Chapter of the Week: Hobbit, chapter 2
Pradera
(Sheesh! I only volunteered as an emergency backup! Don't go jumping on
me all of ya already)
Okay, so my questions are:
1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
on holidays?
2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
wizardry?
3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
fond of white horses?
4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
different from that known in Shire?
Some geographical problems:
5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there must've
been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I wonder how was the
business in those parts...
9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the situation,
if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what would
it be?
11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
something serious?
12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got caught.
But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
very few people)
Well, that's it. If anyone has other questions, etc. etc.
--
Pradera
---
'Ronald Reagan once said that a great leader is simply an
average man who surrounds himself with the best.
That's why I never vote Republican'
Scott Summers, 'Cyclops'
http://www.pradera-castle.prv.pl/
http://www.tolkien-gen.prv.pl/
Een Wilde Ier
--
Een Wilde Ier
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes
wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it. - Douglas Adams
TradeSurplus
>Okay, so my questions are:
Couldn't you narrow it down a bit?
>1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
>maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
>on holidays?
Presumably Bilbo didn't feel like living in a messy house until the
housecleaner's appointed day.
>2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
>was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
>wizardry?
I don't see it as being in Gandalf's character to magically influence a
person to do something they would not otherwise do. There may have been some
headology involved though, setting up the situation in such a way that
Bilbo's adventurous side would have the chance to come to the fore. That's
how I see Gandalf's influence, on the situation rather than directly on
Bilbo.
>3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
>fond of white horses?
Definitely not Shadowfax. Gandalf's selection of Shadowfax after his escape
from Orthanc sounds very much like a first meeting. Also, Shadowfax would be
in his eighties by the time of the War of the Ring if he was alive at the
time of TH. The Mearas lifespan is the same as that of Men so an 80 year old
Shadowfax should not be as active as he was in LotR.
>4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
>different from that known in Shire?
The start of Bilbo's journey does indeed seem to pass through more civilized
lands than just the Eastfarthing and Bree. Story external this looks like a
change in Tolkien's conception of the lands between The Shire and Rivendell.
Story internal, maybe those lands were more populated at the time of TH. The
dialect of Westron spoken by whoever lived there at the time could have been
influenced by Angmar or Dunland and thus sounded strange to a hobbit who had
never left The Shire before.
Trade.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> (Sheesh! I only volunteered as an emergency backup! Don't go jumping on
> me all of ya already)
> Okay, so my questions are:
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
the tidy variety.
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
> wizardry?
influencing Mr.Baggins were, IMO, carefully chosen tempo, and his skill
at sharpening the choice between duty (or, in our case, given promise)
and soft-bellied whining. He arrived at the right moment, prodded Bilbo
on the account of dirty mantelpiece (here goes the answer to Q.No.1!) and
then let the letter do its magic on Bilbo. The contract was quite fair
(notwithstanding the gaping omission of Gandalf's share!!), and Bilbo was
not daunted by the funeral clause, so he decided to accept the written
offer (_businesslike_, although I doubt Bilbo had had any such contracts
before) and join the band.
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
> fond of white horses?
not a 'White horse', by all means. At least, he had a ______ and a
______-____ ____.
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
> different from that known in Shire?
it?
> Some geographical problems:
[All of those problems, of course, have already been noted by various
students of JRRT's corpus]
> 5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there must've
> been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I wonder how was the
> business in those parts...
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the situation,
> if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
Rule No.1: don't send bumbling bilboes as scouts. At least, send an
experienced dwarf with such a fool (so much for Dwarven tactical thinking
- Bard was RIGHT about stupid Dwarves who know only how to fight in mines
and caves).
Rule No.2: no news is bad news. If you think the other way, welcome to
the dinner - as its main course.
Rule No.3: if all the dwarves are caught and no wizard is anything nearer
than 20 miles, the game is over. Fin. Konetz. ***BURP***
BTW, Gandalf was a bit careless when he vanished without telling the
Dwarves. So, in a way, Gandalf was *the* scout of the Company, but the
Company did not know about it. Too bad.
If Gandalf somehow prevented the Dwarves from going straight to the fire,
they would have lost the brilliant chance of surprising 3 trolls and
getting the treasure that was at least as important as the whole hoard of
Erebor...
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what would
> it be?
<snip q.11 - no idea whatsoever>
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
Ehhrm, redeemed - is that what you mean? Or 'depetrified'? I've got a
wild guess: if an innocent girl kisses a stoned<g> troll three times when
sakura is at full bloom, the troll may wake up. Or, perhaps, he can't.
Depends, you see, on the attractiveness of the girl.
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
Let's see: Balrogs are too proud to scavenge in the remnants of the Tower
of Gondolin, right? Whereas all others (Dragons, Orcs etc.) like
treasures immensely. BUT! Orcs can be (provisionally) ruled out since
they can't touch Elvish craft (the reaction of the Goblin King 3000 years
after the fall of Gondolin is telling). Dragons ain't got fingers to hold
swords, especially those that can do nasty things to them (Orcrist,
Glamdring, Codimordax). That leaves us with Men as the immediate
marauders in Gondolin. I reckon some Men (Easterlings?) at Morgoth's
service may well have taken part in the assault on the Hidden City, but
they were tooo afraid to take the swords right away (who wants to
brandish Elven swords at the parade on the Anfauglith?) and re-cached
them to return later (they even may have told their sons to get there).
After that the story gets quite dull. The swords are taken from Gondolin
and as the Easterlings(?) in question seem not to take part in the War of
the Jewels (an independent band?) or desert or do whatever may seem fit,
they escape from the Wrath of the Valar 'cross the Blue Mountains into
Eriador. It is blood, blood and blood from here (?). They get robbed(?),
the robbers get re-robbed(?) too, until at the end(?,?) of Third Age
(right before the Adventure?) three thuggish trolls presumably eat and
dump the last owners of the swords (??? ?.. ?.. ?.. ???).
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
[Scratches head] Were they? Or were those running away local shepherds?
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
> very few people)
Ahem. You see, ordinary human weapons (w.e. of Numenorean blades) are
useless against trolls in the night. And humans don't fight at night,
unless forced to (or unless they have IR/amplifying goggles). Elves are
good at bow-shooting, but troll-fighting requires close combat, where
trolls have the advantage of being the Middle-Earth equivalent of a
moving reinforced pillbox with fists. If you recall Aragorn's ancestry,
you'd notice some interesting details in the biographies of some very
tough men, I'm afraid.
Archie
--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."
Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_
Jette Goldie
<put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:MPG.19c8468dee...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> Pradera wrote:
> > (Sheesh! I only volunteered as an emergency backup! Don't go jumping on
> > me all of ya already)
> I am thankful to you and to Dr.Blofeld (nice kitty! nice eye patch!).
> > Okay, so my questions are:
> >
> > 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> > maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> > on holidays?
> There are B'10 different kinds of bachelors: tidy and lazy. Bilbo was of
> the tidy variety.
You're not suggesting that he's a <shock!> *confirmed batchelor"??
