Abandoned Property
Steuard Jensen
I'm only just now getting around to passing it along here. I have
some vague recollection of a similar discussion coming up recently,
but if it did I'm pretty sure I was too busy at the time to
participate or really even pay much attention; feel free to point me
in that direction if you don't want to discuss it again. :)
The question involved the old possessions and property of the Elves
who departed into the West. For a while, their remaining kin would
presumably inherit everything that they couldn't take on the boat with
them (like their land :) ), but eventually whole communities
disappeared (especially in the Fourth Age). Whatever happened to the
final inhabitants, they must have left _some_ things behind.
So what happened to all that stuff? Was it ceremonially burned before
the few remaining Elves moved on? Did brave humans exploring the old
Elf-haunts eventually collect it and take it home? (I'm assuming here
that some of what remained was durable enough to last hundreds of
years or longer.) Was it stolen by raiding parties? And did any of
it "make a difference" in the lives of those who found it (being
higher technology, or culturally unique, or whatever)?
And what about formerly Elvish land? Do you think that humans
eventually settled in Lothlorien? Or would they just cut it down for
timber? How long would it take for the lesser humans' fear of those
Elvish places (such as Eomer's) or the more educated humans' respect
for them to fade enough for them to do any of that? (And on a related
note, how long do you think it took humans to start making some sort
of use of Fangorn?)
Any thoughts would be appreciated. :)
Steuard Jensen
Jussi Jaatinen
Steuard Jensen wrote:
> The question involved the old possessions and property of the Elves
> who departed into the West. For a while, their remaining kin would
> presumably inherit everything that they couldn't take on the boat with
> them (like their land :) ), but eventually whole communities
> disappeared (especially in the Fourth Age). Whatever happened to the
> final inhabitants, they must have left _some_ things behind.
It's quite surprising how much stuff human inhabitants typically leave
behind when they abandon settlements. Archaeologists looking at ancient
habitations often find more things left behind than you'd expect.
And in relatively short order (on the Elvish timescale) their old
habitations would effectively become archaeological sites. With their
locations forgotten, the issue of land ownership would probably not even
come up. Eventually people would find them by accident and consider them
curiosities or, of the people are scientifically oriented (Gondor)
indeed objects of study.
Thranduil's underground habitations would last essentially for ever, but
they'd be almost impossible to find in Mirkwood. The Lorien seemed to be
built largely of wood, so most signs of the Elvish culture there would
simply disappear. Ruins of Eregion would last millennia, and I got the
impression that the Elven habitations near the Havens also were made of
stone. Rivendell was apparently difficult to locate already at the time
of the War of the Ring.
-JJ
TitaniumWulf
be to have the land come under the protection
of the King of Gondor.
Wyatt
Jon Gilchrist
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>So what happened to all that stuff? Was it ceremonially burned before
>And what about formerly Elvish land? Do you think that humans
Taniquetil = Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan, Mexico
Others:
Easter Island
Ankor Wat
Egypt
Macchu Piccu
Just a thought.
-Jon
Address is munged. Use Sting to reply.
If you don't understand this, read The Lord of the Rings.
Conrad Dunkerson
> And what about formerly Elvish land?
There was that line about the descendants of Arwen 'inherriting the
elf kingdoms of the west'. If taken literally that might mean that
the Reunited Kingdom annexed the abandoned elven lands.
> Do you think that humans eventually settled in Lothlorien? Or would
> they just cut it down for timber?
Taking the 'Middle-earth is our Earth' view it would seem likely that
a little of both happened.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated. :)
Most of the rest is way too speculative... with no foundation to build
from the answers could be all over the map.
AC
> A while ago, a friend of mine asked me an interesting question, and
> I'm only just now getting around to passing it along here. I have
> some vague recollection of a similar discussion coming up recently,
> but if it did I'm pretty sure I was too busy at the time to
> participate or really even pay much attention; feel free to point me
> in that direction if you don't want to discuss it again. :)
>
> The question involved the old possessions and property of the Elves
> who departed into the West. For a while, their remaining kin would
> presumably inherit everything that they couldn't take on the boat with
> them (like their land :) ), but eventually whole communities
> disappeared (especially in the Fourth Age). Whatever happened to the
> final inhabitants, they must have left _some_ things behind.
>
> So what happened to all that stuff? Was it ceremonially burned before
> the few remaining Elves moved on? Did brave humans exploring the old
> Elf-haunts eventually collect it and take it home? (I'm assuming here
> that some of what remained was durable enough to last hundreds of
> years or longer.) Was it stolen by raiding parties? And did any of
> it "make a difference" in the lives of those who found it (being
> higher technology, or culturally unique, or whatever)?
I would assume anything of any great value (relics from the Noldorin
kingdoms and the like) would likely have been taken West over the years. It
seems that by the end of the Third Age, either the Wandering Companies were
carrying anything particularly valuable with them, or it was in Lorien or
Imaldris. We don't ever find out what was taken when Elrond and Galadriel
passed into the West (other than the Three), but I'd bet that there were
Elvish heirlooms taken as well.
