A few Macross Q's
John Greene
I'm sort of new to Macross (hey, I started watching Robotech
first and then became a Macross fan :-) I can't wait for the
AnimEigo release next year!!!
I've searched the web and gotten a bunch of stuff from AFM, but
I'm still pretty ignorant about Macross :-) But here's what I sort of
know:
Super Dimension Fortress: Macross is the 36 episode TV series
(1999-2012) that part 1 of Robotech was based on.
Do You Remember Love? is the movie and also covers the 1999-2012
period but is contradictory to the TV series.
Flashback:2012 is the 30-minute music video with animation from
SDF:Macross and DYRL that has new footage of the Megaroad-01 leaving
the Earth at the end. Was it ever subbed/dubbed in english?
My questions:
1) About the Megaroad-01 (SDF-2).... Out in net-land, there's a web
site (or 2) saying the Megaroad-01 is a different design from the
SDF-2 in SDF:Macross. But the Macross Compenduim says there
wasn't an SDF-2 in SDF:Macross. I'd think Egan Loo is right, but
am I right thinking he's right?
2) Is Flashback:2012 the only footage of the launching of the
Megaroad-01?
The rest are about stuff that happened in 2012 and after
(....after episode 36 of Space War I). Where did most of this stuff
come from? Macross Perfect Memory? Somewhere else?
3) How's it known that the bridge crew made it through Kamujin's
attack in episode 36?
4) Is there any footage of Misa and Hikaru getting married (like the
marriage in that awful Sentinels video) or was it only covered in
one of the Macross "books"? Was it October 2012 or June 2013?
5) Did I read on this NG that the Megaroad-01 had a fold malfunction
and is never seen again? Which book mentions this and what are the
details of the "incident"? Is there dialog in Mac II, Mac+ or Mac7
about it?
Thanks for filling in the gaps! Macross is great!!
John Greene
"There are four seasons: Baseball, Football, Basketball, and Hockey"
Wildcat John
> Hi AFM'ers!
>
> I'm sort of new to Macross (hey, I started watching Robotech
> first and then became a Macross fan :-) I can't wait for the
> AnimEigo release next year!!!
Welcome to the club. :)
<snip>
> Do You Remember Love? is the movie and also covers the 1999-2012
> period but is contradictory to the TV series.
I wouldn't say it's "totally" contradictory, but it's basically a summary
of the TV series with certain details altered. In a fashion similar to
our based-on-a-true-story movies, it's like a film released within the
Macross universe in 2031.
> Flashback:2012 is the 30-minute music video with animation from
> SDF:Macross and DYRL that has new footage of the Megaroad-01 leaving
> the Earth at the end. Was it ever subbed/dubbed in english?
Yellow's Fansub Center has "fansubbed" Flashback. I don't remember its
URL right now, but maybe someone can point it out.
> 1) About the Megaroad-01 (SDF-2).... Out in net-land, there's a web
> site (or 2) saying the Megaroad-01 is a different design from the SDF-2
> in SDF:Macross. But the Macross Compenduim says there wasn't an SDF-2
> in SDF:Macross. I'd think Egan Loo is right, but am I right thinking
> he's right?
I checked the site just to be sure, and Megaroad-01 IS SDF-02.
> 2) Is Flashback:2012 the only footage of the launching of the
> Megaroad-01?
True.
> The rest are about stuff that happened in 2012 and after (....after
> episode 36 of Space War I). Where did most of this stuff come from?
> Macross Perfect Memory? Somewhere else?
Some info comes directly from the sequels (Mac Plus and Mac 7), and the
creators of Macross have released stories to cover the gaps in between,
most of which can be seen in the Compendium.
> 3) How's it known that the bridge crew made it through Kamujin's
> attack in episode 36?
Global's life after 2012 has been recently discussed, so you can look up
the archived posts. As for the Bridge Bunnies, you can look up their bios
at the Compendium and find that two are married (with the exception of
Kim, who is known to stay single through at least 2046... which is kinda
odd, since she's the best-looking of the three... Hehehe...)
> 4) Is there any footage of Misa and Hikaru getting married (like the
> marriage in that awful Sentinels video) or was it only covered in
> one of the Macross "books"? Was it October 2012 or June 2013?
No official animated footage of the wedding exists, at least to my
knowledge. According to the Compendium, Hikaru and Misa married in
June 2012. There are several other books that suggest different dates
similar to the ones you mentioned, but the June 2012 date is widely
accepted. Miku, their daughter, was born early in 2013, so the other
dates are sort of unlikely. :)
> 5) Did I read on this NG that the Megaroad-01 had a fold malfunction
> and is never seen again? Which book mentions this and what are the
> details of the "incident"? Is there dialog in Mac II, Mac+ or Mac7
> about it?
No official reason is given for the ship's disappearance. All that is
known is that communications were lost near the center of Milky Way in
2016. But you are right in that the ship is never heard from again.
Windjammer
John Greene <jgr...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rv71ng...@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi AFM'ers!
>
> I'm sort of new to Macross (hey, I started watching Robotech
> first and then became a Macross fan :-) I can't wait for the
> AnimEigo release next year!!!
>
> I'm still pretty ignorant about Macross :-) But here's what I sort of
> know:
>
> Super Dimension Fortress: Macross is the 36 episode TV series
> (1999-2012) that part 1 of Robotech was based on.
>
> period but is contradictory to the TV series.
>
> SDF:Macross and DYRL that has new footage of the Megaroad-01 leaving
> the Earth at the end. Was it ever subbed/dubbed in english?
>
Fansubs are available, but it was never commerically released in North
America.
> My questions:
>
> 1) About the Megaroad-01 (SDF-2).... Out in net-land, there's a web
> site (or 2) saying the Megaroad-01 is a different design from the
> SDF-2 in SDF:Macross. But the Macross Compenduim says there
> wasn't an SDF-2 in SDF:Macross. I'd think Egan Loo is right, but
> am I right thinking he's right?
>
Yes you're thinking right. There were designs for the SDF-2 for the TV
series but they were never used. The design art has appeared in a few books
but has was never used in animation. The design was later changed for
Flashback. In the storythe SDF-2 was originally going to be another SDF
battle ship but then construction shifted to making the Megaroad a colony
ship when the Long range emigration plan came about.
> 2) Is Flashback:2012 the only footage of the launching of the
> Megaroad-01?
>
> The rest are about stuff that happened in 2012 and after
> (....after episode 36 of Space War I). Where did most of this stuff
> come from? Macross Perfect Memory? Somewhere else?
>
Flashback is a collection of music videos that use footage from Macross TV
and DYRL. There are scene showing events in 2012 including Minmay's Farewell
concert and the launching of the Megaroad.
> 3) How's it known that the bridge crew made it through Kamujin's
> attack in episode 36?
>
There is written material describing how members of the crew survived.
> 4) Is there any footage of Misa and Hikaru getting married (like the
> marriage in that awful Sentinels video) or was it only covered in
> one of the Macross "books"? Was it October 2012 or June 2013?
>
books only... there were illustrations... but no animation.
> 5) Did I read on this NG that the Megaroad-01 had a fold malfunction
> and is never seen again? Which book mentions this and what are the
> details of the "incident"? Is there dialog in Mac II, Mac+ or Mac7
> about it?
>
No communcacations between Earth and the Megaroad were cut off...
> Thanks for filling in the gaps! Macross is great!!
>
> John Greene
>
> "There are four seasons: Baseball, Football, Basketball, and Hockey"
>
>
Windjammer, NMMA
web: www.nmma.fini.net
email: nm...@fini.net
KeithL78
>(1999-2012) that part 1 of Robotech was based on.
>
>Do You Remember Love? is the movie and also covers the 1999-2012
>period but is contradictory to the TV series.
Though some may disagree, I'm of the belief that DYRL served as a testing
ground for story revisions and improvements, some accepted, and some not.
Macross 7 most definately integrates pieces of both the original TV series
continuity, and the movie. Neither tv series nor movie stand as cannon, but
when you hammer out the clues given in Macross 7, you can forge out a nice
combination continuity between them.
>My questions:
>2) Is Flashback:2012 the only footage of the launching of the
>Megaroad-01?
There's a shot in some of the early prologues of Macross 7, but that may just
be re-used footage from 2012.
>3) How's it known that the bridge crew made it through Kamujin's
>attack in episode 36?
For one thing, only the Daedelus was hit (and I don't recall when the cannon
went up, but I think when they tried to fire it, it's been a while since i've
seen the chopped up Robotech episode), but it's well established that they all
lived.
>4) Is there any footage of Misa and Hikaru getting married (like the
>marriage in that awful Sentinels video) or was it only covered in
>one of the Macross "books"? Was it October 2012 or June 2013?
I've seen pictures, but those are most likely from artbooks.
>5) Did I read on this NG that the Megaroad-01 had a fold malfunction
>and is never seen again? Which book mentions this and what are the
>details of the "incident"? Is there dialog in Mac II, Mac+ or Mac7
>about it?
Don't look for any relivent dialogue in Macross II about anything, you're
better off watching DYRL twice in a row, and or picking up the OST's. I don't
recall where the disapearance is mentioned, but someone else answered this
question well enough. The only addition I have is that I heard the voice actor
who played Hikaru died in a motorcycle accident, which is Shoji Kawamori's
reason for not following up on Hikaru, Misa, & the Megaroad. It's enough to
believe they settled on some nice planet somewhere.
Jeffrey T. Jhee
KeithL78 wrote:
>
> Neither tv series nor movie stand as cannon, but
> when you hammer out the clues given in Macross 7, you can forge out a nice
> combination continuity between them.
>
The TV series is clearly official.
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee
j-j...@nwu.edu
http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~jtj390
AIM: MahKuRoss ICQ: 4289637
KeithL78
Not anymore. The revised Zentradi character designs and the implementation of
the full Zenran/Meltran split into the continuity alone knock the tv series out
as fully official cannon. While many aspects do stand, it can't be considered
complete cannon anymore.
Take a look at Exedor, Max's youthful appearance (implying that he was
macronized at some point much like he was in DYRL), the actor playing Britai
(in the Lin Mnmei story) appeared as Britai did in DYRL, while the actor
playing Kamujin appeared as he did in the TV series (right there is a
combination of both continuities).
Then you take a look at "Fleet of the Strongest Women," & "Which one do you
Love." Both episodes giving key info. FotSW presenting new footage of the peace
treaty between the Macross & Britai's fleet (Britai & Exedor giant, Max &
Hikaru in their Valkyries painted in the DYRL style, and Captain Global
standing in front of Britai), Mobile Fortress Bodolza, Hikaru & Misa kissing on
a table in front of DYRL style Britai & Exedor (as well as the other 3 Zentradi
spies in soldier uniform) with no one else around (no Hayao, Roy, Kaifun, or
Minmay, making it yet a third version of that particular event), and a shot of
the Macross speeding away from the earth with it's cannon damaged & the ARMD
carriers attached instead of the Daedelus & Prometheus. And of course there's
the Meltrandi fleet itself, using the DYRL designed ships, uniforms, & mecha,
instead of the tv series ships (which were just purple versions of the male
ships, and green somewhat different power armor). While WODYL it's very clearly
stated (and I'm pretty sure in one of the other episodes as well) that Exedor
was never micronized (also contradicting the original continuity).
The major clue that 7 (and in turn plus) run on a revised continuity, the whole
"Mystery of the Ruins?" episode, which explains the full seperation between the
Zentran & Meltran/Protoculture civil war conflict of DYRL, as opposed to the
males & females just being seperate divisions of the same military of the
original series.
Also take a look at Milia's flight suit, while it's in the style of the TV
series ones, the coloring is in the style of Hikaru's flight suit, not hers
(hers was almost completely red). The pictures of the old soldiers from the
Silver Paradise are also in uniforms from the TV series, but those can easily
be considered as dress uniforms, and or only elite squadrens got to wear the
jumpsuit-ish DYRL style uniforms (just like how only Diamond Force & Emerald
force get the cooler unfiorms & flight suits).
A basic combo continuity can be hammered out by the evidence strewn through out
7, alone with circumstances of the corresponding events in both the TV series &
movie, though there are definately still a good number of gray area's. What's
certain though is that the TV series most definately does not stand as the
definitive continuity anymore, many aspects of it do, but others just plain
don't. The overall result is that DYRL isn't "as" fictional a movie as many
say, a lot of it's revised events (or events in the style of the movie) have
been integrated. To ignore that would be to ignore Plus, 7, and Shoji Kawamori.
I actually hope that they decide to remake the original series as a 20th or
25th anniversary project, but I kinda doubt it for the same reason that there
won't be a follow up on those characters, the death of Hikaru's voice actor.
-Keith
Egan Loo
> >Super Dimension Fortress: Macross is the 36 episode TV series
> >(1999-2012) that part 1 of Robotech was based on.
> >
> >Do You Remember Love? is the movie and also covers the 1999-2012
> >period but is contradictory to the TV series.
>
> Though some may disagree, I'm of the belief that DYRL served as a testing
> ground for story revisions and improvements, some accepted, and some not.
> Macross 7 most definately integrates pieces of both the original TV series
> continuity, and the movie. Neither tv series nor movie stand as cannon, but
> when you hammer out the clues given in Macross 7, you can forge out a nice
> combination continuity between them.
Although elements from the first movie are inserted *after* Space War I in
Studio Nue's Macross Chronology, it's the first series by itself that's
used as the framework of the Chronology as well as the basis for the
events of Space War I.
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronology/
[This is bound to raise more questions about the Macross ship design,
Exsedol's head and size, the use of the term "Meltrandi," Macross 7's
#52's prologue, and more. Fortunately, the creators explain how these all
fit in the Chronology. ^^ If you have these questions, you can ask them
here.]
> >My questions:
>
> >2) Is Flashback:2012 the only footage of the launching of the
> >Megaroad-01?
>
> There's a shot in some of the early prologues of Macross 7, but that may just
> be re-used footage from 2012.
Actually, the Macross 7 animators at Ashi Production went ahead
and re-animated the Megaroad-01 launch for those episode prologues. You
can see them at work in the special preview before Macross 7 aired.
> >3) How's it known that the bridge crew made it through Kamujin's
> >attack in episode 36?
>
> For one thing, only the Daedelus was hit (and I don't recall when the cannon
> went up, but I think when they tried to fire it, it's been a while since i've
> seen the chopped up Robotech episode), but it's well established that they all
> lived.
The midsection of the Macross was also hit in addition to the holing
it received from Quamzin's main cannon; it was not close to the
bridge, but it was enough to require reconstruction of the ship. The main
cannon was destroyed during the only attempt to fire in that battle.
> >4) Is there any footage of Misa and Hikaru getting married (like the
> >marriage in that awful Sentinels video) or was it only covered in
> >one of the Macross "books"? Was it October 2012 or June 2013?
>
> I've seen pictures, but those are most likely from artbooks.
The print materials that have images from the wedding include two
Animage supplements and Haruhiko Mikimoto's artbooks. (Mikimoto also drew
two spoof pictures demonstrating that not everyone took the wedding very
gracefully. ^^;)
> >5) Did I read on this NG that the Megaroad-01 had a fold malfunction
> >and is never seen again? Which book mentions this and what are the
> >details of the "incident"? Is there dialog in Mac II, Mac+ or Mac7
> >about it?
>
> The only addition I have is that I heard the voice actor
> who played Hikaru died in a motorcycle accident, which is Shoji Kawamori's
> reason for not following up on Hikaru, Misa, & the Megaroad. It's enough to
> believe they settled on some nice planet somewhere.
Shouji Kawamori and the rest of Studio Nue had already decided that
original trio's story had closure with Flash Back 2012 in 1987 and
stated this in interviews, long before Arihiro Hase's tragic passing in
1996. (Contrary to what is heard, no officially published report in Japan
stated that Hase's death was due to a motorcycle accident.)
Egan Loo
ega...@anime.net
John Greene
>do you Love."
I hate to ask, but...... What series are those episodes from?
Oh, and someone said something about picking up the OST's. What's an
OST and where do you get one?
>The major clue that 7 (and in turn plus) run on a revised continuity,
>the whole "Mystery of the Ruins?" episode, which explains the
>full seperation between the Zentran & Meltran/Protoculture civil
>war conflict of DYRL, as opposed to the males & females just
>being seperate divisions of the same military of the
>original series.
>To ignore that would be to ignore Plus, 7, and Shoji Kawamori.
Are there any english novels (kind of like the McKinney Robotech
novels *cough, cough*) or indepth web sites out there that tell these
stories, particularly the period from SDF:Macross episode 36 up to
when the Megaroad-01 dissappears? Where can a Macross fan find any of
these books? I figure most of the posters to this thread know where
to find all this stuff :-)
I do like the Macross Chronology because it's very well developed, but
it's mostly dates.
On the flip side, are there any web pages that have pictures of the
Hikaru and Misa wedding? That Sentinels video didn't do it any
justice, and I'd like to see how it was supposed to be ;-)
JG
Jeffrey T. Jhee
KeithL78 wrote:
>
> >The TV series is clearly official.
>
> Not anymore.
Says who?
The revised Zentradi character designs and the implementation of
> the full Zenran/Meltran split into the continuity alone knock the tv series out
> as fully official cannon. While many aspects do stand, it can't be considered
> complete cannon anymore.
>
> Take a look at Exedor,
Someone explained on this NG last year that the character designers
preferred the DYRL design, so they made an excuse afterwards that he
"altered" his body to retain his memory.
Max's youthful appearance (implying that he was
> macronized at some point much like he was in DYRL),
That's a bit jumping to conclusions, isn't it?
the actor playing Britai
> (in the Lin Mnmei story) appeared as Britai did in DYRL, while the actor
> playing Kamujin appeared as he did in the TV series (right there is a
> combination of both continuities).
>
It was also mentioned in Macross 7 that DYRL was a movie, and the
popularity of the movie overshadowed the true history. Many people
didn't think Minmay truly existed. So, it would make sense why the
creators of the "Lynn Minmay Story" would choose either design.
> Then you take a look at "Fleet of the Strongest Women," & "Which one do you
> Love." Both episodes giving key info. FotSW presenting new footage of the peace
> treaty between the Macross & Britai's fleet (Britai & Exedor giant, Max &
> Hikaru in their Valkyries painted in the DYRL style, and Captain Global
> standing in front of Britai), Mobile Fortress Bodolza, Hikaru & Misa kissing on
> a table in front of DYRL style Britai & Exedor (as well as the other 3 Zentradi
> spies in soldier uniform) with no one else around (no Hayao, Roy, Kaifun, or
> Minmay, making it yet a third version of that particular event), and a shot of
> the Macross speeding away from the earth with it's cannon damaged & the ARMD
> carriers attached instead of the Daedelus & Prometheus. And of course there's
> the Meltrandi fleet itself, using the DYRL designed ships, uniforms, & mecha,
> instead of the tv series ships (which were just purple versions of the male
> ships, and green somewhat different power armor).
As with Exsedol's designs, the designers took the liberty of choosing
which set of graphics were better, and it clearly is DYRL's.
While WODYL it's very clearly
> stated (and I'm pretty sure in one of the other episodes as well) that Exedor
> was never micronized (also contradicting the original continuity).
>
Hmmm, interesting...
> The major clue that 7 (and in turn plus) run on a revised continuity, the whole
> "Mystery of the Ruins?" episode, which explains the full seperation between the
> Zentran & Meltran/Protoculture civil war conflict of DYRL, as opposed to the
> males & females just being seperate divisions of the same military of the
> original series.
>
Interesting, again. I'll have to look that one up when I get a VCR.
> Also take a look at Milia's flight suit, while it's in the style of the TV
> series ones, the coloring is in the style of Hikaru's flight suit, not hers
> (hers was almost completely red). The pictures of the old soldiers from the
> Silver Paradise are also in uniforms from the TV series, but those can easily
> be considered as dress uniforms, and or only elite squadrens got to wear the
> jumpsuit-ish DYRL style uniforms (just like how only Diamond Force & Emerald
> force get the cooler unfiorms & flight suits).
>
> A basic combo continuity can be hammered out by the evidence strewn through out
> 7, alone with circumstances of the corresponding events in both the TV series &
> movie, though there are definately still a good number of gray area's. What's
> certain though is that the TV series most definately does not stand as the
> definitive continuity anymore, many aspects of it do, but others just plain
> don't. The overall result is that DYRL isn't "as" fictional a movie as many
> say, a lot of it's revised events (or events in the style of the movie) have
> been integrated. To ignore that would be to ignore Plus, 7, and Shoji Kawamori.
>
You bring up good points, and your argument is much stronger than what I
expected it to be. But it's rather well documented that Kawamori
himself said that what "really" happened in Space War I is depicted
through the TV series, not a compromise between DYRL and the TV series.
