Sauron's Original Name
Donald Shepherd
original name at any point. I immediately mentioned "Gorthaur", but was
corrected that this was also given to him by the Elves (and after
checking my references, the Silm. says it's just the Sindarin version of
Sauron). My question is this, are we actually told Sauron's original
name, either pre-defection, or one that he took for himself after his
defection anywhere?
Chocoholic
"Donald Shepherd" <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.198001b84...@news.cairns.net.au...
He called himself Aulendil (servant of Aule) when he was in Eregion, and
later Annatar (Lord of Gifts). But both of these are Sindarin. It clearly
states in the Sil that few of the Maiar have names in the languages of the
Elves, and that they don't even know for certain how many there are.
Öjevind Lång
paulh
wrote:
Tevildo was Lord of the Cats.. I dont think there is a direct connection tho..
paulh
Conrad Dunkerson
> My question is this, are we actually told Sauron's original name, either
> pre-defection, or one that he took for himself after his defection anywhere?
No. But then, we don't know the original names of MOST of the Ainur.
Remember that the Ainur invented and used the Valarin language before
the Elves awoke and thus any 'original' names would most likely be in
THAT language. We know of several cases where the Valarin name was
'converted' into a form more fitting for Quenya;
A3ulez = Aule
Aromez = Orome
Manawenuz = Manwe
Naexaerra = Nahar
Os(o)sai = Osse
Tulukhastaz = Tulkas
Ul(l)uboz = Ulmo
Thus, it is POSSIBLE that his original Valarin name was alterred to
'Sauron', 'Gorthaur', 'Aulendil', or 'Aulendur'. However this seems
unlikely to me in every case (especially as they have recognizable
elvish root terms).
Matthew Bladen
news:bj7bhvk8qf7kmtior...@4ax.com...
Tevildo occupied the same place in the story of Beren and Luthien in the
Book of Lost Tales as Sauron was later to do in the Silmarillion -- probably
inspired by the Auld Enmity between cats and dogs (Huan).
I believe that another character in the BoLT, 'Tu' or 'Tuvo', a wizard who
finds and awakens two of the first Men in the land where they lie sleeping
before the first dawn, 'is' Sauron, although he is not evil, IIRC. The
similarity
between Tu/Tuvo and Thû (Sauron's original name in the Silmarillion) and
the common skill in sorcery suggest that the character was drafted into
Morgoth's
service as the legendarium evolved into the recognisable 'Silmarillion'
cycle
around the mid-1920s.
Sauron's roots in the mythology were not stable: initially he was Morgoth's
servant
in Valinor during his parole, and accompanied him back to Middle-earth as
his
minion, but in later recensions his allegiance was with Morgoth from almost
the
very beginning. This may suggest that, like Galadriel and Gil-galad, his
'back-
story' had to be extended backwards from the point at which Tolkien placed
(re-placed?) him in the legendarium and was consequently subject to some
reinterpretation, though in no way as drastic as that imposed on some...
It is perhaps worth stressing the point that Sauron was never conceived of
as
having been 'evil in the beginning' -- of course, not even Melkor had been,
but Tolkien made something of a point of Sauron's having been good. Perhaps
this consciousness reflects an awareness of story-internal and
story-external
aspects to the character's development.
--
Matthew
Terry Han
mountain! when he call to frodo "HELLO FRODO it make me , jump of saet
!
BaronjosefR
> original name at any point. I immediately mentioned "Gorthaur", but was
> corrected that this was also given to him by the Elves (and after
> checking my references, the Silm. says it's just the Sindarin version of
> Sauron). My question is this, are we actually told Sauron's original
> name, either pre-defection, or one that he took for himself after his
> defection anywhere?<<<<<<<<<
I am almost certain that I read his original name somewhere in the
Silmarillion, his name being changed by Morgoth when Sauron took service.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Shepherd <donald_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
arent the names of the ainur description of themselves in their languages
with translations in quneya or sindar?
maybe his original name was valarin of -smith of melkor major-
AC
I don't know if I'd say that was Sauron's original name or not. Tevildo
occupies the same place in the story of Beren and Luthien that Sauron later
will, but it's rather hard to match Tevildo directly to Sauron. I'm rather
assuming that the character of Sauron (Thu was Sauron's first name as I
recall) was found (quite rightly, in my opinion) to be a more convincing
character than the Lord of Cats.