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Taemon
dishes?! And did they really expect Bilbo to find that mantelpiece-note or
was that some of Gandalf's jokes?
Greetings, T.
Bill O'Meally
"Een Wilde Ier" <theu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bjkv6h$k1v1c$2...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Pradera wrote:
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday
except
> on holidays?
>
No mention of it, but if he had a gardener, it is likely he had other
servants.
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how
strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit
of
> wizardry?
>
Gandalf just set things up with the idea that Bilbo would get swept up
in the adventure without being able to give things a second thought (at
least not til he was well along the road). No magic or coersion.
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he
just
> fond of white horses?
<ahem> Shadowfax was *not* white.
>
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of
Rhudaur so
> different from that known in Shire?
Probably the same language. The accent was strange.
>
> Some geographical problems:
> 5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills?
That's always what I assumed.
Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
They simply looked wicked to Bilbo.
>
> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there
must've
> been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I wonder how was
the
> business in those parts...
>
I recall an inn a day's march east of Bree. Can't recall the name or how
well it did businesswise.
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't
take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the
situation,
> if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
>
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal
story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what
would
> it be?
Maybe Bilbo made it up to add to the story's drama.
>
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole
journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch
instead of
> something serious?
>
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
>
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three
stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
It's explained. The trolls plundered other plunderers..
>
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got
caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_
trolls?
Maybe there were more than the three.
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think,
one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited
by
> very few people)
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
teepee
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote
> You're not suggesting that he's a <shock!> *confirmed batchelor"??
I suppose you believe Frodo was his 'nephew' as well.
Congressian
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Pradera wrote:
> (Sheesh! I only volunteered as an emergency backup! Don't go jumping on
> me all of ya already)
>
> Okay, so my questions are:
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
>
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
> wizardry?
I think it was plain old Gandalf acting like he is. In LOTR gandalf is
more of a gentleman, but in the hobbit he is a lot more likeable. He is
a wizard, and quick to anger. He is bolder, and very polite or
persuasive, logically.
Gandalf: you're late, go
bilbo: but
gandalf: no need for a handkie, go
bilbo: but
gandalf: no need for a hat either, go
How did gandalf know what bilbo was going to say? I think it is just
regular smart alec "sherlock-holmes" type of thinking, he knew what
bilbo would say based on experience. No clairvoyance in this piece
above. Just gentle chutzpah. That's what I love about Gandalf in the
hobbit book, that folksy monk type of wisdom. The guy who cures you of
your malady by ... slapping you on your bare head. A real benevolent
father archetype.
Hasan
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
>
> <put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:MPG.19c8468dee...@news.mtu-net.ru...
> > Pradera wrote:
> > > 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> > > maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> > > on holidays?
> > There are B'10 different kinds of bachelors: tidy and lazy. Bilbo was of
> > the tidy variety.
>
> You're not suggesting that he's a <shock!> *confirmed batchelor"??
voice... and you'll end up on the North Pole... deeply mistaken.")
Raven
news:bjkv6h$k1v1c$2...@ID-121201.news.uni-berlin.de...
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
Very probably he didn't have any maid or other servants permanently
attached to the smial. If he had, then that servant would have known of his
departure, and he would have avoided the embarrassing auction at his return.
It seems possible to me that he hired outside help occasionally, such as
after a party with many guests. But one rather tidy hobbit with a lot of
spare time on his hands can go through a lot of day-to-day cleaning. At
last we know that he dusted his mantelpiece every morning.
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
> wizardry?
Possibly, Gandalf used his ring-augmented talent of raising people's
spirits, doing to Bilbo on a much smaller scale what he later did to
Théoden. But he could not have persuaded *any* hobbit, at least not without
going far beyond his authority.
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
> fond of white horses?
Shadowfax was light grey, not white, and Gandalf met that horse more than
half a century later.
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur
> so different from that known in Shire?
Why shouldn't it? Look at the regional dialects of any RL country. If
the language of Rhudaur were as different from the Shire-dialect as Texan is
from English Midlands (which I suppose is quite diverse anyway), then to
Bilbo the Rhudaur dialect would be a strange speech.
At that, it's very probably not Rhudaur that is referred to.
What route did they follow? TH says that they first passed through
hobbit-lands. Presumably this means the Shire east of Hobbiton. Then they
came to lands where people spoke strangely. This may have been Bree-land,
which by Bilbo's hobbitish-myopic standards would be quite outlandish; the
Lone-lands might then have been the lands surrounding the Road east of
Bree-land: the north-march of old Cardolan and the south-march of old
Arthedain. Possibly there were settlements of Dúnedain along the western
part of the Road, near Bree, that became fewer or vanished by the time of
Frodo's journey: the Forsaken Inn may have been one of theirs, still in use
when Bilbo went that way.
Anticipating question 7, I very much doubt that the evil-looking castles
were the forts of the Weather Hills, because it seems that they came within
sight of them early on the day that they reached a bridge across a river -
which could presumably be the Last Bridge, across the Hoarwell, where
Strider much later picked up the gem that Glorfindel had left. We know that
Frodo looked upon those crumbling castles after crossing the Hoarwell
bridge, as told in much more geographical detail in the FotR; and we know
that Bilbo's adventure with the trolls happened between the Hoarwell and the
Loudwater, north of the Road, because it was there that Strider's party came
across the weathered, petrified trolls. But what is puzzling is that they
left the Road and went into the Trollshaws in the first place. Perhaps they
took a wrong turn in the rain, off a road that must have been ancient,
overgrown and little used so late in the Third Age?
Judging by TH, they camped right near the river (near enough for a pony
to bolt into it), and from that camp saw the trolls' camp-fire. However,
according to the FotR, Strider and his company marched a mile along the Road
after the Hoarwell bridge before finding a ravine where they turned north,
leaving the Road. On the fifth day after leaving the Road they came upon
the old place with the trolls. I can only guess that Bilbo's company
crossed the Hoarwell bridge, left the Road, and some time later came to a
lesser river that did have a bridge across - a relic from before Rhudaur
fell. Perhaps they lost their way at some point after crossing the
Hoarwell.
One explanation is that there was a lesser river between the Hoarwell and
the Loudwater, and that the Road crossed it on a bridge that was still in
use in 2941. Bilbo and the Dwarves crossed it, and camped just north of it,
on the east side, perhaps on a ridge or hillock, in search of dry ground -
in the rain, the low ground would be wetter. They saw the campfire of the
trolls and had their adventure.
Then in 3018 Frodo and his friends came that way. At this time the
bridge used by Bilbo had finally fallen into ruins, leaving the Hoarwell
bridge as the Last Bridge. They left the Road long before coming to this
lesser river, and later came upon the place of Bilbo's first serious
adventure. We know from the FotR that this was not far north of the Road,
since they followed the track for only a few miles before they came to the
Road again.
Alternatively we can invoke the story-internal explanation that both TH
and the LotR were copies of ancient copies, and that in the case of TH a
hole of some days had been left - some days had been skipped over between
the bridge and the adventure with the trolls, perhaps due to an omission, TH
being the abridged version of Bilbo's original There And Back Again, or due
to a translation error between Westron and English.