I do agree that much of Macross 7's plot was revised from the TV series
courtesy of DYRL. I don't think that character designs should be used
as evidence, though, as the character designers are allowed to take
liberties here and there.
> I actually hope that they decide to remake the original series as a 20th or
> 25th anniversary project, but I kinda doubt it for the same reason that there
> won't be a follow up on those characters, the death of Hikaru's voice actor.
>
> -Keith
--
KeithL78
>preferred the DYRL design, so they made an excuse afterwards that he
>"altered" his body to retain his memory.
I've heard that before, but I've yet to find any hard evidence of it. Perhaps
someone got confused with info stating that his body is specially altered for
his position, or something to that effect. That he's never been micronized
(like he was in the tv series) is well established, which is a semi-major story
change in itself (though he still very well could have come aboard the Macross
to form a treaty, being a giant with a huge head and tentacle like arms most
definately would have altered reactions to him at the very least, and note that
both shots of him (such as the scene with Hikaru & Misa kissing, and during the
treaty signing) during the background history prologues show the very same
design. The reason "why" using the designs is such a big deal is because
especially in cases of the Zentradi, they carry story changes along with them.
Another such case would be that all reference shots of Minmay show her singing
DYRL in the DYRL style dress, which may imply that the city was found, and Misa
stumbled upon the song. Though that would also carry with it that the earth was
trashed in the beginning. So again, another possable major story change.
>That's a bit jumping to conclusions, isn't it?
Not really, take a look at the soldiers at the Silver Parasdise, in their
pictures, they couldn't be much more than 10 years older than Max if that much,
while the overall difference between Max and them is huge, he looks about as
young as Milia. We know that Max was macronized in the movie (even got blue
power armor), so it's possable they may have incorperated that in some way
shape or form (though not necessarily with the power armor), hence his youthful
appearance (Zentradi in general have a slowed down aging rate, so it stands to
reason that a human Macronized would also have their aging slowed, even when
re-micronized. Though it brings up the question as to why everyone else
wouldn't try and do it). Also take a look at the wedding stills used for the
Lin Minmay story (note they're stills, and not necessarily new to the movie,
could be old photo's). Both Max & Milia appear to be weary the Meltrandi
uniforms, and Max is without his glasses. Implication being that they were
possably Giant at the time of the wedding.
>It was also mentioned in Macross 7 that DYRL was a movie, and the
>popularity of the movie overshadowed the true history. Many people
>didn't think Minmay truly existed. So, it would make sense why the
>creators of the "Lynn Minmay Story" would choose either design.
It was never said that the popularity of the movie overshadowed the true
history, just that history (in specific regards to Minmay) got a bit
romantisized. Plus take into account that Bodolza is shown (during the FotSW
background story prologue) in mobile fortress form, Exedor's design, and the
state of the Meltrandi, and it stands to reason that Britai would appear as he
did in the movie, while Kamujin not being as high ranking would maintain the
apparance of a standard Zentradi (no eyebrows, but with hair, and a "normal"
body, aside from the newer design ears).
>As with Exsedol's designs, the designers took the liberty of choosing
>which set of graphics were better, and it clearly is DYRL's.
And again, the very nature of those designs carry story changes along with
them, there's no way to use them without alteration to the tv series
continuity.
>You bring up good points, and your argument is much stronger than what I
>expected it to be. But it's rather well documented that Kawamori
>himself said that what "really" happened in Space War I is depicted
>through the TV series, not a compromise between DYRL and the TV series.
>I do agree that much of Macross 7's plot was revised from the TV series
>courtesy of DYRL. I don't think that character designs should be used
>as evidence, though, as the character designers are allowed to take
>liberties here and there.
When was Kawamori documented saying it, and was it after 94-95? And while human
uniform designs could be arbitrary, there's no way to explain the
Zetnradi/Meltrandi designs, or the history explained on the Protoculture mural,
without an integration of DYRL.
Plus it nicely explains why Max doesn't look very old for 50.
-Keith
KeithL78
at this by now...
>Although elements from the first movie are inserted *after* Space War I in
>Studio Nue's Macross Chronology, it's the first series by itself that's
>used as the framework of the Chronology as well as the basis for the
>events of Space War I.
When was the chronology released, before or after 7 was released? And while the
tv series may stand true in many cases, it doesn't stand so clear in all. Also,
a question I've been meaning to mail you about, is your chronology a
translation of a (at least post 94) officially released chronolgy? I was under
the impression that it's comprised of elements you gathered together from
various Studio Nue resources (series, art books, books, etc), and then
compiled.
>http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronology/
>
>[This is bound to raise more questions about the Macross ship design,
>Exsedol's head and size, the use of the term "Meltrandi," Macross 7's
>#52's prologue, and more. Fortunately, the creators explain how these all
>fit in the Chronology. ^^ If you have these questions, you can ask them
>here.]
It's not just the use of the word Meltrandi, it's the switch from the Meltrandi
being a side division of the Zentradi fleet (still under Bodolza's command, at
least somewhat in the TV series, and while still seperate from the males, most
definately not at war with them, and to some degree at least, working with
them), to a completely seperate faction at war with the Zentradi. I am however
very interested in the answers (and whether they were given before or after 7
was released), so any input you've got would be very appreciated.
>Actually, the Macross 7 animators at Ashi Production went ahead
>and re-animated the Megaroad-01 launch for those episode prologues. You
>can see them at work in the special preview before Macross 7 aired.
Did the special preview have any more footage, and was it ever released on
tape?
>The midsection of the Macross was also hit in addition to the holing
>it received from Quamzin's main cannon; it was not close to the
>bridge, but it was enough to require reconstruction of the ship. The main
>cannon was destroyed during the only attempt to fire in that battle.
Well, the ship was in need of reconstruction regardless, it was beat up period
after the battle with Bodolza's fleet, and the barrier explosion.
>The print materials that have images from the wedding include two
>Animage supplements and Haruhiko Mikimoto's artbooks. (Mikimoto also drew
>two spoof pictures demonstrating that not everyone took the wedding very
>gracefully. ^^;)
I've probably seen at least a couple scans from that then.
>Shouji Kawamori and the rest of Studio Nue had already decided that
>original trio's story had closure with Flash Back 2012 in 1987 and
>stated this in interviews, long before Arihiro Hase's tragic passing in
>1996. (Contrary to what is heard, no officially published report in Japan
>stated that Hase's death was due to a motorcycle accident.)
>
>Egan Loo
It would still be nice to have a remake of the tv series though, doubt it would
happen, but it would be nice. Any word on what they may be planning to release
(if anything) for the 20th or 25th anniversary?
-Keith
Jeffrey T. Jhee
KeithL78 wrote:
>
> >Someone explained on this NG last year that the character designers
> >preferred the DYRL design, so they made an excuse afterwards that he
> >"altered" his body to retain his memory.
>
> I've heard that before, but I've yet to find any hard evidence of it.
Quote from Animerica Vol 6. no. 6
"Exsedor Folmo (Exedore)
This former Zentraedi records officer decides to join Max and Milia
aboard the macross 7 super-long-distance colonization fleet as an
observer and advisor. You wouldn't recognize him from the TV series,
though -- his enlarged cranium and green complesion adhere to his Do You
Remember Love? movie appearance. According to the Macross 7 liner
notes, the story is that he returned to Zentraedi size and realtrered
his body's makeup out of fear of 'losing his cerebral capacity and
memories.' [From Macross 7]"
Perhaps
> someone got confused with info stating that his body is specially altered for
> his position, or something to that effect. That he's never been micronized
> (like he was in the tv series) is well established, which is a semi-major story
> change in itself (though he still very well could have come aboard the Macross
> to form a treaty, being a giant with a huge head and tentacle like arms most
> definately would have altered reactions to him at the very least, and note that
> both shots of him (such as the scene with Hikaru & Misa kissing, and during the
> treaty signing) during the background history prologues show the very same
> design. The reason "why" using the designs is such a big deal is because
> especially in cases of the Zentradi, they carry story changes along with them.
>
> Another such case would be that all reference shots of Minmay show her singing
> DYRL in the DYRL style dress, which may imply that the city was found, and Misa
> stumbled upon the song. Though that would also carry with it that the earth was
> trashed in the beginning. So again, another possable major story change.
I still uphold my belief that those scenes in Macross 7 are simply
"flashing back to the movie," not history.
>
> >That's a bit jumping to conclusions, isn't it?
>
> Not really, take a look at the soldiers at the Silver Parasdise, in their
> pictures, they couldn't be much more than 10 years older than Max if that much,
Roy Focker was 14 years older than Max, and they could quite possibly be
much older. My dad is 55, and there are a lot of 70 year olds out there
who look 20+ years older than he does.
> while the overall difference between Max and them is huge, he looks about as
> young as Milia.
They're the same age.
We know that Max was macronized in the movie (even got blue
> power armor), so it's possable they may have incorperated that in some way
> shape or form (though not necessarily with the power armor), hence his youthful
> appearance (Zentradi in general have a slowed down aging rate, so it stands to
> reason that a human Macronized would also have their aging slowed, even when
> re-micronized. Though it brings up the question as to why everyone else
> wouldn't try and do it).
I don't know if we can assume that full-sized Zentradi live longer, can
we? They're just clones, anyway, so if they started to whither away,
they could easily be replaced. Maybe that's how their longevity is
accounted for, I don't know.
Also take a look at the wedding stills used for the
> Lin Minmay story (note they're stills, and not necessarily new to the movie,
> could be old photo's). Both Max & Milia appear to be weary the Meltrandi
> uniforms, and Max is without his glasses. Implication being that they were
> possably Giant at the time of the wedding.
I got the impression that the Lynn Minmay story was even more
romanticised than DYRL. It seemed as though the producers used the
movie for background information more than consulting a historian who
might have been there. I mean, when ever has Minmay sat on Hikaru's lap
during a mission and sang "My Boyfriend is a Pilot?" ;-)
>
> >It was also mentioned in Macross 7 that DYRL was a movie, and the
> >popularity of the movie overshadowed the true history. Many people
> >didn't think Minmay truly existed. So, it would make sense why the
> >creators of the "Lynn Minmay Story" would choose either design.
>
> It was never said that the popularity of the movie overshadowed the true
> history, just that history (in specific regards to Minmay) got a bit
> romantisized.
Again, I didn't get this impression. In the first episode, Exsedol says
that he figured that Basara was a "would-be Lynn Minmay." A couple of
the bridge operators heard him say that, and then responded something
along the lines of "You mean the girl in the movie?" Also, Dr. Chiba
and Emilia Jenius both mentioned, I think (I could be mistaken, LMK),
that they had a hard time believing that Minmay truly existed, and that
she was merely a character in a popular movie. So in these instances,
it would seem that history took a backseat to entertainment, because
people are more familiar with the theatrical interpretation as to what
really happened.
Plus take into account that Bodolza is shown (during the FotSW
> background story prologue) in mobile fortress form, Exedor's design, and the
> state of the Meltrandi, and it stands to reason that Britai would appear as he
> did in the movie, while Kamujin not being as high ranking would maintain the
> apparance of a standard Zentradi (no eyebrows, but with hair, and a "normal"
> body, aside from the newer design ears).
>
> >As with Exsedol's designs, the designers took the liberty of choosing
> >which set of graphics were better, and it clearly is DYRL's.
>
> And again, the very nature of those designs carry story changes along with
> them, there's no way to use them without alteration to the tv series
> continuity.
See above.
>
> >You bring up good points, and your argument is much stronger than what I
> >expected it to be. But it's rather well documented that Kawamori
> >himself said that what "really" happened in Space War I is depicted
> >through the TV series, not a compromise between DYRL and the TV series.
> >I do agree that much of Macross 7's plot was revised from the TV series
> >courtesy of DYRL. I don't think that character designs should be used
> >as evidence, though, as the character designers are allowed to take
> >liberties here and there.
>
> When was Kawamori documented saying it, and was it after 94-95?
Well, he's been interviewed quite a few times, and information he's
given has been documented in such sources as www.ex.org, Animerica
magazine, and Macross Compendium. These sources recently printed
material (as in the last 2 years), and it would seem as though if
Kawamori changed his mind about an official timeline, then he would have
let interviewers know. Otherwise, it would seem safe to assume the
status quo, which is that the TV is canon and DYRL isn't really.
And while human
> uniform designs could be arbitrary, there's no way to explain the
> Zetnradi/Meltrandi designs, or the history explained on the Protoculture mural,
> without an integration of DYRL.
>
You're darned right about that. I wonder if anyone knows the answer.
> Plus it nicely explains why Max doesn't look very old for 50.
>
> -Keith
--
KeithL78
>
>"Exsedor Folmo (Exedore)
>This former Zentraedi records officer decides to join Max and Milia
>aboard the macross 7 super-long-distance colonization fleet as an
>observer and advisor. You wouldn't recognize him from the TV series,
>though -- his enlarged cranium and green complesion adhere to his Do You
>Remember Love? movie appearance. According to the Macross 7 liner
>notes, the story is that he returned to Zentraedi size and realtrered
>his body's makeup out of fear of 'losing his cerebral capacity and
>memories.' [From Macross 7]"
Still going against the prologue quotes (I believe twice during the course, but
possably once) that he had never been micronized. I'm not inclined to take
animerica as the best of sources, though it would be nice if someone translated
the Macross 7 liner notes and put them up on a page somewhere.
>Roy Focker was 14 years older than Max, and they could quite possibly be
>much older. My dad is 55, and there are a lot of 70 year olds out there
>who look 20+ years older than he does.
Still doesn't quote add up, even looking at Colonel Barton, and most of the
other higher ranking officers that we see aboard battle 7 (who can't be much
older) the difference is considerable.
>> while the overall difference between Max and them is huge, he looks about
>as
>> young as Milia.
>
>They're the same age.
The same age, but in equivalence, or actually chronological age. Zentradi are
cloned (assumption being to at the very earliest a mid teen equivalent, since
they're unfamiliar with babies, and we never see any younger than that running
around), so the question is was Milia cloned 15 years before the start of the
series (which would support that Zentradi do age slower), or did they just
equate her age to 15 by her appearance (which if newly cloned, wouldn't give
her much time to establish herself as an ace known through both male and female
fleets)?
>We know that Max was macronized in the movie (even got blue
>> power armor), so it's possable they may have incorperated that in some way
>> shape or form (though not necessarily with the power armor), hence his
>youthful
>> appearance (Zentradi in general have a slowed down aging rate, so it stands
>to
>> reason that a human Macronized would also have their aging slowed, even
>when
>> re-micronized. Though it brings up the question as to why everyone else
>> wouldn't try and do it).
>
>I don't know if we can assume that full-sized Zentradi live longer, can
>we? They're just clones, anyway, so if they started to whither away,
>they could easily be replaced. Maybe that's how their longevity is
>accounted for, I don't know.
There's no real indication that clones carry on the personality and memory of
their predasessors (though we don't actually have a comparison example), we
just know that they're created through cloning, which could just be defined as
made in a test tube, not necessarily a genetic duplicate. The Zentraid had been
around for hundreds of thousands of years (at least), and the Protoculture were
suppesedly very skilled in cloning technology, apparently to the point that
they could physically alter bodies. It wouldn't be so far fetched to say that
they may have been able to randomize genes to create new variations in order to
keep the Zentradi from degrading over time.
Being able to alter the evolution of humans in itself is a large feat, so it is
probable that they had the technology. Besides, wasn't there also some quote
(somewhere in one of the series) about Exedor (and or Britai) being around for
hundreds of years? Bodolza (at least in DYRL) had claimed to be around for 150
thousand, though he was specially designed as a component of his mobile
fortress, it stands to reason that the same may apply for other Zentradi
(longevity). Skill alone would be enough to weed soldiers out, naturally the
more skilled would live longer, and go up in rank, while the not so skilled
would die in battle and be replaced in some form or another. It wouldn't make
as much sense to have soldiers who grew old quickly (and in the amount of time
that the Zentradi had been around, a normal human lifespan would be pretty
quick), then constantly replace them with clones (and if clones were exact, the
line would degrade with each generation). Though who knows.
>Also take a look at the wedding stills used for the
>> Lin Minmay story (note they're stills, and not necessarily new to the
>movie,
>> could be old photo's). Both Max & Milia appear to be weary the Meltrandi
>> uniforms, and Max is without his glasses. Implication being that they were
>> possably Giant at the time of the wedding.
>I got the impression that the Lynn Minmay story was even more
>romanticised than DYRL. It seemed as though the producers used the
>movie for background information more than consulting a historian who
>might have been there. I mean, when ever has Minmay sat on Hikaru's lap
>during a mission and sang "My Boyfriend is a Pilot?" ;-)
The Lynn Minmay story was propaganda to keep the citazens busy, that doesn't
mean all of it was made up. Why hire an actress to play Minmay for the famous
battle scenes, while hiring Mylene to play Minmay at the same time? I was
refering more to the older (looking at least) mateiral used (such as the scene
of Minmay singing during the battle with Bodolza's fleet, and the still
pictures of Max & Milia's wedding).
>>
>> >It was also mentioned in Macross 7 that DYRL was a movie, and the
>> >popularity of the movie overshadowed the true history. Many people
>> >didn't think Minmay truly existed. So, it would make sense why the
>> >creators of the "Lynn Minmay Story" would choose either design.
>>
>> It was never said that the popularity of the movie overshadowed the true
>> history, just that history (in specific regards to Minmay) got a bit
>> romantisized.
>
>Again, I didn't get this impression. In the first episode, Exsedol says
>that he figured that Basara was a "would-be Lynn Minmay." A couple of
>the bridge operators heard him say that, and then responded something
>along the lines of "You mean the girl in the movie?" Also, Dr. Chiba
>and Emilia Jenius both mentioned, I think (I could be mistaken, LMK),
>that they had a hard time believing that Minmay truly existed, and that
>she was merely a character in a popular movie. So in these instances,
>it would seem that history took a backseat to entertainment, because
>people are more familiar with the theatrical interpretation as to what
>really happened.
It's understandable that Minmay in general would become mythical, she
disapeared not long after the war, and only the 50,000 (or was it down to
40,000?) survivors, along with the remaining Zentradi that lived through the
battle actually saw her. Everyone else was cloned, many of which were cloned
after the Megaroad disapeared. Chiba never said that (if anything he was
extremely convinced of her existence, and somewhat obsessed with her), but
Emilia did, as did someone else (whom I can't recall right now, possably Miho,
Sally, or one of the other bridge crew). Point being, many aspects of Macross 7
would seem to imply that DYRL wasn't "as" fictional as people make them out to
be. Including animating scenes and stills which never occured in the movie (the
Misa & HIkaru kissing in front of Britai & Exedor still, the new scene of
Minmay singing, the new scene of the Macross speeding away from the earth, the
treaty between the Global & Britai still, the destruction of Mobile Fortres
Bodolza, etc). While part of it may be that they either chose not to, or
weren't allowed to use scenes from the movie, it would stand that they would
still not create entirely new scenes from the movie, and pass them off as
history during episode prologues.
>See above.
Saw above, and yet still, it might pass if it were just characters referencing
history, but it's also being used in the historical prologues before the
episodes begin.
>Well, he's been interviewed quite a few times, and information he's
>given has been documented in such sources as www.ex.org, Animerica
>magazine, and Macross Compendium. These sources recently printed
>material (as in the last 2 years), and it would seem as though if
>Kawamori changed his mind about an official timeline, then he would have
>let interviewers know. Otherwise, it would seem safe to assume the
>status quo, which is that the TV is canon and DYRL isn't really.
I've seen one (though I'm sure there are many more) interview at ex.org that
didn't mention much of the timeline at all, though now would seem to be a good
time to rumage through the site. And again, I'm not really saying that it looks
like one is the definitive canon over the other, just that it seems both have
been blended together.
>And while human
>> uniform designs could be arbitrary, there's no way to explain the
>> Zetnradi/Meltrandi designs, or the history explained on the Protoculture
>mural,
>> without an integration of DYRL.
>>
>
>You're darned right about that. I wonder if anyone knows the answer.
>
>*****
>Jeffrey T. Jhee
And the answer to that is the major key to the puzzle, since that would largely
effect the outcome of the latter half of the tv series continuity (which is
when the females popped up). That so far is the largest clue that the
conitnuities have been blended together as of yet.
