Elven Menses
Robert J. Kolker
Bob Kolker
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<bobk...@attbi.com> wrote:
> Did Elven women have periods?
i think they used three dots like other tengwar scribes
Maeglin Lómion
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3EFB9CEF...@attbi.com...
> Did Elven women have periods?
>
> Bob Kolker
>
If they have PMS and a quiver of arrows, stay out of their way.
»»-----Maeglin-->
Jussi Jaatinen
> Did Elven women have periods?
Menstruation does feel like an unnecessarily messy affair for them,
especially if they'd menstruate every month like humans and go on doing
that for millennia only to produce 2-3 offspring. So, there are 2
options:
1) Their cycle is very long (once in 10 years, say)
2) They menstruate at each act of copulation (like rabbits)
I vote for 1).
-JJ
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
> Did Elven women have periods?
>
> Bob Kolker
>
I doubt pure beings had menses. But if they did then the important
question is -- are they synchronized to the phases of the moon, or of
the evening star Earendil? Because Venus has phases like the moon does,
and so too did Earendil perhaps.
Hasan
Robert J. Kolker
Jussi Jaatinen wrote:
> 2) They menstruate at each act of copulation (like rabbits)
Oi! Yucccchhhhh. Elven men must have strong stomachs.
>
> I vote for 1).
From your mouth to Eru's ear.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote:
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>
>> Did Elven women have periods?
>>
>> Bob Kolker
>>
>
> I doubt pure beings had menses.
Oh really. Do elven children grow under malorn trees?
Bob Kolker
Morgil
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:3EFC5C4D...@attbi.com...
Did Elven women have labour pains?
Morgil
SLJ
came thousands of years later the elven women couldn't be synchronized to
either.
I'm going to give my best guess about Elven women having periods (for all
it's worth) -
The major difference between elves and men are the fact that elves are
immortal. Now since having periods is necessary to human women in having
children, it must also be the same for elven women.
As for how often they have their periods we have no possible way of knowing.
But I would venture to guess that they were the same as human women. I also
believe, although I cannot back up my belief, that having their period was
relatively painless. After all elves were created superior to men, at least
as I gather from the 'writings', and therefore the women would also be less
likely to suffer.
"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
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RufusTFirefly
>
> Bob Kolker
>
yes they do, and they also have the concession on bottles of 'The light of
Elindil' <snicker>
Andrew Wells
> Did Elven women have periods?
Yes, I think so. Elves and humans are the same species, or practically so -
they can interbreed, and their offspring are fertile.
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
Austin Johnson
"Morgil" <more...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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>
>
> Did Elven women have labour pains?
>
> Morgil
>
>
I would imagine not, since Tolkien was a Christian and specifically wrote
his mythology to fit within the bounds of Biblical truth. The Silmarillion
answers no questions about the eternal destiny of men, that is left to the
Bible. The same works backwards: since the Bible says nothing about elves,
the Silmarillion is our only text on their mythology. I would say,
therefore, since Men did have a fall from grace, as recorded in the Bible,
along with all of its consequences, and Elves did not, Elven women did not
experience labour pain.
zett
Number 1 sounds reasonable; I have also theorized that they may only
cycle once every 'season' - the seasons being those laid out in the
appendices at the end of RoTK. Or maybe they only cycled once every
yén (144 of our years).
BTW, rabbits do not menstuate at copulation, they ovulate at
copulation (as do cats).
Jussi Jaatinen
zett wrote:
> BTW, rabbits do not menstuate at copulation, they ovulate at
> copulation (as do cats).
I stand corrected.
-JJ
LITTLE LOCUS
I was under the distinct impression that Elves were like humans in all
that they weren't (doh!) and that Tolkien went to great lengths in his
own essays to state WHAT were the diferences. So I think it's safe to
asume that in every thing he DIDN'T say they were diferent, they would
work similarly.