> Some geographical problems:
> 5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
Very probably the lands surrounding the Road between Bree-land and
Hoarwell.
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
Which rushing red river? The crossed a rushing river just before their
adventure with the trolls, but I don't see where it is described as red.
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
Been there done that.
> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there
> must've been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I
> wonder how was the business in those parts...
Que? "Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no
people left, no inns...", and "In the Lone-lands they had been obliged to
camp when they could..."
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the
> situation, if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were
> with them?
The trolls were dumb but not weak. I pride myself with being somewhat
more intelligent than the average rhinoceros [1], but even if I were
together with thirteen other people I wouldn't want to fight one barehanded,
let alone three.
If they had known before about the trolls, then I suppose there would be
two courses of action: run away, or attack the trolls all thirteen dwarves
together. Thorin - who presumably was the most skilled fighter of the
dwarves, of course - bashed two of the trolls before the third one got him
from behind. They could have sneaked up on the trolls and attacked them
with branches and knives. Still, it could be that Thorin, without any real
weapon, would have been overcome by one of the trolls alone once it had come
over the surprise at getting a brand in its eye.
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what
> would it be?
The trolls of course spoke Westron, since Bilbo could understand them.
So their names were presumably Westron - the Westron equivalents of William
Huggins, Tom and Bert. But so little of Westron is known that figuring out
what these names were seems futile.
There is also the story-internal explanation again that TH was originally
written by Bilbo. He couldn't remember the exact conversation between the
trolls, of course, and had to reconstruct it with memory as well as
imagination as building blocks. So to make the tale easier to follow for an
audience he equipped the trolls with names common to hobbits or at least to
the lower class of hobbits. These names were then translated as faithfully
as possible into English.
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
> something serious?
The only explanation I can find is that the dwarves lived in relative
poverty but also in safety in the Blue Mountains. They would have sold any
weapons that they forged; the weapons that they had had in Erebor might have
been lost when the dragon came, or rusted away during the time between 2770,
when Smaug came to Erebor, and 2941. Then they set out towards Erebor too
suddenly to forge weapons beyond knives.
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
Probably not.
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
This is told in the books: they presumably came upon an old robber-hole.
The swords must have been snaffled by some of Morgoth's forces during the
fall of Gondolin. They could have been taken by men, or by orcs. If taken
by orcs, they could have been traded to easterlings who then carried them
east. Or whoever had them during the War of Wrath could have fled east,
surviving the war, and then holed up in the Misties. There the swords could
have passed from hand to hand until the trolls got hold of them, perhaps by
murdering and eating those who had them at the time. Or the possessors
could have died in their dwellings, and the swords left lying around for
millennia before the trolls found them by chance. Or the intervention of
Providence.
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got
> caught. But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of
> _three_ trolls? Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this
> is, I think, one of the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd
> Age was inhabited by very few people)
I would flee from three trolls too, even if I did have a goodly chance of
defeating them but could gain nothing from it. A risk of dying and no
profit in conquering. And the late Third Age Noldor had more or less ceased
to take a part in the events in the world, so they would be less inclined to
slay or chase off the trolls for the benefit of others.
Crú.
AC
>
> (Sheesh! I only volunteered as an emergency backup! Don't go jumping on
> me all of ya already)
>
> Okay, so my questions are:
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
Well, I gather old Holman did his gardening, so I don't find it too hard to
believe that he might have had some domestic help.
>
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
> wizardry?
If never giving the poor hobbit a chance to breathe, then yes, I think he
did. My impression is that Bilbo really didn't have much of a chance to say
yes or no.
>
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
> fond of white horses?
Certainly not Shadowfax, who I doubt was even born yet. My impression is
that Shadowfax and Gandalf didn't meet until after Gandalf's escape from
Orthanc.
>
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
> different from that known in Shire?
I imagine it would be the same as someone from Washington State saying
Texans speak strangely.
>
> Some geographical problems:
> 5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
These two I cannot guess at.
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
This would likely have been the lands subject to Angmar.
>
> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there must've
> been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I wonder how was the
> business in those parts...
There is that Lonely Inn which Aragorn speaks of, which was a day's march
from Bree, but, if we're sticking to story-internal explanations, perhaps
Bilbo was using a little artistic license.
>
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the situation,
> if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
Even Gandalf chose a rather more clever and stealthy approach to dealing
with the trolls than just blasting them. One gets the impression that
trolls are very tough creatures, and that beating on them might be a
difficult, and potentially extremely harmful adventure.
>
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what would
> it be?
They adopted Westron and Westron names. Can't think of another one.
>
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
> something serious?
Maybe they left their packs behind. Sometimes I really wonder if those
Dwarves may have been among the denser of Durin's descendants.
>
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
Do you mean spiritually, or do you mean there's a formula that can bring
them back to life? If you mean the former, then I don't know. If you mean
the latter, then I doubt it.
>
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
I assume that they stole it from other, more clever thieves. Very likely
those thieves ended up as a pleasant respite from roast mutton.
>
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
> very few people)
I think, even when looking for story-internal solutions, that we have to
take portions Bilbo's story with a grain of salt.
--
Aaron Clausen
AC
> me all of ya already)
>
> Okay, so my questions are:
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
Well, I gather old Holman did his gardening, so I don't find it too hard to
believe that he might have had some domestic help.
>
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence? Was it just an evil look, his charisma, or a bit of
> wizardry?
If never giving the poor hobbit a chance to breathe, then yes, I think he
did. My impression is that Bilbo really didn't have much of a chance to say
yes or no.
>
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
> fond of white horses?
Certainly not Shadowfax, who I doubt was even born yet. My impression is
that Shadowfax and Gandalf didn't meet until after Gandalf's escape from
Orthanc.
>
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
> different from that known in Shire?
I imagine it would be the same as someone from Washington State saying
Texans speak strangely.
>
> Some geographical problems:
> 5. Where exactly are the 'Lone-lands'?
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
These two I cannot guess at.
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
This would likely have been the lands subject to Angmar.
>
> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there must've
> been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I wonder how was the
> business in those parts...
There is that Lonely Inn which Aragorn speaks of, which was a day's march
from Bree, but, if we're sticking to story-internal explanations, perhaps
Bilbo was using a little artistic license.
>
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the situation,
> if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
Even Gandalf chose a rather more clever and stealthy approach to dealing
with the trolls than just blasting them. One gets the impression that
trolls are very tough creatures, and that beating on them might be a
difficult, and potentially extremely harmful adventure.
>
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what would
> it be?
They adopted Westron and Westron names. Can't think of another one.
>
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
> something serious?
Maybe they left their packs behind. Sometimes I really wonder if those
Dwarves may have been among the denser of Durin's descendants.
>
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
Do you mean spiritually, or do you mean there's a formula that can bring
them back to life? If you mean the former, then I don't know. If you mean
the latter, then I doubt it.
>
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
I assume that they stole it from other, more clever thieves. Very likely
those thieves ended up as a pleasant respite from roast mutton.
