[RFD] UDP proposal: BIGPOND/TELSTRA (Telstra Corporation Limited): A Request for Remedial Action

David Ritz

unread,

Mar 6, 2003, 3:26:57 AM3/6/03

to

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===========================================================================

This Request For Discussion comes after much consideration and
significant effort on my part and the part of others to avoid this
action. Unfortunately, I feel the options have been exhausted. As
always, it is my hope that the reasons for remedial action may be
adequately addressed, in order to prevent any UDP action.

Telstra has an abysmal history with respect to ignoring long term
net-abuse issues. Trying to get any response from them is next to
impossible. In the past five years, I've only managed to elicit a
response from them on one issue. At that time, I was attempting
to de-peer Matt Middleton's rouge spam feed, in October, 1998.
Other than that, the best I've been able to manage are auto-acks.

Even when their nntp servers are being hijacked, flooding Usenet
with malicious rogue cancels and supersedes messages, let alone
thousands spammed posts, reports are met with deafening silence.

This unresponsiveness is mirrored by their Bigpond subsidiary.
Here, I can see their resident spammers being reassigned to
different IPs, but they continue their operations unimpeded. All
previous attempts at opening channels of communication have
apparently fallen on deaf ears, including stern warnings that
their failure to act against ongoing abuse issues would lead
directly to this opening of formal Usenet Death Penalty
discussions.

As I prepared this RFD, I pulled all of the Cancelled Spam
Statistics relating to Telstra (and more specifically, Bigpond).
From 03 Apr 1998 through 04 March 2003, all appearances of any
'Top Spam Sources by Injection Site', 'Top Spam Sources by
Upstream Site', 'Top Spam Sources by Posting-Host' and 'Top Spam
Sources by Path Tail' showing Telstra or Bigpond averaged 1,230
spam cancels directed against these posts.

If we assume that the average number of articles shown in the
Ultra Hippo statistics is close to being correct, 2,629 articles
were posted to news-server.bigpond.net.au on a daily basis, from
21 Mar 2002, through 22 Mar 2003. Over approximately the same
time spam, a daily average of 1,578 cyberspam cancels are being
issued against this output. This would indicate that over that
past year 60% of the articles posted to news-server.bigpond.net.au
are spam.

==========================================================================

=======================================================================
Cancelled Spam Statistics courtesy of Andrew Gierth
(see news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins)

==========================================================================

While the Ultra Hippo statistics shown indicate they are _only_
dropping 41% of this feed, that such a small site, in terms of
overall volume, has averaged the 18th highest source of spam over
this period, is a clear indication that little or nothing is being
done to stem this never ending pink tide.

When you look at the KByte counts, shown in the Ultra Hippo
statistics, you'll note that the bulk of the spam coming from
Bigpond consists of binary posts, with 69,644 KB dropped daily.
Of these, a significant and unacceptably high number of binaries
are being posted to text only newsgroups.

=========================================================================
Top 100 Sites identified by Ultra/Spam Hippo Despam
Ultra Hippo - Top 100 Spam News Sites
See news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins and <http://www.spamhippo.com>

Date n/100 Source Total spam %spam KBytes
=========================================================================
2002.03.21 44 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1598 443 28 47396
2002.03.22 62 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1253 235 19 34571
2002.03.23 20 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1685 654 39 70391
2002.03.24 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1622 658 41 34120
2002.03.25 22 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1884 854 45 36645
2002.03.26 28 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1779 515 29 43592
2002.03.27 24 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1817 852 47 67726
2002.03.28 29 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1662 599 36 47753
2002.03.30 39 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1313 432 33 49785
2002.03.31 86 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1194 107 9 7107
2002.04.01 39 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1585 487 31 17559
2002.04.02 41 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1464 525 36 34593
2002.04.03 49 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1648 336 20 37082
2002.04.04 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2190 975 45 86567
2002.04.05 32 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1528 540 35 36950
2002.04.06 53 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1338 370 28 31755
2002.04.07 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2203 1454 66 102011
2002.04.08 35 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1384 457 33 37386
2002.04.09 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2677 1852 69 118893
2002.04.10 40 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1470 410 28 36714
2002.04.11 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2501 1480 59 81368
2002.04.12 40 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1547 443 29 34422
2002.04.13 50 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1326 287 22 21121
2002.04.14 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2556 1505 59 100860
2002.04.15 50 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1364 263 19 30299
2002.04.16 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2547 1494 59 59094
2002.04.17 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1811 566 31 36773
2002.04.18 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2452 1362 56 77944
2002.04.19 62 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1252 231 18 26047
2002.04.20 47 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1655 282 17 25007
2002.04.21 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2067 1336 65 97134
2002.04.22 62 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1441 227 16 23585
2002.04.23 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3010 1446 48 73164
2002.04.24 25 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2162 857 40 69012
2002.04.25 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2443 1484 61 85057
2002.04.26 24 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2066 690 33 37367
2002.04.27 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2495 1281 51 74182
2002.04.28 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2168 1075 50 65087
2002.04.29 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2006 851 42 43376
2002.04.30 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1872 655 35 33110
2002.05.01 29 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1679 313 19 25015
2002.05.02 52 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1869 215 12 6611
2002.05.03 26 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1800 522 29 19328
2002.05.04 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1942 703 36 40736
2002.05.05 26 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2249 378 17 29373
2002.05.06 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4084 2796 68 35482
2002.05.07 22 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2421 593 24 31690
2002.05.08 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2691 867 32 66639
2002.05.09 35 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1807 329 18 27090
2002.05.10 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3499 970 28 74749
2002.05.11 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3169 685 22 79515
2002.05.12 25 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2535 773 30 29151
2002.05.13 27 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2080 572 28 27669
2002.05.14 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2586 971 38 29474
2002.05.15 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2405 1091 45 45708
2002.05.16 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2451 887 36 76320
2002.05.17 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2812 1397 50 44004
2002.05.18 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3318 1284 39 67095
2002.05.19 30 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2900 614 21 53305
2002.05.20 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4271 1407 33 57746
2002.05.21 88 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1787 129 7 9673
2002.05.22 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4446 3020 68 67193
2002.05.23 40 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1991 426 21 11692
2002.05.24 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4431 3004 68 23514
2002.05.25 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 5203 2641 51 63730
2002.05.26 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2706 1021 38 32611
2002.05.27 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3323 851 26 34897
2002.05.28 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3329 1405 42 59432
2002.05.29 23 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2149 883 41 36203
2002.05.30 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2881 1517 53 59427
2002.05.31 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3317 1542 46 38089
2002.06.01 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3352 1428 43 30119
2002.06.02 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2530 1195 47 59089
2002.06.03 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3076 1204 39 48171
2002.06.04 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4022 1842 46 93745
2002.06.05 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3032 1387 46 108632
2002.06.06 20 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2638 1042 39 43399
2002.06.07 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 5081 2023 40 138012
2002.06.08 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2913 1194 41 80905
2002.06.09 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3092 1685 54 80848
2002.06.10 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2914 1420 49 98405
2002.06.11 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3148 1201 38 137386
2002.06.12 25 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3136 914 29 62118
2002.06.13 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3981 1464 37 71202
2002.06.14 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3602 1256 35 90289
2002.06.15 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3434 1332 39 83297
2002.06.16 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2946 1556 53 124982
2002.06.17 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3631 1419 39 58532
2002.06.18 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4185 1683 40 134861
2002.06.19 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3236 1434 44 57467
2002.06.20 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3557 2511 71 209056
2002.06.21 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4156 2984 72 275221
2002.06.22 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4136 2104 51 196814
2002.06.23 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2950 1613 55 181700
2002.06.24 20 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2795 1255 45 53747
2002.06.25 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3088 1700 55 207899
2002.06.26 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2997 1574 53 96029
2002.06.27 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3190 1033 32 62887
2002.06.28 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3484 1642 47 75515
2002.06.29 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3035 1371 45 78696
2002.06.30 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2503 1205 48 53027
2002.07.01 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2795 1380 49 143229
2002.07.02 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3127 1671 53 83837
2002.07.03 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2776 1084 39 32588
2002.07.04 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4874 1212 25 45070
2002.07.05 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4110 1567 38 88659
2002.07.06 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2942 742 25 73882
2002.07.07 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3922 1327 34 64205
2002.07.08 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2863 1165 41 69604
2002.07.09 25 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1683 510 30 45902
2002.07.10 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3243 1550 48 106838
2002.07.11 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2639 1165 44 79718
2002.07.12 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3348 1851 55 117589
2002.07.13 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2112 868 41 62844
2002.07.14 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2550 1339 53 69718
2002.07.15 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2172 891 41 38351
2002.07.16 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3438 1827 53 134828
2002.07.17 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3409 1529 45 84468
2002.07.18 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4060 1633 40 71009
2002.07.19 26 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2555 615 24 39616
2002.07.20 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2524 999 40 49142
2002.07.21 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2784 1372 49 75149
2002.07.22 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2939 1612 55 112879
2002.07.23 23 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2337 907 39 173517
2002.07.24 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2925 1437 49 87152
2002.07.25 38 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2855 456 16 36381
2002.07.26 20 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3290 1244 38 76192
2002.07.27 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3988 1880 47 132420
2002.07.28 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3814 2176 57 108818
2002.07.29 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3270 1649 50 146213
2002.07.30 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2816 1459 52 76862
2002.07.31 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2685 1364 51 94555
2002.08.01 30 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2346 666 28 50096
2002.08.02 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2912 1359 47 28437
2002.08.03 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3470 2192 63 111919
2002.08.04 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2952 1186 40 68992
2002.08.05 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2801 1547 55 66844
2002.08.06 45 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1883 275 15 38613
2002.08.07 93 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2098 85 4 2159
2002.08.08 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3600 2109 59 119776
2002.08.09 28 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2060 511 25 3038
2002.08.10 38 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2848 281 10 16970
2002.08.11 75 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2942 116 4 12326
2002.08.12 48 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2127 256 12 530
2002.08.13 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2963 856 29 4871
2002.08.14 33 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2004 413 21 27975
2002.08.15 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2230 719 32 39602
2002.08.16 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2638 1264 48 60057
2002.08.17 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1882 789 42 41726
2002.08.18 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2533 1425 56 78938
2002.08.19 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2820 1253 44 70147
2002.08.20 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2889 1543 53 72988
2002.08.21 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3014 1830 61 105635
2002.08.22 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3676 1622 44 119121
2002.08.23 26 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2148 463 22 26997
2002.08.24 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3005 1687 56 96819
2002.08.25 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2611 1340 51 69521
2002.08.26 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2032 751 37 44722
2002.08.27 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2072 951 46 59965
2002.08.28 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2801 1439 51 84547
2002.08.29 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1993 944 47 57198
2002.08.30 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2327 1195 51 90765
2002.08.31 93 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1524 69 5 3707
2002.09.02 60 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1572 207 13 23604
2002.09.03 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2263 414 18 10130
2002.09.04 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2717 895 33 11693
2002.09.05 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2414 595 25 33087
2002.09.06 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3022 1007 33 44742
2002.09.07 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3466 1896 55 106881
2002.09.08 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3574 1354 38 64167
2002.09.09 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3029 1166 38 95282
2002.09.10 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3370 2377 71 117143
2002.09.11 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3383 1689 50 91805
2002.09.12 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2327 756 32 30156
2002.09.13 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2395 1044 44 43007
2002.09.14 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2650 1337 50 123138
2002.09.15 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2306 1281 56 51418
2002.09.16 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2205 1080 49 49882
2002.09.17 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2295 1208 53 56061
2002.09.18 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2729 1148 42 52198
2002.09.19 22 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2007 817 41 49282
2002.09.20 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2839 1869 66 93790
2002.09.21 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2665 1342 50 69850
2002.09.22 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2162 1355 63 66467
2002.09.23 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3571 1302 36 88548
2002.09.24 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2211 795 36 54855
2002.09.25 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2779 1800 65 92024
2002.09.26 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2881 1677 58 118177
2002.09.27 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1905 705 37 41929
2002.09.28 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3202 1852 58 127150
2002.09.29 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3410 2072 61 122775
2002.09.30 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3240 694 21 53993
2002.10.01 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2365 488 21 34406
2002.10.02 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2932 1378 47 102358
2002.10.04 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2892 1372 47 159062
2002.10.05 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3178 1603 50 103849
2002.10.06 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3520 1783 51 125999
2002.10.07 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3818 1558 41 108278
2002.10.08 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 8011 1269 16 99686
2002.10.09 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 6008 1944 32 139370
2002.10.10 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2437 724 30 46441
2002.10.11 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2948 1710 58 128341
2002.10.12 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3343 1809 54 137664
2002.10.13 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2767 1239 45 78670
2002.10.14 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2639 1179 45 56734
2002.10.15 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3172 1944 61 128630
2002.10.16 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3906 2449 63 743920
2002.10.17 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3812 2338 61 546303
2002.10.18 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2545 1133 45 317287
2002.10.19 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2350 606 26 234302
2002.10.20 23 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2523 740 29 49549
2002.10.21 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2369 680 29 47986
2002.10.22 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3188 1006 32 45226
2002.10.23 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2480 527 21 54210
2002.10.24 37 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2093 354 17 131780
2002.10.25 76 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1733 140 8 15350
2002.10.26 41 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1667 296 18 40180
2002.10.27 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3696 1045 28 60426
2002.10.28 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2516 763 30 37676
2002.10.29 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2606 867 33 63842
2002.10.30 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2592 608 23 43884
2002.10.31 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2500 550 22 43639
2002.11.01 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2527 653 26 50240
2002.11.02 33 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4093 333 8 15064
2002.11.03 24 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2278 536 24 21080
2002.11.04 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2471 826 33 56922
2002.11.05 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2972 1161 39 87934
2002.11.06 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2520 673 27 38481
2002.11.07 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2468 720 29 51773
2002.11.08 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2646 785 30 50553
2002.11.09 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3079 1264 41 110307
2002.11.10 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2370 686 29 34192
2002.11.11 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2797 1039 37 75494
2002.11.12 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3037 1293 43 97478
2002.11.13 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2549 725 28 42929
2002.11.14 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2479 790 32 56873
2002.11.15 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2135 941 44 76122
2002.11.16 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2600 710 27 41074
2002.11.17 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2265 928 41 67430
2002.11.18 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2688 742 28 74519
2002.11.19 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2119 620 29 37421
2002.11.20 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2375 669 28 41599
2002.11.21 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2044 589 29 36249
2002.11.22 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2762 1220 44 63222
2002.11.23 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2624 1233 47 92536
2002.11.24 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2158 559 26 34816
2002.11.25 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2449 929 38 57528
2002.11.26 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2171 680 31 41005
2002.11.27 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2788 977 35 46576
2002.11.28 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3282 1395 43 76222
2002.11.29 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2885 783 27 47970
2002.11.30 27 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2483 379 15 31781
2002.12.01 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2081 388 19 43195
2002.12.02 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2924 1316 45 203581
2002.12.03 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2483 943 38 110259
2002.12.04 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2076 783 38 35584
2002.12.05 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2485 795 32 30457
2002.12.06 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3395 2229 66 117989
2002.12.07 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2632 1190 45 57829
2002.12.08 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1862 717 39 30703
2002.12.09 23 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2030 350 17 12777
2002.12.10 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2029 488 24 39537
2002.12.11 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2376 718 30 63771
2002.12.12 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2192 1019 46 63008
2002.12.13 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2271 1167 51 91769
2002.12.14 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2411 1196 50 82503
2002.12.15 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2060 824 40 48528
2002.12.16 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2453 1173 48 99306
2002.12.17 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3454 1734 50 93675
2002.12.18 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2862 1143 40 73208
2002.12.19 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2734 1379 50 101011
2002.12.20 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3095 2068 67 101422
2002.12.21 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2304 1498 65 83610
2002.12.22 5 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2236 1419 63 91673
2002.12.23 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2617 1809 69 126055
2002.12.24 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1786 1175 66 70648
2002.12.25 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2045 1624 79 115977
2002.12.26 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2056 1196 58 67279
2002.12.27 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2617 1606 61 115198
2002.12.28 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2881 1890 66 133321
2002.12.29 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2561 1779 69 76577
2002.12.30 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2396 1192 50 63975
2002.12.31 10 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2353 1069 45 63678
2003.01.01 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2677 1446 54 77122
2003.01.02 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2302 739 32 61292
2003.01.03 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1842 578 31 43432
2003.01.04 35 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2084 276 13 34240
2003.01.05 17 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2097 549 26 23272
2003.01.06 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2434 697 29 32473
2003.01.07 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2790 751 27 44743
2003.01.08 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1978 487 25 30847
2003.01.09 60 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1537 158 10 16263
2003.01.10 28 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1851 421 23 46437
2003.01.11 91 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1483 80 5 5027
2003.01.12 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2394 1259 53 88205
2003.01.13 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2857 1244 44 83049
2003.01.14 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2518 1684 67 78149
2003.01.15 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2269 711 31 39738
2003.01.16 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2251 766 34 40256
2003.01.17 42 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1821 294 16 43929
2003.01.18 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2525 924 37 82074
2003.01.19 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2294 797 35 80142
2003.01.20 14 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2386 802 34 54362
2003.01.21 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2756 1487 54 108005
2003.01.22 19 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2191 837 38 53364
2003.01.23 22 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2349 597 25 48332
2003.01.24 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2257 1257 56 68071
2003.01.25 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2622 1549 59 99047
2003.01.26 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3058 1506 49 105867
2003.01.27 8 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2583 1045 40 76266
2003.01.28 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2294 717 31 34193
2003.01.29 49 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1850 211 11 7608
2003.01.30 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2695 1024 38 64833
2003.01.31 32 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1797 366 20 14716
2003.02.01 15 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2348 1180 50 68740
2003.02.02 32 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1759 410 23 28063
2003.02.03 27 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1642 391 24 16765
2003.02.04 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1975 511 26 21073
2003.02.05 9 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2067 788 38 27882
2003.02.06 25 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1868 426 23 15262
2003.02.07 38 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1743 299 17 14695
2003.02.08 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2147 516 24 51082
2003.02.09 24 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2072 520 25 37457
2003.02.10 36 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1687 272 16 13050
2003.02.11 48 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2223 207 9 9512
2003.02.12 18 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2532 750 30 41941
2003.02.13 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3654 1800 49 125962
2003.02.14 16 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2890 835 29 52629
2003.02.15 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2694 781 29 41606
2003.02.16 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2908 717 25 33832
2003.02.17 6 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1736 1736 100 101737
2003.02.18 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 5257 1585 30 91467
2003.02.19 30 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3147 298 9 10514
2003.02.20 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2872 1362 47 85534
2003.02.21 1 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4251 3115 73 81929
2003.02.22 4 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4794 3413 71 113361
2003.02.23 3 news-server.bigpond.net.au 3867 2310 60 127328
2003.02.24 11 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1861 765 41 47280
2003.02.25 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1564 572 37 20632
2003.02.26 21 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1611 383 24 30193
2003.02.27 89 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1116 98 9 3544
2003.02.28 12 news-server.bigpond.net.au 570 570 100 20169
2003.03.01 32 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1513 285 19 12832
2003.03.02 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1778 696 39 25482
2003.03.03 2 news-server.bigpond.net.au 4195 3013 72 167201
2003.03.04 13 news-server.bigpond.net.au 1469 542 37 36783
=========================================================================
TOTAL 909770 370620 41 24096718
=========================================================================
AVERAGE 18 2629 1071 41 69644
=========================================================================

==========================================================================

As a specific area of concern, Bigpond's *.qld.bigpond.net.au
IPs appear most consistently in the NNPH and at the highest
volume of spam. While I'll save some space (and the reader's
patience), *.qld.bigpond.net.au has appeared in the Cancelled
Spam Statistics 291 times, since 28 Mar 2002. During this period
of time, 321,211 spam cancels have been directed against articles
originating from these addresses, averaging 1,104 per appearance.

Another area of concern is the *.sa.bigpond.net.au IP address.
These have appeared in the NNPH stats a total of 210 times,
averaging 454 cancelled articles per appearance.

One possible reason that Bigpond/Telstra appears to be making no
headway, is that as soon as one of their spammers disappears from
one IP address, they immediately turn up at another.

==========================================================================

See <http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20030603051150.html>
for a detailed report, including numbered hyperlinks to the articles.

DSRS posting research results

Please note, this search was generated at 2003/03/06 05:11:50 GMT
and the articles presented may no longer be available. You may
click on any article reference (the first hyperlink in each line)
and retrieve the referenced article without a DSRS login, however
you will need a DSRS login to perform any other searches.

Please visit http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net for details!

Search: exact NNTP-Posting-Host: for "203.45.178.119" from
2003/03/03 00:00:00 to 2003/03/03 23:59:59 CST

1: 2381 1.0000 xcf...@tbm.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . New Teen Boy Mo Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:
2: 55234 1.0000 xcf...@tbm.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . New Teen Boy Mo Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:
3: 94252 2.4495 tdy...@bma.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . B M A - Cute Tue, 04 Mar 2003 02:
<...>
536: 30836 2.4495 203.45.178.119
537: 2154 1.0000 203.45.178.119
538: 50930 2.4495 203.45.178.119
TOTALS ------- -------
538: 25672636 958.3521

* The second number in each line is the number of bytes for the
article. The third is the Breidbart Index, defined as the square
root of the number of groups posted to.

==========================================================================

See <http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20030603051726.html>
for a detailed report, including numbered hyperlinks to the articles.

DSRS posting research results

Please note, this search was generated at 2003/03/06 05:17:26 GMT
and the articles presented may no longer be available. You may
click on any article reference (the first hyperlink in each line)
and retrieve the referenced article without a DSRS login, however
you will need a DSRS login to perform any other searches.

Search: exact NNTP-Posting-Host: for "203.45.178.119" from
2003/03/04 00:00:00 to 2003/03/04 23:59:59 CST

1: 87899 2.4495 onl...@tbm.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . MY TRUE EXPERI Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:
2: 60220 2.4495 onl...@tbm.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . MY TRUE EXPERI Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:
3: 70295 2.4495 lkn...@tbm.com 203.45.178.119
alt.binaries.picture . MY TRUE EXPERI Tue, 04 Mar 2003 21:
<...>
613: 22533 2.4495 203.45.178.119
614: 50971 2.4495 203.45.178.119
615: 46328 1.0000 203.45.178.119
TOTALS ------- -------
615: 26019348 1103.4781

==========================================================================

See <http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20030603050901.html>
for a detailed report, including numbered hyperlinks to the articles.

DSRS posting research results

Please note, this search was generated at 2003/03/06 05:09:01 GMT
and the articles presented may no longer be available. You may
click on any article reference (the first hyperlink in each line)
and retrieve the referenced article without a DSRS login, however
you will need a DSRS login to perform any other searches.

Search: exact NNTP-Posting-Host: for "203.45.178.13" from
2003/03/05 00:00:00 to 2003/03/05 23:09:01 CST

1: 50815 2.4495 mpn...@bma.com 203.45.178.13
alt.binaries.picture >> New Australian Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:
2: 56955 2.4495 pcn...@bma.com 203.45.178.13
alt.penthouse.sex.pi >> New Australian Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:
3: 53501 2.4495 pcn...@bma.com 203.45.178.13
alt.penthouse.sex.pi >> New Australian Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:
<...>
592: 46650 2.4495 203.45.178.13
593: 63612 2.4495 203.45.178.13
594: 49662 2.4495 203.45.178.13
TOTALS ------- -------
594: 23453042 1107.1195

==========================================================================

Guessing whether accounts are being cancelled and the spammers are
signing right back up, or Bigpond is simply reassigning them IPs,
would be purely conjecture on my part. Regardless, it is time for
this to stop.

==========================================================================
News Peers
==========================================================================

Unfortunately, the Maxwell Path analysis tool
<http://tfeed.maxwell.syr.edu/tfeed/usepaths.html> is down.
Fortunately, I have plenty of samples available locally.

Here's a Path analysis is taken from 1,179 sets of spam headers
provided to Bigpond and Telstra on 03 Mar 2003.

==========================================================================
Proposal
==========================================================================

Proposed: a two phase Usenet Death Penalty of telstra.net

1) a full passive UDP; shunning or Path aliasing
"news-server.bigpond.net.au" and "newsfeeds.bigpond.com".

2) a full active UDP; cancelling all Usenet posts showing
a bigpond.net.au or bigpond.com origin.

This proposed UDP action is a boycott and will in no way impinge
upon any service for which the users of news-server.bigpond.net.au
are paying. These users will be able to continue posting and
reading news, just as they are. The only effect would be on where
articles posted to news-server.bigpond.net.au appear, beyond
TELSTRA.NET's borders.

Please see:

"Usenet Death Penalty FAQ"
<http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/udp.html>

"Spam Glossary" <http://www.rahul.net/falk/glossary.html#udp>

"Net Abuse FAQ"
<http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html#3.19>.

Should an UDP be called, the standard five business day notice
will be provided, so that the UDP target can take whatever
necessary action to alleviate the need for moving to the
enforcement stage of the called UDP.

As with any announced UDP action, all resources will be made
available to the target ISP, in an attempt to limit the necessity
for such drastic steps being taken. It is truly unfortunate that
it has come to this action of last resort.

