
led to Denethor believing he was doomed. The disagreement is over
whether/how Sauron led him to that conclusion. I believe Sauron
somehow let Denethor know that he was aware of spies at Cirith Ungol.
You believe that Denethor simply saw the size of Sauron's armies.
Correct?
> I don't see why you need to introduce Sauron's Will into the equation.
Because Aragorn had to struggle to wrest the palantir away from
Sauron's will. Why would Denethor be able to do it without worrying
about Sauron at all when Aragorn could not?
> When? Give me some examples.
Towards the end of Denethor's use of the palantir. The exact
instances are not named, but it seems clearly indicated that Sauron
became aware of Denethor's use of the stone and bent his will to
control what Denethor could see.
> Not at all: the *Stones* can't be made to lie: they show only what there
> is to see, no more and no less. I'm suggesting that Sauron could *use*
> the Stones to dominate an opponent, and make them believe what he wanted
> them to believe (providing they were not strong enough to use the Stone
> of course).
So... the stones cannot be made to lie, but they can be used to make
you think you saw things that you really didn't? It REALLY seems a
stretch to me... along with the 'Sauron used tricks to make his armies
seem bigger than they were'. Especially since immediately afterwards
Gandalf says that what Denethor saw was true... Sauron really does
have armies that big.
> Errr... no. It was the Nazgul at Minas Morgul that gave the orders to
> patrol the stairs, not Sauron.
Cite? The patrol was delayed specifically BECAUSE the Nazgul were
away and it took time to get Sauron's attention.
> It doesn't because your time-frame is wrong.
Wrong how?
>> However, you also overlook that a Nazgul was
>> landing at Cirith Ungol as Frodo and Sam made their escape. That
the
>> Nazgul was there seems likely to indicate that Sauron had already
>> received news of the capture...
> Yes, from Gorbag.
Gorbag ran from Cirith Ungol to Barad-dur, or somewhere that he could
contact Sauron, in the time it took Frodo and Sam to leave the tower?
No. Impossible.
Gorbag could not have even reached Minas Morgul in that time. The
Nazgul had to have been there completely independantly of Gorbag's
escape with the tokens.
> Certainly they could, but since their chief occupation at the time was
> the invasion of Gondor, I sincerely doubt they would have bothered
> informing Sauron of a few harmless spies: there were much more important
> things for him to worry about.
Then why was the Nazgul THERE? If it was so unimportant why did a
Nazgul show up at Cirith Ungol at all? What sense does it make that
it would just say 'ho hum' and fly back to the war after finding the
entire garrison of the tower slain and the prisoners escaped? No...
makes no sense. I have to believe that Sauron learned of those facts
as quickly as that Nazgul could possibly inform him.
> Therefore I draw the conclusion that Minas Morgul was acting on its own
> initiative, and that the first news to reach Lugburz of these spies came
> from Gorbag (either directly or indirectly).
No.
"'See here - our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago,
that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor
any message sent to Lugburz either: owing to the Great Signal going
up, and the High Nazgul going off to the war, and all that. And then
they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while, I'm
told.'"
TT, The Choices of Master Samwise
That no action was taken due to the delays in communication indicates
that Minas Morgul was NOT acting on its own initiative. That they
'couldn't get Lugburz's attention for a good while' indicates that
they DID get it eventually. And the whole passage indicates that
Sauron definitely DID know about the >presence< of the spies. He
could not have known about the capture at that point unless he was
watching through the palantir when the Orcs found Frodo, but he
definitely knew about the spies in the area.
> I don't think so: the catalyst for his suicide clearly comes from
> looking into the Stone. Perhaps he *did* see Frodo being captured, but I
> doubt it - my belief is that it was the Corsair fleet that pushed him
> over the edge, and that from everything else he saw in the Stone he drew
> the conclusion that Sauron had the Ring already.