--
Aaron Clausen
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Donald Shepherd
> My question is this, are we actually told Sauron's original
>name, either pre-defection, or one that he took for himself after his
>defection anywhere?
I don't believe so. The names we have for the Valar are also
nicknames given them by the Elves and not their own names. I can't
remember where in HoME I read this, however.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> I don't know if I'd say that was Sauron's original name or not. Tevildo
> occupies the same place in the story of Beren and Luthien that Sauron
later
> will, but it's rather hard to match Tevildo directly to Sauron. I'm
rather
> assuming that the character of Sauron (Thu was Sauron's first name as I
> recall) was found (quite rightly, in my opinion) to be a more convincing
> character than the Lord of Cats.
Then, the circumstance that the pupil of Sauron's Eye is described as
"slitted like that of a cat" would constitue a remnant of his previous
existence as the Lord of Cats.
And then there are the evil cats of Queen Berúthiel. Tolkien does not
appear to have been a cat person.
Öjevind
Conrad Dunkerson
> I don't believe so. The names we have for the Valar are also
> nicknames given them by the Elves and not their own names. I can't
> remember where in HoME I read this, however.
I'd dispute that for many of them. Orome was stated to have given
himself that name after first meeting the Elves (apparently a
variation of his Valarin name 'Aromez'). Several of the other Ainur
have Valarin names that were clearly modified into 'Quenya-ized'
forms, as shown in a prior post to this thread. Thus, not so much
'nicknames' as versions of their existing names which were more easily
pronounced. However, SOME of the Ainur did have names which seem to
be constructed from Quenya roots. For instance,
Yavanna = From Quenya 'Yav = fruit' / 'anna = gift'
Olorin = From Quenya 'olos = dream / vision'
Simon J. Rowe
> Tolkien does not appear to have been a cat person.
Letters 219
"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"
No clues to what he thought about more common breeds,
Simon
Öjevind Lång
Oh, dear. I think Siamese cats are beautiful. But I suppose that to
catophobes (or whatever the technical term may be), they are especially
catty and horrible.
Öjevind
Graham Lockwood
Maybe he had just seen Disney's "Lady and the Tramp" too many times?
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Mark Landin
<trib...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>It is perhaps worth stressing the point that Sauron was never conceived of
>as
>having been 'evil in the beginning' -- of course, not even Melkor had been,
>but Tolkien made something of a point of Sauron's having been good.
If only Luke Skywalker could have been there to turn him back again in
the end...
the softrat
<ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> And then there are the evil cats of Queen Berúthiel. Tolkien does not
>appear to have been a cat person.
>
>Öjevind
>
Actually, according to his biographers, he rather liked cats. Note
that he did not have any pet in his house, although that may be
Edith's preference.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the
cheese. -- Steven Wright
Bill O'Meally
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:6r6ehvo9b57oue6rd...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:04:55 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
> <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> > And then there are the evil cats of Queen Berúthiel. Tolkien does
not
> >appear to have been a cat person.
> >
> >Öjevind
> >
> Actually, according to his biographers, he rather liked cats. Note
> that he did not have any pet in his house, although that may be
> Edith's preference.
Are you sure about that? There's the curious postscript to one of his
letters (definitely not his best poetry!).
"J.R.R. Tolkien
had a cat named Grimalkin:
once a familiar of Herr Grimm,
now he spoke the law to him."
_Letters_ #309, p 398
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Graham Lockwood
>> Actually, according to his biographers, he rather liked cats. Note
>> that he did not have any pet in his house, although that may be
>> Edith's preference.
>
> Are you sure about that? There's the curious postscript to one of his
> letters (definitely not his best poetry!).
>
> "J.R.R. Tolkien
> had a cat named Grimalkin:
> once a familiar of Herr Grimm,
> now he spoke the law to him."
> _Letters_ #309, p 398
That's *horrible*!
Is it *supposed* to rhyme?!?!?! ;)
Bill O'Meally
"Graham Lockwood" <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
wrote in message
news:BB3CB871.9FE3%GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis...