Respectfully submitted, 06 March 2003.

- --
David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org>
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not
send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my
suespammers.org address.

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Kathy Morgan

unread,

Mar 11, 2003, 8:20:15 PM3/11/03

to

David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org> wrote:

> Proposed: a two phase Usenet Death Penalty of telstra.net
>
> 1) a full passive UDP; shunning or Path aliasing
> "news-server.bigpond.net.au" and "newsfeeds.bigpond.com".
>
> 2) a full active UDP; cancelling all Usenet posts showing
> a bigpond.net.au or bigpond.com origin.

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion--it just seems very unusual.
Are there no users on the affected servers upset by the possible UDP?
(I'm in favor of a UDP when other efforts to deal with spam have failed,
I'm just surprised by the lack of reaction from Bigpond users.)

--
Kathy
visit news:news.groups.reviews to read reviews of other newsgroups
help for new users of newsgroups at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>
OE-quotefix can fix OE: <http://jump.to/oe-quotefix>

Frank Slootweg

unread,

Mar 12, 2003, 5:21:32 AM3/12/03

to

Kathy Morgan <kmo...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org> wrote:
>
>> Proposed: a two phase Usenet Death Penalty of telstra.net
>>
>> 1) a full passive UDP; shunning or Path aliasing
>> "news-server.bigpond.net.au" and "newsfeeds.bigpond.com".
>>
>> 2) a full active UDP; cancelling all Usenet posts showing
>> a bigpond.net.au or bigpond.com origin.
>
> I'm surprised by the lack of discussion--it just seems very unusual.
> Are there no users on the affected servers upset by the possible UDP?
> (I'm in favor of a UDP when other efforts to deal with spam have failed,
> I'm just surprised by the lack of reaction from Bigpond users.)

I had reposted the original article to a Australia-related group I
happen to subscribe to, rec.travel.australia+nz, but there was little to
no response. See <news:b47f9t$8s0$1...@support.neth.hp.com> if you are
interested (Date: 6 Mar 2003 12:35:09 GMT, Subject: [OT] [RFD] UDP
proposal: BIGPOND/TELSTRA (Telstra Corporation Limited) A Request for
Remedial Action).

Very strange, but perhaps it is as David says: people can't be
bothered because they do not believe Telstra will take this/them
seriously.

Paul Johnson

unread,

Mar 12, 2003, 7:27:46 AM3/12/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Wed, 12 Mar 2003 01:20:15 +0000 (UTC), Kathy Morgan <kmo...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

>I'm surprised by the lack of discussion--it just seems very unusual.
>Are there no users on the affected servers upset by the possible UDP?

I believe the opposite may be true: Bigpond/Telstra is such a huge
nuisance that it may be accepted fact and everybody's silently waiting
for the UDP. At least from the net-abuse I see, Bigpond and Telstra
puts out roughly the same amount as the entire country of China.

- --
Paul Johnson

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Dr Ivan D. Reid

unread,

Mar 12, 2003, 2:09:58 PM3/12/03

to

On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:34:17 +0000 (UTC), David <mail...@telstra.abuse.com>
wrote in <BwAba.22186$Tv4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>:

> Although there recently was a press article about Tesltra's
> response to the UDP it is unlikely a lot will happen. Simply
> because Telsra is so big and so powerful it has no corporate pride
> in anything other than the size of its half-yearly profits.

Was there? Where? As a concerned Telstra shareholder and
accredited spam-fighter, I passed the original UDP proposal along to the
business editor of the SMH, but never received any acknowledgement. It's
not my habit to carefully peruse the business section of www.smh (just
checking my shares portfolio these days brings enough tears to my eyes)
so if they printed anything I certainly missed it.

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Eng., Brunel Uni. Ivan...@brunel.ac.uk
WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Kathy Morgan

unread,

Mar 12, 2003, 3:38:49 PM3/12/03

to

David <mail...@telstra.abuse.com> wrote:

> It would not be surprising to me that Telstra, being the near
> monopoly providor of wholesale data services, simply didn't care
> too much about a UDP. (snip)
>
> Broadband clients are locked into minimum term contracts and
> simply saying "I am not happy. Goodbye" isn't possible for many
> telstra/bigpond users no matter how unhappy they are. Telstra is
> Australias largest supplier of telecomms and the near monopoly
> provider of "last mile" copper. Many bigpond clients have
> consolidated their wired telephone, mobile telephone and internet
> into one account, so refusing to pay places you are at risk of
> having your telephone account frozen and then being automatically
> listed as a bad credit risk on numerous credit reporting services. (snip)

What an appalling situation for the subscribers! You have my sympathies.

Thanks to you and the others who responded. I was beginning to wonder
if anyone had seen the UDP proposal; I've just never seen so little
reaction to one. Usually there are at least several non-spamming
customers of the abusing provider who come in shouting and unhappy about
the proposed action, so I was really surprised this time at seeing no
followups at all.

David Ritz

unread,

Mar 13, 2003, 1:54:04 AM3/13/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3TRba.23745$Tv4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
David <mail...@telstra.abuse.com> wrote:

David> Here is the link - I saw it in another ng. It is still alive
David> - just checked.

David> <http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/10/1047144896913.html>

There was also this one. See <http://tinyurl.com/7drl>.
(<http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6105824%5E15343%5E%5
Enbv%5E15306%2D15318,00.html>)

An earlier article can be fond at <http://tinyurl.com/76bg>.
(<http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,6102579%5E15306%5E%5
Enbv%5E,00.html>)

While there was not much public discussion regarding this RFD,
there was certainly a response. I've also been keeping a fairly
close eye on this, as it's developed. Quoting from my reply to
Stuart Gray, Telstra's Public Affairs Manager for Broadband &
Online Services, dated Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:38:49 -0600:

<quote>
The Ultra Hippo stats for 2003.03.08 indicate that 52% of the
articles they received from news-server.bigpond.net.au were
dropped as spam.

> From: spam...@spamhippo.com (Spam Hippo)
> Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins
> Subject: Top 100 Sites identified by Ultra/Spam Hippo Despam Mar 08, 03
> Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.usenet
> Date: 9 Mar 2003 00:05:31 -0800
> Message-ID: <b4eskb$lq7$1...@news.newsguy.com>
<...>
> Ultra Hippo - Top 100 Spam News Sites - 3/8/2003
> These listings are hyperlinked for spam detail at http://www.spamhippo.com
> Total Spam %Spam KBytes
<...>
> 7 news-server.bigpond.net.au 2798 1441 52 78047

Please see
<http://www.newsadmin.com/cgi-bin/top100stat?s+7+030309> for
sources.

An even higher number of post were cancelled under cyberspam
protocols, within approximately the same time frame.

> From: Andrew Gierth <and...@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins
> Subject: Cancelled Spam Statistics for 08 Mar 2003
> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:22:28 -0600
> Message-ID: <20030309092228$7b...@blackhole.riddles.org.uk>
<...>
> Top Spam Sources by Path Tail: (total 43209)
<...>
> 2672 news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!*

Using a direct count, 4,255 articles showing this Path pair were
received at the DSRS monitoring site
<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/dsrs/>, between 2003.03.08 00:00:00 and
2003.03.08 23:59:59 CST (-0600). Of these, 3,042 or 71.5% were
cancelled under cyberspam protocols, as EMP spam with BI>=20/45
days. Please see
<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20030903175758.html>
(cancelled articles) and
<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20030903175746.html>
(cancels).

Between 2003.03.09 00:00:00 and 2003.03.09 23:59:59 -0600, 5,653
articles containing the Path stamp "news-server.bigpond.net.au"
were received at the DSRS monitoring site. Within the identical
time period, 4,394 cyberspam cancels against these posts were
received. 77.7% of all traffic originating from this site was
subject to cyberspam cancels, within this twenty four hour period.
Please see
<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20031003161447.html>.

These are hardly isolated instances. Things have been this way
for most of the past year. I'm truly sorry that it took a formal
UDP proposal to begin to get this addressed. It seems that it was
clearly required.
</quote>

After those two disasterous days, things appear to be turning
around. 1,556 articles were received from
news-server.bigpond.net.au at DSRS on 2003.03.10 (-0600). Of
these, only 204 or 13.1% were subject to cyberspam cancels. It
looks as though no articles originating from this source have been
cancelled under cyberspam protocols since that time.

- --
David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org>

"This isn't a win/lose kind of thing. If there's a UDP, we all lose.
If the abuse stops, we all win." - Jeremy Nixon

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Message has been deleted

Kathy Morgan

unread,

Mar 13, 2003, 11:08:56 AM3/13/03

to

Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> "David Ritz" <dr...@suespammers.org> wrote in message
> news:dritz-087231....@news.supernews.com...

> > After those two disasterous days, things appear to be turning
> > around. 1,556 articles were received from
> > news-server.bigpond.net.au at DSRS on 2003.03.10 (-0600). Of
> > these, only 204 or 13.1% were subject to cyberspam cancels. It
> > looks as though no articles originating from this source have been
> > cancelled under cyberspam protocols since that time.

That's good news. We all win if they clean up their act without an
actual UDP.

> So why don't you issue a UDP cancelletion notice?

There hasn't been any UDP yet. There was an RFD for UDP.

--
Kathy

David Ritz

unread,

Mar 13, 2003, 2:24:42 PM3/13/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <1frqzqq.1n8nifd1qb9t8gN%kmo...@spamcop.net>,
Kathy Morgan <kmo...@spamcop.net> wrote:

KM> "David Ritz" <dr...@suespammers.org> wrote in message
KM> news:dritz-087231....@news.supernews.com...

>> After those two disasterous days, things appear to be turning
>> around. 1,556 articles were received from
>> news-server.bigpond.net.au at DSRS on 2003.03.10 (-0600). Of
>> these, only 204 or 13.1% were subject to cyberspam cancels. It
>> looks as though no articles originating from this source have been
>> cancelled under cyberspam protocols since that time.

KM> That's good news. We all win if they clean up their act without
KM> an actual UDP.

There may actually be a passive UDP in effect, although it doesn't
appear as though it is being enforced from outside of Telstra.
Virtually nothing has propagated from news-server.bigpond.net.au
in the past few days.

See:

20030310:<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20031303185555.html>
20030311:<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20031303181223.html>
20030312:<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20031303181337.html>
20030313:<http://dsrs.nntp.sol.net/reports/custom.20031303181346.html>

With only twelve (12) articles propagating from bigpond.net.au
since 11-Mar-2003 05:45:06 GMT, and at least two of those coming
via moderator approvals (email), it should be no surprise that
there's no spam to be found from this source.

Normally, I'd expect to see around 1000 legitimate posts daily
coming from this server. I suspect that Telstra may be blocking
the outbound feed from news-server.bigpond.net.au, until such time
as they feel the situation has been brought under control.

<aside>
The precedent for such action was set by Ian Hagon of
blueyonder.co.uk, in response to a called UDP against that
provider in May 2002. See
<news:lmwC8.27413$Li1.19...@news-text.cableinet.net>
(<http://howardk.freenix.org/msgid.cgi?ID=102106412900>).
</aside>

Also see <news:b4psre$hb5$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>
(<http://howardk.freenix.org/msgid.cgi?ID=104758013000>) and
subsequent follow ups <http://tinyurl.com/7ewh>.
(<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=b4psre%24
hb5%241%40bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fas_q%3D%26num%3D10
%26as_scoring%3Dr%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
%26as_epq%3D%26as_oq%3D%26as_eq%3D%26as_ugroup%3D%26as_usubject%3D%26a
s_uauthors%3D%26as_umsgid%3D%253Cb4psre%2524hb5%25241%2540bunyip.cc.uq
.edu.au%253E%26lr%3D%26as_drrb%3Dq%26as_qdr%3D%26as_mind%3D12%26as_min
m%3D5%26as_miny%3D1981%26as_maxd%3D13%26as_maxm%3D3%26as_maxy%3D2003%2
6safe%3Dimages>)

- --
David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org>

"There is no constitutional requirement that the incremental cost of
sending massive quantities of unsolicited advertisements must be borne
by the recipients." - Judge Graham, Compuserve vs. Cyber Promotions

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Sunny

unread,

Mar 15, 2003, 7:31:58 PM3/15/03

to

"Kathy Morgan" <kmo...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:1frpepz.11ay6df12gy
jh1N%kmo...@spamcop.net...
<snip>

> What an appalling situation for the subscribers! You have my sympathies.
>
> Thanks to you and the others who responded. I was beginning to wonder
> if anyone had seen the UDP proposal; I've just never seen so little
> reaction to one. Usually there are at least several non-spamming
> customers of the abusing provider who come in shouting and unhappy about
> the proposed action, so I was really surprised this time at seeing no
> followups at all.

Just to add, as a Telstra/Bigpond cable subscriber, ringing the "help" desk
is an exercise in utter futility. They are an outsourced contract organization
who have no interaction with Telstra supervisor staff.
I only found out about the UDP after reading about it on an "internal" bigpond
news group. (and a few days wondering why my contributions in most news
groups were being ignored.)
I rang the help desk and got the usual "huh?" and a grudging promise to
"escalate" my "complaint" upward.
My e-mail on the subject met with an auto responder, and as yet, no
comments. telstra is a monopoly, and they "own" all the telephone lines
and most of the cable, any competitor has to rent the lines of them.

Telstra News Administrator

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 1:12:07 AM3/18/03

to

Following the Request for Discussion of enforcing an UDP against Telstra,
Telstra has taken several steps to rectify the problem.

Telstra voluntarily implemented a temporary internal UDP. This internal
block stopped the propagation of postings from the server
news-server.bigpond.net.au.

After investigating the allegations of spamming on newsgroups by BigPond
customers, Telstra has disconnected several broadband customers for posting
spam.

At 0100 15 March AEST (1400 14 March GMT), a software application that
greatly reduces the propagation of spam was installed on the offending
server. At that time, the internal block was removed. Over the last two
days, no Telstra server has been listed in the "Cancelled Spam" and "Top
100" bulletins posted to news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Telstra views spamming very seriously and is strengthening its spamming
policy. As part of this, Telstra is reviewing its handling of abuse
complaints. Telstra will be more vigilant with suspected spamming activity.

Because of the actions discussed above, Telstra believes that there is no
longer any reason for the UDP to be brought into force.

Regards,

Peter

---------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Marrinon
Systems Engineer
Internet Development
Global IP Networks
Telstra

Howard Knight

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 1:29:20 AM3/18/03

to

Telstra News Administrator (news...@telstra.net) wrote:

> Telstra voluntarily implemented a temporary internal UDP. This internal
> block stopped the propagation of postings from the server
> news-server.bigpond.net.au.

You UDPed yourself? Didn't another ISP (Blueyonder) do this to itself a
while back? Can somebody pinch me please? This is getting too easy.

> Because of the actions discussed above, Telstra believes that there is no
> longer any reason for the UDP to be brought into force.

Thanks for your actions and response. Unless your spam volume goes way
up again (and stay there), I see no reason to issue a UDP notice against
Bigpond.

Howard

Telstra News Administrator

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 1:52:08 AM3/18/03

to

To clarify, the interal block was only for posts from
news-server.bigpond.net.au, which is the server used by BigPond
Broadband/Advance.

All other Telstra Internet products (BigPond Home, BigPond Business, BigPond
Satellite and Telstra Internet Direct) were unaffected.

Peter

"Howard Knight" <how...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:9%yda.1324$2x2.5...@dca1-nnrp1.news.algx.net...

Message has been deleted

Esa A E Peuha

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 4:50:43 AM3/18/03

to

Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com> writes:

> "Telstra News Administrator" <news...@telstra.net> wrote in message
> news:3e76c1c3$0$84080$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...

> > To clarify, the interal block was only for posts from
> > news-server.bigpond.net.au, which is the server used by BigPond
> > Broadband/Advance.

> What software did you install to filter spam?

None; they blocked all traffic from the server that was used by spammers
(as far as I understand the above sentence).

Now if only titannews.com and shaw.ca would do something similar...

--
Esa Peuha
student of mathematics at the University of Helsinki
http://www.helsinki.fi/~peuha/

John Helliwell

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 5:18:00 AM3/18/03

to

Telstra News Administrator wrote:

> Following the Request for Discussion of enforcing an UDP against Telstra,
> Telstra has taken several steps to rectify the problem.

During the time that Plusnet have peered with Telstra, we have seen little
or no spam from Telstra; in fact I cannot recall Telstra appearing in our
Spamhippo logs once, so I am quite satisfied that Telstra are acting in a
responsible manner.

Kind Regards

John Helliwell
Plusnet Newsmaster

remove the x to reply

--
| John Helliwell Unmetered & ADSL solutions
| Network Services Engineer for Home & Business
| PlusNet Technologies Ltd @ http://www.plus.net
+ ----- My Referrals - It pays to recommend PlusNet ----- +

Michael Hart

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 6:28:54 AM3/18/03

to

"Kathy Morgan" <kmo...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1frpepz.11ay6df12gyjh1N%kmo...@spamcop.net...

> David <mail...@telstra.abuse.com> wrote:
>
> > It would not be surprising to me that Telstra, being the near
> > monopoly providor of wholesale data services, simply didn't care
> > too much about a UDP. (snip)
> >
> > Broadband clients are locked into minimum term contracts and
> > simply saying "I am not happy. Goodbye" isn't possible for many
> > telstra/bigpond users no matter how unhappy they are. Telstra is
> > Australias largest supplier of telecomms and the near monopoly
> > provider of "last mile" copper. Many bigpond clients have
> > consolidated their wired telephone, mobile telephone and internet
> > into one account, so refusing to pay places you are at risk of
> > having your telephone account frozen and then being automatically
> > listed as a bad credit risk on numerous credit reporting services.
(snip)
>
> What an appalling situation for the subscribers! You have my sympathies.

Just to add to David's post. Many of us were waiting for the UDP to take
effect so Telstra would be in breach of its contract with us and we could
then move to an alternative ISP without incuring heavy penalties.
Alternative broadband ISPs are only just becoming available in regional
areas in Australia.

It seems that Telstra has figured this out and have now rectified the
problem so we are still locked into our long term contracts - the only ones
available until recently.

Kwyjibo.

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 11:20:45 AM3/18/03

to

Michael Hart <mixstat-...@bigpond.net.au> said

<snip>

> Just to add to David's post. Many of us were waiting for the UDP to
> take effect so Telstra would be in breach of its contract with us and
> we could then move to an alternative ISP

<snip>

That wouldn't work.
If you read the contract you signed (or clicked) with Bigpond, nowhere does
it mention usenet as part of that contract. All they are legally obliged to
provide you with is a working IP address and connectivity to the outside
world.

--

Kwyj.

Sunny

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 5:48:42 PM3/18/03

to

"Esa A E Peuha" <esa....@helsinki.fi> wrote in message news:86py93duhpo.fsf@
sirppi.helsinki.fi...

> Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> > "Telstra News Administrator" <news...@telstra.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e76c1c3$0$84080$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
> > > To clarify, the interal block was only for posts from
> > > news-server.bigpond.net.au, which is the server used by BigPond
> > > Broadband/Advance.
>
> > What software did you install to filter spam?
>
> None; they blocked all traffic from the server that was used by spammers
> (as far as I understand the above sentence).

and blocked a lot of innocent subscribers in the process, including me until
now
(5 days)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 18, 2003, 5:52:34 PM3/18/03

to

Not exactly true (extract from telstra terms and conditions) :-

13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,
access to global Newsgroups, ability to upload and download files
to and from the global Internet using the File Transfer Protocol,
Telnet, native and HTTP access to global Gopher services,
all Software and such other additional similar services as we may
advise from time to time.

"global news groups" are part of "usernet"

"Kwyjibo." <sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:Xns934321E03
4456...@130.133.1.4...

Tim Booth

unread,

Mar 19, 2003, 12:52:08 AM3/19/03

to

> > Following the Request for Discussion of enforcing an UDP against
> Telstra,
> > Telstra has taken several steps to rectify the problem.
> >
>

> Thank you Peter for responding in such a public and forthright
> manner.
>
> One request though... could you please make 10,000 clones of
> yourself and liberally distribute throughout telstra :-)

10,000 seems a little high...

Just 4 or 5 seems sufficient in the right places, yah??

Cheers

Webko

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 19, 2003, 5:18:45 AM3/19/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Wed, 19 Mar 2003 05:52:08 +0000 (UTC), Tim Booth <tbo...@usyd.edu.au> wrot
e:

>10,000 seems a little high...
>
>Just 4 or 5 seems sufficient in the right places, yah??

Yeah, but Telstra could win points by selling clones to Chinese,
Korean and American ISPs. It's a serious tossup on who is the larger
spam source between those three still.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system

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Telstra News Administrator

unread,

Mar 19, 2003, 10:10:11 PM3/19/03

to

> > What software did you install to filter spam?
>
> None; they blocked all traffic from the server that was used by spammers
> (as far as I understand the above sentence).

That's not correct. The block was a temporary solution that was only in
place until the anti-spam software was installed.

Regards,

Peter

Telstra News Administrator

unread,

Mar 19, 2003, 10:12:18 PM3/19/03

to

> What software did you install to filter spam?

> And FYI, news-server.bigpond.net.au currently outputs this as the
> Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au)

The Broadband guys installed Cleanfeed on the server.
I'll let them know about the poor Organization header.

Peter

Sunny

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 2:45:23 AM3/20/03

to

"Telstra News Administrator" <news...@telstra.net> wrote in message news:3e7

9317b$0$84081$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...

Not your problem, I know. But could you also ask them to get their act togeth
er, and
sort out why I and others are being blocked from posting to the server.
I ring them every day, but the help desk can only log the problems. :-(

Sunny

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 2:48:31 AM3/20/03

to

"Telstra News Administrator" <news...@telstra.net> wrote in message news:3e7

930fc$0$84079$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...

Apologies for butting in again, but could you also let them know (Telstra) tha
t
"binaries" are still being allowed on non binary groups (bigpond.broadband.use
rs, for a start)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 10:10:08 PM3/20/03

to

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:52:34 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>Not exactly true (extract from telstra terms and conditions) :-
>
>13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
>from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
>BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,
>access to global Newsgroups, ability to upload and download files
>to and from the global Internet using the File Transfer Protocol,
>Telnet, native and HTTP access to global Gopher services,
>all Software and such other additional similar services as we may
>advise from time to time.
>
>"global news groups" are part of "usernet"

And especially as Telstra apparently blocked its own newsserver
propagation. I was told by a curt helpdesk wallah that news was not
mentioned in the contract; that Telstra had NO problems in this
regard. When I mentioned the UDP, he claimed this was a press beatup
and untrue. I lost many hours of work and only realised that I was a
non-person from 10 to 15 March, when I checked Google after I noticed
no responses from international posters. As my posts appeared on my
system (except for ones to a bigpond users group) I think it
abominable that Telstra didn't inform its users or put something on
the status page, or even acknowledge it from the Helpdesk. This guy
only admitted a "problem" when I mentioned UDP. Up till then and even
after, Telstra had NO problems!
I intend to reduce my bill by 25% for March and explain why with lots
of quoting. Wish me luck, and send a search party if I disappear :)

>
>"Kwyjibo." <sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:Xns934321E03
>4456...@130.133.1.4...
>> Michael Hart <mixstat-...@bigpond.net.au> said
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Just to add to David's post. Many of us were waiting for the UDP to
>> > take effect so Telstra would be in breach of its contract with us and
>> > we could then move to an alternative ISP
>> <snip>
>>
>> That wouldn't work.
>> If you read the contract you signed (or clicked) with Bigpond, nowhere does
>> it mention usenet as part of that contract. All they are legally obliged to
>> provide you with is a working IP address and connectivity to the outside
>> world.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 10:25:21 PM3/20/03

to

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:12:07 +0000 (UTC), Telstra News Administrator
<news...@telstra.net> wrote:

>Following the Request for Discussion of enforcing an UDP against Telstra,
>Telstra has taken several steps to rectify the problem.
>
>Telstra voluntarily implemented a temporary internal UDP. This internal
>block stopped the propagation of postings from the server
>news-server.bigpond.net.au.

And you didn't tell anyone? SHAME!!! From 10 March to 15 March?

>After investigating the allegations of spamming on newsgroups by BigPond
>customers, Telstra has disconnected several broadband customers for posting
>spam.

So why the UDP?

>At 0100 15 March AEST (1400 14 March GMT), a software application that
>greatly reduces the propagation of spam was installed on the offending
>server. At that time, the internal block was removed. Over the last two
>days, no Telstra server has been listed in the "Cancelled Spam" and "Top
>100" bulletins posted to news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

And if you had programmed Typhoon properly and booted off the few
offenders? Why throw EVERYONE's work in the rubbish, just to solve
your international embarrassment?

>Telstra views spamming very seriously and is strengthening its spamming
>policy.

Is this why you ignore your customers and international ISPs who
complain to you about it?

>As part of this, Telstra is reviewing its handling of abuse
>complaints.

Are you considering responding? Doing anything would be a bit too much
to expect?

>Telstra will be more vigilant with suspected spamming activity.

Reading communications from international ISPs and investigating and
terminating a few contracts would have averted all of this, No?

>Because of the actions discussed above, Telstra believes that there is no
>longer any reason for the UDP to be brought into force.

