Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.

Dismiss

EEK! He said piss!

1 view

Skip to first unread message

Martin Evans

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 2:00:22 AM10/26/03

Just took another look at that newsgroup place just down the road from the
wreck and caught this thread about the reason people leave the sport. One
guy was catching a bit of flack (well deserved I might add) and eventually a
couple of guys posted the comments pasted below. All in all I thought things
were pretty civil and what with these two comments being the harshest there
were I thought the guy got off pretty light. Well blow me down if a few
posts later a moderator doesn't come along and slap the two posters on the
wrists for crossing the line!

Maybe it's just me but if anything drives me away from the sport it'll be
the attitudes of those that continue to squash the character of the sport
and those that are in it. If someone has enough fortitude to throw himself
at the ground from two miles up several times a week I hardly think he
should need someone to wipe his tears away when bad words (and righteously
deserved) are directed at him and if he (or others) do, then I don't think I
need to spend any more of my time around those kinds of people. Jumping out
of an airplane was what initially drew me to skydiving but what kept me
coming back was the character of the people that skydived. Whatever they
were or did for a living during the week was usually hard to define from
their nature, character and behavior at the DZ at weekends. If the sport has
degraded nowadays to a point that it's felt necessary to slap down these two
posters for their harshness and subsequently depriving the sport of much of
its character, replacing it with today's electronically rigged limpwristed
wussyboys, that's enough to make me think that my day has most certainly
gone and I need to move along to something 'real'!

Of course I couldn't get away with saying this at the other place so I've
had to come here to the wreck to get it off my chest! Funny old world ain't
it!

------------------------------------------------------------
The Crime.......

And I bet you will be scared shitless the first time you have to bale out at
3 grand with an engine out....Otter babies always do.

You have so much to learn, yet you act like a skygod now at 100 jumps.
That's why you are getting flack.

Dissing a DZ since it does not have "Proper" bathrooms....What a cry baby!

DZ's in the "stix" as you say make more skydivers, and skydives than Perris
ever will.

You are the reason that people quit. Big ego, with very little skill but
you scream the loudest, and cry at everything that does not go your way.

-----------------------------------------------------

Great comments Ron.I feel embarrassed for you Scott,,,,you remind me of the
guy with piss stained pants with an open zipper,standing in front of the
room complaining ,,,,about what ,you don't even know! Look in the mirror,its
really silly your comments about everything and so little experience to
boot...lurk and learn and jump some more...geez
smile, be nice, enjoy life

----------------------------------------------------

I don't think many people will argue (in all sincerity) the point that the
wreck has degraded to next to useless as a skydiving discussion forum and
that the other place serves a good purpose in that respect. But jeez, let's
keep it real guys, (sangiro I hope you're reading this) this ain't a sport
filled with catholic schoolgirls, more's the pity (see, saying that alone
would get my posting privileges taken away at the other place) or the
women's institute knitting circle. Having watched this newsgroup degrade to
it's present state I can agree to a need for a moderated board but some of
these guys have gotten too broad a brim on their white hats and are taking
their positions way to seriously. There has to be a little leeway for the
character of those that are in the sport to express themselves and state
THEIR views! The way it is there now, the meaningful discussions don't get
to the necessary depths in a lot of cases, due to some of the moderators
heavy handedness and the threat of lost posting privileges. I think a lot of
people that can provide value to the board shy away from posting because its
far too lilywhite for them to get too chew through the fat and get to the
meat of a discussion (that's certainly why I rarely respond) and just when a
thread starts to get you sitting up the sheriff comes riding into town and
takes away the rope, even before the first of the thirteen twists have been
formed!

Well, now I've coughed that up (albeit in the wrong place) I'll be ably to
sleep now!

G'night all!

Blue ones,
Stay Safe.

Martin Evans

Message has been deleted

CRWMike

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 8:19:34 AM10/26/03

Aside from making coffee and a sandwich waiting for the messages to
download, it's taken the place of the wreck. Is it over moderated? Yes.
One moderator in particular is overcontrolling and mostly flexes her mucscle
in the 'women's' forum but lately has branched out to the other forums.

Michael

"Martin Evans" <Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com> wrote in message
news:BBC0DBC3.B72E%Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com...

jsk

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 8:40:24 AM10/26/03

Well, I don't know but it seems to me that if you go to someone's place,
you abide by his rules.

Sangiro's rules aren't too onerous, after all, posts like the following
are allowed:

>http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=15816;

As you accurately pointed out, r.s has ceased to have any skydiving
related utility. How many regular posters are left? A dozen, maybe?

Tom B

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 3:40:11 PM10/26/03

Nice post Martin. I fully understand you feelings about that other place. It
has been too long ago for me to remember all the details, but my brief
experience there matches yours. A young skydiver posted his horror at having
been strongly counseled that day after making a vary dangerous error on a
dive. He objected to the tone the senior jumper used after they landed. I
posted a reply roughly saying that the young man should thank the senior
jumper, as he was simply trying to save his fucking life. I was counseled
for being too direct with a new jumper and for my harsh language. I have
rarely gone back.