> Bill O'Meally said:
> > "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> {snip}
> >> Actually, according to his biographers, he rather liked cats. Note
> >> that he did not have any pet in his house, although that may be
> >> Edith's preference.
> >
> > Are you sure about that? There's the curious postscript to one of
his
> > letters (definitely not his best poetry!).
> >
> > "J.R.R. Tolkien
> > had a cat named Grimalkin:
> > once a familiar of Herr Grimm,
> > now he spoke the law to him."
> > _Letters_ #309, p 398
>
> That's *horrible*!
:-)
(Oh, BTW it should be "a cat *called* Grimalkin". Not that the
alliteration is much improvement.)
>
> Is it *supposed* to rhyme?!?!?! ;)
Not unless he really pronounced his name "Tal-kin", which would
contradict his statement that "...it is pronounced by me
always -*keen*."
_Letters_ #347 p 428
Graham Lockwood
> "Graham Lockwood" <GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis>
>> Bill O'Meally said:
{snip}
>>> "J.R.R. Tolkien
>>> had a cat named Grimalkin:
>>> once a familiar of Herr Grimm,
>>> now he spoke the law to him."
>>> _Letters_ #309, p 398
>>
>> That's *horrible*!
>
> :-)
>
> (Oh, BTW it should be "a cat *called* Grimalkin". Not that the
> alliteration is much improvement.)
Nope. No improvement at all...
>> Is it *supposed* to rhyme?!?!?! ;)
>
> Not unless he really pronounced his name "Tal-kin", which would
> contradict his statement that "...it is pronounced by me
> always -*keen*."
> _Letters_ #347 p 428
Well, "Grimalkin" could be pronounced "Grimalkeen"... I suppose...
But the thing is that it kinda-sorta rhymes. Tolkien/Gimalkin. Grimm/him.
But kinda-sorta rhymes are worse than no rhymes at all IMO.
Blech. Good think he improved a bit in some of his other poetry...
Bilbo Baggins
Had a box with a mithril coat in
And also a sword named Sting
And lots of other things.
Conrad Dunkerson
> And then there are the evil cats of Queen Berúthiel. Tolkien does not
> appear to have been a cat person.
As others have noted, it isn't entirely clear. I tend to think that
he wasn't particularly fond of them, but there is some evidence to the
contrary. One (though a stretch) which hasn't been mentioned yet is;
"...(his cat he [Sauron] calls her [Shelob], but she owns him not)".
Shelob's Lair
Now, 'owns' here probably means that Shelob did not 'recognize'
Sauron's authority. However, it could also be a 'cat lover' type joke
about how cats always seem to think that they own the humans.
Jens Kilian
> Bill O'Meally said:
> > "J.R.R. Tolkien
> > had a cat named Grimalkin:
> > once a familiar of Herr Grimm,
> > now he spoke the law to him."
> > _Letters_ #309, p 398
>
> That's *horrible*!
>
> Is it *supposed* to rhyme?!?!?! ;)
It's a clerihew; these things aren't even supposed to *scan* :-)
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Öjevind Lång
> Öjevind Lång said:
> > "Simon J. Rowe" <sr...@mose.org.uk> wrote:
> >> Öjevind Lång wrote:
> >>> Tolkien does not appear to have been a cat person.
> >> Letters 219
> >> "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"
> >> No clues to what he thought about more common breeds,
> > Oh, dear. I think Siamese cats are beautiful. But I suppose that to
> > catophobes (or whatever the technical term may be), they are especially
> > catty and horrible.
>
> Maybe he had just seen Disney's "Lady and the Tramp" too many times?
Two of Sauron's most dreaded agents were the spies Si and Am.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Blech. Good think he improved a bit in some of his other poetry...
>
> Bilbo Baggins
> Had a box with a mithril coat in
> And also a sword named Sting
> And lots of other things.
"Sam and Rosie were lovers.
He wanted to give her many things:
Niphredil... mithril... but most of all
a certain Ring."
Öjevind
Andrew Wells
> "Sam and Rosie were lovers.
> He wanted to give her many things:
> Niphredil... mithril... but most of all
> a certain Ring."
Is there any truty to the rumour that a certain piece of, erm, male
jewellery was called a "Mayor Samwise" in the Shire in the Fourth Age?