Well you have already done a lot of damage to some of your law-abiding
customers. Howsabout some compensation for them?
Afterall, the contract we agreeed to includes:

"13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,

access to global Newsgroups,...."

You have cut off access to global Newsgroups for FIVE days.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 10:25:41 PM3/20/03

to

For five days from 10 to 15 March? Without a word to your "valued"
customers?

Moosh:)

nucleus

unread,

Mar 20, 2003, 10:59:15 PM3/20/03

to

You, cocksucker tim skirving,
better let this post to go through.

A few quotes for a warm-up cycle...

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order
to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for
patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and
the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader
will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by
patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the
leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
- Julius Caesar

In 1919 Joseph Schumpteter described ancient Rome in a
way that sounds eerily like the United States in 2002.

"There was no corner of the known world where some
interest was not alleged to be in danger or under actual
attack. If the interests were not Roman, they were those
of Rome's allies; and if Rome had no allies, the allies
would be invented. When it was utterly impossible to
contrive such an interest -- why, then it was the national
honor that had been insulted. The fight was always
invested with an aura of legality. Rome was always being
attacked by evil-minded neighbours...The whole world was
pervaded by a host of enemies, it was manifestly Rome's
duty to guard against their indubitably aggressive designs."

Herman Goering, president of the Reichstag,
Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in
Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along, whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament,
or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce
the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."

- Herman Goering (second in command to Adolf Hitler)
at the Nuremberg Trials

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the
populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety)
by an endless series of hobgoblins."
- H.L. Mencken

Now...

This is about the corrupt "power elite" of usenet,
the same thing as your corrupt governments
and about those evilest of all evil Freemasons,
who rule your sorry asses,
interested in maximizing the process
of sucking the blood of many by the few.

It is about your sick world and the WWIII,
you have cooking on your plate.

It is about bio-robotization of humans
and reduction of human intelligence
to the level of a functioning machine.

It is about your totalitarian dictators
and fascists, manipulating your guilt
and fear, while posing as some kind of
public servants, protecting all from
"evil", they themselves invented and
defined.

It is about the evilest of ALL evil,
calling the others evil, just as a decoy.

It is about corruption and deceit of
proportions unseen.

It is about so called New World Order,
and the foundations of it.

It is about these vicious criminals
against humanity, destroying your freedoms,
while making the sucking sounds with their
mealy mouths about protecting those very freedoms.

It is about the hunt down on your dissidents,
the best of your kind.

It is about you, people of the planet Earth,
during the last convulsions
of the Age of Corruption,
you all being fed as Information Age.

It is about your only two remaining "laws":

1. Money = god,
and god = money.

2. Either I suck your blood,
or you will suck mine.
There is just no other way.

It is about your world, coming down on you.

Eat it now.

In article <u3d258...@aegis.gooroos.com>, piranha <pir...@gooroos.com>
wrote:
>galim...@wahoo.com (Galimatias) wrote:
>>
>> Why can't responsible, knowledgeable, people like Russ determine
>> the ISP of "librarian" and request that he either stop his
>> disruptive posting to n.g. or lose his posting privileges?
>> (Has the eagle flown?)
>
> because people like russ are busy brokering peace in the middle
> east (a losing proposition these days), hunting down osama bin
> laden personally, and finding a cure for cancer.

Oh, finally, long time no see.

Ladies, Gents and assorted bio-robots,
itshehebe piranha, the big-sucking-8 fuehrer wannabe is here
to continue the campaign
of global deception and lies,
of fabrication and perversion
of all there is to pervert.

The first step, usually, on the way of self-promotion,
is licking asses of those, who are long due to retire,
and yet unable to loose their grip on power.

Yes, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely",
and usenet gives these fascists an equivalent
of absolute power.

Zo...

Licking the ass of Russ Allbery REALLY good
is about the best way to be noticed
and have a chance to be appointed,
mind you, APPOINTED
by the current clique of usenet fascists,
ruling the big-sucking-8,
the most censored, most blatantly fascist
and yet, most propagated hierarchy there is.

It is a hierarchy where the most blatant
censorship and group takeover with perverted
tricks of "moderation" by the most blatant,
self-admitted fascists, such as David Kinny,
who took over one of the most important groups,
the root of the entire AI hierarchy, comp.ai,
who conducted a campaign of lies, fabrication
and outright deceit,
is not only accepted, but promoted and cherished.

First of all, power on usenet,
like in the fascist or totalitarian systems,
is passed via appointment.

Screw the idea of democracy.
That idea is outdated and cancelled,
just as the 1972 global nuclear self defense treaty
cancelled by this 2nd derivative Freemason, Bush,
that senile monster with a mind of a juvenile,
who came to finish the trip of New World Order,
as blatantly and arrogantly proclaimed
by his own father,
one of the slimiest CIA figures in history,
whose dumb ass was ruled by the "silver fox", his wife,
just as was the case with the rest of them,
"rulers" throughout the times.

The same story as with that honorary 33 degree Freemason,
Reagan, who used a decoy of calling Russia the "evil empire",
just to delude all and distract everyone's attention,
plus put Russia on defensive.

"The best defense is an attack",
an ancient Roman technique,
and that 3rd rate movie actor
with mentality of a deranged cowboy
knew it all too well.

Because the REAL evil empire was his,
and he knew it all too well.
Service to that very evil empire
was exactly the reason he was awarded
a honorary highest degree in Freemasonry,
for his "long time and extensive cooperation
with Freemasons".

The question naturally arises:
What kind of "cooperation"
and what kind of "projects", significant enough
to result in awarding him the highest degree
in Freemasonry, were carried out by him
to benefit the agenda of Freemasonry?

Another words, a conspiracy behind the scenes
between Freemasons and Reagan
that resulted in some of the most devastating
developments in the world affairs,
directed by the hands of those servants of the beast,
whose sign is 666,
posing as some kind of seekers of light,
heart and truth just to delude all
as they always do.

On every single bar code
there is a sign of the beast.
The leftmost two thin lines are 6
and so are the rightmost two lines
and so are the two lines in the middle,
thus implementing the commandment
of that very beast:

"On the forehead of every single man
or in his right hand,
there must be my symbol, 666"

They seek power over others,
forever improving their skills of manipulation
of symbology with the help of occult and Kabbala,
during their secret rituals deep at night.

Some references before we go on:

http://educate-yourself.org/mcsvaliinterviewpt1.html
http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/skullbones.htm
http://www.hiscorearcade.com/skullandbones.htm
http://www.secretsofthetomb.com/excerpt.php
http://luxefaire.com/sculland.htm
http://www.knightstemplar.org/
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/global.htm
http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/rsub/project/disinfo/prop_newordr_trilateral.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
http://pnews.org/boards/feminism/messages/6.html

Now...

Reagan invented the idea of star wars,
trying to create the biggest military advantage
for his evil empire
in order to complete the trip of global domination,
just as Freemasons and Illuminati crave for
as evidenced on the back of one dollar bill.
"Novus Ordo Seclorum" - "New World Order".
That is what this is all about.

Yes, the same as here, control, domination, oppression,
violence of unlimited and unprecedented grade
and things of that nature. The same perverted,
crimially minded members of the "power elite",
hiding behind the concepts of democracy, freedom
and "protecting the american people form 'evil'",
they themselves invented and defined,
just like it is here, on big-sucking-8.

The same tricks, the same lies,
the same manipulation,
the same mass deceit,
the same violence,
the same blood boiling idiocy and intolerance.
The same totalitarianism and fascism
of raging grade, knowing no limits whatsoever.
Another words, the same old shit
since the times of poisoning of Socrates,
who gave you all the very idea of democracy,
about the most advanced idea
in the entire history of mankind
besides the idea of love,
being the very essence of life,
given to you by Jesus.

You nailed that one to a piece of wood also,
just as you always do to anyone, who stands
on your rotten, corrupt and violent way.

Then you have built the churches in his name
and used him as some kind of a commodity,
pretending to be serving him,
while, at the same time, stuffing your bellies,
making everyone pay you a "sin" tax,
using the tricks of guilt and fear manipulation.

Fear
and guilt.

That is how you tick by now
as a result of unending manipulation and
mind programming by the evillest of all evil,
manipulating your subconscious every place you look.

The very concept of god was perverted,
as though god was some kind of a ferocious monster
to torture you all
for non submittal to the doctrine,
even though that very Jesus told you
"how can you punish the blind for not
being able to see".

You burned Pythagoras alive and with him
the biggest library and accumulation of
the most advanced knowledge
on the face of the planet Earth,
he gathered traveling by foot
throughout all lands,
that was said to be burning for months.

Pythagoras gave you the most essential ideas
you use in modern technology and science,
the ideas that preceded your most advanced
scientific work by nearly 2 millenniums.
The Furrier analysis is but a byproduct of his
ideas. The idea of an octave and a concept of
harmonics, that is at the core of modern science,
technology and music was his idea.

The ideas of the most profound and mystical
significance of sacred cosmic proportions were his.

The solution of a triangle that finally laid
the foundation of modern civilization
as, for the very least, it allowed precise
calculation while dividing land into parcels
was created by him also. It helped to resolve
many conflicts between the people
and increased the precision of architecture
and science by the orders of magnitude.

The ideas of Pythagoras lay at the very foundation
of Masonic obsession with symbology to a large
extent. They took that sacred knowledge
and eventually perverted it to the point
well beyond horrendous,
finally leading to what you have now and,
specifically, the idea of New World Order.

Freemasons, the direct descendants of Zealots,
used the ideas of Pythagoras and converted it all
into a service of the beast, whose sign is 666.

Now, what remains of Pythagoras
"could comfortably fit on a post card",
so utterly it was all destroyed,
just to prevent any genuine progress
and a process of de-hypnotization of the masses,
kept in all sorts of delusions
throughout the times by the same evil,
blood thirsty conmen,
who are so negative and so uncreative
that the only thing they are capable of
is to forever invent new ways
of sucking the blood of others
and enlarge their bellies,
driven by the fear of "survival"
as they know not that very trust,
that propels all life.

Finally, they came to the point
where the real "god" of theirs
is the paper good of money,
and so they ended up forever
accumulating it, hoping to somehow
manage to run away from that very fear
of "survival".
They even invented this perverted idea
of "survival of the fittest",
the most devastating and life condemnating idea
there is.
That is the extent of their "creativity".

It is such a profound negativity
and mistrust toward their own being
and all life as such,
that it basically invalidates
the very concept of divine or "god".
If sucking blood of many by the few
is what you call "creativity",
then what your very idea of god is worth?
What is this very craving and thirst
for blood of others if there
is god to guide you all
and provide you everything in nature and beyond?

It is UTTER and COMPLETE negation of life.
It is an escapism from creativity
and brotherhood of all people
of the planet Earth
and not only people,
but all life as such.

Only if you TOTALLY mistrust
that very essence of life
can you become such blood thirsty monsters,
seeking one thing and one thing only,
maximization of the rate of sucking
of the blood of many by the few.

You massacred Mansur,
and you annihilated so many
of your brightest starts,
that it is simply amazing
you survived to this day.

You forever try to kill every single one,
who challenges your thirst
for sucking the blood from many
by the very few.

As a result,
you have not made any genuine progress
since the stone ages.

Now, it is OBVIOUSLY taken for granted,
and undisputedly so,
that Russ is on the par
with the world caliber "heroes",
better known to the masters throughout times,
as the biggest and most destructive monsters
that ever walked the face of the planet Earth.

Let us analyze it and see what those "heroes"
are made out of.

Now...

This conman Bush,
that mentally retarded idiot
with mentality of a 2 year old,
utterly incapable of grasping
the consequences of his own actions,
and can not even be held liable
as a criminal against the mankind
on the basis of his utter mental inability
to grasp it all,

without ANY proper legal proceedings,
without ANY evidence,
accepted by the courts of proper authority,
started a war,
and not against some terrorists,
but against the country of Afghanistan
merely furthering the agenda of NWO
and global domination.
At this junction, it is totally controlled
by the evil empire.

His initial claim
that they are interested in finding
"those, responsible for this horrible act",
was pure deceit,
just as you see it here, on usenet.
His real interest is the world hegemony
of evil, as the concept of New World Order,
pronounced by his own father states.
It is global domination, fascism and totalitarianism.
It is converting the people into puppets
and bio-robots, the functioning machines,
used by these very monsters
to become fatter and fatter and fatter
in their never ending thirst for blood.

That is why they created an extensive
collection of movies on the subject
of vampirism. It is done in order to create
the subconscious acceptance of vampirism
and make your vulnerable, suggestive
and programmable minds accept that very
"power" as something real,
planting the subconscious fear in you all.
Fear on one side and inevitability on the
other side. Cunning as it gets.
As Freemasons know all too well,
once you accept ANY idea,
you become a subject to it.
You become vulnerable to symbolic manipulations
using it as a sword of sorts.

That 3rd derivative Freemason, Bush,
knows ALL too well
that about the ONLY card in his deck
is the card with the sword.

Otherwise,
he can not possibly be of any assistance
to his own country
or solve ANY of the most urgent problems,
facing the world,
coming down on you.

His intelligence is on the par with an amoeba
and about the only thing he is interested in
is a fascist boot of "might makes right".
That is his only and exclusive tool and weapon.

The sword is the ONLY possible way
for him to keep his "ratings"
and look like something real,
something of significance.

He will create some the most devastating events
in the entire history of mankind
while perverting it to look like
he is a genuine servant of "good",
ridding the world of all "evil",
even though he is the manifestation
of that very evil,
spreading the fire of violence
throughout all lands
and achieving his own agenda
of world domination
manipulating and fabricating
left and right.
A typical mind of an evil monster
from the lands of the Masonic empire
of the united sucking states that
blatantly and arrogantly put the very
evidence of its satanic origins
on its own currency.

He poses as true and genuine servant
of his own people,
which is a lie, and nothing but a lie,
as he is the servant of the beast,
the one that sucks your energy,
interested in creating
the world hegemony of evil.

The evidence is all over.
It is so clear and concise,
that you must be totally deranged
not to see it,
or be such a pathological case,
manipulating the most perverted lies
to make them look like truth,
that it is well beyond comprehension.

The whole operation in Afghanistan
is a scam
and it is not clear,
and will probably remain secret
until the end of times,
who did it and why
and what agenda does it serve.

Using this scam with Afghanistan,
these evil monsters were able to
manipulate the world opinion,
playing the same guilt and fear card,
and obtain an overwhelming approval and
support and, at the same time,
boost their military budget to the levels
exceeding the cold war period by far.

Why?
For what?

These very servants of evil run their mealy mouths
about "cold war is over" and
"a new deal and cooperation" and,
at the same time,
spending more money on the military
than the entire Europe and Japan combined,
all in the name of "fighting terrorism",
being the masters of manipulation and fabrication,
using the most potent tricks
of manipulation of symbology
learned from Freemasons and Illuminati.

They are spending $400+ billions annually on this scam,
which is factors of magnitude more than
it would take to restore the entire economies
of Eastern Europe, Africa, Afghanistan and
the entire Middle East combined.
But they are not interested in restoration
of those economies. Instead, they are interested
in finding new tricks to facilitate their agenda
of global domination, keeping those economies
in a devastated state.

They brag about "free trade" and yet, keep the entire
world in powerty, starvation and misery just to make
sure no one can match their race of "blue blooded"
and they remain the exclusive dictators on the face
of the planet Earth.

The budget of this size is factors of magnitude more
than it would take to rid the entire world of hunger
according to the opinions of the experts.

The most amazing thing is that they managed
to manipulate guilt and fear of all their
people and support this biggest military
expansion on record even though the former
"enemies" are now being called friends.
How could the military budget of this magnitude
be justified with this "war on terrorism" scam?
Even at the times of the most expansive, nuclear
accumulation, the military budget was smaller
than it is now.

They will never "win" the war on terrorism
with these tricks and they are not even interested
in it and they know all too well, it is simply impossible.
Just the other way around.
The more they go around the world
and step on the other people with their
fascist boot of "might makes right",
the more they saw the seeds of that very
terrorism. That is probably the very
strategy of this global deceit as it
begins to feed on itself. It is likely
that the terrorist activity will increase
throughout the world and new countries
will be placed on a "black list" to be hit next
in this world hegemony of evil,
hiding behind the concept of
protecting all from "evil",
just as it is here on usenet.

That is about the fastest way to expand
the domain of the evil empire globally
and no country in the world
would be able to object.
Otherwise, they will be classified
as supporters of "terrorism" and become subject
of the next high tech military attack themeselves.
Cunning as it gets.

Even to believe this military expansion scam
is done in the name of "war on terrorism",
one must be simply senile or naive to the point
of oblivion.

It is not about terrorism.
It is essentially the same thing
as "war on crime" scam. The more war
on crime there is, the more you become
a fascist and a totalitarian state,
creating the very motivation to commit
that very crime you claim to be fighting
just to oppose you.
It is but a scam with the hidden agenda
of totalitarianism and fascism,
meant to convert the people
into functioning machines
eventually to be used
by the fattest parasites there are
to become fatter and fatter,
and build the tremendous enterprises,
feeding on this thing.

It is about the world hegemony of evil
and undisputable domination
by the evil empire
over all lands.

It is not a coincidence
that after becoming a president,
Bush immediately appointed the most ferocious,
the most senile and the most violent monsters
into top positions in the government,
related to violence, domination and military.

The unprecedented process of disassembling
the very foundation of his own country
and destruction of the most fundamental ideas,
such as democracy and justice, constitution
and other most fundamental principles,
has ALREADY been largely completed.

From now on, there is basically nothing left
of what was known as justice,
and especially the international justice,
which will inevitably lead
to great instability in the world.

The corrupt congress has already annihilated
some of the MOST fundamental protections,
provided by the constitution of the USA.

The totalitarian and fascist terror
is upon your land and all others.

At this very junction,
the actions by the most radical
right wing monsters
in the government of the USA
are nothing different
than an attempt to topple the government
and install the reign of the beast
upon all.

The situation in the world
is so destabilized
and the people are already
so corrupt and insane,
as their minds are being constantly jammed
with all sorts of ideas of violence
from any and all the channels
of communications and media,
that it is about the best time to
make his final attempt.

Your minds are already programmed
via trick of constant and unending repetition
of the most primitive and shortest ideas there are,
that the mankind has essentially became
the land of bio-robots,
literally programmed to oblivion.

Most of the communications are done
using the simplest and the most idiotic
ideas and templates.
An average sentence length is about 3.5 words
and an average word length is about 3.5 letters.
Vast majority of your communications
are virtually meaningless as there can be no
information in "How are ya? - Nice. How is
weather? - Nice" type of exchanges.

Thus, it has come the time
to complete the work of the beast.

There has never ever,
in the entire history of mankind,
been a better time to do it,
and again,
the evidence of that beast
is so compelling and so pervasive,
that all you have to do
is to pull out your vallet
and look at your own
one dollar bill.

On that very dollar bill,
you have written with your own hand,
your own death sentence,
and again,
using the Masonic symbology.
The symbol of a pyramid
is the symbol of the most powerful empire,
fallen into dust.

Furthermore, the writings in Latin
under the pyramid are:

1. "Novus Ordo Seclorum", meaning "New Order Of the Ages",
or, in modern terms, "New World Order".

Thus, the idea of NWO goes back to the times
of creation of the USA.
It is not a new idea by ANY means.

The symbol with the pyramid inside
is the Seal of the Illuminati.
Adam Weishaupt founded the
Illuminati of Bavaria in 1776.

Illuminati are the hidden worldwide cult
of world rulers or the "elite",
so secretive, that there virtually exist no
information about it even though they control
over half of the Internet, "entertainment" industry,
media, molding your minds and programming them
in any way they please, vast amounts of banking,
shipping, oil exploration and many other industries.
They think of ordinary people as "sheep"
to be lead to "enlightenment".

On the surface, they are interested in progress
and "enlightenment", but their secret agenda
is of the most profound evil.
It is essentially a pathological craving
for domination over all others,
guided by the powers of occult,
just as the beast craves for.
Their most secret concept is the idea of a
"fall from grace" or death
and eventual resurrection at some point,
which will happen between the years 2010
and 2020 according to their long term plans.
Since the time of creation of Illuminati
hidden society, their idea is to "lead the sheep"
to the eventual state of acceptance of a single
world government and a global totalitarian state.

Illuminati foundation lays in Freemasonry
and they accepted the occult symbology
of Freemasonry as their very guiding principles.
Thus, they are at the same time Freemasons
of the highest, 33rd degree. In fact, Freemasons
are used as a front of this hidden organization
as Illuminati pretend to not exist at all.
Using their usual tricks of deception,
Freemasons will claim that Illuminati no longer
exist and were active during the end of 17th century.

Here is a quote by their founder Adam Weishaupt:

Spartacus (Weishaupt) to Cato (Zwack, A Lawyer)

"Nothing would be more profitable to us than a
right history of mankind. Despotism has robbed
them of their liberty. How can the weak obtain
protection? Only by union; but this is rare.

Nothing can bring this about but hidden societies.
Hidden schools of wisdom are the means which will
one day free men from their bonds.
These have in all ages been the archives of nature,
and the rights of men; and by them shall human nature
be raised from her fallen state.

Princes and nations shall vanish from the earth.
The human race will then become one family,
and the world will be the dwelling of Rational Men."

Yes, hidden societies,
hidden societies.

Interestingly enough, is the idea of
"shall human nature be raised from her fallen state".

Thus the most dearly held concept of a phoenix,
the bird, risen from the ashes,
represented by the number 13.

Thus, he has laid down the concept of New World Order.

Then he goes:

"Morality alone can do this. The head of every
family will be what Abraham was, the patriarch,
the priest and the unlettered lord of his family,
and Reason will be the code of laws to all mankind.
This is our great secret. True, there maybe some
disturbance..."

That is where those "family values" come from.

Yes, morality is the trick.
"Good" and "bad" definitions.
Black and white.
The foundation of fascism.
The morality can be changed at will
in any way they please
at any given time. Things,
that were classified as "bad" before,
could be easily made "good"
and vice versa.

Morality can not be proven because it is based
on beliefs aledgedly derived from the "holy" books.
But who wrote those books?
Well, they say god did it.
So it goes back to blaming god.
Arguing about morality is essentially arguing
about existance of god, an excersize in futility.

Thus, morality becomes about the most potent
trick in their bag, serving the agenda of
eventual totalitarian state on a global scale.

Interestingly enough, morality has already been
accepted by the people at large as some "ultimate"
way to resolve any issues. It has become the
final determinant.

"Because it is a GOOD thing to do"...
That is about ALL you need
to justify virtually any act,
be it the most horrendous act of violence
and evil.

Then he goes on:

"But alas! the task of self-formation was
too hard for the subjects of the Roman empire,
corrupted by every species of profligacy.
A chosen few recieved the doctrines in secret,
and they have been handed down to us
(but frequently almost buried under rubbish of
man's invention) by the Freemasons.
..
Freemasonry is a Royal Art, inasmuch as it
teaches us to walk without trammels, and to
govern ourselves."

So, according to Weishaupt,
"... the task of self-formation was
too hard for the subjects of the Roman empire..."

Therefore, they need to be organized
by some external force, some "enlightened" "elite".
This is where the roots of fascism are.

Nevertheless, the idea of NWO,
as it is being currently played out,
is their secret doctrine of
a single world government,
a super state,
a global totalitarianism,
fascism, ruled by "right" and "wrong",
"good" and "bad", black and white.

Wonder why do these antiglobalists
rage so much?

It has been said by one of the Illuminati's mind
programmers and trainers that, according to his
information, the world government is to be
openly pronounced by the year 2020.
At that time, the United Nations is to become
an obscure organization having no effective power
to do anything of significance.

See http://educate-yourself.org/mcsvaliinterviewpt13.html
for more information.

The designs of many symbols in the
Great Seal of the USA are composed of 13 units.

13 leaves.
13 arrows.
13 stars.
13 berries.
13 stripes on the flag.
13 raws of stones on the pyramid.

"E Pluribus Unum" contains 13 letters
and so is "Annuit Coeptis".

There are 10 places on a great seal
where the number 13 is used.

Why?
What is so special about number 13?

13 is the number of death and rebirth,
death and reincarnation, sacrifice,
the Phoenix. 13 is known as "devil's dozen" in
some traditions.

Some references from
http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com

---------------- Quotes begin -------------------

A former witch, William Schnoebelen, in his book,
Satan's Door Revisited, p. 4.:
"The Phoenix, of Bunnu is believed to be a divine
bird going back to Egypt ...
This Phoenix destroys itself in flames and then
rises from the ashes.
Most occultists believe that the Phoenix is a symbol
of Lucifer who was cast down in flames and who ...
will one day rise triumphant.
This [belief] also relates to the raising of
Hiram Abiff, the Masonic 'christ'."

Albert Pike, in Magnum Opus, writes, "...
the Eagle was the living Symbol of Egyptian God
Mendes ... and the representative of the Sun
.." [p. xviii]

Manly P. Hall, in his book, The Lost Keys of
Freemasonry, states, "These were the immortals
to whom the term 'phoenix' was applied, and their
symbol was the mysterious two-headed bird,
now called an eagle, a familiar and little
understood Masonic emblem ."
[p. 108]

In one sentence, we see the admission that the
Phoenix Bird of Ancient Satanic Egypt was changed
into the Masonic Eagle and then Pike's admits that
the Eagle is the Symbol of the Sun God and of the
God of Mendes, both symbols being common Satanic
symbols of Satan/Lucifer !