>
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
> very few people)
I think, even when looking for story-internal solutions, that we have to
Pradera
scribbled loosely:
>> 8. 'So far they had not camped before on this journey' - so there
>> must've been an inn less than a day away from Trollshaws... I
>> wonder how was the business in those parts...
> Que? "Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there
> were no
> people left, no inns...", and "In the Lone-lands they had been obliged
> to camp when they could..."
And yet there is that quote I quoted a page later. I guess it means that it
was their first day in the Lone-lands, and they were looking for their
first camping place.
Pradera
>> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
>
> Do you mean spiritually, or do you mean there's a formula that can
> bring them back to life? If you mean the former, then I don't know.
> If you mean the latter, then I doubt it.
There is confusion about my question, I see, and I see that it's for good,
as everyone so far answers to both variants :) Personally, I meant
redemption. This is, of course, similar to 'can orcs be saved', and yet,
not really, as I don't remember what does Tolkien (including Letters) say
about souls of the trolls.
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Pradera wrote:
> On 10 wrz 2003, AC <tao...@alberni.net> scribbled loosely:
>
>
>>>12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
>>
>>Do you mean spiritually, or do you mean there's a formula that can
>>bring them back to life? If you mean the former, then I don't know.
>>If you mean the latter, then I doubt it.
>
>
> There is confusion about my question, I see, and I see that it's for good,
> as everyone so far answers to both variants :) Personally, I meant
> redemption. This is, of course, similar to 'can orcs be saved', and yet,
> not really, as I don't remember what does Tolkien (including Letters) say
> about souls of the trolls.
>
My reading of teh bible tells me that trolls will never come back to
lifespiritually until they say "benedictus, qui venit, in nomine domine"
(blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.) Until then, they are
cursed.
(I'm using troll in the GNU jargon file sense, mapped to corresponding
behaviours in the jews of the 1st century AD. Some of the people who
asked questions of the prophets, were real trolls.
Hasan
A Tsar Is Born
"Pradera" <pra...@pradera.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:Xns93F18FAA8E321p...@130.133.1.4...
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves?
Well they'd never have shown up in the first place if Gandalf had not
suggested it.
And he wouldn't have done that had he not thought Bilbo would take the bait.
> 3. Was Gandalf's horse by that time already Shadowfax, or was he just
> fond of white horses?
He did not meet Shadowfax until Gwaihir rescued him from Orthanc, nearly
eighty years later. At this time Shadowfax had certainly not been born.
> 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur so
> different from that known in Shire?
If anyone lived in Rhudaur at this point.
The road is well south of it, I believe.
The accent of Westron was very different in Bree from the Shire.
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
> something serious?
They weren't coming, as Gimli was in LotR, from grandiose circumstances --
they were wanderers and traveled light in order to avoid suspicion about
their intentions, and to permit swift movement -- when running from the
goblins, for instance, not to mention when being carried off by eagles.
In contrast, Gloin and Gimli are princes of the blood royal of a very
prosperous kingdom. They can afford to loaf and devote themselves to things
like war and diplomacy. Thorin's companions, if not he himself, had to earn
their bread.
> 13. The greatest mystery of them all: how on Arda did the three stupid
> Trolls get ahold of Turgon's swords???
By ambusing elves, probably.
Tsar Parmathule
Taemon
> >> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
> There is confusion about my question, I see, and I see that it's for good,
> as everyone so far answers to both variants :) Personally, I meant
> redemption.
Saved from what? They were just being trolls. You chauvinist.
Greetings, T.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I don't see it as being in Gandalf's character to magically influence a
> person to do something they would not otherwise do.
Well... Gandalf the White certainly did so to Saruman, dragging him
back to the railing by force of will. His 'healing' of Theoden and
'inspiring' of the defenders of Minas Tirith would probably also
technically qualify.
That said, I agree that it seems unlikely that Gandalf put the 'magic
whammy' on Bilbo to get him to agree to the adventure. The book seems
to suggest that Bilbo was simply affronted by the suggestion that he
COULDN'T do it.
> The start of Bilbo's journey does indeed seem to pass through more civilized
> lands than just the Eastfarthing and Bree.
It is possible that Bilbo was just (at that time) inexperienced with
areas outside hobbiton and considered the speech of Buckland and Bree
unusual.
Conrad Dunkerson
>> Pradera wrote:
>> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather
Hills?
> That's always what I assumed.
>> Then why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
> They simply looked wicked to Bilbo.
It could also be a reference to the civil war... the area was
eventually conquered by Angmar. The particular structures Bilbo was
looking at could have been left over from some of the more unsavory
humans.
> I recall an inn a day's march east of Bree. Can't recall the name or how
> well it did businesswise.
The Last Inn.
> Maybe Bilbo made it up to add to the story's drama.
There are alot of 'oddities' in The Hobbit which can be explained by
this device. For instance... how exactly did the trolls' bag speak?
Did that really happen or did Bilbo make it up to explain how he had
bungled the burglaring? :]
Conrad Dunkerson
> "Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote
>> You're not suggesting that he's a <shock!> *confirmed batchelor"??
> I suppose you believe Frodo was his 'nephew' as well.
Yes, well... that was clear from the way Bilbo kept changing his
story;
"He's my nephew! No... my cousin on my father's side... er mother's
side, I meant to say cousin on my mother's side! Um... both sides?
Yes, that's it... he's my cousin on both sides AND my nephew. So you
see I HAD to take him in. All perfectly ordinary."
Preposterous. :]
Henriette
>
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
> very few people)
>
came to ascribe more power to the elves.
What surprises me upon re-reading, is the feeling of compassion of the
troll William for Bilbo. Agreed, he has a full stomach. Nevertheless
he says: "Poor little blighter!(Whatever that is, H.)Let him go!". Now
where do we ever read any of the bad guys says anything like that?
Henriette
Bill O'Meally
"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1178b6d1.03091...@posting.google.com...
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<ysp7b.2237$8q2...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> > I recall an inn a day's march east of Bree. Can't recall the name or
how
> > well it did businesswise.
>
> The Last Inn.
Nope. It's The Forsaken Inn.
Pradera
>> > I recall an inn a day's march east of Bree. Can't recall the name or
> how
>> > well it did businesswise.
>>
>> The Last Inn.
>
> Nope. It's The Forsaken Inn.
The Last Inn was the competition across the street. They had cheaper beer,
but rooms were poor.
Een Wilde Ier
> On 10 wrz 2003, "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> scribbled loosely:
>
>
>>>>I recall an inn a day's march east of Bree. Can't recall the name or
>>
>>how
>>
>>>>well it did businesswise.
>>>
>>>The Last Inn.
>>
>>Nope. It's The Forsaken Inn.
>
>
> The Last Inn was the competition across the street. They had cheaper beer,
> but rooms were poor.