Andrew
Matthew Bladen
news:1178b6d1.03071...@posting.google.com...
Don't forget the poem 'Cat' in 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil',
originally written for one of Tolkien's grandchildren. The appreciation of
the essential wildness of the beast is delicately and sympathetically
depicted.
--
Matthew
BaronjosefR
Öjevind<<<<<<
They originally started out as shepherds, which spawned this great line, which
I believe was in one of the histories.
{{{{{{{1st anonymous gaurd "Look, it's a shepherd.
2nd anonymous gaurd "No, it isn't. he is a spy."
1st anonymous gaurd "He must be a shepherd spy"}}}}}
For those of you who got that, congrarts. For those of you who didn't, you
might want to become fans of an old English comedy, the Goon Show.
BaronjosefR
Gorgauth, but it is unclear if that is his original name.
AC
> I did find a refernce in the Silmarillion that Sauron was once known as
> Gorgauth, but it is unclear if that is his original name.
I think you mean Gorthaur, which is the Sindarin variant of Sauron.
--
Aaron Clausen
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> Two of Sauron's most dreaded agents were the spies Si and Am.
>
> Öjevind<<<<<<
>
>
> They originally started out as shepherds, which spawned this great line, which
> I believe was in one of the histories.
>
> {{{{{{{1st anonymous gaurd "Look, it's a shepherd.
>
> 2nd anonymous gaurd "No, it isn't. he is a spy."
>
> 1st anonymous gaurd "He must be a shepherd spy"}}}}}
"Are you a spy?"
"Yes!"
"Then why are you covered in mince?"
"I'm a mince spy!"
> For those of you who got that, congrarts. For those of you who didn't, you
> might want to become fans of an old English comedy, the Goon Show.
The Goon Show, you say? Well, ying tong yiddle i po, I've never heard
of them.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
sewer and die." - Mel Brooks
BaronjosefR
of them.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com><<<<
It was a pre-curser to Monty Python. I think 4 of them worked on that show,
including Gilliam.
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@yahoo.com> alleged...
> > might want to become fans of an old English comedy, the Goon Show.
>
> The Goon Show, you say? Well, ying tong yiddle i po, I've never heard
> of them.
*sigh* I'm slipping, I missed the perfect line of "I don't wish to know
that!" and only thought of it after I'd sent the message. :(
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
> The Goon Show, you say? Well, ying tong yiddle i po, I've never heard
> of them.<<<<
>
> including Gilliam.
And here I was thinking the "ying tong yiddle i po" would've given away
the fact that I have in fact heard of them. :) They're great, I really
enjoy them. The Goons were Peter Sellers, Harry Seccombe and Spike
Milligan, with a couple of regular stand-ins, none of who (to my
knowledge) worked on Monty Python.
--
Donald Shepherd
<donald_shepherd @ hotmail . com>
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open
BaronjosefR
the fact that I have in fact heard of them. :) They're great, I really
enjoy them. The Goons were Peter Sellers, Harry Seccombe and Spike
Milligan, with a couple of regular stand-ins, none of who (to my
knowledge) worked on Monty Python.<<<<
My understanding is that the Pythoners were writers, and very rarely appeared,
except as filler. Neil Innes was involved, I believe though.
Donald Shepherd
alleged...
Spike Milligan wrote almost all of the Goon Show, with some input from
the other Goons. I can't find any reference to Neil Innes being
involved with the Goon Show after a couple of Google searches.
AC
Donald Shepherd <donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2003 15:18:10 GMT, BaronjosefR <baron...@aol.com>
> alleged...
>> And here I was thinking the "ying tong yiddle i po" would've given away
>> the fact that I have in fact heard of them. :) They're great, I really
>> enjoy them. The Goons were Peter Sellers, Harry Seccombe and Spike
>> Milligan, with a couple of regular stand-ins, none of who (to my
>> knowledge) worked on Monty Python.<<<<
>>
>> My understanding is that the Pythoners were writers, and very rarely appeared,
>> except as filler. Neil Innes was involved, I believe though.
>
> Spike Milligan wrote almost all of the Goon Show, with some input from
> the other Goons. I can't find any reference to Neil Innes being
> involved with the Goon Show after a couple of Google searches.