-Keith
Jeffrey T. Jhee
KeithL78 wrote:
>
> >Quote from Animerica Vol 6. no. 6
> >
> >"Exsedor Folmo (Exedore)
> >This former Zentraedi records officer decides to join Max and Milia
> >aboard the macross 7 super-long-distance colonization fleet as an
> >observer and advisor. You wouldn't recognize him from the TV series,
> >though -- his enlarged cranium and green complesion adhere to his Do You
> >Remember Love? movie appearance. According to the Macross 7 liner
> >notes, the story is that he returned to Zentraedi size and realtrered
> >his body's makeup out of fear of 'losing his cerebral capacity and
> >memories.' [From Macross 7]"
>
> Still going against the prologue quotes (I believe twice during the course, but
> possably once) that he had never been micronized. I'm not inclined to take
> animerica as the best of sources, though it would be nice if someone translated
> the Macross 7 liner notes and put them up on a page somewhere.
>
> >Roy Focker was 14 years older than Max, and they could quite possibly be
> >much older. My dad is 55, and there are a lot of 70 year olds out there
> >who look 20+ years older than he does.
>
> Still doesn't quote add up, even looking at Colonel Barton, and most of the
> other higher ranking officers that we see aboard battle 7 (who can't be much
> older) the difference is considerable.
>
To be honest, I don't think that there's any "logic" to why Max looks
like a very young 50 year old in Macross 7, other than the fact that the
character designers wanted to make him look that way. Also, it would be
a bit suspicious to make some old guy pilot a VF-22; his youthful
appearance gives the illusion that he's a young pilot again.
> >> while the overall difference between Max and them is huge, he looks about
> >as
> >> young as Milia.
> >
> >They're the same age.
>
> The same age, but in equivalence, or actually chronological age. Zentradi are
> cloned (assumption being to at the very earliest a mid teen equivalent, since
> they're unfamiliar with babies, and we never see any younger than that running
> around), so the question is was Milia cloned 15 years before the start of the
> series (which would support that Zentradi do age slower), or did they just
> equate her age to 15 by her appearance (which if newly cloned, wouldn't give
> her much time to establish herself as an ace known through both male and female
> fleets)?
>
There's not much info given about cloning.
> >We know that Max was macronized in the movie (even got blue
> >> power armor), so it's possable they may have incorperated that in some way
> >> shape or form (though not necessarily with the power armor), hence his
> >youthful
> >> appearance (Zentradi in general have a slowed down aging rate, so it stands
> >to
> >> reason that a human Macronized would also have their aging slowed, even
> >when
> >> re-micronized. Though it brings up the question as to why everyone else
> >> wouldn't try and do it).
> >
> >I don't know if we can assume that full-sized Zentradi live longer, can
> >we? They're just clones, anyway, so if they started to whither away,
> >they could easily be replaced. Maybe that's how their longevity is
> >accounted for, I don't know.
>
> There's no real indication that clones carry on the personality and memory of
> their predasessors (though we don't actually have a comparison example),
I didn't intend to imply that clones carried each characteristic trait
of their predecessors, just that if they weren't fit for the job, they
could be easily replaced.
we
> just know that they're created through cloning, which could just be defined as
> made in a test tube, not necessarily a genetic duplicate. The Zentraid had been
> around for hundreds of thousands of years (at least), and the Protoculture were
> suppesedly very skilled in cloning technology, apparently to the point that
> they could physically alter bodies. It wouldn't be so far fetched to say that
> they may have been able to randomize genes to create new variations in order to
> keep the Zentradi from degrading over time.
>
> Being able to alter the evolution of humans in itself is a large feat, so it is
> probable that they had the technology. Besides, wasn't there also some quote
> (somewhere in one of the series) about Exedor (and or Britai) being around for
> hundreds of years? Bodolza (at least in DYRL) had claimed to be around for 150
> thousand, though he was specially designed as a component of his mobile
> fortress, it stands to reason that the same may apply for other Zentradi
> (longevity). Skill alone would be enough to weed soldiers out, naturally the
> more skilled would live longer, and go up in rank, while the not so skilled
> would die in battle and be replaced in some form or another.
It wouldn't make
> as much sense to have soldiers who grew old quickly (and in the amount of time
> that the Zentradi had been around, a normal human lifespan would be pretty
> quick), then constantly replace them with clones (and if clones were exact, the
> line would degrade with each generation). Though who knows.
>
No, it wouldn't make sense to intentionally make soldiers live
comparatively short, but if that's the limit of their technology (which
is unspecified), then they have no control over that.
> >Also take a look at the wedding stills used for the
> >> Lin Minmay story (note they're stills, and not necessarily new to the
> >movie,
> >> could be old photo's). Both Max & Milia appear to be weary the Meltrandi
> >> uniforms, and Max is without his glasses. Implication being that they were
> >> possably Giant at the time of the wedding.
>
> >I got the impression that the Lynn Minmay story was even more
> >romanticised than DYRL. It seemed as though the producers used the
> >movie for background information more than consulting a historian who
> >might have been there. I mean, when ever has Minmay sat on Hikaru's lap
> >during a mission and sang "My Boyfriend is a Pilot?" ;-)
>
> The Lynn Minmay story was propaganda to keep the citazens busy, that doesn't
> mean all of it was made up. Why hire an actress to play Minmay for the famous
> battle scenes, while hiring Mylene to play Minmay at the same time? I was
> refering more to the older (looking at least) mateiral used (such as the scene
> of Minmay singing during the battle with Bodolza's fleet, and the still
> pictures of Max & Milia's wedding).
>
That material is not stock footage from DYRL. It's meant to look like
it came from DYRL, but if you notice carefully, it's slightly
different. IIRC, the entire Macross 7 animation was original for Mac7.
I've been thinking about it for a while, and since, I suppose, it's kind
of common knowledge among Macross fans what the "official" continuity
is, then they thought they'd be better off recaping prior Macross
stories using the more popular scenes, plotlines, and designs, and if it
meant using DYRL over TV, then so be it. Of course, this is just a
guess.
>
> >Well, he's been interviewed quite a few times, and information he's
> >given has been documented in such sources as www.ex.org, Animerica
> >magazine, and Macross Compendium. These sources recently printed
> >material (as in the last 2 years), and it would seem as though if
> >Kawamori changed his mind about an official timeline, then he would have
> >let interviewers know. Otherwise, it would seem safe to assume the
> >status quo, which is that the TV is canon and DYRL isn't really.
>
> I've seen one (though I'm sure there are many more) interview at ex.org that
> didn't mention much of the timeline at all, though now would seem to be a good
> time to rumage through the site. And again, I'm not really saying that it looks
> like one is the definitive canon over the other, just that it seems both have
> been blended together.
>
> >And while human
> >> uniform designs could be arbitrary, there's no way to explain the
> >> Zetnradi/Meltrandi designs, or the history explained on the Protoculture
> >mural,
> >> without an integration of DYRL.
> >>
> >
> >You're darned right about that. I wonder if anyone knows the answer.
> >
> >*****
> >Jeffrey T. Jhee
>
> And the answer to that is the major key to the puzzle, since that would largely
> effect the outcome of the latter half of the tv series continuity (which is
> when the females popped up). That so far is the largest clue that the
> conitnuities have been blended together as of yet.
>
I see your point about blended continuities. There are indeed
indications from Mac7 that would insist so. However, since the creators
seem to stand by their original explanation, and Mac7 itself, I believe,
admits that DYRL was a movie, it seems the clues are merely
inconsistencies, revisionism, or flubs on the parts of the storywriters.
KeithL78
>like a very young 50 year old in Macross 7, other than the fact that the
>character designers wanted to make him look that way. Also, it would be
>a bit suspicious to make some old guy pilot a VF-22; his youthful
>appearance gives the illusion that he's a young pilot again.
Well, they had 3 old guys piloting that huge destroid (though not entirely
successfully), so it wouldn't be unpheasable for an older looking Max to pilot
a VF-22. Temporary Macronization however seems to be the best explanation.
>There's not much info given about cloning.
No, but there is enough to indicate that it's much more than just making
copies.
>I didn't intend to imply that clones carried each characteristic trait
>of their predecessors, just that if they weren't fit for the job, they
>could be easily replaced.
True, or they'd adapt or die, in either case, built in short life span wouldn't
be the best route to go.
>No, it wouldn't make sense to intentionally make soldiers live
>comparatively short, but if that's the limit of their technology (which
>is unspecified), then they have no control over that.
The indication however would imply that there's no such limit on their
technology.
>That material is not stock footage from DYRL. It's meant to look like
>it came from DYRL, but if you notice carefully, it's slightly
>different. IIRC, the entire Macross 7 animation was original for Mac7.
I'm well aware that it's not stock footage, though the only scene which may
rank under the catagory of intended to look like it was from DYRL is the Minmay
singing scene. Max & Milia's wedding was never featured in the movie. Of course
being slightly different (very different in design) is what brings up the
questions.
>I've been thinking about it for a while, and since, I suppose, it's kind
>of common knowledge among Macross fans what the "official" continuity
>is, then they thought they'd be better off recaping prior Macross
>stories using the more popular scenes, plotlines, and designs, and if it
>meant using DYRL over TV, then so be it. Of course, this is just a
>guess.
Though that doesn't quite make sense. "This is official, but we're going to
ignore that and throw in what's more popular to stand over the official." And
even then, it's revised over both versions into a hybrid. Anyway you cut it, it
looks more and more like a hybrid 3rd continuity taking precedence over both TV
series & movie versions, that's being used in Macross 7.
>I see your point about blended continuities. There are indeed
>indications from Mac7 that would insist so. However, since the creators
>seem to stand by their original explanation, and Mac7 itself, I believe,
>admits that DYRL was a movie, it seems the clues are merely
>inconsistencies, revisionism, or flubs on the parts of the storywriters.
>--
>*****
>Jeffrey T. Jhee
The fact that Macross DYRL is a movie is not in dispute, it's how fictional and
how much the story of the movie drifts off from the events that occured that is
in question. The indication being that it's not quite so "dramatized" and that
some events depicted in the movie (mostly related to the Zentradi & Meltrandi)
did actually occur, or rather events like them.
I've also as of yet to find any post Macross 7 resources/interviews/etc (though
it's hard enough to find such things on the net) that rules out the possability
of a third hybrid continuity.
-Keith
Jeffrey T. Jhee
KeithL78 wrote:
>
> >To be honest, I don't think that there's any "logic" to why Max looks
> >like a very young 50 year old in Macross 7, other than the fact that the
> >character designers wanted to make him look that way. Also, it would be
> >a bit suspicious to make some old guy pilot a VF-22; his youthful
> >appearance gives the illusion that he's a young pilot again.
>
> Well, they had 3 old guys piloting that huge destroid (though not entirely
> successfully), so it wouldn't be unpheasable for an older looking Max to pilot
> a VF-22. Temporary Macronization however seems to be the best explanation.
>
Those 3 guys are most likely much older than Max. In Macross (TV) when
Hikaru received a medal of commendation, he was at the end of the line,
and everyone was head and shoulders taller than he was. Either Hikaru
is a shrimp, or he was significantly younger than everyone. Max is even
younger than Hikaru. How much older, however, is tough to guess. And
as Peter Boulter mentioned, appearance is not always a good way to guess
how old someone is.
In the case of whether Max was macronized or not, after considering what
occurred in prior Macross series, since he's still human size (as is
Milia), it seems most likely to me that he never was macronized. You
could (and have) made a better case insisting Exsedol was never
micronized.
> >There's not much info given about cloning.
>
> No, but there is enough to indicate that it's much more than just making
> copies.
>
> >I didn't intend to imply that clones carried each characteristic trait
> >of their predecessors, just that if they weren't fit for the job, they
> >could be easily replaced.
>
> True, or they'd adapt or die, in either case, built in short life span wouldn't
> be the best route to go.
>
> >No, it wouldn't make sense to intentionally make soldiers live
> >comparatively short, but if that's the limit of their technology (which
> >is unspecified), then they have no control over that.
>
> The indication however would imply that there's no such limit on their
> technology.
From DYRL, they indicate that Gorg Bodolzaa is rather ancient.
Vrlitwhai (or however you want to spell that name) and Exsedol probably
aren't exactly teeny-boppers. But as far as the original TV show is
concerned, there really isn't much indication of their ages or
life-spans, other than the fact that Bodolzaa, Vrlitwhai, and Exsedol
have been around for longer than 10 years.
>
> >That material is not stock footage from DYRL. It's meant to look like
> >it came from DYRL, but if you notice carefully, it's slightly
> >different. IIRC, the entire Macross 7 animation was original for Mac7.
>
> I'm well aware that it's not stock footage, though the only scene which may
> rank under the catagory of intended to look like it was from DYRL is the Minmay
> singing scene. Max & Milia's wedding was never featured in the movie. Of course
> being slightly different (very different in design) is what brings up the
> questions.
>
Weren't those pictures of their "wedding" for the Lynn Minmay story? If
so, that would explain quite a bit.
> >I've been thinking about it for a while, and since, I suppose, it's kind
> >of common knowledge among Macross fans what the "official" continuity
> >is, then they thought they'd be better off recaping prior Macross
> >stories using the more popular scenes, plotlines, and designs, and if it
> >meant using DYRL over TV, then so be it. Of course, this is just a
> >guess.
>
> Though that doesn't quite make sense. "This is official, but we're going to
> ignore that and throw in what's more popular to stand over the official." And
> even then, it's revised over both versions into a hybrid. Anyway you cut it, it
> looks more and more like a hybrid 3rd continuity taking precedence over both TV
> series & movie versions, that's being used in Macross 7.
>
It's a bit hard to explain, but here I go. Fans of Macross already know
what's "official" and what's "fictional." Since all of the info in the
beginning of each episode is for the viewers, and not particularly
pertinent to the story, then it's of little consequence to use DYRL or
the TV series to explain the "past," because people watching already
know what happened. The stuff in the beginning is only necessary to put
Mac7 into some sort of context of when things occur.
Yeah, this isn't the best explanation I've ever given, so if you would
like me to explain it further, feel free to ask. Otherwise, I'll quit
here and avoid rambling off into something irrelevant.
> >I see your point about blended continuities. There are indeed
> >indications from Mac7 that would insist so. However, since the creators
> >seem to stand by their original explanation, and Mac7 itself, I believe,
> >admits that DYRL was a movie, it seems the clues are merely
> >inconsistencies, revisionism, or flubs on the parts of the storywriters.
> >--
> >*****
> >Jeffrey T. Jhee
>
> The fact that Macross DYRL is a movie is not in dispute, it's how fictional and
> how much the story of the movie drifts off from the events that occured that is
> in question. The indication being that it's not quite so "dramatized" and that
> some events depicted in the movie (mostly related to the Zentradi & Meltrandi)
> did actually occur, or rather events like them.
>
> I've also as of yet to find any post Macross 7 resources/interviews/etc (though
> it's hard enough to find such things on the net) that rules out the possability
> of a third hybrid continuity.
>
True, though I'm still most inclined to believe that the writers didn't
do a great job of revising the story in context to the previous works,
hence accidentally making these inconsistencies you've pointed out.
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee
j-j...@nwu.edu
AIM: MahKuRoss ICQ: 4289637
Keith
>Hikaru received a medal of commendation, he was at the end of the line,
>and everyone was head and shoulders taller than he was. Either Hikaru
>is a shrimp, or he was significantly younger than everyone. Max is even
>younger than Hikaru. How much older, however, is tough to guess. And
>as Peter Boulter mentioned, appearance is not always a good way to guess
>how old someone is.
Hikaru & Max were both around 16-17, even at a 10-15 year age gap, the
difference is substancial.
>In the case of whether Max was macronized or not, after considering what
>occurred in prior Macross series, since he's still human size (as is
>Milia), it seems most likely to me that he never was macronized. You
>could (and have) made a better case insisting Exsedol was never
>micronized.
Actually it's a case towards Max's appearance, Exedor never having been
micronized is a seperate matter entirely. Macronization at some point still
remains the best explanation for Max's appearance.
>From DYRL, they indicate that Gorg Bodolzaa is rather ancient.
>Vrlitwhai (or however you want to spell that name) and Exsedol probably
>aren't exactly teeny-boppers. But as far as the original TV show is
>concerned, there really isn't much indication of their ages or
>life-spans, other than the fact that Bodolzaa, Vrlitwhai, and Exsedol
>have been around for longer than 10 years.
We'll have to wait til the sub is released, but somewhere in Robotech there was
reference to either Exedor or Britai being around a while, though that may have
just been something tossed in.
>> >That material is not stock footage from DYRL. It's meant to look like
>> >it came from DYRL, but if you notice carefully, it's slightly
>> >different. IIRC, the entire Macross 7 animation was original for Mac7.
>>
>> I'm well aware that it's not stock footage, though the only scene which may
>> rank under the catagory of intended to look like it was from DYRL is the
>Minmay
>> singing scene. Max & Milia's wedding was never featured in the movie. Of
>course
>> being slightly different (very different in design) is what brings up the
>> questions.
>>
>
>Weren't those pictures of their "wedding" for the Lynn Minmay story? If
>so, that would explain quite a bit.
To dummy up pictures of such a huge event that would most definately have
documented footage very accessable from does not make sense. Besides, the
uniforms they're wearing in the photo's (along with Max's lack of glasses)
supports the Macronization theory.
>It's a bit hard to explain, but here I go. Fans of Macross already know
>what's "official" and what's "fictional." Since all of the info in the
>beginning of each episode is for the viewers, and not particularly
>pertinent to the story, then it's of little consequence to use DYRL or
>the TV series to explain the "past," because people watching already
>know what happened. The stuff in the beginning is only necessary to put
>Mac7 into some sort of context of when things occur.
Exactly, to put it into context, which is why it makes that much less sense to
present fictional events. Besides, when compared with other things such as the
Megeroad-01 launch, Macross-01 colony fleet launch, and the general
mini-overview of the human Zentradi war, those prologues are clearly meant for
background story establishing. With the events of the TV series so well known,
it makes no sense to put out anything contradictiary, unless it's meant to
revise. The Zentradi/Meltrandi/Protoculture history given is very much in
conflict with what's given in the TV series, any way you cut it, there's been a
major story revision which puts some of the events of the tv series out of the
continuity. And the changes reflect a third combination continuity which makes
the events of the movie not "as" fictional as they were originally stated to
be.
They could have just as easily re-animated simular scenes from the TV series,
but in several cases they've animated hybrid events which didn't quite occur in
either, yet reflect both.
>Yeah, this isn't the best explanation I've ever given, so if you would
>like me to explain it further, feel free to ask. Otherwise, I'll quit
>here and avoid rambling off into something irrelevant.
On the merit of the Zentradi alone, all of the events of the original series
just don't fit into 7's continutiy.
>True, though I'm still most inclined to believe that the writers didn't
>do a great job of revising the story in context to the previous works,
>hence accidentally making these inconsistencies you've pointed out.
>
>--
>*****
>Jeffrey T. Jhee
>j-j...@nwu.edu
>AIM: MahKuRoss ICQ: 4289637
Redefining the Zentradi as a whole is entirely too big a thing to do
"accidentally." Besides, Shoji Kawamori had a big hand in 7, and could have
easily caught any such errors. What was done with 7's story looks more than
intentional.
~Keith
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Kanashii dekigotoga blue-ni someta kokoromo
Tenshi no enogu de nurikaeruyo
Omoinomamani -Lynn Minmay
~~~
ORE NO UTA WO KIITE! -Basara Nekki
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Egan Loo
clear up the confusion on the Macross Chronology and answer each question
point by point.
On 7 Oct 1999, KeithL78 wrote:
> >The TV series is clearly official.
>
> Not anymore. The revised Zentradi character designs and the implementation of
> the full Zenran/Meltran split into the continuity alone knock the tv series out
> as fully official cannon. While many aspects do stand, it can't be considered
> complete cannon anymore.
Male and Female Zentradi:
Neither Macross 7 nor any other Studio Nue sequel say that there was full
Zentran/Meltran split and civil war during Space War I (as opposed to
simple side-by-side, male/female division of the Zentradi seen in the
first Macross series). Be careful of confusing the 2031 Do You Remember
Love? film excerpts with what is considered historical events in the
Macross world. Indeed, the liner notes for Macross 7 (Vol. 13)
specifically point out the huge autonomous Meltrandi fleet in "Do You
Remember Love?" was a deviation from historical events.
http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/zentradi/
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/s/space_war_i/
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
> Take a look at Exedor,
Exsedol's appearance in Macross 7:
I'll address Exsedol in more detail below, or you can check out:
http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/f/#folmo_exsedol
> Max's youthful appearance (implying that he was
> macronized at some point much like he was in DYRL),
Max's appearance in Macross 7:
Max's youthful appearance in Macross 7 has nothing to do with the Miclone
system, time dilation, or any other explanation from fan speculation. When
asked, character designer Haruhiko Mikimoto said that Max looks so young
in 2045 "because he's a genius. Growing old is a state of mind for average
men." ^^
http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/j/#JeniusMaximilian
> the actor playing Britai
> (in the Lin Mnmei story) appeared as Britai did in DYRL, while the actor
> playing Kamujin appeared as he did in the TV series (right there is a
> combination of both continuities).
