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Dancing with the DNB

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Melissa

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Aug 14, 2002, 3:20:54 PM8/14/02
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"I'm not coming up this weekend. My friend's baby shower is on
Sunday, so I've been counting on this weekend for life maintenance for
over a month."

"Well, take Friday off, and come to Tuolumne with me."

"I can't. I need to save my climbing days off for walls. Besides, I
need to spend some time on the pile of no-fun grown-up chores that's
been building up."

"Well, just come out for Saturday then. You know you want to."

Oh, no! Not the look. Yes, I'm getting the look.

Resolve waning, "I really shouldn't."

Within seconds I'd talked myself out of responsibility and into going
climbing, realizing, of course, that if J. was hard up for a partner
that I'd probably be able to coerce him into dragging me up something
substantial.

"If I come up for just Saturday, can I pick the route?"

"If you come up for just Saturday then you can climb anything that you
want."

"The South Face of the Column."

"Whatever you want that is in the shade."

"How about Steck-Salathe?"

"Um, it's not that I think you can't do it...I just don't want to set
us up for an epic. .How about the Rostrum?"

He sounds serious. "Why not Astroman?" I sound sarcastic.

"How about the Kor-Beck?"

"No." If he wants me to come up for one day, he's going to have to go
bigger than the Kor-Beck, which I could probably climb without him,
thank you very much.

"How about the North Butress?"

"Jo and Bob are aleady doing it Saturday."

"Oh."

"I think you'd like the Kor-Beck."

"How about Ho Chi Minh?"

"Mwah-hah-hah!!!" What? Did I just suggest that we free climb the
nose? "How about the E. Buttress?"

"DNB or life-maintenance. That's my final offer. I want to learn to
chimney."

"Have you ever chimneyed before?"

"Just that day when I TRed the first pitch with Hans, but I didn't
fall." I keep the part about the wheezing, the groveling, the leaden
arms, and thrashed knees to myself.

"OK. The DNB it is. Let's go at 7:00. If we can make a half-hour
per pitch that will get up to the Powell-Reid ledges by noon. If we
take an hour per pitch from there to the top and two and half to
descend, we'll be down by dark. But if we don't make the ledge by
noon, then we should bail on to Kor-Beck."

"What is it with you and the Kor-Beck?" I ask, realizing that he
doesn't think that I'll be able to move that fast for that long. I
also note that the Supertopo calls most of the lower pitches 5.10 and
the upper pitches are mostly 5.6-5.8. I wonder if he's putting the
time restrictions on the 5.10 pitches to really hedge all bets away
from me creating an epic in my gumby exhuberance or if he really
thinks that the "easier" pitches which are also the chimney pitches
will be the show-stoppers.

"I just like the Kor-Beck. But let's do the DNB. It will be fun."

OK, now I'm in trouble. Middle Cathedral has been a scarey place for
me this season...a lot of bad juju going on over there. But of all of
the routes, the DNB is probably the scariest. The anchor failure of a
fellow climber and neuroscientist there is something that has haunted
me every time I've considered climbing at Middle. The recent rock
fall on the DNB and in the descent gulley have further bolstered my
resolve to find other places to climb when possible. But on a 98
degree day, it's hard to find willing accomplices to any of the south
facing grade V's in the valley.

Apart from my fear of the objective hazards, I know that I'll have
cover some serious distance doing a type of climbing that I've
essentially never done before. I know that J. doubts my ability to
keep up. I really wanted to climb my best and prove his doubts
groundless. I also know that if I fail to do so, I'll have a hard
time convincing him to agree to any of the other epics that I am
hoping to create over the coming months.

J. leaves the ground at 7:40. I'm having a hard time imagining
keeping all of the lower pitches under 30 minutes a piece as we will
now need to do to arrive at the top of pitch ten by noon.

He links the first two pitches, and I have to simul behind him for a
few feet to get him to the anchor. The first couple of moves are
essentially fourth class, but with every step I wonder when he'll get
to the anchor and if it will be before I am committed to starting the
gaping chimney just a few feet away from me.

He gets to the anchor and puts me on belay just in time for me to
start my first pre-chimney dance. The pre-chimney dance looks like
this. Move most of your stuff to the left side, but leave a few
things on the right side that you think won't get in the way. Stick
your right side in the chimney. Realize that the belay device pinned
between your butt and the wall is not going to work. Extract self
from chimney before moving upward. Move everything to left side.
Reinsert right side in chimney. Decide that left side in chimney
would work better. Move everything to right side. Repeat several
times. Contemplate heaving your approach shoes to the base. Give up,
and try climbing anyway.

Eventually I arrive at the final step of the pre-chimney dance and try
moving upwards. It's only 5.7, right? The thing feels like a
treadmill, and I'm really worried that if I don't get it together a
little better, we'll have to bail. I feel like my pride is really on
the line over this climb for some reason, so I am elated when I
finally started to get the hang of it after many initial false starts.
My climbing is shakey, but I feel like I am having one of those rare
and precious quantum moments, like the instant when I went from not
being able to keep my bike upright to cruising a wobbly path all the
way to the end of the driveway.

We get through the initial chimney and set out on the 5.10 face
pitches. This type of climbing is much more familiar to me, and even
though there is a fall here and "watch me" there, I am able to keep
our pace, and I even manage to get back some of the time lost to our
late start.

The rock through these pitches is really amazing to me, providing a
circuitous route on abundant features. I remark to J. that it feels
like the rock wants us to climb it. He likes that I say this because
it tells him that I am sharing in the sense of belonging that he often
goes up the Cathedrals to find.

We manage to get to the top of the tenth pitch pretty close to our
noon deadline, so we push for the top. I know that hundreds of feet
of sustained chimneying lie ahead of me. It's early, but a night
hunkering down on a ledge is still not out of the question.

I do the pre-chimney dance a few times and then start finding my
groove again. The groove lasts until I have to stop the
counterpressured chimneying motions for some reason. Then I have to
do the dance all over again and find a good started foot to get going
again. I curse my approach shoes openly.

A few pitches into the upper pitches and it's clear that I'm getting
tired in such as way as to make my climbing much more difficult than
it needs to be. The liter of water that I'd brought with me is a
distant memory, but at least the bottle isn't in my way anymore. I
get to one point where I'm having a difficult time getting started up
the next chimney section, and I'm falling a lot. After several
unfruitful rounds with the pre-chimney dance, I find that my only
recourse is to bitch about the shoes.

J. suggests that I pull down a bight of rope and clip the shoes in
above me. Since it doesn't seem like they'd hang up in this wide
section or that they'd trundle loose rock on my noggin, I decide to
rig them up there. This pitch that I climb without my shoes on my
harness feels like pure bliss. I decide that I'll descend barefoot in
snow if I have to, but I'll never come on another chimney climb with
big approach shoes again.

We get to the final pitch, a long 5.8 chimney, and something magical
happens. There is no pre-chimney dance...just chimney. I execute the
same small move over and over, smoothly, as it is supposed to be, and
I ender that almost trance-like peaceful state that I find in this
type of elegant physical repetition...my crack-climbing analog to a
runners high.

Over the course of this long day but crystallized in this moment, I
realize that I have learned a beautiful new dance and experienced a
new kind of terrain that wants me to climb it. So often over the past
summer I have heard Middle Cathedral telling me to stay away. But
today, with her wide chimneys open like a mothers arms, she told me
that I belong.

D a v i d E m r i c h

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Aug 14, 2002, 6:44:17 PM8/14/02
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Nice TR Melissa!

Glad you enjoyed the climb. DNB used to be on my hit list but I removed it
awhile ago.

BTW, in the chimneys, you can dangle stuff (shoes, water) below you on your daisy.

David


Dingus Milktoast

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Aug 14, 2002, 7:01:08 PM8/14/02
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"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote

Nice TR Melissa.

DMT


Melissa

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Aug 14, 2002, 7:04:48 PM8/14/02
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"D a v i d E m r i c h" <emr...@bigfoot.extrastuff.com> wrote:

>Glad you enjoyed the climb. DNB used to be on my hit list but I
>removed it awhile ago.

Why is that? I thought it was pretty spectacular.

>BTW, in the chimneys, you can dangle stuff (shoes, water) below
>you on your daisy.

Thanks for the tip. I tried hanging the shoes off of their laces, but they
were still in the way. Maybe a daisy would be better.

We saw a fanny pack in one of the chimneys near the top. We figured that
it was probably didn't get fixed exactly, but that the owner just got so
frustrated w/ it that they crammed it back in there.

Melissa

D a v i d E m r i c h

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Aug 14, 2002, 7:24:59 PM8/14/02
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"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d5ae210$1...@eCompute.org...

