Orcs cannibals?
Gregg Cattanach
just another PJ-ism, ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!") ?
Gregg C.
Andrew Wells
> Are there references in Tolkien to Orcs practicing cannibalism? Or
> is this just another PJ-ism, ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!") ?
It is certainly strongly implied that they are cannibals, although I don't
think it is stated explicitly. I'll leave someone else to dig out the
references!
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
Öjevind Lång
"Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:bemsj4$6i9m3$1...@ID-23037.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Gregg Cattanach wrote:
> > Are there references in Tolkien to Orcs practicing cannibalism? Or
> > is this just another PJ-ism, ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!") ?
>
> It is certainly strongly implied that they are cannibals, although I don't
> think it is stated explicitly. I'll leave someone else to dig out the
> references!
"We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that
gives us man's-flesh to eat." That is Uglúk speaking in Book Three, Chapter
III: "The Uruk-hai". A bit later on he says: "We'll feast on horseflesh yet,
or something better."
There are also indications that the Orcs ate each other, which would make
them true cannibals. (Since they were not human, their eating human beings
would not, strictly speaking, constitute cannibalism.) Grishnákh, in the
same chapter, insults the Orcs from Isengard by saying that "It's orc-flesh
they eat, I'll warrant"; but in some other passage in the book (I'm afraid I
have forgotten which) someone abuses another crowd of Orcs and says that
they are "barely trained maggots, only fit for the mess pot", or words to
that effect.
Öjevind
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
> Gregg Cattanach wrote:
> > Are there references in Tolkien to Orcs practicing cannibalism? Or
> > is this just another PJ-ism, ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!") ?
>
> It is certainly strongly implied that they are cannibals, although I don't
> think it is stated explicitly. I'll leave someone else to dig out the
> references!
sarumans uruk-hai brag that they get mans flesh
merry and pipping eat the orcs bread
but not the meat becasue they dont know its source
stealth...@remove-yahoo.com
::pedantic mode on::
In which case, they would not be cannibals, unless they also ate orcs.
::pedantic mode off::
--
Sindamor Pandaturion
[remove -remove- to reply]
Peter H
They're not cannibals, just true omnivores. Cannibalism generally is
based in ritual rather than nutrition. Extreme conditions can turn that
on its head, i.e. Donner Pass.
Pete H
--
The universe is largely unexplored.
NPR News item
Robert J. Kolker
Gregg Cattanach wrote:
> Are there references in Tolkien to Orcs practicing cannibalism? Or is this
> just another PJ-ism, ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!") ?
The Orcs were carnivores. You really don't want to know what kind of
meat they ate.
Bob Kolker
>
Igenlode
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:04:00 -0700, mair_...@yahoo.com (coyotes rand
> mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote:
[snip]
> >sarumans uruk-hai brag that they get mans flesh
> >
> >merry and pipping eat the orcs bread
> >but not the meat becasue they dont know its source
> ::pedantic mode on::
>
> In which case, they would not be cannibals, unless they also ate orcs.
>
> ::pedantic mode off::
I suspect that Merry and Pippin would be as unhappy at the possibility
of being offered orc flesh as of man flesh (or even hobbit flesh...)
And they may well have other distasteful possibilities in mind (thinking
about Gollum's diet) - it doesn't have to be sentient for the idea of
eating it to be off-putting :-)
--
Igenlode <Igen...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
Andrew Wells
<snips>
> And they may well have other distasteful possibilities in mind
> (thinking about Gollum's diet) - it doesn't have to be sentient for
> the idea of eating it to be off-putting :-)
Indeed. Many Brits, for example, feel queasy about the idea of eating
horse-meet, while across the Channel many Frenchmen seem quite happy about
the idea.
Andrew
Conrad Dunkerson
> but in some other passage in the book (I'm afraid I have forgotten which)
> someone abuses another crowd of Orcs and says that they are "barely trained
> maggots, only fit for the mess pot", or words to that effect.
Actually, I think the threat was that the ROHIRRIM would eat them;
"'You'll run with me behind you,' said Uglúk. 'Run! Or you'll never
see
your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending
out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run
while night lasts!'"
And later;
"'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked. The Whiteskins
will
catch you and eat you. They're coming!'"
TT, The Uruk-Hai
Which seems rather unlikely, but might suggest that the Orcs felt it
only natural to eat dead enemies.
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
> Actually, I think the threat was that the ROHIRRIM would eat them;
> Which seems rather unlikely, but might suggest that the Orcs felt it
> only natural to eat dead enemies.
Indeed. Why waste good meat?
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Or the whole thing was 'cooked up' merely for public opinion.