I was also under the distinct impression that in nowere is stated that
they have exceedingly small heads nor surprisingly wide hips, nor that
they did walk in all fours. Please correct me if I'm wrong, maybe it's
just a matter of it never being mentioned in LOTR, Hobbit nor SIL and
the fact is mentioned somwhere else published on a later date that I've
not read. ;-D
So, based in four simple facts,
- elves and humans are very similar in most basic things
- mankind's labor pain is caused because our big head (a necessity of
our big brain) is too big to fit easily through the too narrow "labor
channel" (actual name) of the female hip, human hip which is twisted in
a funny way (a necessity of our bipedal position)
- elves do have human-sized heads, human-sized hips and are bipedal, and
- elves are every bit as susceptible as pain as we humans are (go, go
and ask Maedros if his hands do ache) ;)
we can but conclude that it must have been as painful and dificult for
them as for anyone else standing on two legs. I agree that their higher
natural curative capability would probably account for a less traumatic
post-labor experience, owever.
On another tone: One thing is ro realice there IS a very high Christian
influence in Tolkien's world, and another one is to carry it TOO far
away. For example, and sorry for the bluntness of the example, they are
most definitely NOT awaiting a Mesiah. No, Earendil does NOT count -he
is NOT a God. And likewise, men are NOT a fallen from glory race to whom
death and pain are a punishment for defying God. Or didn't you notice,
death is a GIFT from Illuvatar to them? So... here goes don the whole
theory of Elves being so pure as to not suffer labor pains. To take
every available Bible methaphor(sp? not native English speaker...) and
run away with it to justify a "cool" idea like "elves are sooo cool that
they should not feel pain" even when we do know they do suffer it (ask
Celebrian), does no good.
L.L.
--
"We must. We can. We will".
(Christopher Reeve)
Robert J. Kolker
LITTLE LOCUS wrote:
> every available Bible methaphor(sp? not native English speaker...) and
> run away with it to justify a "cool" idea like "elves are sooo cool that
> they should not feel pain" even when we do know they do suffer it (ask
> Celebrian), does no good.
>
For anatomical reasons Elven women would have to have contractions just
like humans. The question is: did the contractions hurt? We have nothing
from the Tolkien texts or notes to indicate yea nor nay.
I recall reading somewhere that well favored races of humans like the
Numenorians resembled Elves. There were some passages that indicated
Aragorn resembled an Elven prince when he was attired in Elven garb and
jewlery. So we may assume that the tallest humans with the most
dignified and nobel bearing closely resembled Elves. The course of
years and aging would reveal the difference. So highclass humans in
their physical prime resembled Elves.
Bob Kolker
Conrad Dunkerson
> As for how often they have their periods we have no possible way of knowing.
> But I would venture to guess that they were the same as human women.
That seems doubtful to me as they would then require either an
enormous quantity of eggs or have run out long before many of them
were said to have born children. If the text where Tolkien indicated
that Elves could choose when they would become pregnant is taken to be
accurate then it might be supposed that elven women only ovulated when
they wanted to.
ste...@nomail.com
: On another tone: One thing is ro realice there IS a very high Christian
: influence in Tolkien's world, and another one is to carry it TOO far
: away. For example, and sorry for the bluntness of the example, they are
: most definitely NOT awaiting a Mesiah.
"'Those of the Old Hope?' said Finrod. 'Who are they?'
'A few,' she said; 'but their number has grown since we came
to this land, and they see that the Nameless can (as they think)
be defied. Yet that is no good reason. To defy him does not undo
his work of old. And if the valour of the Eldar fails here, then
their despair will be deeper. For it was not on the might of Men,
or of any of the peoples of Arda, that the old hope was grounded.'
'What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.
'They say', answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself
enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning
to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that
has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our
undoing.'
Sounds like they are waiting for a Messiah, or perhaps more accurately
with regards to Tolkien's views, that they are waiting for *the* Messiah.
: No, Earendil does NOT count -he
: is NOT a God.
Of course Earendil is not the Messiah. But Tolkien was not
writing about the whole history of earth, just a very remote
time long before our history. The Incarnation was far
in the future, and so has no direct part in the tales of the
early ages.
Stephen
zett
:)While you're busy standing there being corrected, let me stand
corrected on my spelling: it is menstruate. I dunno what menstuating
is...Duh. Maybe it is what Elves do instead? Heh.