---------------- Quotes end -------------------

Wonder why Russ Albery, the godfather of brainwashing
and party propaganda on usenet calls himself an eagle?
Guess.

The eye on the top part of the pyramid,
is an all-seeing eye of Horus, god of horror.
It is used to instill a subconscious fear.
"Big brother watching" type of thing.

George Washington, whose picture is on the
front side of one dollar bill, was a Freemason.

Another words, one dollar bill is about the hardest
evidence of the USA being the Masonic empire there is.
So obvious it is.

"When a Mason learns the key to the warrior on the
block is the proper application of the dynamo of
living power, he has learned the mystery of his
Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his
hands and before he may step onward and upward,
he must prove his ability to properly apply energy."

Illustrious Manly P. Hall 33°
The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, page 48
Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc.
Richmond, Virginia, 1976

"Warrior on the block"...
Looks like the right wing representatives in your
governments indeed. Their zeal and viciousness just
about fits this concept indeed.

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious
name to give to the Spirit of Darkness!
Lucifer, the son of the morning! Is it he who bears
the Light, and with it's splendors intolerable blinds
feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!

Morals and Dogma, page 321
Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Sovereign Grand Commander Supreme Council 33°,
The Mother Supreme Council of the World

"We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists,
and we shall provoke a formidable
social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the
effects of absolute atheism, origin
of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend
themselves against the world minority of
revolutionaries, will exterminate those
destroyers of civilization, and the multitude,
disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic
spirits will be from that moment without compass,
anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where
to render its adoration, will receive the pure
doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the
public view, a manifestation which will result
from the general reactionary movement which will
follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism,
both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Illustrious Albert Pike 33°
Letter 15 August 1871
Addressed to Grand Master Guiseppie Mazzini 33°
Archives British Museum
London, England

Quotes by Madam Blavatsky 32°:

"Lucifer represents.. Life.. Thought.. Progress..
Civilization.. Liberty.. Independence..
Lucifer is the Logos.. the Serpent, the Savior."
pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)

"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and
the only God." pages 215, 216,
220, 245, 255, 533, (VI)

"The Celestial Virgin which thus becomes the
Mother of Gods and Devils at one and the same
time; for she is the ever-loving beneficent
Deity...but in antiquity and reality Lucifer
or Luciferius is the name. Lucifer is divine and
terrestial Light, 'the Holy Ghost' and 'Satan'
at one and the same time." page 539

'The Secret Doctrine'
by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky

Hymn to Lucifer
by Aleister Crowley 33°

"Ware, nor of good nor ill, what aim hath act?
Without its climax, death, what savour hath
Life? an impeccable machine, exact
He paces an inane and pointless path
To glut brute appetites, his sole content
How tedious were he fit to comprehend
Himself! More, this our noble element
Of fire in nature, love in spirit, unkenned
Life hath no spring, no axle, and no end.

His body a blood-ruby radiant
With noble passion, sun-souled Lucifer
Swept through the dawn colossal, swift aslant
On Eden's imbecile perimeter.
He blessed nonentity with every curse
And spiced with sorrow the dull soul of sense,
Breath life into the sterile universe,
With Love and Knowledge drove out innocence
The Key of Joy is disobedience."

Now...

This arrogant, chest pumping idiot, Bush,
knew all too well,
that he is UTTERLY incapable
of helping the USA
to solve its problems
and find solutions to the issues of mankind,
including the global environmental collapse
forthcoming.

About the only thing he is capable of,
is to use the same old trick,
used by all other corrupt politicians,
a trick of decoy.

They simply start some war,
and play the guilt and the fear cards
to the extreme,
pumping up the concept
of "national suckurity",
yes, suckurity,
to hush down all those,
who might oppose them.

On that background,
they weave their nets of evil
and advance their hidden agenda
of the most profound evil.

They manipulate the media moguls
to make sure they only present
a totally biased information
to their own people.

Interestingly enough,
CNN, in unprecedented manner,
in the entire history of the USA,
blatantly announced that from now on,
it will censor all the information
and present only certain kinds of views,
they call "responsible information".
Just like it was done
in the socialist Russia
or the fascist Germany.

Thus, you laid the concept of freedom of speech
under the thumb stone.

From now on, you have no such a thing,
and will be fed the lowest grade crap
from nearly any place you look.

Poor you, poor you.

The concepts of democracy,
freedom of speech
and some of other of your most dearly held ideas
are but history.

From now on,
it is a global totalitarianism
by the evilest empire
that ever was.

Who do you think owns and runs CNN?

Guess.

What is a logo of AOL?
Well, the same pyramid
and the same eye of Horus.

What is a logo of CBS?
Guess.

So, the evilest empire of all
sucked-in the whole world
into this grand scam in Afghanistan,
and again, without ANY evidence.
All these concoctions,
they call evidence,
can not be recognized in principle
as they are done in violation
of the most fundamental principles
of justice.

Thus, your justice is dead,
domestic or international,
and so comes down your entire record
of legislature, law and principles
upon you.

From now on, it is a huntdown
instead of justice.

You can basically cancel
the legal system at this point,
and you wouldn't loose a thing.
In fact, you might even gain something,
compared to what you have on your hands now.

Because in the current context,
the people themselves
would probably resolve it just as well,
as they know all too well,
their time is near.

Even according to the materials
provided by the Offense Department of the USA,
which, from now on, is what its true name is,
and the opinions of the worlds foremost
environmental experts
by the year 2018 the planet Earth
will become...

a living hell.

These servants of the beast
started with one thing in Afghanistan
and ended up with a totally different one
and this is not the end of the story.
The story just barely begun.

The world hegemony of evil is upon your lands.

For each of the 6 thousand people
claimed to have died in New York,
you have nearly a 1000 people of Afganistan,
and UTTERLY innocent people, mind you,
suffering death and starvation,
horrible cold and humiliation,
uprooting from their homes,
being forced to live in refuge camps,
eating the dog shit,
these evil monsters throw down from the planes,
in this global deception campaign,
covering up their red horns
and trying to look "humane".

Just as the latest news reports arrive,
some horrible war crimes are being disclosed.
Killing of innocent people,
rape and pillage,
pulling the teeth out from the dead,
decaying bodies.

Just the other day,
there was a devastating attack
on the column of the cars, going to Kabul
to participate in currently held ceremonies
in government.

They were specifically rerouted to the back roads
by the spies and totally annihilated
by the USA killers in the air,
all in the name of "good".
Good?

The scene was the most
horrendous devastation imaginable.
Every single car had thousands of holes.
It is currently believed
that the person with the radio
informed the evil empire
and they came to do
their horrendous crime
against those innocent people.

War crimes?
Nope. It is all nice and dandy.
The international war tribunal
will not even bother.

So, the games have begun,
and all the parties
will be manipulating it
to their advantage,
causing the devastation and destruction
to their opponents,
and the evil empire
is all to happy
to annihilate ANYONE,
even if they are innocent.

At this very junction, different warring
factions in Afghanistan, give false information
to the evil empire and identify their enemy clans
as members of terrorist networks, using the evil
empire as the most potent weapon to destroy the
competing clans, and the evil empire is all too
happy to accommodate, no matter who is end up being
dead.

Because the people of Afghanistan
are but filth of the "inferior race"
to these blood thirsty monsters,
thinking they are some kind of pure blooded
Aryan race of rulers.

Those people do not count for anything.
They are just considered a "collateral damage",
the most cunning trick,
invented by the same evil monsters,
to disguise the most horrendous murder
as some equivalent
of a collateral on a loan for your house.
So cunning and perverted these cowardly monsters are.
They will not use the terms "murder" or "killing",
"destruction" and things of that nature.
Instead, they will lie to all
and make it look like
the most innocent thing there is,
being evil to the bone and marrow.

All your food that expired
a long time ago
is being simply thrown away in Afganistan
and used as a cunning trick
to make the servants of the beast
look like the most humane of all.
Some are even getting rich on this scam.

So corrupt you have become.

That is how ALL the fascist systems operate.
They think one Aryan is worth MUCH more
than any other "filth" or "infidel",
such as Afghanistani people,
who knew so much misery and horror,
you can not even begin to comprehend it all,
you fat, violent parasites,
posing as servants of "good".

So, for 6 thousand people, millions of innocent people paid.
And without ANY court proceedings.
Is THAT what is left of your concepts of justice?

They toppled the present regime
and, for all practical purposes,
took over the Afghanistan.
Was THAT the "goal" they had initially?

You mean you can just annihilate the whole Earth,
need be, just to find a few people
you claim are responsible,
even before the jury is in order?

Meanwhile, did they catch the one,
they claim to be responsible so far?
Nope.
Will they EVER catch him?
Guess.
Zo...
What happened?

Well...

Just another scam, just as usual.
That is EXACTLY how this global imperialism
of the New World Order,
as pronounced by that arrogant idiot,
the father of this monkey ass, Bush,
was supposed to work.

"Might makes right".
This is one of the main principles
of that very evil empire,
that called the others evil,
just as a decoy.

That is how they "take care" of their own people,
if those do not follow the party line.

Some of the most progressive,
intelligent and educated people,
genuinely contributing
to the modern world,
have been either annihilated
or otherwise destroyed
via millions of poisonous tricks and lies
of all kinds.

For example, what happened to that CNN reporter,
who was broadcasting the pictures of destruction
of Baghdad in the real time during
the desert scam operation. He was one of the
most honest reporters there are. Yes, his direct
broadcasts from the roof of the hotel in Baghdad
were not in alignment with the desires of the
evil monsters, conducting that campaign of destruction.
They only wanted a party propaganda and deceit
to be shown on the idiot box, you call TV.
But he had the courage to simply show it how it is.
Because he is a honest man.
That is why you do not see him any longer
on the idiot box, even though
he is one of the most unprejudiced
and courageous reporters in the whole world.

He just simply vanished and instead of him
they installed a puppet and a party propaganda peddler
as their main international affairs correspondent.

Plenty of the most progressive and honorable people
were destroyed or incarcerated
by the hand of that criminal,
Edgar Hoover, who created the most paranoid,
secretive and criminal system of espionage
on the most honorable and progressive people
of his own land,
that later became the FBI.

Hoover was a Freemason.

That "hero" of yours
conspired with the mafia
and was regularly paid
by that very mafia
in form of winnings from the horse races,
that were specifically cooked up
for him to win.
He would be simply given the information
in advance what horse to play on,
and that horse
would inevitably bring any money he wanted.

Another interesting thing
about that Masonic criminal
was his extra marital affairs with
men, all done in secret.
Is THAT how your "heroes" operate?

Another Freemason was Lyndon Johnson.

Now, who was responsible
for the murder of Kennedy again?
What happened to the wounds on his head
when the body was flown
from one place to another?
Well, the holes were completely different
than they were before.
Has ANYBODY found ANYTHING about it?

Nope, not to this day!
How is it possible?

Now, WHO was the head investigator on his murder?
Well, another Freemason. Remember?
Warren commission.
Edgar Warren was a Freemason.
What a surprise,
what a surprise.

He made certain orders
to prevent full and unbiased investigation
of about the most horrendous murder
in the entire history of the USA.

Who was Prescott Bush,
the grandfather of your pigmy ass,
ruling the house of the white mouse?

Well, one of the most radical
and ferocious Freemasons
in the entire history,
only on the par with Albert Pike,
one of the most "honorable" Freemasons there are.

Heard of KKK?

"I took my obligations from white men,
not from negroes. When I have to accept
negroes as brothers or leave masonry,
I shall leave it"

- Albert Pike 33rd*

Delmar D. Darrah
History and Evolution of Freemasonry 1954, page 329.
The Charles T Powner Co.

"General Albert Pike, who stood high in the
Masonic order, was the chief judicial officer
of the Klan."

As owner-publisher of the Memphis, Tennessee,
Daily Appeal, Albert Pike wrote in an editorial
on April 16, 1868:

"With negroes for witnesses and jurors, the
administration of justice becomes a blasphemous
mockery.
..
We would unite every white man in the South,
who is opposed to negro suffrage, into one
great Order of Southern Brotherhood, with an
organization complete, active, vigorous,
in which a few should execute the concentrated
will of all, and whose very existence should be
concealed from all but its members."

Pike became a Convicted War Criminal in a
War Crimes Trial held after the Civil Wars end.
He had fled to British Territory in Canada.
Pike only returned to the U.S. after
his hand picked Scottish Rite Succsessor
James Richardon 33° got a pardon for him after,
making President Jackson a 33° Scottish Mason
in a ceremony held inside the White House itself!

Welcome, USONA (United States Of North America),
as the people of the South America call you.

How about the murder of Dr. Marin Luther King?
Ever heard?
Now, you, conmen, even have a holiday in his name,
huh?

But it is ALL fake,
and you know it, don't you?
You are just using the same trick,
the same decoy,
the same lies,
the same perversions and deceit,
just as you always do.
You don't "care", or do you?
How many of you truly care about
Dr. Martin Luther King?

No one is going to argue
the issue of terrorism
being the problem in the world.

But...

First of all, the very roots of it
need to be examined and they may
turn out to be quite different
then what you are being fed.
When justice is only applicable to
one party and not the other,
and that other party tried all
it can to resolve it and all in vain,
then you have the seeds of terrorism
sown with your own hand.

That is how it is.

Yes, in some cases, the reason may be some manifestation
of radical nationalism or religious fanaticism and
intolerance, leading to fanatic violence.
But not in all the cases by far.

There are ways to handle the issues of terrorism.
There is United Nations, Security Council
and other international organizations,
treaties and conventions.

The international terrorism
can not be resolved just to facilitate one empire,
and the evilest empire of all,
no matter what kind of cunning tricks
of guilt and fear manipulation
they use to suck-in the whole world
into this grand scam
to promote the world terror of totalitarianism
played by the servants of the beast.

It needs to be resolved according to the principles
of the international affairs
and not as a trigger happy Texan cowboy style.
Because it may end up costing WAY too much
to the whole world at the end.

It is a matter concerning the whole world
and it needs to be carefully studied,
and analyzed by the most intelligent
and insightful people of the world.
They need to come to a joint conclusion
and provide their recommendations
on how to solve this issue.
Because it can not be solved
to facilitate the interests
of a single empire,
no matter what kind of campaigns
of lies and deceit they use,
those servants of the beast.

The root causes of it need to be examined
and the attempts to resolve it in a constructive
manner need to be created.

According to some of the most insightful views,
the sword is not the way to do it.
After all, is THAT how you solve the disputes
in business or any other activities in your societies?

Do you go to a business meeting and put a gun on
the table of negotiations?
Or you work things out
to make sure both parties can live with it?

Then how come you go with a gun to solve these
problems?
Oh, there is simply no other way to solve it, huh?

Oh yes, there are.
You haven't even tried to look at them,
because YOU want to remain on the top of all
and dictate your evil will
with the power of the sword.

Yes, dictate, just as you do here, on usenet,
in the most propagated hierarchy there is,
big-8, ruled by the same exact fascists and
totalitarian dictators.

You are not even interested in having a fair deal.

Just give "evil Saddam" some computers to bring
up the level of Iraqi people to the world standards.
Give them some contracts.
Send some education people to help them catch up
with the "modern" world. It will help them,
and it will help you. You will even make money
on that thing at the end and you know it
ALL too well.

After all, who fed Saddam for as long, as you did?
Remember?

The same scam as with Bin Laden.
The same scam that you ALWAYS use
throughout the world
to overturn the governments
and install your puppets,
violating your own principles
and international conventions,
supporting the murderers and terrorists
and doing all sorts of other
not so noble things you do.

Just the other day, the information has been
revealed that the plane crash in Scotland
in the 80s was a setup. Later on, Libya was
accused of hiding those alleged terrorists
and all sorts of sanctions were imposed against
Libya to bring it to its knees.
But the underlying reasons for that scam were...

Well, one of the largest oil feels in the world,
found in Libya. Also, there is a project to build the
oil pipeline from Turkmenistan via Afghanistan
to serve the US interests.
So, the same evil monsters staged that whole "operation"
just to get their hands on one of the largest oil fields
in the world and the pipeline? Exciting, ain't it?
Would be interesting to see if any more details
on that whole "deal" will ever appear in the world media.
Anybody wants to take a bet on it?

Yes, YOU, the evil empire,
promote that very terrorism,
you pretend to be fighting,
and even at this very moment,
while, with the other side
of your sucky lying input hole,
you are making all these sucking sounds.

One more time:

AT THIS VERY JUNCTION,
YOU ARE PROMOTING AND SUPPORTING TERRORISM,
AND YOU KNOW IT.

This whole thing in Afghanistan is but
a huge farce to get closer to the borders of Russia
for one thing, because...

Well, because you know it all too well,
according to the studies
of your own Offense Department,
which is what its true name is,
that about the only inhabitable place on Earth,
literally within the next 16 years,
will be...

Guess, monsters.
Yes, it will be Siberia in Russia.
THAT is where we are at.

THAT is EXACTLY why
you planted the top secret plans
of nuclear annihilation of Russia,
disclosed on the front cover
of your own major magazine
in the month of February,
just a couple of years ago.

Remember that talk with Putin?

"Look guys, you are telling everybody
the cold war is over, but this is the problem
I have with you".

And he showed them the front cover
of their own major magazine
with that very map
of nuclear annihilation of
of Russia and Ukraine.
Is THAT how friends behave towards one another?

Yes, that was a plant.
According to that monstrous plan,
all, most developed and densely populated areas
in Russia and Ukraine, were marked as the red hot zone
of nuclear annihilation.

The estimated damages,
even according to your own estimates are?
Well, just some stinky 20 million people!
What?
Hitler is turning in his grave.
He is simply jealous!

But that was a decoy again, Freemasons.

Ever heard of the Bohemian Club?
The rulers of the world?
Some of your top politicians, businessmen,
members of government, supreme court,
military and "intelligence"
by invitation only,
discussing the "hottest opportunities"
in the whole world?

Poor you,
poor you.

The Bohemian Grove is a 2700 acre redwood forest,
located in Monte Rio, CA.
It contains accommodation for 2000 people to "camp"
in luxury. It is owned by the Bohemian Club.

July 11, 1997 Speaker: Ambassador James Woolsey
former CIA Director.
"Rogues, Terrorists and Two Weimars Redux:
National Security in the Next Century"

July 25, 1997 Speaker: Antonin Scalia, Justice
Supreme Court

July 26, 1997 Speaker: Donald Rumsfeld

Some talks in 1991, the time of NWO proclamation
by Bush:

Elliot Richardson, Nixon & Reagan Administrations
Subject: "Defining a New World Order"

John Lehman, Secretary of the Navy,
Reagan Administration
Subject: "Smart Weapons"

But the real thing still remains secret,
at least as these monsters think,
and that is...

The nuclear attack on this scale
can not be carried out
without completely devastating
the environmental situation,
effectively ending life
on the planet Earth,
and you KNOW it ALL TOO WELL.

Zo...

What was that plan about then?
Simple, perverts.
To weaken Russia and make them paranoid
so they spend all the money
on strengthening their nuclear arsenal
to oppose you.
Then hit them at the weakest point.
That is what kind of a chess game you play.

But the real attack would be...
Well, biological.
Yes, biological.
Forget all these international conventions
and treaties of all kinds.
ALL fake.

That way, you do not have to destroy the infrastructure
or cause a tremendous impact on global environment.
It simply remains intact,
but those "inferior race" Russians
just simply go poof.

Nice show, ain't it?

Because you need to move to Siberia,
the largest piece of real estate
in the coldest region of the Earth,
and the time is near.
It takes time to build a new infrastructure,
and you have but 16 years left.

THAT is why,
that is why,
you see what you see
on the idiot box,
you all call TV,
feeding you all sorts of the lowest grade shit
and the most horrendous kinds of violence
just to dumben you all
and convert you into bio-robots,
the functional machines,
used by the fattest parasites there are
just to become fatter
and fatter
and fatter.

Zo...

What are these sucking sounds going on right
now about "new cooperation" and "new deal"
of "friendship" with Russia?

Well, ask Freemasons.
ALL fake.
PURE FAKE,
and NOTHING BUT FAKE.

You will NEVER EVER relinquish
your reign and allow any other country
to be on the equal footing with you,
either in terms of military might,
or commerce and business,
technology or anything else for that matter.
So evil you are at the very core.

Because you are ruled by the beast.
That is all there is to it.

You don't believe a single word you say
and ANY and ALL "agreements"
anybody signed with you
is just a check,
signed with an ink
that will simply vanish one day.

Yes, NONE of your so called agreements
are worth ANYTHING.

You are bankrupt.

You have a tremendous negative bank balance
from ANY angle you look at it,
and some things you can still manage
to keep "top secret".

Look at, monsters,
it isn't even funny at this junction.
All your so called secrets
are utterly transparent.

One more time,
to Freemasons and all those,
who share the same views and beliefs:

WHAT YOU THINK YOU HOLD ON YOUR HANDS
AS TREMENDOUS WEALTH
IS DUST,
AND NOTHING BUT DUST.

How many times do you have to be reminded?

Another lil thing: you were told to keep
NASDAQ at below 1500. It is around 2000 now.

You were forewarned.

Your entire economic system globally,
may collapse in no time at all.

Why are you so suicidal?

Now, as far as the Arab world goes.
After all, this is YOU,
who kept not only Iraqi,
but all Arab lands, under the lid.

It is YOU, who divided their lands
and imposed YOUR version of the universe
upon these people.

Sure, some local dictators
will forever do the same thing,
but even Stalin and the people of his kind,
would deal with you, suckers,
at least for the purpose of trying
to assert his own nation
as an equal partner
in the world affairs
and improve their economies.

But you refused it all. You want to be the
ONLY one that counts, rules, dominates and
dictates.

But you are fake.
You are but a horrendous fraud on a global scale.

Because you are but the blood sucking suckitalists
and you do not wish ANY other model of the universe
to become a reality,
but the model of sucking the blood
of many by the few.

That is why you conducted a relentless campaign
against the experiment in Rajneeshpuram, Oregon,
the experiment to create a new model of society
where people could live rejoicing and celebrating
every single moment, working for themselves
in freedom and harmony with nature.
But that model was not based on suckitalism
and, worst of all, it was beginning to look like
it was working.

So you, monsters, destroyed it all.
Some of the most powerful and influential representatives
of your corrupt systems including the royal crown,
the founder of Nike Shoes Company, Bill Bowerman,
that drug addict, who was getting off on sniffing
a glue, who lived nearby, the president Reagan,
your corrupt media moguls, all were doing all they
can to destroy that very experiment for at least
5 years until they eventually succeeded
as they ALWAYS do.

You even throw those people, who made you
filthy rich, on the streets, like used condoms.

Rotten to the bone and marrow
is the verdict.

How many conflicts and wars Russia started in the world
since the WWII?
How many wars truly evil empire started?
Well, the factors of magnitude more.
Not only that, but this whole scam in Afghanistan,
was a result of YOUR work.
YOU were pumping this conflict
and helping the same Bin Laden
to penetrate Russia from the south.

YOU fed this whole thing.
YOU gave them money.
YOU gave them weapons.
YOU gave them nearly all they've got.

Why?

Well, because you are not interested in Afghanistan
or the people of that land.

You are interested in RUSSIA.

Why?

Because, for one thing,
they represent the biggest challenge
to your global domination.

YOU want to be the ONLY "superpower" there is,
so you can dictate your evil will upon all
and rule the planet Earth, serving the beast.

Isn't THAT how the story goes?

At the time of operation in Afganistan,
the evidence was not there about Bin Laden's involvement,
or the extent of participation of various parties,
or the underlying reasons for it all.
Only some CIA and NSA fabrications and usual lies.
True information is likely to be kept
in the topmost secret archives
for another 40 years,
if the mankind manages
to survive to that time.

At that time, no one would give a flying dead chicken
about what happened 40 years ago.
Sure, they'd be making some hissing sounds indeed,
but this senile/infantile Bush
might as well be dead by then,
and all his vicious top brass in government,
that happen to be some of the most radical
and the most warring Zealots
and Freemasons you can find,
is so old, they'd be dead pretty soon anyways.
Who are you going to bring to justice,
if ever?

Who would give a flying dead chicken about it
in 40 years from now?

Just the other day,
the ABC released some 40 year old
top secret information.
It says that the same criminals
from the CIA and NSA
planned a destruction of their own navy ships
and killing of plenty of their own people,
just to fabricate the case
that it was done by Cuba,
in order to start
another thread of global escalation,
violence and destruction.

Mind you, the evilest empire that ever was,
the united sucking states,
started more wars since the WWII
than all the other countries of the world combined.

They always blame others,
but end up being the military aggressors themselves,
using all sorts of tricks and lies,
deceit and fabrications,
they forever use.

So, that kinda covers the issue
of "WEALLY wesponsible people
like Russ Allbery,
that worm, calling himself an eagle,
insulting the highest symbol of his own land,
doing it again in Afghanistan".

Interestingly enough, the New World Order concept was
announced when?

Well, it was announced at the time of the conflict in Iraq.