Hasan
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Indeed. Many Brits, for example, feel queasy about the idea of eating
> horse-meet, while across the Channel many Frenchmen seem quite happy about
> the idea.
Traditionally, the Church was very hostile to the eating of horse-flesh. I
believe the reason was that eating such meat was part of pagan rituals among
the Germanic peoples. The horse had a sort of semi-sacred status, being the
animal of Woden (Odin, Wotan). Or perhaps the opposition was simply founded
on the dietary injunctions of "Leviticus", but I doubt it; the injunction
against eating pork, for example, was not maintained by the priests.
Öjevind
Arkady
Could the opposition to eating horses have also been motivated by issues of
status, i.e the important role that horses had in distinguishing rank in the
feudal system?
Arky
Chuck Washington
news:beumjd$9b383$1...@ID-23037.news.uni-berlin.de...
That's because the French are a dirty, filthy people. The British people
are far superior to the French in every way, except with regard to
teeth.
Een wilde Ier
<ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>"Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> Indeed. Many Brits, for example, feel queasy about the idea of eating
>> horse-meet, while across the Channel many Frenchmen seem quite happy about
>> the idea.
>
>Traditionally, the Church was very hostile to the eating of horse-flesh. I
>believe the reason was that eating such meat was part of pagan rituals among
>the Germanic peoples.
Not to mention the Celts, among some of whose tribes (at least) a
tradition survived until the early Middle Ages of eating horse-flesh
as part of the Rí's (King's) investiture.
David
--
Journalist: Where in Northern Ireland will the two leaders meet?
Ari Fleischer: Dublin.
Press Briefing with Ari Fleischer,
George W. Bush's chief spokesman
April 4, 2003
Een wilde Ier
<yawn>
I would guess that, like that unfortunate Scottish university career
advisor recently, by "British" you mean "English".
BaronjosefR
status, i.e the important role that horses had in distinguishing rank in the
feudal system?
Arky<<<<<<<<
Excellent point. As well, the use of horses in war precluded eating them, as
youmight owe your life to a horse later down the line. It is ard to escape when
you leave your horse in steaming piles in the bushes.
Arkady
"BaronjosefR" <baron...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030715205704...@mb-m19.aol.com...
LOL! I have to get that line into a history essay somehow...
Arky
Troels Forchhammer
>
> The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> except with regard to teeth.
What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
have ever met have had fine teeth ...
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Morgil
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> kirjoitti
viestissä:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> Chuck Washington <chuck...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> > except with regard to teeth.
>
> What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
It comes from Merkian obsession that everyone
should have perfect set of teeth, in case they'd
end up in TV some day (Stereotype #27).
Morgil
Chuck Washington
news:h359hv84jlpvaf20a...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:51:45 -0400, "Chuck Washington"
> <chuck...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Andrew Wells" <nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:beumjd$9b383$1...@ID-23037.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >> Igenlode wrote:
> >> <snips>
> >> > And they may well have other distasteful possibilities in mind
> >> > (thinking about Gollum's diet) - it doesn't have to be sentient
for
> >> > the idea of eating it to be off-putting :-)
> >>
> >> Indeed. Many Brits, for example, feel queasy about the idea of
eating
> >> horse-meet, while across the Channel many Frenchmen seem quite
happy
> >about
> >> the idea.
> >
> >That's because the French are a dirty, filthy people. The British
people
> >are far superior to the French in every way, except with regard to
> >teeth.
>
> <yawn>
>
> I would guess that, like that unfortunate Scottish university career
> advisor recently, by "British" you mean "English".
Bad guess, asshole. All the Brits have bad teeth, including the ones
outside of Merry 'Ole.
Chuck Washington
news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> Chuck Washington <chuck...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> >
> > The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> > except with regard to teeth.
>
> What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
They suck.
> I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> have ever met have had fine teeth ...
If by "fine" you mean "rotten and yellow and stinking of decay," I
agree.
Andrew Wells
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
> news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
>
> They suck.
>
>> I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
>> been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
>> have ever met have had fine teeth ...
>
> If by "fine" you mean "rotten and yellow and stinking of decay," I
> agree.
Can we keep the abuse in AFT, please?
Thank you.
Chuck Washington
> Chuck Washington wrote:
> > "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
> > news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> >> What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
> >
> > They suck.
> >
> >> I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> >> been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> >> have ever met have had fine teeth ...
> >
> > If by "fine" you mean "rotten and yellow and stinking of decay," I
> > agree.
>
> Can we keep the abuse in AFT, please?
Yes.
> Thank you.
Any time, Andy. Anything at all for you, gorgeous.
