Susp vs. Seibertron.com (yeah, not much of a bout, I know)
Suspsy
I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided. Some
people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan over
at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick to
condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan himself.
I won't go so far as to post the transcripts of our dialogue. Basically,
Ryan avoided responding to all my inquiries and instead boasted about how
great he is for standing up against "The System" or some such nonsense.
Now, my patience can only go so far when someone feeds me bullshit. I got
annoyed with Ryan. Last evening, I told him I hoped Hasbro and 3H came down
hard on him (which they have done). Upon which, Ryan informed me that he had
cut off my access to Seibertron.com.
Being cut off from such a cesspool hardly puts a crinkle in my life, on or
off the Web, but I was intrigued to see if Ryan had the cojones to actually
go through with it. So many people on-line only talk the talk and never walk
the walk, you see. So I checked out Seibertron.com a bunch of times while I
was hanging out in #wiigii! with my close and dear companions. I also wanted
to check to see if Hasbro or 3H had done anything about Ryan's harmful
antics.
I tried to go to sleep a little while ago, but I seem to have insommnia or
something. So I went back on-line and surfed ATT and Allspark for a bit.
Then I decided, "what the heck, let's see what idiocy's going on on the
Seibertron forums. Those idiots crack me up." But when I tried to access the
forums, I got this:
>>Hello, Suspy. Welcome to your very own customized page. You should really
feel quite honored that I took the time to customize such a wonderful
website just for you.
Let's see, what did I want to talk about? Oh yah! I wanted to discuss why
you are such a bitter, bitter young boy. Such a shame, really, that you have
nothing better to do than try and ruin things for people.
I guess what I'm trying to understand is what's so wrong with your life that
this has been such a passion to you. Let me guess, you are inadequetly sized
as a man. Oh wait! Maybe it's because you got fired from a job ... or better
yet, you can't get a job worth a shit. No, that's not it? Surely it's some
bullshit reason that you feel the need to be an ass hole.
Or maybe your just a dick who absolutely revels in being a dick because it
makes him feel better. Either way, I find your behavior very humorous
actually. I think it's funny that you spend so much time thinking about my
web site. I'm quite honored, really. I love it when fans obsess about my
website. You seem to have that down really well. I'll take it as a
compliment.
By the way, I know every time you visit my website. Let's see ... you
visited at 9:47, 9:28 (twice), 9:27, 9;26, 6:17, 6:16. Those are central
times from today. Last night you kept checking the site a whole bunch
between 9 and 10 central time. I think that's neat that you like checking to
see when I'm going to unblock your account.
Well, Suspy. I've got to get going to bed. Some of us work for a living and
I have to be at my job tomorrow morning bright and early. Take care and have
a great night. I look forward to seeing how many more times you check the
site in the next 24 hours especially now that this personalized webpage as
been posted just for you!
Have a great night, man. I really appreciate all of the page views you give
me! You rock Suspy!!
Ryan<<
Was I angry? No. Was I hurt? No. Did I laugh out loud? Yes. This is without
a doubt one of the most flattering things that's ever happened to me as a
member of this fandom. If a poor creature like Ryan hates me so much that
he'd actually take the time to construct a special page just for me, it
means I've been doing *something* right all this time. Not that there was
any doubt, natch.
Ryan, if you're reading this, you've made these past two days truly
entertaining. Merci beaucoup.
Oh, and it's "asshole," not "ass hole." Learn proper English already.
Susp
"Life is good." -BW Rampage
Xis
> I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided.
Some
> people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan
over
> at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
Eh, talking about yourself is impolite.
> You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick to
> condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan
himself.
> I won't go so far as to post the transcripts of our dialogue. Basically,
> Ryan avoided responding to all my inquiries and instead boasted about how
> great he is for standing up against "The System" or some such nonsense.
Posting pictures of the exclusives, on the other hand, is super-uncool.
Hasbro should come down on him hard. I usually enjoy seeing prototypes, but
the Botcon toys should be a surprise.
Gripe: I've tried to remain unspoiled about the Botcon exclusives, and yet I
now know three of them...
Ground Zero
Some
> people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan
over
> at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
> Susp
>
> "Life is good." -BW Rampage
Well Suspy, if you haven't already noticed (and I'm sure you likely have)
images of the exclusives can now be found pretty much anywhere and
everywhere on the net. There must be at least a dozen links to photos of
them on ATT alone. Fact is, though, even on Seibertron.com, anyone who does
not wish to be spoiled can easily turn away. It's a shame that these images
were leaked, as they do sortof ruin the surprise for most people. But at
this point, those who were even slightly curious have likely already seen
the images -- the damage has been done.
You, on the other hand, decided to go on some self-righteous crusade. If
Hasbro and 3H had really, truly pushed to have those images taken down, I'm
under the impression that Seibertron.com would have had them taken down by
now -- cease and desist orders are wonderful things in that regards.
However, they're still there.
I was wondering if you had any evidence that Hasbro and/or 3H have sent
anything of the sort to Seibertron.com? So far, the only thing we have to
go on is your angry little rant, and Ryan's reply... and quite frankly,
judging by your tone at the moment, I wouldn't have thought twice about
doing the same.
-GZ
Star Shuttle
> You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick to
> condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan
himself.
Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale? A ~lot~
of us wanted to see those pics. Fortunately, Ryan must have saved them, and
was probably trying to help the folks at ATT who missed them. And I think
that he wouldn't have mentioned that he had those pics on this NG ~if~
people didn't ask for them. Perhaps Ryan could have been more subtle by
emailing the pics ~secretly~ to those who were requesting them instead of
posting them on the site.
These are my last thoughts about this subject, and I won't be replying any
further to this thread, in case anyone replies to it.
>>Hello, Suspy. Welcome to your very own customized page. You should really
>> feel quite honored that I took the time to customize such a wonderful
>> website just for you.
>> By the way, I know every time you visit my website. Let's see ... you
>> visited at 9:47, 9:28 (twice), 9:27, 9;26, 6:17, 6:16. Those are central
>> times from today. Last night you kept checking the site a whole bunch
>> between 9 and 10 central time. I think that's neat that you like checking
to
>> see when I'm going to unblock your account.
~That~ is some creepy shit, Suspsy. So, does your computer broadcast its
ISP? Sounds like you need to get some serious firewall installed.
--
S+S
Dave Van Domelen
Star Shuttle <stars...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
>Suspsy writes:
>
>> You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick to
>> condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan
>himself.
>
>Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale?
Wow. I am stunned at the level of bratty-little-kidness displayed by
that statement. But, sadly, not surprised...I've really been expecting
SOMEONE to invoke that statement in reference to Susp, given that all too
many people don't leave behind the bad parts of childhood.
Dave Van Domelen, lesse...Hasbro is being cool to fans by doing all
these various things, and they merely ask that we abide a few reasonable
restrictions. Yeah, that's totally unfair, and we should break the rules and
lie about it as much as possible.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale? A ~lot~
> of us wanted to see those pics.
I'm not sure what the right way to say this is...
It doesn't matter if you want to see the pictures. You are not entitled
to see them. You have no right to see them, you have no right to expect
to see them. The exclusives are 3H's property, and any and all leaked
pictures are *criminal*, representing stolen photos if not (much more
likely) stolen toys. No matter how desperate you are to see the toys, it
is still absolutely, 100% immoral and illegal to distribute them.
All this is especially idiotic when you consider that *everyone* will be
able to see the toys once the convention has started. Is it really so
important to you to see them early? Is this whole phenomenon some sort of
lashing out by people who aren't attending the convention, feeling bitter
about it, and trying to ruin the experience for the convention's
organizers and two thousand attendees?
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Hydra
> Hello ATT.
>
> I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided. Some
> people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan over
> at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
>
all about yourself. Who do you believe actually cares about your
valiant struggle with seibertron.com? What do you think it has to do
with anything? Yeah, big deal, lots of people hate seibertron.com,
since they ripped various people off and so on. But don't you think
that this is needless stroking of your own ego?
-Hydra
Jackpot
>
> There must be at least a dozen links to
> photos of them on ATT alone. Fact is, though, even on Seibertron.com,
> anyone who does not wish to be spoiled can easily turn away.
Unfortunately, the fandom isn't cleanly divided between People Who Want
To See and People Who Will Turn Their Eyes. Most people are in a middle
ground, where *ideally* the surprise would be reserved for the
convention, making the whole thing more exciting and preserving the
creators' moral right to control the release of info about their
creation.... but hey, if the pics are there, why not take a peek?
So along with the hardcore spoiler-mongers, you've got a huge middle-of-
the-road swath that will also spoil the surprise for themselves. And
what it means in the end is that the convention loses a bit of its
mystique for a majority of attendees. Some of those people won't care,
but obviously BC organizers since day one have considered that an
important aspect worth working hard to preserve. Hell, a good legal
team might even be able to put a dollar amount on it.
> It's a
> shame that these images were leaked, as they do sortof ruin the
> surprise for most people. But at this point, those who were even
> slightly curious have likely already seen the images -- the damage has
> been done.
For one thing, pulling the pics down from big fansites with heavy
traffic *will* likely prevent SOME people from being spoiled - casual
fans who aren't deep enough into the fandom to easily find the pics in
"bootleg." Or people who would've looked at the pics because they
thought their existence and prominence must mean it was kosher to do so.
More importantly, though, this sets precedent. A message from Hasbro's
legal representative is a warning to *every* fansite for NEXT time this
happens. Webmasters won't be NEARLY as quick to paste pics that Hasbro
wants kept under wraps if they know that they might get sued.
> If Hasbro and 3H had really, truly pushed to have those images taken
> down, I'm under the impression that Seibertron.com would have had them
> taken down by now -- cease and desist orders are wonderful things in
> that regards. However, they're still there.
Actually, they're gone. In their place in the "WHAT'S NEW" box on
Seibertron's front page is this text:
"We were officially contacted by a law firm representing 'Hasbro, Inc.'
regarding the 'Infringement of Habro's Copyrights'. For the benefit of
ALL Transformers websites, I have posted the email I received concerning
this matter on the Energon Pub message board here at SEIBERTRON.com. I
am still working with the law firm from New York to find out what
specifically is acceptable and what is not acceptable so that we can all
proceed forth from here in a happy little matter. Over the course of
the next 24 hours, I will be modifying the image links of upcoming
Hasbro Transformers products which supposedly infringe upon Hasbro's
copyrights. Let it be known that I am in full support of the first
ammendment which protects the freedom of speech and the freedom of the
press. I will find out for ALL of us what we are legally allowed to
post."
There's more ranting about Big Brother and The Man keepin' us down, but
that's the meat of it.
And, FYI, here's the text of Hasbro's letter to Seibertron.com. (I
deleted some spoily material, which of course Seib left in.)
"Re: Infringement of Habro's Copyrights
"Dear Webmaster:
"We are counsel for Hasbro, Inc., which owns all rights to the
trademarks and copyrights associated with TRANSFORMERS® toys and related
merchandise.
"We have seen your website called "seibertron.com," which contains
numerous images of TRANSFORMERS® toys, packaging, and promotional
materials. In particular, we have become aware that your website is
displaying unauthorized photographs of prototype [SPOILY SPOILY] action
figures.
"We hope that you realize that the display of these prototypes has not
been authorized by Hasbro, and therefore constitutes copyright
infringement in violation of 17 U.S.C. § 501. Although we appreciate
your interest in the figures, your unauthorized display of them is
detrimental to the TRANSFORMERS® property as a whole.
"We therefore demand that you immediately cease any further display of
the unreleased [SPOILY SPOILY] action figures and any other unreleased
TRANSFORMERS® action figures. Please confirm to us in writing that the
offending images have been removed from your website, and provide us
with your written agreement to the above as soon as possible, and in any
event within five (5) days of the date of this letter.
"This letter does not purport to be a complete statement of the facts or
the law and is without prejudice to Hasbro's legal and equitable
rights."
So yeah. Hasbro Hath Spoken.
- Jackpot (And thank Primus.)
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
|
| Art portfolio - TF and more:
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Thomas Hamann
thought:
<snip>
I want to see a screenshot of this. No, seriously, I want to.
Anyway, if you want to acess/read their forums without getting the
page, try using one of those anonymiser websites. Might work.
Thomas Hamann, it is always amazing that even though you might think
you've seen the ultimate in 'childish', some people always can top
it...
--
Universal Newsgroup signature:
Personal Website: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/
Rec.Arts.Anime.Models Posting Policies: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/faqs.htm
"...you ain't no different than Ben Laden..." - The emminent Dr. J ranting about me on alt.toys.transformers.
Desperadimus Prime
>all about yourself. Who do you believe actually cares about your
>valiant struggle with seibertron.com? What do you think it has to do
>with anything? Yeah, big deal, lots of people hate seibertron.com,
>since they ripped various people off and so on. But don't you think
>that this is needless stroking of your own ego?
>
Seriously, was that called for? If you didn't like his post, just skip over
it.
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Desperadimus Prime
>you've seen the ultimate in 'childish', some people always can top
>it...
If you want to see the "ultimate in childish," just watch "Reality TV." You'll
see crap on there that really should stay in high schools and political
assemblies, where it belongs.
Ground Zero
"Jackpot" <i_do_not_read_an...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns938471E7...@216.174.194.50...
> Ground Zero wrote:
> >
> > There must be at least a dozen links to
> > photos of them on ATT alone. Fact is, though, even on Seibertron.com,
> > anyone who does not wish to be spoiled can easily turn away.
<blah blah blah>
>
> So yeah. Hasbro Hath Spoken.
>
> - Jackpot (And thank Primus.)
>
Thanks for the update. I'm glad to get the full story finally about what
has been going on between the two.
-GZ
Gustavo Wombat
>
> I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided. Some
> people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan over
> at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
[long story trimmed]
That is so incredibly cool.
> "Life is good." -BW Rampage
I don't recall him saying this... what episode was this? what was the
context? It seems like such a non-Rampage thing to say.
Gustavo
Suspsy
> Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale?
Star Shuttle, did anyone ever tell you that we're no longer in third grade?
Welcome to the adult world, where reporting crimes to the proper authorities
is strongly encouraged and appreciated.
A ~lot~
> of us wanted to see those pics.
Aw, and now you'll have to wait another agonizing two months. Poor,
unfortunate, deprived little you.
> ~That~ is some creepy shit, Suspsy. So, does your computer broadcast its
> ISP? Sounds like you need to get some serious firewall installed.
I couldn't care less whether I never have access to Seibertron.com as long
as I live. Up until this whole fiasco, I rarely ever visited that dump.
"Hydra" <hyd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Others are sick of your narcissism in doing things like making posts
> all about yourself. Who do you believe actually cares about your
> valiant struggle with seibertron.com?
Quite a few people, judging from the responses both here and in email.
What do you think it has to do
> with anything? Yeah, big deal, lots of people hate seibertron.com,
> since they ripped various people off and so on. But don't you think
> that this is needless stroking of your own ego?
Pardon me for wanting to show everyone just how big an irrational whiny
bastard Ryan is.
And please, don't even try to lecture me about having an ego, Drew.
Susp
"The best achievements are worth repeating." -Sky Lynx
Suspsy
> > "Life is good." -BW Rampage
>
> I don't recall him saying this... what episode was this? what was the
> context? It seems like such a non-Rampage thing to say.
Season 3, "Changing of the Guard," when he sees Depth Charge's tail sticking
out from some Axalon wreckage and mistakenly assumes that the rest of DC is
trapped underneath.
Actually, the entire quote is "Buried and helpless. Life is good."
Susp
"Comin' atcha, X." -Depth Charge
Ground Zero
> "Star Shuttle" <stars...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> > Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale?