Linn Minmei Story's protrayal:
According to the liner notes -- and indeed, by inference in the Macross 7
animation itself, the later protrayals and people's perceptions of Space
War I (such as the "Linn Minmei Story") were influenced by Do You Remember
Love?, the 2031 film created within the world of Macross itself.
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
> Then you take a look at "Fleet of the Strongest Women," & "Which one do you
> Love." Both episodes giving key info. FotSW presenting new footage of the peace
> treaty between the Macross & Britai's fleet (Britai & Exedor giant, Max &
> Hikaru in their Valkyries painted in the DYRL style, and Captain Global
> standing in front of Britai), Mobile Fortress Bodolza, Hikaru & Misa kissing on
> a table in front of DYRL style Britai & Exedor (as well as the other 3 Zentradi
> spies in soldier uniform) with no one else around (no Hayao, Roy, Kaifun, or
> Minmay, making it yet a third version of that particular event), and a shot of
> the Macross speeding away from the earth with it's cannon damaged & the ARMD
> carriers attached instead of the Daedelus & Prometheus. And of course there's
> the Meltrandi fleet itself, using the DYRL designed ships, uniforms, & mecha,
> instead of the tv series ships (which were just purple versions of the male
> ships, and green somewhat different power armor).
Do You Remember Love? excerpts:
The new Space War I animation in Macross 7 episode 11 ("Minmay Video") and
the third unaired episode ("Fleet of the Strongest Women") are *not*
described as historical footage. The liner notes for those episodes (Vol.
3 & 13) mention the footage as being from Do You Remember Love?, the 2031
film created within the world of Macross itself. In fact, they even
specifically state that Laplamiz's huge autonomous Meltlandi main fleet
was a fictional invention of the film. (The notes also say that the film
used holography to dress up a UN Spacy training ship as the fictional
Boldolzaa Mothership prop. ^^)
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
> While WODYL it's very clearly
> stated (and I'm pretty sure in one of the other episodes as well) that Exedor
> was never micronized (also contradicting the original continuity).
Exsedol and Micloning:
Macross 7 does *not* state that Exsedol was never Micloned. This is an
misinterpretation. The prologues of episode 37 ("Mystery of the Space
Ruins?)" and the second unaired episode ("Which Do You Love?") states that
Exedore is not Micloned now ("maikuroon-ka sareteinai"). They do not say
that Exsedol was never Micloned, which would have been said as "mada
maikuroon-ka sareteinatta kota ga nai" instead. Indeed, the liner notes
for episode 37 (Vol. 7) specifically mention that Exsedol was micloned at
one time in the past.
http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/f/#folmo_exsedol
> The major clue that 7 (and in turn plus) run on a revised continuity, the whole
> "Mystery of the Ruins?" episode, which explains the full seperation between the
> Zentran & Meltran/Protoculture civil war conflict of DYRL, as opposed to the
> males & females just being seperate divisions of the same military of the
> original series.
Protoculture's schism split:
Macross 7 episode 37 ("Mystery of the Ruins?") does not say that the
Protoculture's civil war was waged between Zentradi and Meltlandi
factions. It does say that a war split Protoculture into two (unnamed)
factions -- but the two factions were mentioned in the very first
television series.
http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronology/bc20000000000/
> Also take a look at Milia's flight suit, while it's in the style of the TV
> series ones, the coloring is in the style of Hikaru's flight suit, not hers
> (hers was almost completely red). The pictures of the old soldiers from the
> Silver Paradise are also in uniforms from the TV series, but those can easily
> be considered as dress uniforms, and or only elite squadrens got to wear the
> jumpsuit-ish DYRL style uniforms (just like how only Diamond Force & Emerald
> force get the cooler unfiorms & flight suits).
Milia's flight suit and Valkyrie:
Interestingly, Macross 7 and its related material never say that Milia is
wearing her original flight suit. Indeed, the liner notes (Vol. 5) say
that the "VF-1J Milia Custom" she pilots in Macross 7 is not the original
model from Space War I -- note the different hands and the post-Block 5
cockpit.
http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_nations/variable/vf1/
> A basic combo continuity can be hammered out by the evidence strewn through out
> 7, alone with circumstances of the corresponding events in both the TV series &
> movie, though there are definately still a good number of gray area's. What's
> certain though is that the TV series most definately does not stand as the
> definitive continuity anymore, many aspects of it do, but others just plain
> don't. The overall result is that DYRL isn't "as" fictional a movie as many
> say, a lot of it's revised events (or events in the style of the movie) have
> been integrated. To ignore that would be to ignore Plus, 7, and Shoji
> Kawamori.
Actually, the reverse is true -- to say that the first series is not the
basis for the Macross Chronology would be to ignore Plus, 7, and Shouji
Kawamori's writings. ^^
> I actually hope that they decide to remake the original series as a 20th or
> 25th anniversary project, but I kinda doubt it for the same reason that there
> won't be a follow up on those characters, the death of Hikaru's voice actor.
Interestingly, Shouji Kawamori talks often with his fellow creators within
the last two years, and they contemplated remaking the first Macross with
computer graphics. Keep in mind that he said he is not interested in
*continuing* Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay's story beyond the closure of Flash
Back 2012 -- just remaking their love story with the latest animation
techniques. (He decided that Flash Back 2012 was their story closure in
1987, almost a decade before voice actor Arihiro Hase's tragic passing.)
Why computer graphics? Well, as he noted, it's been over fifteen years
since the first Macross, and those years have taken a toll on the original
animators' hands. ^^
Egan Loo
ega...@anime.net
George Edward Purdy
In Robotech they are called micronians. In Macross
they are micrones, which Egan Loo has decided to
translate as miclone. I do find it interesting that
someone who filled his web site with the romanizations
from the ARII model kits (Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, etc.)
doesn't use the ARII romanization of Zentradi, Zjentohi Auedy.
Maybe because he's not such an authority on the subject?
Maybe because the Macross Compendium is not really an
official site for the show(s)? Maybe because, despite his
misrepresentation, there IS NO CONTINUITY? Macross does
not all fit together in a tidy package, despite the attempts
to make it fit on the part of revisionists. Sorry.
Windjammer wrote:
> I found your post to be enlightening. :) Thank you for clearing that up. I
> do have a question for you which is somewhat more personal and related to
> the Macross Compendium... Why "Zentradi"? Why do you use the romanticized
> form of the word? I know there have been many English-written variations of
> the word, but why not use the spelling that appears in English on a Studio
> Nue illustration sheet for the U.N. Spacy/Zentradi truce ceremony in DYRL?
> (Gold Book Page 299) "Zjentohlauedy" is depicted in the animation in
> Zentradi language script as well as on ARII model boxes. The phrase "Micron
> System" can also be seen on screen. Can I ask what sources have you made
> reference to for using the word "miclone" instead of "miron"? What is your
> bases? There is also the use of the word "micronian" in the original Macross
> television series.
>
> --
>
> Windjammer, NMMA
> web: www.nmma.fini.net
> email: nm...@home.net
>
> Egan Loo <ega...@anime.net> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.10.991012...@anime.net...
YF21Bowman
>From: George Edward Purdy slo...@sig.net
>Date: Fri, 22 October 1999 11:38 PM EDT
>Message-id: <38112D99...@sig.net>
>
>I think you're confusing Macross and Robotech.
>In Robotech they are called micronians. In Macross
>they are micrones, which Egan Loo has decided to
>translate as miclone. I do find it interesting that
>someone who filled his web site with the romanizations
>from the ARII model kits (Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, etc.)
>doesn't use the ARII romanization of Zentradi, Zjentohi Auedy.
>Maybe because he's not such an authority on the subject?
>Maybe because the Macross Compendium is not really an
>official site for the show(s)? Maybe because, despite his
>misrepresentation, there IS NO CONTINUITY? Macross does
>not all fit together in a tidy package, despite the attempts
>to make it fit on the part of revisionists. Sorry.
>
He's the closest thing we've got to an authority, and if he's not perfect, he's
pretty damn close.
Guld Bowman
YF21B...@aol.com ICQ#=32965161
"They say God lives inside you. Well, I hope he likes enchiladas 'cause that's
what He's gettin"-Jack Handey, SNL "Deep Thoughts"
O.D.
I'm having a nice pedestal made for him, I just need to know his height...
And I need to figure out the right positioning and lighting so he'll look
good at the Smithsonian...
Or maybe he should be a travelling exhibit?
I dunno...
(O.D.: he's THINKING.)
YF21Bowman <yf21b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991022234141...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: A few Macross Q's
> >From: George Edward Purdy slo...@sig.net
> >Date: Fri, 22 October 1999 11:38 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <38112D99...@sig.net>
> >
> >I think you're confusing Macross and Robotech.
> >In Robotech they are called micronians. In Macross
> >they are micrones, which Egan Loo has decided to
> >translate as miclone. I do find it interesting that
> >someone who filled his web site with the romanizations
> >from the ARII model kits (Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, etc.)
> >doesn't use the ARII romanization of Zentradi, Zjentohi Auedy.
> >Maybe because he's not such an authority on the subject?
> >Maybe because the Macross Compendium is not really an
> >official site for the show(s)? Maybe because, despite his
> >misrepresentation, there IS NO CONTINUITY? Macross does
> >not all fit together in a tidy package, despite the attempts
> >to make it fit on the part of revisionists. Sorry.
> >
>
Windjammer
George Edward Purdy <slo...@sig.net> wrote in message
news:38112D99...@sig.net...
> I think you're confusing Macross and Robotech.
Me? HA HAH HAH HAAA HAAA!!!! LOL!!!!! ^O^;;;;;;;;;;;;
> In Robotech they are called micronians.
I seem to recall the first episode of the TV version of Macross (in Japanese
with English Subtitles) having Vrlitwhai say the word "micronians". :)
In Macross
> they are micrones, which Egan Loo has decided to
> translate as miclone. I do find it interesting that
> someone who filled his web site with the romanizations
> from the ARII model kits (Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, etc.)
Me too. :) I think he was trying to say us typing time. :)
> doesn't use the ARII romanization of Zentradi, Zjentohi Auedy.
> Maybe because he's not such an authority on the subject?
He an authority on the subject. No one is perfect though.
> Maybe because the Macross Compendium is not really an
> official site for the show(s)?
It's an officially licensed site...
Maybe because, despite his
> misrepresentation, there IS NO CONTINUITY?
Sure there is a continuity. It might look something like swiss cheese but
there is certainly one.
Keith
>In Robotech they are called micronians. In Macross
>they are micrones, which Egan Loo has decided to
>translate as miclone.
And I tend to spell as "micron" there is more than one way to romanize. And
regardless of whether you're using an "r" or an "l," but meanings fit. Zentradi
are cloned, they assume humans are as well, and humans are in a minature state,
so naturally "miclone" (a combo word between micro and clone) may apply. Of
course at the same time the exact same combination can be used using "micro" as
the main basis. You can also get into semantics over whether there is indeed an
"e" at the end, since straight romanization would be pronounced "mi-croh-neh,"
when it clearly seems to stop at the "n" sound.
>I do find it interesting that
>someone who filled his web site with the romanizations
>from the ARII model kits (Vrlitwhai, Quamzin, etc.)
>doesn't use the ARII romanization of Zentradi, Zjentohi Auedy.
>Maybe because he's not such an authority on the subject?
I find it interesting that you're questioning someones merrit strictly on the
basis of the romanizations they choose to use. It's not like he's calling Milia
"Miriya." The model kits are officially licensed, and while that does not make
them absolute undeniable cannon, it does give their awkward romanizations some
merit (though it would apppear that in most cases it was a matter of
phonetically romanizing than straight romanizing).
>Maybe because the Macross Compendium is not really an
>official site for the show(s)?
Have you seen the official site? Are you aware that 99.89% of the time,
"official" sites suck ass compared to a well composed fan site? It's all about
dedication, and most times official sites aren't run by people dedicated to the
subject matter, just some random web publishing firm. Or do you wish to argue
now that the true translated title of the show should be "Ultra Space Time
Fortress Macross."
>Maybe because, despite his
>misrepresentation, there IS NO CONTINUITY? Macross does
>not all fit together in a tidy package, despite the attempts
>to make it fit on the part of revisionists. Sorry.
Or maybe you've got a bug up your butt about something you're not letting on?
Macross does have a continuity, in fact it has a choice between two. If Macross
II counted (which it doesn't), it wouild have 3. While it would appear that his
sole argument against my interpretation of how DYRL & the TV series could form
a hybrid continuty that could be carried through Macross 7 with support from 7,
was based on liner notes that I don't have access to, and even if I did, I'm
not familiar enough with Japanese to even begin to make heads or tales (though
I can read the word Macross, what more do i need for now? heh). He has
absolutely no reason to lie or fabricate anything, and even if he tried, there
are others with access to the exact same material that both could have and
would have come up and cleared up any deceptions by now. But as of yet, I've
not come across any anti-Macross Compendium sites, or any adendum sites.
Apparently you do have some major beef that you're not sharing though, so by
all means go ahead and tell what your specific problems are with his continuity
(and I very much do hope it's more than just romanizations) so that they can
be discussed, personal attacks both take away from your argument, and don't
really address anything at all.
I can't help but think this has something to do with you being bitter about
Macross II being excluded from the continuity, despite the fact that it more
than earned its place in obscurity from the official timeline. Though we won't
know until you actually share what your problem is.
To wrap this up for now though, until such time as you decide to bring up your
beef's to debate them specifically, you don't have to agree with someone in
order to acknowledge thier knowledge of things. And it's customary to bring up
specific examples of what your dispute is with (and no, romanizations alone
just does not cut it) someone rather than going for the quick slander route.
Assuming I'm the "revisionist" you were referring to, even enacting a revised
conitnuity, one still exists and fits nicely.
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Windjammer wrote:
>
> George Edward Purdy <slo...@sig.net> wrote in message
> news:38112D99...@sig.net...
> > I think you're confusing Macross and Robotech.
>
> Me? HA HAH HAH HAAA HAAA!!!! LOL!!!!! ^O^;;;;;;;;;;;;
>
> > In Robotech they are called micronians.
>
> I seem to recall the first episode of the TV version of Macross (in Japanese
> with English Subtitles) having Vrlitwhai say the word "micronians". :)
I don't recall ever hearing this, but you might be correct. Perhaps you
were thinking of the Streamline subtitling effort? Vrlitwhai clearly
says something similar to "microne," but Streamline used the RT term.
Windjammer
as well. I'll have to look at the tape.
Windjammer, NMMA
web: www.nmma.fini.net
email: nm...@home.net
Jeffrey T. Jhee <j-j...@nwu.edu> wrote in message
news:38122F58...@nwu.edu...
>
>
> Windjammer wrote:
> >
> > George Edward Purdy <slo...@sig.net> wrote in message
> > news:38112D99...@sig.net...
> > > I think you're confusing Macross and Robotech.
> >
> > Me? HA HAH HAH HAAA HAAA!!!! LOL!!!!! ^O^;;;;;;;;;;;;
> >
> > > In Robotech they are called micronians.
> >
> > I seem to recall the first episode of the TV version of Macross (in
Japanese
> > with English Subtitles) having Vrlitwhai say the word "micronians". :)
>
Egan Loo
> I found your post to be enlightening. :) Thank you for clearing that up. I
> do have a question for you which is somewhat more personal and related to
> the Macross Compendium... Why "Zentradi"? Why do you use the romanticized
> form of the word? I know there have been many English-written variations of
> the word, but why not use the spelling that appears in English on a Studio
> Nue illustration sheet for the U.N. Spacy/Zentradi truce ceremony in DYRL?
> (Gold Book Page 299) "Zjentohlauedy" is depicted in the animation in
> Zentradi language script as well as on ARII model boxes. The phrase "Micron
> System" can also be seen on screen. Can I ask what sources have you made
> reference to for using the word "miclone" instead of "miron"? What is your
> bases? There is also the use of the word "micronian" in the original Macross
> television series.
As a general rule of thumb, I take the video and print material over
models, material from the first Macross series and its sequels over Do You
Remember Love? material, and the creators' own intentions and statements
above them all. It's the last guideline that's the case for Miclone, as
relayed via Neil Nadelman, translator and subtitler of several Macross
projects for Manga Entertainment and other companies.
http://www.anime.net/macross/introduction/editorial_notes/
Zentradi/Zjentohlauedy is a special case since they were both used for
Studio Nue works besides Do You Remember Love? (namely, first Macross
notes). I've checked into this before, and Studio Nue simply did not have
a preference, even less so than in the Lynn Minmay/Linn Minmei double
spellings. I can ask the creators if they have leaned toward one or the
other within the last year, but I doubt their position (or the lack
thereof) has changed. ^^ I'm adding a mention of the different spellings
in the Macross Compendium's enyclopedia entry on the army, similarly to
the mention for the Minmay/Minmei spellings in her Characters entry.
Naturally, Romanizations (even those onscreen) are not necessarily set in
stone, and the creators might clarify their intent later or wish they
could clean up a mistake after the fact. For example, I mentioned to the
Macross Digital Mission VF-X producer Hiroshi Ueda in December 1996 that
"broken enemy" on the virtual HUD is simply inappropriate (not to mention
the wrong stats on some fighters' listings) -- but by then, it was too
late to edit the game. ^^; (And then there's Varauta/Barota, Gamlin/Gamrin
...)
[By the way, "micronian" in the first Macross series? ^^]
Egan Loo
ega...@anime.net
Egan Loo
> >Well, I finally found the message that started this confusion. ^^ I'll
> >clear up the confusion on the Macross Chronology and answer each question
> >point by point.
>
> So far this stands up. As a side note, and as a side spare time project, have
> you considered translating the whole of the Macross 7 liner notes, and throwing
> them up in their own section of the Macross Compendium?
All things being equal, I rather be translating the Macross Perfect
Memory. ^^ In any case, it's more appropriate (and more straightforward to
get permission) to compile information and to quote references instead of
word-for-word translations.
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/s/space_war_i/
>
> "Shouji Kawamori and the rest of Studio Nue have left their options open on
> which version protrays the war the most accurately. ("The real Macross is out
> there, somewhere. If I tell the story in the length of a TV series, it looks
> one way, and if I tell it as a movie-length story, it's organized another
> way.") For the Macross Chronology that provides the framework for all Macross
> projects by Studio Nue however, Kawamori and Chiba Masahiro decided to rely on
> the television series's story."
>
> It smells like relying soley on the original continuity (except for designs)
> was a later decision in general, or a teetering one. Perhaps the reason 7 is
> left so open to both is for any future change of heart.
The decision was actually made before Macross 7 and Macross Plus were
released when Shouji Kawamori and Studio Nue returned to Macross.
http://www.ex.org/3.3/06-feature_macross3.html
> Was this set of production notes from 7 as well?
This is culled from a few interviews from Shouji Kawamori.
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
>
> "Production Notes: Several episodes of Macross 7, particularly episode 11
> ("Minmay Video") and the third unaired episode ("Fleet of Strongest Women"),
> excerpted the Do You Remember Love? film. This film purportedly produced within
> the world of Macross has several differences from the similarly named film, The
> Super Dimension Fortress Macross [the Movie]: Do You Remember Love? (1984). The
> 2031 film in the Macross world has Max and Milia fighting in space, which did
> not occur in either the 1984 film, or the first Macross series (1982). It also
> protrays Max and Milia's marriage which was not included in the 1984 film."
>
> This is directly quoted from the 7 liner notes/production notes as well?
This was compiled primarily from the liner notes (Vol. 1, 3, 13) and from
talking to Kawamori.
> >Exsedol's appearance in Macross 7:
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/f/#folmo_exsedol
>
> Out of curiosity, what resource did the explanation of his restructuring come
> from?
The note about restructuring came from the Macross 7 liner notes
(Vol. 7).
> >Max's appearance in Macross 7:
> >Max's youthful appearance in Macross 7 has nothing to do with the Miclone
> >system, time dilation, or any other explanation from fan speculation. When
> >asked, character designer Haruhiko Mikimoto said that Max looks so young
> >in 2045 "because he's a genius. Growing old is a state of mind for average
> >men." ^^
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/j/#JeniusMaximilian
>
> That doesn't actually rule out the possability :)
Actually, it does rule out the Zentradi Miclone System. ^^ Mikimoto was
responding to a question that compared Max's looks with Milia's equally
youthful looks. The interviewer thought it had to do with Zentradi mojo,
which is what Mikimoto was trying to correct. (After all, Vrlitwhai was 34
years old in the first Macross series -- but the years weren't as kind to
him then as they are to the Jeniuses circa 2045. ^^;)
http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/k/#kridanik_vrlitwhai
> >Linn Minmei Story's protrayal:
> >According to the liner notes -- and indeed, by inference in the Macross 7
> >animation itself, the later protrayals and people's perceptions of Space
> >War I (such as the "Linn Minmei Story") were influenced by Do You Remember
> >Love?, the 2031 film created within the world of Macross itself.