>
> "D a v i d E m r i c h" <emr...@bigfoot.extrastuff.com> wrote:
>
> >Glad you enjoyed the climb. DNB used to be on my hit list but I
> >removed it awhile ago.
>
> Why is that? I thought it was pretty spectacular.

It got bumped off. There are too many other climbs that seem more
realistic/safer for me. OTOH if I had a rope gun...

> >BTW, in the chimneys, you can dangle stuff (shoes, water) below
> >you on your daisy.
>
> Thanks for the tip. I tried hanging the shoes off of their laces, but they
> were still in the way. Maybe a daisy would be better.
>
> We saw a fanny pack in one of the chimneys near the top. We figured that
> it was probably didn't get fixed exactly, but that the owner just got so
> frustrated w/ it that they crammed it back in there.

I could see that. The last thing to annoy me in a chimney was probably this gear sling:
<http://www.shorelinemtn.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=GS-0403&variation=&aitem=6&mitem=10>
On that pitch (Liberty Crack, Pitch 5) I had to move it to the other side a few times.
Overall, it's a great sling, but on that pitch I shouldda used a simple bandolier. It was a fun
pitch too. It shoulda been my partner's, but for some reason he was more than happy
for me to lead it...

David

Nate B

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Aug 14, 2002, 8:04:26 PM8/14/02
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"Melissa"

> Middle Cathedral has been a scarey place for
> me this season...a lot of bad juju going on over there.

So - how was the route condition? Did you find any damage on any of the
pitches? There have been so many different stories...

> I know that hundreds of feet
> of sustained chimneying lie ahead of me.

I recall feeling pretty good at the base of the final pitches, then pretty
worked afterward. After 7 years, though, the pitch I recall most clearly is
some 5.9 pitch that kind of veered right through several parallel and
discontinuous crack systems. Fun stuff.

Chimneys and locker 5.9 cracks. DNB before dark. Nice. Half Dome IAD is
the next logical step?


- Nate

Theresa Ho

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Aug 14, 2002, 9:00:17 PM8/14/02
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Great TR, Melissa. I thought the DNB was a beautiful route too. It
always bugs me when I hear someone say that DNB stands for Do Not Bother.
Those chimney pitches up top are great.

Are you a chimney hound now? There are some excellent chimneys on
Steck-Salathe... All in all it isn't as nice of a route as the DNB (IMO)
but the Narrows are amazing (at least for those of us who fit).

So.... you took 1 litre of water to do the DNB on a 98 degree day?!?
Yikes! Well, I'm inspired by your motivation and ability to brave the
heat. Maybe I'll try to do the same next week - except with more water...

T

Guillaume Dargaud

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Aug 14, 2002, 9:36:46 PM8/14/02
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> "DNB or life-maintenance. That's my final offer. I want to learn to
chimney."
Excellent TR, and I don't say that too often.
Or maybe I'm biased 'cause I got so scared on it by the missing belays, the
'4th class' chimneys...
It's the only Yosemite route I actively discourage people in doing, except
if they climb a couple grades above me, which is not saying much.
--
Guillaume Dargaud
Colorado State University
http://www.gdargaud.net/Climbing/Yosemite.html
"When dealing with patients, supervisors, or citizens, if it felt good
saying it, it was the wrong thing to say."

Burt Bronson

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Aug 14, 2002, 11:10:24 PM8/14/02
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HI. BURT BRONSON HERE. NICE TR.

BURT

"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:f6c038f0.02081...@posting.google.com...

Karl Baba

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Aug 15, 2002, 12:08:43 AM8/15/02
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Proud climb Melissa and great TR.

I like the DNB and Ho Chi Mihn! They're burly though. I wouldn't dream
of going up with 1 liter! The pack on the daisy trick works great BTW
and 10 dollar water socks make great Yosemite descent shoes and fold
flat, flat, flat.

BTW, the DNB has a 5.10 variation to the first two pitches that is less
physical suffering.

Well Done!

Karl

--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/

Bill Wright

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Aug 15, 2002, 11:30:35 AM8/15/02
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"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<ajer6j$19u172$1...@ID-82914.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Melissa"

> > I know that hundreds of feet
> > of sustained chimneying lie ahead of me.
>
> I recall feeling pretty good at the base of the final pitches, then pretty
> worked afterward. Fun stuff.

Agreed. The bottom half is more technical and a bit runout and scary,
but the crux of this route is the continuous burliness of the upper
half. In Yosemite, ratings on pitches are secondary to the crack
width. If the crack is offwidth or a chimney, you should treat it with
respect as it will be a struggle even if rated 5.7. I remember one
pitch up there that was rated 4th class, but was solid 5.7.

> Chimneys and locker 5.9 cracks. DNB before dark. Nice. Half Dome IAD is
> the next logical step?

An awesome achievement to do this route so fast. The one time I did
it, we took two days and hauled! The age-old problem of speed. We did
it in November and just weren't fast enough to get it done in a day.
Things like this prompted my interest in being able to move faster.

The next logical step, though, is the Steck-Salathe. Especially if you
want to continue your wide crack training. This baby is PHYSICAL! I
also did this route first over two days. I went back last year to do
it again and made it in a day, but just barely. What a butt-kicker!
But such great, wide cracks.

Bill

Brad Brandewie

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Aug 15, 2002, 11:41:53 AM8/15/02
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A beautifully written TR Melissa!

Congrats on your day.

Brad


iamthew...@hotmail.com (Melissa) wrote in message news:<f6c038f0.02081...@posting.google.com>...

Dingus Milktoast

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Aug 15, 2002, 11:54:34 AM8/15/02
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"Bill Wright" <wwwrigh...@yahoo.com> wrote
> "Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote

> > Chimneys and locker 5.9 cracks. DNB before dark. Nice. Half Dome IAD
is
> > the next logical step?

> The next logical step, though, is the Steck-Salathe. Especially if you


> want to continue your wide crack training. This baby is PHYSICAL!

Well fellas, that depends on a person's definition of 'logical.' For some
people, after having survived the DNB, the next logical step would be a fall
of sport climbing.

Why, in trad climbing, is the 'next logical step' always one step closer to
the Grim Reaper? Why does logic 'dictate' upping the ante each time? At what
point does the 'next logical step' lead to retirement?

Not really a serious question, but I never made the next logical step to
HDIAD (though, unfortunately, I still dream... what a putz I am to hold the
dreams of others as my own)...

A quick note about water: Angus and I were coming down from the DNB. We'd
been out of water for quite some time. As we descended Cathedral Chimney,
some dude was day hiking up. Asked us if he could make the notch. Turns out
he thought he was in the Spires Gully. We disabused him of that notion, very
politely. So he offered us a drink of water. Held up a full nalgene bottle
and said, 'drink all you want fellas.'

I paused, lips at the bottle, and gave him a gun fighter's squint,

"Man, we're really thirsty. You sure? We'll drink it all dude.' Angus
chortled, or what passed for a chortle in his dry throat. The guy responds,

"Sure, drink it all. You guys look parched."

So I up ended it, and drank half in two big gulps. Handed the bottle to
Angus, who sucked the rest down in one go. He handed the empty bottle back
to it's owner (about a 10 second transaction start to finish), who seemed to
immediately regret his kind act (it was the only water he had). We thanked
him again and with nary a look back, continued on our way.

That water sure tasted good. What a kind hearted soul. What was that about
karma again?

DMT


Nate B

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Aug 15, 2002, 12:41:00 PM8/15/02
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"Dingus Milktoast"

> Well fellas, that depends on a person's definition of 'logical.' For some
> people, after having survived the DNB, the next logical step would be a
fall
> of sport climbing.

I've read posts from her containing things like "more chimneys", and an
interest in Half Dome. Just suggestions from my reading, guy.

> Why, in trad climbing, is the
> 'next logical step' always one step closer to
> the Grim Reaper?

Half Dome and SS. are safe routes. In fact, there are very few dangerous
routes in all of rock climbing - provided you arrive with the skills.

> Not really a serious question, but I never made the next logical step to
> HDIAD

She mentioned S. Face of the Column - I presumed in one day given the
schedule - then did DNB without mention of a bivy. I would say that HDIAD
is pretty much in that same vein - and certainly possible for someone who
completed the above two routes in a day each. However, I'll confess that I
used logic to come to that conclusion - as well as my knowledge of how
people tend progress in the Valley.

> (though, unfortunately, I still dream... what a putz I am to hold the
> dreams of others as my own)...

Ah yes - vicarity, fear of some unknown and undescribable reaper - the fire
behind your post.


> A quick note about water:

We arrived atop Long's pretty hot and dried out once, and here's this guy
looking to get rid of a 1/2 gallon of bottled water he didn't want to carry
back down. We accepted. Water is generally worth the extra weight, but
sometimes worth the risk to carry a little less. I think 3 liters in a day
pack for both was standard for me for Valley all-day routes.