Skydiving is a very harsh sport that does not easily forgive errors or
stupidity. My words pale beside that reality. Sugar coating messages to
someone that has had hours to consider his situation and yet still seems
more focused on the language used than his error seems to have little
educational value.

Tom B

"Martin Evans" <Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com> wrote in message
news:BBC0DBC3.B72E%Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com...

> Just took another look at that newsgroup place just down the road from the

Jan Meyer

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 7:27:14 PM10/26/03

Martin Evans wrote:
>
> Just took another look at that newsgroup place just down the road from the
> wreck and caught this thread about the reason people leave the sport. One
> guy was catching a bit of flack (well deserved I might add) and eventually a
> couple of guys posted the comments pasted below. All in all I thought things
> were pretty civil and what with these two comments being the harshest there
> were I thought the guy got off pretty light. Well blow me down if a few
> posts later a moderator doesn't come along and slap the two posters on the
> wrists for crossing the line!
>

snip

>
> Of course I couldn't get away with saying this at the other place so I've
> had to come here to the wreck to get it off my chest! Funny old world ain't
> it!
>

Well Martin that other place has a really bizarre culture. It also has a
TON of noise with no kill files.

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=525755
http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=714793
(you have to be logged in to see this one)

My take is similar to yours, but you already knew that.

I read that leaving the sport thread when it was new. I was going to
post something about losing on average 7 friends per year now, but they
wouldn't understand that. Peak was 12 per year starting the month Sandy
Wambach went in. The past 12 months is 11.

Never thought I'd say that the debates with CRWMike and Mr MOM were the
good ole days.

As for the person over there that I mentioned would be a pancake one
day. I believe that more now than ever. Hope I'm wrong tho.

There is definitely a different jumper 'persona' jumping today.

Jan Meyer

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 7:29:59 PM10/26/03

Martin Evans wrote:

this is a test - yeah really
to see if i can post with a mangeled email addy

Jan Meyer

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 7:31:42 PM10/26/03

Jan Meyer wrote:

wow is that wierd.??
I get a ton of error messages & the message goes thru anyway.
What will Bill think of next???

JimBo

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 8:05:07 PM10/26/03

>Subject: Re: EEK! He said piss!
>From: Jan Meyer AerosoftwareNOSPAM@MakeItHappen_N_O_S_P_A_M.com
>Date: 10/26/2003 4:27 PM Pacific

>
>There is definitely a different jumper 'persona' jumping today.

Its the "fastfood" generation Jan...they dont want to spend the time it took
for we older jumpers to really really learn the sport...they want it
all..........NOW.
As for DZ,com....they have nice kittys and boobies ....:o)

Jim D-10154
funjumper ...retired hoe
Man small... why fall ? Skies call... thats all.

JDub

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 9:18:34 PM10/26/03

Maybe this faq should be updated and posted regularly, perhaps with some
*voluntary* posting guidelines/etiquette. Those that fail to adhere to them
can be killfiled at each individual readers discretion?

rec.skydiving FAQ Sheet

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Archive-name: sports/skydiving/faq
Last-modified: 8/13/97
PARACHUTE : An aerodynamic deceleration device. (FAA)

This posting constitutes a dynamic compilation of Frequently Asked Questions
concerning the sport of skydiving, related activities, and the news group
rec.skydiving. It is posted on or about the second and fourth Mondays of
every month.

First, the news group rec.skydiving is an unmoderated group for the
discussion of issues relating to sport skydiving. It obviously is not
limited to skydiving as there are many sports that share technology,
history, common interests, and avid proponents; but these tend to be minor
distractions for the hard core jumper :-). News or events to be held, or
post-event reviews are commonly posted, as are questions about equipment,
skills, regulations, theory, etc. And plain ol' reminiscing over "the good
ol' days" by the old timers, and long exuberant descriptions of newcomer's
first jumps are posted here as well.

Skydiving is not just a sport, it's a lifestyle (not to be confused with
bungee jumping which is just a sport :-).

It seems there are a great many new readers every year of rec.skydiving,
many of which stumbled across it and found it interesting but have never
jumped. After a time, they seem to always ask the same questions. So in an
effort to promote the sport, minimize redundant postings, and in general
continue the camaraderie of fellow free spirits here is now the
"Rec.Skydiving F.A.Q. Sheet". If your question is not answered in this
document, please feel free to post it to the net. If we get tired of
answering it (:-), we'll append it to the FAQ sheet. The information
disseminated in this FAQ sheet is generally related to the sport within the
United States. However, much of the information is applicable world-wide as
well. If you need specifics for a given geographical area, post it. Someone
from that region can then reply.

The questions are not ordered in their "asking frequency". Instead, I have
tried to order them so as to provide the information in a more easily
understood manner.