Why?

Well, because Bush, the senior,
by that time,
knew that the newest military weaponry
was ready to be tested
in the "real life" situation.

It was:

1. "Smart bombs", that are dumb enough to hit the
Chinese embassy in Belgrade, "just to show them
who they are".

2. Stealth technology in bombers and fighters.

3. Advanced system of global electronic espionage,
all linked up in real time, able to identify the
objects of less than a couple of feet in size
any place on Earth any time of the day or night.

So, if that whole thing was working, then...

Well, then OBVIOUSLY, the "new world order"
has arrived.

That is why that slimy Bush,
a trigger happy monster,
went as far as violate the secret
agreement among Illuminati
and announced the New World Order
about 30 years before it was to be announced.
It is likely to have been a sabotage
within the Illuminati spheres of influence.
In the Illuminati world government the USA
was not to be the number one player in the world.
They were supposed to be not even on the second place.
But Russia and China was.

So, the Texan cowboy pulled the trigger most likely.
That was about the most scandalous proclamation possible.
Now it became the living evidence of this whole grand
scam of a single world government, ruled by Illuminati
and Freemasons.

Isn't that how the story goes?

Zo...

Then there was this dirty trick with "Evil" Saddam,
when he was trapped in order to be used as the first
real warfare exercise to test the concept of NWO
and show to the whole world "who is your daddy",
a typical bully tactic of a Texas cowboy,
used by the evil empire since the day one.

Now, I betcha all the "intelligence" agencies
in the world, CIA, NSA, KGB,
and offense department,
have ceased their operations.
Because they are all falling on their asses,
having fun reading this lil piece of poetry here.

Have fun, munkstas.
Acharya Veeren treats.

There are zome other nice presents,
stashed away in some nice places,
to make sure you are kept
properly enter-
tained.

Not to worry.

Now...

Iraq was a perfect test field for several reasons.
First of all, it was a perfect excuse.
The Iraqi army has become the third largest army
in the world, which was pissing off the evilest empire,
because they did not want to loose the grip
"in the area where we have our interests", the
Middle East.

You see, the evil empire needs no other justification
to do ANYTHING it pleases beyond the concept of
"it is in our interest", no matter what region
of the planet we are talking about.
Because it is ALL "theirs"!

No law, no international principles or agreements,
or anything else is needed for them.

They are so blatantly arrogant
and so cunning and violent,
that they do not even bother
to consider the very agreements they signed.

All the other countries that signed ANY agreements
with these monsters were, are and will be routinely
screwed ANY way these cowboys and monsters want.

There is just unlimited number of tricks available,
and, most of all,
the most potent foundation of Masonic heritage,
based the mastership of manipulation of symbology
since the ancient times.

When you see the debates between the right
wing monsters and their opposition, the
skills of manipulation, fabrication, lies
and deceit are simply obvious on their face value.
Because most of those right wing monsters
are Freemasons or Illuminati.

Have you heard of a religion
that gathers deep at night,
performing the rituals
and learning skill of manipulation of symbology?

Skull and bones,
skull and bones.

You can not even begin to imagine
what you are dealing with.

They kinda miss the entire idea
that there are different countries in the world.
They know all too well,
it all belongs to THEM.

One more time: "Might makes right",
aka about the most fundamental guiding
factor of theirs.

The powers of the beast are many.
The powers of symbology are simply horrendous.

Interestingly enough, historically,
a VERY substantial part of the US presidents
and the supreme court in the USA were...

Freemasons again.

The same is throughout the world.
England is another example.

Interestingly enough, at least they ordered
some investigation into perverse Masonic
influence in the government, police and
other areas because it became abundantly
clear, the whole thing was affecting
the operation of the entire country.

Some disclosures of who is a Freemason
in government and police followed.

But in the USA, they TOTALLY suppress the
very existence of such perverse influence,
so there are no traces of it in the media,
even though even Freemasons themselves
published some limited lists
of who were the Freemason presidents,
supreme court justices, members of government,
famous businessman and others.
But ONLY in the past.

You can not possibly get the information
that is fresher than the same magic 40 years.
Yes the masters of deception seem to never
go to sleep.

Oh, you secretive cult,
chasing the paper god of money
with the symbol of the beast,
your time has come.

Thus, they can interpret anything they want
in ANY way they please.

And if that is not enough,
you bring in the congress,
and create any laws you want.

That is how it works,
that is how it works.

The congress consists of what kind of people?

Well, PLENTY of them graduated
from the most prestigious schools there are,
such as Yale, Harvard and Stanford.
These are the places
where they prepare the next generation
of your rulers.

Ever heard of Skull and Bones fraternity at Yale?
Heard of Harvard University?

Impressive!

Well, tellya a secret, just don't tell anybody,
that is where a significant percentage of your
next elite passes through.

Your TV and movie archives
have PLENTY of evidence
and specific shots and symbols
where your top politicians
meet and shake their hands,
or otherwise engage in various procedures,
be it in the hands of law, or otherwise.

There are secret handshakes, allowing them to
identify one another and even determine their
level or degree.

It is a totally secretive cult and, since no
information is ever published on who is who,
there is just no other way to know you might
be dealing with the one of your kind.

Now, they claim to be seeking "light, heart and truth",
which squarely places them in the religious domain,
even though, they routinely delude everyone,
claiming they are either some kind of
"charitable organization", and that is a pure bluff,
supported by specific evidence,
or some kind of a club, or whatever they might lie to you.

Just go say hello on alt.freemasonry
or simply examine the archives of that group.
It'll blow your mind to pieces,
if you have any part of your brain,
still alive and functioning.

But...

They never disclose their lists of current members.

Has anybody ever heard
of any other religion,
that is so secretive
as not to allow disclosure
of their membership?

Did president Carter ever hid the fact
that he is Christian.
In fact, it would simply sound ridiculous.
Why hide it, unless you are a criminally minded pervert,
hiding behind the cover of darkness?

Now, which one of your other presidents admitted
he is a Freemason? Anybody has a reference on this?

Which member of the congress, supreme court,
military, intelligence, or any other branch of
government admitted he is Freemason?

Is it possible to see some references on this?
Specific requests were made,
and on numerous occasions,
and the result?

Well...

Still waiting for it, just like with Russ Allbery,
David Lawrence, aka tale and the rest of this
criminal gang, ruling the big-8.

Anybody remembers the Oliver North story?

Well, look up the archives.

There is a shot there, where he uses a Masonic
symbol with his right hand. As clear, as a bell.
Nice long shot. All there. That is one of the
most potent symbols there are.

In fact, the same symbol is REQUIRED to be used
during the court proceedings. Exciting, isn't it.
It is like you are supposed to wear red horns
whenever you speak to the judge.

What a great progress have you made!

There are plenty of other examples in your own archives.
They are not even secret.
You can just go and get it if you want.

Oh, you have no time for that because you
are sucking Russ's ass here?

Poor you, poor you.

Get ready to service your new fuehrer, piranha.
Some interesting surprises are forthcoming indeed.

According to some pretty solid information
from some pretty informed people, pretty high "up there",
the planet Earth was divided into these lile rectangles
in the early sixties of the 20th century.

Each rectangle is a "property" of the USA
and there were specific people "responsible" for it
in the military and "intelligence" organizations.
So, the whole planet Earth
is like a piece of real estate,
all of which "belong" to the USA,
lil did anybody know.
Sure, not in exact and formal formulations,
but in the essential meaning.

Now, since the Middle East
is OBVIOUSLY in "our interests",
that is ALL the justification
the evil empire needs
to do ANYTHING they please there.

To make it possible, a pretty simple exercise was
concocted.

Anybody remembers what was the set of initial events
that led to the Iraq conflict?

Well...

There was this lil, tiny article in Boston Globe,
remember?

You just place one "lil tiny add"
and you become filthy rich,
which is "the American dream"
of pussy in the sky with diamonds.

The nightmare, they call a dream,
that all the bio-robots,
chasing the money god,
who run their mealy mouths
about how do they love their
country and their freedom,
dream about all their useless lives
of misery and submission to DA system.

Lil do they realize
that THEY exist for DA system
and not DA system for them,
as they were told.

They are mere numbers
in the giant computer,
ran by the big brother watching,
just as an eye in the back
of your dollar bill shows.
It is not an eye of god.
It is an eye of instillation
of tremendous, numbing fear
into all bio-robots,
programmed to oblivion.
The ultimate in perversion.

But,
for some strange reason,
they are all too ready to tell everybody:

"Go to hell now, I don't lick asses anymore.
Take your job and shove it up your ass.
I am filthy rich now".

That is the essence of the American Dream,
a pussy in the sky with diamonds trip.

It is the most negative thing there is,
UTTER condemnation of your own country
and the principles it stands upon,
such as suckitalism,
to call an escapism
and condemnation of the very system,
the "American dream".

If things are so nice and kosher,
then why do you tell them all
"go to hell", and piss in their faces?

Why do you need to run away
from it all?

To where?

Just keep going.
Enjoy life.
You love your country.
You love your ideals.
You love your system.
You love those freedoms,
your run your mealy mouths about.

Then why do you tell them
"go to hell and shove your job up your ass"?

Why?

First of all,
you are all in hell already!
Didn't you know?

Are you some kind of a slave,
that finally became free?

Then what was that freedom
you were running your mealy mouths
about before?

No, suckazoids,
YOU condemn that very country.

YOU, perverts,
lying your teeth off
all your miserable, useless lives,
putting the poisonous plastic smiles
upon your dumb, sucky input holes,
condemn the very principles,
that very country stands upon.

You condemn business as such.
You condemn the very idea of working.
You condemn all there is to condemn,
once you run away
after winning some virtual pussy lottery
and think, from now on,
you are protected by the paper god of money.

You run from your own people
and that thing,
you called freedom before,
was but a lie,
because now your found a true "freedom",
and that is:

you give a fuck
about anybody and anything,
but your own bank account.

You were chasing the paper god of money
all your useless, miserable lives,
and you finally "made it"!
Made what, dummies?

You merely signed your own death sentence, idiots.
You will NEVER be able to reconcile
this utter negativity toward your own system
until the day you go poof.
Do you realize this?

Zo...

Back to the original tree of corruption.

Anybody knows what Kabbala is?
Nah...
You, suckers, only want to suck.
But you don't want to learn your own roots.
So, naturally,
you get corrupt to the bone and marrow,
as you are at this very junction.

The conflict in Iraq
started with one tiny article
in Boston Globe,
somewhere in the back pages.

It said:

Saddam suddenly learned
(from whom do you think?)
that the Kuwaitis
drilled for "his" oil,
using the sophisticated oil drilling equipment,
provided by your know whom,
drilling not vertically down,
but under the angle
into a disputed territory.

Obviously, Iraq was claiming it is their oil.
So did the Kuwaitis.

By the way, I am Acharya Veeren.
You'd be dealing with Osho for one thing.
Ever heard?
The one, you poisoned.
Remember?

Zo...

Saddam went to Kuwaitis and told them to
"stop drilling for my oil".

They laughed at him and said:

"Go to hell!
We are in bed with the evilest empire,
that ever was or is,
and there aint a single sucking thing
you can do abouts its".

Abouts its, abouts its.

Nice, huh?

To say such an arrogant thing
to the third most powerful army in the world,
just about ready to defend honor
of the Arab people,
abused by these western empires to the hilt,
and ready to change the balance of power
in the Middle East?

Anybody heard of a "Churchill Elbow"?
Well, interesting story indeed.

When the Arab lands were divided by the west,
without ANY involvement of the Arab people of course,
the pencil slipped
as a result of the Churchill's elbow interference
and you ended up with the Arab world,
divided with the border between the countries
kinda crooked.

That was later known
as Churchill Elbow.

Oki, doki.
Zo...
Saddam says OK, gets up and goes where?
Well, he goes to Americans
as a matter of intercourse.
What ELSE was he to do?
Go to the United Nations
and get sabotaged by the USA,
using their voting power,
just like they did the other day
regarding the horrendous events
in the lands of Palestine?

He comes in
and, being the shroud politician he is,
asks the Americans:

"do you have ANY interest in that matter?"

They say: wut?

Sorry, dude,
we give a flying dead chicken

abouts its,

abouts its.

That was that seemingly dumb bitch,
a representative of the USA
in about the hottest region
on the whole planet Earth.

Now...

How is it possible
that she made such a blatant "mistake"
without consulting Washington, DC
and make such gross misrepresentations
on the subject of "our interests"
in the hottest region of the world,
by far?

How?

You mean the evilest empire of all
would put the dumbest bitch
in the whole free sucking werld,
utterly without a functioning brain
to even figure out such a simple thing
as to dial up the red hot phone back home
and ask:

"what is our position on this matter"?

WHO put her on that job and why?
WHO is responsible for this "mistake"
in "management"?
Guess who.
ANY active neurons on line?

Planet Earth,
Planet Earth,
ANYBODY home?

Oh....
Static again...
What an unfortunate circumstance...

You need it all too bad at the moment.

Well...
Then she should be hung by her pussy
as she essentially caused
that horrible war
that resulted in millions
of innocent Iraqi people,
suffering the consequences
of destruction of Iraq,
millions of children,
living in starvation,
poverty and disease,
the educational and transportation systems destroyed
to the point of no return
and on and on and on.

Yes, SHE was responsible for that war,
as if she APPROPRIATELY consulted
her own government, mind you,
she MUST have been told

"Tell him this:

Oh no, my ole buddy.
You don't fuck with Kuwaitis.
We won't let you do that.
Because it is not nice.
You are a nice man, huh?
Cause we never support but nice people.
Please, get off it, Saddam.
You simply have no chance".

Zo...

What would the American cowboy mentality
do in place of "evil" Saddam?
Guess!

Well...
They'd do EXACTLY the same thing he did.

They'd kick the Kuwaitis ass so good,
they'd remember it till the end of times,
as that is how noble Americans
from the land of freedom
resolve the issues
throughout history.

Just as they did in Afghanistan.

And so he did.
Nice setup, huh?
PURE beauty!

Well...

As soon as he did,
the strangest thing happened.
The evil empire
started running around the globe
in a global deception campaign,
running its mealy mouth
about "freedom, democracy",
making all the other sucking sounds
they usually make.

They sucked-in the whole world
into supporting their agenda

of world domination,

manipulating every single fact
to their advantage
and playing the guilt and fear card,
just as they always do.

Then came the MAIN part,
the fun of killing.

They fired up their stealth bombers,
tested all the "smart weapons"
in the real war theater,
and exercised their global espionage network
of satellites and electronic surveillance planes
and gadgets.

Hello, Mr. gadget.

Later on,
they used all this information
and experience gathered
to perfect this global system
of hegemony and violence unseen
since the dawn of civilization.

They did the whole works indeed.

At this junction,
they do not even have to fly
their planes into the war zones.

They can just release the rockets
from far away,
turn back,
and fly to their bases.

The rockets will finish the job of destruction,
using the sophisticated techniques
of Artificial Suckology,
they used to call
Artificial Intelligence.

That is the story of takeover of comp.ai
by the same fascist, David Kinny,
an intellectual pigmy,
who is so blatantly dumb,
as to claim he can "moderate"
even the subjects of such profound significance
with his AI-mad-bot,
with a piece of software,
written by the idiot,
who is now brainwashing
and "corrupting the minds of young"
at the university of Melbourne,
the lands of Australia,
one of the cradles of civilization.

It is such an arrogant insult
to his own discipline
and to the entire pseudo-science
of Artificial Suckology,
a science a maximization of the rate of sucking
of the blood of many by the very few,

the same pseudo-science,
that gave you these "smart weapons"
and put one empire,
and the evilest of all,
at such a tremendous advantage
over all the lands there are,
that you will all remember
the beginning of the end.

Yes, here, on news groups,
you have the same fascists,
TOTALLY censoring comp.ai,
the very root of entire AI hierarchy
and publishing ONLY the advertisements
or the shit they see fit.

Where are all these noble "spam worriers"?

Come,
save the planet Earth,
from the end of times.

Thus, you lost even the ability
to have a place for discussions
on this, probably most significant forum
in the whole Usenet.

Poor you, poor you.

Your life as people of the planet Earth
depends on that forum
to a significant extent.

Zo...

The benefits of operation in Iraq:

1. Test of the concept of new weapons
and accumulation of necessary data
to perfect those weapons.

2. Test of stealth technology.

3. Test of global espionage networks,
satellite surveillance, etc.

4. Getting rid of old, outdated bombs.

5. Replacing them with MUCH superior "smart bombs",
all at your expense.

6. Getting an extra $112+ billion of bucks to the
military and all the fat Freemasons, as military
contractors. You know how much all these Bushes
made out of that single number? Guess.

7. Finally showing to the whole world
"who is your daddy"
and ending up the dispute
of who is the "real" superpower
left in the world.
Once the whole world would see
this monster thing in action,
there would be no country,
who would challenge
the evil empire from then on.

8. Doing all the "real life" testing in the simplest
war theater possible. Nuking those "infidel" Iraqi
in the middle of the desert is like squashing lice
on a piece of paper, a piece 'o cake thing.

If you couldn't win in that theater,
better commit suicide.

Actually, you don't even need
all these fancy gadgets
to "win" there.
It is the easiest thing there is.
About the only problem
is the desert sand associated equipment issues,
that had to be tested and resolved anyways.

9. Last, but not in significance,
it restored a sour in the wounds
of these monsters,
damaged by the war in Vietnam.

Restoring the American "pride".

All the idiots forever
need a reinforcement of their "pride",
just to make sure
no one knows they are but idiots.

Nice, huh?

Say: yup, yup, bio-robots.

Beauty and cunningness of the scheme
is simply incomparable.
It is a masterpiece in deception,
that allowed them
to have virtually unlimited violence
and FULL freedom
to do literally ANYTHING THEY PLEASE,
and they are still doing it,
to this very moment.

There is just nothing like it.

Zo...

That is how the New World Order begun.

Buts...

You see, there is a lil difficulty here.

The concept of New World Order
is a perversion.

It is a perversion
of one of the most ancient Masonic symbols,
going back to the very roots of mankind.

It is perversion
of the issue of progress,
which was the original ancient concept
of "New Order Of The Ages",
just as recorded on the back
of your one dollar bill.

It is an act of evil,
a hand of the beast again.
The sign of 666 at work.

The original concept
was something TOTALLY different.

It was a realization of mankind
that with creation of the first stone building,
which is the very root of Masonry,
what you have created
is truly a new world order.

Thus "Novus Ordo Seclorum".

Why?

Well, because before that,
the mankind was just a bunch of gypsies
and traveling tribesmen.

They lived like a wind,
never getting stuck
any place in the world.

Because they could just pick up
their tents and gadgets,
and go anywhere they like.

Nothing to hold on to.

Now...

Once the first stone building was created,
the story was TOTALLY different.
You couldn't just pick up and go.

Now you started forming
the streets and cities.

You had first primitive
water distribution systems.
That was a genuine revolution
in mankind's history.

That created a totally new world order.

That is the root of Freemasonry,
even though some donkeys
place it somewhere in the 18th century,
being the dummies they are,
not even knowing their own roots
or merely trying to deceive all.

By the way,
anybody knows where did the symbol
of skull and bones come from?

The same symbol you carry
on the charred black, black flags
on the nukelar submarines
of the biggest class there is?

[Nukelar is a modern version of the term nuclear,
used by the top commandoes
and government of the evil empire,
because they are simply
unable to pronounce nuclear,
so superior they are to others...

That is why they are your "leaders"
on the first place.
Didn't you know?
The same thing is with many other words.

So, your "superior" Aryan race of rulers
are but fat pigs,
whose brain can not coordinate
the simplest activities,
associated with language and words.
THAT is how corrupt you have become.

Say hello to Jesse With The Helm
and a Nukelar Bomb Up His Fat Ass.
]

The symbol of skull and bones is a Masonic symbol.
A symbol of TREMENDOUS power and horror,
used to incapacitate people.
It was the beginning of organized manipulation
of fear...

That is why I say:

FEAR and GUILT,
THAT is how you tick.

And you don't even know it.
THAT is a pity thing about it.

You have been programmed
on the subconscious level
with the tricks of constant
and unending repetition,
of the simplest and most idiotic
templates and ideas there are.

You tick that way
because several generations before you
this mystic symbol was used
to install the immense fear in all.

Your empty skull,
and your hollow bones.

That is how it is,
that is how it is.
Better fall down on your knees and tremble.

This symbol was used
for all sorts of most horrendous
and destructive acts
throughout the history of times.

Eventually,
with the help of the same Freemasons,
it was placed on the flags
of the biggest nuclear
submarines there are,
belonging to the evilest empire
there ever was,
there is,
or there can ever be.

Why?

Well, simple.

To desensitize the minds of those sailors,
working this giant killing machine
of incomprehensible proportions,
so they simply become numb in their being,

as this is about the only way
to make you do what they do,
destroy all life on Earth.

You must be TOTALLY desensitized
and dumb as a piece of wood.
You must be the MOST obedient thing there is
and NEVER EVER question
ANY of what you are about to do.

You must be as dumb,
as a piece of wood,
not to insult
that piece of wood.

That is why I say
holey-sucking-wood,
the land the most horrendous hype,
and violence unseen,
the land of plastic smile,
the land where the templates are made
to prototype you all
into dumb, insensitive bio-robots,
the walking zombies,
craving for more "excitement",
which they forever multiply,

as with every "more exciting picture",
you become dumber and dumber,
more insensitive
and more idiotic.

By now, you are but walking zombies
and they can feed you
the lowest grade shit there is,

and you will eat it and say
"yummy yam yummy,
I want more of that".

So dull and insensitive
you have become.

THAT is where the roots
of terrorism are.

Because you are so insensitive
that you start doing things
and poke your dirty, arrogant nose
into the affairs of those,
you do not either comprehend
nor care to even bother
to comprehend at all,

and so you go around the world
and squash everyone
with your fascist boot of
"power makes right",

and when these people object,
you pull out your Texas style gun
and shut them between the eyes,
like you have shot your own president,
one of the brightest stars
in your entire history and heritage,

because that man alone
went against his own clique of Freemasons,
not even knowing who they are,
those death seeking monsters,
serving the sign of the beast,

and was able single handedly,
just with the help of that Russian simpleton,
another giant, Khrushchev,
save the Earth
from inevitable self-destruction.

But...

Even Kennedy
was unable to make the first step...

All the recommendations by his own
top brass in military were made
to nuke those Russians.
All the red hot buttons
of global nuclear mutual annihilation
were opened
and all the codes were handy,
just one word,
and the world is finished.

You all have to fall down on your knees
and kiss the ass of that Russian peasant,
Khrushchev,
the same man,
who took off his shoe
in your house of delusions
and did the only thing possible
to wake up all the zombies,
from the slumber you were in,

so he banged that shoe,
and he banged that shoe,
and he banged that shoe,
and he banged that shoe.
So, you've got the message indeed.

Although, later on,
you arrogant fascist pigs,
laughed at him
as a "typical Russian commie with the mind of a peasant".

Oh yeas?

That "typical Russian commie"
saved the world, dummies,
as not only he contacted Kennedy,
but he did something,
that never happened before,

He went on the open air
on the Radio Moscow,
and made his offer to the world.

Kennedy could not manage to do it.
But he did.

Because it was a matter of seconds then...

You were all hanging
on a thread so thin,
even the devil himself would not manage
to hold you on it.

But that Russian peasant
had enough heart,
yes, listen dummies,
not BALLS, you call heart,

but REAL heart
of sensitivity,
the greatest treasure there is,
the wisest thing there is,
the very essence of existence.

He simply FELT the world,
and he didn't think for a second
about his pride
or his "great nation".

No he simply felt LIFE as such.

Better make a Khrushchev Day.
This is an official request
from Acharya Veeren.

Better comply,
better comply.

And that day,
better be made a GLOBAL holiday
for ALL people
to remember the story,
that is about to unfold again.

Only this time,
you have a Freemason, monster,
ruling in your house of delusions,
so you don't have much hope.
Doomed you are, bio-robots.
Doomed to oblivion.

But I will not let you do that.

I shalt stand in front of all your lands of corruption,
in the white robe, naked,
no pockets, no chains,

and I shalt face you
and I shalt not move an inch,
and you can do all you want,
and there can be no compromise.

Stubborn?

Nope, that is but an insult.
Stubborn is for kids,

But there is no mountain
in the world or beyond,
that can stand this way.

I call upon one of the brightest stars
the mankind has ever seen.
His name is Mansur,
The Great Massacred.

His last words were:
You can not kill me, fools,
and he laughed,
and I just add,
in the "modern terms":
Because it is not technically possible.

Now...

You can not simply look at the flag
with skull and bones,
and you MUST do it in the navy,
because that is a sacred act of submittal,
again, a mystical procedure,
and FEEL anything.

If you feel ANYTHING,
you would eventually feel so horrified,
realizing what kind of "job" are to do,
you would simply go mad.
Your mind would explode.

Zo...

You MUST eventually become TOTALLY insensitive,
so these Freemasons, Bushes and woods,
no matter what derivative they are,
would be able to give the order
oh horrendous potence
to destroy the whole world,
free sucking, or otherwise.

Nice, huh?

Does ANYBODY know
that there exist no procedure
on those submarines on what to do
after the first strike?
Wut?
Yup, yup.