- Nate

Dingus Milktoast

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:17:20 PM8/15/02
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"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote

>Just suggestions from my reading, guy.

Of course. I hope she has 'fun.'

>However, I'll confess that I
> used logic to come to that conclusion - as well as my knowledge of how
> people tend progress in the Valley.

Most people progress in a certain fashion
because they have been taught that is 'the next step.' Logic, in making that
determination, seems to have little to do with it. Tradition, as in, that's
how others have progressed, seems to be more accurate.

> Ah yes - vicarity, fear of some unknown and undescribable reaper - the
fire
> behind your post.

There was no fire, sorry. I wasn't being critical of either of you. But
yeah, the fear of the unknown is a powerful
anxiety in my life. Amen.

Just asking the age old question of why upping the ante always seems to be
the next logical step. I wasn't contradicting you or Will and admitted to
answering to the same pressures. Peer pressure that is, from guys like you,
citing the next logical steps.

You used logic and cited your valley experience. Cool. You have an
impressive record there. But the question remains... why is upping the ante
the next logical step? It's a serious question. Explain the logic if you
please...

DMT


Nate B

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:14:50 PM8/15/02
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"Dingus Milktoast"

> But the question remains... why is upping the ante
> the next logical step? It's a serious question. Explain the logic if you
> please...

It's the way of a true rock climber, Dingus. What a silly question.


- Nate

Dingus Milktoast

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:27:57 PM8/15/02
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"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ajgnpj$1biver$1...@ID-82914.news.dfncis.de...

I know it's the WAY. I've been following it for years. I'm asking why. I
know 'why' is a silly question. I'm asking it anyway. Anyone else want to
take a stab at this?

DMT


Nate B

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:37:39 PM8/15/02
to

"Dingus Milktoast"

> I know it's the WAY. I've been following it for years. I'm asking why. I
> know 'why' is a silly question. I'm asking it anyway. Anyone else want to
> take a stab at this?

Life gets pretty stale and boring if you are not on the edge of your
abilities, perceptions, capacity to accept challenges, etc. You know this.
You know some choose to not live stale and boring lives.

- Nate

Andy Gale

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:53:15 PM8/15/02
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Dingus Milktoast wrote:


It's human nature. People have always done it, in every endeavour, not
just rock climbing. Ever since we dropped down out of the tree and
sharpened sticks. Next thing you know, we were sharpening rocks. We
lived in caves. Then we wanted better caves, so we built them. Further
on down the line we built steam engines, then we built bigger steam
engines. Same thing with computers. Bigger is always better. There is
always a logical progression to the next one. It's human nature, man.
We've gotta do it. Call it what you will. Most call it progress.
Luddites call it something else. But progress tramples them anyway.
Manifest Destiny, Java rules, Space, the final frontier. I wanna climb
TNIAD. Bigger, better, faster, more. If we didn't do it we would still
be monkeys.

Andy


Mad Dog

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Aug 15, 2002, 1:35:52 PM8/15/02
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Nate says...

>We arrived atop Long's pretty hot and dried out once, and here's this guy
>looking to get rid of a 1/2 gallon of bottled water he didn't want to carry
>back down.

We took a quart apiece up Epinephrine and took our last sips right after topping
out. As I was scrambling towards the summit, I found a full 1.5 liter bottle
with a note that said they had carried too much and to enjoy. It was soooo
good, but we sipped rather than gulped and it lasted us nearly down to the
summit of Whiskey Peak. I figure, being so close to Vegas, Elvis musta left it
for us. Thangyouvurrymuuch, momma!

Melissa

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Aug 15, 2002, 3:43:35 PM8/15/02
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"D a v i d E m r i c h" <emr...@bigfoot.extrastuff.com> wrote:
>
>"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d5ae210$1...@eCompute.org...
>>
>> "D a v i d E m r i c h" <emr...@bigfoot.extrastuff.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Glad you enjoyed the climb. DNB used to be on my hit list but
>I
>> >removed it awhile ago.
>>
>> Why is that? I thought it was pretty spectacular.
>
>It got bumped off. There are too many other climbs that seem more
>realistic/safer for me. OTOH if I had a rope gun...

I see. It will be a long time (if ever) before this route fits comfortably
within the range of stuff that I'd take on without a substantially more experienced
partner. I thought you were saying that you used to like it, but changed
your mind.

Find a ropegun! It was worth it and plenty of work to just second.

Melissa

Melissa

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Aug 15, 2002, 4:37:14 PM8/15/02
to

If anyone really wants to know what the next "logical" step for me is...Here
are the steps, and here is my logic.

I do want to "up the ante". To me that feels like improvement, and I get
a certain amount of self satisfaction out of improving. Even though it would
be excellent if I could just find enough pure joy in being outside that improvement
wouldn't matter, reality is more in line with me feeling like I'm not using
my time well if I don't see progress. Part of the reason for doing the DNB
when I did was that I needed to do a route that would make me feel 'productive'
(because I knew I'd be learning something new) since I wasn't going to be
staying in SF working on my chores.

There were 2 main things that I wanted to work on by doing the DNB:

1. Chimney technique
2. Climbing long routes efficiently

For the first, it was sort of the 'learning to swim by getting heaved into
the deep end' approach. The only reason why I was able to do it was that
it was such a walk in the park for my parnter. I skipped a couple of logical
steps in proceding this way, so for me, the next logical step is going to
be to back track and learn a bit of proper technique in a more sane setting.
I'm thinking Arch Rock, Cookie Cliff.

Maybe after TRing some more wide stuff to some of the glitches worked out,
I'll try leading some real chimney pitches (not just the odd move or two
that I've had to manage before.) I'm not sure that I should be taking a
"next step" until I can achieve the DNB step in better style.

I have to admit, though, that I'd love to do the Steck-Salathe if J. agrees
to another long and wide ropegun session.

This weekend I'm going to work more on long and efficient but in situations
where I'm either doing all of the leading or sharing it. Today is my b-day
(had to work that in somehow...), so I'm going to try and do 29 pitches to
commemorate with the emphasis on distance not difficulty. I'm not sure what
the combo of routes will be, but probably it will involve Royal Arches.
Maybe the E. But of Middle. Maybe the SF of the North Dome. Maybe Commitment/Selaginella.
Maybe Kor-Beck. But only routes where I know I won't be getting stopped
in my tracks for long fretting over moves or gear.

Being a weekend warrior, it's great to be able to do big routes in a day
or weekend. Nate was right that I'd like to do the SF of the Column in a
day. I think with a partner as strong as J., I should be able to accomplish
that sharing leads. Part of the "logic" in my wanting to do that route with
him, is that I hoped that he'd be able to give me pointers on making my aid
climbing more efficient since all of the aid that I've done this season has
either been solo or with a less experienced partner and I find it absolutely
amazing that it is humanly possible to move as slowly as I always do. Benighting
and/or bailing are pretty much de rigeur when I get on a wall by myself,
and I'd like to have an experience where neither happens.

I'd also like to do the NWF of HD IAD, but probably not this season. The
IAD is key for me there because I have decided that I don't particularly
care for 5 hour hikes with mondo haul bags, and I'd like to do that route
swinging leads without having to "enjoy" every other pitch by shoving a pig
up the wall on on jugs. It's probably not the _next_ logical route though
because I think I might be able to manage it next season with a non-ropegun
partner, but probably not quite yet.

My next big project is to do the Nose (I3-4D) with J., probably in a month
or so, because, oddly, it fits both of our climbing goals.

He has been climbing in the Valley for over 10 years including several years
as a YOSAR siter, yet he has never done this route. When he first started
coming to the Valley, he waited until he could climb harder (Now he'll probably
free all but the crux pitches and will probably try those anyway). Then
when he could climb harder, all of his buddies had already done it and would
only really be interested in doing it IAD, but after all this time, he wants
to stay up there for a few days to savour the route and enjoy the great ledges.

So, enter me...aside from the whole girlfriend/he thinks I'm cute angle,
I'll let him lead all of the pitches as long as he'll belay me to follow
the =<5.10 pitches. I'd like to lead some of it, but in a way, the opportunity
to play the supporting role for someone who has define much of his adult
life by the Valley yet saved this route for so long, is really the bigger
privilege IMO. So lot of this endurance, crack training is leading me towards
this step, because if I blow it big there, mine won't be the only experience
effected.

Wpfeew...I don't know if anyone read all of that long winded blah, blah,
blah, but I guess I've thrown down my own guanlet now!

What were the 'logical' route progressions (and logic behind thme) that others
have followed?

Melissa

Melissa

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 4:45:28 PM8/15/02
to

"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"Melissa"
>
>> Middle Cathedral has been a scarey place for
>> me this season...a lot of bad juju going on over there.
>
>So - how was the route condition? Did you find any damage on any
>of the
>pitches? There have been so many different stories...