>
> Star Shuttle, did anyone ever tell you that we're no longer in third
grade?
> Welcome to the adult world, where reporting crimes to the proper
authorities
> is strongly encouraged and appreciated.
Yet being a jackass about it isn't.
> A ~lot~
> > of us wanted to see those pics.
>
> Aw, and now you'll have to wait another agonizing two months. Poor,
> unfortunate, deprived little you.
Remember that "no longer in third grade" comment you made above?
> > ~That~ is some creepy shit, Suspsy. So, does your computer broadcast
its
> > ISP? Sounds like you need to get some serious firewall installed.
>
> I couldn't care less whether I never have access to Seibertron.com as long
> as I live. Up until this whole fiasco, I rarely ever visited that dump.
Thank god.
> "Hydra" <hyd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > Others are sick of your narcissism in doing things like making posts
> > all about yourself. Who do you believe actually cares about your
> > valiant struggle with seibertron.com?
>
> Quite a few people, judging from the responses both here and in email.
I have no qualms with your struggle. I agree that it's a shame the images
were leaked, and that people have had the surprise spoiled. In the last
hour, there's been yet another "Hey, the exclusives are <blah>" without any
spoiler space at all. Your fight is in vain, my friend. It's too little,
too late. The good news is, Seibertron.com DID pull the pictures. So you
do have something to cheer about in that regards. I guess a kudos is in
order. You're still being a major dick about it though. We could do
without that.
> What do you think it has to do
> > with anything? Yeah, big deal, lots of people hate seibertron.com,
> > since they ripped various people off and so on. But don't you think
> > that this is needless stroking of your own ego?
>
> Pardon me for wanting to show everyone just how big an irrational whiny
> bastard Ryan is.
Pot, meet kettle.
> And please, don't even try to lecture me about having an ego, Drew.
I'm sure you've heard it enough already.
-GZ
Ari X
> "Star Shuttle" <stars...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
>
>>Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale?
>
>
> Star Shuttle, did anyone ever tell you that we're no longer in third grade?
> Welcome to the adult world, where reporting crimes to the proper authorities
> is strongly encouraged and appreciated.
I think it's funny that you're invoking the "adult world" in discussing
photos of toys.
Insane666
"Suspsy" <danie...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Sbkza.212597$M81....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Tri Stars Zaku II
>Gripe: I've tried to remain unspoiled about the Botcon exclusives, and yet I
>now know three of them...
>
Heh, heh, not me!!!
:)
-Sean Kneeland
http://members.aol.com/zaku2ms06/main.html
Email: zakuf2ms06f2 at aol dot com
Doug Kern
<stars...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> Suspsy writes:
>
> > You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick to
> > condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan
> himself.
>
> Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale? A ~lot~
> of us wanted to see those pics. Fortunately, Ryan must have saved them, and
> was probably trying to help the folks at ATT who missed them. And I think
> that he wouldn't have mentioned that he had those pics on this NG ~if~
> people didn't ask for them. Perhaps Ryan could have been more subtle by
> emailing the pics ~secretly~ to those who were requesting them instead of
> posting them on the site.
It doesn't matter. These pics are of stolen items. I emailed Hasbro
as well about this and quite happy I did. The surprise of these
exclusives was ruined for by scum such as seibertron.com putting them
do any idiot can post about what they are. We arleady had one unmarked
spoiler thread here on att. Is that acceptible? No, it most certainly
isn't.
These items are suppossed to be a surpirse to be shown when the con
organizers want to, not when some sleazy site decides to ruin the
surprise for everyone cause it is "news".
Ryan should be doing nothing at all with these pics. Hasbro asked the
fans to not put up any more pictures of prototypes of any sort, and yet
we still have people ruining any sort of relationship the fanbase can
have with them by doing so. It is extremely deplorable, and by
defending it, frankily, you are in the same leagues as the crooks who
stole them.
--
Doug Kern
AKA Monocle
dougla...@earthlink.net
Tri Stars Zaku II
>Take your beef somewhere else.
I was wondering who left that here.
>No one cares to see flame wars.
>
Are you kidding? Flame wars are the lifeblood of ATT.
Besides, Suspsy didn't start a flame war, and it's been relatively calm as
flame wars go. Do I think airing dirty laundry in public is a good thing? Not
necessarily, but given the nature of the crime, I tend to lean towards Suspsy
on this one.
Besides, if you can't wait two months to see the toys (which were SUPPOSED to
be a surprise, people, HELLO!!!), then there is something seriously wrong with
you.
Rapido
> Suspsy writes:
>
> > You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was quick
to
> > condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course, Ryan
> himself.
>
> Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale? A ~lot~
> of us wanted to see those pics.
WTF?! Hey if you didn't happen to see 'em when they were available then
that's your problem. Seibertron.com's in the wrong not Suspsy.
Jose
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
Steve-o Stonebraker <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote :
> On Fri, 23 May 2003 07:52:50 -0700, Star Shuttle wrote:
> > Suspsy, did anyone ever tell you that nobody likes a tattle-tale? A ~lot~
> > of us wanted to see those pics.
>
> I'm not sure what the right way to say this is...
>
> It doesn't matter if you want to see the pictures. You are not entitled
> to see them. You have no right to see them, you have no right to expect
> to see them.
But you do have the right to want to see them , and the history that
we (the fans) have with leaked BC exclusives -- bouth officially (in
2002 3H Enterprises at the Wizard World event have confirmed one of
the exclusives for BotCon ) , and unoffocially (in the form of Spqqky
and his like) gives a person some right to expect to see them .
It may be _wrong_ , but that does not take away the history of leaked
BC exclusives -- wich creates it's own dynamic of expectation -- in
this case the expectation to see the exclusives ahead of time .
What for you and for some of the BC attenders is a rare chance to
await in anticipation a unvailing of a surprise , for many others it's
just one more chance to catch a pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
And since we , as a fandom currently have a chance to officially and
unofficially see 99% of the upcomeing toys through Toyfare , Remy
Rodis and other chanels , I woudn't be so quick to judge pepole for
whom this is just another pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
> The exclusives are 3H's property, and any and all leaked
> pictures are *criminal*, representing stolen photos if not (much more
> likely) stolen toys.
This -- as a dry and formal fact is true .
> No matter how desperate you are to see the toys, it
> is still absolutely, 100% immoral and illegal to distribute them.
En mass , this is true about the legal point even if I suspect that
the "100% immoral" part comes from your own strong objection to
Seibertron.com's actions .
I don't share that mindset about the immorality of these actions ,
because I recognise Seibertron.com's lack of intent in partakeing in
any truely malevolent action (they did it to serve the fandom , not to
screw Hasbro , 1H , Suspsy or you ) , and I for one think that there
are far more disgusting things that I can attach that label to then
leaked pictures of stolen toys .
> All this is especially idiotic when you consider that *everyone* will be
> able to see the toys once the convention has started. Is it really so
> important to you to see them early?
I can't speak for anyone else , but I coudn't care less either way .
But I do know that curiousity can be a pain , and thus I don't blame
pepole who have either wanted to see the toys by themselfs , or those
who were prompted to see the toys by the recent Botcon imige/art pice
that featured a femme bot at it's corner .
> Is this whole phenomenon some sort of
> lashing out by people who aren't attending the convention, feeling bitter
> about it, and trying to ruin the experience for the convention's
> organizers and two thousand attendees?
I'm sorry Steve-o , but in all the 5-6 years that I've read your posts
, I have to say that that was your least thought out statment yet , at
least IMHO .
Now I've heard a few things about Seibertron.com , and not all of the
things that I've heard sounded quite kosher , but I have no reason
what so ever to think that the displaying of those imiges by
Seibertron.com was done in any malevolent intent in mind .
Yes , it was legally wrong , but that's where my objections end .
And don't try and convince me that Hasbro or 1H lost a penny out of
their pockets because of this , because I don't see that happening .
Ryan made a mistake , and that's all .
There is a thin line between what the Big TF News sites give us that
is Officially Authorised by Hasbro , and what slips out as Hot News ,
and isn't endorsed by Hasbro .
Seibertron made a bad call , and that's where it ends .
They didn't do it to spite anyone .
They provided information .
They just didn't see it as illegal information .
And it had nothing to do with what you have written above .
Now I woud support Suspsys actions if they were made out of an equal
opportunity POW .
Unfortunetly they weren't .
See , I don't think that Susp woud have run off to blow the whistle on
Rik Bakke , Zob , or Nightwind .
But he did do it for Seibertron.com .
And for that reason alone if notheing else , that sucks .
Not because he mighe have had other reasons to set the Hasbro lawyers
on Seibertron.com , but _because_ he had set the Hasbro lawyers on
Seibertron.com .
That action is just un-cool out of princible .
It's un-cool , because you woudn't want anyone to do that to you
(whoever is reading this at the moment ) -- not because Seibertron.com
is innocent .
But we all make mistakes . Some more than others .
I just hope that Cybertron.com understands where they went wrong ,
just as much as I hope that threats of legal action will be kept at
bay within this fandom .
And if anyone else feels the need to directly or indirectly threaten
others within this fandom with legal action inspired by personal
pre-conceptions , and later on to make a tabloid report about it ,
then please feel free to do so .
It'd be just one more reason to ... love you more and more , with each
passing day .
Really .
-Gabi. ... because you know that if you have two legal threats in
less than a year , with bouth relating to contributing pepole within
our fandom ... , that there's just something rotten in paradise ...
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> [long story trimmed]
>
> That is so incredibly cool.
No Gustavo , it isn't .
It is however very sad ... , and so pathetic that I'm haveing trouble
finding words that match this situation .
-Gabi.
XGrimlock2002
If you live in Canada or Japan & saw a new TF cartoon episode . I'll be happy
to read the review.
In this day & age with the internet. why wait when you could get a sneak peak
Waiting is for SUCKERS.
If you have advanced info,I'll be more than glad to view it.
Pyre
> In their place in the "WHAT'S NEW" box on
> Seibertron's front page is this text:
>
> post."
>
You know, this baffles me. We were told what was legally allowed 3 months
ago during Toy Fair. Hasbro specifically said that unreleased prototypes
and such weren't allowed. Was Seibertron asleep that whole time or what?
While I'm here I want to address something else I've seen brought up
repeatedly. Some people seem to be under the impression that they're
being forced to buy the OTFCC exclusives before seeing them. This is
nonsense. The option is there on the prereg form to purchase them but no
one has to. Everyone is free to wait until the convention to get them so
that you know what you're getting and don't have to get them if you don't
want to. The option is there on the prereg form just to make it easier to
get them.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"Nothing to gain, hollow and alone
and the fault is my own, and the fault is my own"
Pyre
> But don't you think
> that this is needless stroking of your own ego?
>
I imagine he thought other people might find amusement in Ryan's childish
antics. I know *I* certainly thought it was funny.
Aaron F. Bourque
>I don't like surprisses.
You're a spastic little get.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker' Bourque; let's keep this flame war goin!
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming robot toys for ten-year-olds
http://members.aol.com/aaronbourque/cryotekwarning.jpg
Suspsy
> Hello flame-war ...
Only because you're trying to make it one.
> But you do have the right to want to see them , and the history that
> we (the fans) have with leaked BC exclusives -- bouth officially (in
> 2002 3H Enterprises at the Wizard World event have confirmed one of
> the exclusives for BotCon ) , and unoffocially (in the form of Spqqky
> and his like) gives a person some right to expect to see them .
Uh, no. Just because you have a right to want something doesn't give you the
right to have it.
> It may be _wrong_ , but that does not take away the history of leaked
> BC exclusives -- wich creates it's own dynamic of expectation -- in
> this case the expectation to see the exclusives ahead of time .
I don't get this. Are you saying that just because some people have come to
expect 3H to have the pleasure of unveiling their exclusive toys stolen from
them year after year makes it acceptable on some level? I sincerely hope
not.
> What for you and for some of the BC attenders is a rare chance to
> await in anticipation a unvailing of a surprise , for many others it's
> just one more chance to catch a pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
Right, an unauthorized, unlawful preview that hurts relations between
Hasbro, 3H, and the fandom.
> And since we , as a fandom currently have a chance to officially and
> unofficially see 99% of the upcomeing toys through Toyfare , Remy
> Rodis and other chanels , I woudn't be so quick to judge pepole for
> whom this is just another pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
Clearly, you haven't been reading all the wretched vitriole taking place on
Energon Hub, ADC, and the 2005 Boards.
> En mass , this is true about the legal point even if I suspect that
> the "100% immoral" part comes from your own strong objection to
> Seibertron.com's actions .
> I don't share that mindset about the immorality of these actions ,
> because I recognise Seibertron.com's lack of intent in partakeing in
> any truely malevolent action (they did it to serve the fandom , not to
> screw Hasbro , 1H , Suspsy or you )
Wrong again. They did it primarily for the attention and the 100,000 hits
they bragged about.
, and I for one think that there
> are far more disgusting things that I can attach that label to then
> leaked pictures of stolen toys .
That doesn't diminish the immorality of their actions in the least. That's
like saying that since murdering a person is far worse than robbing them,
it's okay to rob someone.
> Now I've heard a few things about Seibertron.com , and not all of the
> things that I've heard sounded quite kosher , but I have no reason
> what so ever to think that the displaying of those imiges by
> Seibertron.com was done in any malevolent intent in mind .
Again, it's clear that you haven't done enough research into the matter. I
strongly suggest that you peruse Energon Hub, ADC, and the 2005 Boards
before you lecture any further.
> Yes , it was legally wrong , but that's where my objections end .
> And don't try and convince me that Hasbro or 1H lost a penny out of
> their pockets because of this , because I don't see that happening .
Money was never an issue, Gabi. This is an issue about legality and respect.
> Now I woud support Suspsys actions if they were made out of an equal
> opportunity POW .
> Unfortunetly they weren't .
> See , I don't think that Susp woud have run off to blow the whistle on
> Rik Bakke , Zob , or Nightwind .
You're right, I wouldn't, because I have a good deal of respect and
affection for Rik (who I miss), Zob, and Nightwind. They have all shown
themselves to be decent, dedicated people who listen to what others have to
say even if it's not what they want to hear. Ryan, OTOH, has shown himself
to be the polar opposite. As such, whereas I would've confronted Rik, Zob,
or Nightwind first before alerting Hasbro and 3H, I have no regrets about my
actions regarding Ryan.
Of course, this is a moot point, since I know neither Rik, Zob, or Nightwind
would ever do such a thing.
> And for that reason alone if notheing else , that sucks .
Wait for it.
> Not because he mighe have had other reasons to set the Hasbro lawyers
> on Seibertron.com , but _because_ he had set the Hasbro lawyers on
> Seibertron.com .
Pardon me for being a law-abiding citizen. Next time something like this
occurs, I'll join you in playing the uncaring bystander.
> That action is just un-cool out of princible .
What "princible", pray tell?
> It's un-cool , because you woudn't want anyone to do that to you
> (whoever is reading this at the moment ) -- not because Seibertron.com
> is innocent .
Actually, if I ever posted pics of OTFCC exclusives, knowing full well that
I was going against the explicitly stated wishes of Hasbro and 3H, I would
definitely expect someone to report me. And I'll thank you to stop making
such assumptions.
> And if anyone else feels the need to directly or indirectly threaten
> others within this fandom with legal action inspired by personal
> pre-conceptions ,
Aha, so adhering to Hasbro's and 3H's explicitly stated, perfectly
reasonable wishes constitutes personal pre-conceptions. I see.
> It'd be just one more reason to ... love you more and more , with each
> passing day .
> Really .
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
> -Gabi. ... because you know that if you have two legal threats in
> less than a year , with bouth relating to contributing pepole within
> our fandom ... , that there's just something rotten in paradise ...