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
>
> But still, I'm curious as to the whole
> Macross Universe getting a better version of the movie than we did thing.
> Specifically in the 7 liner notes?
The Macross world 2031 film material is somewhat different from our 1984
film, but I suppose whether it is also better is a matter of opinion. ^^;
The difference (beyond what is apparent by watching it) is noted in the
liner notes for Macross 7 Vol. 3, as well in the various articles that
were written at the time episode 11 ("Minmay Video") first aired.
> >> Then you take a look at "Fleet of the Strongest Women," & "Which one do you
> >> Love." Both episodes giving key info. FotSW presenting new footage of the
> >
> >Do You Remember Love? excerpts:
> >The new Space War I animation in Macross 7 episode 11 ("Minmay Video") and
> >the third unaired episode ("Fleet of the Strongest Women") are *not*
> >described as historical footage. The liner notes for those episodes (Vol.
> >3 & 13) mention the footage as being from Do You Remember Love?, the 2031
> >film created within the world of Macross itself. In fact, they even
> >specifically state that Laplamiz's huge autonomous Meltlandi main fleet
> >was a fictional invention of the film. (The notes also say that the film
> >used holography to dress up a UN Spacy training ship as the fictional
> >Boldolzaa Mothership prop. ^^)
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/story/encyclopedia/d/do_you_remember_love/
>
> Again, neat and tidy, with room to swing the other way had they decided to go
> in the other direction. Definately can't say they don't cover their asses. :)
They were most certainly covering their, ah, options, but they had made
the decision to base the Macross Chronology on the television series'
lineup of events before then.
> >> While WODYL it's very clearly
> >> stated (and I'm pretty sure in one of the other episodes as well) that
> >Exedor
> >> was never micronized (also contradicting the original continuity).
> >
> >Exsedol and Micloning:
> >Macross 7 does *not* state that Exsedol was never Micloned. This is an
> >misinterpretation. The prologues of episode 37 ("Mystery of the Space
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/characters/f/#folmo_exsedol
>
> Interesting, though my misunderstanding can be blamed on a mistranslation in
> not 1, but 2 Psycho Korps (I actually have mostly Jimaku fansubs, but they run
> with versions of the Psycho Korps scripts) trasnlations. First in Episode 37
> Exedore, Advisor to the Unified Army, has not even undergone Miclonization."
>
> Then in "Which One Do You Love?"
>
> "UN SPACY Advisor, Exedore, is a Zentradi who has not been miclonized.
You seem to be interpreting a "never" in those lines that's simply not
there. ^^ The "even" in the first line is from "sara ni," which means
"even" in the sense of "further(more)." It's not "even" in the sense of
"yet."
It's not just semantics: the key differences between the phrase "is not
Micloned/has not been Micloned" ("maikuroon-ka sareteinai") and "was never
Micloned/has never been Micloned" ("mada maikuroon-ka sareteita kota ga
nai") is that the later misinterpretation rules out Micloning in the past
-- while the Vol. 7 liner notes specifically says Exsedol was Micloned
at one time in the past.
> >Protoculture's schism split:
> >Macross 7 episode 37 ("Mystery of the Ruins?") does not say that the
> >Protoculture's civil war was waged between Zentradi and Meltlandi
> >factions. It does say that a war split Protoculture into two (unnamed)
> >factions -- but the two factions were mentioned in the very first
> >television series.
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronology/bc20000000000/
>
> Again, smells like one of those things that can go either way depending on
> which the writers feel they want to go with, and specifically engineered to do
> so.
Keep in mind that two initial factions of Protoculture (not the later
Zentradi and Supervision split, but the ones that paved the way before)
were also left open in the first series, before any other Macross project
was even conceived.
> As yet another side question though, regarding:
>
> "PC 5000
> In what still remains of the Stellar Republic, only a small number of separated
> colonized planets, colonization fleets, space colony clusters [bunches], and
> other populations at the edge of the galaxy are left.
>
> Is Zola supposed to be another forgotten colony (like Earth)? The question
Zola is another race pushed up the evolutionary ladder like Humans.
> >Milia's flight suit and Valkyrie:
> >Interestingly, Macross 7 and its related material never say that Milia is
> >wearing her original flight suit. Indeed, the liner notes (Vol. 5) say
> >that the "VF-1J Milia Custom" she pilots in Macross 7 is not the original
> >model from Space War I -- note the different hands and the post-Block 5
> >cockpit.
> >
> >http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_nations/variable/vf1/
>
> Again left intentionally ambiguos it would seem.
That's why it's precarious to make assumptions like those made earlier on
this thread. To paraphrase Freud, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ^^
> >Interestingly, Shouji Kawamori talks often with his fellow creators within
> >the last two years, and they contemplated remaking the first Macross with
> >computer graphics. Keep in mind that he said he is not interested in
> >*continuing* Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay's story beyond the closure of Flash
> >Back 2012 -- just remaking their love story with the latest animation
> >techniques. (He decided that Flash Back 2012 was their story closure in
> >1987, almost a decade before voice actor Arihiro Hase's tragic passing.)
>
> >Why computer graphics? Well, as he noted, it's been over fifteen years
> >since the first Macross, and those years have taken a toll on the original
> >animators' hands. ^^
>
> I'd hope they would use the Macross 7 animators instead, since they did pretty
> good work for a TV series sized budget. Though do you know if he specifically
> meant a full remake (including re-recording the audio), just retouching the
> already existing animation with CG, or re-using the already existing audio and
> replacing the animation completely with CG?
Kawamori and the other creators have only contemplated the possibilities
of a remake without detailing the specifics even in his mind -- he's more
interested in creating new stories, Macross or otherwise. ^^
> And
> the next few years would be the perfect time for such a project.
If considered, it will have to wait in line. ^^; Kawamori has said that
before he would consider a remake, he would have other projects to keep
his attention. He and others later described some of these projects, such
as supervising the Escaflowne movie, assisting the Cowboy Bebop movie,
planning two non-Macross television projects, designing Armored Core 2 for
the Sony PlayStation 2 (formerly for Sega Dreamcast), and working on a few
other projects ....
http://www.ex.org/3.6/10-feature_kawamori2.html
http://www.ex.org/4.5/18-interview_kanno3.html
Egan Loo
ega...@anime.net
George Edward Purdy
Keith wrote:
Have you seen the official site? Are you aware that 99.89% of the time,
> "official" sites suck ass compared to a well composed fan site? It's all about
> dedication, and most times official sites aren't run by people dedicated to the
> subject matter, just some random web publishing firm. Or do you wish to argue
> now that the true translated title of the show should be "Ultra Space Time
> Fortress Macross."
>
The title for the show is NOT TRANSLATED. There is an English language title
for the show chosen by the studio, and that title is
Super Dimension Fortress Macross
and there is a Japanese title for the show,
Cho JiKuu Yosai Makurosu
also chosen by the original studio.
The fact that the current holder of the rights in Japan has put another
English title on their web site is irrelevant. It doesn't change the reality
of what the original title was when the show first aired.
> Or maybe you've got a bug up your butt about something you're not letting on?
> Macross does have a continuity, in fact it has a choice between two. If Macross
> II counted (which it doesn't), it wouild have 3. While it would appear that his
> sole argument against my interpretation of how DYRL & the TV series could form
> a hybrid continuty that could be carried through Macross 7 with support from 7,
> was based on liner notes that I don't have access to, and even if I did, I'm
> not familiar enough with Japanese to even begin to make heads or tales (though
> I can read the word Macross, what more do i need for now? heh). He has
> absolutely no reason to lie or fabricate anything, and even if he tried, there
> are others with access to the exact same material that both could have and
> would have come up and cleared up any deceptions by now. But as of yet, I've
> not come across any anti-Macross Compendium sites, or any adendum sites.
>
Fans try to come up with excuses and piece together things that
don't fit. Many Robotech fans rely on the McKinney novels for that.
My "beef" as you put it, is that there have been a lot of contradictory
things in the overall Macross continuity, just like there have been with
Star Trek, Star Wars, et al. Most of the time attempts to "fix" a broken
continuity involve revisionism, the effort to change the past to fit a
new model.
It's not nearly as objectionable as when neo-Nazis try to revise history
in regards to the holocaust, or when extremist Christian groups try to
make all the contradictions in the Bible make sense, but it's basically
the same idea.
When someone tries to make you think something has perfect continuity
when it clearly doesn't is lying to you. It's wishful thinking at best, and a
breach of literary integrity at its worst.
>
> Apparently you do have some major beef that you're not sharing though, so by
> all means go ahead and tell what your specific problems are with his continuity
> (and I very much do hope it's more than just romanizations) so that they can
> be discussed, personal attacks both take away from your argument, and don't
> really address anything at all.
>
> I can't help but think this has something to do with you being bitter about
> Macross II being excluded from the continuity, despite the fact that it more
> than earned its place in obscurity from the official timeline. Though we won't
> know until you actually share what your problem is.
>
I don't like Macross II especially, and I don't like people who try to
second-guess me.
Keith
>for the show chosen by the studio, and that title is
>Super Dimension Fortress Macross
>and there is a Japanese title for the show,
>Cho JiKuu Yosai Makurosu
>also chosen by the original studio.
>
>The fact that the current holder of the rights in Japan has put another
>English title on their web site is irrelevant. It doesn't change the reality
>of what the original title was when the show first aired.
Pssst, the current rights holder is the same exact rights holder that has held
the rights all along, Big West. The point is we're dealing with not only
romanizations, but also translations, both of which cause things to vary. Super
Dimensonal is a perfectly viable translation when used in the tense of the
title. And yes, even "Super Dimension" is a translation of "Chojiku Yosai," I
don't see how you could possably not call that a translation, just what do you
think the Japanese title means anyway?
>Fans try to come up with excuses and piece together things that
>don't fit. Many Robotech fans rely on the McKinney novels for that.
And many others curse the Mykinney novels, this is however an entirely
different situation.
>My "beef" as you put it, is that there have been a lot of contradictory
>things in the overall Macross continuity, just like there have been with
>Star Trek, Star Wars, et al. Most of the time attempts to "fix" a broken
>continuity involve revisionism, the effort to change the past to fit a
>new model.
And yet you still neglect to mention one of these such continuity errors.
>It's not nearly as objectionable as when neo-Nazis try to revise history
>in regards to the holocaust, or when extremist Christian groups try to
>make all the contradictions in the Bible make sense, but it's basically
>the same idea.
Again, examples would help your case greatly.
>When someone tries to make you think something has perfect continuity
>when it clearly doesn't is lying to you. It's wishful thinking at best, and a
>breach of literary integrity at its worst.
You're making the claims, but still fail to back them up
>I don't like Macross II especially, and I don't like people who try to
>second-guess me.
Macross II isn't part of the Macross continuity, and as such isn't an example
of an inconsistency. Because it failed to stay true to any type of continuity,
and badly ripped off DYRL, it was abandoned. Hell, it wasn't even worked on by
Kawamori or Studio Nue, yet claimed they were consulted on the mecha design.
You're going ot have to come up with a better example than that.
As for not liking to be second guessed, I suggest you get used to it real
quick, otherwise you'll have many a trouble dealing with people as a whole
period.
An Obssesed Sci-Fi Fan
>>make all the contradictions in the Bible make sense
Ummm, actually there are no contradictions in the Bible. BTW, Please don't call
us Christains extremists.
"If you think of them as two guys in rubber suits, it's real sad."--Crow, MST3K
CokaCola Cat
basically one long contradiction. The same story told differently by
different followers of Jesus. And thats a fact.
The Cat
In article <19991113165448...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
fort...@aol.com says...
George Edward Purdy
before everyone gets it. The English title is not
merely a translation of the Japanese title. It is
an English title which was devised as the original
title. It is not the invention of English-speaking fans.
If anything, the title was conceived IN ENGLISH and
translated INTO JAPANESE. Those of you who may
underestimate the prevalence of English in Japan
may find this odd, but the average Japanese person
knows English up to about a 6th grade level.
The title wasn't conceived as Makurosu, it was
conceived as Macross and "makurosu" is just the
katakana for that.
Keith wrote:
> >The title for the show is NOT TRANSLATED. There is an English language title
> >for the show chosen by the studio, and that title is
> >Super Dimension Fortress Macross
> >and there is a Japanese title for the show,
> >Cho JiKuu Yosai Makurosu
> >also chosen by the original studio.
> >
> >The fact that the current holder of the rights in Japan has put another
> >English title on their web site is irrelevant. It doesn't change the reality
> >of what the original title was when the show first aired.
>
> Pssst, the current rights holder is the same exact rights holder that has held
> the rights all along, Big West. The point is we're dealing with not only
> romanizations, but also translations, both of which cause things to vary. Super
> Dimensonal is a perfectly viable translation when used in the tense of the
> title. And yes, even "Super Dimension" is a translation of "Chojiku Yosai," I
> don't see how you could possably not call that a translation, just what do you
> think the Japanese title means anyway?
>
>
> Macross II isn't part of the Macross continuity, and as such isn't an example
> of an inconsistency. Because it failed to stay true to any type of continuity,
> and badly ripped off DYRL, it was abandoned. Hell, it wasn't even worked on by
> Kawamori or Studio Nue, yet claimed they were consulted on the mecha design.
> You're going ot have to come up with a better example than that.
>
Again, Macross II was NOT my example. Someone responding to me
gave that as an example. I did not.
Everyone in this newsgroup should know tons of things that
either don't fit the timeline, don't jive with other concepts in the
show, or just don't make sense. That's just the nature of any show
of more than a certain degree of complexity.
>
> As for not liking to be second guessed, I suggest you get used to it real
> quick, otherwise you'll have many a trouble dealing with people as a whole
> period.
Only internerds. Not real people.
Keith
>call
>us Christains extremists.
Oh come on, the bible is full of more holes than a really holey thing....
George Edward Purdy
automatically think I'm talking about you? You automatically
think I'm saying that ALL Christians are extremists?
As for contradictions...
http://www.srsr.org/
http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
http://www.beconvinced.com/RELIGION/BIBLECONDRADI.htm
http://hem.passagen.se/nicb/contradict.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4contr90.html
...and this is getting farther and farther off topic. Let's not and say
we did.
An Obssesed Sci-Fi Fan wrote:
> >mist Christian groups try to
> >>make all the contradictions in the Bible make sense
>
> Ummm, actually there are no contradictions in the Bible. BTW, Please don't call
> us Christains extremists.
>
> "If you think of them as two guys in rubber suits, it's real sad."--Crow, MST3K
--
_________________________________________________________
Win a FREE trip to Hawaii!
Go here for details:
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CokaCola Cat
Fortress Macross". Now, that said, the title of the show is Super
Dimension Fortress Macross, its just that Dimension translates into
Japanese as "Space-Time" (which I may remind you all if the "4th
Dimension"). Thats how I pretty much always understood it.
The Cat
In article <382DEBA4...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
Keith
>before everyone gets it. The English title is not
>merely a translation of the Japanese title. It is
>an English title which was devised as the original
>title. It is not the invention of English-speaking fans.
>If anything, the title was conceived IN ENGLISH and
>translated INTO JAPANESE. Those of you who may
>underestimate the prevalence of English in Japan
>may find this odd, but the average Japanese person
>knows English up to about a 6th grade level.
>The title wasn't conceived as Makurosu, it was
>conceived as Macross and "makurosu" is just the
>katakana for that.
Was the name chosen at random? Did Kawamori and the others toss a bunch of
random english words into a hat and pick a few at random? No, they decided on
the name first. And while Macross may be written in Kana, you'll note that
Chojiu Yosai is right above it in Kanji. It's not even freakin' relivent which
language they thought up the title first, the point is that it means the same
damned thing in both, and as such Dimensional stands as a perfectly viable
translation.
As for english being used at all, it was a United Nations Spacy ship, as such
it wouldn't make much sense to have everything in Japanese would it?
>Again, Macross II was NOT my example. Someone responding to me
>gave that as an example. I did not.
Then what IS your example, you've yet to show anything except disputing
romanizations.
>Everyone in this newsgroup should know tons of things that
>either don't fit the timeline, don't jive with other concepts in the
>show, or just don't make sense. That's just the nature of any show
>of more than a certain degree of complexity.
Unless it has a tight continuity, and you've presented zip to negate that. You
brought it up, so here's your chance, what are some of these blarring
continuity errors you're talking about? Aside from inconsistencies in size and
transformation in the animation, it wasn't the highest budget show to begin
with.
>Only internerds. Not real people.
Hate to break it to you, but people on the net are real people, not a bunch of
military super computers sitting here chatting for your entertainment.
Insulting doesn't exactly help your argument a ton either. You've yet to bring
up anything except for romanizations, and that was weeks ago. And again, if you
don't like people second guessing you, then aside from being very insecure,
you've got a tuugh road ahead.
CPT Frog
TALK MACROSS
or atleast something anime related.
Frog
George Edward Purdy
as space-time (it's a combination of two characters) and
was chosen as the word for "dimension" in the title.
The problem with mentioning the fourth dimension is
that it's like an invitation to all the junior physicists in
the group to lecture us on how THE fourth dimension
is time, even though the sci-fi concept of "the fourth
dimension" came from the concept of hyperspace, a
mathematically theoretical space comprised of four
or more Euclidean spatial dimensions (not taking the
temporal dimension into account).
Just watch the reactions this message alone will
likely generate.
http://www.sig.net/~slogan/anime/
CokaCola Cat wrote:
> I believe the true translation for the Japanese title is "Space-Time
> Fortress Macross". Now, that said, the title of the show is Super
> Dimension Fortress Macross, its just that Dimension translates into
> Japanese as "Space-Time" (which I may remind you all if the "4th
> Dimension"). Thats how I pretty much always understood it.
>
> The Cat
>
> In article <382DEBA4...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
> > I don't know how many times I have to say this
> > before everyone gets it. The English title is not
> > merely a translation of the Japanese title. It is
> > an English title which was devised as the original
> > title. It is not the invention of English-speaking fans.
> > If anything, the title was conceived IN ENGLISH and
> > translated INTO JAPANESE. Those of you who may
> > underestimate the prevalence of English in Japan
> > may find this odd, but the average Japanese person
> > knows English up to about a 6th grade level.
> > The title wasn't conceived as Makurosu, it was
> > conceived as Macross and "makurosu" is just the
> > katakana for that.
> >
> > Keith wrote:
> >
> > > >The title for the show is NOT TRANSLATED. There is an English language title
> > > >for the show chosen by the studio, and that title is
> > > >Super Dimension Fortress Macross
> > > >and there is a Japanese title for the show,
> > > >Cho JiKuu Yosai Makurosu
> > > >also chosen by the original studio.
> > > >
> > > >The fact that the current holder of the rights in Japan has put another
> > > >English title on their web site is irrelevant. It doesn't change the reality
> > > >of what the original title was when the show first aired.
> > >
> > > Pssst, the current rights holder is the same exact rights holder that has held
> > > the rights all along, Big West. The point is we're dealing with not only
> > > romanizations, but also translations, both of which cause things to vary. Super
> > > Dimensonal is a perfectly viable translation when used in the tense of the
> > > title. And yes, even "Super Dimension" is a translation of "Chojiku Yosai," I
> > > don't see how you could possably not call that a translation, just what do you
> > > think the Japanese title means anyway?
> > >
> > >
> > > Macross II isn't part of the Macross continuity, and as such isn't an example
> > > of an inconsistency. Because it failed to stay true to any type of continuity,
> > > and badly ripped off DYRL, it was abandoned. Hell, it wasn't even worked on by
> > > Kawamori or Studio Nue, yet claimed they were consulted on the mecha design.
> > > You're going ot have to come up with a better example than that.
> > >
> >
> > Again, Macross II was NOT my example. Someone responding to me
> > gave that as an example. I did not.
> >
> > Everyone in this newsgroup should know tons of things that
> > either don't fit the timeline, don't jive with other concepts in the
> > show, or just don't make sense. That's just the nature of any show
> > of more than a certain degree of complexity.
--
George Edward Purdy
and "dimnsional" are not being used as a translation for
Jikuu (which, by the way, is a noun), the English title
for the series is Super Dimension Fortress Macross, not
"dimensional", and the English title DOES appear on lots
and lots of official Macross merchandise, from books to
laser discs to all manner of things. Just because it uses
kanji in the title on screen in the television series, you
think that's the only title selected for the show by the
studio, but it's not. The phrase "super dimension" was
used in three series titles, a very specific English phrase.