I know this isn't what you were asking about, but I found it surprising...The
cracks were full of cobwebs. I guess I wasn't the only one scared away by
the rock fall.

I'd never been on the route before, so it's hard for me to comment on changes.
J. pointed out one place where there was a major fall (a huge slab of rock
that came off) where you used to go left, but now you have to go right to
rejoin the route, but there were lots of features so it went at 5.9-5.10.
The anchors kind of sucked, but I suspect that they always did. He pointed
out one anchor bolt that was added to a stance where there was basically
nothing. There wasn't rotten rock on the route, nor were there many loose
chockstones or rubble on the ledges. J. was thinking about where Tom Dunwiddie's
accident could have happened, but nowhere seemed like an obvious candiate.
The other night we reasoned that the strange 3/8" bolts on top that I mentioned
in Greg Barnes thread were probably rescue bolts added to deal with the recent
badness.

The descent gully was loose, but OK. The most dangerous part was probably
pulling the rope on the raps. The rock seemed the most stable over by the
the left wall and was still pretty much flowing like a river down the middle.


Melissa

Melissa

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 4:53:39 PM8/15/02
to

gung...@hotmail.com (Theresa Ho) wrote:

>Are you a chimney hound now?

I'm definately inspired enough to spend some more time learning to climb
them.


>So.... you took 1 litre of water to do the DNB on a 98 degree day?!?

Well, maybe 98 degrees on the pizza deck. The DNB goes into the shade by
11:30, and we were high enough off the ground by the time things really started
to warm up that we never felt anything close to 98.

>Yikes! Maybe I'll try to do the same next week - except with more
>water...

A liter was definately less than ideal though. I'd bring more if I was doing
it over.

I kept having fantasies about finding water on top. I also knew that J.'s
friends were on the North But, and I kept rolling this scene in my head where
we'd see them on top and they'd say "We brought way to much water. Do you
want it?" Neither happened. We headed strait for the spring when we got
down though.

Have fun if you do it this weekend.

Melissa

D a v i d E m r i c h

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 5:21:38 PM8/15/02
to

"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d5c10fa$1...@eCompute.org...

> There were 2 main things that I wanted to work on by doing the DNB:
>
> 1. Chimney technique
> 2. Climbing long routes efficiently
>
> For the first, it was sort of the 'learning to swim by getting heaved into
> the deep end' approach. The only reason why I was able to do it was that
> it was such a walk in the park for my parnter. I skipped a couple of logical
> steps in proceding this way, so for me, the next logical step is going to
> be to back track and learn a bit of proper technique in a more sane setting.
> I'm thinking Arch Rock, Cookie Cliff.

One of my favorite short climbs, which also happens to have some exciting
chimneys is Right Side of the Cookie (5.8R). Despite the short raps shown
on the Supertopo (which Chris is fixing) don't attempt it with only a single 50m
rope. Based on your next (and earlier) comments, you'd probably prefer to
follow it.

> Maybe after TRing some more wide stuff to some of the glitches worked out,
> I'll try leading some real chimney pitches (not just the odd move or two
> that I've had to manage before.)

Done Church Bowl Chimney (IIRC 5.6)? It's pretty fun. I think it's safer than
Right Side of the Cookie too. I seem to recall it being well protected, which
is a nice bonus for a chimney.

> This weekend I'm going to work more on long and efficient but in situations
> where I'm either doing all of the leading or sharing it. Today is my b-day
> (had to work that in somehow...)

OK then. Happy Birthday!

David

A. Cairns

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 7:08:57 PM8/15/02
to

Nate B wrote:

From the Dept. of Simple Answers to Complex Questions, the problem is
tolerance. To keep getting the same effect you have to keep upping the dose. I
think Balzac said it in the original French.

You can also try a period of abstention but a cure is elusive.

Andy Cairns


Nate B

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 7:45:30 PM8/15/02
to

"A. Cairns"


> From the Dept. of Simple Answers to Complex Questions, the problem is
> tolerance. To keep getting the same effect you have to keep upping the
dose. I
> think Balzac said it in the original French.

The effect I get now after several years of rock climbing is much stronger
than anything I felt when I was starting out.

> You can also try a period of abstention but a cure is elusive.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. I suggest an attempt at burnout.


- Nate


PS - from dictionary.com Abstention - The act or habit of deliberate
self-denial.

Mad Dog

unread,
Aug 15, 2002, 8:49:05 PM8/15/02
to
Melissa says...

>I skipped a couple of logical steps in proceding this way, so for me, the
>next logical step is going to be to back track and learn a bit of proper
>technique in a more sane setting.

Plus...

>Maybe after TRing some more wide stuff to some of the glitches worked out,
>I'll try leading some real chimney pitches (not just the odd move or two
>that I've had to manage before.)

Something to consider: later in the year, maybe October, take a little extended
weekend road trip to Red Rocks. Do some of the wide stuff there. The squeeze
on Tunnel Vision is rated 5.7 and can be protected if you want to take a big cam
and/or a Big Bro. From what I hear, that pitch would be about 5.5 in the Valley
and the pro would be considered stellar. If that feels good, then maybe go run
up Epinephrine. Again, the pro is mostly bomber. The last squeeze pitch is
more runout but the rock there has features and besides, nobody falls in/out of
chimneys, right? (Wrong, I once decked from ~35' out of a chimney)

Brutus once said that the Epi chimneys would be 5.7 in the Valley, so these
would probably be a cruise for you. If you took the rope gun along, you could
swing leads and you'd fly up the upper pitches. There are no doubt other
options but the point is that the Valley isn't the only place around with wide
stuff. Lots of desert options, like around Moab, etc. A change of scenery is
good for the climbing head when working through new techniques.

>Wpfeew...I don't know if anyone read all of that long winded blah, blah,
>blah, but I guess I've thrown down my own guanlet now!

Just trust your partner and if fear is an issue, face it as best you can. Don't
lead if it doesn't feel right. If you get afraid, take the time to think about
it before jumping into the automatic bail mode. Hang in there.

>What were the 'logical' route progressions (and logic behind thme) that others
>have followed?

Logical? Moi? No way. I have no idea why I found myself way runout on OW's or
sliding down chimneys the day after a big rain. I guess I should blame my
partners. To be truthful, there are so many options WRT progression that I
think we are all free to interpret as we see fit. Following equations is far
too boring. Just have fun and do the things that appeal at that time.

A. Cairns

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 12:24:11 AM8/16/02
to

Nate B wrote:

> The effect I get now after several years of rock climbing is much stronger
> than anything I felt when I was starting out.

Sssh.

Michael Boos

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 7:41:42 AM8/16/02
to
Nice TR, Melissa, thank you for sharing it.

Was a long time ago for me - memories come up ...

I love chimneys, you understand it now, I see.

--
*********************
L. Michael Boos
CH-8001 Zuerich
*********************
to e-mail remove 4 dots from left to right

Lord Slime

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 12:49:41 PM8/16/02
to
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> So, enter me...aside from the whole girlfriend/he thinks I'm cute angle,
> I'll let him lead all of the pitches as long as he'll belay me to follow
> the =<5.10 pitches. I'd like to lead some of it, but in a way, the opportunity
> to play the supporting role for someone who has define much of his adult
> life by the Valley yet saved this route for so long, is really the bigger
> privilege IMO.
> What were the 'logical' route progressions (and logic behind thme) that others
> have followed?

This is not an answer you wanted, but it may be an answer you
should seriously consider for the long term:

Get out from under the wing of your boyfriend. Go do some climbs
at your limit where *you* are the stronger climber of the two. Be the
leader on the rock. Take the responsibility for the team's success
on the route.

I think this may up the ante more than following a rope-gun around.

- Lord Slime


Melissa

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 3:02:14 PM8/16/02
to

I think if you read my thingie, you'll see that is exactly what I want to
work towards. Before I do anything harder than the DNB, I want to be able
to do the DNB w/o the ropegun.

In general I _never_ climb when I'm not swinging leads or leading all of
it. Most of my climbing this season has either been solo aid or free climbing
where I was the more experienced partner.

For me it is very difficult to find myself in the role of student/less experienced
partner. It bruises my pride somehow, so it's a bit of an emotional challenge
for me to go do these climbs with J. and let him be the rope gun. In fact,
I hesitated to post a TR about a climb where I followed every pitch. But
what good is a boyfriend who climbs 5.13 if you can't let him lead on a long,
hard route that would otherwise be inaccessible to me?

Seriously, when I'm thinking to myself "How can I best put my boyfriend's
experience to work for me?" there are 3 types of routes that I'll go for:

1. Routes that are totally within my grasp as far as difficulty goes (to
lead), but that are too long for me to be able to lead them without and epic.