Bad news. Paradise was lost a long, long time ago.
Susp
"The faster you run, the slower you die." -Devcon
Tri Stars Zaku II
>Some people seem to be under the impression that they're
>being forced to buy the OTFCC exclusives before seeing them. This is
>nonsense. The option is there on the prereg form to purchase them but no
>one has to. Everyone is free to wait until the convention to get them so
>that you know what you're getting and don't have to get them if you don't
>want to. The option is there on the prereg form just to make it easier to
>get them.
>
Plus, if someone really wanted to, they could sell the exclusives that they
think "suck" after the convention, and stand a good chance of gaining profit
from it. The Botcon exclusives in the past have always proven to be good
sellers immediately after the convention comes to a close. It's six months
after the end of the convention that people start losing their pants.
Tri Stars Zaku II
>Waiting is for SUCKERS.
Gee, that's like saying waiting is for LOSERS.
I'm sorry, I *LIKE* being surprised. And not a godammned one of you is going to
ever change that for me.
Tri Stars Zaku II
>From: xgriml...@aol.com (XGrimlock2002)
>
>>I don't like surprisses.
>
>You're a spastic little get.
>
>Aaron "The Mad Whitaker' Bourque; let's keep this flame war goin!
Yeah, after all, it's the only one we've had for, what? 2-3 weeks?
Suspsy
> Plus, if someone really wanted to, they could sell the exclusives that
they
> think "suck" after the convention, and stand a good chance of gaining
profit
> from it. The Botcon exclusives in the past have always proven to be good
> sellers immediately after the convention comes to a close.
Immediately after the convention? Try right during. Last year, Big Bad Toy
Store was offering something like +$100 credit for Wrecker Cyclonus.
Susp, also, I heard about Tap-Outs being sold to some Japanese dealers for
$180 EACH.
"Make deals, not war." -Swindle
Tri Stars Zaku II
>Immediately after the convention? Try right during. Last year, Big Bad Toy
>Store was offering something like +$100 credit for Wrecker Cyclonus.
Damn. But I guess that just goes to further illustrate my point that just
because people may not see the exclusives until the time of the convention,
doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be "stuck" with a "sucky" toy. People are
allowed to sell them if they don't want them.
Of course, I guess they don't HAVE to buy them, but hey, you might as well try
to profit from it if you can!
Zobovor the Towel Technician
>You see, when Ryan first posted those OTFCC exclusive pics, I was
>quick to condemn it. I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of course,
>Ryan himself. I won't go so far as to post the transcripts of our
>dialogue. Basically, Ryan avoided responding to all my inquiries and
>instead boasted about how great he is for standing up against "The
>System" or some such nonsense.
You're an outstanding and upstanding citizen, Suspsy. Hasbro and 3H and the
fandom all owe you a debt of thanks.
Zobovor, who didn't know they were TOTCon toys when I rather tactlessly asked a
few days ago to see the eBay images. (I figured they were upcoming Armada
repaints.)
Merytneith
> Actually, they're gone. In their place in the "WHAT'S NEW" box on
> Seibertron's front page is this text:
>
> "We were officially contacted by a law firm representing 'Hasbro, Inc.'
> regarding the 'Infringement of Habro's Copyrights'. For the benefit of
> ALL Transformers websites, I have posted the email I received concerning
> this matter on the Energon Pub message board here at SEIBERTRON.com. I
> am still working with the law firm from New York to find out what
> specifically is acceptable and what is not acceptable so that we can all
> proceed forth from here in a happy little matter. Over the course of
> the next 24 hours, I will be modifying the image links of upcoming
> Hasbro Transformers products which supposedly infringe upon Hasbro's
> copyrights. Let it be known that I am in full support of the first
> ammendment which protects the freedom of speech and the freedom of the
> press. I will find out for ALL of us what we are legally allowed to
> post."
>
> There's more ranting about Big Brother and The Man keepin' us down, but
> that's the meat of it.
You know.... I find it ENDLESSLY AMUSING when I see people
exert the MISTAKEN belief that the First Amendment protects
them from *copyright infringement*.
I laugh *every* time.
And, no, I don't mean that "oh look what amusing nonsense is
this" kind of laugh, either. I'm talking about the deep,
dark, evil supervillain-y kind of laugh where I realize that
there's an endless supply of billable hours out there for
the taking.
I think I *will* sign the lease on that new RX-8.
Muahahahahahahaha.
--Mery, who perhaps should have posted this as "Evil Mery".
======================================================
Bart: Mr. Hutz when I grow up I want to be a lawyer
just like you.
Hutz: Good for you, son.
If there's one thing America needs, it's more
lawyers. Can you imagine a world without lawyers?
[Hutz imagines a scene of people of all nationalities
holding hands and dancing around in a circle under
a rainbow.]
Hutz: [shudders] Aaaagh!
=====================================================
Merytneith
> You're a spastic little get.
>
> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker' Bourque; let's keep this flame war goin!
The word is "GIT", you wanker.
--Mery...
Darwinian Road Kill
: Hello ATT.
: I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided. Some
: people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan over
: at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
Um...Tankorr...like...pie?
<snippety!><bonk!><woof!>
(In which Susp discovered that not only is he blocked from the seibertron
forums, but that a new page had been made Just For Him)
: Was I angry? No. Was I hurt? No. Did I laugh out loud? Yes. This is without
: a doubt one of the most flattering things that's ever happened to me as a
: member of this fandom. If a poor creature like Ryan hates me so much that
: he'd actually take the time to construct a special page just for me, it
: means I've been doing *something* right all this time.
Pretty much sums up my feelings about ending up in the #wiigii! FAQ,
actually. Except maybe the "poor creature" part (Recharge, being the man,
did write it, after all...)
ObTFs: So, as I understand things, one of the recent decisions in the wake
of Armada's popularity and 3-2H's increased collaboration with Hasbro
will be the integration of TF:EU into retail toyline "continuity". My
question is, should they attempt to "confine" an expanded universe to one
continuity, or just keep it a connected-yet-seperate mutli-year
alternate line? Also, why are the Classic Commemoratives not part of the
EU line? Do only certain characters (Neo-G1's like Tap-Out or Botcon
exclusive Beasts like Fractyl) qualify as EU characters? and what would
that mean, exactly? "They're canon, but you never see them, except on
shelves or in dealer rooms..."
And why no Hasbro Break?
Ryan :>
"People who like penguins are nice people" -- Eric Bennett
(Fact: If my .sig gets over 10 lines, you can hit me)
"I have 4 gorillas, and i think you can kill them at botcon." -- Trypticon X
My half-baked site: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/8720
TF code: G++ AD/A OP/Q P212 ICQ:43171844
Finback
I'll tell you what I find pathetic (and no, this is not aimed directly
at Gabi).
I cannot BELIEVE the sheer blind vandalism that Seibertron is
perpetuating on the rest of the fandom, and that people are supporting
them for it. Hasbro has made a simple request in the past: don't put
up these images of stolen prototypes. 3H has made similar requests
regarding the appearance of convention exclusives prior to the
convention itself. Now what do we see? Seibertron.com willingly going
against these simple requests in a supposed attempt to "bring the fans
what they want".
This is the biggest load of crap I have EVER heard from a website
relating to Transformers, and I am truly ashamed that this element
exists within our fandom.
Apparently, they're doing this when no other sites will because they
believe this is all some sort of conspiracy against them. That's
right. Allspark, 2005, Transfandom.com, etc.. are all in "Hasbro's
pocket". And this, somehow in the warped mind of Ryan, makes them some
sort of rogue vigilantes, bringing you the news that Hasbro doesn't
want you to see.
Well, pardon my French but **** Seibertron in the ass sideways with a
broken glass trombone. Do they actually think that this will in
*anyway* benefit the fandom as a whole? Hasbro is *not* going to cave
and cower before Seibertron.com, they'll simply come down harder. And
what does that mean for the rest of us? We may not get *any* more
sneak advances ahead of time. For so long, the fandom has asked and
begged for Hasbro to listen to us, to try things that please us as
well as the current market, aka The Kids. And what does Seibertron do?
Throw the simple requests HAsbro makes of us back in their face, and
claim the moral right.
It's been said elsewhere in this thread that it was echoing juvenile
antics from the schoolyard. Well, as far as I can tell,
Seibertron.com is that grou of kids that wouldn't shut the hell up
when the teacher asked for silence, and the whole class got kept in
for an hour's detention. And yet apparently, they're being cheered on
by some kids for "striking out against the Man".
And likewise on the same note, they do the same to 3H and try to
justify it with claims like "I wasn't going anyway", and "People want
to know what they're paying for".
"I wasn't going anyway" - I suppose that because I don't celebrate
Christmas, it's thus alright for me to tell everyone in your family
what presents you found for them in November, right?
And people wanting to know what they pay for? Half the *fun* of the
exclusives comes in not knowing what it could be! When the first shots
of the Wreckers came out, it was suggested that the green Ramulus was
actually Hardhead, or Springer.. therein lied the fun. But claiming
that you don't want to waste your money is ridiculous in light of the
increased value of the exclusives on the *same day they were
released*. Second, noone is forcing you to buy them beforehand - you
can always buy them later, and if it costs you more money? Well,
that's your bad luck for not gambling a little. You win some, you lose
some. But tipping over the betting table before anyone else has a
chance to step to the table is showing little respect for your
fellows.
I mean, does anyone remember SpQQky? He put up stolen exclusives ahead
of time on ebay. Hmmmm, where *is* he now? Oh yeah. He got his ass
handed to him because not only was he dabbling in stolen goods, he was
*ruining* the BC experience for others.
And that's what it comes down to with Seibertron.com. Blatant,
pigheaded selfishness. People who cannot wait a couple of months to
see a toy they may not even be buying, and yet are perfectly happy to
see others' enjoyment ruined at their own personal gain.
As for their claims that the fandom is apparently going to boycott
Hasbro products, etc? I'm laughing myself stupid over the thought that
their overinflated egos are so swollen they believe themselves the
voice of the majority.
I sincerely hope Hasbro and 3H come down on Seibertron.com like a
tonne of bricks. I don't want bad apples spoiling the barrel of the
fandom.
Finback at animail.net
"You're a beard with an idiot hanging off it, Manny."
Aaron F. Bourque
>Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
>
>
>> You're a spastic little get.
>>
>> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker' Bourque; let's keep this flame war
>> goin!
>
>
>
>The word is "GIT", you wanker.
Ha! Shows what you know, you whore! "Get" is the archaic form!
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; but I wouldn't expect a
"English" major to know that!...
Thomas Hamann
He/she/it thought:
>Aaron F. Bourque writes:
>
>>From: xgriml...@aol.com (XGrimlock2002)
>>
>>>I don't like surprisses.
>>
>>You're a spastic little get.
>>
>>Aaron "The Mad Whitaker' Bourque; let's keep this flame war goin!
>
>Yeah, after all, it's the only one we've had for, what? 2-3 weeks?
>
Anyway,
You gotta give that Seibertron.com are pretty dumb.
Have you seen that they believed that Matt Marshal's "exclusive" Break
was real? That was really funny.
Thomas Hamann
--
Universal Newsgroup signature:
Personal Website: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/
Rec.Arts.Anime.Models Posting Policies: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/faqs.htm
"...you ain't no different than Ben Laden..." - The emminent Dr. J ranting about me on alt.toys.transformers.
Thomas Hamann
He/she/it thought:
>>Thomas Hamann, it is always amazing that even though you might think
>>you've seen the ultimate in 'childish', some people always can top
>>it...
>
>If you want to see the "ultimate in childish," just watch "Reality TV." You'll
>see crap on there that really should stay in high schools and political
>assemblies, where it belongs.
In the second case...as long as they're no danger to the outside
world.
I won't say more on the subject.
Túrin
> I mean, does anyone remember SpQQky? He put up stolen exclusives ahead
> of time on ebay. Hmmmm, where *is* he now? Oh yeah. He got his ass
> handed to him because not only was he dabbling in stolen goods, he was
> *ruining* the BC experience for others.
I missed what happened to that guy. I know he's not around anymore, but
what exactly went down?
By the way, I agree with everything you said, Fin.
Túrin
Suspsy
> You're an outstanding and upstanding citizen, Suspsy. Hasbro and 3H and
the
> fandom all owe you a debt of thanks.
Not just me by any stretch. Also Rob Powers, Doug Kern, Thylacine, and gods
know who else. This was a concerted effort on the part of many, and it
worked. As such, I think this incident has a very positive side to it. I
think Hasbro realizes more than ever just how loyal the fandom can be.
But thanks for the compliments. :)
Susp
"Aw shucks." -Bumblebee
Clear chromed shiny Zaku II
>You gotta give that Seibertron.com are pretty dumb.
>
In more ways than one.
>Have you seen that they believed that Matt Marshal's "exclusive" Break
>was real? That was really funny.
>
Yep! Life is good, sometimes!
Ethan Hammond
>
> I cannot BELIEVE the sheer blind vandalism that Seibertron is
> perpetuating on the rest of the fandom, and that people are supporting
> them for it. Hasbro has made a simple request in the past: don't put
> up these images of stolen prototypes. 3H has made similar requests
> regarding the appearance of convention exclusives prior to the
> convention itself. Now what do we see? Seibertron.com willingly going
> against these simple requests in a supposed attempt to "bring the fans
> what they want".
As long as fans keep going to the website, they are going to keep doing
it.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> > Hello flame-war ...
>
> Only because you're trying to make it one.
Nope , not really .
> > But you do have the right to want to see them , and the history that
> > we (the fans) have with leaked BC exclusives -- bouth officially (in
> > 2002 3H Enterprises at the Wizard World event have confirmed one of
> > the exclusives for BotCon ) , and unoffocially (in the form of Spqqky
> > and his like) gives a person some right to expect to see them .
>
> Uh, no. Just because you have a right to want something doesn't give you the
> right to have it.
I agree , and if you have read this post as a whole , I'm _sure_ you
didn't miss that I used the words "wrong" and "illegal" when I talked
about the general act of posting of the pics .
> > It may be _wrong_ , but that does not take away the history of leaked
> > BC exclusives -- wich creates it's own dynamic of expectation -- in
> > this case the expectation to see the exclusives ahead of time .
>
> I don't get this. Are you saying that just because some people have come to
> expect 3H to have the pleasure of unveiling their exclusive toys stolen from
> them year after year makes it acceptable on some level? I sincerely hope
> not.
I didn't say that the unvailing of the toys ahead of time and in
dubious ways was accaptable .
What I said was :
1) If one gets spoiled (how many years has it been now -- 3 years ?)
with exposed exclusives , one has the right (a mis-guided right but a
right non the less) to expect things to go on like they have .
"A" says : "I wanna see the BC exclusives !" and "B" asks him : "Why
?"
"A" will respond with :"Well I saw them before the convention for 3
years now , so why shoud this year be any different ?!?" .
And that's what I said -- it's a misguided notion , but it _is_ there
!
2) Add to that the precident set by 3H last year , with the unvailing
of one of their exclusives before BC (why they did that is open to
debate) , wich added to the feeling of some pepole (not me
neccesseraly) that it was somehow "OK" to see the exclusives before
the convention .
Denying this , or calling pepole names , or reporting them to Hasbro
first , without explaining to them first _why_ they are in error , and
why they shoud behave differently -- it's just wrong .
But that's again , only my opinion . I woudn't force it on you even if
I coud .
> > What for you and for some of the BC attenders is a rare chance to
> > await in anticipation a unvailing of a surprise , for many others it's
> > just one more chance to catch a pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
>
> Right, an unauthorized, unlawful preview that hurts relations between
> Hasbro, 3H, and the fandom.