It's not uncommon for Japanese studios to use specific
English titles for series in this way. For example, the
series Aura Battler Dunbine is called Sei Senshi Dunbine
in Japanese. That's certainly not a translation of the
Japanese titled. Hmm, but somehow they keep saying
the words "Aura Battler Dunbine" in the themesong.
Japanese studios frequently select a specific Japanese
title and a specific English title for a show. I could give
you a long list of examples, but I don't see the point.
If you don't get it, you're just determined not to get it.
Revisionism doesn't change the title of the show. Fan
errors don't change the title of the show.
If you call a cow's tail a leg, how many legs does it have?
Five? Wrong. Calling a cow's tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
Keith wrote:
> >I don't know how many times I have to say this
> >before everyone gets it. The English title is not
> >merely a translation of the Japanese title. It is
> >an English title which was devised as the original
> >title. It is not the invention of English-speaking fans.
> >If anything, the title was conceived IN ENGLISH and
> >translated INTO JAPANESE. Those of you who may
> >underestimate the prevalence of English in Japan
> >may find this odd, but the average Japanese person
> >knows English up to about a 6th grade level.
> >The title wasn't conceived as Makurosu, it was
> >conceived as Macross and "makurosu" is just the
> >katakana for that.
>
> Was the name chosen at random? Did Kawamori and the others toss a bunch of
> random english words into a hat and pick a few at random? No, they decided on
> the name first. And while Macross may be written in Kana, you'll note that
> Chojiu Yosai is right above it in Kanji. It's not even freakin' relivent which
> language they thought up the title first, the point is that it means the same
> damned thing in both, and as such Dimensional stands as a perfectly viable
> translation.
>
> As for english being used at all, it was a United Nations Spacy ship, as such
> it wouldn't make much sense to have everything in Japanese would it?
>
> >Again, Macross II was NOT my example. Someone responding to me
> >gave that as an example. I did not.
>
> Then what IS your example, you've yet to show anything except disputing
> romanizations.
>
I'm not going to go through episode by episode pointing out
continuity errors. The romanizations alone should be enough,
and there are plenty of people in this group who know a
variety of errors. They are an inevitable by-product of a complex
group effort. Just accept them for what they are.
>
> >Everyone in this newsgroup should know tons of things that
> >either don't fit the timeline, don't jive with other concepts in the
> >show, or just don't make sense. That's just the nature of any show
> >of more than a certain degree of complexity.
>
> Unless it has a tight continuity, and you've presented zip to negate that. You
> brought it up, so here's your chance, what are some of these blarring
> continuity errors you're talking about? Aside from inconsistencies in size and
> transformation in the animation, it wasn't the highest budget show to begin
> with.
>
See, you are already starting a list of your own of
errors. Go ahead an continue. Otherwise, I'm not
going to let you bait me into wasting my time on
giving examples. If I do, all you'll do it provide numerous
highly-questionable stretches to patch the holes, and I
don't intend to start that game. Go play with someone
who cares.
>
> >Only internerds. Not real people.
>
> Hate to break it to you, but people on the net are real people, not a bunch of
> military super computers sitting here chatting for your entertainment.
> Insulting doesn't exactly help your argument a ton either. You've yet to bring
> up anything except for romanizations, and that was weeks ago. And again, if you
> don't like people second guessing you, then aside from being very insecure,
> you've got a tuugh road ahead.
No insecurity here, weenie. Since when does the
word "nerd" conjure up visions of military super-
computers? Sounds like you're the one with a tough
road ahead... facing reality.
Keith
>and "dimnsional" are not being used as a translation for
>Jikuu (which, by the way, is a noun), the English title
>for the series is Super Dimension Fortress Macross, not
>"dimensional", and the English title DOES appear on lots
>and lots of official Macross merchandise, from books to
>laser discs to all manner of things. Just because it uses
>kanji in the title on screen in the television series, you
>think that's the only title selected for the show by the
>studio, but it's not. The phrase "super dimension" was
>used in three series titles, a very specific English phrase.
>It's not uncommon for Japanese studios to use specific
>English titles for series in this way. For example, the
>series Aura Battler Dunbine is called Sei Senshi Dunbine
>in Japanese. That's certainly not a translation of the
>Japanese titled. Hmm, but somehow they keep saying
>the words "Aura Battler Dunbine" in the themesong.
>Japanese studios frequently select a specific Japanese
>title and a specific English title for a show. I could give
>you a long list of examples, but I don't see the point.
>If you don't get it, you're just determined not to get it.
>Revisionism doesn't change the title of the show. Fan
>errors don't change the title of the show.
Again, we're talking about proper usage. The term "Dimension" in the tense of
the title isn't proper english. Space time while singular, isn't interchangable
with the word dimension, hence the more often used "dimensional." Much in the
same way many fans refer to Ai Oboete Imasuka as "Do You Remember Love?"
instead of "Love, Do You Remember?" and so forth. While Dimension may have been
how they chose to translate the title, it doesn't stand as proper tense of the
word within the body of the title.
And yes, it is perfectly viable for fans or anyone to translate the title form
Japanese, regardless of an already existing " Super Dimension." Just like it's
viable for Eva fans to call the show Shin Seiki Evangelion instead of Neon
Genesis Evangelion, regardless of whether Anno chose it for the U.S. release or
not.
>If you call a cow's tail a leg, how many legs does it have?
>Five? Wrong. Calling a cow's tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
The error there would be calling the tail a leg in the first place.
CokaCola Cat
tyring to come up with the name of the series, someone spoke up and said,
in in English with a Japanese accent, "Super Dimension....". They then
later translated that into Japanese, into which basically means "Space-
Time". You dig?
The Cat
Keith
>tyring to come up with the name of the series, someone spoke up and said,
>in in English with a Japanese accent, "Super Dimension....". They then
>later translated that into Japanese, into which basically means "Space-
>Time". You dig?
>
>The Cat
No, you seem to be missing the point, were the words spoken at random, or with
a specific meaning in mind? And dimension can be loosely translated as space
time period, so it's not like it's a completely different word. Problem being
that the tense requires the addition of the "al," hence "Dimensional."
~Keith
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Kanashii dekigotoga blue-ni someta kokoromo
Tenshi no enogu de nurikaeruyo
Omoinomamani -Lynn Minmay
~~~
George Edward Purdy
Keith wrote:
> >Again, it is NOT A TRANSLATION. The words "dimension"
> >and "dimnsional" are not being used as a translation for
> >Jikuu (which, by the way, is a noun), the English title
> >for the series is Super Dimension Fortress Macross, not
> >"dimensional", and the English title DOES appear on lots
> >and lots of official Macross merchandise, from books to
> >laser discs to all manner of things. Just because it uses
> >kanji in the title on screen in the television series, you
> >think that's the only title selected for the show by the
> >studio, but it's not. The phrase "super dimension" was
> >used in three series titles, a very specific English phrase.
> >It's not uncommon for Japanese studios to use specific
> >English titles for series in this way. For example, the
> >series Aura Battler Dunbine is called Sei Senshi Dunbine
> >in Japanese. That's certainly not a translation of the
> >Japanese titled. Hmm, but somehow they keep saying
> >the words "Aura Battler Dunbine" in the themesong.
> >Japanese studios frequently select a specific Japanese
> >title and a specific English title for a show. I could give
> >you a long list of examples, but I don't see the point.
> >If you don't get it, you're just determined not to get it.
> >Revisionism doesn't change the title of the show. Fan
> >errors don't change the title of the show.
>
> Again, we're talking about proper usage. The term "Dimension" in the tense of
> the title isn't proper english. Space time while singular, isn't interchangable
> with the word dimension, hence the more often used "dimensional." Much in the
> same way many fans refer to Ai Oboete Imasuka as "Do You Remember Love?"
> instead of "Love, Do You Remember?" and so forth. While Dimension may have been
> how they chose to translate the title, it doesn't stand as proper tense of the
> word within the body of the title.
>
No, the titled "Do You Remember Love?" once again, is the English
title chosen by the Japanese. They come up with English for anime
releases in Japan frequently. The did not translate Jikuu into dimension.
Worse yet, "dimensional" isn't really proper English. It may
sound right to you, but it's not. The only proper use of "dimensional"
would be in reference to the dimensionality of an object. For example,
a three-dimensional object. "Super-dimensional" doesn't mean anything.
In the badly-done English dub of the movie, they came up with an
alternate title (they not being the original creators), which was
Super Space Fortress Macross. Since you don't know the difference
between a noun and an adjective, would you have turned that into
"spatial" as well? The term "space-time" is not interchangeable with
the word "dimension" in English, but it is just as viable for the word
"jikuu" which actually combines the kanji for space and time.
If you have any of the ARII model kits, look for the words (in English)
Do You Remember Love? on them.
H. G. Wells wrote a story entitled The Time Machine. No matter how
many people may some day take it upon themselves to re-title it
"The Temporal Vehicle" or some other such nonsense, it does not
change the FACT that the original title was The Time Machine.
>
> And yes, it is perfectly viable for fans or anyone to translate the title form
> Japanese, regardless of an already existing " Super Dimension." Just like it's
> viable for Eva fans to call the show Shin Seiki Evangelion instead of Neon
> Genesis Evangelion, regardless of whether Anno chose it for the U.S. release or
> not.
>
If they call it a Japanese title, and it's the real Japanese title, then that
is viable. If they try to translate the title and try to tell people that it's
really called New Creation Legend Evangelion, then they are just wrong.
These English-language titles I'm talking about were not chose for the
U. S. release of these shows. They were chosen for the Japanese release.
The overwhelming majority of nihonjin understand English. The sooner
you figure that out, the sooner you will understand this.
>
> >If you call a cow's tail a leg, how many legs does it have?
> >Five? Wrong. Calling a cow's tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
>
> The error there would be calling the tail a leg in the first place.
>
Which is exactly what you're doing.
The fact that you didn't get that from this old Texas saying is
pretty crazy.
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Sure it is. It's not uncommon for a noun to proceed another noun and
act as an adjective. Airship, seaship, spaceship, etc. In fact, if you
called Macross a "Super Dimensional Fortress," that would be more
misleading than calling it a "Super Dimension Fortress." The former, to
me at least, implies only that the ship is really huge (has super
dimensions) while the latter describes the medium through which it
travels (just like Air, sea, and space describes where particular ships
travel).
The only reason why it doesn't seem like proper English is because
there's no real-world, practical case in which the word "dimension"
precedes "fortress."
Space time while singular, isn't interchangable
> with the word dimension, hence the more often used "dimensional." Much in the
> same way many fans refer to Ai Oboete Imasuka as "Do You Remember Love?"
> instead of "Love, Do You Remember?" and so forth.
The reason why "Ai Oboete Imasuka" is translated DYRL instead of L,DYR
is because DYRL is really the better translation. Sure, if you
translated the words word-for-word into English, sure, you'd get L,DYR,
but that doesn't make sense. L,DYR implies that "Love" is the direct
address, and the "speaker" is asking someone named "Love" if he or she
remembers something. Rather, the question being asked is if the person
addressed "remembers love." IIRC, Japanese places all verbs at the end
of a sentence, so the subject, object, and all forms of modifiers have
to precede thge verb. So, DYRL should (and does) take precedence over
L,DYR.
Keith
>act as an adjective. Airship, seaship, spaceship, etc. In fact, if you
>called Macross a "Super Dimensional Fortress," that would be more
>misleading than calling it a "Super Dimension Fortress." The former, to
>me at least, implies only that the ship is really huge (has super
>dimensions) while the latter describes the medium through which it
>travels (just like Air, sea, and space describes where particular ships
>travel).
You prove my point, only problem being that you're the one mis-defining
dimensional to refer to size, the same could be said for dimension, it all
depends on which definition of dimension is being used, in this case the space
time definition. Even with a literal translation of the title, it's still
Super/Ultra Space Time, with the space & time being directly defined as
"Super."
>The only reason why it doesn't seem like proper English is because
>there's no real-world, practical case in which the word "dimension"
>precedes "fortress."
~~~~~~~
di*men*sion [1] (noun)
[Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin dimension-, dimensio, from
dimetiri to measure out, from dis- + metiri to measure -- more at MEASURE]
First appeared 14th Century
1 a (1) : measure in one direction; specifically : one of three coordinates
determining a position in space or four coordinates determining a position in
space and time
~~~~~~~
And an example of the usage of Dimensional as defined by a preceeding word
~~~~~~~
four-dimensional (adjective)
First appeared 1880
: relating to or having four dimensions <~ space-time continuum>; especially :
consisting of or relating to elements requiring four coordinates to determine
them
~~~~~~~
As opposed to
~~~~~~~
fourth dimension (noun)
First appeared 1875
1 : a dimension in addition to length, breadth, and depth; specifically : a
coordinate in addition to three rectangular coordinates esp. when interpreted
as the time coordinate in a space-time continuum
~~~~~~~
Had the title been just "Dimension Fortress," then perhaps Dimension could work
in that form, but being "Super Dimension" requires the additional "al
(dimensional)" since it's being defined by the "Super." both Chojiku &
Dimensional embody the meaning of space/time, difference being that dimensional
is one word, not a combo word. As such, "Super Dimensional" is an acceptable,
and slightly more proper, a title, and anyway you cut it, it still works.
>The reason why "Ai Oboete Imasuka" is translated DYRL instead of L,DYR
>is because DYRL is really the better translation. Sure, if you
>translated the words word-for-word into English, sure, you'd get L,DYR,
>but that doesn't make sense. L,DYR implies that "Love" is the direct
>address, and the "speaker" is asking someone named "Love" if he or she
>remembers something. Rather, the question being asked is if the person
>addressed "remembers love." IIRC, Japanese places all verbs at the end
>of a sentence, so the subject, object, and all forms of modifiers have
>to precede thge verb. So, DYRL should (and does) take precedence over
>L,DYR.
Wasn't saying that Love "should" go first, just that if taken literally, it
would, and for the sake of clearing up the definition of the title, it was
re-arranged.
CokaCola Cat
I think they named it "Super Dimension" becuase they thought it sounded
cool. But, thats just me.
The Cat
In article <19991116124415...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
keit...@aol.com says...
George Edward Purdy
film should be Love, Do You Remember? before, and the
two things wrong with that are (1) Japanese doesn't use
the same grammatical structure as English, so the fact that
"ai" comes first has no bearing, and (2) the Japanese studio
named the film "Do You Remember Love?" as the English-
language title. That was not a title for our market. It wasn't
even released here under that title. It was the English title
for the Japanese market, which understands English for the
most part.
All this debate about whether it is "dimension" or "dimensional"
still comes from the point of view that fans are translating the
Japanese title, which is NOT the case. Super Dimension Fortress
MACROSS is the English title they used in Japan for the series.
You can't go back in time and argue with them on that point.
It's already history. That's the title. You couldn't correct it even
if it was wrong, which it's not.
BTW, Choujikuu isn't a word. It's two words. Chou (super) Jikuu (dimension)
The name doesn't serve to describe the ship's size. The English prefix
"macro-" already does that just fine in Macross. The word "dimension"
was used to suggest the fold capability of the ship.
If you think "dimension ship" would be wrong, again you'd better hop
into a "time machine" and go back and correct H. G. Wells, who set a
precedent for this.
The Macross is a dimension fortress. I'd go so far as to say it's a super
dimension fortress. Even if it wasn't, you still don't have any power to
rewrite history, and ignorance of history is no excuse for making attempts
at revision. I saw Macross in Japanese back before Robotech was even
being made. You can't tell me that the English title was something other
than what the creators named it.
Keith wrote:
--
Windjammer
I think it's interesting that that in the Macross 7 we see a movie poster
that says "Remember Love" as well as the characters of the VF-X Ravens
(Macross VF-X 2) name the final mission (Ending 2), "Remember Love".
Mariafokna Banrose says Remember Love in English and Suzie Newtlet says
"Remember Love" as "ai oboeteimasu ka". I wonder if it is possible that
within the Macross timeline "Remember Love[?]" is the title of the 2031
documentary film and "Do You Remember Love?" is the title for the fans.
--
Windjammer, NMMA
web: www.nmma.fini.net
email: nm...@home.com
George Edward Purdy <slo...@sig.net> wrote in message
news:3831A9D0...@sig.net...
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Keith wrote:
>
> >Sure it is. It's not uncommon for a noun to proceed another noun and
> >act as an adjective. Airship, seaship, spaceship, etc. In fact, if you
> >called Macross a "Super Dimensional Fortress," that would be more
> >misleading than calling it a "Super Dimension Fortress." The former, to
> >me at least, implies only that the ship is really huge (has super
> >dimensions) while the latter describes the medium through which it
> >travels (just like Air, sea, and space describes where particular ships
> >travel).
>
> You prove my point,
How's that? I stated that "Dimension" makes more sense, and I gave
several analogies to boot.
only problem being that you're the one mis-defining
> dimensional to refer to size, the same could be said for dimension, it all
> depends on which definition of dimension is being used, in this case the space
> time definition. Even with a literal translation of the title, it's still
> Super/Ultra Space Time, with the space & time being directly defined as
> "Super."
>
It's also possible that the "Super" modifies the fortress itself, not
the "Dimension" aspect. So, Macross is a "Dimension Fortress," and a
"Super" one at that.
Keith
>film should be Love, Do You Remember? before, and the
>two things wrong with that are (1) Japanese doesn't use
>the same grammatical structure as English, so the fact that
>"ai" comes first has no bearing, and (2) the Japanese studio
>named the film "Do You Remember Love?" as the English-
>language title. That was not a title for our market. It wasn't
>even released here under that title. It was the English title
>for the Japanese market, which understands English for the
>most part.
And if "Love, Do You Remember?" was the title used on merchandise, would that
make it right? No, because that's not the proper tense of the title.
>All this debate about whether it is "dimension" or "dimensional"
>still comes from the point of view that fans are translating the
>Japanese title, which is NOT the case.
Again, I said "both" were viable, which they are, and Dimensional "may" be more
proper in English.
>Super Dimension Fortress
>MACROSS is the English title they used in Japan for the series.
>You can't go back in time and argue with them on that point.
>It's already history. That's the title. You couldn't correct it even
>if it was wrong, which it's not.
Actually, yes you can correct it, you can't go back and change it, but you can
use the correction in future references. And something which you continue to
neglect, is that it does hold the same meaning as the Japanese title, it's not
just a title in English for the sake of being in English, or for the sake of
sounding cool, it does hold the same meaning of space time, difference being
that Dimensional is also a viable interpretation, and works better in the tense
of the title.
>BTW, Choujikuu isn't a word. It's two words. Chou (super) Jikuu (dimension)
And it's often spelled out as one. I most often see it written as Chojiku, so I
more often spell it out as one word. Romanization isn't a perfect science.
>The name doesn't serve to describe the ship's size. The English prefix
>"macro-" already does that just fine in Macross. The word "dimension"
>was used to suggest the fold capability of the ship.
And a hearty "duh," no offense intended, but I did spend time with the previous
post snagging the definition of both dimension and dimensional from Meriam
websters, and both do hold the meaning of space time, they're more often in
english used to define somethings coordinates in space time, but none the less,
the word(s) still can be interpreted as meaning space time.
>If you think "dimension ship" would be wrong, again you'd better hop
>into a "time machine" and go back and correct H. G. Wells, who set a
>precedent for this.
As you pointed out, it's a title used in Japan, be it in english as it may. And
while I hate to bring up the example, Dimensional has been used in 2 cases of
U.S./European english Macross translations. Both Macross II, and the bad DYRL
dub, though that very same dub combined the words Super & Diimensional into
Superdimensional, that's another matter entirely.
>The Macross is a dimension fortress.
I'd go so far as to say it's a super
>dimension fortress.
You are the only one here interpreting Dimensional as its size, a misdefinition
that could be just as easily made with the word dimension. Neither word holds
any specific bearing to size/shape/weight, they're just more often used in
definitions of the afore mentioned. Why? Because all 3 things exist in space
time.
>Even if it wasn't, you still don't have any power to
>rewrite history, and ignorance of history is no excuse for making attempts
>at revision.
Again, did I say Dimension was completely wrong? No, I said Dimensional is just
as viable, and may very well be better used in the tense of the meaning.
>I saw Macross in Japanese back before Robotech was even
>being made. You can't tell me that the English title was something other
>than what the creators named it.
And you can't tell me that Dimensional, a word which is nothing more than a
slight variation on the same word, is not viable, when it very well is.
Especially in the face of multiple character name romanizations. The point here
isn't how the title was spelled out, it's the meaning of the title, and
Dimensional just as well if not slighlty better specifies the meaning, because
it's defined by the Super. Though technically fans could run around calling it
the super space time fortress, and it wouldn't matter either.
Keith
>the "Dimension" aspect. So, Macross is a "Dimension Fortress," and a
>"Super" one at that.