My hunch is that anything left, particular from the Noldor, would have
eventually made its way into the protection of Aragorn and his descendants.
Aragorn seems, rather round-aboutly, to have claimed most of the northwest
of Middle Earth (Erebor and Thranduil's kingdom coming under the protection
of the Sceptre of the North), and as such, Imaldris, where I would imagine
much of what was valuable would have ended up, would likely have either been
occupied or emptied.
>
> And what about formerly Elvish land? Do you think that humans
> eventually settled in Lothlorien? Or would they just cut it down for
> timber? How long would it take for the lesser humans' fear of those
> Elvish places (such as Eomer's) or the more educated humans' respect
> for them to fade enough for them to do any of that? (And on a related
> note, how long do you think it took humans to start making some sort
> of use of Fangorn?)
While I can't see Rohan or the people of the Wilderland entering Lorien any
time soon, I don't think that some of the descendants of the Numenoreans
would have, after a sufficient time, been quite so leery. I'm sure that
once the number of Elves dwelling in Lorien had dwindled sufficiently, the
need for wood, the desire for more territory and probably even plain greed
at hoping to find Elvish artifacts would have ultimately lead some to enter
Lorien. Once that happened, and lightening didn't strike everybody involved
dead, it would only be a matter of time before the land would be swalled by
Men.
--
Aaron Clausen
Eol
"Jon Gilchrist" <j...@f3pshelob.com> wrote in message
news:fuf0gv0jtjmu87gtp...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 01:17:04 GMT, sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
> >So what happened to all that stuff? Was it ceremonially burned before
>
> >And what about formerly Elvish land? Do you think that humans
>
> Taniquetil = Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan, Mexico
>
> Others:
> Easter Island
> Ankor Wat
> Egypt
> Macchu Piccu
>
> Just a thought.
>
> -Jon
No way!
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 01:17:04 GMT, sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
> >So what happened to all that stuff? Was it ceremonially burned before
>
> >And what about formerly Elvish land? Do you think that humans
>
> Taniquetil = Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan, Mexico
>
> Others:
> Easter Island
> Ankor Wat
> Egypt
> Macchu Piccu
pinnacles national monument
Glenn Holliday
>
> So what happened to all that stuff? ... And did any of
> it "make a difference" in the lives of those who found it (being
> higher technology, or culturally unique, or whatever)?
Some of it certainly would. Swords from Gondolin would
continue to be highly valued. Any Elven jewelry or artwork
would be treasured. Their musical instruments would be the
Stradivari of the Fourth Age. Probably any item crafted by
the Elves would be highly sought by the educated, and
treated with superstitious awe by the uneducated.
Elven artifacts would be significant in the lives of their
owners. See Sting for Bilbo and Frodo, and the gifts of
Galadriel for the rest of the Fellowship. Some would be
significant for an entire community, as Sam's box of dirt
helped the Shire recover. Some would doubtless become
significant family heirlooms, and some pass into royal
regalia. Elven art and writing had already influenced
human styles in the Third Age. It would continue to
do so.
Think of how easy it is to find Roman influences in our
own culture today. I imagine Elven influences would be
even greater.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
TchWrtrMcf
universe
Cave Troll
|The question involved the old possessions and property of the Elves
|
|So what happened to all that stuff?
|
I would say as the Elves left, their efforts at staying the
ravages of change and time would fall from the lands too. So
about the time that Men got brave enough to go into, say
Rivendell, by then everything Elven would have succumbed
to dust and wind, rain and bramble.
OTOH aren't we sort of told that some of the Elven Lands stay
as they were for quite sometime in " A PART OF THE TALE OF ARAGORN
AND ARWEN "?
--------------------
'...and she [ Arwen ] went out from the city of Minas Tirith
and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone
under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed
away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
[ So the elf host was gone, but the land was still empty,
granted not all that much time had passed... but read on ]
'There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring
had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth;
and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and
all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come
after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.
--------------------
This kind of circularly states that Arwen's grave, and the
flowers of Lothlorien ( & maybe even mallorns near her final repose)
stayed the same until the flowers of Lothlorien and maybe even
the mallorns near her final repose weren't there -- all of which
is based on if Arwen was forgotten or not? Sounds like it stayed
the same forever to me. . .due to the writings of some of them
blasted thieving hairfoot hobbits.
Yet still, I! CAVE TROLL, have through craft and brute force
gotten my huge hands on these rare artifacts that can but have
once been those of that witchling Ms. Undomiel:
* http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=+arwen+passport
* http://shop.dashmount.co.uk/phonecovers/arwen2.jpg
====================================================================
"The poor, confused cave troll. He doesn't know what he's doing.
He just never had the proper guidance." -- Elijah Wood
====================================================================
Jussi Jaatinen
Glenn Holliday wrote:
> Some of it certainly would. Swords from Gondolin would
> continue to be highly valued. Any Elven jewelry or artwork
> would be treasured.