The Most Frequently Asked Questions are:

a.. How does one learn to skydive?
b.. What are the age requirements?
c.. What are the physical requirements?
d.. What does the training consist of?
e.. How do I tell a good Drop Zone from poor one?
f.. What if my parachute doesn't open?
g.. How fast do you fall?
h.. How hard is the landing?
i.. How much does it cost?
j.. I'm a skydiving student, and I'm having trouble with something, can I
get some help and advice?
k.. Where can I try Skysurfing or BASE jumping?
l.. Where can I find out more about Hang/Paragliding?
m.. "How do you breathe in freefall?" and other Whuffo questions.
Other Information provided in this file are:
a.. Movie Myths
b.. Appendix of abbreviations
c.. List of Magazines and Skydiving Periodicals
d.. Information about rec.skydiving FTP/WWW archive site.
e.. Information about obtaining rec.skydiving/FTP via Email
f.. Information about learning to jump outside of the USA
g.. Disclaimer

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

How does one learn to skydive?
One looks in the telephone directory (Yellow Pages) under "Parachuting" or
"Skydiving and Parachute Jumping Instructions" to find a local parachuting
operation - normally referred to as a "drop zone" (DZ). A phone call will
generally provide you with enough information to make arrangements to attend
the First Jump Course and/or how to reach the DZ. You can also call the
United States Parachute Association (USPA, 1440 Duke St., Alexandria, VA
22314) at (703)-836-3495 to get the name of an affiliated drop zone in your
area. A friend or acquaintance who has jumped previously may also be able to
give you a recommendation.

Most DZs will offer the First Jump Course (FJC) at least once each weekend.
Some will offer it during the week or several times during the weekend. You
will need to contact your local DZ to determine their scheduling. The FJC
consists of about 4-6 hours of ground school followed by your jump - weather
permitting.

There are several different types of training you can take: Static Line,
Accelerated Freefall, or Tandem . They are described below in greater
detail. However, not all drop zones offer all these options, so you should
ask the DZ which type(s) of training they provide.

Some drop zones have promotional videos they will sell you (~$10) that
describe the training and show you what it is all about. Almost every DZ
these days uses videos for training aids and will be glad to let you view
them (for free!) if you stop by. They will mail you a brochure and other
detailed information upon request as well.

It is your safety at stake and your responsibility to look after it. If you
have reservations about making your first jump, make the effort to visit the
DZ, check it out, meet the people and staff. They will be glad to see you,
and you will be much more confident and comfortable having done so, and
consequently have a much better time!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

What are the age requirements?
Most Dropzones will require you to be 18 years of age to make a skydive.
Some dropzones in some states will allow 16 year olds to jump with parental
consent. So, if you are under 16, you will just have to wait; take up some
odd jobs, and start saving your money.

On the other side, there is no maximum age. See the following question to
determine if skydiving is appropriate for you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

What are the physical requirements?
In general, the prospective student should be in reasonably good physical
shape, this is a sport after all. You will be required wear around 35 lbs of
equipment, endure opening shock, maneuver the canopy, land, and possibly
trudge great distances on foot. You will experience 30 degree swings in
temperature, atmospheric pressure changes, 4 hours of lecture, and lots of
beer. It's grueling (:-).

But seriously, problems may arise where a prospect is too heavy (over
~250lbs/ 110kg, see below) or if they have medical conditions which may
impair them during the activity. Someone who experiences fainting spells,
blackouts, or has a weak heart should not be jumping. Someone with
respiratory illness may have a problem due to atmospheric changes at
altitude. The better your physical condition, the more you will enjoy the
experience. This being said, very few people have medical or physical
conditions which actually preclude jumping.

Most dropzones will try to work with you. If you have a question, ask them,
and as always, ask your doctor. You may be surprised at the relatively few
physical constraints involved.

Concerning weight restrictions, there are two primay concerns. First, does
the drop zone have a parachute system which you can both legally use and
safely land? Second, if you are going to be at the top-end of the safe
weight range for a particular parachute, are you in relatively good shape?
An imperfect landing will be much less liekely to injure an athletic person.
If this is unclear, consider the difference between a 5'10" linebacker who
weighs 240lbs, and a 5'10" channel surfer of the same weight. If the former
has a bad landing, he'll probably brush himself off and get up. The latter
may very well injure himself substantially, lacking both the strength to
withstand landing and coordination to do a good Parachute Landing Fall(PLF).
With this in mind, use the following table as a guide.

< 200lbs
Almost every DZ should be willing to let you jump.
200-230lbs
The majority of DZ's should be willing to let you jump. Being being in
relatively good shape is a plus. Beyond about 230lbs, most reserves canopies
are no longer strictly legal for you to use.
230-250lbs
Some DZ's may take you, but will likely insist that you be in good
shape, i.e. not a couch-potato. You must recognize that there is a greater
chance of injury, particularly if you are not somewhat athletic.
> 250lbs
Very few DZ's will be able to let you skydive. They are likely to use
converted Tandem gear. Without this type of equipment, you will need to be
in excellent physical condition, and be willing to accept a greatly
increased chance of injury in case of a bad landing.
Please note that this table is only a guideline. Call your local Drop Zone
and discuss the matter with them. Also, there are experienced skydivers who
are quite heavy -- however, they likely learned when they were lighter and
had mastered landing before they gaining the additional weight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

What does the training consist of?
The FJC teaches the student every thing they need to know to safely make
their first jump. There are several different programs available for first
jumpers; the one you choose will depend on your personal preferences and
circumstances. The differences of each are summarized below:

Static Line (S/L)

This method has evolved over the last ~30 years from its military origins
into a successful method for training sport parachutists. The student gets
4-5 hours of ground training and is then taken to an altitude of about 3000
feet for the jump. The jump itself consists of a simple "poised" exit from
the strut of a small single engine Cessna aircraft. As the student falls
away from the plane, the main canopy is deployed by a "static line" attached
to the aircraft. The student will experience about two to three seconds of
falling as the parachute opens.