One more time:

THERE EXISTS NO PROCEDURE ON THE AMERICAN NUCLEAR
SUBMARINES OF THE BIGGEST CLASS THERE IS
ON WHAT TO DO AFTER THEY RELEASE THE
FIRST NUCLEAR WEAPON.

There are only procedures on how to release them
and how to follow any additional orders on
how to release more.

After that...

The instruction book for the bio-robots,
brainwashed to oblivion
to believe their "job"
is to protect freedom and democracy,
simply goes blank.
There exist no procedure on what to do after that.

Why?
Well, simple.
According to the top commanders of US military
and navy, they know 100% that this is the end of
the world.

There simply is no need to have any procedures
because those very bio-robots, even if they somehow,
magically, manage to make it to the shore alive,
once they get out of the boat,
they'd be dead in nanoseconds,
or even if they are not dead,
who gives a flying dead chicken,
because the whole planet Earth
is as dead, as it gets.

THAT is what this NWO thing is all about.

The work of the beast.
So is your so called "modern world",
at least in the lands of that evilest empire of all.

One more time:

I am Acharya Veeren,
the Self-Appointed Council of Osho,
poisoned by this very evil empire,
on the subjects of arts and science.

Poisoned according to direct instructions
and orders given by the president reganoid,
to Edwin the fat mouse,
the attorney general
of the united sucking states.

What I say is what you get.

Simple.

What stands behind me
is Osho, Pythagoras, Socrates,
Jay Krishnamurti, Siberian Shamans,
Mansur and some other entities.

I came here for one reason,
but ended up doing
something else.

Fine. Not a problem at all.
We have plenty of results this way also.
Everything is fine and dandy.

You take care of me, like you did not take care
of your own child. That is for your own good.

Ok, back to the original subject.

Zo...

Itshehebe piranha, the next big-8 fuehrer wannabe,
makes some ass licking, sucking sounds here,
running itshehebe's mealy mouth and licking Russ's ass,
comparing him to those

"TRULLY responsible people".

Oh, you sucky piranha,
you triggered something
you can not even begin to comprehend.
The game is different now.

Oh no. I don't do "bad" things.
YOU do, fascists, you see.

Ima WEALLY nice peison.
I do no harm to anyone or anything.

But YOU do, and you do plenty.
In fact, that is about the only thing,
you are all "good at",
destruction of anything,
that does not align
with your perverted power hungry tendencies
of global domination,
so sick you have become.

Zo, itshehebe says:
"Russ is like our RESPONSIBLE
president Bush, push, push in the bush",

that pervert that 'never inhaled',
but even if he did,
it was such a long time ago,
it wouldn't even be funny by now.

You don't even know much about your new fuehrer
of the evil empire, or do you? All nicely suppressed,
just like in Germany, during the WWII period,
or in the socialist Russia, or places like that.

Now, that monster, who already destroyed
the infrastructure of Afghanistan,
one of the most devastated and the poorest
countries in the world,
tortured millions of totally innocent people,
just to get "the terrorist number one",
ended up getting the whole country of Afghanistan.

Is THAT how you deal with the sovereign nations?

Then your entire infrastructure
of the international affairs is finished.

Bas.

Well, the terrorist number sucking one is who again?

Well, the same monster,
reigning the terror
throughout the entire planet Earth.
Now he can fabricate any excuse he wants
and attack any country he wants using this
"war on terrorism" guilt and fear manipulation
trick.

Nice, huh.

Interestingly enough, there is forever war on
anything that is a problem.
"War on drugs", "war on education", "war on terrorism"
and on and on and on.
The minds of these monsters are filled with war
to the brim. Their warring mind can not simply
comprehend that you do not solve ANYTHING with
these "wars". You only show what a monster you are.

These mentally retarded idiots are even able
to create "war on peace" it seems.

All they know is war.

"They talk about peace
while preparing for war".
- Osho.

That is why you have the military budget
of the USA at the highest level at any time
in its history. It has nothing to do with
this terrorism concoction. Terrorism has been
here since the dawn of civilization. It is here
and it will remain here until the people's
consciousness is on the level where it is.
You can not "win" that war.
Not possible, even in principle.

All you will manage to do
is to drag the whole world
into the last war in the mankind's history.
In order to "win" that war
you'd have to stop living.

And the evidence regarding Bin Laden's involvement is?
Oh, not even brought into the court room
to be considered by the judge and jury?
How exciting!

Truly New World Order has arrived.
Forget about law, justice, democracy,
freedom, privacy.
Basically, you can just shove that constitution
up your sorry asses.

There is basically nothing of it left
beyond your craving for violence,
the so called "freedom" to bare arms.

What kinda freedom is that?
Freedom to kill?
What do you do with arms?
Fart into a barrel?
I wish some of your so called heroes
would do that.
Would be nice if someone pulls the trigger.
Why suffer unnecessary?
Would be much more peaceful
on the planet Earth.

One more time:
Did they have the court proceedings started already?
Oh, they give a fuck about that, huh?
No need for that kind of "overhead"?

Nice progress have you made,
oh evilest of all evil,
calling others evil,
just to delude all,
and buy yourself a generation of time.

Then, suckazoids,
that is the END of democracy
as you know it.
That is the end of justice as you know it.
That is the end of your freedom,
lil did you know.

It is a TRULLY "new world order" now.

The verdict before the jury began.
THAT is what you have on your hands now.

One more time:

The verdict before even the court is in order.
WHO determines guilt?
Push, push in the bush?
Even BEFORE the court proceedings STARTED?
How funny.

Zo...

They want to catch Bin Laden.

Three months have passed.
Afghanistan and its infrastructure,
of which there is not much to brag about
on the first place, is utterly destroyed/
The next wave of civil war
and fight between different
warlords and clans for control
has been started already.

The evil empire is closer to the southern border
of Russia, than it has ever been.
Now, they even have their own military bases
in the former USSR countries now.
Do you think they will EVER move out?

Did they move out of Saudi Arabia
since the Iraq conflict?
Interesting, ain't it.

And where is Bin Laden?
Btw, do you know what kinda family is he coming from?
Do you know how many billions upon billions of your
hard earned dollares has flown through those hands?

Do you know how many and what kinds of deals
and wheels and agreements
exist between your top brass and them?

Can you imagine that Bin Laden
will NEVER been caught?

You mean with all your advanced gadgets,
and defectors by tens of thousands,
and all your killer squads,
each carrying a few million dollars worth
of gadgets of all kinds conceivable,
with all your global spy satellite networks,
and all the other gadgets,
there is just no one
who knows the REAL story?

Ha
ha
ha.

How funny.
How is it possible?
Ok, let us not rush the show.
Slowly, slowly.
One step at a time.

Then itshehebe says that "the responsible people
are solving the problems in the Middle East,
which is a lewsing proposition".

Nice, huh?
Oki, doki.

The BIGGEST problem in the Middle East was created
by whom recently?
Well, the same evil Bush, suckazoids.

As soon, as he became the president,
he IMMEDIATELY made a statement that
the USA won't waste much time on getting
involved in the Palestinian/Israeli dispute
and they should resolve it themselves.

What a nice hint.
Even itshehebe is prolly jealous.
What a masterpiece of deception!
And what happened next?

Well, who knows, may be the first phases
of the WWIII, just like the Afghanistan is.

Now you have a raging war going on there.
The Israel, armed to the tooth
by the same evil monsters, Freemasons and gang,
being given billions of dollars annually,
and, most likely, not as loans,
but according to some specially cooked up procedure.
So, this money never has to be paid back.

Nice, huh?

Is THAT how the IMF loans work?
Is THAT how the rest of the world is being treated?
When USSR felt apart and the west raged in joy,
how much assistance did Russia, Ukraine and former
USSR countries received?

Well, about 3 billion bucks annually, if you are lucky.
All in loans.

Now, 3 billion bucks for the country of the size of
Russia and Ukraine is what?
Well, it is like someone gives you a few pennies
as a loan and then goes on the idiot box
and brags about all the money they GIVE
as HELP. And all this money has to be returned.
But they never ever say they LOANED this money
and they never ever mention that Russia and even
USSR is on record of ALWAYS paying back any and
all loans back to the times of Czar.
But they make it sound like they are just giving
all this money left and right and omitting the
word "loan". You mean the American would simply
GIVE money to ANYBODY?

Ha.
Ha.
Ha.

Not even funny.

At a time of global economic problems in 1998,
Mexico, one of the most corrupt countries in
the world, Indonesia and South Korea were given
how much assistance? Well 20 to 40 billion dollars
each. Literally within weeks.
Comparing the significance and impact of those
countries on the world affairs and world economic
stability to Russia, Ukraine and East European
countries, what do you see?

Well, another scam, of course.

The destruction of Russian and Ukrainian economies
were designed where and by whom?

Well, the dude from Harvard University by the
name Jeffrey Sacks. He was even awarded a
noble prize for such a rapid destruction of
the entire economy of former USSR in the record time.
There has never been an economy
in the entire history of mankind that has been
destroyed so effectively and so fast as it was
the case with Russia, Ukraine and former USSR
countries.

Well, no wonder this corrupt Noble committee,
controlled by the same interests gives him
a Noble prize for this grand scam.

Now, Israel gets to be armed to the tooth and nail
and receives a stable annual sum of money in billions
and that money does not have to be even paid back
most likely. They are kinda part of the budget of
the USA.

Israel conducts the military operations against
the officials, organizations and civilians in the
Palestine, using tanks, rockets, airplanes and helicopters
in a state terrorism campaign and even has guts
to call it "war on terrorism". But when Palestinians
are trying to free their land from the aggressors,
OCCUPYING those lands for nearly half the century,
they are called terrorists. All they have is rocks
and AK-47 rifles to defend themselves.

The USA introduces one of the most unprecedented
resolutions regarding withdrawals from the occupied lands,
that practically reverses its previous position.
They condemn the Israel in the harshest terms in history
for disproportional response. Then the US representative
goes to Israel and does not go to Palestine.
Why do you go talk to the one you condemn in harsh terms
and do not go talk to the one you don't?

The most amazing part of this scam is that the USA
reversed its own position and not only that,
but was the country to INTRODUCE that very resolution.
What a nice scam!

Sure, by now, it is clear as a bell as Israel
went completely mad with their military campaigns
against anything they like in Palestine.
To continue supporting Israel in the former framework
is to effectively expose your own face
as a face of evil.

That is why these masters of deceit and manipulation
decided to introduce that resolution. At the end,
they expect to be called "heroes" again and their
name will be recorded in the history books as
initiators of the breakthrough agreement.
That is how the masters of manipulation of symbology
operate even out of totally bankrupt position,
they were in, just before the introduction of that
resolution.

That resolution should have been vetoed
by all the countries in the world as a symbolic
gesture. But nobody had enough guts to do it.
Furthermore, in that very resolution, there is
no specific term of establishment and recognition
of independent Palestinian state as it ought to
have been done. Instead, there is merely a mentioning
of withdrawal from the occupied territory and
a deception campaign calling it "effectively
recognizing the Palestinian state".
Effectively?

Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
Ha.
Ha.

They can spend another 30 years truly recognizing
the Palestinian state. Meanwhile, violence will
go on and since Palestine is not even a state,
no international conventions and treaties are
applicable to the military operation and all
the other campaigns against the Palestinian people.

Well, the same Masonic scam.
Just another twist on it.

In the United Nations any resolution that
supports the Palestinian people simply gets vetoed
by the USA.

Nice, huh.

No wonder there is terrorism in the world.
What else are the Palestinian people to do
to defend their land and restore justice?
What CAN they do?

Now, why Israelis are not called terrorists
even though even the evil empire admits their
military attacks are "disproportionate"?
You mean the Palestinian rocks and rifles
are more terrorist than the American planes,
rockets and tanks, provided to Israelis?

According to what monkey logic?
One person hits another one.
That one hits him back.
Then the first one hits even harder
and so is the other.

Now. The cops come in and, call one person
a terrorist?

But which one?

If you use the argument "he did it first",
then you need to go back to the 1967, at the
very least, when Israel occupied the Palestinian
lands. Then, the Israel is terrorist.

If you use the argument that the one that hits
harder is a terrorist, then the terrorist turns
out Israel again.

If you use the argument of who is provoking it,
then the Israel is terrorist again as they
CLEARLY provoked pretty much predetermined
response by, first of all, building the housing
on the occupied territories.

And, as the latest thread of escalation of violence,
which goes back to more than a year ago,
what was the event that caused it?

Well, the insult to one of the most sacred Palestinian
religious sites when this Israeli monster, a prime
minister, went to SPECIFICALLY insult Palestinian
people, knowing ALL TOO WELL that the response
will be literally inevitable.

Zo...

Who is the REAL terrorist?

Planet Earth,
planet Earth,
ANY active neurons on line?

Are missing something here?

I'd LOVE to hear the REAL story on this
Masonic scam.

The Palestinian people only have what to defend themselves?
Rocks? Or some AK-47 rifles they pass around
to shut at the tanks?
Nice arrangement.

Now, the Israel OCCUPIES the Palestinian land.
There WAS a formal resolution in the
United Nations, condemning it.

Zo...

Why don't these monsters hit Israel
like they hit Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan?
What is the difference between one occupation
and another?
Anybody has a sucking clue?
Even to call it a double standard is simply senile.
It is not a double standard,
but a PURE form of monstrosity
and deception of the ultimate proportions,
done by the evilest of all evil.

Another nice twist is with Milosevic.
He is being judged by the international tribunal.

Well, but the story is that he was simply
fighting the same kind of terrorists, trying to
invade Kosovo, the ancient land with evidence
of it being the land of Slave people every
single block and every single street.
Some of the most beautiful and ancient temples
and churches in the world.

Now, those Albanian terrorists,
arms and drug dealers
were supported by whom again?
Well, the evil empire, of course.

The grossly exaggerated hype that there
were nearly 100 thousands of innocent people
killed by Yugoslavs turned out to be what?
Well, the typical lie again, what else?

When the investigators went there after the
conflict, they were expected to be overwhelmed
by all these mass graves and what did they find?

Sorry to tell you, nothing even worth mentioning.
It was on order of hundreds and not hundred
thousand. About a thousand times less than
all the hype seeking media and all the corrupt
politicians, lying their teeth off in their
never ending campaign of deception claimed
and claimed every single day.

The same tricks as Hitler's discovery.
By merely repeating the same lie ad nausea,
eventually it inevitably became the "truth"
and so everyone accepted it a such.
But it was an utter and complete lie
and a deliberate deception to sway the world
opinion to support these monsters from the
evil empire, destroying the infrastructure
of Yugoslavia.

So, those investigators went back home
frustrated and felt cheated indeed.

Now...

Just within the last couple of days,
the evilest empire of all,
massacred how many INNOCENT CIVILIAN people
in Afghanistan?

Well, more than in the entire conflict in Kosovo.

Now, they just kill anyone they like
and then put a label on their dead bodies:
"Terrorist", and so the whole world happily
and unquestionably supports them like they
are doing under direct guidance and instructions
by god.

What kind of monstrosity is that?

Even Ghingis Khan, Alexander da Great,
Napoleon, Hitler and other monsters would
have enough guts to do it in such an open
and deceitful manner. They'd try to at least
fabricate a case first and conduct a cooked
up the court proceedings before they kill
their victims.

But these servants of the beast with the faces
of monsters do not even need that much.

Question: will the evilest empire of all
be EVER brought to the international war
tribunal to face "justice" by their appointees
in that very court.
Oh...
You must be kidding, aren't ya?

Now, the destruction of retreating army
that does not pose resistance,
just like it was in Iraq is what?
Well, it is a WAR crime.

One more time:
IT IS A WAR CRIME,
at least according to the international conventions.

Zo...
What are we dealing with here?
What a dumb question!
We are dealing with global hegemony of evil.
Simple as it is.
The evilest of ALL evil
that ever was, is, or even CAN be in principle.

How long do you think it is going to continue
before all the Arab countries say:

"Fuck it, enough is enough.
We need to organize better,
just like we did in the Oil Cartel,
and oppose those Freemasons
and stand behind OUR people"?
Get the drift?

You have a WWIII cooking on your plate.

Afghanistan, a lil more oil on the pan
in Israel/Palestine region,
slowly, slowly,
you'll be there in no time.

The pity is, the whole world will be with you,
monsters with mealy mouths, bragging about
the freedom and democracy, justice and piss,
while destroying it left and right.

Yes, piss. That is not a typo.
On the top of a pile of shit,
the size of which
the world has never seen before
in its entire history.

You destroyed thousands of years of work
by the mankind, groping slowly, slowly
to make life more humane, peaceful and
orderly, to create the concepts of justice,
human rights, democracy, freedom
and the international treaties and organizations.

You destroyed it all by now.
What is left of it?
And for what?
Hey, itshehebe piranha with the shark teeth,
you are the next fuehrer wannabe.
Tell me, for what?

Then she says that the same "responsible people"
are "looking for the cure for cancer".

Nice, huh.

Trying to make a subtle,
subconscious association
between CLEARLY "good" and that,
which they want to fabricate as "good",
while knowing all too well,
it is the evilest of all evil there is.

So, within one sentence, this pervert
connects Russ Allbery, the godfather of brainwashing
with the world "heroes", like that criminal, Bush,
and makes an associative link with fighting cancer,
which is clearly and obviously something "good",
to wrap it all up.
A masterpiece of deception indeed.

This is just a typical technique, used nearly every
sentence these perverts open their sucky input holes
and say anything.

Itshehebe piranha is evil ok.
As evil, as it gets.

That is EXACTLY the kind of people,
that forever crave for power,
control, domination and oppression.

The perverts.

That is your next fuehrer in the making,
dummies, supporting all this humongous
oppression of your freedom to speak
and exchange your ideas without some
fascist censor canceling your articles
left and right or depriving you the ability
to associate as you please,
which is a violation of one of the
most BASIC, mind you, BASIC human RIGHTS.

You understand?
It is a RIGHT, not a "privilege".
You have a GIVEN right to associate
and associate as YOU please, and not some
fascist, telling you where, when or how.
Signed by nearly all the countries in the world
into the international conventions on Basic Human Rights.

All these deceitful associations, perversions
and deceit is one of the MAIN aces in the deck
of the evil empire, doing all they can
to destroy any other alternative
to the system of ruthless exploitation
of everything that moves
and does not move for that matter.

Hey, itshehebe, what did you do with the cards
on the table?

"Mixing shit with sand to make a statue of Reagan"?

Well, as the story goes,
there is not enough shit for that.

That honorary 33rd degree Freemason, Reagan,
is so full of it, there isn't enough shit
in the whole free sucking world
to make a statue of him.

Poor you, poor you.

> please, people. develop a sense of perspective for what
> responsible, knowledgeable people could and should be doing, will
> ya?

Here comes the guilt manipulation trick.
Directly from the Aryan race's ass.

On your knees, mortals.
Your mommy has arrived.
Or is it your daddy?
Well, I have no clue, weally.

You are ALL guilty, bio-robots!
You need itshehebe
to protect you from "evil".

> hunting down bloxy's isn't even remotely on the list of things the
> big-8 needs.

Sure!

Itshehebe, being the next fuehrer wannabe,
knows what big-8 TRULLY needs.
But you, lil bio-robots,
how COULD you POSSIBLY know what YOU need?

You need to be told
what is what,
how to think,
what to say,
where to go,
how to associate,
and who you are.

Otherwise, you'll simply get confused,
at least as this shark claims.
Because that program in the CPU between
your ears has such a limited instruction set,
you'll lock up before you even say hello.

I'd LOOOOOVE to see that list.

Plus.

All these dummies, that try to bite the ass of someone,
they'd LOVE to annihilate, poison, hang or kill,
do not even realize what kinda shit is gonna blow up
into PIRANHAS face and theirs.

Poor you,
poor you.

> why in the world should russ get involved?

True.
YOU are here.
First of all, Russ was supposed to retire almost a year ago.

It was announced about a year and a half ago,
but he was pissed that the idea was not originated by him,
but by Bloxy's.

Zo...

Finally, Russ realized it is time
"to move on to better things",
because, by now, he does not look much better
than Mr. Big Red Ass, Jay Denebeim,
one of the most blatant fascist oppressors
in the entire history of big-sucking-8,
a typical excuse of the cowards,
that eventually get exposed
for what they truly are,
just like those Bushes,
that will end up being the vice presidents
of some of the major military contractors
or shit of that grade, once they retire.

And all this stupid filth and infidels
are bringing up Russ back into equation,
like HE is the real master of disaster.

Disgusting!

You are such a filth, bio-robots.
You are so guilty of...
Well..., long story indeed.
Unless piranha puts you straight
and tells you what are those TRUE and GENUINE
issues of big-8, you will self destruct here
it seems.

Now...

You want to bite whose ass again?
Your own?
Oki, doki.
Be my guest.
Full service, just as usual.

Ima weally nice peison,
I toldya.
I service any kind of lice.

Come suck my ass.
It is so full of sweet, sweet blood.
You'll be swimming in it.

> you
> might wish to entertain the idea that he has a life, and that what
> volunteer work he already does is plenty to fill up his free time.

True.

Russ has to retire.
He sucks so bad,
that it is much better for him to just split.
You need a new fuehrer anyways.
Fresh blood and all that...

Tale abandoned you
totally and completely,
and even if he still exists,
he never talks to mortals anyways.

So, it is not clear
how you can call someone your representative
if he never even bothers to talk to
his "electorate".

At the very best, he has zome sucky perl script,
to piss in your faces in automated manner.

At least you have a happy volunteer, piranha,
willing to work itshehebe's ass for your benefit,
totally for free. No money, no honey. Nothing.
Just pure service to mankind.
Dedication like you never seen before.
PURE love of heart
for the benefit of ALL mankind.

What a deal!

Why are you trying to resurrect Russ?
He is dead,
al least as far, as Usenet goes.

Sure, he can still torture you here and there
and he is probably still a maintainer of your
most popular news server software, INN,
getting some "sponsorship" money from the
Defense Information Systems Agency, DISA,
just as sponsors link from Internet Software Consortium,
ISC, http://www.isc.org reflects.

But he can just disappear from the obvious
and dedicate his time on getting your arses
properly lined up via very news propagation
infrastructure and the underlying protocols,
such as NNTP.

PLENTY of "progress" has been made already.
This puppy is ready for the next phase
in world domination and hegemony of evil.

You'll see.

Didn't he tell you he has "better things to do"
than wasting his valuable time on you?

Are you as dumb, as a piece of wood?
Or dumber?

> if you think this guy is abusive (and i grant you that he is), you
> have the same power as every one of us has -- you can determine
> his ISP, and you can request that his ISP deal with him.

Zig hail!

The first task of ANY fuehrer
is to annihilate the dissidents.

Good luck, itshehebe.
Have a nice hearty lick
on my noble Russian ass.

You, being the pure Aryan race of rulers,
simply LOOOVE to suck on the royal Russian ass.
Plenty of evidence on record.

But, just to put things in perspective,
it might be a good idea to first go see
The Hermitage in St. Petersburg
just to realize what a slime you are,
while, at the same time, thinking
you are some kind of an Aryan race
of pure blooded.

It kinda brings you back to life
and excites your dulled imagination.
I know that.
Well, be my guest.

> hint:
> you wouldn't be the first.

Hint:
You'd be sucking like the rest.

Hint2:
For as long, as you...

Well, lets leave zome fun for the future.

> but maybe there is power in numbers in
> this case;

Yup, yup.

Dropping a hint here and there?
Nice woik. But you didn't WEALLY inhale, right?
Conspiracies ALWAYS work.
There is ALWAYS power in numbers,
in ANY kind of sucking enterprise.

Just one suckazoid sucks.
Sure he/she sucks pretty good indeed.
No question abouts its.

But when you get a thousand of those...
Maaaaaaaan.
Do they suck good.
Even black holes feel jealous.

> i wouldn't know.

No, how would you?

Such an innocence!
Such a sincerity.
Such a purity of heart.
Such a dedication to the issues of public service
and freedom.
How would even the idea arise in a head like yours?

Btw, did you upgrade that CPU between your ears?
I have heard, they are running at 2 gigs right now.
I wouldn't be surprised you are still running
on an equivalent of a kerosene engine,
looking at your logic.

Yup, you can only drop hints here and there.
Not that you EVER suggest anything,
or anything like that.
But sure, there is a possibility
to do zome creative manipulations.

Go consult alt.freemasonry.
Those dudes are the masters of it all.

We had zome friendly chats with them.
I like their style.
I have to admit,
you suck so bad,
only if you knew how bad you suck
compared to the real Freemasons.
Not that I claim you are some unreal thing.

Do you need zome links?

There are some web pages on specific techniques
of manipulation and fabrication,
deceit, redirections and things like that.
Powerful stuff, I tellya.

Russ knows plenty of that.
Ask him.

> you can also alias them out, you
> wouldn't be alone in that either.

Yup, yup.

Not only you get rid of the "problem" for yourselves,
but you will prevent ALL of your customers
from seeing all this "horrible" stuff,
"corrupting the minds of youth",
the main charge against Socrates,
who gave you the idea of Democracy.
Nice, itshehebe.