Öjevind Lång
> Chuck Washington wrote:
> > "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
> > news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> >> What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
> >
> > They suck.
> >
> >> I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> >> been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> >> have ever met have had fine teeth ...
> >
> > If by "fine" you mean "rotten and yellow and stinking of decay," I
> > agree.
>
> Can we keep the abuse in AFT, please?
I have an even better idea. Let us completely absrainf rom it.
Öjevind
Chuck Washington
I don't know how to do that. My brother is very good at absrainf roming,
but I'm not.
Simon Hibbs
> ::pedantic mode on::
>
> In which case, they would not be cannibals, unless they also ate orcs.
>
> ::pedantic mode off::
Technicaly yes, but then the term canibal was not coined in a world
where the possibility of eating other inteligent beings was likely
to occur. In the context of Middle Earth, I'd happily accept a
definition of canibal that covered eating any inteligent being.
Simon Hibbs
Jette Goldie
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> >
> > The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> > except with regard to teeth.
>
> What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
>
> I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> have ever met have had fine teeth ...
The Americans like to think they have good teeth - but the
only way this can be true is if they persuade themselves
that the British have bad teeth.
Neither is 100% true.
--
Jette
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
The difference between men and boys
is the cost of their toys"
Jette Goldie
"Chuck Washington" <chuck...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:76KdnePFMrY...@comcast.com...
You really shouldn't project your own problems on the
rest of the world.
After all, British schoolchildren all get FREE dental
care and adults all have access to discounted
dental care, so tis hardly likely that the above would
be true, as compared with a land where only the
wealthy can afford a dentist.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Een wilde Ier
<chuck...@hotmail.com> wrote:
By any chance does your obsession with teeth reflect your employment?
Chuck Washington
Go fuck your mother.
Chuck Washington
news:n9CRa.1537$4D4.12...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> "Chuck Washington" <chuck...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:76KdnePFMrY...@comcast.com...
> > "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
> > news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> > > Chuck Washington <chuck...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> > > >
> > > > The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> > > > except with regard to teeth.
> > >
> > > What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
> >
> > They suck.
> >
> > > I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> > > been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> > > have ever met have had fine teeth ...
> >
> > If by "fine" you mean "rotten and yellow and stinking of decay," I
> > agree.
>
> You really shouldn't project your own problems on the
> rest of the world.
Shut the fuck up, you yellow-toothed, slack-jawed son of a bitch. Maybe
you'd realize what an ugly fucking set of teeth you have if you weren't
so busy drinking warm beer and wishing you could jack off in public.
Chuck Washington
>
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.Fk> wrote in message
> news:Od8Ra.7651$g4.1...@news1.nokia.com...
> > Chuck Washington <chuck...@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
> > >
> > > The British people are far superior to the French in every way,
> > > except with regard to teeth.
> >
> > What is that about British (or English as it might be) teeth?
> >
> > I've encountered allusions to this before, but I have never
> > been able to make any sense of it - all the British people I
> > have ever met have had fine teeth ...
>
I told you to shut up.
Een wilde Ier
I'll assume that you're not trailer trash, and hence intend that as an
insult ;-)
David
Een wilde Ier
LOL. "Chuck Washington" climbs new levels of cluelessness.
Jette Goldie
I think it's BaronJ trying to escape everyone's killfiles.
Chuck Washington
Good assumption.
Did you do it yet? If you didn't: Go fuck your mother.
Chuck Washington
I thought I told you to go fuck your mother?
Get fucking, asshole.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<tr...@no1.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:54:16 -0400, "Chuck Washington"
> <babyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Shut the fuck up, you yellow-toothed, slack-jawed son of a bitch. Maybe
> >you'd realize what an ugly fucking set of teeth you have if you weren't
> >so busy drinking warm beer and wishing you could jack off in public.
> >
>
> LOL. "Chuck Washington" climbs new levels of cluelessness.
no more miss balrog contests
now we will have the russ of the week award
Een wilde Ier
<babyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip more of the same from "Chump Washington">
Oh dear. Run out of anything to say, have we?
<plonk>
Jamie Armstrong
<snip>
> <snip more of the same from "Chump Washington">
>
> Oh dear. Run out of anything to say, have we?
>
> <plonk>
>
Took you a while! Oh, here's your toothbrush. Compatriot...
;)
Jamie
--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
Chuck Washington
news:3F171A68...@durham.ac.uk...
> Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > <snip more of the same from "Chump Washington">
> >
> > Oh dear. Run out of anything to say, have we?
> >
> > <plonk>
> >
> Took you a while! Oh, here's your toothbrush. Compatriot...