Subsequent S/L jumps require about 15 minutes of preparation. After 2 good
static line jumps, the student will be trained to pull their ripcord for
themselves. The student then does 3 more static line jumps where they
demonstrate this ability by pulling a dummy ripcord as they leave the plane
(the static line is still initiating the deployment). The student is then
cleared to do their first actual freefall.

The first freefall is a "clear & pull", where the student initiates the pull
sequence immediately upon leaving the aircraft. Next is a 10 second delay
jump. Subsequent jumps go to progressively higher altitudes with longer
delays. After 20 freefalls, and meeting certain other basic requirements,
the student receives their A license and is cleared off student status.

Accelerated Free Fall (AFF)

The AFF program was instituted in 1982 as an "accelerated" learning process
as compared to the traditional static line progression. The AFF program will
give you a true taste of modern sport skydiving.

The ground training is a bit more extensive than S/L (~5 hours) because the
student will be doing a 50 second freefall (that's right!) on his/her very
first jump. The student will exit the aircraft at 10,000-12,000 feet along
with two AFF Jumpmasters (JM) who will assist the student during freefall.
The jumpmasters maintain grips on the student from the moment they leave the
aircraft until opening, assisting the student as necessary to fall stable,
perform practice ripcord pulls, monitor altitude, etc. The student then
pulls his/her own ripcord at about 4000 ft.

The AFF program is a 7 level program. Levels 1, 2, & 3 require two freefall
Jumpmasters to accompany the student. These dives concentrate on teaching
basic safety skills such as altitude awareness, body position, stability
during freefall and during the pull sequence, and most importantly-
successful ripcord pull. On level 3, the JMs will release the student in
freefall for the first time, to fly completely on their own.

Levels 4, 5, 6, & 7 require only one freefall JM (less $$) and teach the
student air skills such as turns, forward movement and docking on other
people, frontloops, backloops, "superman" exits from the plane, etc.

Each AFF level is designed to take one jump, and requires about 45 minutes
of training. After successfully performing the objectives of each level, the
student moves on to the next level.

After graduating Level 7, the student enters a more free format stage called
"Level 8" where they practice and hone their skills by themselves and in
small groups until they obtain 20 freefalls and qualify for their A license.

Tandem jumps.

Tandem jumps are meant to offer an introduction to the sport. They allow the
neophyte to "take a ride" with an experienced jumper. A tandem jump requires
from 15 to 45 minutes of ground preparation (it is not a First Jump Course).
It consists of an experienced jumper called a "tandemmaster" and the
passenger. The passenger and tandem master each wear a harness, however only
the master wears the parachutes. The passengers's harness attaches to the
front of the master's harness and the two of them freefall together for 30
seconds, open together, and land together under one Really_BIG_Parachute.

Tandem jumping provides an obvious advantage for the adventurous spirit who
cannot adequately meet the physical or proficiency requirements for the S/L
or AFF jumps. By relying on Tandem Master's skills, they will still be able
to experience the thrill of skydiving.

Because the tandem training is not a First Jump Course, if you decide to
pursue the sport, you will still have to attend a FJC in either the AFF or
Static Line curriculum.

It should be noted that, in the United States, tandem jumping is still
classed by the Federal Aviation Administration as an "experimental" form of
Parachuting, and us such operates under waiver to certain Federal Aviation
Regulations regarding required equipment. Currently the USPA (see below) is
not involved in the certification or training of tandem Masters or in the
setting of minimum tandem safety standards. These functions are performed
solely by, and at the discretion of, the manufacturers of the tandem
equipment. Among many experienced jumpers, tandem jumping remains a very
controversial subject as to its safety and utility for novice training.

In all of these training methods, students are taught normal and emergency
procedures for all aspects of the jump - climb to altitude, exit, opening,
canopy control, and landing. They are also shown the equipment and go over
it so that they understand how it works.

Nearly all student training centers now utilize sport skydiving gear. No
more military surplus stuff. Students have light-weight harness/container
systems in aesthetic colors, high performance canopies designed for
students. No more paraboots -- students use their own tennis shoes. No more
heavy motorcycle helmets -- students use lightweight sporting helmets.
Ground-to-air radio for canopy control assistance, air-to-air video, on and
on...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

How do I tell a good Drop Zone from poor one?
Most dropzones that provide regular student training are "USPA Affiliated".
The United States Parachute Association (USPA) is the representative body
for sport parachuting within the US, and a member of the FAI (the
international equivalent). The USPA defends the sport's interests before the
FAA and other regulating/lawmaking bodies at all levels of government. It
also develops and monitors safety and training doctrine for the sport. Other
benefits include liability insurance for students and DZs in the case of
damage to property, the monthly magazine Parachutist, etc.

