Elf-Dwarf anonymity
Chris Wright
AC
Chris Wright <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
The most important incident was the murder of Thingol, King of Doriath by
the Dwarves of Belegost in the First Age. Though Durin's folk had nothing
to do with this, the murder of one of the greatest kings of the Elves
certainly would generate a lot of bad blood.
There also seems to have been some anger over Durin's folk awakening the
Balrog in Khazad-dum, or perhaps it was just Celeborn who was being a jerk.
It must be noted that there were close relations between Dwarves and Elves.
During the First Age, some of the Noldor had at least trade relations with
the Dwarves in Ered Luin (Blue Mountains). As well, there was an extremely
close friendship between Khazad-dum and Eregion; particularly between Narvi
and Celebrimbor.
--
Aaron Clausen
The American
"Chris Wright" <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:MhyWa.579793$3C2.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
>
>
Like it usually does, a misunderstanding.
Elves were notoriously bad at returning the tools they borrowed from the
Dwarves.
To the Elves 12,000 years wasn't a long time to borrow some tools, like say,
hedge clippers.
"Oh, what do you mean he died in the First Age?" asked an Elf, "Well, here
are those clippers he lent me. They're a little dull at the edge now
though."
This, in turn, totally pissed off the Dwarves having had overgrown hedges
for all of those centuries. They might as well have been living underground
because their hedges were so damn big and unruly.
To be fair the Dwarves didn't make it any easier by cornering the market in
underpants production and then constantly using bait and switch tactic with
there more shoddy product.
Then there was the Great Lembas War in 340 TA involving the theft of the
Elves' Lembas recipe by the Dwarves.
Nasty little struggle that was!
The Longbeard Bakers Guild almost had the translation worked out but they
failed in being able to get their ovens hot enough to finish it properly.
After that there was an Elven restraining order against all access to Elvish
lands by the Dwarves.
The few that were allowed on site were required to wear blindfolds until
they reached a secure non-lembas producing area.
Galadriel lifted the order shortly before the lembas patent wore out and
managed to soothe the bad feelings on both sides.
Tolkien made it quite clear in his notes and Letters: NEVER BORROW TOOLS!!
Buy you own.
There you go.
T.A.
Raven
news:MhyWa.579793$3C2.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
> Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
The Silmarillion is your friend. :-)
Cuervo.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
maureen-t...@alberni.net wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:26:52 GMT,
> Chris Wright <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
>
> The most important incident was the murder of Thingol, King of Doriath by
> the Dwarves of Belegost in the First Age. Though Durin's folk had nothing
> to do with this, the murder of one of the greatest kings of the Elves
> certainly would generate a lot of bad blood.
also elves might not have immediately recognize dwarves as intelligent creatures
or perhaps not distint from orcs
in the hurin stories apparently the elves originally hunted
petty dwarves and perhaps other dwarves like animals
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
The American wrote:
> "Chris Wright" <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:MhyWa.579793$3C2.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
>>Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
>>
>>
>
>
> Like it usually does, a misunderstanding.
Not to mention when elvish mountain climbers got frostbite, and had to
be checked into a dwarf hospital. The next thing they knew they had
mithril nails in their bones, with casts and braces--and their fingers
had been amputated.
Dwarvish records do not even go that far back, but elves still remember
the day with clarity.
Hasan
Sul
the Firstborns. Then I think Manwe (maybe Eru...) yelled at him and made
Aule put them away until after the Elves. I guess it just angered the
Dwarves that they had to take the back seat to the Elves.
"Chris Wright" <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:MhyWa.579793$3C2.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
Donald Shepherd
> Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
Elves just don't like people with excessive amounts of hair on their
body. That's why they don't like Dwarves and (bearded) Men, but Hobbits
are fine.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
Graham Lockwood
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:26:52 GMT, Chris Wright <cjwri...@shaw.ca>
> alleged...
>> Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
>
> Elves just don't like people with excessive amounts of hair on their
> body. That's why they don't like Dwarves and (bearded) Men, but Hobbits
> are fine.
Hobbits aren't hairy?!?!?!
What about their FEET?!?!
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
|// For the love of |/
|/ Eru, think about |
| the FEET! /|
Michael Harper
"Chris Wright" <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:MhyWa.579793$3C2.14...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
I think AC is spot on, Thingol's murder and the Khazad-Dum events caused
alot of negative attitute me thinks.
Conrad Dunkerson
> The most important incident was the murder of Thingol, King of Doriath by
> the Dwarves of Belegost in the First Age.
> There also seems to have been some anger over Durin's folk awakening the
> Balrog in Khazad-dum, or perhaps it was just Celeborn who was being a jerk.
Not to mention Elven persecution (by mistake) of the Petty-Dwarves,
several wars between Elves and Dwarves, and just generally different
personalities and outlooks.
> It must be noted that there were close relations between Dwarves and Elves.
The only real friendship that ever existed between the two groups was
the one you note between Eregion and Khazad-dum. Beyond that there
were various instances of alliances and trade agreements, but
relations were always 'cool' at best.
Graham Lockwood
> AC <maureen-t...@alberni.net> wrote in message
> news:<slrnbild8h.7l3.m...@ts1.alberni.net>...
>> The most important incident was the murder of Thingol, King of Doriath by
>> the Dwarves of Belegost in the First Age.
Nogrod, not Belegost.
>> There also seems to have been some anger over Durin's folk awakening the
>> Balrog in Khazad-dum, or perhaps it was just Celeborn who was being a jerk.