>
Hah! I know a Ranger who says he refers to the first one as the
"God-forsaken" Inn ;-)
--
Een Wilde Ier
I think the American people - I hope the American - I don't think, let
me - I hope the American people trust me. - George W. Bush
Linards Ticmanis
> What surprises me upon re-reading, is the feeling of compassion of the
> troll William for Bilbo. Agreed, he has a full stomach. Nevertheless
> he says: "Poor little blighter!(Whatever that is, H.)Let him go!". Now
> where do we ever read any of the bad guys says anything like that?
The trolls in the Hobbit hunt men as we hunt deer or hares. They're bad-
mouthed and dumb, but they seem to be evil only relatively towards men
(and dwarves), not absolutely.
Cannibalism is sort of a recurring theme in The Hobbit, BTW.
--
Linards Ticmanis
The Master said, "The business of laying on the colors follows the
preparation of the plain ground."
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
(Good job, Pradera)
> Okay, so my questions are:
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
Since it's only him there, I assume he cleans up after himself as necessary.
The dusting and sweeping may take him awhile.
> 2. Did Gandalf 'influence' Bilbo to go with the dwarves? And how strong
> was that influence?
Probably no magic, just the suddenness and conviction of his urging, and
maybe an appeal to Bilbo's inner sense of honour and obligation.
<pins questions answered by others better than I could>
> 7. The castles on the hills - are these the forts of Weather Hills? Then
> why did they look as if built by 'wicked people'?
Ruins of Arnor or the successor kingdoms, maybe? We're probably not far
enough east for them to be Angmarian. The area has such a long history that
they could have been built by a lot of people (maybe even temporary
Orc-works?)
> 9. How come thirteen dwarves, even if soaked and tired, couldn't take on
> three dumb trolls? What would be the best way to deal with the
situation,
> if Gandalf didn't come? What would Gandalf do if he were with them?
Tough question. It seems the Trolls and their lair were a good point to
introduce Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting. If Gandalf was with them, and he
counselled leaving the Trolls alone, the Company is deprived of those
blades. OTOH, Gandalf may have considered it to be his and the Company's
duty to destroy the Trolls and make that part of the road safe.
> 10. Names of the Trolls. Let's assume that there is an internal story
> explanation for why would the troll be named William Huggins - what
would
> it be?
I agree that it is probably an English translation of Bilbo's Hobbitish
embellishment.
> 11. Why were the dwarves seemingly unarmed throughout the whole journey?
> What about their axes? Why Thorin had to use a flaming branch instead of
> something serious?
Such weapons as they had were probably in their luggage. They do seem
lightly armed for Dwarves on such a long trek, don't they? It seems like
hindsight to suggest that precisely because of the length of the journey, it
was in their interest to "travel light." Maybe the road was much safer when
they were exiled. Jumping ahead here, but maybe as they neared Lonely
Mountain, they expected to get what they needed from the Lake-Men or Cousin
Dain.
> 12. Can Trolls be saved after they turn to stone?
I'll address the physical side of the question. I doubt it, except maybe by
Act of Eru or Morgoth.
<pins another good question answered well>
> 14. Okay, so the dwarves were wet, tired and stupid, and they got
caught.
> But Elrond's people? They were running away in fear of _three_ trolls?
> Just how dangerous are the trolls from Hobbit? (this is, I think, one of
> the strongest arguments that Rivendell in late 3rd Age was inhabited by
> very few people)
Not making excuses for the Elves here, but maybe Rivendell had enough to
worry about with Orcs and Wargs to the east.
> Well, that's it. If anyone has other questions, etc. etc.
To the list I might add the question of who built the Trolls' lair? They
probably didn't do it themselves, being recent arrivals in the valley.
Especially the door with a lock and key. I could be wrong, and there may be
different sorts of Trolls, but it seems like the skill and dexterity to make
a lock and key (even Troll-sized) would be beyond them. Another ruin of the
Dunedain, perhaps, or the Elves of Eregion (or even Dwarf-work?)
--
Ernst Stavro Blofeld (Lord Pęlluin,) Ph.D., Count of Tolfalas
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
> I am thankful to you and to Dr.Blofeld (nice kitty! nice eye patch!).
"You're welcome" and "purr" from both of us.
> There are B'10 different kinds of bachelors: tidy and lazy. Bilbo was of
> the tidy variety.
(That's Binary 10 = Decimal 2, for anyone who's wondering.)
I say Bilbo was rather tidy, especially having frequent guests. Maybe the
Shire had Hobbit cleaners occasionally going door-to-door offering their
services? Bilbo could certainly afford it. (Note Gandalf's remark in the
last chapter about selling buttons.)
> > 4. What does it mean 'people spoke strangely'? Was language of Rhudaur
so
> > different from that known in Shire?
> Bree pronunciation was already different from the Shire 'ialect, wasn't
> it?
In the days when the fastest transport was a galloping horse, and an
agricultural population had no need to go anywhere, speech can develop
surprising local variation. Bilbo and his neighbors, in the heartland of
Hobbit culture, might be forgiven for believing that polite folk everywhere
spoke as they did. The Dwarves passing through the Shire, being foreigners,
can be expected to speak strangely.
Henriette
>
> The trolls in the Hobbit hunt men as we hunt deer or hares.
We, does not include me thank you!
> They're bad-
> mouthed and dumb, but they seem to be evil only relatively towards men
> (and dwarves), not absolutely.
>
Unlike the Orcs then, who seem to be totally evil. Nevertheless, no
one has any pity for the Trolls.
Henriette
Pradera
>> The trolls in the Hobbit hunt men as we hunt deer or hares.
>
> We, does not include me thank you!
>
>> They're bad-
>> mouthed and dumb, but they seem to be evil only relatively towards men
>> (and dwarves), not absolutely.
>>
> Unlike the Orcs then, who seem to be totally evil. Nevertheless, no
> one has any pity for the Trolls.
I don't think trolls can even be subject to moral terms like evil or good.
I see them more like badly treated animals, Morgoth's or Sauron's pet dogs,
made into vicious, brutal beasts not of their own will. That's why I asked
the question about troll redemption - if they have souls at all, they
should deserve a chance. If not, then they're not to blame for anything
they did...
Dragan Cvetkovic
> I don't think trolls can even be subject to moral terms like evil or good.
Now, try to explain that to Detritus from City Watch of Ankh-Morpork
(Diskworld series by Terry Pratchett). He is quite a decent guy.
Bye, Dragan
--
Dragan Cvetkovic,
To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer
!!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!
Troels Forchhammer
Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
>
> Well... Gandalf the White certainly did so to Saruman, dragging him
> back to the railing by force of will.
And against the wishes of Saruman ...
I do believe, however, that Gandalf had been given a special
authority over Saruman in particular at that point - to serve as
the judge pronouncing the sentence (though probably not executing
it - that would be the domain of Eru).
> His 'healing' of Theoden and 'inspiring' of the defenders of Minas
> Tirith would probably also technically qualify.
Couldn't these be rejected under the heading that these people
wanted to be helped - to have their spirit and courage lifted.
> That said, I agree that it seems unlikely that Gandalf put the 'magic
> whammy' on Bilbo to get him to agree to the adventure. The book seems
> to suggest that Bilbo was simply affronted by the suggestion that he
> COULDN'T do it.
