Most Intriguing Silmarillion Character?
Furio97
Bill O'Meally
"Furio97" <fur...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030704191532...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and
Caranthir
For me, it's Turin.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
A Tsar Is Born
Melian.
(I especially DETEST Turin. Even more than Feanor.)
Tsar Parmathule
Jamie Armstrong
Why? I know he makes a lot of mistakes and is a tad arrogant, but he
*is* a tragic hero: he can't help it! It's always fate seeming to work
against him. I find him a rather sympathetic character - he always
*tries* to make the right choice, but because of something he can't
possibly know about it ends up working against him.
Jamie
--
"The more I see of the world, the more am I dissatisfied with it; and
every day confirms my belief of the inconsistency of all human
characters, and of the little dependence that can be placed on the
appearance of either merit or sense."
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> *is* a tragic hero: he can't help it! It's always fate seeming to work
> against him. I find him a rather sympathetic character - he always
> *tries* to make the right choice, but because of something he can't
> possibly know about it ends up working against him.
no he tries to make the wrong decisions
and usually succeeds
he continues to let his pride and arrogance
overwhelm any intelligent thought that attempts entry into his skull
consider morwens own lack of intellect
perhaps turins condition is congenital
Bill O'Meally
"coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-05...@c107.ppp.tsoft.com...
Intriguing!
Morgil
"Furio97" <fur...@aol.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:20030704191532...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and Caranthir
Caranthir?? I didn't think there was enough info about him
to make him interesting...
My vote goes for Feanor.
Morgil
Morgil
> > Why? I know he makes a lot of mistakes and is a tad arrogant, but he
> > *is* a tragic hero: he can't help it! It's always fate seeming to work
> > against him. I find him a rather sympathetic character - he always
> > *tries* to make the right choice, but because of something he can't
> > possibly know about it ends up working against him.
>
> no he tries to make the wrong decisions
> and usually succeeds
>
> he continues to let his pride and arrogance
> overwhelm any intelligent thought that attempts entry into his skull
He tries to walk the line, but circumstances always
push him over it...
But agreed, he was not very 'Zen'.
Morgil
One might even say he was a loof...
AC
I pity Turin. Feanor could have changed his behavior if he had cared at all
about anything but himself and his possessions. With Turin, Morgoth was
going out of his way to make sure the poor guy had a horrific life.
--
Aaron Clausen
AC
There were plenty of prideful people in the Silmarillion. I can't recall
anyone else other than the Children of Hurin who Morgoth actively tried to
make their lives a living hell. He had his faults, but then again things
frequently went awry for him. We'd all be miserable bastards if we were in
his shoes.
--
Aaron Clausen
Stan Brown
>I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and Caranthir
You may change your mind when you get to the end, but of course any
such decision is personal. I do note you said "most intriguing" and
not "favorite".
For me Finrod Felagund is one of the greatest heroes: to fulfill his
promise to Barahir, he forsakes his kingdom _and_ gets himself
killed to protect a mere man who would be dead in a few years
anyway.
Runners-up for most interesting: Ulmo and Tuor.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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C.C. Baxter
20030704191532...@mb-m16.aol.com que:
> I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and
> Caranthir
Fingolfin, for being at the same time friend and foe of
Feanor and his sons, for being loyal to the Valar and
at the same time returning to Middle Earth, for being
abandoned by Feanor and crosiing the Helcaraxe, and still
trying to pact with Maedhros.
--
Buddy
Jamie Armstrong
Graham Lockwood
Ah, but part of being "intriguing" is the mystery involved. For me, the most
intriguing character has always been Eol. Where did he come from? How, when,
and why did he come to Beleriand? What, if any, was his relationship to
Thingol? And true, he wasn't always a very nice guy, but I think he was
largely misunderstood...
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Stan Brown
006c.alberni.net> in rec.arts.books.tolkien, AC <maureen-taocow-
n...@alberni.net> wrote:
>I pity Turin. Feanor could have changed his behavior if he had cared at all
>about anything but himself and his possessions. With Turin, Morgoth was
>going out of his way to make sure the poor guy had a horrific life.
I don't buy that, and I bet Tolkien wouldn't either. Sure, it wasn't
Turin's fault that his mother was lost on the road or that his
sister was ensorcelled by Glaurung. But he made plenty of trouble
for himself, again and again.
Morgoth didn't make Turin insist on building a bridge over the River
Narog. Morgoth didn't make Turin kill a noble in Thingol's court.
Turin was both self-willed and hasty, a dangerous combination.
Would I have done any better in his place? Probably not -- I am
self-willed and hasty too. But that's my point.
Remember Gandalf's speech about tilling the soil we have, but not
being able to control the weather? Turin didn't do a very good job
of tilling his own soil.
Théoden
> (I especially DETEST Turin. Even more than Feanor.)