If I knew how and who stole these toys (along the years) , I'd give
you a more detailed answer .
As it it , I'll allow myself to be naive enough to say that I don't
see how this has hurt Hasbro .
But I fully understand how this has hurt 1H , and pepole in our fandom
who feel offended .
> > And since we , as a fandom currently have a chance to officially and
> > unofficially see 99% of the upcomeing toys through Toyfare , Remy
> > Rodis and other chanels , I woudn't be so quick to judge pepole for
> > whom this is just another pre-view of an upcomeing toy .
>
> Clearly, you haven't been reading all the wretched vitriole taking place on
> Energon Hub, ADC, and the 2005 Boards.
Clearly .
I preffer the flame free enviorment of ATT ;-) , along with an
ez-board or two .
> > En mass , this is true about the legal point even if I suspect that
> > the "100% immoral" part comes from your own strong objection to
> > Seibertron.com's actions .
> > I don't share that mindset about the immorality of these actions ,
> > because I recognise Seibertron.com's lack of intent in partakeing in
> > any truely malevolent action (they did it to serve the fandom , not to
> > screw Hasbro , 1H , Suspsy or you )
>
> Wrong again. They did it primarily for the attention and the 100,000 hits
> they bragged about.
Hey , it's fun to be wrong .
I think my head woud explode if I was right all the time ! :-)
BTW , if they primarily did it for the 100.000 hits , does that mean
that many-many-many... fans actually wanted to see the exclusives
before BC ?
Just consider for a moment if you will , what does _that_ exactly say
about our fandom , hmmm ?!
Now don't be shy to answer .
> , and I for one think that there
> > are far more disgusting things that I can attach that label to then
> > leaked pictures of stolen toys .
>
> That doesn't diminish the immorality of their actions in the least.
Cearful now ... , as you are standing in a pit or immorality .
Or is that a pit of accessorys to immorality ?!
You know , all those immoral fans and TF enthusiasts who made up that
100.000 hits .
Cause they sure didn't come out of nowhere .
Ahem , but to the point just to say it once again and pray that you
don't miss it this time -- yes , posting those pics was a bad thing to
do -- I woud not do something like that , nor woud I support anyone
who woud be doing it .
I woud however like it if the exclusives , or some of them at least
were made officially public before the convention , like last year .
Now like I've said , I don't know what prompted 3H to do that last
year , but I belive that it was a good promotional move , just as I
belive that keeping _some_ surprises is okay too , for the fans who
like that sort of thing .
> > Now I've heard a few things about Seibertron.com , and not all of the
> > things that I've heard sounded quite kosher , but I have no reason
> > what so ever to think that the displaying of those imiges by
> > Seibertron.com was done in any malevolent intent in mind .
>
> Again, it's clear that you haven't done enough research into the matter. I
> strongly suggest that you peruse Energon Hub, ADC, and the 2005 Boards
> before you lecture any further.
No offense Susp , but if even if I had the time to do that , I'd
choose to spend it in a different manner .
And no , this has nothing to do with staying willfully ignorant .
>
> > Yes , it was legally wrong , but that's where my objections end .
> > And don't try and convince me that Hasbro or 1H lost a penny out of
> > their pockets because of this , because I don't see that happening .
>
> Money was never an issue, Gabi. This is an issue about legality and respect.
With Hasbro , money will be an issue (or it woudn't be an issue that
woud be confrontd by the use of lawyers) , at least that's what I
understand that toy companys are all about . Money and control , that
is control over their intellectual property , and control of the
market .
As to respect , 3H and 1H have my respect .
But I also respect the 100.000 pepole who wanted to see the pics --
who wanted to get a glimpse of the exclusives .
You see , I may diragree with posting the pics (aka the stolen
material) , but once posted , I also respect the 100.000 pepole who
saw them , and I have no moral qualms about that .
If it comes down to the numbers , then immoral or not 100.000 wanted
to see the exclusives , while (presumably but not for sure) 2000
didn't .
If this were a democracy -- moral or not -- you'd be out voted .
> > Now I woud support Suspsys actions if they were made out of an equal
> > opportunity POW .
> > Unfortunetly they weren't .
> > See , I don't think that Susp woud have run off to blow the whistle on
> > Rik Bakke , Zob , or Nightwind .
>
> You're right, I wouldn't, because I have a good deal of respect and
> affection for Rik (who I miss), Zob, and Nightwind. They have all shown
> themselves to be decent, dedicated people who listen to what others have to
> say even if it's not what they want to hear. Ryan, OTOH, has shown himself
> to be the polar opposite.
Hey , Rik is still arroud in a way ... , but where was I --
Ok , I've said before that I woudn't try to force my sense of morality
on you (or anyone) , but what you've just said didn't convince me of
your sopposed "rightness" to treat one fan differently than any other
.
If you've noticed , I've implyed in my pevious post that you've come
into this situation carrying preconceptions about Ryan .
I can only tell you that I belive that equal opportunity shoud apply
in treatment of any fan -- especially (and I can't stress _especially_
enough) if there are souch consequences as a legal action implyed as a
result of your actions .
> As such, whereas I would've confronted Rik, Zob,
> or Nightwind first before alerting Hasbro and 3H,
And now you said it yourself -- this is the way you woud have acted
with pepole you respect .
>I have no regrets about my actions regarding Ryan.
And here is where our basic notions clash .
See , I woudn't act like that with _anyone_ without trying to clear
things up via e-mail first .
Because IMO it's not right to set things in motion that coud lead to
legal action against someone , in this case a fellow fan , just
because you or I have some preconsived notion about someone -- because
someones past crimes .
Whatever they might have done in the past has no direct rellevance to
the case before us today . (now I'm talking like Mary)
If Ryan woud have in the past posted BC prototypes on his webpage ,
then a short warning shoud have been enough before going to Hasbro .
If he has never posted pics of BC prototypes before , then a long and
extensive explanation woud have been required before going to Hasbro .
But I guess that I won't be able to convince you that I'm right here ,
so what's the point ?
> Of course, this is a moot point, since I know neither Rik, Zob, or Nightwind
> would ever do such a thing.
I'll get back to you on this by e-mail .
> > And for that reason alone if nothing else , that sucks .
>
> Wait for it.
With blushing anticipation ...
>
> > Not because he mighe have had other reasons to set the Hasbro lawyers
> > on Seibertron.com , but _because_ he had set the Hasbro lawyers on
> > Seibertron.com .
>
> Pardon me for being a law-abiding citizen. Next time something like this
> occurs, I'll join you in playing the uncaring bystander.
Perhaps you will , perhaps you won't .
Let me ask you this -- have _you_ seen the pics we're talking about ?
And have they been thrust in your face , or have you sought them out
by clicking on a link ?
I'm just curious to see if you are "above us" somehow by covering your
eyes when you've had the opportunity to see these pice or any leaked
pics of exclusives over the years , or are you motivated not only by a
sense of justice but also by a need to stick it to Ryan becaus of his
past , or because what you think of him as a person ?
> > That action is just un-cool out of princible .
>
> What "princible", pray tell?
Two princibles actually :
a) Don't get a fellow fan in trouble out of spite .
b) If you have to resort to legal intervention , try to exauhst every
option beforhand .
Is that too difficult I wonder ?
> > It's un-cool , because you woudn't want anyone to do that to you
> > (whoever is reading this at the moment ) -- not because Seibertron.com
> > is innocent .
> Actually, if I ever posted pics of OTFCC exclusives, knowing full well that
> I was going against the explicitly stated wishes of Hasbro and 3H, I would
> definitely expect someone to report me. And I'll thank you to stop making
> such assumptions.
And as I've said , there are steps open to you before you do the
reporting thing .
You choose to ignore those steps , and insted you've demonstrated a
generalised world view in wich there are the Good Guys(TM) , and the
Bad Guys(TM) -- with each getting a different treatment .
I'm sorry to say , but if your legal systm (among others)woud work
under those princibles , you'd be in a sorry place right now .
You didn't give Ryan a chance to exhonerate himself before placeing
him in front of a legal fireing squad .
Now from what I hear , Ryan woud no doubt have refused to remove the
pics if you had asked him to do so .
But the point is that you didn't give him that chance .
And that is why instead of coming across like a law abiding citizen ,
you came across (to me) as a snitch .
And that is also why , that insted of joining Zob in congratulating
you , I make an ass of myself by deffending someone who maybe dosen't
diserve such a diffense .
Because there's a way and a time to do thigs properly .
And when I look at the intro of your post , I see a cheap rip-off of
Hooper_X's post : "who likes me and who hates me on ATT ?" , followed
by what is essentially a : " HA HA , I showed them jerks ... , and
look they even made a special webphage just to thank me " .
Dude ... , this just lacks class ... , or maybe it has class ... ,
that of a tabloid .
And I'm honestly sorry to have to say that , because I know that
you've had good intentions to act against something that was illegal .
> > And if anyone else feels the need to directly or indirectly threaten
> > others within this fandom with legal action inspired by personal
> > pre-conceptions ,
>
> Aha, so adhering to Hasbro's and 3H's explicitly stated, perfectly
> reasonable wishes constitutes personal pre-conceptions. I see.
No , but the following statments from your own post do :
"Being cut off from such a cesspool hardly puts a crinkle in my life"
"let's see what idiocy's going on on the Seibertron forums. Those
idiots
crack me up."
Useing souch endearing terms boast of pre-conceptions , but you
yourself said that there are Fans , and then there is Ryan ... ;
Pre-conceptions indeed .
> > -Gabi. ... because you know that if you have two legal threats in
> > less than a year , with bouth relating to contributing pepole within
> > our fandom ... , that there's just something rotten in paradise ...
>
> Bad news. Paradise was lost a long, long time ago.
But Paradise can be regained , partially at least .
It's all a matter of how much we tear it apart in the first place .
-Gabi.
And no , even I don't dream of Raksha and Tut holding hands and
singing Kumbaya my Lord! Kumbaya!
But it makes for nice mental imige . :-)
Coltrane's Lament
> Because there's a way and a time to do thigs properly .
> And when I look at the intro of your post , I see a cheap rip-off of
> Hooper_X's post : "who likes me and who hates me on ATT ?" , followed
> by what is essentially a : " HA HA , I showed them jerks ... , and
> look they even made a special webphage just to thank me " .
Ouch. Hey, regardless of whether you like or hate Suspy, comparing him to
Hooper_X is a looooooooooooooooooow blow...
-Colt
Suspsy
> 1) If one gets spoiled (how many years has it been now -- 3 years ?)
> with exposed exclusives , one has the right (a mis-guided right but a
> right non the less) to expect things to go on like they have .
And by that same token, Hasbro, 3H, and other fans have a right to
tell that one to stop acting like a spoiled brat and show some
patience and maturity.
> "A" says : "I wanna see the BC exclusives !" and "B" asks him : "Why
> ?"
> "A" will respond with :"Well I saw them before the convention for 3
> years now , so why shoud this year be any different ?!?" .
> And that's what I said -- it's a misguided notion , but it _is_ there
> !
And because it's an extremely misguided and selfish notion, it has no
real bearing at all in this debate. Next.
> 2) Add to that the precident set by 3H last year , with the unvailing
> of one of their exclusives before BC
Actually, they first did it in 1999 with an ad containing Windrazor.
(why they did that is open to
> debate) , wich added to the feeling of some pepole (not me
> neccesseraly) that it was somehow "OK" to see the exclusives before
> the convention .
And it apparently never occurred to these people that since the
exclusives are the PROPERTY of 3H, that means that 3H and _ONLY_ 3H
has the right to unveil them when, where, and how they choose.
> Denying this , or calling pepole names , or reporting them to Hasbro
> first , without explaining to them first _why_ they are in error , and
> why they shoud behave differently -- it's just wrong .
By that same token, if I were to witness someone vandalizing a car, I
shouldn't call the police and report the incident, but should instead
try and reason with the perpetrator, even though there's a good chance
he'd either laugh at me or assault me.
Now THAT is wrong.
> > Right, an unauthorized, unlawful preview that hurts relations between
> > Hasbro, 3H, and the fandom.
>
> If I knew how and who stole these toys (along the years) , I'd give
> you a more detailed answer .
> As it it , I'll allow myself to be naive enough to say that I don't
> see how this has hurt Hasbro .
Well, let's see:
1. It gives them a negative and wrong impression of the fandom.
2. It hurts their relationship with 3H Productions.
3. It can lead them to conclude that harsher methods need to be taken
with regards to incidents such as these---which hurts the fandom as
well.
4. It's a slap in the faces of the men and women like Aaron Archer and
Michelle Field who honestly care about the fandom and have made all
sorts of appreciative gestures.
Is that enough for you, Gabi, or should I go further?
> But I fully understand how this has hurt 1H
3H, Gabi, not 1H. Take loaded comments like that someplace else.
> > Clearly, you haven't been reading all the wretched vitriole taking place on
> > Energon Hub, ADC, and the 2005 Boards.
>
> Clearly .
> I preffer the flame free enviorment of ATT ;-) , along with an
> ez-board or two .
Fair enough, but as a result of that decision, you are significantly
underinformed, which makes you less qualified to comment on any of
this.
> BTW , if they primarily did it for the 100.000 hits , does that mean
> that many-many-many... fans actually wanted to see the exclusives
> before BC ?
Completely irrelevant. Next.
> Just consider for a moment if you will , what does _that_ exactly say
> about our fandom , hmmm ?!
Nothing positive, that's for sure.
> > That doesn't diminish the immorality of their actions in the least.
>
> Cearful now ... , as you are standing in a pit or immorality .
> Or is that a pit of accessorys to immorality ?!
> You know , all those immoral fans and TF enthusiasts who made up that
> 100.000 hits .
> Cause they sure didn't come out of nowhere .
Oh, I'm not saying all of them are immoral. Chances are a good number
of them aren't even aware that this sort of thing is illegal and
immoral. That being said, there's also probably a good number who just
don't care. And that's sad.
> I woud however like it if the exclusives , or some of them at least
> were made officially public before the convention , like last year .
> Now like I've said , I don't know what prompted 3H to do that last
> year , but I belive that it was a good promotional move , just as I
> belive that keeping _some_ surprises is okay too , for the fans who
> like that sort of thing .
That's fine, but the thing is, it's not your call to make. It's 3H's
call and 3H's call alone. Why is this so difficult for so many people
to comprehend?
> No offense Susp , but if even if I had the time to do that , I'd
> choose to spend it in a different manner .
> And no , this has nothing to do with staying willfully ignorant .
Could've fooled me.
> As to respect , 3H and 1H have my respect .
Again, take your Glen-bashing someplace else. I'm sick and tired of
hearing that shit.
> But I also respect the 100.000 pepole who wanted to see the pics --
> who wanted to get a glimpse of the exclusives .
> You see , I may diragree with posting the pics (aka the stolen
> material) , but once posted , I also respect the 100.000 pepole who
> saw them , and I have no moral qualms about that .
Once again, you are stating something which is perfectly reasonable,
yet completely beside the point.
> If it comes down to the numbers
It doesn't. Next.
> Hey , Rik is still arroud in a way ... , but where was I --
> Ok , I've said before that I woudn't try to force my sense of morality
> on you (or anyone) , but what you've just said didn't convince me of
> your sopposed "rightness" to treat one fan differently than any other
*shrug*
> If you've noticed , I've implyed in my pevious post that you've come
> into this situation carrying preconceptions about Ryan .
Actually, I had no opinion at all of Ryan until, y'know, he ignored
my inqueries, insulted me personally, and banned me from his site.
> > As such, whereas I would've confronted Rik, Zob,
> > or Nightwind first before alerting Hasbro and 3H,
>
> And now you said it yourself -- this is the way you woud have acted
> with pepole you respect .