This is the timeline I managed to garner from http://www.thegoonshow.co.uk.
The first Goon Show was recorded in May 1951. The last was recorded in
January 1960.
Neil Innes was born, according to http://www.neilinnes.org, on December 9th,
1944. This would have made him 15 years old when the last Goon Show was
recorded.
It isn't much better for the members of Monty Python, who were all (as I
recall) born in the late 1930s and early 1940s (I know John Cleese was born
in 1939). While they admit that the Goon Show was an enormous influence,
none of them, as far as I can tell, were involved in any way in the writing.
Spike does appear in Life of Brian, though.
--
Aaron Clausen
Matthew Bladen
news:MPG.1984024a1...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On 19 Jul 2003 15:18:10 GMT, BaronjosefR <baron...@aol.com>
> alleged...
> > And here I was thinking the "ying tong yiddle i po" would've given away
> > the fact that I have in fact heard of them. :) They're great, I really
> > enjoy them. The Goons were Peter Sellers, Harry Seccombe and Spike
> > Milligan, with a couple of regular stand-ins, none of who (to my
> > knowledge) worked on Monty Python.<<<<
> >
> > My understanding is that the Pythoners were writers, and very rarely
appeared,
> > except as filler. Neil Innes was involved, I believe though.
>
> Spike Milligan wrote almost all of the Goon Show, with some input from
> the other Goons. I can't find any reference to Neil Innes being
> involved with the Goon Show after a couple of Google searches.
The various writing teams that were cherrypicked by Barry Took to form
the line-up for Monty Python (they didn't come together by themselves) wrote
and
performed in a number of radio and TV series of the 1960s (At Last The 1948
Show, I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again etc.), but the only involvement that
any of
the Pythons had in the Goon Show that I can think of is when John Cleese
took
the announcer's role in a 60s broadcast of 'The Whistling Spy Enigma' (first
performed in 1955). I think the experience rather unnerved him.
The early Goon Shows came out of brainstorming sessions that were put on
paper
by Spike Milligan and Larry Stephens, and edited by Jimmy Grafton. Later on,
Spike was responsible for plots and scripts with the assistance of Stephens,
Eric Sykes (who wrote a few scripts more or less on his own, which are all
excellent), Maurice Wiltshire and John Antrobus, as well as writing on his
own.
Stephens and Wiltshire wrote a few together and without Spike. Wiltshire
also
adapted some of the radio scripts for use on the TV series 'The Telegoons.'
At least three of the Pythons were avid Goon fans (Cleese, Jones and Palin
have
all said as much to my certain knowledge, and Palin does some very
creditable
impersonations of some of the characters, especially Major Bloodnok), but
the
influence was quite definitely all one-way, Goons -> Python.
--
Matthew
Donald Shepherd
<trib...@yahoo.co.uk> alleged...
<snip>
Thanks for that, I knew you'd know for certain but I wasn't sure if you
were going to see the thread. :)
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<donald_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 22:25:18 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Bladen
> <trib...@yahoo.co.uk> alleged...
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for that, I knew you'd know for certain but I wasn't sure if you
> were going to see the thread. :)
when are you people going to stop flodding aft
with all these off topic issues
do you know how annoying it is to wade through all this jiunk
anyway
so what were the bene gesserit planning to do with the kwizat haderach
once they got one
did they really think they could control a transcendent man
to acheive their ends
what were their ends anyway
after breeding sucj a creature
Tancred
> He called himself Aulendil (servant of Aule) when he was in Eregion, and
> later Annatar (Lord of Gifts).
Lord of Gifts, huh...
SAURON: "Hello everyone! Have you been good boys? I believe you wrote
'Rings of Power' on your lists yes? MWAHAHA - er, hohoho!"
*gives presents to all and sundry*
ELROND: "... did you find something... strange about that man,
Celebrimbor?"
CELEBRIMBOR: "You just don't believe in Santa, *DO* you?"
The American
"Tancred" <dioclet...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f372d5c4.03072...@posting.google.com...
Huh?
Are you saying that Sauron is.... Santa?
Is that some Sindarion translation?
Wait...
Sauron did live the in the most inaccessible part of ME.
He did operate under the cover on night/darkness.
Maybe his problems with the Elves was just an extreme workers strike!