2. Routes that are almost totally within my grasp except for a pitch or
two that is gnarly enough to keep me away from the route.

3. Routes that will be fun to thrutch up, but that will be out of my reach
for some time to come.

Routes like the E. But. of Middle or KorBeck are routes that would be challenging,
but doable for me with a partner who is a peer, so I don't want to do these
routes with him.

Of course, I don't stick to these. The DNB is #3. This weekend we're climbing
Royal Arches which is none of the above, but serves my goal of getting in
29 pitches for my birthday challenge. Then I'm going to do the E. But. of
Middle w/ my friend Rachel who has comparable experience to me. The Nose
is a different catagory altogether too. For me it will be four days on a
wall with someone I care about helping him to have an experience that he's
saved for 10 years. I'm fine with that.

Your point is well taken about not being well served by being "the climbing
girlfriend" who always gives the hard stuff to her guy. I promise, though,
that I am definately not "the climbing girlfriend". In fact, it's only the
third time that I've climbed with J. in the 3 months that we've been dating
and going to the Valley every weekend. Our personal goals are usually better
served by being with more comparable partners, although sometimes there is
progress to be made for both of us in sharing a mentor/mentee relationship.
And I like spending the day with him in beautiful places.

Melissa

Dingus Milktoast

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 3:36:17 PM8/16/02
to

"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote

> For me it is very difficult to find myself in the role of student/less
experienced
> partner.

I have found it very difficult to climb with people who are leagues better
than I.

> It bruises my pride somehow,

Agreed. But why? Why does it bother me? Some thoughts...

1. The way I learned to climb was by reading and doing. The whole adventure
aspect of the sport, of first dreaming, then learning and finally doing, is
stunted at best if one does all of this as a 2nd. Unnatural in my case.

2. If I follow a rope gun up a route over my head I constantly feel out of
control when climbing. I worry I'll blow a traverse move and swing into the
void, or I won't be able to follow a given pitch, or whatever. On the lead I
don't often have time to fret over the multitude of things that occupy my
time when I'm 2nding; too concentrated on the task. As others have pointed
out in the past, getting into this concentration head is both elusive and
rewarding... one of the primary draws of the sport. I don't get into that
head space when 2nding, not at all. So without leading I'm missing out on
one of the primary satisfactions of the sport.

3. Dammit, a climber is supposed to LEAD. Logical progressions and all that.
Sure it's OK for some to spend their whole careers following others to the
tops of cliffs. I'm cool with that and I neither think less of such climbers
nor do I care. But I have to have more control over my destiny than that.
Maybe it's a guy thing, maybe a simple machismo thing, but here it is... I
don't claim to have done a route unless I led some of the pitches. And I
don't really feel all that good about a route unless I did my fair share of
those leads, including the hard ones.

Most of my partners and I are fairly equally matched. Where one of us is
weak in say planning, another will be weak in fear management. Where another
is perhaps less ambitious than their skill and fitness should dictate,
another will consistently overestimate the same situation. It all seems to
work out in the end though.

Ironically, I don't particularly care for 'being' the rope gun either. Then
the weight of the world is on my shoulders alone. Might as well be soloing
for all the psychological help I get from this kind of partner.

To me the best progression is to find a good match of a partner, mentally,
physically, technically, and the grow together over time.

But it is inevitable, should we stick to it long enough, that we all find
ourselves roped to a madman, struggling to follow pitches we can neither
lead nor do we want to. Climbing with Brutus has been this way for me. We
were talking about part of this recently, he, Em and I. I remarked,

"You know, the only times we've ever seen each other face to face is at
wilderness trailheads getting ready to go into the bc for a first ascent."
(true, I've known the both of them several years now and these are the only
times we've ever met)

On each outing with Brutus I suffered all the encompassing doubts I
mentioned above. I found the courage to lead some pitches (some days better
than others) and found the chicken-nitis to follow plenty more. But in 4
outings with this crew I've also had a bit of metamorphisis as well.

I'm a very experienced back country climber. But the vast majority of that
experience was in doing the routes of others, with known gear lists and
extensive topos. Having done a bit of apprentice work at the feet of a
master has equipped me for 'upping the ante' once more in my own world.
Establishing wilderness FA's, especially in the longer grades and more
demanding walls, requires a helluva lot of tricks in the bag. Yes, I could
have learned many of these things on my own. But I didn't. Not in 40 years.
But in 4 climbs with Brutus of Wyde I have come away with very specific
knowledge of how to establish hard routes within the scope of my own skill
level... and survive the outting in the process.

So I guess what I'm saying is it's all good in the end.

DMT


Nate B

unread,
Aug 16, 2002, 4:10:55 PM8/16/02
to

"Dingus Milktoast"

> So I guess what I'm saying is it's all good in the end.

Indeed. Few with an ambition to become good climbers are going to spend all
their days seconding.

Finding a good climbing partner complement takes time. I've only had a few.
Playing all of the other different and sometime unequal rolls just teaches
you more about yourself, your climbing motivations, etc.


- Nate

Lord Slime

unread,
Aug 17, 2002, 4:22:45 PM8/17/02
to
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
> >Get out from under the wing of your boyfriend. Go do some climbs
> >at your limit where *you* are the stronger climber of the two.

> I think if you read my thingie, you'll see that is exactly what I want to
> work towards.

And I'm saying do it cold turkey.

> what good is a boyfriend who climbs 5.13 if you can't let him lead on a long,
> hard route that would otherwise be inaccessible to me?

Ah, you could always do the thing most couples do. But seriously, this
is what Sport climbing is good for.

> Seriously, when I'm thinking to myself "How can I best put my boyfriend's
> experience to work for me?" there are 3 types of routes that I'll go for:
>
> 1. Routes that are totally within my grasp as far as difficulty goes (to
> lead), but that are too long for me to be able to lead them without and epic.

Following a ropegun won't improve your leading speed.

> 2. Routes that are almost totally within my grasp except for a pitch or
> two that is gnarly enough to keep me away from the route.

If you choose carefully, you should go for these, and as the stronger
climber.

> 3. Routes that will be fun to thrutch up, but that will be out of my reach
> for some time to come.

Save 'em for later.

It's a quite different situation when you've got a rope-gun along. If you
fail on a pitch, he can do it. If you get tired and slow, he'll get you
off the route before dark. He's there to rely on, thus you aren't relying
on yourself. Scotty is always there to "beam you up".

> Routes like the E. But. of Middle or KorBeck are routes that would be challenging,
> but doable for me with a partner who is a peer, so I don't want to do these
> routes with him.

Good.

> Then I'm going to do the E. But. of
> Middle w/ my friend Rachel who has comparable experience to me.

Do NE Butt of Higher with Rachel after that. If you're successful on
that too, the DNB will be within reach.

> The Nose
> is a different catagory altogether too. For me it will be four days on a
> wall with someone I care about helping him to have an experience that he's
> saved for 10 years. I'm fine with that.

Sex on a portaledge? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

> Your point is well taken about not being well served by being "the climbing
> girlfriend" who always gives the hard stuff to her guy. I promise, though,
> that I am definately not "the climbing girlfriend".

That's good, since I've seen several girlfriends who did not progress due
to their boyfriends.

It's obvious the DNB means/meant a lot to you. Now that you've followed
the whole thing there's NO WAY you'll get the same reward repeating it,
even if you lead the whole thing, as you'd get if you had led/swung leads
on your onsight attempt. That's why onsighting a route is the most coveted
style of ascent.

So perhaps you should set aside many, many climbs that you want to be
able to lead onsight until you have a good shot at leading them.

I have several routes on my hit list that I've been saving for the time when
fitness, opportunity and partner all come together. I could always call up
any number of stronger partners and have them drag me up it, but where's
the satisfaction in that?

- Lord Slime

P.S. See my old, old post "Whatever happened to Style?" (or something like that).

Karl Baba

unread,
Aug 18, 2002, 11:42:06 PM8/18/02
to
In article <3d5fd606$0$182$7586...@news.frii.net>, Lord Slime
<jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:

Lots of snips

> Following a ropegun won't improve your leading speed.