Conrad Dunkerson
> ...Elven women did not experience labour pain.
Try telling that to Miriel.
Go on... I dare ya. :)
Raven
news:1178b6d1.03063...@posting.google.com...
Aren't the vast majority.of the ova that a woman is born with destroyed
before they ever have a chance at leaving the ovaries? It could potentially
be that Elven ovaries are more efficient. :-) But of course, if they could
choose when to become pregnant, this would require either control of
ovulation, or early abortion on demand. We know which of the two Tolkien
would certainly not have in mind if he pondered the issue. :-)
Corbeau.
Carl
level? Or do their cells merely replicate with endless precision and
reliability, creating an immortal state for the individual? If Elven eggs are
immortal then they would not have to be shed from the uterus for dying before
fertilization, they could just stay there until they were, and hence Elves
would not menstruate.
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
> Aren't the vast majority.of the ova that a woman is born with destroyed
> before they ever have a chance at leaving the ovaries? It could potentially
> be that Elven ovaries are more efficient. :-) But of course, if they could
> choose when to become pregnant, this would require either control of
> ovulation, or early abortion on demand. We know which of the two Tolkien
> would certainly not have in mind if he pondered the issue. :-)
Interestingly, there are some female mammals who mate and then retain the
sperm in their uterus until they're ready to have their egg(s) fertilized.
Not saying that Elves did that, but it's another possibility...
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
Laurence Gardner says in the book I mentioned before "Realm of the Ring
lords" that the ancient Babylonians 'divine race' who he identified with
elves, had a custom of drinking the menstrual blood of their queens.
They called it "Starfire." It had all kinds of magical properties etc.
-- so he says.
So if you wondered where the 'Light of Earendil' came from, ... just ask
Galadriel. Starfire, Starlight, something about stars and menstrual
blood and elven queens ... something to see into.
Hasan
Jessica L. Price
"Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in message
news:OtXKa.536$x4o...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > Did Elven women have periods?
> >
> > Bob Kolker
> >
>
> I doubt pure beings had menses.
Right. Because it's so unclean and ...female. Sure, they can bear
children, but all that other nasty female stuff...nah.
*Men*!
Graham Lockwood
> "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote
>> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>>> Did Elven women have periods?
>> I doubt pure beings had menses.
>
> Right. Because it's so unclean and ...female. Sure, they can bear
> children, but all that other nasty female stuff...nah.
>
> *Men*!
LOL.
Yeah. I bet the male Elves didn't ejaculate either. They just calmly
deposited their genetic code in the proper receptacle...
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
|// I bet they didn't urinate |
|/ or defecate either. Much too |
| nasty for a "pure being"... /|
jchase
>
> LOL.
>
> Yeah. I bet the male Elves didn't ejaculate either. They just calmly
> deposited their genetic code in the proper receptacle...
>
>
Sound suspiciously like the mating habits of the octopus
Banazir the Jedi Hobbit
> Jessica L. Price said:
>> "Hasdrubal Hamilcar" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote
>>> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>>>> Did Elven women have periods?
>>> I doubt pure beings had menses.
>>
>> Right. Because it's so unclean and ...female. Sure, they can bear
>> children, but all that other nasty female stuff...nah.
>>
>> *Men*!
>
> LOL.
>
> Yeah. I bet the male Elves didn't ejaculate either. They just calmly
> deposited their genetic code in the proper receptacle...
Ironically, this reminds me of Julian May's account of the Krondak
connubial ritual, which she describes as "a stately exchange of
gifts". (I can't recall at the moment whether this is described in
_Jack The Bodiless_ or _Diamond Mask_, which should give you an idea
of how sleepy I am.)
Of course, Krondaku also have multiple eyeball clusters, tentacles,
and fangs, and mate in a vat of tar.
Seriously - in alt.tv.highlander, we had a thread about this very
topic back around 1996 or 1997:
http://snurl.com/1zca
> |// I bet they didn't urinate |
> |/ or defecate either. Much too |
> | nasty for a "pure being"... /|
Are we back to the lembas, then?
--
Banazir