Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Dr Strange inspired by THE RAVEN (1963)?

49 views
Skip to first unread message

Dr Hermes

unread,
Oct 26, 2002, 3:59:46 PM10/26/02
to

I imagine this has occurred to many others before, but watching the
Roger Corman film THE RAVEN, the similarities to the first few Dr
Strange strips seem very suggestive. Rival wizards duelling with hand
gestures and beams of lights, levitation, castles and cloaks. Boris
Karloff as the inspiraton for Mordo seems possible and Vincent Price
could easily have been used as the model for Strange (although as first,
Steve Ditko gave him an exotic, vaguely Asian look).

The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being early
enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to create Dr
Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about being
influenced by the movie?


~~~~~~~~~~
DR HERMES REVIEWS: Doc Savage, Fu Manchu, the Avenger and much more at

http://community.webtv.net/drhermes/ForbiddenKnowledge

Menshevik

unread,
Oct 27, 2002, 4:29:42 AM10/27/02
to
> I imagine this has occurred to many others before, but watching the
>Roger Corman film THE RAVEN, the similarities to the first few Dr
>Strange strips seem very suggestive. Rival wizards duelling with hand
>gestures and beams of lights, levitation, castles and cloaks. Boris
>Karloff as the inspiraton for Mordo seems possible and Vincent Price
>could easily have been used as the model for Strange (although as first,
>Steve Ditko gave him an exotic, vaguely Asian look).
>
> The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being early
>enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to create Dr
>Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about being
>influenced by the movie?

Doubtful. Dr. Strange made his first appearance pretty
early in 1963 (Strange Tale #110, cover-dated July, which means
it must have hit the newsstands by May at the latest, IIRC, and
have been plotted and drawn by early spring or even late
winter), probably too early to have been affected by
"The Raven". Also, it has to be born in mind that "The Raven" was
already a parody of other films, pulp novels on supernatural
themes (besides the works of Poe, obviously) and that Vincent
Price (and Boris Karloff for that matter, although I don't see
the resemblance myself) had long been associated with
that kind of material.
Ditko is of course notoriously close-lipped, but Stan Lee mentions
an old Mutual radio show, "Chandu the Magician", to which he listened
as a kid, as a source of inspiration for Dr. Strange in "Origins
of Marvel Comics".

Tilman


"Who wants to read something about this subject will find it in a book, the
title of which I've forgotten. But it's the 42nd chapter."
Professor Johann Georg August Galletti (1750-1828)

Dave Clark

unread,
Oct 27, 2002, 2:39:03 PM10/27/02
to

"Dr Hermes" <drhe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9026-3DB...@storefull-2157.public.lawson.webtv.net...

>
> I imagine this has occurred to many others before, but
watching the
> Roger Corman film THE RAVEN, the similarities to the first few
Dr
> Strange strips seem very suggestive. Rival wizards duelling
with hand
> gestures and beams of lights, levitation, castles and cloaks.
Boris
> Karloff as the inspiraton for Mordo seems possible and Vincent
Price
> could easily have been used as the model for Strange (although
as first,
> Steve Ditko gave him an exotic, vaguely Asian look).
>
> The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being
early
> enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to
create Dr
> Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about
being
> influenced by the movie?

The Raven is dated 1963 in all my books. Dr Strange started in
1963, didn't it? If so, then the answer is a firm no, as that
would be the year the film was made. Usually the films reach the
cinemas about a year later. If the comic started in early 63 and
the film was made quickly in late 63, it could, just, be the
other way round.

Then again -- wasn't there a gap between the first two Dr Strange
stories? Maybe the whole Mordo, duel with flashing lights and
gestures, and so on, came into it after the film.

I'm looking at a still from that film, which I've never seen,
right now, Karloff and
Price facing each other. There's quite a resemblance with the
comics. Most of it, reading a synopsis of the film's plot, just
comes down to artwork and design.

Dave Clark

unread,
Oct 27, 2002, 2:42:08 PM10/27/02
to

"Dr Hermes" <drhe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9026-3DB...@storefull-2157.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>
> I imagine this has occurred to many others before, but
watching the
> Roger Corman film THE RAVEN, the similarities to the first few
Dr
> Strange strips seem very suggestive. Rival wizards duelling
with hand
> gestures and beams of lights, levitation, castles and cloaks.
Boris
> Karloff as the inspiraton for Mordo seems possible and Vincent
Price
> could easily have been used as the model for Strange (although
as first,
> Steve Ditko gave him an exotic, vaguely Asian look).
>
> The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being
early
> enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to
create Dr
> Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about
being
> influenced by the movie?