>
> Not to mention Elven persecution (by mistake) of the Petty-Dwarves,
> several wars between Elves and Dwarves, and just generally different
> personalities and outlooks.
LIES!
TROLLS!
FLAMES!
The systematic persecution and genocide of the derisively named "Petty"
Dwarves at the hands of the imperialistic Elves hungry for more land is one
of the great tragedies of all time!
Reporter: Where in Beleriand will the talks between Elves and Dwarves be
taking place?
Beleg (Thingol's Press Secretary): Laurelindoreanan.
>> It must be noted that there were close relations between Dwarves and Elves.
>
> The only real friendship that ever existed between the two groups was
> the one you note between Eregion and Khazad-dum. Beyond that there
> were various instances of alliances and trade agreements, but
> relations were always 'cool' at best.
Eol and Maedhros seemed to have better relations with the Dwarves than they
did with a lot of Elves.
Brenda Selwyn
>Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
I've been trying to come up with some sort of wisecrack answer about
how the Dwarves of Khazad-dum didn't want to reveal their identities
to the Elves of Eregion, but unfortuntely I'm too stupid, so I'll have
to settle for suggesting that the word you're looking for might be
"enmity" :-)
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
I may look in on this thread again before it is all over, but in
the meanwhile I have some other pressing business to attend to.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<bre...@matson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >"Chris Wright" <cjwri...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >Just wondering -- how exactly did the elves & dwarves have a falling out?
>
> I've been trying to come up with some sort of wisecrack answer about
> how the Dwarves of Khazad-dum didn't want to reveal their identities
> to the Elves of Eregion, but unfortuntely I'm too stupid, so I'll have
> to settle for suggesting that the word you're looking for might be
> "enmity" :-)
elf dwarf amenities
lembas meets cram
Conrad Dunkerson
> Eol and Maedhros seemed to have better relations with the Dwarves than they
> did with a lot of Elves.
Think you mean Maeglin.
True, but I wasn't considering the two of them a 'group' of Elves. If
we are talking individual examples there are Legolas and Gimli as
well... and undoubtedly many many other instances in which certain
Elves and Dwarves got along with each other better than their people
did in general.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I've been trying to come up with some sort of wisecrack answer about
> how the Dwarves of Khazad-dum didn't want to reveal their identities
> to the Elves of Eregion
Well, that must be the reason they didn't use their real names... all
the Dwarf names in The Hobbit and LotR are 'outer names' for use with
strangers. Their true 'inner names' were secrets shared only with
close family and not even written on their graves.
Morgil
Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
<1178b6d1.03080...@posting.google.com>...
>Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote in
message
news:<BB53D0EB.AD2D%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>...
>
>> Eol and Maedhros seemed to have better relations with the Dwarves than
they
>> did with a lot of Elves.
>
>Think you mean Maeglin.
Maedhros, who was a wise and diplomatic
statesman, tried to maintain good relationships
with all free peoples of Middle-Earth to gain
more allies against Morgoth, wheter they were
Elves, Dwarves or Men. Unfortunately his efforts
were ofted thwarted by his wanker brothers.
Morgil
Conrad Dunkerson
> Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
>> Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
wrote
>>> Eol and Maedhros seemed to have better relations with the Dwarves
than
>>> they did with a lot of Elves.
>> Think you mean Maeglin.
> Maedhros, who was a wise and diplomatic
> statesman, tried to maintain good relationships
> with all free peoples of Middle-Earth to gain
> more allies against Morgoth, wheter they were
> Elves, Dwarves or Men. Unfortunately his efforts
> were ofted thwarted by his wanker brothers.
Yeah, but there is nothing to suggest that Maedhros got along better
with Dwarves than with Elves. He maintained good relations with
Dwarves and Humans, but he was in good standing with most of the Elves
as well.
Eol and Maeglin, on the other hand, were actually friendly with
Dwarves and generally shunned other Elves (until Maeglin's relocation
to Gondolin).
Morgil
Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
<1178b6d1.03081...@posting.google.com>...
>"Morgil" <more...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<bh8mj0$vv3vi$1...@ID-81911.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
>>> Graham Lockwood <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
>wrote
>
>>>> Eol and Maedhros seemed to have better relations with the Dwarves
>than
>>>> they did with a lot of Elves.
>
>>> Think you mean Maeglin.
>
>> Maedhros, who was a wise and diplomatic
>> statesman, tried to maintain good relationships
>> with all free peoples of Middle-Earth to gain
>> more allies against Morgoth, wheter they were
>> Elves, Dwarves or Men. Unfortunately his efforts
>> were ofted thwarted by his wanker brothers.
>
>Yeah, but there is nothing to suggest that Maedhros got along better
>with Dwarves than with Elves. He maintained good relations with
>Dwarves and Humans, but he was in good standing with most of the Elves
>as well.
The bad reputation of Feanoreans reflected on Maedhros
as well. For exemple Melian wonders what evil burdens
the sons of Feanor and doesn't exclude Maedhros. Or the
OP might have been refering to Fifth Battle, where it is
said that he got less help then he would have deserved
from other Elves, but the Dwarves of Belegost joined him.
>Eol and Maeglin, on the other hand, were actually friendly with
>Dwarves and generally shunned other Elves (until Maeglin's relocation
>to Gondolin).
Problem is that not getting along with Elves doesn't
fit well on Maeglin either. His father kept him away
from most of them, but he loved the stories his mother
told about Gondolin and when he got there he became
quite popular.
Morgil