Indeed, consider how the bust of Queen Nefertiti and several other works
of art from the Ancient world are still treasured and studied. I'd
imagine that the crown jewels of Gondor would include among them gems
made by the Noldor (the Elessar is one obvious, but unlikely only,
example), probably even gems and jewellery from Valinor. Since the Elves
have very elevated senses of beauty, such items would indeed be
treasures.
From the ending of LotR can be gleaned an understanding that Gondor in
the Fourth Age would have made an effort to maintain the memory of ages
past, which certainly includes memories of the Eldar.
> Think of how easy it is to find Roman influences in our
> own culture today. I imagine Elven influences would be
> even greater.
True enough. Where I live we still have news broadcasts in Latin, and
Latin is still an official language of the Vatican. It would take a very
long time for Sindarin to be forgotten in Middle-Earth.
-JJ
Taemon
> Yet still, I! CAVE TROLL, have through craft and brute force
> gotten my huge hands on these rare artifacts that can but have
> once been those of that witchling Ms. Undomiel:
Cave Troll! Back with us! For how long this time, I wonder?
Greetings, T.
Cave Troll
> Cave Troll! Back with us! For how long this time, I wonder?
Dunno. Sorta just passing through. Thanks for noticing though. :)
Sketch I had done by one of them pencil caricature guys at a
fair:
http://www.angband.com/towers/images/playerart/cavetroll.jpg
At work:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0211/8d7d6de79290007a0992.jpeg
Erm, wait, hmm:
http://www.trollshop.net/trolls/trollcave/trollcave.htm
Brenda Selwyn
>The Lorien seemed to be
>built largely of wood, so most signs of the Elvish culture there would
>simply disappear. Ruins of Eregion would last millennia, and I got the
>impression that the Elven habitations near the Havens also were made of
>stone.
Being made of stone is no guarantee of preservation, not once people
have settled in an area. It's believed a great deal of the stone
which was originally used to construct Hadrian's Wall can now be found
incorporated into the walls of local houses and farm buildings.
Brenda
--
*************************************************************************
Brenda Selwyn
"In England's green and pleasant land"
I may look in on this thread again before it is all over, but in
the meanwhile I have some other pressing business to attend to.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
> Being made of stone is no guarantee of preservation, not once people
> have settled in an area. It's believed a great deal of the stone
> which was originally used to construct Hadrian's Wall can now be found
> incorporated into the walls of local houses and farm buildings.
Throughout the Middle Ages, the Colosseum was used as a stone quarry by
people living in the vicinity. That so much of it is still left says
somethinng about what a huge, magnificent structure it was.
Öjevind
Tar-Elenion
> In article <t001on6un...@waybelowmoria.com>,
> Cave Troll <c...@waybelowmoria.com> wrote:
> >
> >OTOH aren't we sort of told that some of the Elven Lands stay
> >as they were for quite sometime in " A PART OF THE TALE OF ARAGORN
> >AND ARWEN "?
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> >'...and she [ Arwen ] went out from the city of Minas Tirith
> >and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone
> >under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed
> >away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
> >
> >[ So the elf host was gone, but the land was still empty,
> > granted not all that much time had passed... but read on ]
> >
> >'There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring
> >had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth;
> >and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and
> >all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come
> >after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> >This kind of circularly states that Arwen's grave, and the
> >flowers of Lothlorien ( & maybe even mallorns near her final repose)
> >stayed the same until the flowers of Lothlorien and maybe even
> >the mallorns near her final repose weren't there -- all of which
> >is based on if Arwen was forgotten or not? Sounds like it stayed
> >the same forever to me. . .due to the writings of some of them
> >blasted thieving hairfoot hobbits.
>
> significant-- while Elves (or at least Galadriel) lived there, the
> Mallorns did not shed their leaves, if I recall correctly. So clearly
> Lothlorien had become "ordinary" by the time Arwen died.
The phrase merely refers to the time of year; Mallorn-leaves fall in
spring not autumn.
" `There lie the woods of Lothlórien!' said Legolas. `That is the fairest
of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of
that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not
till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the
boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is
golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the
bark of the trees is smooth and grey.'"
LotR, FotR, Lothlórien
----
Tar-Elenion
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
> The phrase merely refers to the time of year; Mallorn-leaves fall in
> spring not autumn.
> " `There lie the woods of Lothlórien!' said Legolas. `That is the fairest
> of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of
> that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not
> till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the
> boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is
> golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the
> bark of the trees is smooth and grey.'"
> LotR, FotR, Lothlórien
>
> ----
I used to love this passage so much. I think about the woods of
Lothlorien whenever I walk on the niagara escarpment, in the woods, by
myself.
All I felt as I read this passage now, was brown leaves dying and
decaying. I couldn't feel the love, after reading tchwtrmcfs recent
post where he said some other groups than his must die.
How does it go, you can turn to stone if you see a gorgon's face.? I
think someone froze the trees right into fall ... in the passage above.
I'll just walk death valley in california (as I want to do), and maybe
I'll forget the words he said.
Hasan