The Raven is dated 1963 in all my books. Dr Strange started in


1963, didn't it? If so, then the answer is a firm no, as that
would be the year the film was made. Usually the films reach the
cinemas about a year later. If the comic started in early 63 and
the film was made quickly in late 63, it could, just, be the
other way round.

Then again -- wasn't there a gap between the first two Dr Strange
stories? Maybe the whole Mordo, duel with flashing lights and
gestures, and so on, came into it after the film.

I'm looking at a still from that film, which I've never seen,
right now, Karloff and
Price facing each other. There's quite a resemblance with the
comics. Most of it, reading a synopsis of the film's plot, just
comes down to artwork and design.

>
>

Richard

unread,
Oct 27, 2002, 8:06:06 PM10/27/02
to

"Menshevik" <mens...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021027042942...@mb-fx.aol.com...

> > I imagine this has occurred to many others before, but watching the
> >Roger Corman film THE RAVEN, the similarities to the first few Dr
> >Strange strips seem very suggestive. Rival wizards duelling with hand
> >gestures and beams of lights, levitation, castles and cloaks. Boris
> >Karloff as the inspiraton for Mordo seems possible and Vincent Price
> >could easily have been used as the model for Strange (although as first,
> >Steve Ditko gave him an exotic, vaguely Asian look).
> >
> > The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being early
> >enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to create Dr
> >Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about being
> >influenced by the movie?
>
> Doubtful. Dr. Strange made his first appearance pretty
> early in 1963 (Strange Tale #110, cover-dated July, which means
> it must have hit the newsstands by May at the latest, IIRC, and
> have been plotted and drawn by early spring or even late
> winter), probably too early to have been affected by
> "The Raven".

While I personally doubt there is a connection, the internet
movie database (www.imdb.com) states that "the Raven"
opened on January 25, 1963, so it is at least marginally
possible that Lee and Ditko were influenced by the film.

Richard


BlakGard

unread,
Oct 29, 2002, 3:15:12 PM10/29/02
to
>>The only problem might be the release date of THE RAVEN being
>>early enough for Lee and Ditko to have seen it and then have time to
>>create Dr Strange. Has anyone ever read anything from those two about
>>being influenced by the movie?
>
>The Raven is dated 1963 in all my books. Dr Strange started in
>1963, didn't it? If so, then the answer is a firm no, as that
>would be the year the film was made. Usually the films reach the
>cinemas about a year later. If the comic started in early 63 and
>the film was made quickly in late 63, it could, just, be the
>other way round.

The date on films is typically the date of release, not the date they
start filming. Mind you, I still think the answer is a firm no for the
reasons stated in this thread (more influenced by related pulp fiction
of the time, etc.: Chandu, and also the Shadow had a somewhat
similar origin -- the Tibetan link).

-=[ The BlakGard ]=-
"Somewhere there's danger;
somewhere there's injustice,
and somewhere else the tea is getting cold!"

The Living Tribunal

unread,
Nov 10, 2002, 11:23:38 PM11/10/02
to

"Menshevik" <mens...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021027042942...@mb-fx.aol.com...
> > > Ditko is of course notoriously close-lipped, but Stan Lee mentions
> an old Mutual radio show, "Chandu the Magician", to which he listened
> as a kid, as a source of inspiration for Dr. Strange in "Origins
> of Marvel Comics".
>
> Tilman
>

That is who I was trying to remember thanks!


The Living Tribunal

unread,
Nov 10, 2002, 11:22:18 PM11/10/02
to
Actually if you read about Strange's origins, the Stan got the idea from a
radio program he used to listen to growing up.

"Dr Hermes" <drhe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:9026-3DB...@storefull-2157.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>

The Living Tribunal

unread,
Nov 20, 2002, 2:01:40 AM11/20/02
to
Ditko was tight lipped about his relationship with Lee, because they didn't
get along with him. That is why he quit. That is why Kirby quit and went
to work for DC. Roy Thomas goes into detail in several interviews about the
problems people had with Lee's egoticism and self-centeredness.

"Menshevik" <mens...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021027042942...@mb-fx.aol.com...

kingalt

unread,
Nov 21, 2002, 8:17:02 AM11/21/02
to

"The Living Tribunal" <Ju...@oftheMultiverse.uni> wrote in message
news:8secnd6_KPH...@comcast.com...

> Ditko was tight lipped about his relationship with Lee, because they
didn't
> get along with him. That is why he quit. That is why Kirby quit and went
> to work for DC. Roy Thomas goes into detail in several interviews about
the
> problems people had with Lee's egoticism and self-centeredness.
>
>

Aw, give the guy a break. He seems cool to me.