The USPA has had tremendous success instituting rating programs for
Jumpmasters, Instructors, and Instructor-Examiners to ensure that only
properly trained and qualified personnel work with students. You should
insist on USPA Instructors and Jumpmasters.

Some USPA-affiliated DZ's have not been diligent in using only
Currently-rated Instructors and Jumpmasters. Do not be afraid to ask to see
your Instructor or Jumpmaster's rating card. It should show the appropriate
rating and expiration date. Also note that currently, Tandem Jumpmasters are
certified by the equipment manufacturer, not USPA.

USPA affiliation is not required, and does not guarantee a DZ to be a "good"
DZ, and non-affiliation does not mean the DZ is "bad". However, the USPA,
through their diligence and caution, has compiled an excellent safety record
over the years.

These are just guidelines. You should always check it out before you jump.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

What if your parachute doesn't open?
Clearly, this is the most Frequently-Asked-Question posed by all prospective
jumpers.

By law (FAA regulations), all intentional parachute jumps must be made with
a single harness, dual parachute system with both a main canopy AND a
reserve canopy. In other words, you have a second (or spare) canopy in case
the first one fails to open properly.

However, it must be noted that the technology utilized in today's sport
parachuting equipment is light years ahead of the old military surplus gear
used in the '60s and '70s. The canopies are drastically different from the
classic G.I. Joe round parachutes. The materials are stronger, lighter and
last longer, the packing procedures are simpler, the deployment sequence is
much more refined, etc.

The reserve canopies are even more carefully designed and packed. The
reserve parachute must be inspected and repacked every 120 days by an FAA
rated parachute Rigger - even if it has not been used during that time.

The student's main canopy is always packed either by a rigger or under a
rigger's direct supervision by experienced packers.

There are also additional safety features employed to ensure canopy
deployment such as Automatic Activation Devices (AAD) and Reserve Static
Lines (RSL) which add still more layers of safety.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

How fast do you fall?
When you leave the aircraft, you are moving horizontally at the same speed
as the aircraft, typically 90-110MPH. During the first 10 seconds, a
skydiver accelerates up to about 115-130MPH straight down. (A tandem pair
uses a drouge chute to keep them from falling much faster than this). It is
possible to change your body position to vary your rate of fall. In a
standard face-to-earth position, you can change your fall rate up or down a
few (10-20) miles per hour. However, by diving or "standing up" in freefall,
any experienced skydiver can learn to reach speeds of over 160-180MPH.
Speeds of over 200MPH require significant practice to achieve. The record
freefall speed, done without any special equipment, is 321MPH. Obviously, it
is desirable to slow back down to 110MPH before parachute opening.

Once under parachute, decent rates of 1000ft./min. are typical. A lighter
student with a bigger canopy may come down much more slowly, and, obviously,
a heavier person may have a somewhat faster decent. Experienced jumper's can
canopies descend (in normal glide) at up to 1500ft./min. During radical
turns, the decent rate can go well over 2000ft./min.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

How hard is the landing?
The canopies used today bear little resemblance to the classic round
canopies of years gone by. Today, nearly all jumpers and jump schools use
"square" canopies for parachuting. These canopies are actually rectangular
in shape, and when open, act like an airplane wing (or an airfoil). They are
more like gliders than umbrellas.

The aerodynamics of the square canopy provide it with exceptional
maneuverability, allowing the jumpers to land almost anywhere they wish.
This wing shape also provides tippy-toe soft landings for even the novice
jumper. The days of landing like a sack of flour are history. Most students
land standing up on their first jump.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

How much does it cost?
Prices vary from DZ to DZ. Typically, the S/L course runs ~$120-$150, AFF
from $250-$300, and the tandem from ~$140-$200. Some DZs can provide a
freefall videoman to tape your skydive for an additional $50-75. These
prices include the ground school and the first jump.

After completing their first jump, skydiving tradition allows each student
to express their appreciation and admiration for their newfound skydiving
friends for their assistance in successfully achieving this milestone in
their life by purchasing (from a local establishment) and presenting to them
a case of beer. This case, customarily a fine imported beer, is
ceremoniously iced down for consumption at the end of the day. The cost
generally runs $15-20.

(It should be noted that while jumpers have a reputation for major no-holds-
barred parties, the use of drugs and/or alcohol on the DZ premises is
strictly prohibited during jump operations for what should be obvious
reasons. This rule is observed and enforced by both jumpers and management.)

After the first jump, the cost of each successive jump decreases in stages
as less supervision is required. Once off student status, and owning your
own gear, jumps will cost about $15-17 to 13,000' (about 65 seconds of
freefall). Many drop zones have discount programs as well that can further
decrease the cost of jumps. A file containing prices for experienced jumpers
is available via WWW at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~eap/prices.html, at
the FTP site described below, and via E-mail from e...@phase.stanford.edu
(Subject: SEND DZ PRICE LIST). To add your DZ to the list, see information
contained therein. The list includes locations, prices, planes, phone
number, Internet contact, and web page locations.