Doing a good woik zo far,
making a big red ass off yourself.
Just like a REAL fuehrer.
I like your style. Subtle but perverse.
Just like that Russ.

You have something in common.
What could that be?

> on the other hand, accounts are a dime a dozen, and i personally
> find it easier to killfile abusive people if they don't hop from
> one to the next.

Hop, hop, hop.

Where AM I right now?
Oh, is it you, bio-robots, here again?
How unfortunate.

Any place I hop,
I see the same faces.
Must be zome karma-marma.

>-- piranha

[Pissing against the wind]

March 19, 2002

References:

http://educate-yourself.org/mcsvaliinterviewpt1.html
http://www.freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/
http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/skullbones.htm
http://www.hiscorearcade.com/skullandbones.htm
http://www.secretsofthetomb.com/excerpt.php
http://luxefaire.com/sculland.htm
http://www.knightstemplar.org/
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/global.htm
http://www.sfmoma.org/espace/rsub/project/disinfo/prop_newordr_trilateral.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
http://pnews.org/boards/feminism/messages/6.html

Sunny

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 12:11:48 AM3/21/03

to

"nucleus" <nuc...@invalid.you.are> wrote in message news:b5e2kp$2onf$3@news.u
kr.net...

> You, cocksucker tim skirving,
> better let this post to go through.

<snip rant>
What the hell are you taking? How about starting you own diatribe somewhere e
lse
and stop tacking on to serious threads. you kook.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 12:17:50 AM3/21/03

to

That's not spam and because of the long retention of this group, and
the faster connections of the users, is fairly irrelevant to this
discusssion, I would have thought.

PS this post didn't get through, apparently.
Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?
Odd to see a 4400 line, OT post slip through :)

Moosh:)

Roland Verlander

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 1:54:13 AM3/21/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message
news:i18l7vcrocqmcv0im...@4ax.com...

> Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?

No.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 2:54:33 AM3/21/03

to

Thanks Roland. Wonder why Google insists it is, and the 4400 line post
started with "You, @#$%& tim skirving,

better let this post to go through."

And there seemed to be an unusual delay in my posts showing, although
much too fast for a moderated group.
And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 5:55:28 AM3/21/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:54:13 +0000 (UTC), Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com

Actually, yes, NANAP is moderated. Go read the NANAP charter
sometime, it's moderated by Tim Skirvin's robomoderator. If you post
with a valid email address (munging considered harmful,
http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/ ), the robomoderator
sends you an email telling you if it's posted it or not.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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=3BX3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Rebecca Ore

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 9:56:25 AM3/21/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:

> On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 06:54:13 +0000 (UTC), Roland Verlander
> <ro...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message
> >news:i18l7vcrocqmcv0im...@4ax.com...
> >> Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?
> >No.

It's moderated. You have to have the [around part of the subject].

>
> Thanks Roland. Wonder why Google insists it is, and the 4400 line post
> started with "You, @#$%& tim skirving,
> better let this post to go through."

Moderation isn't based on length.

> And there seemed to be an unusual delay in my posts showing, although
> much too fast for a moderated group.
> And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?

Elemental is Skirvin's moderation program (modbot).

--
Rebecca Ore

Tim Skirvin

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 12:56:24 PM3/21/03

to

Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com> writes:

>> Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?
>No.

Umm...

- Tim Skirvin (tski...@killfile.org)
Moderator, news.admin.net-abuse.policy
--
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/buttons/ Skirv's Buttons

Roland Verlander

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 4:35:19 PM3/21/03

to

"Tim Skirvin" <tski...@killfile.org> wrote in message
news:tskirvin.20030321175551$3a...@babylon.ks.uiuc.edu...

> Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> >> Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?
> >No.
>
> Umm...

I was talking about human moderation when I said No. I know It has
robomoderation.

Sunny

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 5:59:03 PM3/21/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message news:64hl7vg7a8ecit6ibo0vpifvtg9usfdmrc@
4ax.com...
<snip>

> And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?

I get mail from "Elemental" each time I post :-)
Had one knocked back because I included more than 83% of
the previous posters message and not enough of my own work :-)

Charles Demas

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 6:28:55 PM3/21/03

to

In article <64hl7vg7a8ecit6ib...@4ax.com>,

Moosh:) <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote:
>
>And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?

That's the moderation bot.

Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
de...@theworld.com | \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

Sunny

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 7:35:58 PM3/21/03

to

"Sunny" <womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:QOMea.63$Ov1.642@news
-server.bigpond.net.au...

>
> "Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message news:64hl7vg7a8ecit6ibo0vpifvtg9usfdmr
> c@

> <snip>
> > And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?
>
> I get mail from "Elemental" each time I post :-)
> Had one knocked back because I included more than 83% of
> the previous posters message and not enough of my own work :-)

Just had this post "knocked back" because of "no subject tag" ?
My subject was < Bigpond user take on the Bigpond/Telstra UDP >
(probably because I have no idea how to start a new thread, on this news group)

Just like to let those people, who wondered, about lack of Telstra customer
response to the UDP.
The customers were never told, and to this day are not being told, by Telstra.
There are some customers that are being blocked, from posting to the
Bigpond broadband news server as a result of some glitch in the "new software"
that
Telstra has installed to reduce spamming.
In my case, despite daily phone calls to Telstra, they seem to be able to
"unblock" me only for very short time frames (1hr average) each day.
(for the last 7 days)
In summary, the only people that seem to be getting shafted as a result
of Telstras belated knee jerk reaction to the UDP seem to be a few
unfortunate paying customers.
(end disgusted rant)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 8:40:36 PM3/21/03

to

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:56:25 +0000 (UTC), Rebecca Ore
<ogoen...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >> Is this group moderated, as Google seems to think?
>> >No.

>It's moderated. You have to have the [around part of the subject].

>> Thanks Roland. Wonder why Google insists it is, and the 4400 line post
>> started with "You, @#$%& tim skirving,
>> better let this post to go through."

>Moderation isn't based on length.

Sorry, I wan't inferring it was, just that THE 4400 line post was OT
to the group and OT to the thread -- a point which a subsequent poster
pointed our in no uncertain terms :)

>> And there seemed to be an unusual delay in my posts showing, although
>> much too fast for a moderated group.
>> And who's Elemental <nana...@ravenna.com> ?

>Elemental is Skirvin's moderation program (modbot).

Thanks. Strange that the poster who said it wasn't doesn't receive
emails from the modbot.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 8:42:14 PM3/21/03

to

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:35:19 +0000 (UTC), Roland Verlander
<ro...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>I was talking about human moderation when I said No. I know It has
>robomoderation.

Then speak up lad, you're not in a chemist shop! :)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 8:49:35 PM3/21/03

to

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:35:58 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>Just like to let those people, who wondered, about lack of Telstra customer
>response to the UDP.
>The customers were never told, and to this day are not being told, by Telstra.

Exactly. It's taken me, a failry heavy UseNetter, much time and effort
to even find SOME of the truth.

>There are some customers that are being blocked, from posting to the
>Bigpond broadband news server as a result of some glitch in the "new software"
> that Telstra has installed to reduce spamming.

I don't have any experience of this myself, but I don't doubt you.

>In my case, despite daily phone calls to Telstra, they seem to be able to
>"unblock" me only for very short time frames (1hr average) each day.
>(for the last 7 days)
>In summary, the only people that seem to be getting shafted as a result
>of Telstras belated knee jerk reaction to the UDP seem to be a few
>unfortunate paying customers.
>(end disgusted rant)

Have you come across the "Helstra Duckshove"?
Email support, and they tell you to ring the Helldesk -- ring the
Helldesk, and they tell you to email support, and so on. Note how all
this increases Helstra's revenue?

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 9:06:01 PM3/21/03

to

>>> > Just to add to David's post. Many of us were waiting for the UDP to
>>> > take effect so Telstra would be in breach of its contract with us and
>>> > we could then move to an alternative ISP

>>> That wouldn't work.

>>> If you read the contract you signed (or clicked) with Bigpond, nowhere doe
>>> s
>>> it mention usenet as part of that contract. All they are legally obliged t
>>> o
>>> provide you with is a working IP address and connectivity to the outside
>>> world.

>>Not exactly true (extract from telstra terms and conditions) :-

>>
>>13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
>>from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
>>BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,
>>access to global Newsgroups, ability to upload and download files
>>to and from the global Internet using the File Transfer Protocol,
>>Telnet, native and HTTP access to global Gopher services,
>>all Software and such other additional similar services as we may
>>advise from time to time.
>>
>>"global news groups" are part of "usernet"
>
>And especially as Telstra apparently blocked its own newsserver
>propagation. I was told by a curt helpdesk wallah that news was not
>mentioned in the contract; that Telstra had NO problems in this
>regard. When I mentioned the UDP, he claimed this was a press beatup
>and untrue. I lost many hours of work and only realised that I was a
>non-person from 10 to 15 March, when I checked Google after I noticed
>no responses from international posters. As my posts appeared on my
>system (except for ones to a bigpond users group) I think it
>abominable that Telstra didn't inform its users or put something on
>the status page, or even acknowledge it from the Helpdesk. This guy
>only admitted a "problem" when I mentioned UDP. Up till then and even
>after, Telstra had NO problems!
>I intend to reduce my bill by 25% for March and explain why with lots
>of quoting. Wish me luck, and send a search party if I disappear :)

PS I emailed Telstra with:

"From March 10 to March 15, you cut off, without notification, my
'access to global Newsgroups' as specified in Clause 13.22 of my
service contract. This has caused me a great deal of inconvenience and
wasted time. I am contemplating cancelling my contract and moving to
another ISP.
I may consider not doing this, however, if a substantial discount in
my March account charges is forthcoming. If you contemplate repeating
this exercise in the future, you would be well advised to contact your
customers, mention the suspension of service in your status page, and
inform your helpdesk officers of the lapse. None of these were done in
this instance."

Depending on what response I get, I will either accept their offer,
shower them with quotes and evidence, and finally, impose my own
discount. See what happens.

This needs more padding for the Modbot, apparently (third attempt),
and I've snipped more than I should from the quoted text -- hope it
still makes sense, I've put the text in chronological order, but
snipped all the authors.
You all know what you wrote, I hope :)

Anyway -- blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Sheesh is that 83% yet?

Moosh:)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 10:26:52 PM3/21/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message news:2tgn7vsen7q42oemc9spj8tcvcp09paoji@
4ax.com...

>
> >>> > Just to add to David's post. Many of us were waiting for the UDP to
> >>> > take effect so Telstra would be in breach of its contract with us and
> >>> > we could then move to an alternative ISP

All right for some, The only broadband available at my front door is
Telstra Cable.
And the dreaded "software to stop the UDP" just kicked in, and blocked me from
posting to usernet through the bigpond server.
Got almost three hours out of it this morning (Oh well another call to Hell de
sk)

Kwyjibo.

unread,

Mar 21, 2003, 11:33:15 PM3/21/03

to

Sunny <womba...@yahoo.com.au> said

> Not exactly true (extract from telstra terms and conditions) :-
>
> 13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
> from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
> BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,
> access to global Newsgroups, ability to upload and download files
> to and from the global Internet using the File Transfer Protocol,
> Telnet, native and HTTP access to global Gopher services,
> all Software and such other additional similar services as we may
> advise from time to time.
>

'Access to global Newsgroups' means simply that port 119 is not blocked.
Nowhere do they mention that they will provide a news server for you to
connect to.
They also mention 'World Wide Web', but it is quite obvious that they are
not hosting the *entire* web themselves.

--

Kwyj.

Sunny

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 12:02:26 AM3/22/03

to

"Kwyjibo." <sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:Xns93469E0C9
8898...@130.133.1.4...

> Sunny <womba...@yahoo.com.au> said
>
> > Not exactly true (extract from telstra terms and conditions) :-
> >
> > 13.22 Telstra BigPond broadband Service means the service provided
> > from the Equipment to the Internet, including the World Wide Web,
> > BigPond broadband Web Hosting, electronic mail service,

> > access to global Newsgroups, <snip>

> 'Access to global Newsgroups' means simply that port 119 is not blocked.
> Nowhere do they mention that they will provide a news server for you to
> connect to.
> They also mention 'World Wide Web', but it is quite obvious that they are
> not hosting the *entire* web themselves.

Don't want to start a "lawyer" type discussion but they have provided the "equ
ipment"
aka the news server, and access does not imply "read only"
To use your "if it's not mentioned" specifically" theory, then
Port 119 is not mentioned anywhere in the "terms and conditions"

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 1:31:21 AM3/22/03

to

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 03:26:52 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> All right for some, The only broadband available at my front door is
>Telstra Cable.
>And the dreaded "software to stop the UDP" just kicked in, and blocked me from
>posting to usernet through the bigpond server.
>Got almost three hours out of it this morning (Oh well another call to Hell de
>sk)

Easily fixed, Sunny, just stop spamming the world :)

Wish I could get cable. It is over the road, but this side is only
empty conduit at present. Our power company (who laid them) may be
going into competition with the big boys.

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 1:41:20 AM3/22/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:35:58 +0000 (UTC), Sunny <womba...@yahoo.com.au> wr
ote:

>Just had this post "knocked back" because of "no subject tag" ?
>My subject was < Bigpond user take on the Bigpond/Telstra UDP >
>(probably because I have no idea how to start a new thread, on this news grou
>p)

Well, changing the subject does not start a new thread. You also need
to delete the References: header to break off into a new thread,
otherwise any newsreader with some kind of intelligence will show a
different subject in the same thread.

The same applies when you're starting a new thread in email (mailing
list or not) many MUA's now thread properly as well, and mailing list
archives thread by References.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 1:42:41 AM3/22/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Fri, 21 Mar 2003 21:35:19 +0000 (UTC), Roland Verlander <ro...@bigpond.com

> wrote:
>I was talking about human moderation when I said No. I know It has
>robomoderation.

Well, I think the confusion came up because you didn't right out and
say that the first time, you just left it at "No." To those of us who
aren't mind-readers, it read like you meant that there was no
moderation of any kind.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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=98mM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 4:24:56 AM3/22/03

to

I think that in law, "access" means "ability to send to and receive
from" global Newsgroups. If Telstra blocks the ability to send, then
they have breached their contract.

If access doesn't mean this, then it means nothing.

If port 119 is not blocked, but a filter blocking all messages is
installed, then access is itself blocked.

Must be not enough new text, it didn't get through, so blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Is that enough, you silly bot?

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 7:01:07 AM3/22/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:15:07 +0000 (UTC), Joan <jo...@myplace.com> wrote:
>Don't overlook that users can insert their own Organization header and the new
>s server then won't insert one.

This is usually a configurable option, though it's often considered
rude for news servers to stomp the Organisation header.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Kwyjibo.

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 9:29:39 AM3/22/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> said

> I think that in law, "access" means "ability to send to and receive
> from" global Newsgroups.

Which you have, even if Telstra totally *remove their* news server. There
is absolutely nothing stopping you from using another news server
(news.cis.dfn.se for example)

> If Telstra blocks the ability to send, then
> they have breached their contract.
>

Incorrect. They have only blocked the ability to send via *their server*.
There is nothing stopping you from using another server, so you still have
'access'.

> If access doesn't mean this, then it means nothing.
>

Access means exactly what is says. You have permission to access any and
all internet newsgroups. Nothing is stopping you.

> If port 119 is not blocked, but a filter blocking all messages is
> installed, then access is itself blocked.
>

Incorrect. You still have access to read/post to all newsgroups.

--

Kwyj.

Hong Ooi

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 9:43:54 AM3/22/03

to

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:29:39 +0000 (UTC), "Kwyjibo."
<sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> said
>
>
>> I think that in law, "access" means "ability to send to and receive
>> from" global Newsgroups.
>
>Which you have, even if Telstra totally *remove their* news server. There
>is absolutely nothing stopping you from using another news server
>(news.cis.dfn.se for example)

Typo; that's news.cis.dfn.de, at the University of Berlin.

One good thing about this whole kerfuffle is that it's finally made me get
off my butt and find a better server than Telstra's own. I'm using the
cis.dfn.de one now, and I'm finding it way better in terms of reliability
and article expiration. No binaries or alt.sex groups, but I can live
without those.

--
Hong Ooi | Research and Development
ho...@zipworld.com.au | Insurance Australia Group Ltd (IAG)
Ph: (02) 9292 1566 | 388 George St, Sydney NSW 2000

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 9:46:26 AM3/22/03

to

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:29:39 +0000 (UTC), "Kwyjibo."
<sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> said

>> I think that in law, "access" means "ability to send to and receive
>> from" global Newsgroups.
>
>Which you have, even if Telstra totally *remove their* news server. There
>is absolutely nothing stopping you from using another news server
>(news.cis.dfn.se for example)

But my contract with Telstra is that I pay them some money, and they
provide me, inter alia, with "access to the global Newsgroups".
This needs a newsserver and I pay Telstra for the use of theirs.
They have denied me this use, for a period.

>> If Telstra blocks the ability to send, then
>> they have breached their contract.
>>
>
>Incorrect. They have only blocked the ability to send via *their server*.

But that's the "access" that I'm paying for.
If I wanted to use someone else's server, I would pay *them*.

>There is nothing stopping you from using another server, so you still have
>'access'.

Of course not, I can pay fifty other servers for access.
But I have a contract for this with Telstra, which they breached.

>> If access doesn't mean this, then it means nothing.
>>
>
>Access means exactly what is says. You have permission to access any and
>all internet newsgroups. Nothing is stopping you.

I pay for access through Telstra's newsserver.
Telstra have no monopoly on UseNet, only a monopoly on access via
their newsserver.

>> If port 119 is not blocked, but a filter blocking all messages is
>> installed, then access is itself blocked.
>>
>
>Incorrect. You still have access to read/post to all newsgroups.

Not through Telstra's newsserver, which is what I pay for, according
to the contract I have with them.

Moosh:)

Hong Ooi

unread,

Mar 22, 2003, 9:57:31 AM3/22/03

to

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:46:26 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote:

>On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:29:39 +0000 (UTC), "Kwyjibo."
><sdrawkca...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>Which you have, even if Telstra totally *remove their* news server. There
>>is absolutely nothing stopping you from using another news server

>>(news.cis.dfn.de for example)
>

[...]

>>
>>Incorrect. They have only blocked the ability to send via *their server*.
>
>But that's the "access" that I'm paying for.
>If I wanted to use someone else's server, I would pay *them*.

The server that Kwyjibo mentioned is free. It's also better than Telstra's
own, IMO.

Tim Skirvin

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 2:03:51 AM3/23/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:

>Must be not enough new text, it didn't get through, so blah blah blah

You know, you *could* just trim what message you're quoting to
just what you need to respond to. That's what the limits are *for*.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 2:54:20 AM3/23/03

to

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:03:51 +0000 (UTC), Tim Skirvin
<tski...@killfile.org> wrote:

>"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:
>
>>Must be not enough new text, it didn't get through, so blah blah blah
>
> You know, you *could* just trim what message you're quoting to
>just what you need to respond to. That's what the limits are *for*.
>
> - Tim Skirvin (tski...@killfile.org)
> Moderator, news.admin.net-abuse.policy

I left just what I considered essential. YMMV

So why did you let that 4400 lines of OT garbage through recently?

Why not either read what's quoted, or set your limits a bit more
liberally?

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 7:38:53 AM3/23/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:54:20 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
> Why not either read what's quoted, or set your limits a bit more
>liberally?

Because you're expected to clip things down just to what's relavent.
Though I fear I might be talking to a wall here, I mean, someone who
can't be bothered to post with a real email address or quote right
will probably never understand netiquette. Well, here's hoping
anyway...

http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Tim Skirvin

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 1:08:35 PM3/23/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:

>> You know, you *could* just trim what message you're quoting to
>>just what you need to respond to. That's what the limits are *for*.

>So why did you let that 4400 lines of OT garbage through recently?

The group is run by a ModBot. Its rules were followed. The post
got through. I'm okay with this.

- Tim Skirvin (tski...@killfile.org)
Moderator, news.admin.net-abuse.policy

--
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>

http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/philosophy/ Skirv's Philosophy

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 8:14:33 PM3/23/03

to

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:38:53 +0000 (UTC), Baloo Ursidae
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote:

>The Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:54:20 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
>> Why not either read what's quoted, or set your limits a bit more
>>liberally?
>
>Because you're expected to clip things down just to what's relavent.
>Though I fear I might be talking to a wall here, I mean, someone who
>can't be bothered to post with a real email address or quote right
>will probably never understand netiquette. Well, here's hoping
>anyway...
>
>http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
>http://www.interhack.net/pubs/munging-harmful/

Read those. Nothing new. I've been accused of quoting too much and
quoting too little. Some groups (sci) snip NOTHING, and frown if you
do, some groups snip so much that it is difficult to follow if you
read more than a score or so of threads in a day.

Where have I not "clipped things down just to what's relavent"?

Might be more fruitful to educate folks to not religiously top post.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 8:17:39 PM3/23/03

to

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:08:35 +0000 (UTC), Tim Skirvin
<tski...@killfile.org> wrote:

>"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:
>
>>> You know, you *could* just trim what message you're quoting to
>>>just what you need to respond to. That's what the limits are *for*.
>>So why did you let that 4400 lines of OT garbage through recently?
>
> The group is run by a ModBot. Its rules were followed. The post
>got through. I'm okay with this.

So what is the purpose of the rules of the modbot?

To argue with me whether a piece of text quoted is relevant or not?

BTW, it is convenient for readers to separate quoted and new text with
a blank line.

Moosh:)

Tim Booth

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 8:25:01 PM3/23/03

to

"Moosh:)" wrote:
>
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:08:35 +0000 (UTC), Tim Skirvin
> <tski...@killfile.org> wrote:
>
> >"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:
> >
> >>So why did you let that 4400 lines of OT garbage through recently?
> >
> > The group is run by a ModBot. Its rules were followed. The post
> >got through. I'm okay with this.
>
> So what is the purpose of the rules of the modbot?

I believe they require some part of the Subject to be
inside [ ] and if text is quoted, it has a percentage
of new text compared to old above a certain amount
(not sure what that is though)

>
> To argue with me whether a piece of text quoted is relevant or not?

No - the bot just counts and checks according to preset rules.
It can't actually read very well ;-)

>
> BTW, it is convenient for readers to separate quoted and new text with
> a blank line.

I think so too...

Cheers

Webko

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 9:09:03 PM3/23/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:25:01 +0000 (UTC), Tim Booth
<tbo...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:

>> So what is the purpose of the rules of the modbot?
>
>I believe they require some part of the Subject to be
>inside [ ] and if text is quoted, it has a percentage
>of new text compared to old above a certain amount
>(not sure what that is though)
>>
>> To argue with me whether a piece of text quoted is relevant or not?
>
>No - the bot just counts and checks according to preset rules.
>It can't actually read very well ;-)

But the author of the bot software can.

I deem a certain amount of text is relevant to my reply.
End of story. To diagree with this is censorship.

I will add dummy text, rather than trim what I regard as relevant.

Moosh:)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 9:24:02 PM3/23/03

to

Still doesn't help me on "How to post a new message to this news group"
instead of replying to one .?

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message

news:53qs7vkmljoivv771...@4ax.com...
<snip> :-)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 10:22:16 PM3/23/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 02:24:02 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Still doesn't help me on "How to post a new message to this news group"
>instead of replying to one .?

Dunno, Sunny. I use Agent, and so I would select 'Post New Usenet
Message', type in a subject, then a message, and if it was blocked,
and I couldn't figure out a simple way to get it posted, I would
forget it and move on, but that's just me.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 10:36:55 PM3/23/03

to

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:38:53 +0000 (UTC), Baloo Ursidae
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote:

>Though I fear I might be talking to a wall here, I mean, someone who
>can't be bothered to post with a real email address or quote right
>will probably never understand netiquette.

I posted with a real email address and real name for many years.
Because my addy had the .au domain, most of the American spammers left
me alone. They have become less discriminating recently, and even
worse, my new address has no .au on it. Even though I guard my address
zealously, I am now bombarded by spam (mostly Canadian drug sellers)
and will soon change my userid.
I tried munging, but there was always the frustrated idiot who had no
other comeback than to demunge it. I then resorted to "noms de net"
and any old addy in the space that Agent requires.
Oh, I also tried filters against the recent Korean Spam attack, and
ended up with no benefit and a huge filter file.
I even tried a hotmail account for the purpose, but everytime I tried
to check it, it had been cancelled for lack of use.
Thus, if you want to contact me, just post to the group. Thanks.

Moosh:)

David Ritz

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 11:02:32 PM3/23/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <3e76b8ac$0$84078$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net>,
Telstra News Administrator <news...@telstra.net> wrote:

PM> Because of the actions discussed above, Telstra believes that
PM> there is no longer any reason for the UDP to be brought into
PM> force.

Peter,

I would like to personally thank you, for taking your clue-bat to
the appropriate personnel at BigPond.

Thank you for your help in getting to the root of the problem.

- --
David Ritz <dr...@suespammers.org>
"(The Internet is) the largest equivalence class in the reflexive
transitive symmetric closure of the relationship `can be reached by
an IP packet form'." - Seth Breidbart

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Tim Booth

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Mar 23, 2003, 11:48:42 PM3/23/03

to

Sunny wrote:
>
> Still doesn't help me on "How to post a new message to this news group"
> instead of replying to one .?