>--
>*****
>Jeffrey T. Jhee
Given that Super Dimension was used as a general tagline for Orguss & Southern
Cross as well, it's doubtful that the Super was intended to go after Dimension.
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Keith wrote:
>
> >It's also possible that the "Super" modifies the fortress itself, not
> >the "Dimension" aspect. So, Macross is a "Dimension Fortress," and a
> >"Super" one at that.
> >--
> >*****
> >Jeffrey T. Jhee
>
> Given that Super Dimension was used as a general tagline for Orguss & Southern
> Cross as well, it's doubtful that the Super was intended to go after Dimension.
>
> ~Keith
>
If StarCraft and the Alien Trilogy can have "Space Marines (as opposed
to "Spatial")," Van Damme can be a "Time Cop (as opposed to
"Temporal")," then I don't see anything grammatically wrong with
Southern Cross' having a "Dimension Cavalry." In that case, the "Super"
could still act as a modifier for "Cavalry," just as it could for
"Fortress."
As far as Orguss is concerned, I never really gave much thought about
having either a "Dimensional Century," or a "Dimension Century."
Whether century refers to 100 years, or a Roman legion of 100 or so men,
I don't know, as I haven't seen it. If it refers to something similar
to the latter definition, then I would probably stick with "Dimension
Century," for reasons similar to the one stated in the previous
paragraph and my earlier post.
As far as Macross concerned, according to the Macross Compendium, the
proper English translation of the title is "The Super Dimension Fortress
Macross." Reading those five words outloud, and considering what occurs
in the show, I am convinced that the noun in the title that is "super"
is most likely the fortress, not the dimension or dimensions. I have no
idea what to think about Orguss or SC, since I haven't watched them, but
I'm inclined to think that the writers wanted to describe the Cavalry
and Century as "super," and not the "dimension."
We could argue which English translated title would be most appropriate
for Macross, Orguss, or Southern Cross, and honestly, I think it's quite
interesting. However, it's probably best to put faith in the English
skills of the company(ies) who produced these series, and assume that
their given translations are the ones they feel are most accurate and
most appropriate for the content of the series, especially when there
are no glaring gaffes in their grammar.
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Keith
>for Macross, Orguss, or Southern Cross, and honestly, I think it's quite
>interesting. However, it's probably best to put faith in the English
>skills of the company(ies) who produced these series, and assume that
>their given translations are the ones they feel are most accurate and
>most appropriate for the content of the series, especially when there
>are no glaring gaffes in their grammar.
>
>--
>*****
>Jeffrey T. Jhee
The real issue isn't even which is more proper in English, though that is an
issue none the less. My point is that Dimensional is just as viable, which it
is.
CokaCola Cat
newsgroup.
Its doesn't mater what you, me, or whoever else thinks about what Macross
should be called. It is well documented that Studio Nue and whoever else
who developed and worked on the series gave it the name "The Super
Dimension Fortress Macross".
What you are all arguing is what is the meaning of the name, translated
from ITS ORIGINAL ENGLISH TITLE, into Japanese, and then back into
English. This is all so silly, I mean, christ almighty.
The Cat
In article <19991118012711...@ng-fq1.aol.com>,
keit...@aol.com says...
George Edward Purdy
Keith wrote:
>
> And if "Love, Do You Remember?" was the title used on merchandise, would that
> make it right? No, because that's not the proper tense of the title.
>
It seems to me that you don't speak or understand Nihongo.
Correct me if I am wrong on this.
>
> >All this debate about whether it is "dimension" or "dimensional"
> >still comes from the point of view that fans are translating the
> >Japanese title, which is NOT the case.
>
> Again, I said "both" were viable, which they are, and Dimensional "may" be more
> proper in English.
>
They are not both viable. Only the title selected in Japan is the title
of the series. Any efforts since then at translating the Nihongo title
into English does not change that. The title is the title.
>
> >Super Dimension Fortress
> >MACROSS is the English title they used in Japan for the series.
> >You can't go back in time and argue with them on that point.
> >It's already history. That's the title. You couldn't correct it even
> >if it was wrong, which it's not.
>
> Actually, yes you can correct it, you can't go back and change it, but you can
> use the correction in future references. And something which you continue to
> neglect, is that it does hold the same meaning as the Japanese title, it's not
> just a title in English for the sake of being in English, or for the sake of
> sounding cool, it does hold the same meaning of space time, difference being
> that Dimensional is also a viable interpretation, and works better in the tense
> of the title.
>
Once again, think of it as a title conceived in English and translated
into Japanese. They chose the title. You can't correct it any more than
you can turn "The Time Machine" by H. G. Wells into "The Temporal Machine"
because he did not give it that title.
>
> >BTW, Choujikuu isn't a word. It's two words. Chou (super) Jikuu (dimension)
>
> And it's often spelled out as one. I most often see it written as Chojiku, so I
> more often spell it out as one word. Romanization isn't a perfect science.
>
Actually, there are rule to romanization and many people break those rules.
This will change as more people learn these rules.
>
> >The name doesn't serve to describe the ship's size. The English prefix
> >"macro-" already does that just fine in Macross. The word "dimension"
> >was used to suggest the fold capability of the ship.
>
> And a hearty "duh," no offense intended, but I did spend time with the previous
> post snagging the definition of both dimension and dimensional from Meriam
> websters, and both do hold the meaning of space time, they're more often in
> english used to define somethings coordinates in space time, but none the less,
> the word(s) still can be interpreted as meaning space time.
>
Dimensional doesn't mean space-time. Dimensional isn't a noun. Space-time is a
noun.
>
> >If you think "dimension ship" would be wrong, again you'd better hop
> >into a "time machine" and go back and correct H. G. Wells, who set a
> >precedent for this.
>
> As you pointed out, it's a title used in Japan, be it in english as it may. And
> while I hate to bring up the example, Dimensional has been used in 2 cases of
> U.S./European english Macross translations. Both Macross II, and the bad DYRL
> dub, though that very same dub combined the words Super & Diimensional into
> Superdimensional, that's another matter entirely.
>
Neither one of those dubs was done by the original creators.
Both of them were released by people who tried to "correct" much
like you are trying to.
>
> >The Macross is a dimension fortress.
> I'd go so far as to say it's a super
> >dimension fortress.
>
> You are the only one here interpreting Dimensional as its size, a misdefinition
> that could be just as easily made with the word dimension. Neither word holds
> any specific bearing to size/shape/weight, they're just more often used in
> definitions of the afore mentioned. Why? Because all 3 things exist in space
> time.
>
I was not the one who indicated that dimensional was a reference to the
size of the ship. You'd better go back and check the previous posts.
>
> >Even if it wasn't, you still don't have any power to
> >rewrite history, and ignorance of history is no excuse for making attempts
> >at revision.
>
> Again, did I say Dimension was completely wrong? No, I said Dimensional is just
> as viable, and may very well be better used in the tense of the meaning.
>
Whether you think it's viable or not, it is NOT the title of the show.
You never addressed my use of Dunbine as an example. How would you
translate Sei Senshi Danbain? Would you call it "Star Warrior Dunbine"
because that's what the kanji means? In Japan the title was conceived
IN ENGLISH. It's Aura Battler Dunbine. They don't write it that way in the
title logo, but they say it over and over and over IN ENGLISH in the
theme song. That's typical of Japanese shows. They conceive titles in
English and translate them into Japanese. You can't change that.
You can't tell me that the title Star Warrior Dunbine is a viable alternative
to Aura Battler Dunbine, because IT'S NOT THE TITLE.
Is "The Story of a Pair of Villages" a viable alternate title to
"A Tale of Two Cities"? Whether you think so or not, it's not the title
chosen by the author. If you call it that, you're a revisionist, which is
effectively a liar.
>
> >I saw Macross in Japanese back before Robotech was even
> >being made. You can't tell me that the English title was something other
> >than what the creators named it.
>
> And you can't tell me that Dimensional, a word which is nothing more than a
> slight variation on the same word, is not viable, when it very well is.
> Especially in the face of multiple character name romanizations. The point here
> isn't how the title was spelled out, it's the meaning of the title, and
> Dimensional just as well if not slighlty better specifies the meaning, because
> it's defined by the Super. Though technically fans could run around calling it
> the super space time fortress, and it wouldn't matter either.
I don't care what fans call it. They didn't write it. They didn't author the
series.
They didn't name it. The original writers named the show. They named it
Super Dimension Fortress Macross in English, Chou JiKuu Yousai Makurosu in
Japanese. Subsequent series Super Dimension Century Orguss and Super
Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross shared the Super Dimension trademark,
probably because, as Cat suggested, it sounded cool. They conceive English
names for these shows, and they don't always correspond to the Japanese
title. Sometimes they do. Either way, it is their right to title the series any
way they like. Whether you agree with their English usage, the title is still
the title. Even if a dubbed release re-titles the show, that doesn't change
the title of the original show. Battle Athletess was changed to Battle Athletes,
probably because the American studio didn't expect our audience to
appreciate the way Nihonjin play with spellings and usage. Judging by your
attempts at revision, they are correct. You just can't seem to cope with the
fact that Japanese use English differently that Americans do.
If you like, I can give a rather large number of examples of this tendency,
especially in the descriptive headers of anime series.
Another example:
番組名 Japanese Title:
機甲創世�shy;モスピーダ
Romaji Title:
KiKou SoYoKi Mosupiida
Translated:
armored (like a tank) creation story (world/society/era+origin+chronicle) Mospeada
Studio-selected English Title:
Genesis Climber Mospeada
The title screen shows kanji for the header, and both katakana and English for
the main word of the title. However, you will see a totally English title in
commercial
breaks and other places. They chose the title Genesis Climber Mospeada. You may
not agree with that "translation" either, but they already named it. You're not on
the committee at the studio. You don't get a vote. Way too late for that.
If you can read Japanese and have a browser capable of displaying it, go
to http://www.sig.net/~slogan/anime/ and try to translate the descriptive
part of the titles into English, then I'll tell you what some of those were in
English as conceived by the Japanese. You may not agree with them, but
the title that they chose is the official title. Period.
George Edward Purdy
they want in whatever language, and the popularity if giving
anime shows in Japan an English name for the Japanese
audience is very well documented.
Sometimes they use Japanese-only titles that don't really
completely translate into English, like Hokuto no Ken or
Urusei Yatsura, and other times they conceive of a title in
English and Japanese. Either way, it's official. Anyone calling
those series something else is just wrong.
Equally (and oddly) wrong is the reverse. There are Robotech
fans who call the second part of Robotech "Southern Cross"
instead of Harmony Gold's selected title, "Robotech Masters".
Trust me, people. Robotech Masters isn't Southern Cross.
90%+ of the animation in Robotech Masters comes from
Southern Cross, but HG slaughtered the story and changed
the names of most of the characters. The two series are not
independent or separate, but they are not the same show.
The similarities between Mospeada and Robotech: The New
Generation are greater than with the Southern Cross dub,
but it's still pretty heavily altered, and in some pretty stupid
ways.
CokaCola Cat wrote:
--
Keith
>fans who call the second part of Robotech "Southern Cross"
>instead of Harmony Gold's selected title, "Robotech Masters".
>Trust me, people. Robotech Masters isn't Southern Cross.
>90%+ of the animation in Robotech Masters comes from
>Southern Cross, but HG slaughtered the story and changed
>the names of most of the characters. The two series are not
>independent or separate, but they are not the same show.
>The similarities between Mospeada and Robotech: The New
>Generation are greater than with the Southern Cross dub,
>but it's still pretty heavily altered, and in some pretty stupid
>ways.
This is a Macross board, do you really think you need to explain how harmony
gold chopped everything up?
>
>> And if "Love, Do You Remember?" was the title used on merchandise, would
>that
>> make it right? No, because that's not the proper tense of the title.
>>
>
>It seems to me that you don't speak or understand Nihongo.
>Correct me if I am wrong on this.
Again, back to the question, if it were written out in English as "Love, Do You
Remember" on the merchandise, would that make that title right? Despite the
actual meaning of "Do You Remember Love?"
>They are not both viable. Only the title selected in Japan is the title
>of the series. Any efforts since then at translating the Nihongo title
>into English does not change that. The title is the title.
It is a viable title. Case in point, in Evangelion, the term "Complemtation"
was derived from a book in English which used the term "Instrumentality," but
once translated from Japanese back into English came back out as
"Complementation." For the dub of Eva, it was translated yet again back to
Instrumentality, despite HCP (Human Complementation Project) being written out
in English on documents within the animation. Both stand as viable (and both
supported by Anno), since they hold relatively the same meaning in the tense
that they're used. Both words are Englsih, and both are viable, though
Instrumentality is usually held as more viable, since it's the specifically
originally intended word, despite initially being mis-translated as
Complementation and used in the animation.
Of course in the very same series, Shito is clearly the originally chosen term,
though in the animation, Angel is used, and again it's a case of 2 words
holding relatively the same meaning (of messanger) both being supported.
>Once again, think of it as a title conceived in English and translated
>into Japanese. They chose the title. You can't correct it any more than
>you can turn "The Time Machine" by H. G. Wells into "The Temporal Machine"
>because he did not give it that title.
The two instances are completely different. Had H.G. Wells translated his own
book into Japanese, using a word which held a specific difference between time
& temporal, with an alternative being available, then it would be justified
using the alternate word which holds the closer relation specifically to "time"
and still held the full meaning of the title "The Time Machine."
>Actually, there are rule to romanization and many people break those rules.
>This will change as more people learn these rules.
I didn't say there weren't rules, I said it wasn't a perfect science, which
it's not. It's still open to a degree of interpretation.
>Dimensional doesn't mean space-time. Dimensional isn't a noun. Space-time is
>a
>noun.
All the more reason to use Dimensional, since the title alone isn't Space-Time.
It's a Space-Time Fortress (which alone justifies the use of an adjective).
ad*jec*tive [1] (adjective)
[Middle English, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French adjectif,
from Late Latin adjectivus, from Latin adjectus, past participle of adjicere
to throw to, from ad- + jacere to throw -- more at JET]
First appeared 14th Century
1 : of, relating to, or functioning as an adjective <an ~ clause>
2 : not standing by itself : DEPENDENT
>Neither one of those dubs was done by the original creators.
>Both of them were released by people who tried to "correct" much
>like you are trying to.
Which still doesn't make the correction wrong. If anything, it sets precedent
for the necessity.
>I was not the one who indicated that dimensional was a reference to the
>size of the ship. You'd better go back and check the previous posts.
The point stands regardless, Dimensional still holds the same relative meaning
as Dimension, and does not significantly change the title.
>Whether you think it's viable or not, it is NOT the title of the show.
>You never addressed my use of Dunbine as an example. How would you
>translate Sei Senshi Danbain? Would you call it "Star Warrior Dunbine"
>because that's what the kanji means? In Japan the title was conceived
>IN ENGLISH. It's Aura Battler Dunbine. They don't write it that way in the
>title logo, but they say it over and over and over IN ENGLISH in the
>theme song. That's typical of Japanese shows. They conceive titles in
>English and translate them into Japanese. You can't change that.
>You can't tell me that the title Star Warrior Dunbine is a viable alternative
>to Aura Battler Dunbine, because IT'S NOT THE TITLE.
Well, I also hate to break it to you, but English is often not a fluent
language in Japan, though it's certainly more prevelent than Japanese is here.
And yes, Star Warrior Dunbine most certainly would be a viable alternative,
because that's the more specific meaning of the title in Japanese.
>Is "The Story of a Pair of Villages" a viable alternate title to
>"A Tale of Two Cities"?
I'm sure such a translation has been made while translating the book into
various languages, though village in general doesn't hold close enough meaning
to city.
>Whether you think so or not, it's not the title
>chosen by the author. If you call it that, you're a revisionist, which is
>effectively a liar.
And people call me anal.... Though you do know "revision" and "liar" do "NOT"
hold the same meaning don't you? And all an alternate English title chosen by
the auther means is that there is a "second" viable title available. Ignoring
the specific meaning of the original title in its original language, and
calling those that don't "liars" is too idiotic for words. Whether you prefer
to use "Dimension" is your business, the point being that "Dimensional" is
equally viable a title, has more than its share of precedent for use, hasn't
been condemned by Kawamori, and is widely accepted.
>I don't care what fans call it. They didn't write it. They didn't author the
>series.
>They didn't name it. The original writers named the show. They named it
>Super Dimension Fortress Macross in English, Chou JiKuu Yousai Makurosu in
>Japanese.
Makurosu is only it's pronounciation, in both English & Japanese, the ship is
recognized as Macross, the word being derived from Macro, regardless of how
it's spelled out in Japanese.
>Subsequent series Super Dimension Century Orguss and Super
>Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross shared the Super Dimension trademark,
>probably because, as Cat suggested, it sounded cool.
Actually (anyone correct me on this if I'm wrong), the "Super Dimension" was
concieved before all 3 series, since all 3 were rotated in an anthology
timeslot/block.
>They conceive English
>names for these shows, and they don't always correspond to the Japanese
>title. Sometimes they do. Either way, it is their right to title the series
>any
>way they like.
And believe it or not, they're also human, and as such are capable of making
mistakes.
>Whether you agree with their English usage, the title is still
>the title. Even if a dubbed release re-titles the show, that doesn't change
>the title of the original show.
And making up an alternate English title of a show to complement a Japanese
title, or vice versa, doesn't change the meaning of the original title, or does
it make that title or its meaning go away.
>Battle Athletess was changed to Battle
>Athletes,
>probably because the American studio didn't expect our audience to
>appreciate the way Nihonjin play with spellings and usage. Judging by your
>attempts at revision, they are correct. You just can't seem to cope with the
>fact that Japanese use English differently that Americans do.
A word play is an entirely different situation, and as such, not comparable.
And yes, even native Englsh speakers use English word play.
>If you like, I can give a rather large number of examples of this tendency,
>especially in the descriptive headers of anime series.
>
>Another example:
>
>番組名 Japanese Title:
>機甲創世�shy;モスピーダ
>
>Romaji Title:
>KiKou SoYoKi Mosupiida
>
>Translated:
>armored (like a tank) creation story (world/society/era+origin+chronicle)
>Mospeada
>
>Studio-selected English Title:
>Genesis Climber Mospeada
>
>The title screen shows kanji for the header, and both katakana and English
>for
>the main word of the title. However, you will see a totally English title in
>commercial
>breaks and other places. They chose the title Genesis Climber Mospeada. You
>may
>not agree with that "translation" either, but they already named it. You're
>not on
>the committee at the studio. You don't get a vote. Way too late for that.
Again, does that change the original meaning of the Japanese title? No. Does
that mean people can't call it by the original Japanese title? No. Does that
mean people can't translate the meaning of the original Japanese title? No. All
it means is that 2 versions of the title were chosen, and for whatever reason
an alternate meaning was used in the English version. That does not mean that
people who speak Englsih aren't allowed to acknowledge the original meaning of
the title in Japanese.
>If you can read Japanese and have a browser capable of displaying it, go
>to http://www.sig.net/~slogan/anime/ and try to translate the descriptive
>part of the titles into English, then I'll tell you what some of those were
>in
>English as conceived by the Japanese. You may not agree with them, but
>the title that they chose is the official title. Period.
The major failing in your argument being, that the original meanings of the
titles in Japanese are "ALSO" the official tiltle. As such, translating those
meanings literaly (or literally to their specified meanings) IS viable.
CokaCola Cat
Macross" anymore, that is what they named the show, whether it is proper
English or not. Its simple fact.
Second, looking at Neon Genesis Evangelion....now, I don't really know
much about Latin, but I understand that the title roughly translates to
"New Genesis Gospel". That said, I don't know if that is truely the
correct spelling or useage of those words (Gospel is actually
"evangelium")as the Japanese spelled it. But, that is what they titled
that show. Same as Macross. That is what they titled it, so deal.
The Cat
In article <19991118191734...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
keit...@aol.com says...
O.D.
Anyhoo, I agree with the CokaCola Cat (Fmr. God of Mars)
what is...is
^_^
"CokaCola Cat" <ple...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.129ec3817...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> Ok, first off, you can't argue the name of "The Super Dimension Fortress
> Macross" anymore, that is what they named the show, whether it is proper
> English or not. Its simple fact.
>
> Second, looking at Neon Genesis Evangelion....now, I don't really know
> much about Latin, but I understand that the title roughly translates to
> "New Genesis Gospel". That said, I don't know if that is truely the
> correct spelling or useage of those words (Gospel is actually
> "evangelium")as the Japanese spelled it. But, that is what they titled
> that show. Same as Macross. That is what they titled it, so deal.
>
> The Cat
>
> In article <19991118191734...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
> keit...@aol.com says...