DomDawes

unread,
Nov 21, 2002, 3:06:08 PM11/21/02
to
Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
<< As a pubblisher Stan was interested in what sold, as artists go...they care
about their work, without consideration for the financial side of the equation.
>>

Stan was the editor. Martin Goodman was the publisher.
Stan AND Steve worked for Martin. Martin had final say.

D

PeterDoug72

unread,
Nov 21, 2002, 3:14:01 PM11/21/02
to
"Seems" being the key word there

ANIM8Rfsk

unread,
Nov 21, 2002, 4:40:57 PM11/21/02
to
<< From: "The Living Tribunal" Ju...@oftheMultiverse.uni >>


<< Ditko was tight lipped about his relationship with Lee, because they didn't
get along with him. That is why he quit. >>

How do YOU know why Ditko quit, when NOBODY but Ditko really knows?

DomDawes

unread,
Nov 22, 2002, 10:12:57 AM11/22/02
to
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:06:08 -0500, DomDawes wrote:
Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
As a pubblisher Stan was interested in what sold, as artists go...they care
about their work, without consideration for the financial side of the equation.

DomDawes replied...

Stan was the editor. Martin Goodman was the publisher.
Stan AND Steve worked for Martin. Martin had final say.

Scarle...@kjdsak.com retorts...
And?
You have totally missed my point, artists needs VS financial needs.

And you, kid, missed my point.
Stan (as Editor, not Publisher) was driven primarily by artistic
considerations. He was willing to take risks (like defying the Comics Code)
that the publisher objected to.
His job was to get the books out on time, no matter what. (Not like today's
Marvel.) Sometimes that meant pushing writers and artists to their limits, but
they always came thru. (Another thing you can't say about Marvel today.)

Martin Goodman (as Publisher, which you mistakenly said Stan was...) was the
one driven by the fiscal bottom line.

D

DomDawes

unread,
Nov 22, 2002, 5:03:51 PM11/22/02
to
Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez..
Again you missed the point,
an artist has a unique view of his/her own work, as their own baby, the fruit
of their work, as they own it.
A pubblisher or an editors do not, the editor job is to get the books out and
balance between the artists and the pubblisher.
The editor positions is quite diferent from the artist.
It is pointless to blame Stan for doing his job or because artists at large
(as I have often experience first hand) have no clue to the financial reality
of business life.

Again, YOU missed the point.
In terms of "business life"...
Comics until recently, were considered commercial art. Artists did the job by
deadline, or they don't get paid.
Artists did the job to the client's/editor's (NOT the artist's) satisfaction,
or they don't get paid.
Artists bowed to the editor's whim. The best editors, like Lee and Julie
Schwartz, knew how to get the best possible work out of their artists, who may
have grumbled, but did what the editor wanted.
In advertising it's STILL like that.
You think ad agencies would put up with the lack of discipline comics artists
display?

In comics, with the prima donnas running around who aren't worthy to polish
Jack Kirby's headstone, it's gone from monthly commercial art to occasional
"artistic" masturbation.

On a side note...
Steve Ditko worked for every publisher at one point or another.
He knew the rules going in and played by them.
When he left Marvel (Foe whatever reasons, asn Steve ain't talking), he had a
steady stream of work from several publishers including Charlton, Tower and DC.
He rarely (if ever) missed deadlines and bailed out others who would have
missed them otherwise.
He still delivers what he promises, when he promises it.
Name a fan-favorite today who can do THAT!

D

DomDawes

unread,
Nov 23, 2002, 3:03:31 AM11/23/02
to
<< On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:03:51 -0500, DomDawes wrote

Again, YOU missed the point.
In terms of "business life"...
Comics until recently, were considered commercial art. Artists did the job by
deadline, or they don't get paid.
Artists did the job to the client's/editor's (NOT the artist's) satisfaction,
or they don't get paid.

Scarle...@kjdsak.com
Correct, but with a lots of complaining from the artists side.

Everybody complains about their job. So...?

DomDawes continues...


Artists bowed to the editor's whim. The best editors, like Lee and Julie
Schwartz, knew how to get the best possible work out of their artists, who may
have grumbled, but did what the editor wanted.

Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
Most of the times, not always or they would not have left Marvel.

Even if they were offered more money?

DomDawes continues...


In advertising it's STILL like that.
You think ad agencies would put up with the lack of discipline comics artists
display?

Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
No I don't put up with it, as you should know if you had read my previous post.

First wise thing you've said.

DomDawes continues...


On a side note...
Steve Ditko worked for every publisher at one point or another.