>
> Tsar Parmathule
>
>
On the end he comes out to be one of the greatest in Dagor Dagorach.
A Tsar Is Born
Turin's arrogance definitely went beyond anything "dealt" to him by Life or
Morgoth. He kills a lot of innocent people for no good reason, and gets
Nargothrond destroyed out of his selfish pride. An overdeveloped childish
halfwit, I'd call him.
The suggestions of Eol and Fingolfin are also good ones.
And Feanor, unlovable as he is, certainly knew a lot, and got his knowledge
from some, however warped, comprehension of the universe that makes him
intriguing.
Another choice might be Idril, a "capable" girl, who readies the escape from
Gondolin without her father's knowledge and without undermining his
authority.
Tsar Parmathule
Chocoholic
"A Tsar Is Born" <Atsarisb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kHvNa.2908$19....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
Poor Turin...
Kinda reminds you of Jude the Obscure in his scale and intensity of
self-destructiveness, doesn't he?
But the thread title is 'most intriguing' not 'most admired'... :) He could
still be intriguing if you have an interest in tragic characters. I think
he's Tolkien's adaptation of Oedipus, trying to 'escape his fate' (even to
the point of vainly naming him self "Turumbar") and bringing it about
because of his efforts to escape it..
Chocoholic
Maybe it's the fact that he has so much later history, but I think Sauron is
probably one of the most interesting characters in the Sil even if he
doesn't have nearly as large a part as many others. He exhibits the same
'traits' in the Sil as later, too, such as the tendency to get himself in
deeper trouble by trying to be clever -- attempting to exploit the 'doom'
foretold for Huan he finds he can't make himself the mightest wolf ever and
loses the fight, for example. Just like his 'tricking' the Numenoreans into
attacking Valinor and getting himself disembodied (again) in the extremely
disproportional response, or trying to use the Witch-King against Gondor
because of the 'prophecy' by Glorfindel "not by the hand of man shall he
fall" and losing him to a woman and a ... hobbit. Sauron just constantly
miscalculates in his attempts at cleverness.
Bill O'Meally
"Chocoholic" <Choco...@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:vgelitm...@corp.supernews.com...
> Maybe it's the fact that he has so much later history, but I think
Sauron is
> probably one of the most interesting characters in the Sil even if he
> doesn't have nearly as large a part as many others. He exhibits the
same
> 'traits' in the Sil as later, too, such as the tendency to get himself
in
> deeper trouble by trying to be clever
Sauron does have a heavy "D'oh!" factor, doesn't he?
Terry Layne
> still be intriguing if you have an interest in tragic characters. I think
> he's Tolkien's adaptation of Oedipus, trying to 'escape his fate' (even to
> the point of vainly naming him self "Turumbar") and bringing it about
> because of his efforts to escape it..
JRRT must have have "naming" on the brain when writing the Turin story.
It seemed like every other paragraph Turin was giving himself an new
name, or some landmark was getting name, or renamed. It really became
annoying. They should have called him Turin the Neologist.
--
Terry Layne
Portland, OR
Robert J. Kolker
Furio97 wrote:
> I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and Caranthir
Faenor, for sure. For better AND for ill. He was the most talented of
Elvenkind, and he had an ego to match. He was just a notch below the Valar.
Bob Kolker
Maeglin Lómion
Uh...I'll let y'all guess. ;)
»»-----Maeglin-->
Glenn Holliday
>
> Maybe it's the fact that he has so much later history, but I think Sauron is
> probably one of the most interesting characters in the Sil even if he
I'd like to see that one-liner about Sauron's repentance and
backsliding after Morgoth's defeat expanded to a chapter.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Glenn Holliday
>
> I'm halfway through and the ones who stand out are Maedhros and Caranthir
Luthien, the first to know both sides of the Elven and Human
kindred.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
Graham Lockwood
{snip}
> Uh...I'll let y'all guess. ;)
>
> »»-----Maeglin-->
Tuor?
Albert Yang
news:VO%Na.53821$8B.2...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
I think that this fascination of yours is going to get you tossed off the
walls of Gondolin.
--
Albert Yang
apy...@NOSPAMearthlink.net
Conrad Dunkerson
> I don't buy that, and I bet Tolkien wouldn't either. Sure, it wasn't
> Turin's fault that his mother was lost on the road or that his
> sister was ensorcelled by Glaurung. But he made plenty of trouble
> for himself, again and again.
It depends on which version of the story you read. In some texts
Tolkien presented Turin as very much a victim of circumstance. In
others he was largely responsible for his own problems. I always
preferred 'Turin the tragic hero' to 'Turin the anti-hero', but both
variants are certainly 'intriguing'. The published Silm leans more
towards 'anti-hero', but contains elements of both.
That said... Tolkien had Turin showing up to fight Morgoth for the
final battle in various texts spanning a period of more than thirty
years. To me that would indicate that Tolkien certainly did not view
Turin as 'totally at fault' or 'beyond redemption'.