Okay, I see what the problem is here, and it's partly my fault. I did
not *immediately* contact Hasbro; I contacted Ryan and Prof. Smooth
first. THEN, after they made it painfully clear they didn't care what
anyone else thought, I contacted Hasbro.
I should've made that clearer in my initial post. Nevertheless, your
point is moot.
> And here is where our basic notions clash .
> See , I woudn't act like that with _anyone_ without trying to clear
> things up via e-mail first .
See above.
> Whatever they might have done in the past has no direct rellevance to
> the case before us today . (now I'm talking like Mary)
How do you know that? Do you even know about any of Seibertron.com's
previous transgressions? Because I have one word for you: COMICS.
> But I guess that I won't be able to convince you that I'm right here ,
You're not.
> Perhaps you will , perhaps you won't .
> Let me ask you this -- have _you_ seen the pics we're talking about ?
I never once denied that I had. I will say, however, that prior to
viewing them, I had no idea that they were of an OTFCC exclusive. And
as soon as I saw what it was (I knew instantly because of a certain
image on the OTFCC site), I cussed aloud.
> I'm just curious to see if you are "above us" somehow by covering your
> eyes when you've had the opportunity to see these pice or any leaked
> pics of exclusives over the years ,
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Don't.
or are you motivated not only by a
> sense of justice but also by a need to stick it to Ryan becaus of his
> past , or because what you think of him as a person ?
Well, you see, after being ignored, insulted, and banned (I love
repeating myself), I do indeed feel a certain bit of satisfaction in
watching Seibertron.com sink even further into its self-dug hole.
Given how I've been treated, I don't see how I can be faulted for it.
> Two princibles actually :
> a) Don't get a fellow fan in trouble out of spite .
It wasn't out of spite. It was out of a sense of what's right.
> b) If you have to resort to legal intervention , try to exauhst every
> option beforhand .
Tried that and it didn't work.
> And as I've said , there are steps open to you before you do the
> reporting thing .
> You choose to ignore those steps ,
No, I didn't.
> Now from what I hear , Ryan woud no doubt have refused to remove the
> pics if you had asked him to do so .
You are correct there.
> But the point is that you didn't give him that chance .
Yes, WE did.
> And that is why instead of coming across like a law abiding citizen ,
> you came across (to me) as a snitch .
*shrug* I'm satisfied with how I've explained the situation, and if
you still insist that I'm a snitch, well, I can't put it any better
than to simply say that I don't care.
> And that is also why , that insted of joining Zob in congratulating
> you , I make an ass of myself by deffending someone who maybe dosen't
> diserve such a diffense .
Here you are again correct.
> And when I look at the intro of your post , I see a cheap rip-off of
> Hooper_X's post : "who likes me and who hates me on ATT ?" , followed
> by what is essentially a : " HA HA , I showed them jerks ... , and
> look they even made a special webphage just to thank me " .
That's okay. I'd much sooner be associated with Hoop than you.
> > Aha, so adhering to Hasbro's and 3H's explicitly stated, perfectly
> > reasonable wishes constitutes personal pre-conceptions. I see.
>
> No , but the following statments from your own post do :
> "Being cut off from such a cesspool hardly puts a crinkle in my life"
> "let's see what idiocy's going on on the Seibertron forums. Those
> idiots
> crack me up."
>
> Useing souch endearing terms boast of pre-conceptions
No, I used those terms because by then, Ryan had aptly demonstrated to
me and countless other people in #wiigii!, Allspark, ADC, and
Transfandom what a jagoff he is.
And Gabi, I know this will sound petty, but it'd be really great if
you could type properly. You're clearly not a moron, but your posts
really lose a lot of punch, IMHO, due to the overabundance of spelling
errors.
Susp
"Weapons can win battles, but words can win wars." -Hubcap
Zobovor the Towel Technician
<snip>
Hey, why'd you go and change your screen name? "Coltrane's Lamentation" had a
much better ring to it. (You got my vote in the Trannies for coolest online
handle, just so's you know.)
Coltrane's Lamentation
I uh...don't know??! (checks) Shoot. When I formatted this hd to prepare
it better for my work, I went with some old old settings I had installed.
All is better now!!
And thanks! I appreciate that vote (didn't even know about it).
-Coltrane (can't wait for Soundwave...that and Predaking...those two toys
and I can die happy)
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> > It is however very sad ... , and so pathetic that I'm haveing trouble
> > finding words that match this situation .
> >
>
> I'll tell you what I find pathetic (and no, this is not aimed directly
> at Gabi).
Woohoo ... , I think ... . :-)
>
> I cannot BELIEVE the sheer blind vandalism that Seibertron is
> perpetuating on the rest of the fandom, and that people are supporting
> them for it.
Vandalism ... , I don't know about that .
But if they did get 100.000 hits simply becaus of those pics then I
for one woud take that as a sign ... , a sign that that many pepole
either didn't cear about what Hasbro asked of us , or that they were
not aware that they asked us not to promote pics of prototypes in the
first place .
> Hasbro has made a simple request in the past: don't put
> up these images of stolen prototypes. 3H has made similar requests
> regarding the appearance of convention exclusives prior to the
> convention itself.
Not to promote my own ignorance or anything ... -- ok , ok , I will
promote my own ignorance just for the sake of this discussion -- I for
one didn't hear of this request by Hasbro before ... , at all !!!!!
It's logical that 3H woud ask something like this , but as I've said ,
I didn't hear / see any big announcment made by Hasbro about this .
But now , as I'm not complitley down with the stupid , I understand ,
and I suppose many more of us understand that apperantly souch a
request was made by Hasbro , and hopefully pepole will be more
cearfull about this matter in the future .
Sure , next year's stolen exclusives will be circulated by e-mail ,
but ... , at least they won't be out in the open .
>Now what do we see? Seibertron.com willingly going
> against these simple requests in a supposed attempt to "bring the fans
> what they want".
If I'm not mistaken , the pics were removed , so what's the big deal ?
Sure , there may be some additional sword rattleing by Seibertron ,
promises of "finding out exactly what is legal to display and what's
not" , but in the end it's over , right ?
> This is the biggest load of crap I have EVER heard from a website
> relating to Transformers, and I am truly ashamed that this element
> exists within our fandom.
FYI , Seibertron was not the only website that promoted the prototypes
.
Sure , the pics have been removed from other websites as well , but
the point remains that there is a good chance that not all the
websites that promoted these pics were out to stick it to The Man and
so forth .
The good thing that has come out of all this bellyacheing is that the
knolidge is out there about Hasbro's wishes .
I can only wish that it coud have been made public without the legal
threats .
> Apparently, they're doing this when no other sites will because they
> believe this is all some sort of conspiracy against them.
I will only say that other sites have promoted this material as well .
And no , I won't name names .
But this fact takes the wind out of Ryans arguments as well as yours .
Ryan isn't the hero he wishes to be , but I'll tell you that I don't
really love this witch hunt against him and his crew either .
I thought that we were past the point where we take one element in our
fandom and hit them with everything we can just becaus we can .
Now I know that that was not your intention , but ... , well , it
seems that the hate plauge still exists .
I'm just encourigeing everyone not to fan the flames .
It's like ... , I don't know ... , over ?!?
> Hasbro is *not* going to cave
> and cower before Seibertron.com, they'll simply come down harder. And
> what does that mean for the rest of us? We may not get *any* more
> sneak advances ahead of time.
But I thought that that was what this was all about .
No more previews of the BC exclusives .
But I share your concerns . I too belive that companys souch as Hasbro
, or 1H don't play a game of "there are trustworthy elements in the TF
fandom and there are untrustworthy ones" .
They don't have the time .
So this may yet fuck us all ... whoopteedoo ... ;
> For so long, the fandom has asked and
> begged for Hasbro to listen to us, to try things that please us as
> well as the current market, aka The Kids. And what does Seibertron do?
> Throw the simple requests HAsbro makes of us back in their face, and
> claim the moral right .
Ryan was wrong but now it's hopefully over -- till next year . :-)
> It's been said elsewhere in this thread that it was echoing
juvenile
> antics from the schoolyard. Well, as far as I can tell,
> Seibertron.com is that grou of kids that wouldn't shut the hell up
> when the teacher asked for silence, and the whole class got kept in
> for an hour's detention. And yet apparently, they're being cheered on
> by some kids for "striking out against the Man".
If you've read the relevant thread , I think you'll find that most
pepole agree with what Suspsy did .
What I put to question was the way he did it .
I for one am not looking for an apology from Ryan and his friends .
I don't want him to tell me that I , or you were right and that they
were wrong . Is that what you are looking for ?
And another thing , NO OFFENSE (really) but hasen't it been said
before that the concerns and issues of other boards are not the
concerns of ATT ?
When the ALLSPARK buesness was going on , a number of pepole have
asked to keep that off ATT .
Aow I'm asking you , all of you to stop this pointless bitching about
Seibertron .
It gives undue attention to Seibertron , and it creates pointless
problems here .
> And likewise on the same note, they do the same to 3H and try to
> justify it with claims like "I wasn't going anyway", and "People want
> to know what they're paying for".
And I just don't cear about that . Any of it .
The only thing that I cear about is an attempt at fairness with other
fans , and in this case the 100.000 hits that Seibertron got .
I find that interesting ... , from an intellectual POV .
(snipple)
> As for their claims that the fandom is apparently going to boycott
> Hasbro products, etc? I'm laughing myself stupid over the thought that
> their overinflated egos are so swollen they believe themselves the
> voice of the majority .
And you know what gives them that overinflated egos ?
100.000 hits .
That and discussions like these .
Peace ,
-Gabi.
Ground Zero
> > with exposed exclusives , one has the right (a mis-guided right but a
> > right non the less) to expect things to go on like they have .
>
> And by that same token, Hasbro, 3H, and other fans have a right to
> tell that one to stop acting like a spoiled brat and show some
> patience and maturity.
You do read ATT correct? Your expectations are far too high.
> > 2) Add to that the precident set by 3H last year , with the unvailing
> > of one of their exclusives before BC
>
> Actually, they first did it in 1999 with an ad containing Windrazor.
They have occasionally shown a teaser -- like Windrazor in '99 and Cyclonus
last year. But that doesn't have to set a standard.
> And it apparently never occurred to these people that since the
> exclusives are the PROPERTY of 3H, that means that 3H and _ONLY_ 3H
> has the right to unveil them when, where, and how they choose.
They've really got to find out how the images got leaked. This whole thing
is a damn shame.
> By that same token, if I were to witness someone vandalizing a car, I
> shouldn't call the police and report the incident, but should instead
> try and reason with the perpetrator, even though there's a good chance
> he'd either laugh at me or assault me.
>
> Now THAT is wrong.
You didn't do any wrong by informing Hasbro or 3H. You could have also
tried starting petitions, or an email campain to get other sites to take the
images down. Instead, you just got into a heated flame war with a message
board owner, and came here crying poor me and looking for a pat on the back
for your whisle blowing. Most of us have no problem with what you did, and
most of us agree it's a shame the images were leaked. However, many of the
angry posters here are pissed mainly because of your self-righteous attitude
about the matter. You're mostly in the right, but you're being attacked
primarily because you're being a dick about the whole deal.
> > If I knew how and who stole these toys (along the years) , I'd give
> > you a more detailed answer .
> > As it it , I'll allow myself to be naive enough to say that I don't
> > see how this has hurt Hasbro .
>
> Well, let's see:
>
> 1. It gives them a negative and wrong impression of the fandom.
Compared to what? I mean, we do have to consider that it is the interenet,
and let's consider what crap we've pulled in the past. *caugh* Bob Forward
*caugh*
> 2. It hurts their relationship with 3H Productions.
See above.
> 3. It can lead them to conclude that harsher methods need to be taken
> with regards to incidents such as these---which hurts the fandom as
> well.
They should take harsher measures in regards to their employees.
> 4. It's a slap in the faces of the men and women like Aaron Archer and
> Michelle Field who honestly care about the fandom and have made all
> sorts of appreciative gestures.
You do have a point there.
> Fair enough, but as a result of that decision, you are significantly
> underinformed, which makes you less qualified to comment on any of
> this.
Again, informed means doing some legal research, not reading some forum.
You're making yourself sound like a propagator of rumour and
misinformation -- not fact.
> > BTW , if they primarily did it for the 100.000 hits , does that mean
> > that many-many-many... fans actually wanted to see the exclusives
> > before BC ?
>
> Completely irrelevant. Next.
Actaully, he does have a good point. It's hardly irrelavent. However,
hit's never really fluctuated much during the time the exclusives were
posted.
> > Just consider for a moment if you will , what does _that_ exactly say
> > about our fandom , hmmm ?!
>
> Nothing positive, that's for sure.
We're exited about the exclusives. Gee, that sounds positive to me.
> Oh, I'm not saying all of them are immoral. Chances are a good number
> of them aren't even aware that this sort of thing is illegal and
> immoral. That being said, there's also probably a good number who just
> don't care. And that's sad.
*plays worlds smallest violyn*
> That's fine, but the thing is, it's not your call to make. It's 3H's
> call and 3H's call alone. Why is this so difficult for so many people
> to comprehend?
The images got stolen and leaked to the internet. Word travels fast, and
once it's out there, they're pretty much screwed. They're going to have to
try taking further measures to ensure the images arn't leaked beforehand.
Unfortunatly, they can't hold the fandom accountable for wanting to see the
exclusives. Curiosity is simply human nature.
-GZ
SEIBERTRON
> Hello ATT.
>
> I'll be the first to admit that opinions about me are sharply divided. Some
> people like me. Others dislike me. And some, like our good friend Ryan over
> at Seibertron.com, truly, deeply hate me.
Suspy,
I don't hate you at all. You are welcome to your own opinion. That's
what life is all about. Speaking of which, I thought I would post our
converations which led up to the comment you posted of mine above so
people could draw their own conclusions. I think that's only fair.
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
MESSAGE #1 FROM SUSPY
>
> You guys are really something.
>
> Have you no consideration for anyone at all? Do you not comprehend the FACT that these OTFCC exclusives are the property of 3H Prod., and thus it is THEIR privilege to unveil them when THEY choose to? Do you not understand that you have ruined the surprise for them, that you have RUINED something they were looking forward to? Do you not care?
>
> I hope none of you are ever allowed to attend OTFCC or any Hasbro event ever again. You deserve far worse.
>
> Stop it.
>
> Susp
MY RESPONSE
Please quit looking at my news section if it bothers you so much. This
is a
news reporting service ... we report news when it happens. If you
don't
like spoilers - please don't visit the news section.
Ryan
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
SUSPY'S REPLY
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: News & Rumors
> Please quit looking at my news section if it bothers you so much. This is
a
> news reporting service ... we report news when it happens. If you don't
> like spoilers - please don't visit the news section.
Wow, way to completely avoid the issue at hand, Ryan. Tell me, do you
have
any respect for Hasbro or 3H Productions whatsoever? You sure haven't
shown
any.
Susp
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
MY REPLY
Whatever man. That's between myself and Hasbro, not between you and
me.
ryan
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
MY NEXT REPLY
Who do you think you are getting into my business man? If you want to
make
it an issue, it's about freedom of speech. Go back to whatever
Transformers
website you belong to that is kissing ass because they made a deal
with
Hasbro. I'm doing my own thing over here on SEIBERTRON. If you don't
like it
leave us alone. Better yet, thanks for the IP address and ISP
information
... have fun viewing the site now.
Ryan
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
SUSPY'S REPLY
> Who do you think you are getting into my business man? If you want to make
> it an issue, it's about freedom of speech.
Bullshit.