He knew the rules going in and played by them.

When he left Marvel (For whatever reasons, and Steve ain't talking), he had a


steady stream of work from several publishers including Charlton, Tower and
DC.
He rarely (if ever) missed deadlines and bailed out others who would have
missed them otherwise.
He still delivers what he promises, when he promises it.
Name a fan-favorite today who can do THAT!

Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
You don't know that, you are making assumptions, only the people present at the
time know what really happen.

Wrong. I'm going by...
1) examples of Ditko's work I see before me. Everything from The Creeper and
Blue Beetle to Get Smart and NoMan and his own Mr. A. Ditko's done a LOT of
non-Marvel work.
2) One of my friends is an art director who worked with Ditko at several
companies including Topps and Defiant. He considers Ditko one of the most
talented and professional artists he's ever worked with.

And, by the way, you still haven't named a fan-favorite who rarely (if ever)
misses deadlines and bails out others who would have missed them otherwise, and
delivers what he promises, when he promises, the way Ditko does.

D

DomDawes

unread,
Nov 23, 2002, 9:48:41 PM11/23/02
to
DomDawes wrote

Wrong. I'm going by...
1) examples of Ditko's work I see before me. Everything from The Creeper and
Blue Beetle to Get Smart and NoMan and his own Mr. A. Ditko's done a LOT of
non-Marvel work.

Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
and it doesn't tell you anything about what really happen at the time

It shows that Ditko was NOT lacking for work after he left Marvel of his own
accord.
He didn't return to Marvel until the 80s because he chose not to.
The door was always open to him.
When he did return, it was on his terms (He didn't want to work on either
Spidey or Dr. Strange in ANY capacity.) which Marvel agreed to.

DomDawes continues...


2) One of my friends is an art director who worked with Ditko at several
companies including Topps and Defiant. He considers Ditko one of the most
talented and professional artists he's ever worked with.

Scarle...@kjdsak.com sez...
Same as above, assumptions are just empty words.

Wha--???
The man worked with Ditko, found Steve to be both extremely talented and
obliging (willing to make art changes to accomodate editorial will).
What "assumptions" are you taking about?

-D

ANIM8Rfsk

unread,
Nov 24, 2002, 10:17:27 AM11/24/02
to
<< From: ScarletSpider Scarle...@kjdsak.com >>


<< I just understand the diference beetwen an artist vision and the editor or
pubblisher. >>

You've made it very very clear you don't understand any better than you spell.

Dom, give up on this guy, he's just trolling you.

BJ

unread,
Nov 25, 2002, 11:49:56 AM11/25/02
to
On a somewhat unrelated note, didn't Ditko do the Speedball 12-part series back in
the 80s? I wonder how that meshed with his reasons for leaving.

DomDawes

unread,
Nov 25, 2002, 3:17:08 PM11/25/02
to
<< On a somewhat unrelated note, didn't Ditko do the Speedball 12-part series
back in the 80s? I wonder how that meshed with his reasons for leaving. >>

He was also doing ROM: Spaceknight for awhile.
He returned to freelancing at Marvel on the condition that he NOT do anything
related to Spidey or Doc Strange, even covers

Jack Kirby, after his return DID covers, but not interiors for FF, Thor, etc.
The only books (of characters he created previously) that he did interiors for
were Black Panther and Captain America. He also wrote and edited them.

Ditko would do anything else (Including Hulk, Avengers, etc.) willingly. But NO
Spidey or Doc under ANY circumstances!

-D

CBoldman

unread,
Nov 25, 2002, 5:22:17 PM11/25/02
to
<< Ditko would do anything else (Including Hulk, Avengers, etc.) willingly. But
NO
Spidey or Doc under ANY circumstances!

-D >>

Seems to me that Spidey's head (it was among a montage of faces) did creep into
a panel of one of his books during that period. But I also recall hearing that
it was the inker's doing; the head was originally pencilled as some other
character's face.


KurtBusiek

unread,
Nov 25, 2002, 6:50:29 PM11/25/02
to
>>Seems to me that Spidey's head (it was among a montage of faces) did creep
into a panel of one of his books during that period. But I also recall hearing
that it was the inker's doing; the head was originally pencilled as some other
character's face.>>

You might be remembering a shot of Spidey or Doc Strange in the ROM issues that
guest-starred virtually everyone -- the character showed up in a crowd panel,
but was a stat of a figure Ditko had drawn in the Sixties.

Rumor was he was pretty annoyed about it. Other rumor was he never looked at
the published book, so he didn't know. But it struck me as a poor way to honor
his wishes.

kdb

0 new messages