Marlowe as a possible Page
lyra
on this subject,
the following from John Baker...
*but*...
1. I am NOT Baker
2. I usually don't take to his stuff...
nevertheless, I think the following to be of
considerable interest...
(and thanks, John)
(quote)
From: john_baker (john_baker)
Subject: Re: Faunt of knowledge
View: Complete Thread (42 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare
Date: 2000/06/19
Sidney was there too. And for good reasons I have suggested that young
Marlowe was Sidney's page and thus was also there in the flesh. Here
are the reasons. A page begins at about age seven and Marlowe was
seven. Marlowe is missing from Canterbury until 1579, seven years
later, when he reappears ready to attend the KS's. Marlowe father
never counted on Chris to be a shoemaker and hired his own apprtces in
the absence of young Chris..something none of the biog. have noticed,
but important nevertheless. His father had an undisclosed source of
income and something that made him self important, but about which he
couldn't talk. I think it was his son's job. Someone pays his fees at
the K.S.
(unquote)
my notes to this...
1. Seven was the age Christopher Marlowe
was when William Parr died...
who is likely to be Christopher Marlowe's real father.
This would leave him without his father's help,
and indeed no Will was ever found.
2. Marlowe's (Canterbury) father would indeed not have
counted on him to be a shoemaker.
3. The undisclosed source of income and something that made
(John Marlowe)
self important...
how about payments from Parr's widow, or granted to the Marlowes
before Parr's death, or from relatives of William Parr...
4. School fees paid... see number 3, same thing.
This to me is all most interesting!
* * * * * *
"speed bonny boat, like a bird on the wing"
lyra
lyra
all I wrote on the previous thread (3 items)...
(quote)
Can anyone comment on these two queries...?
a) The position of a page in a household of a nobleman
used to be the first step in a training which went via
squire to knight...
at some time, page became only a servant's employment...
in which century would this have been?
b) The knighthood, for the page/squire deemed
suitable, could be granted by the nobleman,
who was often the relative or friend of the
page/squire's father...
a good example is William Marshall,
sent to train in Normandy with a relative.
At some time, it became only the *king/queen*'s
privilege to grant knighthoods...
can anyone say in which century?
("William Marshal was born c 1146, and as a younger son,
becoming a knight was his natural choice
of a path to success and survival.
Marshal was sent to his father's cousin
William of Tancarville, hereditary Chamberlain of Normandy,
to be trained as a knight in c1159.
He was knighted, probably by his uncle, in 1167."
<http://www.castlewales.com/marshall.html> )
Thanks for anything on this subject!
lyra
It has often been mentioned
at HLAS that Christopher Marlowe
might have been a page
to Sir Philip Sidney...
and it seems one of the pages to Sidney
became an Earl.
It occcurred to me that if
Christopher Marlowe was in fact the
son of William Parr,
then his first cousin
would be Henry Herbert, Earl of
Pembroke (a son of Anne Parr)...
Henry Herbert had married the sister
of Sidney,
when Marlowe was about 12,
and hence the right sort of age
for a page...
leading to knighthood?
lyra
quote)
Dictionary of National Biography 1888, Vol XIV, pp. 37-39
Ed. by Leslie Stephen
DANVERS, HENRY, EARL OF DANBY (1573-1644), was the second son of Sir
John Danvers, knight, of Dauntsey, Wiltshire, by his wife the Hon.
Elizabeth Nevill, the youngest daughter and coheiress of John Nevill,
last baron Latimer. He was born at Dauntsey on the 28 June 1573, and
at an early age became a page to Sir Philip Sidney, whom he
accompanied to the Low Countries, and was probably present at the
battle of Zutphen in 1586.
<http://www.geocities.com/garydanvers/EoD-DNB.html>
(unquote)
John Nevill, Baron Latimer,
was the second husband
of Katherine Parr,
(Queen of England,
and sister of Anne Parr
and William Parr)...
so, he would be a relative of any
son of William Parr.
(unquote)
I would add,
that John Nevill who married
Catherine was in fact the father
of the other one.
* * * * * *
lyra
lyra
from the following, it doesn't seem likely that
a boy of a shoemaker family could become a page...
but if he was the son of William Parr, Marquess of
Northampton?? *then*, all would fit...
(quote)
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/7207/page.html
Boys destined to become knights are trained from early childhood in
the knightly arts. The first stage in their military apprenticeship
was served as a page in a noble's household. A page learned not only
about military matters but also about honor and courteous behavior,
especially towards women.