It's about you posting images of prototypes that are the property of
Hasbro
and 3H Productions, despite their *explicit* wishes to the contrary.
Your
freedom ends where theirs begins, bub.
Go back to whatever Transformers
> website you belong to that is kissing ass because they made a deal with
> Hasbro.
Where'd you get the idea that I belong to any site? Welcome to
Paranoid
City, population one.
>I'm doing my own thing over here on SEIBERTRON.
And a truly shitty thing it is.
If you don't like it
> leave us alone. Better yet, thanks for the IP address and ISP information
> ... have fun viewing the site now.
I won't.
Susp
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
MY REPLY
Hasbro has NEVER contacted me regarding this issue. When Hasbro
contacts me
regarding this issue, I will respect their wish. I don't believe that
Hasbro has made any demands, Suspy. If you believe the shit that
tfw2005,
transfandom, and the other sites are stating on their sites about what
Hasbro has said, you've fallen for their story.
How about this twist: how about Orson (aka Aaron Archer) couldn't stay
on a
Transformers website if they continued posting stuff about upcoming
products? So he strikes a deal with them: "If you guys stop posting
leaked
stuff, I'll provide you guys with official teaser information from
Hasbro."
How about that? How about that's as official as it ever got or how
about
it's only the sites that Hasbro deals with directly that has to
conform to
that? Not sites that don't work directly with Hasbro - which I do not
nor
do I want to.
As for viewing the site, you can't from your rogers.com connection. I
thought I'd help you out so you won't have any more spoilers.
ryan
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
SUSPY'S REPLY
> Hasbro has NEVER contacted me regarding this issue. When Hasbro contacts
me
> regarding this issue, I will respect their wish.
Yeah, RIGHT.
I don't believe that
> Hasbro has made any demands, Suspy. If you believe the shit that tfw2005,
> transfandom, and the other sites are stating on their sites about what
> Hasbro has said, you've fallen for their story.
Suuuuuuuuuuure. Altered States, Transfandom, Ben Yee, and everyone
else lied
about what Hasbro said regarding images of prototypes. What ARE you
smoking
over there?
> How about this twist: how about Orson (aka Aaron Archer) couldn't stay on
a
> Transformers website if they continued posting stuff about upcoming
> products? So he strikes a deal with them: "If you guys stop posting
leaked
> stuff, I'll provide you guys with official teaser information from
Hasbro."
> How about that? How about that's as official as it ever got or how about
> it's only the sites that Hasbro deals with directly that has to conform to
> that? Not sites that don't work directly with Hasbro - which I do not nor
> do I want to.
How about that's the funniest thing I've heard all week--and the most
obviously false.
And spare me your anti-establishment bullshit. You've spewed enough
bullshit
for one evening.
> As for viewing the site, you can't from your rogers.com connection. I
> thought I'd help you out so you won't have any more spoilers.
. . . and you think that upsets me in any way? Man, you're an even
bigger
loser than I thought. BTW, did you take into consideration all the
thousands
and thousands of other Rogers users before you pulled this
unimpressive
stunt?
By the way, since you're such a huge fan of freedom of speech, it
might
interest you to know that hiding behind the first amendment to justify
the
posting of what amounts to be Hasbro/OTFCC trade secrets is tenuous at
best
and ludicrous at worst. Hell, you're not even arguing the RIGHT PART
of the
first amendment, you idiot. A strict reading of the amendment details
that
while the press is "free" to publish whatever they please, they are
also
open to prosecution from private parties.
I strongly suggest you take that into account, you worthless fucking
moron.
Susp
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
MY RESPONSE
You're just an angry, angry man, aren't you. Let's leave it at us not
talking to each other in the future. I'm sure you have better things
to do
and I certainly have better things to do than listen to your
jibberish.
As for rogers, it wasn't rogers I banned. Just your IP address that's
all
yours courtesty of your cable or DSL connection.
Ryan
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
SUSPY'S RESPONSE
> You're just an angry, angry man, aren't you.
Look who's talking.
Let's leave it at us not
> talking to each other in the future. I'm sure you have better things to
do
> and I certainly have better things to do than listen to your jibberish.
Can't argue with that. You have been amusing though. In a perverse
way.
> As for rogers, it wasn't rogers I banned. Just your IP address that's all
> yours courtesty of your cable or DSL connection.
So? It's still an astoundingly petty, childish thing to do. Really,
you're
your own worst enemy.
You poor creature.
Susp
###################################################
###################################################
###################################################
SUSPY'S NEXT MESSAGE
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:29 PM
Subject: You Lose
> I guess that email I sent to Hasbro Legal, along with all the other emails,
> really made a difference. Life truly is good.
>
> Loser.
>
> Susp
SEIBERTRON
>
> Susp
Man, you were right. It is asshole. My bad.
SEIBERTRON
> a doubt one of the most flattering things that's ever happened to me as a
> member of this fandom. If a poor creature like Ryan hates me so much that
> he'd actually take the time to construct a special page just for me, it
> any doubt, natch.
>
> Ryan, if you're reading this, you've made these past two days truly
> entertaining. Merci beaucoup.
>
> Oh, and it's "asshole," not "ass hole." Learn proper English already.
>
> Susp
Hey Suspy,
I'm not angry or hateful about or toward you. There's no need for
that. We both have better things to do. I look at this as a learning
experience for both of us. I'm glad I was able to make the last few
days entertaining for you. Cheap entertainment indeed. Well, have a
good day man. I'm going to go add some more images to the site for
everyone's enjoyment.
See ya on the flip side!
Ryan
Desperadimus Prime
>converations which led up to the comment you posted of mine above so
>people could draw their own conclusions. I think that's only fair.
This is, of course, none of my business. However, you may want to reconsider
posting conversations which post you in an unfavorable light, Seibertron. It's
not about freedom of speech. Speech is free only until the point where it
violates someone else's rights. Your posting of the pictures of the stolen
prototypes violated 3H's right to unveil their own exclusive product to the
fans. Whether or not you see it this way is immaterial. Fact is, you've
seriously jeopardized the future of Hasbro's dealing with the fandom. Without
3H, I think there's every reason to believe that Hasbro would never have
imported the reissues. 3H showed Hasbro that there are fans out there willing
to try and help them get their products more recognition. What you've done has
hurt that perception immeasurably.
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> [snip]
Man, you have got some strange priorities. I would have thought you
wouldn't want to shoot yourself in the foot like this. Did you actually
think making this exchange public would make you look better?
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Brian Kilby
"Steve-o Stonebraker" <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnbd1skn....@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu...
> On 25 May 2003 09:05:53 -0700, SEIBERTRON wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> Man, you have got some strange priorities. I would have thought you
> wouldn't want to shoot yourself in the foot like this. Did you actually
> think making this exchange public would make you look better?
YES. He did. That's the scary thing.
Suspsy
> They have occasionally shown a teaser -- like Windrazor in '99 and
Cyclonus
> last year. But that doesn't have to set a standard.
Very true.
> > And it apparently never occurred to these people that since the
> > exclusives are the PROPERTY of 3H, that means that 3H and _ONLY_ 3H
> > has the right to unveil them when, where, and how they choose.
>
> They've really got to find out how the images got leaked. This whole
thing
> is a damn shame.
True again.
> You didn't do any wrong by informing Hasbro or 3H.
I knew that.
Instead, you just got into a heated flame war with a message
> board owner, and came here crying poor me and looking for a pat on the
back
> for your whisle blowing.
I wasn't crying poor me at all. I simply felt what Ryan did to me was much
too amusing to keep to myself.
However, many of the
> angry posters here are pissed mainly because of your self-righteous
attitude
> about the matter. You're mostly in the right, but you're being attacked
> primarily because you're being a dick about the whole deal.
. . . and I'm supposed to CARE what two or three angry people think of me?
> > 1. It gives them a negative and wrong impression of the fandom.
>
> Compared to what? I mean, we do have to consider that it is the
interenet,
> and let's consider what crap we've pulled in the past. *caugh* Bob
Forward
> *caugh*
All the more reason why this sort of thing shouldn't happen then.
> > 2. It hurts their relationship with 3H Productions.
>
> See above.
See above.
> Again, informed means doing some legal research, not reading some forum.
I don't really have to do any legal research---that's Hasbro's job. Mine was
just to report a crime.
> You're making yourself sound like a propagator of rumour and
> misinformation -- not fact.
Show me precisely where I've propagated misinformation.
> > Completely irrelevant. Next.
>
> Actaully, he does have a good point. It's hardly irrelavent.
It is indeed irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many people wanted to view
the exclusives; they're still 3H's property to do with as they alone please.
> The images got stolen and leaked to the internet. Word travels fast, and
> once it's out there, they're pretty much screwed. They're going to have
to
> try taking further measures to ensure the images arn't leaked beforehand.
> Unfortunatly, they can't hold the fandom accountable for wanting to see
the
> exclusives. Curiosity is simply human nature.
And people shouldn't necessarily be blamed for mistakes. But they should pay
for them.
Susp
"For a world without evil, you need a universe without evil." -Countdown
Suspsy
<snipped>
As I told you in one of my emails, Ryan, you truly are your own worst enemy.
Susp, makes my task a lot easier.
"To know others, you must first know yourself." -Goldbug
Cyberchild
sense to know that there's a possibility that people under age read this
group....
Cyb
"SEIBERTRON" <webm...@seibertron.com> schreef in bericht
news:c0b40492.03052...@posting.google.com...
Pyre
> Instead, you just got into a heated flame war with a message
> board owner, and came here crying poor me
No he didn't. He came here laughing and pointing and saying "Look at what
this dumbass did" and personally, I agree with him.
> and looking for a pat on the back
> for your whisle blowing.
For which he deserves. Seibertron was in the clearly in the wrong and
wouldn't take down the images unless something was done. Susp, and others
as well, did it and he was right to do so.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"Nothing to gain, hollow and alone
and the fault is my own, and the fault is my own"
Pyre
>
> You're mostly in the right, but you're being attacked
> primarily because you're being a dick about the whole deal.
>
And Seibertron isn't? For days they had a picture of Stalin blindfolded
on their page. The webmaster has ranted and raved about how his first
amendment rights have been violated, which they haven't because he has no
rights in this matter, and about how "Big Brother is watching" and so
forth. Do I even have to bring up the matter of how they RIPPED PEOPLE
OFF and have yet to pay those people back or give them the merchandise
they ordered?
Pyre
>
> Not to promote my own ignorance or anything ... -- ok , ok , I will
> promote my own ignorance just for the sake of this discussion -- I for
> one didn't hear of this request by Hasbro before ... , at all !!!!!
>
Here's a link to ASM's report on the Hasbro Collector's Event:
http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/hce_2003/hce_1.php
Fifth paragraph in the intro states this: He then went on to make an
official statement regarding the practice of posting leaked images and
prototype images on websites. "Leaked images or prototypes that are posted
without Hasbro's permission are not acceptable." He continued: "We will
not ignore and we will not turn our back on [sites that post such images.]"
Pyre
>
The links were taken down from the front page, yes. But the images are
still on their server. Those images are still linked to on their "News"
page. So, no, they weren't removed.
SEIBERTRON
>
> was real? That was really funny.
>
I didn't believe that and removed the image shortly after it was
posted. Someone on my site was duped by someone being an ass. I
resolved the issue as soon as i logged on. It is a well known fact
that, with the except of the first few Botcons, that the "exclusives"
are figures which retailed 2 years prior.
Desperadimus Prime
>that, with the except of the first few Botcons, that the "exclusives"
>are figures which retailed 2 years prior.
One year prior, actually.
Desperadimus Prime
>>that, with the except of the first few Botcons, that the "exclusives"
>>are figures which retailed 2 years prior.
>
>One year prior, actually.
No, I'm sorry, it is 2 years prior.
Aaron F. Bourque
>> You gotta give that Seibertron.com are pretty dumb.
>>
>> Have you seen that they believed that Matt Marshal's
>> "exclusive" Break was real? That was really funny.
>>
>> Thomas Hamann
>
>I didn't believe that and removed the image shortly after it was
>posted. Someone on my site was duped by someone being an
>ass.
Someone was being an ass, all right. You.
If you don't have control over what gets put up on your site, you're
not much of an editor.
If you don't check the validity of what gets put on your site, you
aren't reporting *news*, you're reporting *rumors*.
You're the equivalent of an online Transformers Tabloid.
YOU ARE THE WEEKLY WORLD NEWS!
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming robot toys for ten-year-olds
http://members.aol.com/aaronbourque/cryotekwarning.jpg
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> > > As such, whereas I would've confronted Rik, Zob,
> > > or Nightwind first before alerting Hasbro and 3H,
> >
> > And now you said it yourself -- this is the way you woud have acted
> > with pepole you respect .
>
> Okay, I see what the problem is here, and it's partly my fault. I did
> not *immediately* contact Hasbro; I contacted Ryan and Prof. Smooth
> first. THEN, after they made it painfully clear they didn't care what
> anyone else thought, I contacted Hasbro.
>
> I should've made that clearer in my initial post. Nevertheless, your
> point is moot.
On the contrary , this point (along with several others ) is not moot
or irrelevant at all .
But this point is what matters to me the most for this simple reason :
If you would have had reported the steps you've taken in the correct
manner , then all this pointless debate would have been saved from
both of us .
See , it's not only about errors in spelling .... , but errors in
reporting as well .
Later ,
-Gabi.
Jackpot
>
> You know.... I find it ENDLESSLY AMUSING when I see people
> exert the MISTAKEN belief that the First Amendment protects
> them from *copyright infringement*.
>
> I laugh *every* time.
>
> And, no, I don't mean that "oh look what amusing nonsense is
> this" kind of laugh, either. I'm talking about the deep,
> dark, evil supervillain-y kind of laugh where I realize that
> there's an endless supply of billable hours out there for
> the taking.
NOW you're talking like a real lawyer! You had me worried there for a
little bit, but now I'm sure the real world poses no threats to you.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
Anyway, while I've got your ear... One of the pro-leaked-pics arguments
is that a mere photo is the property of the picture-taker. Let's give
the spy the benefit of the doubt and assume that the toys, themselves,
weren't stolen; rather, photos were snapped surreptitiously while the
toys were still in Hasbro/3H's possession.
This act has been compared to the "spy reports" that auto magazines and
Popular Mechanics and such often publish. Someone uses a telephoto lens
to take pictures of prototype cars being tested, and those photos appear
in magazines without any apparent legal hassles.
So what's the legal reality here?
(Now, when I've argued on the Seibertron.com boards, I've stayed away
from too much legal discussion because I figure the likely real-life
fact of the matter is that Hasbro can sic a pack of lawyers on anybody -
or everybody - in the fandom and make the law work the way they want it
to. We could pontificate till our faces turn blue, but it won't mean
jack if Hasbro brings out the big guns. Moreover, even if
Seibertron.com DOES have a legal right to show these pics, there are
still serious moral issues in doing so. My core contention isn't that
the act is ILLEGAL, but that it's WRONG. Despite that, though, I *am*
still curious about what the law really allows.)
> --Mery, who perhaps should have posted this as "Evil Mery".
A goatee doesn't become you.
- Jackpot (That gold sash, on the other hand.... rrrrOWR!)
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
|
| Art portfolio - TF and more:
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Desperadimus Prime
>this" kind of laugh, either. I'm talking about the deep,
>dark, evil supervillain-y kind of laugh where I realize that
>there's an endless supply of billable hours out there for
>the taking.
Ya see, Mery, this is why people love you. You're not a lawyer. That's not
befitting someone of your intellect. You are, in my estimation, an attorney.
Sounds better, I think. ;)
Desperadimus Prime
Make that Weekly Cybertron News. ;)
Jackpot
>
> Ya see, Mery, this is why people love you. You're not a lawyer.