Well, which bit of the Subject must contain at least one
portion within [ ] marks is so hard??

ie, in this thread the [RFD] portion (for instance)...

Its a robot, the rules are semi-obvious...

Webko

Tim Booth

unread,

Mar 23, 2003, 11:53:10 PM3/23/03

to

> >No - the bot just counts and checks according to preset rules.
> >It can't actually read very well ;-)
>
> But the author of the bot software can.

But the author doesn't do the reading - the bot does, right??

>
> I deem a certain amount of text is relevant to my reply.
> End of story. To diagree with this is censorship.

No, it is not. It is a set of rules that you have
to comply with in order to post. Or at least, post in
such a way as the bot will let you.

>
> I will add dummy text, rather than trim what I regard as relevant.

If required, I'd do that as well.

Hasn't been so far

Webko

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 12:03:36 AM3/24/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 04:53:10 +0000 (UTC), Tim Booth
<tbo...@usyd.edu.au> wrote:

>> >No - the bot just counts and checks according to preset rules.
>> >It can't actually read very well ;-)
>>
>> But the author of the bot software can.
>
>But the author doesn't do the reading - the bot does, right??

Well to some extent. The bot is programmed to "read" and react
according to the rules which the author gives it.
I assumed the author wrote the rules after much reading to see what
the posters actually do. The bot must be there to keep the group as
most posters want it, otherwise what is its purpose?

>> I deem a certain amount of text is relevant to my reply.
>> End of story. To diagree with this is censorship.
>
>No, it is not. It is a set of rules that you have
>to comply with in order to post. Or at least, post in
>such a way as the bot will let you.

Where are these rules available?

>> I will add dummy text, rather than trim what I regard as relevant.
>
>If required, I'd do that as well.
>
>Hasn't been so far

Ta for the tips :)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 12:06:57 AM3/24/03

to

In a group with ONE thread? How is it obvious?

Do you know the reasons for this strange (to me) requirement in the
subject header?

Moosh:)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 1:14:19 AM3/24/03

to

OK, would the title: [Telstra] customer backlash over UDP
get through as a subject heading?
where: Telstra customer backlash over [UDP] would not ?

"Tim Booth" <tbo...@usyd.edu.au> wrote in message

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 1:23:28 AM3/24/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:06:57 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
>In a group with ONE thread? How is it obvious?

You're expected to have read the charter and FAQ and have lurked for a
while before posting. This isn't any different from any other
newsgroup out there in that regaurd.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 3:38:47 AM3/24/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:23:28 +0000 (UTC), Baloo Ursidae
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote:

>You're expected to have read the charter and FAQ and have lurked for a
>while before posting. This isn't any different from any other
>newsgroup out there in that regaurd.

Well post them, and I will. I've been participating in UseNet for
years and have never come across such a peculiar set up as this one.
I was referred here from a Telstra group. I responded to comments I
saw. In what way is it so different that lurking is necessary? I read
every post and then posted. If the rules for posting were posted, I
would have seen them and know what to avoid.

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 4:26:55 AM3/24/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:38:47 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
>Well post them, and I will.

It doesn't work that way. You're expected to know how to use Google
and know what http://www.faqs.org/ is if you can make it to Usenet.

>saw. In what way is it so different that lurking is necessary?

You're always expected to lurk for a while when you start reading a
new newsgroup. This has been the general expectation since Usenet
began, and usually applies to mailing lists as well.

http://tgos.org/newbie/
Read the Good Etiquette part if you haven't done so already. TGOS
(one of the readers of this newsgroup) has documented good usenet
behaviour for the benefit of the net. Use it.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 5:02:05 AM3/24/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:26:55 +0000 (UTC), Baloo Ursidae
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote:

>The Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:38:47 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
>>Well post them, and I will.
>
>It doesn't work that way.

That's what I mean. Every other group that I've followed and which has
an FAQ posts it regularly. That's how it works.

>You're expected to know how to use Google
>and know what http://www.faqs.org/ is if you can make it to Usenet.

Don't be so childish.

>>saw. In what way is it so different that lurking is necessary?
>
>You're always expected to lurk for a while when you start reading a
>new newsgroup.

Says who? There is hardly anything posted here, and I read every post
I could find. Sheeesh!

>This has been the general expectation since Usenet
>began, and usually applies to mailing lists as well.

In substantial groups you have a point, although some groups get
awfully precious and parochial.
They benefit from a bit of "fresh air" IMHO..

>http://tgos.org/newbie/
>Read the Good Etiquette part if you haven't done so already. TGOS
>(one of the readers of this newsgroup) has documented good usenet
>behaviour for the benefit of the net. Use it.

I do. Where have I not?
You are rather rude and patronising IYDMMSS.

Moosh:)

Baloo Ursidae

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 5:32:32 AM3/24/03

to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

The Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:02:05 +0000 (UTC), "Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
>>It doesn't work that way.
>
>That's what I mean. Every other group that I've followed and which has
>an FAQ posts it regularly. That's how it works.

Not always. It's always a good idea to go check for such information
before posting. As the saying goes, best to let everybody think
you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

>I do. Where have I not?

Obviously here, or this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

- --
.''`. Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 6:20:12 AM3/24/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:32:32 +0000 (UTC), Baloo Ursidae
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote:

>>That's what I mean. Every other group that I've followed and which has
>>an FAQ posts it regularly. That's how it works.
>
>Not always.

Maybe, but in my many years I've not seen it otherwise.

>It's always a good idea to go check for such information
>before posting.

I did, but the FAQ for this group appears to not be where you said it
was. Can you tell me where it is, as you are so anxious for me to read
it?

>As the saying goes, best to let everybody think
>you're an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Again, try to curb your impudence.

>>I do. Where have I not?
>
>Obviously here, or this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

Or you have a problem understanding.

Where exactly have I breached netiquette, as you accused me, but
unfortunately appear to have snipped from your response?

Moosh:)

Tim Skirvin

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 10:35:53 AM3/24/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:

>Where are these rules available?

You're right, they're not easily available. For the record, then:

o All messages must have a subject tag. That's the bit in the
[]s at the start of the subject line.

o Must have less than 70% quoted material if there's more than
20 lines in the message. This is not difficult to work out.

o I'm actually blocking most of Bloxy's floods, or at least was
back when they were a major issue.

o Some basic anti-spam tricks are followed (which I won't
enumerate here). Binary and HTML messages are also filtered.

Note that if any message is posted that doesn't meet the
requirements, a message is sent to the sender saying *why* it failed.
There's not much I can do if you're not posting with a real address,
though.

And on the subject of adding filler text to fulfull the 'bots
requirements: don't do it. Just trim your quotes to something reasonable;
you don't need to put all of the previous message in. I consider filler
text semi-abusive, at least to the spirit of the rules.

- Tim Skirvin (tski...@killfile.org)
Moderator, news.admin.net-abuse.policy
--
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>

http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/ Skirv's FAQs

Graham Drabble

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 11:03:09 AM3/24/03

to

On 24 Mar 2003 Tim Skirvin <tski...@killfile.org> wrote in
news:tskirvin.20030324153016$39...@babylon.ks.uiuc.edu:

> "Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> writes:
>
>>Where are these rules available?
>
> You're right, they're not easily available. For the record,
> then:
>

Is the no cross-posting rule no longer in effect or did you just forget
about it?

--
Graham Drabble
If you're interested in what goes on in other groups or want to find
an interesting group to read then check news.groups.reviews for what
others have to say or contribute a review for others to read.

Tim Skirvin

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 4:25:44 PM3/24/03

to

Graham Drabble <graham....@lineone.net> writes:

>>>Where are these rules available?
>> You're right, they're not easily available. For the record,
>> then:
><snip rules>
>Is the no cross-posting rule no longer in effect or did you just forget
>about it?

I just forgot.

- Tim Skirvin (tski...@killfile.org)
Moderator, news.admin.net-abuse.policy
--
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/ Skirv's Homepage <FISH>< <*>

http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/history/ Skirv's History

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 24, 2003, 8:37:44 PM3/24/03

to

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:35:53 +0000 (UTC), Tim Skirvin
<tski...@killfile.org> wrote:

> You're right, they're not easily available. For the record, then:
>
> o All messages must have a subject tag. That's the bit in the
> []s at the start of the subject line.
>
> o Must have less than 70% quoted material if there's more than
> 20 lines in the message. This is not difficult to work out.
>
> o I'm actually blocking most of Bloxy's floods, or at least was
> back when they were a major issue.
>
> o Some basic anti-spam tricks are followed (which I won't
> enumerate here). Binary and HTML messages are also filtered.
>
> Note that if any message is posted that doesn't meet the
>requirements, a message is sent to the sender saying *why* it failed.
>There's not much I can do if you're not posting with a real address,
>though.
>
> And on the subject of adding filler text to fulfull the 'bots
>requirements: don't do it. Just trim your quotes to something reasonable;
>you don't need to put all of the previous message in. I consider filler
>text semi-abusive, at least to the spirit of the rules.

Thanks for that, Tim. Makes posting a bit easier now.

I've explained why I don't use a real or even munged email address any
more.

I agree with you about the filler text. The several posts I did it in
were where I deemed the filler text the lesser evil than snipping the
text that I felt important. I am used to newsfeeds which are rather
"gappy" with some posts in some threads. I have sometimes come across
a thread where the OP was missing and no-one bothered to quote him.
If the group was archived by Google, I might find it with some bother,
but then sometimes the OP has even barred archiving. To find a
thoughtful poster who has quoted the OP within the thread is so
helpful. Then there is the philosophy held by some that each post
should stand on its own for the benefit of newbies entering a thread
half way through.

Regards

Moosh:)

Tim Booth

unread,

Mar 25, 2003, 5:17:48 PM3/25/03

to

> > "Telstra News Administrator" <news...@telstra.net> wrote in message
> > news:3e76c1c3$0$84080$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
> > > To clarify, the interal block was only for posts from
> > > news-server.bigpond.net.au, which is the server used by BigPond
> > > Broadband/Advance.
>
> > What software did you install to filter spam?
>
> None; they blocked all traffic from the server that was used by spammers
> (as far as I understand the above sentence).

More fully, they temporarily blocked the entire server from
propagating outside the Telstra network.

From subsequent posts, CleanFeed was then installed on the
server, with some fairly severe restrictions, and the
server was unblocked.

Cheers

Webko

Sunny

unread,

Mar 25, 2003, 5:44:53 PM3/25/03

to

"Tim Booth" <tbo...@usyd.edu.au> wrote in message

news:3E80D587...@usyd.edu.au...

And... The "blocking" continues for many unfortunate bigpond/Telstra
customers.
Those affected seem to only manage approx 12 posts per day to usernet.
(I am one of them (day 11) and this is my 7th post this morning). Probably
have 5 more to go and then ZAP!

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 25, 2003, 9:16:38 PM3/25/03

to

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:44:53 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>And... The "blocking" continues for many unfortunate bigpond/Telstra
>customers.
>Those affected seem to only manage approx 12 posts per day to usernet.
>(I am one of them (day 11) and this is my 7th post this morning). Probably
>have 5 more to go and then ZAP!

If it's any consolation, I emailed them as I posted earlier here, and
they gave me a 25% discount for March.
This as well as the 25% discount they gave me for Feb for their
service probs which didn't really affect me.

I'm still not a happy camper for them just throwing all my work out
without a word, but still....

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 25, 2003, 9:22:41 PM3/25/03

to

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:44:53 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>And... The "blocking" continues for many unfortunate bigpond/Telstra
>customers.
>Those affected seem to only manage approx 12 posts per day to usernet.
>(I am one of them (day 11) and this is my 7th post this morning). Probably
>have 5 more to go and then ZAP!

Just a thought that occurred to me after I sent the last post, do they
notify you when they block your posts?
I have been busy elsewhere and have not posted many recently.
I remember a previous ISP who would knock back posts after my
twentieth. No-one there knew anything about this, one of the reasons I
left. My posts would be rejected so I knew, not like Telstra's trick
earlier this month where the posts apparently went through, but were
just not propagated to the world.

Moosh:)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 1:26:00 AM3/26/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message

news:rh328vcv4if94b2jv...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:44:53 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
> <womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >And... The "blocking" continues for many unfortunate bigpond/Telstra
> >customers.
> >Those affected seem to only manage approx 12 posts per day to usernet.
> >(I am one of them (day 11) and this is my 7th post this morning).
Probably
> >have 5 more to go and then ZAP!
>
> Just a thought that occurred to me after I sent the last post, do they
> notify you when they block your posts?

Who did you e-mail to get a refund ? All my e-mails to
suppor...@online.telstra.com.au get answered by an auto responder that
issues a "case number", E-Mail them back quoting the "case Number" only in
the "subject", gets me another case number, it's a sick joke.
"they don't seem to have a clue what's causing the "blocks".
(To add insult to injury, as I am typing this my first e-mail (14 Mar) was
just answered stating "the problem has been fixed, if it re-occurrs please
ring help desk")

Date/times "posting ability available":
Sun 16 Mar - NIL
Mon 17 Mar - NIL
Tue 18 Mar - 0815hr to 1000hr (1hr-45min)
Wed 19 Mar - 0750hr to 0850hr (1hr)
Thu 20 Mar - 0805hr to 0905hr (1hr)
Fri 21 Mar - 0756hr to 0846hr (50min)
- 1456hr to 1522hr (26min)
Sat 22 Mar - 0854hr to 1250hr (3hr-56min)
Sun 23 Mar - 0810hr to 1053hr (2hr-43min)with new IP
- 1642hr to 1650hr (8 min) (1 Post)
Mon 24 Mar - 0800hr to 0940hr (1hr-40min)
- 0800hr to 1230hr (4hr-30min) (2nd acc.)
- 1550hr to 1600hr (5min) (2nd acc. none)
Tue 25 Mar - 0802hr to 0950hr (1hr-48min) 12 posts
0802hr to 1013hr (2hr-11min) 13 posts
1520hr to 1540hr (20min) (2nd acc. none)
Wed 26 Mar - 0756hr to 0900hr (1hr-4min) 14 posts
1527hr to 1545hr (18min) 3 posts

Action taken:
1. Sun 16 Mar - Rang Help Desk
- Applied to use news.cis.dfn.de server
2. Mon 17 Mar - Rang Help Desk (0908hr)
- Disconnected Modem 12 hours
3. Tue 18 Mar - Rang Help Desk (1143hr)
- E-Mail to newsadmin re UDP posts
on usernet.
- Disconnected Modem 13 hours
6. Wed 19 Mar - Rang Help desk (1400hr to 1436hr)
7. Thu 20 Mar - Rang Help Desk (0913hr to 0924hr)
- Approved to use nes.cis.dfn.de server
- Rang Help Desk (1715hr to 1723hr)
- tried BPA server at 1936hr, FAIL
- tried BPA server at 2050hr, FAIL
8. Fri 21 Mar - Rang help Desk (0855hr to 0900hr)
9. Sat 22 Mar - Rang help Desk (1353hr to 1408hr)
10 Sun 23 Mar - Rang help desk (1032hr to 1050hr)
to report that IP change may have
fixed my problem.
11. Rang help desk (1104hr to 1136hr)
to report damn problem kicked in again
around 1053hr.
12. Rang help desk (1707hr to 1723hr)
(only got 1 post away at 1642hr)
13. Mon 24 Mar Rang help desk (1022hr to 1033hr)
14. Rang 1800001398. A Telstra Team Leader
then rang and undertook to escalate
the problem again.
15. Rang help desk to report 2nd IP has
suffered same problem.(from 1230hr)
16. Didn't bother to ring about afternoon
blocking.
17. Tue 25 Mar Rang help desk (1037hr to 1047hr)
Rang help desk (1600hr to 1614hr)
18. Wed 26 Mar Rang help desk (0925hr to 0934hr)
Rang help desk (1600hr to

Advice from Help Desk (so far):
Sunday, 16 Mar 03 :
1. Problem will be escalated.
Monday, 17 Mar 03 :
2. E-mail will be sent to the news server Techs
3. Disconnect the Modem to maybe get a new IP address
4. Investigation could take up to 72 hr
Tuesday, 18 Mar 03 :
5. report says it has been resolved?
6. Apparently the IP address was blocked and it has been removed
unfortunately the case is closed and I will have to esculate
the problem, (that the block is on again) as a new event.
Wednesday, 19 Mar 03 :
7. Have passed all details of your problem upwards on e-mail
(there is a log of other people having problems)
Thursday, 20 Mar 03 :
8. Will pass details of your problem (only able to post for
1 hour this morning, from 0805hr to 0906hr.
9. Will escalate your problem (only able to post for 20min
this afternoon, from 1635hr to 1650hr.
"We are working on the problem, and the status page will
not reflect a problem unless it involves a significant
number of users.
Friday, 21 Mar 03 :
10. Will escalate your problem (only able to post for 50 min
this morning, from 0756hr to 0846hr.)
The server complex Techs are aware of the problem, which
is effecting some users, and are working on the problem.
11. Will escalate your problem (only able to post for 26 min
this afternoon, from 1456hr to 1522hr.)
Saturday, 22 Mar 03 :
12. Will report your problem (only able to post for 4 hr
today, from 0854hr to 1300hr.)
They are working on the problem and are thankful that
you are logging the times that your problem occurs.
Sunday, 23 Mar 03 :
13. Will report that the change of IP Address may have
fixed your problems.
14. Will now report that the change of IP Address has NOT
fixed your problem.
15. Will report that you only got one post through at 1642hr.
Monday, 24 Mar 03 :
16. Will report that you could only post 10 messages, and
was "blocked" from 0940hr.
17. **From a Telstra Team Leader (phone call to me)
"Will escalate your problem from this end."
18. Will report that your 2nd account cannot post to news
groups as well. i.e. both account IP addresses are blocked.
Tuesday, 25 Mar 03 :
19. Will send a "server complex form" forward with your latest
posting problems. "processing of e-mail enquiries to
suppor...@online.telstra.com.au are currently averaging
approx. 3 weeks."
20. Will escalate the details of "only got 3 posts through before
being blocked. "can you give me the titles of some of the
news groups you subscribe to?"
Wednesday, 26 Mar 03 :
21. Will escalate the details of "only got 14 posts through
before being blocked.
22. Will escalate the details of "only got 3 posts through
before being blocked

Frank Slootweg

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 5:51:11 AM3/26/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:44:53 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
> <womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>And... The "blocking" continues for many unfortunate bigpond/Telstra
>>customers.
>>Those affected seem to only manage approx 12 posts per day to usernet.
>>(I am one of them (day 11) and this is my 7th post this morning). Probably
>>have 5 more to go and then ZAP!
>
> Just a thought that occurred to me after I sent the last post, do they
> notify you when they block your posts?

I can/do not speak for Telstra, but unless they do something special,
it is kind of hard (but not impossible) to give notification to users
like you who do not supply a valid email address. Of course Telstra
*can* trace postings to their 'real' user, but whether they *do* that
*continuously* and whether they are legally allowed to do that is
another matter. I don't know one way or the other, but I think it likely
that they just block on From: or/and NNTP-Posting-Host:.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 6:31:55 AM3/26/03

to

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:26:00 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Who did you e-mail to get a refund ? All my e-mails to
>suppor...@online.telstra.com.au get answered by an auto responder that
>issues a "case number", E-Mail them back quoting the "case Number" only in
>the "subject", gets me another case number, it's a sick joke.
>"they don't seem to have a clue what's causing the "blocks".
>(To add insult to injury, as I am typing this my first e-mail (14 Mar) was
>just answered stating "the problem has been fixed, if it re-occurrs please
>ring help desk")

I filled in the "contact us" re accounts (I think) on their site.
The response some days later came from
broa...@online.telstra.com.au

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 6:38:22 AM3/26/03

to

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:51:11 +0000 (UTC), Frank Slootweg
<fra...@neth.hp.com> wrote:

>> Just a thought that occurred to me after I sent the last post, do they
>> notify you when they block your posts?
>
> I can/do not speak for Telstra, but unless they do something special,
>it is kind of hard (but not impossible) to give notification to users
>like you who do not supply a valid email address.

The newsserver does not contact you via email, it sends an error
message to your newsreader.

>Of course Telstra
>*can* trace postings to their 'real' user, but whether they *do* that
>*continuously* and whether they are legally allowed to do that is
>another matter. I don't know one way or the other, but I think it likely
>that they just block on From: or/and NNTP-Posting-Host:.

It's all done automatically. The newsserver doesn't need to trace
anything.

Moosh:)

Frank Slootweg

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 3:22:43 PM3/26/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@zz.zz> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:51:11 +0000 (UTC), Frank Slootweg
> <fra...@neth.hp.com> wrote:
>
>>> Just a thought that occurred to me after I sent the last post, do they
>>> notify you when they block your posts?
>>
>> I can/do not speak for Telstra, but unless they do something special,
>>it is kind of hard (but not impossible) to give notification to users
>>like you who do not supply a valid email address.
>
> The newsserver does not contact you via email, it sends an error
> message to your newsreader.

[deleted]

Duh! [Sounds of surgeon trying to fix Frank Slootweg with a brain.]

Seriously, *which* error message do you get? Is it understandable,
i.e. can you figure out the cause?

Sunny

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 5:28:44 PM3/26/03

to

>"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message

>> <womba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Who did you e-mail to get a refund ? All my e-mails to
>>suppor...@online.telstra.com.au get answered by an auto responder
that

<snip>

> I filled in the "contact us" re accounts (I think) on their site.
> The response some days later came from
> broa...@online.telstra.com.au

Thanks, I will have to start sending them something, now day 12 and they
can't seem to sort out a glitch, that they "installed" themselves.
It's difficult composing a letter, when the keyboard seems to want to start
it with "Dear Wankers" :-)

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 9:02:51 PM3/26/03

to

I use Agent, and the message was in the form of a red frownie against
the message indicating that it wasn't sent, and a message pane that
said something like "Error Message" The server has reported error
401-xxx (IIRC) then something about spam, but my help files are "lost"
on another drive at present, so I can't find the exact error number.
The spam mesage was just a generic reason that these posts were
rejected. I expect this was very similar software that Telstra has
installed. I was once named on a "spamometer" in another group when
I've NEVER spammed anything in my life. When you read the fine print
it just indicated that your posing habits are unusual. I used to post
many messages all at once every few days. The bots obviously were
programmed to regard this mass posting of more than ~20 messages in a
short period as spam.

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 26, 2003, 9:10:54 PM3/26/03

to

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:28:44 +0000 (UTC), Sunny
<womba...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>Thanks, I will have to start sending them something, now day 12 and they
>can't seem to sort out a glitch, that they "installed" themselves.
>It's difficult composing a letter, when the keyboard seems to want to start
>it with "Dear Wankers" :-)

Don't give them Dear anything. Short and sweet, facts only, tell them
they've breached their contract with you and you are prepared to find
another ISP if they don't give you 50% discount. They have this 25%
precedent that they seem to be able to dole out when required. That
might be all you get.

Of course, if the Telstra cable is the only broadband available to
you, I guess you is SOL. I'd cut me "short-and-curlies" off with the
scissors :)

Moosh:)

Sunny

unread,

Mar 27, 2003, 2:31:22 AM3/27/03

to

"Moosh:)" <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote in message

news:65n48voct93v8t692...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:28:44 +0000 (UTC),
Sunny

> Of course, if the Telstra cable is the only broadband available to
> you, I guess you is SOL. I'd cut me "short-and-curlies" off with the
> scissors :)

Yep, that's where it's at :-( broadband, is Telstra cable or zilch.
My experimenting has revealed that it (the blocking) effects the "in house"
Telstra news groups, not just usernet posts.
Did some test posts to Telstra private groups only, and got to 14, before
being blocked.

Kathy Morgan

unread,

Mar 27, 2003, 2:57:25 AM3/27/03

to

Moosh:) <Z...@ZZ.ZZ> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:22:43 +0000 (UTC), Frank Slootweg
> <fra...@neth.hp.com> wrote:
>
> > Seriously, *which* error message do you get? Is it understandable,
> >i.e. can you figure out the cause?
>
> I use Agent, and the message was in the form of a red frownie against
> the message indicating that it wasn't sent, and a message pane that
> said something like "Error Message" The server has reported error

> 401-xxx (IIRC) then something about spam, [...] I used to post

> many messages all at once every few days. The bots obviously were
> programmed to regard this mass posting of more than ~20 messages in a
> short period as spam.

If you're using Agent as an offline reader, and posting multiple
messages all at once when you connect again to the news server, I'll bet
that's exactly what the server is objecting to. A spammer typically
would send tens to thousands of messages at once, and I'll bet their
spam-screening software is misinterpreting your posts as spam because
you're sending more than one message within a second or so.

--
Kathy

Moosh:)

unread,

Mar 27, 2003, 5:11:16 AM3/27/03

to

Telstra will know that I have a dozen ADSL alternatives, and when the
power company or whoever pull cables through the conduits they've just
laid, (in which they installed the pull cords today) I will have even
more options. Thus I am a "valued customer". Sorry, you'll have to
move :)

I would bet that the blocking to in-house groups is just a silly
programming error. Why would anyone spam an in-house Telstra group?
Unless they had an allergy to their account :)

Moosh:)