Conrad Dunkerson
> I think he's Tolkien's adaptation of Oedipus, trying to 'escape his
> fate' (even to the point of vainly naming him self "Turumbar") and
> bringing it about because of his efforts to escape it..
Actually, Tolkien wrote the story of Turin as a deliberate attempt to
redo the story of Kullervo from the Kalevala. That said, there are
certainly similarities between Kullervo and Oedipus. Michael
Moorcock's 'Elric' was also based on Kullervo. Four different takes
on the same essential 'archetype'.
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.1970f4ae4...@news.odyssey.net>...
> It depends on which version of the story you read. In some texts
> Tolkien presented Turin as very much a victim of circumstance. In
> others he was largely responsible for his own problems. I always
> preferred 'Turin the tragic hero' to 'Turin the anti-hero', but both
> variants are certainly 'intriguing'. The published Silm leans more
> towards 'anti-hero', but contains elements of both.
however tragic a fate may be? For me, it's just about doing what one
must, though sometimes other rules pop up as well (e.g. no naive faith in
the enemy - cf. Turin and Glaurung, moral restraint etc.) Turin the anti-
hero has Free Will and is responsible for his actions whether good or
bad.
For instance, do you think Frodo is a 'tragic hero' stereotype?
> That said... Tolkien had Turin showing up to fight Morgoth for the
> final battle in various texts spanning a period of more than thirty
> years. To me that would indicate that Tolkien certainly did not view
> Turin as 'totally at fault' or 'beyond redemption'.
Well, nobody is (w.t.e. of Incarnate Evil (TM)). It was rather nice of
Tolkien to drop the 'fiery bath' part of redemption in later writings. I
am happy that we would (most probably) have been given no details of the
millennia of waiting in the Halls (or a looong stay with Eru, in other
versions).
Archie
--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."
Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_
Chocoholic
"Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7xKNa.175055$Xl.28...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
The whole story of the Rings of Power is a "D'ooh!" event. :) He thinks he's
so clever getting them under his control by stealth, and then it turns out
the Elves are AWARE of him. "D'ooh! They can 'see' me!?" So he gets mad and
demands they hand over the Rings, what with all the power he invested in
them and can't get back they are now a major liability. And it snowballs
from there.
Graham Lockwood
>> Sauron does have a heavy "D'oh!" factor, doesn't he?
>
> so clever getting them under his control by stealth, and then it turns out
> the Elves are AWARE of him. "D'ooh! They can 'see' me!?" So he gets mad and
> demands they hand over the Rings, what with all the power he invested in
> them and can't get back they are now a major liability. And it snowballs
> from there.
And then there's the "D'oh" factor with regards to Celebrimbor and the other
Gwaith-i-Mirdain. They make all these pretty Rings of Power that are going
to Save Elfdom On Earth only to find out that it was all a giant plot by the
New Dark Lord! D'oh!
Bill O'Meally
"Chocoholic" <Choco...@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:vglq9sd...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:7xKNa.175055$Xl.28...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Sauron does have a heavy "D'oh!" factor, doesn't he?
> >
> > --
> > Bill
>
> The whole story of the Rings of Power is a "D'ooh!" event. :) He
thinks he's
> so clever getting them under his control by stealth, and then it turns
out
> the Elves are AWARE of him. "D'ooh! They can 'see' me!?" So he gets
mad and
> demands they hand over the Rings, what with all the power he invested
in
> them and can't get back they are now a major liability. And it
snowballs
> from there.
'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has
fulfilled his quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of
Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there
rose a huge shape of shadow, inpenetrable, bald headed and beer-bellied.
Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a
vast threatening hand, holding what appeared to their eyes a phial with
the word "Duff" inscribed upon it. And even as it leaned over them, from
its mouth a deafening "D'oooohhh!!" blared forth. And as it did so, a
great wind took it, and it was blown away, and passed; and then a hush
fell.
Chocoholic
Yay! This must be preserved somewhere!
Bill O'Meally
"Chocoholic" <Choco...@Cocoa.org> wrote in message
news:vgue7tb...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Bill O'Meally" <OMea...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:E%MOa.190421$Xl.31...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > 'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'The Ring-bearer has
> > fulfilled his quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of
> > Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud,
there
> > rose a huge shape of shadow, inpenetrable, bald headed and
beer-bellied.
> > Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a
> > vast threatening hand, holding what appeared to their eyes a phial
with
> > the word "Duff" inscribed upon it. And even as it leaned over them,
from
> > its mouth a deafening "D'oooohhh!!" blared forth. And as it did so,
a
> > great wind took it, and it was blown away, and passed; and then a
hush
> > fell.
> > --
> > Bill
> >
>
> Yay! This must be preserved somewhere!
<bows>
Its nice to be appreciated. Google will do the rest.:-)