This is not true. In order to push your climbing speed, it is very
helpful to go faster in situations where it's safe to push the limits
and beyond, i.e. following/top-rope. Then you know what it feels like
to climb at a faster rate and you can apply it to leading as well.

snip

> > 3. Routes that will be fun to thrutch up, but that will be out of my reach
> > for some time to come.
>
> Save 'em for later.
>
> It's a quite different situation when you've got a rope-gun along. If you
> fail on a pitch, he can do it. If you get tired and slow, he'll get you
> off the route before dark. He's there to rely on, thus you aren't relying
> on yourself. Scotty is always there to "beam you up".
>

snip

> It's obvious the DNB means/meant a lot to you. Now that you've followed
> the whole thing there's NO WAY you'll get the same reward repeating it,
> even if you lead the whole thing, as you'd get if you had led/swung leads
> on your onsight attempt. That's why onsighting a route is the most coveted
> style of ascent.
>
> So perhaps you should set aside many, many climbs that you want to be
> able to lead onsight until you have a good shot at leading them.
>
> I have several routes on my hit list that I've been saving for the time when
> fitness, opportunity and partner all come together. I could always call up
> any number of stronger partners and have them drag me up it, but where's
> the satisfaction in that?
>
> - Lord Slime
>
> P.S. See my old, old post "Whatever happened to Style?" (or something like that).

Between this and the "speed" thread, I'm dissappointed to see you so
judgemental about other's people's tastes in climbing John. Climbing
doesn't have to be about danger, pushing yourself to the limit in the
face of consequences, or about anything at all. It can be, but to each
his or her own.

Climbing can be like making love. Performance is a secondary aspect if
you appreciate the intimacy of what you are doing. Melissa seems pretty
goal oriented so maybe your advice is appropriate but not climbing with
her boyfriend since he's too good is no way to live in my opinion. Do
whatever you feel like! Us Californicators say. When you feel up to
challenges, solos, R rated routes..go for it. When you feel like
pushing the difficulty with a rope gun..Great. It will teach your mind
what the next level is like so you're ready for it as you progress
towards it. Wanna do that 5.7 multipitch for the 6th time and have a
picnic on top. Why not?

Peace

Karl

--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/

Jason Liebgott

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 2:28:13 AM8/19/02
to
"Nate B" wrote ...
> "Dingus Milktoast" said...

>
> > So I guess what I'm saying is it's all good in the end.
>
> Indeed. Few with an ambition to become good climbers are going to spend all
> their days seconding.

Reminds me of a song lyric from U2 - "ambition bites the nails of
success"

I have ambition to become a reasonable climber, but the lines between
ambition and execution often get fuzzy when I eat my way out of shape
and I have a stronger partner. That's why I seriously look to taking
physically strong climbers out, that don't know how to lead! If they
can follow 5.10 - then here's the mule pack and we'll have lots of
fun. Just don't ask me how to place these cam things because once they
know, knowledge is that dreaded freedom.

Once I have a partner who's a better leader, I turn into a big
chicken. "Errr, looks grim. My leg seems to be cramping, you better
take this one too."

j.

Mad Dog

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 5:54:00 AM8/19/02
to
jlie...@hotmail.com says...

>Once I have a partner who's a better leader, I turn into a big
>chicken. "Errr, looks grim. My leg seems to be cramping, you better
>take this one too."

I don't think that approach works all that often. I've had numerous partners
that are stronger and/or bolder than me shy away from a lead for one reason or
the other. Just last month one of my old buddies that is probably two full
number grades stronger than I asked me to be the rope gun because he was tired,
having just come off a hard 4 days of climbing.

Lord Slime

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 11:00:06 AM8/19/02
to
"Karl Baba" <gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote in message

> In article <3d5fd606$0$182$7586...@news.frii.net>, Lord Slime
> > Following a ropegun won't improve your leading speed.
>
> This is not true. In order to push your climbing speed, it is very
> helpful to go faster in situations where it's safe to push the limits
> and beyond, i.e. following/top-rope. Then you know what it feels like
> to climb at a faster rate and you can apply it to leading as well.

Okay, I agree in the general case, but only when the climber is a
well-established leader already. But I don't think that's Melissa's
problem. I think that leading isn't "automatic" for her, and she needs
to do more of it before focusing on speed.

> > > 3. Routes that will be fun to thrutch up, but that will be out of my reach
> > > for some time to come.
> > Save 'em for later.
> > It's a quite different situation when you've got a rope-gun along. If you
> > fail on a pitch, he can do it. If you get tired and slow, he'll get you
> > off the route before dark. He's there to rely on, thus you aren't relying
> > on yourself. Scotty is always there to "beam you up".

> > It's obvious the DNB means/meant a lot to you. Now that you've followed
> > the whole thing there's NO WAY you'll get the same reward repeating it,
> > even if you lead the whole thing, as you'd get if you had led/swung leads
> > on your onsight attempt. That's why onsighting a route is the most coveted
> > style of ascent.
> > So perhaps you should set aside many, many climbs that you want to be
> > able to lead onsight until you have a good shot at leading them.
>

> Between this and the "speed" thread, I'm dissappointed to see you so
> judgemental about other's people's tastes in climbing John.

Wait a minute Karl, the speed thread was/is very interesting for me
(and obviously others) to explore my feelings about 'speed' climbing.
As I said, I found myself being sucked into its vortex without my
consent or realization of what was going on. And isn't this what you
mean (below) about "to each his or her own?"

> Climbing
> doesn't have to be about danger, pushing yourself to the limit in the
> face of consequences, or about anything at all. It can be, but to each

> his or her own. Performance is a secondary aspect if


> you appreciate the intimacy of what you are doing.

I am only a mirror. Mellissa is obviously disappointed in her
performance on the DNB. She wants to "up the ante" to improve
her performance and asked advice. I'm only providing my opinion.

> Melissa seems pretty
> goal oriented so maybe your advice is appropriate but not climbing with
> her boyfriend since he's too good is no way to live in my opinion.

Well, I may have overstated it. She can climb with him, just not on any
route that she has on her "Ambition" list. If she climbs these routes with
him and feels let down the way she does about the DNB, then she's not
getting what she needs from climbing.

> Do
> whatever you feel like! Us Californicators say. When you feel up to
> challenges, solos, R rated routes..go for it. When you feel like
> pushing the difficulty with a rope gun..Great. It will teach your mind
> what the next level is like so you're ready for it as you progress
> towards it.

Sorry Karl, but I totally disagree in Melissa's case. Let me give you
an example: A certain "How to Climb" author had a girlfriend
and they climbed together a lot. At the beginning they would go on
easier routes so that she could do some leading, but as time went on
the routes got harder and harder, and she did less, less and then no
leading.

By the time I started climbing with her, she could follow a 5.11 crack
in the blink of an eye. But put her on a 5.6/7 lead, and she'd be as
slow as molasses in January. Couldn't route-find, place gear, or do
the planning required without taking forever. She didn't see the
vortex until she was in the bottom of it.

So sure, Mellissa can do whatever she feels like, but it's obvious to
me where she wants to go with her climbing, so I'm trying to help her
on her way.

- Lord Slime

A.M.

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 2:46:33 PM8/19/02
to
"Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in message news:<3d5d3248$0$188$7586...@news.frii.net>...

> Get out from under the wing of your boyfriend. Go do some climbs
> at your limit where *you* are the stronger climber of the two. Be the
> leader on the rock. Take the responsibility for the team's success
> on the route.
>
> I think this may up the ante more than following a rope-gun around.

I think there are advantages to both modes. When I climb with my main
partner, he often leads hard 10's, 11's, and if he's on his game,
12a's. Following him up these routes, watching him move, looking at
his pro, all helps me in my development as a leader. But just
following him won't improve me. So I try to get on the hard 10's
myself and give it a whiff. His encouragement often helps me to the
top, and if I feel I can't finish the climb I just come down and watch
him finish it right.

But John is right about being the leader sometimes. I go out with
other climbers who don't lead at my level, and I get a chance to do
the bulk of the work. I think this also helps me. Plus, being the
"leader" I feel more compelled to finish a route, to give the roof one
last try, and to climb more confidently and aggressively because I
know that if I fail I can't just come down and get my partner to do it
for me. There's an element of self-reliance there.

A.M.

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 3:06:17 PM8/19/02
to
Mad Dog <mad6...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<ajqf7...@drn.newsguy.com>...

> I don't think that approach works all that often. I've had numerous partners
> that are stronger and/or bolder than me shy away from a lead for one reason or
> the other. Just last month one of my old buddies that is probably two full
> number grades stronger than I asked me to be the rope gun because he was tired,
> having just come off a hard 4 days of climbing.

Good point. Sometimes your (better) partner might be having an off-day
physically or (more likely) psychologically. A while ago I was trying
to lead a scary 5.10? with some awkward face moves on a 15 foot runout
to a single piton. There was a small tree on route and I repeatedly
grabbed it as I was making the crux moves. My partner called out "Hey,
we climb rocks not trees!" I backed down again and again and finally
let my more skilled partner take the lead. After some hesitation, he
led the crux (and grabbed the tree much to my delight). When he
reached the piton he clipped it and went to take a seat after the
strenuous moves. The ancient piton literally disintegrated before his
eyes. Not losing his footing, he managed to stay on the rock, and
finish the sick runout pitch. When I reached his stance he was very
shaken up, and did not want to continue the route, which required a
traverse out onto a face and a small overhang move, probably no more
than a 5.8. I was happy to volunteer for the job, and finished the
route. He was very upset with himself for his temporary breakdown
after the piton incident. For the rest of the day he did not want to
lead. Next time out, however, he fearlessly led some heinous routes
with calm and poise. We all have our moments where we lose our self
control, but the ability to bounce back and get on the sharp end is
something I think a lot of us have been through.