But... nothing else he could see in the palantir would lead to that
conclusion. Nothing. The presence of enemy forces CANNOT make
Denethor think that Sauron had the Ring. It makes no sense. Denethor
HAS to have known about the overwhelming size of Sauron's forces
before then, whether he controlled the stone himself or it was
directed by Sauron. Even if he somehow didn't (though Boromir and
others at the council of Elrond clearly did) there is no way that
suddenly learning of those forces could make him think Sauron had the
Ring because there is no way that those forces were related to the
Ring... Denethor knew for a certainty that Sauron did NOT have it just
a few days before. Those armies could not have been formed up and put
into position in just a couple of days. Ergo, Denethor had to know
they had nothing to do with the Ring.
> And that's the area that's up for debate: you make the assumption that
> Denethor *knew* that Frodo had been captured, whereas I think he simply
> guessed that he had.
So... you are saying that the difference is that you think Denethor
was assuming Sauron had captured Frodo and the Ring without having
evidence to that effect while I believe he had some REASON for making
that assumption?
Morgil
"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:1178b6d1.03090...@posting.google.com...
> So... the stones cannot be made to lie, but they can be used to make
> you think you saw things that you really didn't? It REALLY seems a
> stretch to me... along with the 'Sauron used tricks to make his armies
> seem bigger than they were'.
Maybe Sauron had Maskirovka-Mumaks?
Morgil
Öjevind Lång
> j d armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:<3F587D9A...@durham.ac.uk>...
>
> > Which is where we disagree: there is no evidence to suggest that Sauron
> > ever controlled what Denethor saw
>
> We REALLY disagree. Indeed, I think the view that Saruon controlled
> what Denethor saw through the palantir is a very common one supported
> by solid evidence in the text.
If my memory hasn't failed me, Gandalf explicitly says that though Sauron
couldn't show Denethor falsehoods in the Palantír, he could decide what
things Denethor was to see and "edit" those items in ways that affected how
Denethor perceived them.
[snip]
> Gorbag ran from Cirith Ungol to Barad-dur, or somewhere that he could
> contact Sauron, in the time it took Frodo and Sam to leave the tower?
> No. Impossible.
Especially since Gorbag was dead.
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
> "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > j d armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:<3F587D9A...@durham.ac.uk>...
> >
> > > Which is where we disagree: there is no evidence to suggest that
Sauron
> > > ever controlled what Denethor saw
> >
> > We REALLY disagree. Indeed, I think the view that Saruon controlled
> > what Denethor saw through the palantir is a very common one supported
> > by solid evidence in the text.
>
> If my memory hasn't failed me, Gandalf explicitly says that though Sauron
> couldn't show Denethor falsehoods in the Palantír, he could decide what
> things Denethor was to see and "edit" those items in ways that affected
how
> Denethor perceived them.
Like the difference between BBC and CNN news channels? Both
might report on the same events but covering them differently.
A different camera angle, a translation of something said in a
foreign language that is translated in a *free-er* manner.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Een Wilde Ier
> "?jevind L?ng" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
> news:_W17b.7716$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
>
>>"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>j d armstrong <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
>>
>>news:<3F587D9A...@durham.ac.uk>...
>>
>>>>Which is where we disagree: there is no evidence to suggest that
>
> Sauron
>
>>>>ever controlled what Denethor saw
>>>
>>>We REALLY disagree. Indeed, I think the view that Saruon controlled
>>>what Denethor saw through the palantir is a very common one supported
>>>by solid evidence in the text.
>>
>>If my memory hasn't failed me, Gandalf explicitly says that though Sauron
>>couldn't show Denethor falsehoods in the Palant?r, he could decide what
>>things Denethor was to see and "edit" those items in ways that affected
>
> how
>
>>Denethor perceived them.
>
>
> Like the difference between BBC and CNN news channels? Both
> might report on the same events but covering them differently.
> A different camera angle, a translation of something said in a
> foreign language that is translated in a *free-er* manner.
Point in note: the supposed massacre by President Chavez in Venezuela
which was the excuse for an attempted coup, but later turned out to have
been constructed from 'creative editing' by his opponents who controlled
the TV networks.
--
Een Wilde Ier
I could prove God statistically. - George Gallup