I wonder if Gandalf would have been willing to give Bilbo's spirit
a nudge with Narya ;-)
And if he did, was he then surprised at how little it did and how
short it worked?
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
ste...@nomail.com
: I wonder if Gandalf would have been willing to give Bilbo's spirit
: a nudge with Narya ;-)
: And if he did, was he then surprised at how little it did and how
: short it worked?
: --
: Troels Forchhammer
: Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Are you suggesting that Bilbo was somehow less affected by
Narya than others? I do not think the fact that the Hobbit's
were more resistant to the corrupting influence of the One Ring
implies that they were resistant to the affects of the Elvish
Rings.
Stephen
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Pradera wrote:
> On 11 wrz 2003, held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) scribbled loosely:
>
>
>>>The trolls in the Hobbit hunt men as we hunt deer or hares.
>>
>>We, does not include me thank you!
>>
>>
>>>They're bad-
>>>mouthed and dumb, but they seem to be evil only relatively towards men
>>>(and dwarves), not absolutely.
>>>
>>
>>Unlike the Orcs then, who seem to be totally evil. Nevertheless, no
>>one has any pity for the Trolls.
>
>
> I don't think trolls can even be subject to moral terms like evil or good.
> I see them more like badly treated animals, Morgoth's or Sauron's pet dogs,
> made into vicious, brutal beasts not of their own will. That's why I asked
> the question about troll redemption - if they have souls at all, they
> should deserve a chance. If not, then they're not to blame for anything
> they did...
>
The story of the trolls turning to stone at sunlight, living under
bridges and harassing travellers is reminiscient of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Remember the 2nd sin of Sodom was killing and looting travellers who
stayed with them, generally causing disruption to the land. When they
were destroyed, Lot left the city at dawn, but his wife turned around
and look behind, and was turned into a pillar of salt (acc. to the
bible.) This may have some resemblance (at least superficial) to the
troll legend. I wonder if there is a link?
Hasan
Pradera
Why not? We know little of Rings and their influence on various people.
Do you think hobbits were resistant to One Ring because of their inherent
'goodness' or some traits of character, or just resistance to this kind
of magic? If the latter is true, then I see no reason why the resistance
couldn't expand to other Rings as well. After all, Dwarves were generally
resistant to the Rings, not to the One only. Perhaps it's the same with
hobbits.
Neil Anderson
> me all of ya already)
>
>
> 1. Did Bilbo really had to clean his entire mansion _by himself_? No
> maids? No housecleaner coming on every other tuesday and thursday except
> on holidays?
>
Perhaps Widow Rumble, who looked after the Gaffer at the end of LotR was a
housemaid to Bilbo in her youth?
> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
I seem to vaguely recall that Karen Wynn Fonstad addressed this in her
Atlas of Middle-earth - however, I cannot remember what she concluded. The
only two rivers we see on the maps in LotR are the Mitheithel (Hoarwell) and
the Bruinen. There may have been some other, lesser stream, that is not on
the maps. For that matter, the route that Bilbo and the Dwarves took may
have been slightly different from that taken by Frodo and Aragorn, taking
them near some river that does not appear in LotR.
Haven't read the Hobbit in ages, so can't remember where they cross the red
roaring river. Could this be equated with the Baranduin, whose name
reflects 'golden brown'? "Golden brown" and "red" are perhaps not so
different.
Neil Anderson
ste...@nomail.com
: On 11 wrz 2003, ste...@nomail.com scribbled loosely:
:> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
:>: I wonder if Gandalf would have been willing to give Bilbo's spirit
:>: a nudge with Narya ;-)
:>: And if he did, was he then surprised at how little it did and how
:>: short it worked?
:>
:>: --
:>: Troels Forchhammer
:>: Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
:>
:> Are you suggesting that Bilbo was somehow less affected by
:> Narya than others? I do not think the fact that the Hobbit's
:> were more resistant to the corrupting influence of the One Ring
:> implies that they were resistant to the affects of the Elvish
:> Rings.
:>
:> Stephen
:>
: Why not? We know little of Rings and their influence on various people.
: Do you think hobbits were resistant to One Ring because of their inherent
: 'goodness' or some traits of character, or just resistance to this kind
: of magic? If the latter is true, then I see no reason why the resistance
: couldn't expand to other Rings as well. After all, Dwarves were generally
: resistant to the Rings, not to the One only. Perhaps it's the same with
: hobbits.
Dwarves were not generally resistant to the Rings. Dwarves could
not be made invisible, but the Rings still affected them. But the
power of the Three Elvish Rings was not to make things invisible, or
to dominate minds, the two things Dwarves were particularly resistant
to, and there is no evidence that Dwarves or Hobbits were less
affected by the Elvish Rings than anyone else. In Lorien, Sam
and Frodo are seemingly as affected by the power of Galadriel's
Ring as much as anyone else.
Stephen
AC
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> in <1178b6d1.03091...@posting.google.com>,
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
>>
>> Well... Gandalf the White certainly did so to Saruman, dragging him
>> back to the railing by force of will.
>
> And against the wishes of Saruman ...
>
> I do believe, however, that Gandalf had been given a special
> authority over Saruman in particular at that point - to serve as
> the judge pronouncing the sentence (though probably not executing
> it - that would be the domain of Eru).
I think, by Gandalf's behavior after Moria, we see pretty clearly that a lot
of constraints that had been placed upon him were removed. After Denethor's
death, he became, for all intents and purposes, the Supreme Allied
Commander.
As to Saruman's judgement, I think we can see when his spirit looked into
the West that it was the Valar who had judged him. I don't think Eru's
direct intervention was necessary. The Valar, and Manwe in particular, had
authority as given to them by Eru.
--
Aaron Clausen
Pradera
loosely:
>> 6. What was the 'rushing, red' river that they were walking along?
>
> I seem to vaguely recall that Karen Wynn Fonstad addressed this in
> her Atlas of Middle-earth - however, I cannot remember what she
> concluded. The only two rivers we see on the maps in LotR are the
> Mitheithel (Hoarwell) and the Bruinen. There may have been some
> other, lesser stream, that is not on the maps. For that matter, the
> route that Bilbo and the Dwarves took may have been slightly different
> from that taken by Frodo and Aragorn, taking them near some river that
> does not appear in LotR.
>
In Strachey's 'Journey of Frodo' this is a small, unnamed stream that
joins with Bruinen south of East Road, while Fonstad, if I read the map
properly, seemingly can't decide between Bruinen and Hoarwell. I suppose
that's as good an answer (guess) as we can get.
BTW, Fonstad apparently does not take the 'their first camp on the
journey' comment seriously. On her map, the last inn would have to be by
the Hoarwell bridge, or even in the middle of the Trollshaws woods with
alternate path. She does name the Lone-lands, though, as land between
Weather Hills and Trollshaws.
Brenda Selwyn
>In the days when the fastest transport was a galloping horse, and an
>agricultural population had no need to go anywhere, speech can develop
>surprising local variation. Bilbo and his neighbors, in the heartland of
>Hobbit culture, might be forgiven for believing that polite folk everywhere
>spoke as they did. The Dwarves passing through the Shire, being foreigners,
>can be expected to speak strangely.