Equipment can run from $1000 to $3500 depending on what you want to spend.
There is a used equipment market (much like the used car market) which can
SAVE you loads of money, or you can custom order everything
brand-spankin-new with your own personalized colors and sizes, which will
COST you loads of money (:-). You can buy it all at once or a piece at a
time as finances allow. Generally, you shouldn't worry about buying gear
until you are off student status or close to your A license.

Of course, all prices are in US dollars (as opposed to dinars or rubles :-).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

I'm a skydiving student, and I'm having trouble with something, can I get
some help and advice?
Yes, you can ask any question on rec.skydiving about learning to skydive, be
it trouble with turns, packing, exits, or what-have-you. However, please
recognize the person best equipped to help you with your difficulties is
probably your regular real-life instructor. Be sure to ask him the same
question you ask on rec.skydiving! Don't take or act on any advice given on
rec.skydiving without talking to your instructor first -- not everyone here
is an instructor, and no one knows your history and experience better than
your instructor.

Advice given on rec.skydiving is offered without warranty. It is not
uncommon to see both excellent and downright dangerous advice given. Talk
with a rated instructor or jumpmaster (or your country's local equivalent)
before changing your equipment, airplane, exit, freefall, deployment,
emergency, canopy control, landing, packing or any other skydiving-related
procedures, particularly if suggested anywhere on rec.skydiving. Remember,
skydiving is dangerous, the participant assumes all risks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Where can I try Skysurfing or BASE jumping?
It a nutshell, you can't -- unless you're already a very experienced
skydiver.

"Skysurfing" or "Skyboarding" refers to skydiving with a small board,
similar to a snowboard, attached to your feet. This allows for some radical
maneauvers in freefall. However, such jumps should only be attempted by
expert skydivers, and preferably after long discussion with one of the many
skysurfers who have experience. Some board manufacturers and experienced
skydsurfers offer instructional classes or videotapes.

BASE jumping involves jumping off of fixed objects (like Buildings,
Antennas, Spans (bridges), or Earth (cliffs)), and landing under a
parachute. While being an expert skydiver isn't an absolute requirement, you
need a great deal of experience in parachute packing, canopy control, quick
reflexes, and body position awareness before this can be attempted with any
real safety. Start with skydiving, and then go from there. Furthermore,
there are very few places where one may BASE jump legally, as most locations
are private property.

Back to the table of contents

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

"Where can I find out more about Hang/Paragliding?"
rec.skydiving isn't the proper forum for the discussion of either of these
activities. However, for those who are interested Paragliding or
Hang-Gliding, there is a list server for these topics.

To subscribe send a message to:

hang-glidi...@lists.utah.edu
with a subject line saying:
subscribe
For a daily digest this message to:
hang-glidin...@lists.utah.edu
As of 5/15/95, rec.aviation.hang-gliding exists. This is an appropriate
location to post questions concerning hang-gliding or paragliding.
Back to the table of contents

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

"How do you breathe in freefall?"
and other Whuffo Questions.

"How do you breath in freefall?"
Through genetically developed gills.
This falls into the realm of urban folklore. One CAN breathe in freefall -
if it were necessary. However, due to the high speed of terminal freefall
(and much higher speeds in vertical freefall dives), the jumper's body is
exposed to O2 molecules at a much higher rate than someone walking around on
the ground. The body is able to absorb the necessary O2 through the skin.
This is why jumpers flap their cheeks in freefall, it presents a larger
surface area to the airstream for oxygen osmosis. Once under canopy, the
jumper resumes breathing normally.
This is also why jumpers do not jump on cloudy days or when they might risk
going through clouds. The moisture in the clouds can condense on their
exposed skin surfaces preventing the absorption of the necessary oxygen
resulting in suffocation. AADs are recommended for jumpers in climates where
weather is a factor.

gypcees

unread,

Oct 26, 2003, 9:23:37 PM10/26/03

Martin, it's waaaaaaaay tooooo simple, you quit doing something when you
either don't like it, aren't good enough to satisfy your id or you have to
for various reasons.

No other excuse.

People need to take the heat, get some balls or shut up & take it.

Troy

"Martin Evans" <Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com> wrote in message
news:BBC0DBC3.B72E%Marti...@skyeyeskydiving.com...
>
>
>
>

David Ferree

unread,

Oct 27, 2003, 4:00:20 PM10/27/03

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 07:40:24 -0600, jsk <kal...@ameritech.net> wrote:

>As you accurately pointed out, r.s has ceased to have any skydiving
>related utility. How many regular posters are left? A dozen, maybe?

Translation: John says "Too many people take exception to my
socialist, one world government, USA bashing comments that I make
here, so I'll jump on the 'not about skydiving' bandwagon to help
quash those people."

David

Mr. MOM

unread,

Oct 28, 2003, 2:47:35 PM10/28/03

>Skydiving is a very harsh sport that does not easily forgive errors or
>stupidity. My words pale beside that reality. Sugar coating messages to
>someone that has had hours to consider his situation and yet still seems
>more focused on the language used than his error seems to have little
>educational value.
>
>Tom B

Interesting....isn't it? Yours and Martins anecdotes are a shining example of
where the sport has gone, compared to where it came from.