The son of a knight spent his earliest years with his nurse and
other women in the castle. During this time, he learned manners and
how to behave. Sometimes he was taught to read, but rarely to write.
In addition he started to learn to sing and play a musical instrument.
The turning point in his life came when he was given his first pony.
He was taught to look after horses and ride them expertly.
When he was about seven or eight, he was sent away from home to be
a page at the court of the king or some lord. A page's main duties
were to run errands, help the lady of the household with the chores,
and learn to come when he was called.
As he grew older, he was trained in the use of weapons,
particularly the sword and bow. He learned to handle a lance by
tilting (riding full speed) at the quintain, an upright post with a
pivoted crossbar with a shield on one end and a sack on another. The
idea is to hit the shield with his lance, and duck under the swinging
sack – most beginners are swept out of the saddle.
The page also started to learn the art of venery, or hunting. He
had to be able to recognize the spoor (footmarks) and the fewmets
(droppings) of the forest animals so that he could track them to their
lairs. To find his way safely through dense forest, he had to know how
to follow and leave a trail. Animals hunted included the otter,
badger, wild boar, red squirrel, roe deer, and bear. Hunting was
regarded as the ideal preparation for war. It required quick wits to
deal with unexpected developments.
A page also became familiar with falconry. When not hunting, the
falcon was kept hooded, and wore bells attached to its feet.
The Squire – a Knight in Training
At about 14, if the page had made satisfactory progress he became a
squire. He had the right to carry a shield emblazoned with armorial
bearings and to wear a helmet like a knight.
At this stage of training, he was placed with a knight who
continued his education and treated him as a companion and servant.
(unquote)
well, it's all most fascinating stuff,
anyway, isn't it!
I have enjoyed learning from this and
other sites...
lyra
lyra
> It has often been mentioned
> at HLAS that Christopher Marlowe
> might have been a page
> to Sir Philip Sidney...
>
> and it seems one of the pages to Sidney
> became an Earl.
>
> It occcurred to me that if
> Christopher Marlowe was in fact the
> son of William Parr,
> then his first cousin
> would be Henry Herbert, Earl of
> Pembroke (a son of Anne Parr)...
>
> Henry Herbert had married the sister
> of Sidney,
> when Marlowe was about 12,
> and hence the right sort of age
> for a page...
>
> leading to knighthood?
>
> lyra
It occurred to me today, that if
Christopher Marlowe
had been living with the Herbert (Earl of Pembroke)
household, as the son of William Parr, Herbert's uncle,
then he might easily have been thought by others
to be in fact the son of Herbert's father,
William Herbert, (Anne Parr's husband)...
he died in 1570.
However, I still believe William Parr
to be the more likely father (died 1571).
http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~humphrys/FamTree/Herbert/1st.earl.html
(quote)
1st Earl of Pembroke
Main Sources:
The Herberts of Wilton, Tresham Lever, 1967, John Murray, London,
[CUL] <../sources.html> 496.2.c.95.51
Sources yet to be consulted:
Most Wilton papers are in County Archives, County Library, Trowbridge,
Wiltshire (see map <http://uk.multimap.com/map/places.cgi?place=trowbridge&db=hcgaz>).
Old Herbert papers [seen in Wilton House library]
William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke <1st.earl.earlier.html>, K.G.,
Welsh, born 1506 [Wilton House guide book],
killed a man in a brawl in Bristol, escaped to France, returned to
England 1534 and mar soon after [according to Wilton House video, but
their guide book says 2nd Earl born 1534],
mar 1stly to Anne Parr <../Parr/index.html>[born 1514, descendant of
Edward III <../Royal/edward.iii.html>, sister of Catherine Parr] and
had issue:
Henry Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke <2nd.earl.html>. <../help.html>
<../help.html>
Sir Edward Herbert, of Powis Castle
<http://www.castlewales.com/powis.html>, Welshpool, Powys, Wales,
ancestor of Herbert, Baron Powis and Marquess of Powis [which family
stayed Catholic during Penal Times, involved in Jacobite
<../Royal/charles.i.html> resistance],
and female-line ancestor of Herbert, Earl of Powis, of the second
creation <sir.richard.html>.