Given the size of the Shire (40 by 50 leagues according to the LotR
Prologue, which I believe is roughly 120 by 150 miles), and the real
life variation in regional accent between say Bath and Basildon,
Winchester and Chesterfield, the good folk of Hobbiton probably
thought the inhabitants of Stock, Scary and Longbottom spoke funny.
In fact the apparent homogeneity of Hobbit speech in terms of
vocabulary is surprising, unless it was actually more variable and the
Red Book doesn't give details.
Being even further away, I would expect the Breeland to have not only
a different accent but its own dialect, with a unique vocabulary.
Certainly Harry the gatekeeper was able to tell from their speech that
Mr Underhill's party were from the Shire.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
Linards Ticmanis
>>The trolls in the Hobbit hunt men as we hunt deer or hares.
>
>
> We, does not include me thank you!
I meant we humans, not you and me personally. I'm not a hunter either.
>>They're bad-
>>mouthed and dumb, but they seem to be evil only relatively towards men
>>(and dwarves), not absolutely.
>>
>
> Unlike the Orcs then, who seem to be totally evil. Nevertheless, no
> one has any pity for the Trolls.
Well in Sam's "Troll sat alone" song they get a pretty decent treatment
IMHO.
Henriette
> Henriette wrote:
>
> > (snip) Nevertheless, no one has any pity for the Trolls.
>
> Well in Sam's "Troll sat alone" song they get a pretty decent treatment IMHO.
You cannot be precise enough when posting to AFT, so I should have
written: in Chapter 2 no one has any pity for the Trolls...
Tschüß,
Henriette
Henriette
>
> I don't think trolls can even be subject to moral terms like evil or good.
> I see them more like badly treated animals, Morgoth's or Sauron's pet dogs,
> made into vicious, brutal beasts not of their own will. That's why I asked
> the question about troll redemption - if they have souls at all, they
> should deserve a chance. If not, then they're not to blame for anything
> they did...
>
that they do have souls.
Henriette
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
held...@hotmail.com (Henriette) wrote:
bring on the trolls
surely there must be trolls
Conrad Dunkerson
> I do believe, however, that Gandalf had been given a special
> authority over Saruman in particular at that point - to serve as
> the judge pronouncing the sentence (though probably not executing
> it - that would be the domain of Eru).
In Letters Tolkien wrote that Gandalf could not have dealt with
Saruman as he did without the enhanced authority and power he was
given after his return. Whether that implies that Gandalf was somehow
responsible for stripping Saruman of most of his powers or just refers
to the ability to command Saruman is debatable.
> Couldn't these be rejected under the heading that these people
> wanted to be helped - to have their spirit and courage lifted.
Yes... it was 'technically' mental influence, but only towards what
they would have been doing anyway if not for some OTHER form of
'depressive coercion'.
> I wonder if Gandalf would have been willing to give Bilbo's spirit
> a nudge with Narya ;-)
Well, out of story Tolkien had not yet conceived of Narya when he
wrote The Hobbit... so nothing therein was originally tied to it in
his mind. As such, there may be things which COULD be linked to
Narya's influence but nothing which MUST be - Tolkien thought the
story consistent without Narya even existing.
So, once Narya was introduced it is possible that it was 'retrofitted'
to explain some of Gandalf's ability to convince others to take
action... and Bilbo would certainly be at the top of the list.
> And if he did, was he then surprised at how little it did and how
> short it worked?
Hmmm... in this case I'd think it was Bilbo's 'natural inclination' to
resist the lure of 'adventure'. Gandalf could have been nourishing
that spark of adventurousness, but it doesn't seem too surprising that
the effect would be temporary at first. Consider the defenders at
Minas Tirith... once Gandalf had passed they quickly sank back into
depression from the Black Breath. That's another outside influence
rather than a natural inclination, but otherwise the situations would
be analogous.
A Tsar Is Born
"Henriette" <held...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be50318e.03091...@posting.google.com...
> he says: "Poor little blighter!(Whatever that is, H.)
Blighter = an inhabitant of Blighty, which is the way Hindu servants in
India pronounced "Britain," thus became (in World War I) the way homesick
soldiers in the trenches referred to home, ergo (fe-fi-fo-fum) William
smells the blood of an Englishman.
But he might have been a Roossian, a French or Turk or Proossian, or perhaps
Eye-tal-eye-an.
Tsar Parmathule
A Tsar Is Born
"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
news:k368b.2429$Rm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Remember the 2nd sin of Sodom was killing and looting travellers who
> stayed with them, generally causing disruption to the land.
What is your source for that intriguing statement?
Tsar Parmathule
A Tsar Is Born
"coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" <mair_...@yahoo.com>
wrote in message news:mair_fheal-11...@c137.ppp.tsoft.com...
> bring on the trolls
> surely there must be trolls
You mean:
Quick send in the trolls
There ought to be trolls
Well, maybe next year
Tsar Parmathule
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Memory, but here is proof.
http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the
Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there
cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why
should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth.
Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
him out...
Babylonian Talmud
the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of
their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the
Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they
had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse
with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to
chastise them for their arrogance...
Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5
****************** Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work
of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They
clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can't site a source) about
the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council
of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective
on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such
new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.
One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or
greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna,
where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting.
"But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this
proposed new legislation!"
"What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the law of
Sodom, long ago!" And he left.
This may be the law of a great superpower, if it ever becomes paranoid
enough.
Hasan
Jette Goldie
"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
>
>
> A Tsar Is Born wrote:
> > "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in
message
> > news:k368b.2429$Rm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> >
> >> Remember the 2nd sin of Sodom was killing and looting travellers who
> >>stayed with them, generally causing disruption to the land.
> >
> >
> > What is your source for that intriguing statement?
> >
> > Tsar Parmathule
> >
> >
>
> Memory, but here is proof.
>
> http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
>
> The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the
> Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there
> cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why
> should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth.
> Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
>
> ... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
> they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
> him out...
Hmmm - wasn't there a character in Greek myth who did the same?
"Procrustes"?
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Morgil
"Jette Goldie" <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> kirjoitti
viestissä:GIn8b.8524$2E3.74...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in
message
> news:Tmm8b.441090$4UE.3...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > ... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
> > they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
> > him out...
>
>
> Hmmm - wasn't there a character in Greek myth who did the same?
> "Procrustes"?
Copycat.
Morgil
Troels Forchhammer
AC <tao...@alberni.net> enriched us with:
>
> I think, by Gandalf's behavior after Moria, we see pretty clearly
> that a lot of constraints that had been placed upon him were removed.
I quite agree. I don't think there can be any dispute about that.
The question is rather if he had any special 'instructions' or
'authority' in the matter of Saruman.
> As to Saruman's judgement, I think we can see when his spirit looked
> into the West that it was the Valar who had judged him.
They judged him at that point - they rejected his spirit, but I don't
think they were involved when Gandalf cast him out of the White Council
and broke his staff, at which point he lost nearly all of his powers,
becoming, effectively, nothing more than an old man with a hypnotic
voice.