And since the Elves were able to shut him down THEY got to rewrite history
in such a way as to make Sauron the Bad Guy.
Orcs were just SCAB Elves!
The Nazgul were just Managers.
The Ring was the only way to get those Elves to make toys for all the good
little boys and girls.
It backfired though.
No Sauron = No Toys = No Work.
That's why they all had to leave ME, TO FIND WORK!
The White Council = Union Leaders.
T.A.
Ermanna
The American made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> "Tancred" <dioclet...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:f372d5c4.03072...@posting.google.com...
<shnip>
> > SAURON: "Hello everyone! Have you been good boys? I believe you wrote
> > 'Rings of Power' on your lists yes? MWAHAHA - er, hohoho!"
> >
> > *gives presents to all and sundry*
> >
> > ELROND: "... did you find something... strange about that man,
> > Celebrimbor?"
> >
> > CELEBRIMBOR: "You just don't believe in Santa, *DO* you?"
>
> Huh?
> Are you saying that Sauron is.... Santa?
Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
<shnip>
> T.A.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Imladris,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles,
Protector of Kittens and Hamsters, Wielder of Tinwë and Smiter,
Warrior Princess of AFT/RABT
You've read too much fantasy when you read "spell-checker"
and you think of checking magic spells for flaws.
The American
"Ermanna" <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> wrote in message
news:3F1D39DC...@nospam.solinas.org...
>
>
> >
> > Huh?
> > Are you saying that Sauron is.... Santa?
>
> Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
> <shnip>
>
Other than the similar choice of homes in the frozen waste what makes you
say that?
I need some proof!
Cite me some proof, woman.
Sauron was called "The Lord of Gifts" by the Elves themselves!
What about the Eye of Sauron?
He could see if you were bad or good, for goodness sake!
The Nazgul/Toy Production Managers flew of flying steeds/reindeer.
Maybe Morgoth trained Sauron in toy production but most of the lovely
holiday traditions come from Sauron himself, like:
the killing and decorating of trees/Ents, tinsel/mithril, fuzzy sweaters and
glass blown ornaments (wrongly said by striking Elves to be chopped off
Gondorian heads).
T.A.
Garus Marinar
mountain! when he call to frodo "HELLO FRODO it make me , jump of saet
!
>>
You sound like an Orc
Ermanna
The American made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> "Ermanna" <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> wrote in message
> news:3F1D39DC...@nospam.solinas.org...
> > > Huh?
> > > Are you saying that Sauron is.... Santa?
> >
> > Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
> > <shnip>
>
> Other than the similar choice of homes in the frozen waste what makes you
> say that?
>
> I need some proof!
> Cite me some proof, woman.
<shnip>
Morgoth lived in the North! He was the only one who enslaved Elves!
It's very wrong that Santa can see you all the time! How else would
he do it than by mind-controlled slaves? Like Morgoth had! He's trying
to destroy us in the most devious method possible! By corrupting
children with greed! He's too evil to be Sauron, HE'S MORGOTH!!!
MORGOTH, I TELL YOU!!!!!
> T.A.
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Imladris,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles,
Protector of Kittens and Hamsters, Wielder of Tinwė and Smiter,
Morgil
"Ermanna" <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> kirjoitti
viestissä:3F1E744B...@nospam.solinas.org...
>
>
> The American made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> > I need some proof!
> > Cite me some proof, woman.
> <shnip>
> Morgoth lived in the North! He was the only one who enslaved Elves!
> It's very wrong that Santa can see you all the time! How else would
> he do it than by mind-controlled slaves? Like Morgoth had! He's trying
> to destroy us in the most devious method possible! By corrupting
> children with greed! He's too evil to be Sauron, HE'S MORGOTH!!!
> MORGOTH, I TELL YOU!!!!!
YES!! And! Morgoth was the ORIGINAL Lord of the Gifts!
Sauron merely borrowed the name. Or more precisely, he was
"Giver of Gifts", and he would bring presents to all Humans who
were nice and sacrificed others in his name. Jsut like Santa...