> That's not befitting someone of your intellect. You are, in my
> estimation, an attorney. Sounds better, I think.
A barrister, even!
- Jackpot (who's everybody's favorite solicitor general.)
Suspsy
> > Okay, I see what the problem is here, and it's partly my fault. I did
> > not *immediately* contact Hasbro; I contacted Ryan and Prof. Smooth
> > first. THEN, after they made it painfully clear they didn't care what
> > anyone else thought, I contacted Hasbro.
> >
> > I should've made that clearer in my initial post. Nevertheless, your
> > point is moot.
>
> On the contrary , this point (along with several others ) is not moot
> or irrelevant at all .
Oh yes, it is.
> If you would have had reported the steps you've taken in the correct
> manner
For the last time, I DID. Are you as bad at reading English as you are at
writing it?
then all this pointless debate would have been saved from
> both of us .
If you think it's all pointless, why'd you even bother responding in the
first place? Don't try that passive-aggressive routine with me.
Susp
"To know your own limits, you must first know your foe's limits." -Bludgeon
Gabi T.M. D'Galvatron
> > > I should've made that clearer in my initial post. Nevertheless, your
> > > point is moot.
> >
> > On the contrary , this point (along with several others ) is not moot
> > or irrelevant at all .
>
> Oh yes, it is.
Oh no it .... sheesh ... :p
(I'm thinking .... , thinking about agreeing .... , agreeing to
disagree ... , oh I'm thinking ... about it soooo haaard .... )
> > If you would have had reported the steps you've taken in the correct
> > manner
>
> For the last time, I DID. Are you as bad at reading English as you are at
> writing it?
Nope .
However my next explanation will be the only one I have left to give
you ... , before I'll have to draw you a picture . Maybe that'll help
.
Now follow closely your previous two statements , and please don't
tell me that they are both the same -- because they're not :
First you've said : " I emailed Hasbro, 3H Productions, and, of
course, Ryan himself. " (note the order of your statement : Hasbro -
3H - Ryan )
Then much later you've said : "Okay, I see what the problem is here,
and
it's partly my fault. I did not *immediately* contact Hasbro; I
contacted
Ryan and Prof. Smooth first. THEN, after they made it painfully clear
they didn't care what anyone else thought, I contacted Hasbro. "
(this would make the order of your contacts : Ryan / Prof - Hasbro /
3H )
Now in my previous post , I've stated that had you phrased your
initial post the way you've posted it later (the _correct order_ of
event -- see above) , then I would not have had a reason to post in
this particular thread .
See my reason to post here was that I did not approve of the order in
which you've said you've acted .
As per your initial post , I was mislead by you to bealive that you
went to Hasbro first (behind Ryans back) and then contacted Ryan -- or
that you've contacted Ryan at the same time that you've contacted
Hasbro .
Read your own post , cause that's what it spells out .
As you've later went on and corrected the sequence of events ,
stating that you've contacted Ryan first , and Hasbro later -- that
was something that I had no problem with , as long as Ryan got a fair
warning from you , before you went to Hasbro .
Which lead me to the conclusion that if you'd have been a little more
clear in your initial post regarding the correct order of the events ,
I would not have responded at all .
Thus , from my POV , my participation in this thread was pointless and
in vain .
> then all this pointless debate would have been saved from
> > both of us .
>
> If you think it's all pointless, why'd you even bother responding in the
> first place?
(see above)
It wasn't pointless to me until it became such by your clarification .
And the pointless part refers to the fact that I don't enjoy fighting
in a pointless fight .
-Gabi.
Finback
> Vandalism ... , I don't know about that .
> But if they did get 100.000 hits simply becaus of those pics then I
> for one woud take that as a sign ... , a sign that that many pepole
> either didn't cear about what Hasbro asked of us , or that they were
> not aware that they asked us not to promote pics of prototypes in the
> first place .
Aptly, Seibertron.com has claimed that these 100K hits were in fact
due to their updated forum system, and not directly tied into the
pictures. Which dramatically skews the numbers against there being up
to one hundred thousand people viewing them. I'd doubt there are that
many online members of the fandom.
> Not to promote my own ignorance or anything ... -- ok , ok , I will
> promote my own ignorance just for the sake of this discussion -- I for
> one didn't hear of this request by Hasbro before ... , at all !!!!!
>
> It's logical that 3H woud ask something like this , but as I've said ,
> I didn't hear / see any big announcment made by Hasbro about this .
As Pyre has helpfully pointed out, Altered States Magazine put up a
declaration of Hasbro's terms on their website several months ago when
it first came up.
> If I'm not mistaken , the pics were removed , so what's the big deal ?
> Sure , there may be some additional sword rattleing by Seibertron ,
> promises of "finding out exactly what is legal to display and what's
> not" , but in the end it's over , right ?
No, because in the meantime, they are still claiming moral higher
ground, and that the fandom is being oppressed. If they had simply
done the right thing *in the first place*, none of this argument would
have happened.
> > This is the biggest load of crap I have EVER heard from a website
> > relating to Transformers, and I am truly ashamed that this element
> > exists within our fandom.
>
> FYI , Seibertron was not the only website that promoted the prototypes
> .
Correct. Hence my wording of "this element exists within our fandom".
Including sites and individuals *along* with Seibertron.
> Sure , the pics have been removed from other websites as well , but
> the point remains that there is a good chance that not all the
> websites that promoted these pics were out to stick it to The Man and
> so forth .
Tha's true. And they still should have known better.
> The good thing that has come out of all this bellyacheing is that the
> knolidge is out there about Hasbro's wishes .
> I can only wish that it coud have been made public without the legal
> threats .
Again, it *was* made public several months ago. Seibertron claimed
that since they *personally* didn't receive any notification, it
obviously didn't apply to them.
> I will only say that other sites have promoted this material as well .
> And no , I won't name names .
Why? Would that be more of the "tattletale" case you suggest? Me, I'm
all for pointing blame where blame should be. After all, how can one
boycott something if you don't know? And if Seibertron is willing to
suggest boycotting Hasbro product for a slight against them, I'd like
to suggest the fandom boycott Seibertron for their slight against the
strong bond that has developed with Hasbro in the past few years.
> I thought that we were past the point where we take one element in our
> fandom and hit them with everything we can just becaus we can .
I'm simply pointing at the noisiest rooster in the flock, in the hope
the others will notice the glinting axe.
> > Hasbro is *not* going to cave
> > and cower before Seibertron.com, they'll simply come down harder. And
> > what does that mean for the rest of us? We may not get *any* more
> > sneak advances ahead of time.
>
> But I thought that that was what this was all about .
> No more previews of the BC exclusives .
No, it's about their inability to recognise simple terms as provided
by Hasbro and 3H as provided several months ago.
> But I share your concerns . I too belive that companys souch as Hasbro
> , or 1H don't play a game of "there are trustworthy elements in the TF
> fandom and there are untrustworthy ones" .
> They don't have the time .
Also, please drop the pointless "1H" comments. The formal name,
whether one agrees with past actions by members or not, is "3H". All
this is really is waving a red flag around in the hopes one finds a
bull. It's like calling it "Hasblo" because you dislike their actions.
> If you've read the relevant thread , I think you'll find that most
> pepole agree with what Suspsy did .
> What I put to question was the way he did it .
What other way was there? He emailed Seibertron, they replied
negatively. He tried the peaceful path, and in the end, the final
option was to contact Hasbro.
> I for one am not looking for an apology from Ryan and his friends .
> I don't want him to tell me that I , or you were right and that they
> were wrong . Is that what you are looking for ?
No. I'm hoping this will develop into a situation where websites
actively think about what they are posting, and about the effects of
spoiling things that should not be spoiled.
> And another thing , NO OFFENSE (really) but hasen't it been said
> before that the concerns and issues of other boards are not the
> concerns of ATT ?
As far as I'm aware, ATT exists for the discussion of information
pertaining to the Transformers fandom - both directly as TF content,
and for issues stemming from it. Let us use an example. Let's say
Hasbro sees all this and decides, "Fine. No more news ahead of time."
And they simply stop all prior advance notice of toys, such as
promotional pictures, etc before they're on the shelves. And all this
is because of the actions of individuals on other online forums. Don't
you think that ATT, as perhaps still the largest online TF information
resource, deserves to be aware of the situation and *why* Hasbro would
take such a profound action? Likewise, should people here no longer
post links to, say, an interview with Simon Furman up on ASM or
Allspark? After all, what goes on on other sites is none of ATT's
business, right?
> And I just don't cear about that . Any of it .
> The only thing that I cear about is an attempt at fairness with other
> fans , and in this case the 100.000 hits that Seibertron got .
> I find that interesting ... , from an intellectual POV .
Again, this high value was not directly from the spoiled toys.
Finback at animail.net
"I can't play guitar.. well, I can't play accordian either, but I
thought it would be less noticeable."
Ground Zero
> > board owner, and came here crying poor me and looking for a pat on the
> back
> > for your whisle blowing.
>
> I wasn't crying poor me at all. I simply felt what Ryan did to me was much
> too amusing to keep to myself.
I can't say I agree with his actions. But I honestly question the reasons
behind propagating the mudsligning and dragging it onto att. The post could
have been more productive if, for example, you had asked for help from
others who thought having the pics up was a major foul. It may have sent a
much better message to Ryan.
> However, many of the
> > angry posters here are pissed mainly because of your self-righteous
> attitude
> > about the matter. You're mostly in the right, but you're being attacked
> > primarily because you're being a dick about the whole deal.
>
> . . . and I'm supposed to CARE what two or three angry people think of me?
You seem to. Why else would you have posted this? It didn't accomplish
anything but split att into those who think the actiosn of Ryan are good or
bad. Everyone KNEW about it, so you wern't spreading info. You didn't ask
for help to resolve it. You simply goated, pointed fingers, then bitched.
You definitly seem to care quite a deal what people think -- angry or
otherwise. I think the amount of people annoyed with the way you presented
your information has probably surprised you.
> > > 1. It gives them a negative and wrong impression of the fandom.
> >
> > Compared to what? I mean, we do have to consider that it is the
> interenet,
> > and let's consider what crap we've pulled in the past. *caugh* Bob
> Forward
> > *caugh*
>
> All the more reason why this sort of thing shouldn't happen then.
Again, I agree with you 100%. Most of the stuff you've said, I can't help
but agree with. I just wish you had presented yourself in a much more
professional manner and done something more productive with your original
post instead of mudsligning and essentially drawing a rift in the fandom
between those who support you, those who don't, and those like myself who do
support you and the principles you're trying to push, but think you're being
a dick about it.
> > Again, informed means doing some legal research, not reading some forum.
>
> I don't really have to do any legal research---that's Hasbro's job. Mine
was
> just to report a crime.
And you did. Congrats. But then, why did you bother to continue with the
matter? Why air out the dirty laundry between you and Ryan -- you've both
never been on good terms and his hostility towards you isn't simply a result
of your actions, but more of the fact that you were being a complete ass
about it in the first place. Instead of being professional, and simply
contacting Hasbro in order to allow them to do thier job, you got yourself
involved then dragged the fandom down with you.
> > You're making yourself sound like a propagator of rumour and
> > misinformation -- not fact.
>
> Show me precisely where I've propagated misinformation.
I didn't say you did. I'm saying that pointing people to forum discussions
as "proof" makes you sound like a tabloid.
> > The images got stolen and leaked to the internet. Word travels fast,
and
> > once it's out there, they're pretty much screwed. They're going to have
> to
> > try taking further measures to ensure the images arn't leaked
beforehand.
> > Unfortunatly, they can't hold the fandom accountable for wanting to see
> the
> > exclusives. Curiosity is simply human nature.
>
> And people shouldn't necessarily be blamed for mistakes. But they should
pay
> for them.
That's for the law to decide. Not you. I wish you'd stop acting like judge
and jury when you should just be acting like an anonymous tipster to Hasbro
and 3H. Instead of acting like a good citizen, you're acting like a
braggart.
-GZ
SEIBERTRON
before when ALL of the sites were posting these images? Were you
defending your current beliefs then? I stayed the course doing what I
thought was ok until HASBRO, not you, told me otherwise. I continued
doing what ALL of the Transformers sites were doing. When HASBRO
contacted me, I respected their wishes and did as asked.
What you guys are missing in the messages above is how I was being
treated by Suspy - something he neglects in mentioning. But it's
obvious you don't really care so that's beside the point.
I'm sorry if all of this has caused this much controversy. It was
never meant to. I'm sorry if you guys have nothing better to do than
debate business that truly involves just myself and Hasbro. Yes, it
can end up affecting you, but it boils down to being between myself
and Hasbro.
Again, I'm sorry if posting the convention exclusives ruined anything
for anyone. I was just doing on my site what was once accepted guys -
nothing more.
What bothers me most is that you guys are painting me to be a real bad
guy here when I'm not. If I had continued posting the CONVENTION
exclusive images after Hasbro asked me not to, then I would be the bad
guy. But I didn't. I did exactly as they asked.
I would also like to state that I am more interested in finding out
what is accepted by Hasbro than arguing about what each of us thinks
is the law. I want to know what Hasbro thinks is legit. What do they
like to see on our sites? What don't they like? I want to hear it
from Hasbro - I want to get to the root of the problem rather than us
sitting here debating about it endlessly when, in fact, none of us
really knows.
I get the feeling that this situation has been turned into a mountain
from a mole hill. Have you nothing better to do than dwell on this
situation? It's over. It's been over for 4 or 5 days. Seriously. You
guys apparently don't like me no matter what so let's just leave it at
that. Great. You guys don't like me. I don't care either way. I
will continue spending 20-40 hours per week on my website giving back
to the fans because that's what I enjoy doing. It doesn't matter
whether or not you guys like all of my hard work or me or my website.
There's enough people that do. And that's what matters most to me.
Again, I'm sorry if SEIBERTRON.com ruined anything for you guys. That
was never my intention. I'm sorry if you guys don't like my site
either or me for that matter. It's a shame that all of us fans can't
just get along. We all love Transformers and yet stupid shit like this
comes inbetween the one thing that should bring us altogether.
If, in the future, you guys have any problem with things that I am
doing, I am always open to calm, rational discussions. Attacking me
in an email will accomplish very little. Asking me about why I do
certain things and suggesting alternate ways of doing those things
while having a conversation discussing whatever the issue is will
always accomplish things better. I promise.
And I'm sorry that Suspy and I can't seem to have a decent
conversation. It's a shame. I would much rather he and I be on the
same playing field and would much rather we have rational discussions
regarding whatever.
Can we at least try to do this? I'm sure we can all accomplish a lot
more TOGETHER than separately. Please consider this guys, I am always
open to this. This arguing and fighting is senseless, ridiculous and
a waste of ALL of our time. I'm sure each and every one of us has
better things to be doing than arguing about something that has
already been handled.
I'm asking that the mudslinging end here. No smart ass remarks, no
snide remarks, no bullshit. If you guys want to discuss problems with
myself or my site rationally, I am happy to. If you guys just want to
keep throwing mud around, being smart asses, trying to see who's
wittier, or can get the last word in, then I'm done.
Until all are one, Transformers fans. Until all are one.
Pyre
> Why were you guys not defending your beliefs last year or the year
> before when ALL of the sites were posting these images?
At that time Hasbro hadn't said anything about it. But when they told us
3 months ago to stop, everyone but you respected their wishes.
> I stayed the course doing what I
> thought was ok until HASBRO, not you, told me otherwise.
They DID say not to. Wayne Charness, Sr. Vice President of Corporate
Communications at Hasbro, said at their Collectors Even "Leaked images or
prototypes that are posted without Hasbro's permission are not acceptable.