> I don't think Eru's direct intervention was necessary. The Valar,´
> and Manwe in particular, had authority as given to them by Eru.
But authority/power to reduce a Maia in that way?
The reasons why I believe that Eru was involved is in part that
the reduction of a Maia in this way seems beyond what the Valar
had ever done before, and the punishment was tightly connected
with Gandalf's pronunciation of the judgement ("Saruman, your
staff is broken.") - and Gandalf surely had had chance to discuss
the traitor with only one of his "superiors".
This has led me to believe that Eru gave Gandalf some instructions
and the authority to pass judgement in the end over Saruman, and
that the executions of the punishment - the removal of his powers -
was the dominion of Eru.
The later rejection of Saruman's spirit from the West would, IMO,
signify the judgement of the Valar, rather than the removal of his
powers in Isengard.
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Jette Goldie wrote:
> "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
> news:Tmm8b.441090$4UE.3...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
>>
>>A Tsar Is Born wrote:
>>
>>>"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in
>
> message
>
>>>news:k368b.2429$Rm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Remember the 2nd sin of Sodom was killing and looting travellers who
>>>>stayed with them, generally causing disruption to the land.
>>>
>>>
>>>What is your source for that intriguing statement?
>>>
>>>Tsar Parmathule
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Memory, but here is proof.
>>
>>http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
>>
>>The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the
>>Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there
>>cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why
>>should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth.
>>Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
>>
>>... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
>>they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
>>him out...
>
>
>
> Hmmm - wasn't there a character in Greek myth who did the same?
> "Procrustes"?
>
>
Definitely.
I don't know the connection. Myths had more apparent roots than one.
Hasan
Henriette
>
> bring on the trolls
> surely there must be trolls
(hums)send in the clowns
there 've got to be clowns
Henriette
Henriette
>
> Blighter = an inhabitant of Blighty, which is the way Hindu servants in
> India pronounced "Britain," thus became (in World War I) the way homesick
> soldiers in the trenches referred to home, ergo (fe-fi-fo-fum) William
> smells the blood of an Englishman.
>
> But he might have been a Roossian, a French or Turk or Proossian, or perhaps
> Eye-tal-eye-an.
>
PS I didn't see your "send in the trolls" post until after I posted my
own "send in the clowns" post.
Henriette
ALuddy
> in <1178b6d1.03091...@posting.google.com>,
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> enriched us with:
>>Tirith would probably also technically qualify.
>
>
> Couldn't these be rejected under the heading that these people
> wanted to be helped - to have their spirit and courage lifted.
These could have been intended not as Gandalf imposing his will on
another, but as Gandalf removing another outside influence that was
preventing those people (Theoden and the Gondorians) from behaving as
they would have chosen in the absence of said influence (Saruman and
Sauron respectively).
Doesn't hold for Saruman being called back, though.
A Tsar Is Born
"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
> A Tsar Is Born wrote:
> > "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in
message
> > news:k368b.2429$Rm1...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> >
> >> Remember the 2nd sin of Sodom was killing and looting travellers who
> >>stayed with them, generally causing disruption to the land.
> >
> > What is your source for that intriguing statement?
(I didn't recall any such message in the passage in Genesis.)
> > Tsar Parmathule
> >
> Memory, but here is proof.
>
> http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
>
> The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the
> Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there
> cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why
> should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth.
> Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
>
> ... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
> they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
> him out...
>
> Babylonian Talmud
Well, it's not proof, exactly -- just a (much later) gloss on a text that
does NOT mention any such thing.
Talmud of course was written down LOOOONG after the events had been
forgotten, under many foreign influences, notably Greek ones. The latter
paragraph gives it away: This story was taken by the Talmudists from Greek
mythology, where it occurs as the story of Procrustes in the legend of
Theseus.
So none of this has anything to do with the myth of Sodom, as recounted in
Genesis.
> the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of
> their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the
> Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they
> had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse
> with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to
> chastise them for their arrogance...
>
> Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5
Also a Hellenized (even Romanized) Jew, so the tradition may or may not have
descended among the Jews. Anyway, these references make it clear that the
sins of Sodom, in Jewish tradition, were not sexual.
Offenses against hospitality (from either direction) are, of course, heinous
in every culture in the region. Jewish tradition is not exceptional in this,
but accords perfectly with Greek, Arab and all the nomadic cultures of the
Middle East.
> ****************** Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work
> of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They
> clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can't site a source) about
> the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council
> of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective
> on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such
> new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.
>
> One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or
> greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna,
> where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting.
> "But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this
> proposed new legislation!"
>
> "What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the law of
> Sodom, long ago!" And he left.
The Gaon was my uncle, ten or so generations removed.
Sounds just like him.
> This may be the law of a great superpower, if it ever becomes paranoid
> enough.
Can't imagine whom you are referring to.
But yes, I agree with you completely, about America's current policy towards
immigrants and foreigners in general.
"We've got ours; now stay out."
This has been the attitude of Americans for a couple of centuries, however,
and is probably universal among human haves vs. have-nots.
Which is why they invent cautionary tales about divine displeasure of such
behavior.
(Nonetheless, America is designed to absorb metics, in a way that European
states are not. The greatest problem facing the nations of Europe just
now -- not that they are willing to face it -- is how to absorb the enormous
numbers of foreigners entering their countries, whom they need because their
own populations are too well-off to be fertile, and too well-educated to do
the menial jobs necessary to keep the economy going.)
Many thanks, Hasan, for some very intriguing references.
Tsar Parmathule
Martin D. Bartsch
>I've got a
>wild guess: if an innocent girl kisses a stoned<g> troll three times when
>sakura is at full bloom, the troll may wake up.
With a dinner in front of ohf him
--
Martin D. Bartsch ARD-Studio Paris German TV Allemande
Arbeitsproben:
http://www.wdr.de/tv/weltweit/aktuell.phtml
Weltreisen-La Reunion ARD 5.10.03 13:15
Igenlode Wordsmith
> What surprises me upon re-reading, is the feeling of compassion of the
> troll William for Bilbo. Agreed, he has a full stomach. Nevertheless
> he says: "Poor little blighter!(Whatever that is, H.)Let him go!". Now
> where do we ever read any of the bad guys says anything like that?
>
He's portrayed there as being drunk and maudlin. Admittedly, even that
is relatively humanising :-)
--
Igenlode <Igenl...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
Henriette
> On 10 Sep 2003 Henriette wrote:
>
> > What surprises me upon re-reading, is the feeling of compassion of the
> > troll William for Bilbo. Agreed, he has a full stomach. Nevertheless
> > he says: "Poor little blighter!(Whatever that is, H.)Let him go!". Now
> > where do we ever read any of the bad guys says anything like that?
> >
> He's portrayed there as being drunk and maudlin. Admittedly, even that
> is relatively humanising :-)
If compassion comes out when a Troll is being drunk and maudlin, it
must be there all the time, slumbering and waiting for a chance to
come out. I never read about an Orc with a "weak" moment like that.
Henriette