There's no argument that far more people visit and post at Sangiro's place, and
Sangiro loves to brag about that fact. He and others love to brag that his
place is much nicer and friendlier, and they chalk it up to the fact that they
openly censor people who bite a bit too hard for their liking.

Certainly, this is arguably true based on the most often read complaint, that
the wreck is full of mean nasty people who do nothing but flame each other. Not
enough relevant skydiving talk being the second biggest complaint.

With that said......try to absorb Tom's first two sentances at the top of this
post

"Skydiving is a very harsh sport that does not easily forgive errors or
stupidity. My words pale beside that reality."

Taken in context as a rebuttal for those that whine about the harshness of the
wreck.....it helps to direct the topic towards that "big Elephant in the room"
that I (for at least the past 3 years) and a few others have been talking
about, but most folks choose to ignore.

That topic being.........ATTITUDE

Yes......we all love skydiving for the sense of freedom and happy happy joy joy
culture. Yet.....it seems that more and more people either are not entering
into the sport with an understanding of it's lethal harshness, or they choose
to ignore it.

My bet is......and anecdotal experience is.....they are not being made aware of
the harsh realities of the sport. Too often, at far too many DZ's.....for the
purpose of not wanting to scare away revenue......the leadership mandates that
the lethal side of the sport gets glossed over.

Hence....we now have a whole generation of skydivers who are ignorant to the
fact, or choose to ignore the fact that this is a sport that can kill you dead
even if you've got your shit together at all times.

Having grown up within the Aviation industry, I had a very good understanding
of what I was getting into when I started jumping. I had a good understanding
of how flying and jumping tends to appeal to peoples ego's and arrogance. I
also had a good understanding that survivability in these activities has very
much to do with a persons "attitude" in how they approach it, knowing
themselves, and being honest about their own abilities and limitations. In
other words.....keeping your ego and arrogance on a leash.

Even in my case.....as a person who entered into the sport with eyes wide
open......I (as many others do) succumbed to my own ego and arrogance, and
became one of those 200 jump wonders. Thankfully (and I silently thank them
daily) my mentors were worried enough about me to get downright "kick my ass"
severely harsh with me. So harsh that I eventually found myself alone at the
DZ. Not because the others weren't my friends, but rather because they were.
They didn't want to be too close to a person who was on the path of making
himself dead......and.....with cruel harshness.......they told me that as often
as they could.

Many would think , these were some pretty mean people that they wouldn't want
to hang around with. Personally.....I see these folks as some of the best
friends a person could ever have. They cared enough about me to get downright
nasty with me, in their attempts to change my ATTITUDE, and keep me from
killing myself. They taught me much during that period, but the relevant lesson
is, that no matter how mean and harsh they got with me, it pales in comparison
to how harsh it is when you impact mother earth.

Take a good look at skydiving related posts here on the wreck, at the DZ, and
yes...even at the nicey, nicey place Sangiro offers....and it becomes blaringly
clear that most people either choose to ignore, or don't even recognize the
"big Elephant". We've gone over...time and again....the pros and cons of AAD's,
deployment systems, teaching methods, etc, and most of the converstaion focuses
on the object, or proper sequence, performance limitations, or proper use.
Rarely.....does the debate ever contain the topic of how any of these things
cultivate attitudes. Guess what folks.......they do, and a persons
ATTITUDE......is a very important factor in who stays in the sport, who leaves,
who lives, and who dies.

As an example. I have made it very clear that I'm not a proponent of AAD's.
Predictably, most people on the other side of the fence have either ignored or
misunderstood my arguments as to why. The gadget itself.....is good. The Cypres
due to it's reliabiltiy, is a valuable piece of equipment. No doubt......there
is a high probability that it will save your life if you get yourself into it's
firing altitude. Yet.....what is ignored, or poo-pooed by most....is that it
can also be a main factor in an untimely demise. What is even more poo-pooed or
ignored, is that the introduction of the Cypres, has affected the ATTITUDE'S of
too many in our community. The same can be said that AFF becoming the most
popular method of training, has also affected the ATTITUDE'S of far too many
jumpers.

Ask any old timer who started jumping pre Cypres, and pre AFF.....and they will
all tell you that they fully understood.....from jump #1 on.....that at some
time before impact, they better god damned well better do something to save
their pathetic fucking life. They had an attitude of survival, and an attitude
that only they could keep themselves alive.

The same can not be said today. Pre cypres days, everyone had the attitude that
they were jumping without a safety net. Nowdays.....too many people believe
they are jumping with a safety net. The "attitude" has changed from relying on
yourself to stay alive, to "that gadget on my back will insure my
survivability." That second "attitude"........GETS PEOPLE KILLED !

As a student of S/L......and a former Instructor of S/L, AFF, and Tandem......I
have witnessed up close and personal, the different attitudes the different
methods cultivate. I am a proponent of S/L over AFF and Tandem and the sole
reason for it, is S/L cultivates the best ATTITUDE. It's evident in the
students actions. With S/L.those students fully and completely understand that
it is only them out there. It's all up to them, because no one else is there to
tell them what to do, or do it for them. Far too many times....even with
students who seemed to have their shit together during training........AFF
students have frozen, fumbled too long for a main pull, or stared at me
pleadingly to do something, during a dive. They know from the get go....no
matter how much they're told it's all up to them......that someone is along to
hold their hand. With S/L the students attitude is "I got to save
myself"...while in AFF, the attitude is "if I fuck up, my Instructor will be
there for me. That second attitude.....GETS PEOPLE KILLED !