George Edward Purdy
Keith wrote:
This is a Macross board, do you really think you need to explain how harmony
gold chopped everything up?
Well, since I wrote the entirety of a web site devoted to the subject,
and since
I've received so much ignorant e-mail on the subject, YES. Apparently
I do need
to explain that.
>It seems to me that you don't speak or understand Nihongo.
>Correct me if I am wrong on this.Again, back to the question, if it were written out in English as "Love, Do You
Remember" on the merchandise, would that make that title right? Despite the
actual meaning of "Do You Remember Love?"
Dodging the question, eh? Do you understand any Japanese at all or not?
If so, how much?
Do You Remember Love? makes sense as the title. It is written as the
English
title by the Japanese company. It's the title. Maybe I'll make a dub
with a different
title, but that still won't change the historical fact that the English
language title
was "Do You Remember Love?"
Do you deny that they chose that as the original English language title in Japan?
>They are not both viable. Only the title selected in Japan is the title
>of the series. Any efforts since then at translating the Nihongo title
>into English does not change that. The title is the title.It is a viable title. Case in point, in Evangelion, the term "Complemtation"
was derived from a book in English which used the term "Instrumentality," but
once translated from Japanese back into English came back out as
"Complementation." For the dub of Eva, it was translated yet again back to
Instrumentality, despite HCP (Human Complementation Project) being written out
in English on documents within the animation. Both stand as viable (and both
supported by Anno), since they hold relatively the same meaning in the tense
that they're used. Both words are Englsih, and both are viable, though
Instrumentality is usually held as more viable, since it's the specifically
originally intended word, despite initially being mis-translated as
Complementation and used in the animation.
Your example is flawed in several ways. 1. That wasn't part of the title,
while
"dimension" was in this case, 2. It was the use of a non-existent English
word,
while their use of "dimension" is perfectly fine the way it is, and
3. Your
example involves a mis-translation, while "dimension" was not a translation,
but instead was a perfectly functional usage of an English word.
>Once again, think of it as a title conceived in English and translated
>into Japanese. They chose the title. You can't correct it any more than
>you can turn "The Time Machine" by H. G. Wells into "The Temporal Machine"
>because he did not give it that title.The two instances are completely different. Had H.G. Wells translated his own
book into Japanese, using a word which held a specific difference between time
& temporal, with an alternative being available, then it would be justified
using the alternate word which holds the closer relation specifically to "time"
and still held the full meaning of the title "The Time Machine."
No, I am asking you if you would change his chosen English title (not translated
from any other language) into something else in English, which is exactly
what
you are doing with Macross.
>Dimensional doesn't mean space-time. Dimensional isn't a noun. Space-time is
>a
>noun.All the more reason to use Dimensional, since the title alone isn't Space-Time.
It's a Space-Time Fortress (which alone justifies the use of an adjective).
How was the noun "time" used in the title "The Time Machine" by H. G. Wells?
If you can't see that "dimension" can be used in the same way...
>Neither one of those dubs was done by the original creators.
>Both of them were released by people who tried to "correct" much
>like you are trying to.Which still doesn't make the correction wrong. If anything, it sets precedent
for the necessity.
No, it simply provides another example to support the stereotype
of the arrogance and stupidity of gaijin.
>I was not the one who indicated that dimensional was a reference to the
>size of the ship. You'd better go back and check the previous posts.The point stands regardless, Dimensional still holds the same relative meaning
as Dimension, and does not significantly change the title.
It changes it from the actual title to an alternate title that wasn't the
title of the show.
>Whether you think it's viable or not, it is NOT the title of the show.
>You never addressed my use of Dunbine as an example. How would you
>translate Sei Senshi Danbain? Would you call it "Star Warrior Dunbine"
>because that's what the kanji means? In Japan the title was conceived
>IN ENGLISH. It's Aura Battler Dunbine. They don't write it that way in the
>title logo, but they say it over and over and over IN ENGLISH in the
>theme song. That's typical of Japanese shows. They conceive titles in
>English and translate them into Japanese. You can't change that.
>You can't tell me that the title Star Warrior Dunbine is a viable alternative
>to Aura Battler Dunbine, because IT'S NOT THE TITLE.Well, I also hate to break it to you, but English is often not a fluent
language in Japan, though it's certainly more prevelent than Japanese is here.
And yes, Star Warrior Dunbine most certainly would be a viable alternative,
because that's the more specific meaning of the title in Japanese.
Except that the title was not written in Japanese and no one calls it that,
not to mention that the English term "aura battler", which they created
for the
show, is used throughout the series and is sung in the themesong in
English.
>Is "The Story of a Pair of Villages" a viable alternate title to
>"A Tale of Two Cities"?I'm sure such a translation has been made while translating the book into
various languages, though village in general doesn't hold close enough meaning
to city.
Again, I'm asking why you want to translate something from English to English.
>Whether you think so or not, it's not the title
>chosen by the author. If you call it that, you're a revisionist, which is
>effectively a liar.And people call me anal.... Though you do know "revision" and "liar" do "NOT"
Revisionist, not "revision", as in someone who wants to edit history.
If something happens and you tell someone that something else happened,
I'd call that lying.
Do you deny that the original title of the show was Super Dimension
Fortress Macross?
Do you consider Ultra Space-Time Fortress Macross to be a viable title?
If you do, then
what does the SDF-1 on the captain's coffee mug stand for in the show?
hold the same meaning don't you? And all an alternate English title chosen by
the auther means is that there is a "second" viable title available. Ignoring
the specific meaning of the original title in its original language, and
calling those that don't "liars" is too idiotic for words. Whether you prefer
to use "Dimension" is your business, the point being that "Dimensional" is
equally viable a title, has more than its share of precedent for use, hasn't
been condemned by Kawamori, and is widely accepted.
Interesting assumptions.
>I don't care what fans call it. They didn't write it. They didn't author the
>series.
>They didn't name it. The original writers named the show. They named it
>Super Dimension Fortress Macross in English, Chou JiKuu Yousai Makurosu in
>Japanese.Makurosu is only it's pronounciation, in both English & Japanese, the ship is
recognized as Macross, the word being derived from Macro, regardless of how
it's spelled out in Japanese.
DUH.
You're missing my point and making it for me.
>Subsequent series Super Dimension Century Orguss and Super
>Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross shared the Super Dimension trademark,
>probably because, as Cat suggested, it sounded cool.Actually (anyone correct me on this if I'm wrong), the "Super Dimension" was
concieved before all 3 series, since all 3 were rotated in an anthology
timeslot/block.
They were not. I don't know what gave you that impression.
Macross aired from 10/3/82 to 6/26/83 in Japan.
Orguss took over the Macross timeslot on 7/3/83.
Southern Cross aired from 4/15/84 to 9/30/84.
The animation studios sort of "own" timeslots, and they make the
decisions about what to do with those timeslots based on ratings,
just as our networks would, except here when a show is cancelled
the studio that made the show isn't assured of getting their next
show on the air.
>They conceive English
>names for these shows, and they don't always correspond to the Japanese
>title. Sometimes they do. Either way, it is their right to title the series
>any
>way they like.And believe it or not, they're also human, and as such are capable of making
mistakes.
Of course they are, but if they give a show the title "Angle Rape Nexus"
then
that's the title, whether it makes sense to you or not. Even if the
Japanese title
could potentially be translated into a different English title that
might make
more sense to you, that doesn't change their title. You might be able
to get the
rights to the show and do a dub with a different English title that
makes more
sense to you, but that doesn't change history.
>Whether you agree with their English usage, the title is still
>the title. Even if a dubbed release re-titles the show, that doesn't change
>the title of the original show.And making up an alternate English title of a show to complement a Japanese
title, or vice versa, doesn't change the meaning of the original title, or does
it make that title or its meaning go away.
The English title IS the original title.
>Battle Athletess was changed to Battle
>Athletes,
>probably because the American studio didn't expect our audience to
>appreciate the way Nihonjin play with spellings and usage. Judging by your
>attempts at revision, they are correct. You just can't seem to cope with the
>fact that Japanese use English differently that Americans do.A word play is an entirely different situation, and as such, not comparable.
And yes, even native Englsh speakers use English word play.
DUH.
Again, does that change the original meaning of the Japanese title? No. Does
You mean the original English title.
that mean people can't call it by the original Japanese title? No. Does that
mean people can't translate the meaning of the original Japanese title? No. All
it means is that 2 versions of the title were chosen, and for whatever reason
an alternate meaning was used in the English version. That does not mean that
people who speak Englsih aren't allowed to acknowledge the original meaning of
the title in Japanese.
You've said yourself that changing dimension to dimensional doesn't change
the
meaning. What's the point of it then? You can write alternate translations
of the
Japanese title all you want, but it doesn't change the English title.
>If you can read Japanese and have a browser capable of displaying it, go
>to http://www.sig.net/~slogan/anime/ and try to translate the descriptive
>part of the titles into English, then I'll tell you what some of those were
>in
>English as conceived by the Japanese. You may not agree with them, but
>the title that they chose is the official title. Period.The major failing in your argument being, that the original meanings of the
titles in Japanese are "ALSO" the official tiltle. As such, translating those
meanings literaly (or literally to their specified meanings) IS viable.
How are you using the word "viable" in this context?
By the way, if you want some more info on anime robot
shows, check out this site:
http://www.yk.rim.or.jp/~akira_t/rbdble/
You may find some more English language titles to translate into English there. :)
CokaCola Cat
*thwaps him on the head with his mighty wooden mallet for calling the
other guy a gai-jin, trying to make himself sound cool* NO SOUP FOR YOU!
The Cat
"Hey man, I gots to know"
In article <3838B8F7...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
Keith
>since
>I've received so much ignorant e-mail on the subject, YES. Apparently I do
>need
>to explain that.
Difference being that much of that e-mail is probably from Robotech fans, while
this is a Macross specific board.
>Dodging the question, eh? Do you understand any Japanese at all or not?
>If so, how much?
Nope, since the question isn't relivent to the topic (nor have you yet address
my question, which makes your question of me dodging all that much more
strange). The answer of course being no. The question however being, if it were
written out on merchandise as "Love, Do You Remember?" would that then make
that title the proper english tittle, despite the sentence structure of that
(in english) not equating the proper meaning of the title?
>Do You Remember Love? makes sense as the title.
Again, that wasn't in dispute.
>It is written as the English
>title by the Japanese company.
That is not the only reason, nor the main reason why.
>It's the title. Maybe I'll make a dub with a
>different
>title, but that still won't change the historical fact that the English
>language
>title
>was "Do You Remember Love?"
Again, not the question posed. If they were to have (in English) written it out
as "Love, Do You Remember?" would that make it correct?
>Do you deny that they chose that as the original English language title in
>Japan?
Do you deny that I have not put that in dispute?
>Your example is flawed in several ways. 1. That wasn't part of the title,
>while
>"dimension" was in this case,
It's irrelivent whether it was part of the title, it was a term used for a
specific purpose within the story, which gives it much higher importance than a
title.
2. It was the use of a non-existent English
>word,
>while their use of "dimension" is perfectly fine the way it is, and 3.
No, both Instrumentality & Complementation are english words. It was the usage
of instrumentality that was specifically derived from a book (in English)
translated into Japanese.
Your
>example involves a mis-translation, while "dimension" was not a translation,
>but instead was a perfectly functional usage of an English word.
Can you honestly say (that even being chosen for the title in English
initially) Dimension was chosen without the Japanese equivilent word(s) holding
the meaning "space-time" in mind? Complementation is a perfectly functional use
of an english word holding a close to if not exact meaning of Instrumentality,
but that does not make it the same word.
>No, I am asking you if you would change his chosen English title (not
>translated
>from any other language) into something else in English, which is exactly
>what
>you are doing with Macross.
A title chosen by people not necessarily totally fluent in english and all its
nuances (though being such a screwy language, it's hard for anyone to be).
Which is why I brought up the counter example of H.G. Wells giving a name to
his book in another language that he wasn't very versed in, trying to give it a
simular meaning, but not necessarily knowing enough about the other language to
pull it off. Would they be justified in referring to said title in a more exact
approximation of its meaning in English?
While yes, there is artistic license to change the title, when the same title
is being shot for in both languages, and an altered meaning is accidentally
acheived instead, then you can no longer cry artistic license.
>How was the noun "time" used in the title "The Time Machine" by H. G. Wells?
>If you can't see that "dimension" can be used in the same way...
>http://cypher.system.to/
The "time machine" refers to a machine capable of traveling through time, with
the "traveling through" part implied. The operative point being that it's
capable of "time travel." Using diimension in the same tense however, you
would not say "dimension" travel, you'd say "dimensional" travel.
"Dimensional" is spawned from the root "dimension." And while "temporal" can be
used to reference time, it is not specifically derived from the word time, as
such they're not as easily interchangable. Furthermore, time can be used in
both tenses, while "dimension" can not, hence why we have "dimensional."
>No, it simply provides another example to support the stereotype
>of the arrogance and stupidity of gaijin.
Nope, as before stated, the ways that the word time, and the word dimension can
be used are not equal.
>It changes it from the actual title to an alternate title that wasn't the
>title of the show.
It changes it to hold a truer meaning of the title, while not significantly
changing the title at the same time.
>Except that the title was not written in Japanese and no one calls it that,
>not to mention that the English term "aura battler", which they created for
>the
>show, is used throughout the series and is sung in the themesong in English.
If you're going by usage, then all the more reason to use to not use dimension
(though that is not my argument, only that dimensional is equally viable),
since dimension was nowhere in the title sequence or the show, and only used on
merchandise. Used on merchendise at the same time as the Japanese title.
>Again, I'm asking why you want to translate something from English to
>English.
NOT English to English, English to "proper" English.
>Revisionist, not "revision", as in someone who wants to edit history.
Who's trying to edit history? Did I say Dimension was never used? No. Therefore
you can not claim that I'm trying to revise (or edit) history. Nor can you call
me a liar. Though I can't help but think that this focus on the title is a
smoke screen for your earlier claims of the big gaping holes in the Macross
continuity that you never did get around to specifying on.
>If something happens and you tell someone that something else happened,
>I'd call that lying.
Specific instance of that happening here being?
>Do you deny that the original title of the show was Super Dimension Fortress
>Macross?
Never made any such claims, only that "Dimension" is an inproper use within the
text of the title, and should have been "Dimensional." And that using
"dimensional" is viable. Mistakes happen, like the word "crushed" instead of
"crashed" appearing in the simulator in Macross Plus. And the animators
neglecting to write "Isamu" backwards when it reflected off of Yangs screen to
his glasses.
>Do you consider Ultra Space-Time Fortress Macross to be a viable title? If
>you do,
>then
>what does the SDF-1 on the captain's coffee mug stand for in the show?
Interesting point, however the argument can't be used with Dimensional, since
it's derived from the root Dimension.
>DUH.
>
>You're missing my point and making it for me.
Nope, the example is not interchangable. "Macross" is the proper name for the
ship. Its classification of SDF is for descriptive meaning of what the ship is.
An error of tense was made there (using Dimension instead of Dimensional). The
specification between "dimension and dimensional" exists for the same reason as
the specification between "dimension and dimensions."
>They were not. I don't know what gave you that impression.
>
>Macross aired from 10/3/82 to 6/26/83 in Japan.
>
>Orguss took over the Macross timeslot on 7/3/83.
>
>Southern Cross aired from 4/15/84 to 9/30/84.
>
>The animation studios sort of "own" timeslots, and they make the
>decisions about what to do with those timeslots based on ratings,
>just as our networks would, except here when a show is cancelled
>the studio that made the show isn't assured of getting their next
>show on the air.
Regardless, the title sharing does imply a connection specifically between the
two words Super & Dimension (and most likely an intention to use it more than
once). And while alone "Super Dimiension" is proper usage, when applied to the
Macross title, and holds the specific meaning of the ship being able to fold,
then teh proper usage is "Dimensional." If in the title you're implying that
there's a seperation between "Super Dimension" & "Fortress Macross" (as in that
case Super Dimension would not be specifically tied in with the rest, example
being "Super Dimension, Fortress Macross") then and only then would "Super
Dimension" stand proper. Of course then the Classification SDF-1 would still
stand for "Super Dimensional Fortress," seperate from the title.
>Of course they are, but if they give a show the title "Angle Rape Nexus" then
>that's the title, whether it makes sense to you or not. Even if the Japanese
>title
>could potentially be translated into a different English title that might
>make
>more sense to you, that doesn't change their title. You might be able to get
>the
>rights to the show and do a dub with a different English title that makes
>more
>sense to you, but that doesn't change history.
Even if I could get the rights to a show, I seriously doubt I'd dub it. In the
example "Angle Rape Nexus" (an odd choice, but none the less), there's on use
of improper english. As such, it does not apply here.
>The English title IS the original title.
Implication again being that the meaning wasn't originally concieved for the
title in Japanese, a hard claim to make considering which language they were
more fluent in. Nor does it change tthe fact that in regards to the meaning of
the ship being able to fold, "Dimension" is an improper usage.
>You've said yourself that changing dimension to dimensional doesn't change
>the
>meaning. What's the point of it then? You can write alternate translations of
>the
>Japanese title all you want, but it doesn't change the English title.
It doesn't change the meaning as a whole, but it does fix it to proper English,
depending on what you're specifying the title meant.
>How are you using the word "viable" in this context?
Viable in reference to the show.
>By the way, if you want some more info on anime robot
>shows, check out this site:
>
>http://www.yk.rim.or.jp/~akira_t/rbdble/
>
>You may find some more English language titles to translate into English
>there. :)
Thanks, I'll check it out.
George Edward Purdy
CokaCola Cat wrote:
> The title is "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross". PERIOD.
>
Actually, there was never a "The" at the beginning that I saw,
despite Egan Loo's assertion to the contrary.
>
> *thwaps him on the head with his mighty wooden mallet for calling the
> other guy a gai-jin, trying to make himself sound cool* NO SOUP FOR YOU!
>
Nobody called anyone a gaijin.
George Edward Purdy
CokaCola Cat wrote:
Nobody called anyone a gaijin. Besides, it just means a non-Japanese person. BFD.
CokaCola Cat
And, if you are going to now fight over the "The" part, then I am done
with this thread. Thanks for playing.
The Cat
In article <383A3442...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
George Edward Purdy
"CocaCola Cat". You are self-parody.
CokaCola Cat wrote:
> I quote you exactly, Beavis, "No, it simply provides another example to
> support the stereotype of the arrogance and stupidity of gaijin."
>
> And, if you are going to now fight over the "The" part, then I am done
> with this thread. Thanks for playing.
>
> The Cat
>
> In article <383A3442...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
> >
> >
> > CokaCola Cat wrote:
> >
> > > The title is "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross". PERIOD.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, there was never a "The" at the beginning that I saw,
> > despite Egan Loo's assertion to the contrary.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > *thwaps him on the head with his mighty wooden mallet for calling the
> > > other guy a gai-jin, trying to make himself sound cool* NO SOUP FOR YOU!
> > >
> >
> > Nobody called anyone a gaijin.
> >
> >
--
George Edward Purdy
at the person I was responding to? We were talking about the release
of the Macross movie with the word "superdimensional" in the title. I
was talking about the gaijin who put that in the title. You reacted as
if "gaijin" was a dirty word. Now I'll call someone a gaijin. I'm a gaijin.
I'm pretty sure you and the majority of the people in this newsgroup
are gaijin. A gaijin is a non-Japanese person. Are you from Japan?
I'm not. Get over it.
As for whether "The" is in the title or not, I don't remember seeing it.
Is that important? Well, it depends on whether you want to know
what the Japanese titled the show. If not, then you won't care. If you
want to know what they called the show, then it matters.
Is it "That 70s Show" or is it okay to call it "The 70s Show"?
Is it Star Wars or The Star Wars? Star Trek or The Star Trek?
Well, what does it say on the screen? Is it important to use any accuracy
or literary integrity in any kind of reporting at all, or not?
CokaCola Cat wrote:
> I quote you exactly, Beavis, "No, it simply provides another example to
> support the stereotype of the arrogance and stupidity of gaijin."
>
> And, if you are going to now fight over the "The" part, then I am done
> with this thread. Thanks for playing.
>
> The Cat
>
> In article <383A3442...@sig.net>, slo...@sig.net says...
> >
> >
> > CokaCola Cat wrote:
> >
> > > The title is "The Super Dimension Fortress Macross". PERIOD.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, there was never a "The" at the beginning that I saw,
> > despite Egan Loo's assertion to the contrary.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > *thwaps him on the head with his mighty wooden mallet for calling the
> > > other guy a gai-jin, trying to make himself sound cool* NO SOUP FOR YOU!
> > >
> >
> > Nobody called anyone a gaijin.
> >
> >
--