Morgil
Jens Kilian
> Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
I thought Bombadil was Santa, and Sauron was the Grinch:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C3909E8.7059%40wizvax.net
Öjevind Lång
He does not. If Orcs spoke like Terry, Gorbag and Shagrat would sound like
this:
"Not know it don't" said Gorbag's voice. "Messages fly across like sandwhich
than no one rules. But I don't ask him no how this done or not, perhaps. Say
feast not too, grr! Those nazgul give me Creeps. And their skins like bodies
off you as they not look away, and cold in the dark space like Gollum. But
he likes them, nice Maaster? Ra ra favourites no days, so is no use make
trouble they make trouble. It's not poker or bezique being put on tabel in
big city like Minas Tirith?"
"You not to grumble you not seerve with big evil spider that is a she",
said Shagrat.
Öjevind
Bill O'Meally
"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:YnzTa.1099$Y5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
LOL!
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
Ermanna
Jens Kilian made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> Ermanna <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> writes:
> > Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
>
> I thought Bombadil was Santa, and Sauron was the Grinch:
That's what Morgoth wants you to think.
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C3909E8.7059%40wizvax.net
> --
> mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
> http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
> As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
> so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight, Lady of Imladris,
Headmistress of the AFT/RABT Charm School,
Hug-Therapist, Queen of the Balrog Wingophiles,
Protector of Kittens and Hamsters, Wielder of Tinwė and Smiter,
Morgil
"Ermanna" <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> kirjoitti
viestissä:3F1EF680...@nospam.solinas.org...
>
>
> Jens Kilian made dwagin-sized wripples in the Force:
> > Ermanna <Erm...@nospam.solinas.org> writes:
> > > Ridiculous! Everyone knows that Santa is Morgoth!
> >
> > I thought Bombadil was Santa, and Sauron was the Grinch:
>
> That's what Morgoth wants you to think.
Feanor was the original Crinch.
"Steal the Gifts" = "Reclaim the Silmarils"
"Ruin the Christmas" = "Destroy Morgoth's rule over Middle-Earth"
Should be obvious.
Morgil
Jim Deutch
(Conrad Dunkerson) wrote:
>"...(his cat he [Sauron] calls her [Shelob], but she owns him not)".
>Shelob's Lair
>
>Now, 'owns' here probably means that Shelob did not 'recognize'
>Sauron's authority. However, it could also be a 'cat lover' type joke
>about how cats always seem to think that they own the humans.
Ah! I'd always been intrigued by that "owns him not" quote (even to
the point of wondering if it was a typo) and generally interpreted it
your second way, as a cat-lover joke, but there is indeed a definition
of "own":
"To admit as being in accordance with fact, truth, or a claim;
acknowledge. "
Which is sorta close to your first interpretation (though leaning more
to the "Own up, now: I know you're the one who did it!" meaning) but
this is from an American dictionary -- British usage often differs.
Anyone got a cite for "own" meaning "recognize as an authority"?
Jim Deutch
--
I used to be an agnostic, but now I'm not so sure.
Brenda Selwyn
>And here I was thinking the "ying tong yiddle i po" would've given away
>the fact that I have in fact heard of them. :) They're great, I really
>enjoy them. The Goons were Peter Sellers, Harry Seccombe and Spike
>Milligan, with a couple of regular stand-ins, none of who (to my
>knowledge) worked on Monty Python.
Michael Bentine was also a regular in the early days. AFAIK he had
nothing to do with Python either.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
I may look in on this thread again before it is all over, but in
the meanwhile I have some other pressing business to attend to.
Brenda Selwyn
>"Simon J. Rowe" <sr...@mose.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>> > Tolkien does not appear to have been a cat person.
>>
>> Letters 219
>>
>> "I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor"
>
>Oh, dear. I think Siamese cats are beautiful.
Despite choosing to share my house with one, I can sometimes see where
Prof. Tolkien is coming from here:-)
Conrad Dunkerson
> Anyone got a cite for "own" meaning "recognize as an authority"?
"So be it, Lord; thy throne shall never,
Like earth's proud empires, pass away;
Thy kingdom stands, and grows for ever
Till all thy creatures own thy sway."
John Ellerton
Jim Deutch
(Conrad Dunkerson) wrote:
That's just the (already mentioned) meaning of "acknowledge".
Still, it's a legitimate reading: "his cat he calls her, but she owns
(acknowledges) him not" i.e. she doesn't care what he thinks at all.