rose with the Parrs when Catherine mar Henry VIII
<../Royal/henry.viii.html>1543, knighted 1543,
had been granted Wilton Abbey <wilton.html> and lands by Henry VIII by
1544,
he pulled down Abbey, built first Wilton House <wilton.html> 1540s,
was a guardian of the young Edward VI <../Royal/henry.viii.html>after
death of Henry VIII 1547,
K.G. 1549, cr 1st Earl of Pembroke by Edward VI 1551 by the influence
of his fellow Protestant John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland
<../Dudley/1st.duke.northumberland.html>,
Anne Parr died 20th Feb 1552, age 38 yrs,
married his son to Lady Catherine Grey
<../Grey/1st.duke.suffolk.html>1553 while Dudley married his son to
Lady Jane, managed to distance himself from Grey family after their
fall [later in 1577 his son married Dudley's grand-daughter],
mar 2ndly to Anne Talbot <../Talbot/1st.earl.shrewsbury.html>[born
est c.1520],
died at Hampton Court <http://www.uk-guide.com/london/wrenhamp.htm>,
17th Mar 1570, age 64 yrs, bur St.Paul's Cathedral.
Anne Talbot bur 8th Aug 1588, age est c.68 yrs.
The Clock Tower, E facade <wilton.e.html>, Wilton House.
This is the only bit of the old Tudor house left.
Photo 2003. See full size <Bitmaps/wilton.19.clip.full.jpg> and wider
shot <Bitmaps/wilton.19.full.jpg>.
(unquote)
lyra
> lyra wrote in message news:<4ec4c9f5.03050...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > It has often been mentioned
> > at HLAS that Christopher Marlowe
> > might have been a page
> > to Sir Philip Sidney...
> >
>
> Christopher Marlowe
> had been living with the Herbert (Earl of Pembroke)
> household, as the son of William Parr, Herbert's uncle,
> then he might easily have been thought by others
> to be in fact the son of Herbert's father,
> William Herbert, (Anne Parr's husband)...
> he died in 1570.
In fact he could also have been thought to be
a son of one of William Herbert's two sons,
Henry Herbert, Earl of Pembroke,
and Edward Herbert, Earl of Powis.
The first "suspect" for mother...
Katherine Marlowe.
However, there were of course plenty of other women
in England at the time!
* * * * * *
lyra
>
> However, I still believe William Parr
> to be the more likely father (died 1571).
>
>
> http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~humphrys/FamTree/Herbert/1st.earl.html
>
> (quote)
>
> 1st Earl of Pembroke
>
> Main Sources:
> The Herberts of Wilton, Tresham Lever, 1967, John Murray, London,
> 496.2.c.95.51
>
> Sources yet to be consulted:
>
> Most Wilton papers are in County Archives, County Library, Trowbridge,
> Wiltshire (see map <http://uk.multimap.com/map/places.cgi?place=trowbridge&db=hcgaz>).
>
> Old Herbert papers [seen in Wilton House library]
>
>
> William Herbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke , K.G.,
>
> Welsh, born 1506 [Wilton House guide book],
> killed a man in a brawl in Bristol, escaped to France, returned to
> England 1534 and mar soon after [according to Wilton House video, but
> their guide book says 2nd Earl born 1534],
>
> mar 1stly to Anne Parr [born 1514, descendant of
> Edward III , sister of Catherine Parr] and
> had issue:
>
> Henry Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke .
>
>
> Sir Edward Herbert, of Powis Castle
> <http://www.castlewales.com/powis.html>, Welshpool, Powys, Wales,
> ancestor of Herbert, Baron Powis and Marquess of Powis [which family
> stayed Catholic during Penal Times, involved in Jacobite
> resistance],
> and female-line ancestor of Herbert, Earl of Powis, of the second
> creation .
>
> rose with the Parrs when Catherine mar Henry VIII
> 1543, knighted 1543,
> had been granted Wilton Abbey and lands by Henry VIII by
> 1544,
> he pulled down Abbey, built first Wilton House 1540s,
>
> was a guardian of the young Edward VI after
> death of Henry VIII 1547,
> K.G. 1549, cr 1st Earl of Pembroke by Edward VI 1551 by the influence
> of his fellow Protestant John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland,
>
> Anne Parr died 20th Feb 1552, age 38 yrs,
>
> married his son to Lady Catherine Grey
> 1553 while Dudley married his son to
> Lady Jane, managed to distance himself from Grey family after their
> fall [later in 1577 his son married Dudley's grand-daughter],
>
> mar 2ndly to Anne Talbot [born
> est c.1520],
>
> died at Hampton Court <http://www.uk-guide.com/london/wrenhamp.htm>,
> 17th Mar 1570, age 64 yrs, bur St.Paul's Cathedral.
>
> Anne Talbot bur 8th Aug 1588, age est c.68 yrs.
>
>
>
> The Clock Tower, E facade, Wilton House.
>
> This is the only bit of the old Tudor house left.
>
> Photo 2003. See full size and wider
> shot .