Karl Baba

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 6:11:02 PM8/19/02
to
Snip

Karl:


> > Between this and the "speed" thread, I'm dissappointed to see you so
> > judgemental about other's people's tastes in climbing John.

> Wait a minute Karl, the speed thread was/is very interesting for me
> (and obviously others) to explore my feelings about 'speed' climbing.
> As I said, I found myself being sucked into its vortex without my
> consent or realization of what was going on. And isn't this what you
> mean (below) about "to each his or her own?"

I must have got hung up when I read this sentence when you started the
thread (which was a nice thread BTW)

"It seems to me that these speed climbers were just bored and
created a new game in which to compete and make their
names known."

as for the rest of your advice. I accept it as a valid opinion to
express to Melissa, whether I agree fully or not. It just seemed to
contain judgements that were broadly expressed to be generalizations
for all climbers. If you don't mean it that way, I must have been
overly sensitive.

Peace

karl

Lg

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 10:26:14 PM8/19/02
to
Karl Baba <gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote in message news:<180820022042060536%gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com>...

> Lots of snips
>
> > Following a ropegun won't improve your leading speed.
>
> This is not true. In order to push your climbing speed, it is very
> helpful to go faster in situations where it's safe to push the limits
> and beyond, i.e. following/top-rope. Then you know what it feels like
> to climb at a faster rate and you can apply it to leading as well.

I think following can be more beneficial to improving one's leading
speed. (ie. belay transitions, cleaning/racking gear, rope management)
than TRing. TRing will help more with technique and ability and both
will ultimately aid in improving one's leading speed. But neither will
help more than a lot of sharp end time, anything else is simply
simulation. And I think with this method, the leader needs to be
leading stuff that they can cruise on to funnel all aspects of the
game in one fluid motion. Bringing it all together, so to speak. Start
low and work your way up.

> Between this and the "speed" thread, I'm dissappointed to see you so
> judgemental about other's people's tastes in climbing John. Climbing
> doesn't have to be about danger, pushing yourself to the limit in the
> face of consequences, or about anything at all. It can be, but to each
> his or her own.

"Climbers know a lot about the edge, . . Not on, and certainly not
over. Close is close enough. And you are the only one who knows, for
you, for your next move, how close is close enough.

The edge is where evolution happens. 5.15 and V15 are only part of
it&#8212;the most obvious part. Most of us aren&#8217;t close enough
to that evolving edge to peek over, into the unknown that will become
the future. But evolution edges both ways: not only the growth of our
don&#8217;t-call-it-a-sport, but our own development as climbers. Each
of us.

Every step toward the edge adds adventure. Nobody said this would be
easy. You&#8217;ll know. One day it might be sport climbing so sporty
that you&#8217;re holding on too hard to stop and clip, the next only
slabby 5.8 but way runout and scary. Or mixed 5.9 in crampons.
Boldness and commitment are staging a comeback. Like offwidth, you
just can&#8217;t scare them away. Make that poised commitment, though,
not reckless. You gotta come home healthy, or everyone loses. Pushing
it on a regular basis trains your whole adrenal response system,
tuning it up toward true grace under pressure." Doug Robinson

I think this last line emphasizes the need to lead to improve speed.
The difference in your system when following and leading are huge.



> Climbing can be like making love. Performance is a secondary aspect if
> you appreciate the intimacy of what you are doing. Melissa seems pretty
> goal oriented so maybe your advice is appropriate but not climbing with
> her boyfriend since he's too good is no way to live in my opinion. Do
> whatever you feel like! Us Californicators say. When you feel up to
> challenges, solos, R rated routes..go for it. When you feel like
> pushing the difficulty with a rope gun..Great. It will teach your mind
> what the next level is like so you're ready for it as you progress
> towards it. Wanna do that 5.7 multipitch for the 6th time and have a
> picnic on top. Why not?
>
> Peace
>
> Karl

And I think most of us agree with this last paragraph, except that in
the interest of progression there are some of us that want it so bad
even if it means not climbing with the one we'd like to most. Relating
to Melissa's situation, J is to her what I am to Jessica. Except
Jessica doesn't lead and is perfectly content climbing only with me,
which she has now for a year. She's progressed from following 5.6's at
Red Rocks to solid 8's in the Valley. But the only area I improve in
is becoming a better guide, which is great for me, she has helped me
tremendously. But the only way I've ever progressed as a stronger
leader was to climb with different partners at or above my level.
Diversity is key. If you climb with the same partner, even if ideal,
you may become stale in your progression. Mixing it up will increase
your skills by learning more from different partners. Changing areas
is recommended again also. B stealth~

Lg

Christian :?

unread,
Aug 19, 2002, 11:51:05 PM8/19/02
to
"Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in message news:<3d6109ba$0$188$7586...@news.frii.net>...

> "Karl Baba" <gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote in message

<snip nice dad like advice from both>

Oh, how rough it must be to have to deciede this complex moral dillema!

His 12's or her 10's?

Makes me wanna cry ;?)

Christian :?)
"saving both the DNB and D7"

Melissa

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 1:39:33 PM8/20/02
to

cj...@my-deja.com (Christian :?) wrote:

>Oh, how rough it must be to have to deciede this complex moral dillema!
>
>His 12's or her 10's?
>
>Makes me wanna cry ;?)
>
>Christian :?)
>"saving both the DNB and D7"

FWIW...I still have more fingers than 5.10 leads in the valley. The pitches
on the DNB that were kicking my arse were all rated between 5.6 and 5.8.

Melissa
"'saving' the 5.10's...yeah, that's the ticket."

Melissa

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 3:51:27 PM8/20/02
to

This is a bit of a composite response to the whole discussion.

I wanted to thank everyone for all of the advice. If it is not clear from
the points that I'm picking to debate, I found a lot of value in all of the
different points of view, and it is a balance between them that I hope to
find. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their ideas.

Lg wrote:

>In the interest of progression there are some of us that want it so


>bad even if it means not climbing with the one we'd like to most.

During the 1st week of classes in my 2nd year of grad school a reporter from
the school paper came around the courtyard at lunch to ask us if we had any
advice for the new students. My friend (who desperately needed take her
own advice) said, "Don't let your ambition get in the way of your happiness."

When her picture came out on the cover of the paper with this little quote,
our boss stealthly cut it out, rearranging it to read, "Don't let your happiness
get in the way of your ambition," and hung it on the lab door.

I remember this because "Don't let your happiness get in the way of your
ambition" really was the mantra of most of the folks back there. My boss
was one of their youngest hires and got tenure faster than any professor
ever has. My lab mates had higher profile publications in their first few
years than some people will ever see in their lifetimes. And it was the
most miserable place full of the most oppressed-acting people that I've ever
been forced to endure.

Climbing entered my life about the time that I decided that I was going to
put happiness in front of ambition and do my best to keep the two from becoming
mutually exclusive. In order to pursue climbing, I started regularly leaving
lab behind in the evenings and on the weekends, something that I had not
done in years. I had a renewed excitement for my life. I had a new set
of goals, and in their pursuit I was finding incredible happiness.

Climbing was bringing me joy so I wanted to do it all the time. Although
I've spent years of my life to finish my education and start a career, it
all seemed small compared to what I was getting from climbing. I seriously
considered paying off my schoold debts as quickly as possible so that I could
move into my truck and climb full time.

However as bewitched as I have become with climbing, I also ahve a sense
that becoming as obsessive about it as I had been my research would probably
eventually leave me with the same feelings that happen when life gets so
out of balance: My self esteem would hinge on this one thing that I'd granted
absolute importance, and feelings of emptiness would arise due to the large
neglected portions of my life.

Being the follower all of the time is an extreme to avoid. So is being the
leader all of time, or even leading or following all the time. Nice dinners,
dancing lessons, old friends, family, work obligations, creature comforts,
kitties...they're all part of the equation for me too.

Maybe this seems beside the point of the 'to follow or not follow while learning'
debate, but I say it because in my intensity to learn I feel like I was putting
life on hold: My place was often a squalid sty, work was backlogged and
growing impatient, my family saw me rarely because climbing was getting my
vacation time, for the first time in my life I quit dancing, I wouldn't climb
with friends becasue their abilities somehow did not suit my goals. Maybe
I have progressed faster for having made these choices, but I am certainly
no happier.