Now.......what is even more disturbing is.......the Attitude todays DZ's
cultivate. Like a certain other person who's been recently mentioned on the
wreck....I too was fired from a DZ for speaking up about safety concerns. DZ's
don't want friction, or someone speaking in a manner that may be alarming to
the masses. Rather.....they want all their workers to project happiness, and be
all nicey, nicey to everyone. You can't hurt someones feelings, by pointing out
how they are on the path to death because of their utter stupidity,
incompetence, arrogance, or ego. No........that might chase people away....and
everyone knows.....that reduces revenue.

Well....guess what.......Dropzone.com is aptly named. The attitude's one see's
over there, are a general reflection of the attitudes you'll find on most Drop
Zones today. Be nice, have fun, don't hurt that idiots feelings and make him
skulk away, and don't say anything that does not portray happy happy joy joy.
It's all phony. Just like what's really going on at most DZ's. I often laugh,
when I see a post from someone who just visited another DZ, and extolls about
what a great place it is. I laugh because often times it's about a DZ that I
have worked at, and I know whats really going on behind the scenes. Oh
sure....the person probably had the time of their life.....but...that doesn't
make it the awsome place they claim it is. I too have raved about certain DZ's
after visiting them. Then.......I went and worked at those DZ's. What a fucking
nightmare some of them turned out to be.

Like everyone else.....I tend to like my newsgroup to be like my DZ's. I'll
stick with this NG.
All the complaints aside about this place, there's one significant thing this
place has that the other never will. HONESTY !. No....I'm not saying everyone
here is honest.....I'm saying it's an honest place. It is what it is, and thats
what it is. No gloss, no phoniness, no restrictions.

If someone is a god damned idiot.......someone else tells them.
If someone is a "dead man breathing"......someone else tells them.
If someone is an arrogant egotistical piece of shit...someone tells them.
If someone is really worth listening to.......smart people eventually recognize
it.....no matter how harsh their words.

Skydiving is harsh. My friends got harsh with me, because I forgot that fact.
Like myself.....I'm certain that others who speak harshly on this NG...do so
not because we're mean people, but because we care about others how display
ATTITUDES that will kill them. It's an honest attitude in my eyes, and I
personally have no desire to hang out with phonies.

I may not like everyone on this NG, or I may disagree with others on almost
anything, but I'd rather hang out with them who are willing to let it all hang
out and show themselves for who they are.......then join in with a bunch of
pukes who's first rule is "you can't be real". Oh.......and those phonies that
are here on this NG.......you know....the ones usually complaining about the
lack of skydiving content.......or whining about how mean others
are......well........I believe I'm in most of their kill files anyway. This is
a Skydiving NG for skydivers. A place where people with something unique in
common can converse with one another. Gee.......sitting around the DZ
campfire........do we always keep the conversation on skydiving? Well....this
place is no different.

Just my $1.50 on the subject. The wreck and the dot com, are a reflection of
how the ATTITUDE'S in our sport have changed. I too find it pretty sad.

USPA SUCKS
...and if you have to ask why...then you are a fool.

Mr. MOM

The only guarantee in Skydiving is ... you WILL land !

Message has been deleted

Jen

unread,

Oct 28, 2003, 3:41:42 PM10/28/03

Right On!!!

"Mr. MOM" <mom...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031028144735...@mb-m28.aol.com...

David Ferree

unread,

Oct 28, 2003, 7:20:17 PM10/28/03

Mr. MOM wrote:

>Oh.......and those phonies that
>are here on this NG.......you know....the ones usually complaining about the
>lack of skydiving content.......or whining about how mean others
>are......well........I believe I'm in most of their kill files anyway.

Yeah, you have to pretty much be ready to be a total outcast once you
decide to go down that unpopular path called reality.

And let's face it, talking about nothing but skydiving all the time
would be pretty boring.

Oh, and.... good post, Mike.

David

Livendive

unread,

Oct 29, 2003, 12:51:16 PM10/29/03

"chuck" <cgilb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031028153137...@mb-m07.aol.com...

> >>Skydiving is a very harsh sport that does not easily forgive errors or
> >>stupidity.
>

> >Too often, at far too many DZ's.....for the
> >purpose of not wanting to scare away revenue......the leadership mandates
> >that
> >the lethal side of the sport gets glossed over.
>

> When was the last time you saw anyone kicked off a DZ for doing something
> stupid (skydive related) ?

This summer. Some of us at the small dz's are still willing to give a
take-up-golf speech when appropriate, or "I think you're gonna kill yourself
skydiving, and you ain't gonna do it here."

Blues,
Dave

skydivertu

unread,

Jan 27, 2004, 10:20:36 AM1/27/04

Fuck Moderators, Useless people, with no lives, figured out how to put their
views on everyone else.
"gypcees" <nospam...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:Jk%mb.15993$lF1....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

0 new messages