Shut up, dirtbag. I just tell it like it is. Too bad you don't like the
truth.
AC
Jette Goldie <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
> "Een wilde Ier" <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> I'll assume that you're not trailer trash, and hence intend that as an
>> insult ;-)
>>
>> David
>
>
> I think it's BaronJ trying to escape everyone's killfiles.
Whoever it is just got a spot in mine.
--
Aaron Clausen
Öjevind Lång
> "Een wilde Ier" <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message
> news:1n7ehvkdtaj92lv2h...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:52:58 -0400, "Chuck Washington"
> > <babyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > >Go fuck your mother.
> >
> > I'll assume that you're not trailer trash, and hence intend that as an
> > insult ;-)
> >
> > David
>
> I think it's BaronJ trying to escape everyone's killfiles.
Jette, I have argued with the Baron about many things, but he has never been
crude and obscene in this way.
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
Maybe not to you.
BaronjosefR
> Jette, I have argued with the Baron about many things, but he has never
been
> crude and obscene in this way.
<<<<<<
Actually, I have gotten pretty crude and creative flinging insults at times, as
I have no problem with sinking to the levels of others (i.e. it has always been
in response.)
Troels Forchhammer
>
> The Americans like to think they have good teeth - but the
> only way this can be true is if they persuade themselves
> that the British have bad teeth.
>
> Neither is 100% true.
Ah - so it really is just another (insert derisive word here)
prejudice. I thought it might be, but I wanted it confirmed ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Jamie Armstrong
> In article <dp7ehvoqugr8ia7cg...@4ax.com>, Een wilde Ier
> <tr...@no1.com> wrote:
>
>>LOL. "Chuck Washington" climbs new levels of cluelessness.
>
> no more miss balrog contests
> now we will have the russ of the week award
LOL!!!
:)
Stephen Horgan
Killfiled.
--
Stephen Horgan, http://www.horgan.org.uk
"intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence"
Öjevind Lång
> "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
> news:sBFRa.109$Y5...@nntpserver.swip.net...
> > "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > "Een wilde Ier" <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1n7ehvkdtaj92lv2h...@4ax.com...
> > > > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:52:58 -0400, "Chuck Washington"
> > > > <babyc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
[snip]
> > Jette, I have argued with the Baron about many things, but he has never
> been
> > crude and obscene in this way.
Be that as it may, Chuck Washington is just a troll who has infested this
group before, and who posted under several aliases. At least, there were
other posts under other names from the same addy - Todd Beamer was one. If
you do a Google search you will find that his style is uniformly,
intentionally offensive, without any ambition to prove anything.
Öjevind
Een wilde Ier
<j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> <snip more of the same from "Chump Washington">
>>
>> Oh dear. Run out of anything to say, have we?
>>
>> <plonk>
>>
>Took you a while! Oh, here's your toothbrush. Compatriot...
>;)
*Toothbrush*?
D.
Graham Lockwood
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 22:51:36 +0100, Jamie Armstrong
> <j.d.ar...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Een wilde Ier wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> <snip more of the same from "Chump Washington">
>>>
>>> Oh dear. Run out of anything to say, have we?
>>>
>>> <plonk>
>>>
>> Took you a while! Oh, here's your toothbrush. Compatriot...
>> ;)
>
> *Toothbrush*?
Do clean his mouth out, I assume...
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Igenlode
On 17 Jul 2003 Simon Hibbs wrote:
> stealth...@remove-yahoo.com wrote in message
>
> > ::pedantic mode on::
> >
> > In which case, they would not be cannibals, unless they also ate orcs.
> >
> > ::pedantic mode off::
>
> Technically yes, but then the term cannibal was not coined in a world
> where the possibility of eating other intelligent beings was likely
> to occur. In the context of Middle Earth, I'd happily accept a
> definition of cannibal that covered eating any intelligent being.
>
In English "as she is spoke" (by me at least!) 'cannibal' is widely used
of spiders, snakes and scorpions which eat their own kind.
While I've heard people say "cannibal" when they mean "man-eater", I've
never heard that the intelligence of the species being eaten made any
difference to the terminology :-)
(Is there any reason to think that Orcs did *not* eat their own kind? It
would seem entirely in character...)
--
Igenlode <Igen...@nym.alias.net> Pedant Extraordinaire
Troels Forchhammer
>
> (Is there any reason to think that Orcs did *not* eat their own kind?
> It would seem entirely in character...)
Eating Orc-flesh is used as an insult by Uglúk when he's
'debating' with Grishnákh in 'The Uruk-hai'.
While it may not be unheard of, the reaction shows that
cannibalism wasn't normally tolerated among the Orcs - IMO.