Climbing is for me a hobby and a spiritual pursuit. My hobbies should make
me happy. My spirituality should bring me peace. If one day I find goal
of becoming a better climber at odds with my peace and happinesss, I feel
that right choice for me will be to accept myself as one who finds joy in
climbing at the level at which I climb. It may be easier said than done,
but I feel certain that for me it is the right way.

Being ambitious about my own climbing goals can be indescribably satisfying.
However, if in the name of ambition, I gave up the amazing days that I have
spent finding love with someone in places that to him are holy, then I feel
that I will have let myself down in a profound way.

Melissa

Paulina

unread,
Aug 20, 2002, 4:39:16 PM8/20/02
to
Melissa wrote:

<snip>

> Climbing is for me a hobby and a spiritual pursuit. My hobbies should make
> me happy. My spirituality should bring me peace.

<snip>

Hi Melissa,

Thank you for summing it up so nicely. And for the parallel with research. Much
happier now, looking at the sun out my window. Best of luck in all your pursuits.

Paulina

Keith Sharp

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 5:35:33 PM8/21/02
to
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d629dbf$1...@eCompute.org>...

Nice dinners,
> dancing lessons, old friends, family, work obligations, creature comforts,
> kitties...they're all part of the equation for me too.
>
I was so in awe of your insight up until you mentioned cats! That
aside, seems like you are introspective enough to make your own good
choices. I would like to stand up for motivated researchers, however.
Not all are ambitious for pure accomplishment's sake. Some want to
make a difference in the world, like keeping people healthier or
saving the environment. Accomplishments in climbing, for the most
part, are pretty useless to society compared to a new treatment for
cancer or a safer, more fuel efficient car. If you derive any
happiness from helping others, then this implies a different balance
of priorities. On the other hand, there are many popular activities
that are much more consumptive and detrimental to the environment than
climbing, but that is a different discussion.

Cheers,
Keith

Nate B

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 5:55:30 PM8/21/02
to

"Keith Sharp"

> Some want to make a difference in the world, like

> keeping people healthier [...]

I used to think this until I realized it ultimately would result in more
traffic on my way to work, and climbing. Heck - I might even be saving one
of the many child molesters currently in the news. Now I just want to take
my little share of the pie and get away. Isn't this a big part of
climbing - selfishness and individuality?

- Nate

Melissa

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 7:09:08 PM8/21/02
to

I may well have had a more positive impact on the lives the people whom I
have taken climbing for the first time than my research will ever have on
anyone besides myself. That's the hedged crapshoot of biomedical research.
If only a positive outcome will make you happy then you are an odds-on favorite
for the life of misery of which I wrote.

I agree that most folks go into these fields for altruistic reasons, but
at the end of the day you are living your life for yourself and not the masses
whose health you are toiling to preserve. If you don't like your day to
day existence, then the hope of reaching some great goal is not going to
be enough to make you happy. Not in research, not in climbing, not in relationships,
not in anything.

Melissa

Andy Gale

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 7:31:10 PM8/21/02
to

Melissa wrote:

If you don't like your day to
> day existence, then the hope of reaching some great goal is not going to
> be enough to make you happy. Not in research, not in climbing, not in relationships,
> not in anything.


Sounds like one of the two great lessons of Communism.

Andy


Melissa

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 7:47:08 PM8/21/02
to

Do you mean the lessons learned from its failure?

What was the other lesson?

Melissa

A. Cairns

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 7:54:55 PM8/21/02
to

Melissa wrote:

<the grim but altruistic life of the researcher>

I'll put in an oar with Keith in favor of motivated academics, but not because they might
want to make the world a better place. Often they really care only about the half-dozen
people in the world they consider to be peers. But the big goal in research is finding
something new and significant. This is so rewarding that other motivations pale. It's rarely
accomplished, of course, but can be sensed along the way, because you have to carefully study
the path others have taken before.

One of the names in the r.c. memorial FAQ is Tim Mutch. He was a geology prof. On a field
trip for an undergrad course I thought the rock looked like the Gunks, but he said, no, the
Gunks are Silurian quartzite and had I climbed there? He had been a very keen climber and
said he had chosen geology to turn that interest into a career. Although as a hard-working
academic he had pretty much given up climbing, he found his work very exciting. He was in
charge of the team that developed the camera for the first Martian lander. He said, "You can
only land on Mars for the first time once."

Personally, I'd side with Melissa and take the sure thing over the long shot. When it comes
to happiness, climbing is like shooting fish in a barrel. I do admire the
smart/hard-working/lucky researcher but I'll just look over their shoulder the way I just
read books about the big mountains.

Andy Cairns

Andy Gale

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 8:21:44 PM8/21/02
to

Melissa wrote:

> Andy Gale <ag...@NOSPAM.edu> wrote:

>
>>Sounds like one of the two great lessons of Communism.
>>
>
> Do you mean the lessons learned from its failure?


:^) Yes.


>
> What was the other lesson?


You see. I just knew someone would have to ask. Obviously it is "never
get involved in a land war in Asia!"

;^)


Andy

Fern

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 8:37:54 PM8/21/02
to
Andy Gale wrote:

> You see. I just knew someone would have to ask. Obviously it is "never
> get involved in a land war in Asia!"

But only slightly less well known is this: "Never
go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line."

->f

Mike Garrison

unread,
Aug 21, 2002, 9:24:42 PM8/21/02
to

By the way, anybody know who made the FFA of The Cliffs Of
Insanity?

-Mike

Brutus of Wyde

unread,
Aug 22, 2002, 2:44:46 PM8/22/02
to
"Dingus Milktoast"

> On each outing with Brutus I suffered all the encompassing doubts I
> mentioned above. I found the courage to lead some pitches (some days better
> than others) and found the chicken-nitis to follow plenty more.

Sandbagger.

Melissa

unread,
Aug 22, 2002, 3:14:48 PM8/22/02
to

"A. Cairns" <lek...@intergate.ca> wrote:

>Melissa wrote:

><the grim but altruistic life of the researcher>

>I'll put in an oar with Keith in favor of motivated academics, but
>not because they might
>want to make the world a better place. Often they really care only
>about the half-dozen
>people in the world they consider to be peers. But the big goal
>in research is finding
>something new and significant.

My intent was not to dis basic science or the goals that motivate it as basic
science, albeit privately funded, continues to be my bread and butter. I'm
just saying that if you don't like your day to day existence, the big goal
is not going to be enough to make anyone happy. Unfortunately, I know a
lot of really unhappy people who try to tell themself otherwise. Fortunately,
there are also a lot of people that dig the goal and their day-to-day. It
sounds like your friend was one of these people who loved the life and the
goal.

Melissa

Keith Sharp

unread,
Aug 22, 2002, 7:35:07 PM8/22/02
to
"Melissa" <iamthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d641d94$1...@eCompute.org>...

> If only a positive outcome will make you happy then you are an odds-on favorite
> for the life of misery of which I wrote.

Knowledge comes from negative results as well. Thomas Edison's
countless failed attempts in perfecting the light bulb make this point
well. Furthermore, while the accomplishment may be what is recorded
and remembered by society, it is the dream, realized or not, that
defines a big part of life.


>
> I agree that most folks go into these fields for altruistic reasons, but
> at the end of the day you are living your life for yourself and not the masses
> whose health you are toiling to preserve. If you don't like your day to
> day existence, then the hope of reaching some great goal is not going to
> be enough to make you happy.

Home runs like Newton's or Einstein's don't come along every day, but
how can one get enough short term gratification to live a happy life
without a dream to define it? How did Nelsen Mandella live all those
years in prison if not for a dream? How did the pilgrims survive the
trip from Europe if not for the hope of a better life? It's a matter
of balance. Have some fun when you need to, and be good to family and
friends, but never give up on your dreams. God, I sound like a
puritanical Shirley Temple, but that's what I think.

Cheers and dreams (in balance),
Keith

A. Cairns

unread,
Aug 23, 2002, 10:01:53 AM8/23/02
to

Keith Sharp wrote:

> How did Nelsen Mandella live all those
> years in prison if not for a dream?

And although he spent all those years with a pretty good view of Table Mt., why does he
mention it only once in his book?

Clint Cummins

unread,
Aug 26, 2002, 4:06:32 AM8/26/02
to
Karl Baba <gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote:
>...
>BTW, the DNB has a 5.10 variation to the first two pitches that is less
>physical suffering.
Or just a 5.8 variation to right of the first pitch will avoid
that initial flaring chimney. See the topo for the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

Clint Cummins

Dingus Milktoast

unread,
Aug 26, 2002, 11:00:57 AM8/26/02
to

"Clint Cummins" <cl...@Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:akcni8$bv6$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...

I've stemmed that flair a couple of times... no physical suffering at all.
Mental anguish aplenty when it comes to pro however.

DMT


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