We will not ignore and we will not turn our back on [sites that post
such images.]" That seems pretty cut and dry to me. He's not just
speaking those sites that were invited to that event. He's speaking of
EVERY SITE.
> When HASBRO
> contacted me, I respected their wishes and did as asked.
No, you didn't. The images are still on your site and still linked from
your news page. You haven't done squat.
>
> What you guys are missing in the messages above is how I was being
> treated by Suspy
It doesn't matter. How about all those people you ripped off and haven't
paid back yet? How do you think THEY feel? How about 3H? How do you
think THEY feel? How about all those people that have now been spoiled
for BotCon because of your carelessness? How do you think THEY feel?
>
> I was just doing on my site what was once accepted guys -
> nothing more.
Despite Hasbro and 3H specifically requesting that it not be done. Do I
need to quote what was said at Hasbro's Collector's Event again? "Leaked
images or prototypes that are posted without Hasbro's permission are not
acceptable. We will not ignore and we will not turn our back on [sites
that post such images.]" This was said 3 MONTHS AGO.
>
> What bothers me most is that you guys are painting me to be a real bad
> guy here when I'm not.
You knew that Hasbro had asked for sites not to post unreleased prototypes
and such, yet you chose to do it anyway. You disrespected them, you
disrespected 3H, and you disrespected those that wished to remain
unspoiled about BotCon. You're STILL disrespecting Hasbro.
> If I had continued posting the CONVENTION
> exclusive images after Hasbro asked me not to, then I would be the bad
> guy. But I didn't. I did exactly as they asked.
NO YOU DIDN'T! Those images are STILL ON YOUR SITE! Those images are
STILL LINKED FROM YOUR NEWS PAGE!
>
> I would also like to state that I am more interested in finding out
> what is accepted by Hasbro than arguing about what each of us thinks
> is the law.
They told us this 3 MONTHS AGO. Were you asleep or something? Or did you
just not care? As long is you're not posting images of unreleased things,
or putting up copyrighted material that is easily available in retail
stores (comics, cartoon episodes, etc) then you should be ok.
> when, in fact, none of us
> really knows.
Yes we do and we've know for 3 Months.
>
> It's over. It's been over for 4 or 5 days.
No, it's not and it wont be until you've deleted the images from your site
and stop linking to them as Hasbro requested.
> I don't care either way.
That's rather apparent, yes.
member0
> It's refraining from cursing language in thread headers if you have common
> sense to know that there's a possibility that people under age read this
> group....
Let me address them to make sure they don't take this situation the
wrong way:
Welcome to the real world kiddies! Oh, and please note that in the
content of any mass media (be it Television, Music, the Internet, or
whatever else) it is very VERY bad to say words like Shit, Fuck, Cunt,
Bitch, Whore, or worst of all, Asshole.
However, it is perfectly acceptable speak about or to show images of
someone getting shot in the face.
Also note that talking about a couple in love having consensual sex is
very bad, but talking about punching someone in anger is fine.
-member0
Suspsy
> I can't say I agree with his actions. But I honestly question the reasons
> behind propagating the mudsligning and dragging it onto att. The post
could
> have been more productive if, for example, you had asked for help from
> others who thought having the pics up was a major foul. It may have sent
a
> much better message to Ryan.
I disagree. I think this entire thread, plus the ones on Allspark, 2005,
ADC, and, of course, Seibertron.com, have sent Ryan a VERY clear and
effective message.
Namely, that he and his cronies are stupid, selfish, whiny assholes.
> > . . . and I'm supposed to CARE what two or three angry people think of
me?
>
> You seem to. Why else would you have posted this?
Because as I already explained to you, it was damned funny. It's not my
fault you lack humor.
It didn't accomplish
> anything but split att into those who think the actiosn of Ryan are good
or
> bad.
But that's a GOOD thing. Seperate the bad from the good.
> You definitly seem to care quite a deal what people think -- angry or
> otherwise.
I care what certain people think. You I don't even know.
I think the amount of people annoyed with the way you presented
> your information has probably surprised you.
You thought wrong.
> Again, I agree with you 100%. Most of the stuff you've said, I can't help
> but agree with. I just wish you had presented yourself in a much more
> professional manner and done something more productive with your original
> post instead of mudsligning and essentially drawing a rift in the fandom
> between those who support you, those who don't, and those like myself who
do
> support you and the principles you're trying to push, but think you're
being
> a dick about it.
*shrug* You have your ideals, I have my own.
> And you did. Congrats. But then, why did you bother to continue with the
> matter? Why air out the dirty laundry between you and Ryan -- you've both
> never been on good terms
Excuse me? Before this whole fiasco started, I think I visited
Seibertron.com a grand total of three or four times in my ENTIRE LIFE.
and his hostility towards you isn't simply a result
> of your actions, but more of the fact that you were being a complete ass
> about it in the first place.
. . . and he WASN'T?
Instead of being professional, and simply
> contacting Hasbro in order to allow them to do thier job, you got yourself
> involved then dragged the fandom down with you.
Spare me your melodramatics. If you don't like this situation, then keep out
of it. Simple as that.
> > > You're making yourself sound like a propagator of rumour and
> > > misinformation -- not fact.
> >
> > Show me precisely where I've propagated misinformation.
>
> I didn't say you did. I'm saying that pointing people to forum
discussions
> as "proof" makes you sound like a tabloid.
Okay, so if I told someone to go to a library or a bookstore to look up
information on a topic, would that also make me sound like a tabloid?
> That's for the law to decide. Not you. I wish you'd stop acting like
judge
> and jury
I wish you would too.
Susp
"When the going gets tough, the tough get driving!" -G1 Rollbar
Desperadimus Prime
>before when ALL of the sites were posting these images?
At that time, Hasbro hadn't stated that they would pursue legal action against
sites that posted pics of stolen prototypes. And, to be perfectly honest, I
didn't know that the prototypes were stolen. I did find out later, but at that
time at least, I was under impression that those were pictures that Hasbro had
put out.
Desperadimus Prime
>content of any mass media (be it Television, Music, the Internet, or
>B***h, W***e, or worst of all, A**hole.
At the current time, I have only one appropriate response to such mindless,
unacceptable drivel being placed on a newsgroup about a children's toyline.
<PLONK!>
Clear chromed shiny Zaku II
>I thought I would post our
>converations which led up to the comment you posted of mine above so
>people could draw their own conclusions. I think that's only fair.
*major snippage*
Wow. The only thing I see Suspsy doing wrong, is maybe just a tad bit heavy on
the language.
Otherwise, I'm with Suspsy on this one.
-Sean Kneeland
http://members.aol.com/zaku2ms06/main.html
Email: zakuf2ms06f2 at aol dot com
Thylacine 2000
> Why were you guys not defending your beliefs last year or the year
> before when ALL of the sites were posting these images? Were you
> defending your current beliefs then? I stayed the course doing what I
> thought was ok until HASBRO, not you, told me otherwise.
A simple net-search will reveal that there was plenty of outrage in
the fandom after SPQQKY spoiled Shokaract in 2000 and Tigatron in
2001. 3H has repeatedly stated, for some years now, that they don't
want people spoiling their own convention for them--for, by depriving
them of the ability to unveil their own exclusive product when *they*
see fit, it takes away both their creative control and their emotional
reward. This is widely-known old news. I am unaware of *any* news
site ever hosting images of stolen prototypes of BC toys before the
present day. In both prior instances it was eBay, not a dedicated TF
fan site.
So, no, as far as BC/OTFCC exclusives go, there has been no "change of
mind" that I can see. People got very upset when they were leaked in
the past, and do so again today. I'm surprised that you were
surprised.
As far as advance toy images in general.... you are correct in saying
that many fans who complain about this did not do so before Hasbro
made its dissatisfaction public in recent months.
But what's wrong with that?
Hasbro is the chief creative force behind a hobby that we fans enjoy.
On finding that they are angered and upset by the theft and
image-propagation of their unfinished products, doesn't it make
perfect sense that many fans would change their opinion of the
practice? It seemed harmless for a while, so by and large people
didn't care. Then when we found out that it *wasn't* harmless, that
in fact it really insults the people who make Transformers, we changed
our minds.
Clear chromed shiny Zaku II
>Why were you guys not defending your beliefs last year or the year
>before when ALL of the sites were posting these images? Were you
>defending your current beliefs then?
a) Not ALL of the sites were showing them last year, and b) Hasbro and 3H have
stated repeatedly that no one put up pics of the exclusive prototypes. It
wasn't a big deal until you refused to listen to a dedicated fan.
>I stayed the course doing what I
>thought was ok until HASBRO, not you, told me otherwise. I continued
>doing what ALL of the Transformers sites were doing.
Bull.
>When HASBRO
>contacted me, I respected their wishes and did as asked.
You should've heeded their wishes and (that of 3H's) in the first place. Then
there wouldn't have been a contoversy.
>What you guys are missing in the messages above is how I was being
>treated by Suspy - something he neglects in mentioning. But it's
>obvious you don't really care so that's beside the point.
Suspsy is a passionate fan. He cares about the fandom, and he wants to see
Hasbro do more for the fandom. He's a bit rough around the edges sometimes,
I'll admit, but he's never steered many the wrong way. Suspsy is no angel, but
then again no one's perfect.
>I'm sorry if all of this has caused this much controversy. It was
>never meant to. I'm sorry if you guys have nothing better to do than
>debate business that truly involves just myself and Hasbro. Yes, it
>can end up affecting you, but it boils down to being between myself
>and Hasbro.
You don't care about Hasbro, the fandom, or anyone but yourself. Your recent
actions have shown that. Even your statement about how "it can end up affecting
you, but it boils down to being between myself and Hasbro" reflects this.
>Again, I'm sorry if posting the convention exclusives ruined anything
>for anyone. I was just doing on my site what was once accepted guys -
>nothing more.
Everyone has had a chance to read and understand Hasbro's and 3H's requests to
not put up those pics. You ignored them. By doing so you have merely shown them
how selfish and inconsiderate you are. By being a webmaster of a Transformer's
site, you set an example for others and you are also a representative of the
fan community. Now that Hasbro has had to take certain actions against you, you
have cast the fandom in a bad light. Do you see my point?
>What bothers me most is that you guys are painting me to be a real bad
>guy here when I'm not. If I had continued posting the CONVENTION
>exclusive images after Hasbro asked me not to, then I would be the bad
>guy. But I didn't. I did exactly as they asked.
Again, if you really cared, you would've heeded the wishes of Hasbro and 3H
before Suspsy ever contacted you. And you should have listed to him when he
did. So far, you've gone from *wrong* to *more wrong* to *even more wrong*.
>I would also like to state that I am more interested in finding out
>what is accepted by Hasbro than arguing about what each of us thinks
>is the law. I want to know what Hasbro thinks is legit. What do they
>like to see on our sites? What don't they like? I want to hear it
>from Hasbro
Good, then pay attention in the future and heed all warnings and requests from
them.
>I want to get to the root of the problem rather than us
>sitting here debating about it endlessly when, in fact, none of us
>really knows.
Uh, some of us have a pretty goddamned good idea.
>I get the feeling that this situation has been turned into a mountain
>from a mole hill. Have you nothing better to do than dwell on this
>situation? It's over. It's been over for 4 or 5 days. Seriously.
If you had heeded Hasbro's wishes in the first place, there wouldn't have been
a molehill to begin with.
>You
>guys apparently don't like me no matter what so let's just leave it at
>that. Great. You guys don't like me. I don't care either way.
This statement just goes to show just how crass you really are.
>I
>will continue spending 20-40 hours per week on my website giving back
>to the fans because that's what I enjoy doing. It doesn't matter
>whether or not you guys like all of my hard work or me or my website.
I think you do what you do to gain notoriety. You did what you did to get hits.
That's the bottom line.
>Again, I'm sorry if SEIBERTRON.com ruined anything for you guys.
You may have helped ruin the already tarnished relationship between the fandom
and Hasbro. Many fans have gone a long ways to help get that image shined up,
and what you did set us all back three to four years. Like I wrote before, I
doubt that you're sorry.
>Attacking me
>in an email will accomplish very little. Asking me about why I do
>certain things and suggesting alternate ways of doing those things
>while having a conversation discussing whatever the issue is will
>always accomplish things better. I promise.
I can see where Suspsy's emails came across as a little harsh. But from what
I've come to understand, this isn't the first time that you two have banged
heads. Maybe there was a little animosity before this all started, but all I
can say is you ignored the situation from the beginning. You only took steps to
comply with Hasbro's wishes AFTER the fact. I can see from where Suspsy sits
that calm rationale may have just drawn the same responses from you.
>Can we at least try to do this? I'm sure we can all accomplish a lot
>more TOGETHER than separately. Please consider this guys, I am always
>open to this. This arguing and fighting is senseless, ridiculous and
>a waste of ALL of our time.
I'm sure that if in the future Hasbro has a request, and you do your best to
comply with their wishes, that this can all be avoided. But what's done is
done. You already have fans who are on damage control, and you better hope that
they can still get this ship righted.
Otherwise, I'm in a very pissy mood, as I have a whole basement to pack and
move.
Richard Mistron
> No, you didn't. The images are still on your site and still linked from
> your news page. You haven't done squat.
Not that I really want to continue this pointless flame war any longer, but
where are you getting this from Pyre? I've been to the site and looked in
the news section where I see no links to any of these pics.
--
Off the Card - Because that's how toys should be.
http://www.offthecard.com/
Merytneith
> Anyway, while I've got your ear... One of the pro-leaked-pics arguments
> is that a mere photo is the property of the picture-taker. Let's give
> the spy the benefit of the doubt and assume that the toys, themselves,
> weren't stolen; rather, photos were snapped surreptitiously while the
> toys were still in Hasbro/3H's possession.
Welllll, here's the deal (and also here's why IP attorneys
get so many billable hours): the *identity* of the picture
taker becomes highly significant for copyright and trade
secret violations, but the mere publication of the
photograph itself might have implications on trademark. I
will explain.
If the person who took the picture was a Hasbro employee
taking test shot photos for use in his or her official
capacity, the photograph is the property of Hasbro and ANY
publication of that photograph violates Hasbro's copyright
privileges. Remember, a work does not actually have to be
*registered* with the government in order to be copyrighted.
Now, say for example that the photograph was taken by
someone who got access to the factory illicitly-- say, for
example, one of the line workers decided to snap a picture
against the direction of Hasbro, or say (alternatively) that
someone broke into the factory and took pictures. Those
photographs would most likely *also* infringe Hasbro's
rights, perhaps trade secret rights (by revealing some
special element of the toymaking process that wouldn't
otherwise be available, for example). This would be quite a
bit harder to prove than in the former example. Another
possibility is a false light claim-- basically it's a kind
of tort claim where you allege that your business was harmed
by someone making public certain details that (s)he had no
right to publish. I'm thinking of the Food Lion vs. ABC
News case here, but it's been a while since I read that one
(so don't quote me on this).
The trademark one is tricky: the object itself, if it is
disctinctive enough, can sometimes serve as a *functional*
trademark-- for example, if you've ever seen one of the
original iMac computers, it's distinctive shape and coloring
instantly marks it as an Apple-brand computer. That design
feature is something that could be trademarked, and
therefore even the act of publishing one's own photograph of
that object can be trademark violation-- the photographer
doesn't have permission to use the trademark, after all.
Hasbro might be able to bring a suit successfully on this
theory as well. It'll be up to the jury / judge to decide.
> This act has been compared to the "spy reports" that auto magazines and
> Popular Mechanics and such often publish. Someone uses a telephoto lens
> to take pictures of prototype cars being tested, and those photos appear
> in magazines without any apparent legal hassles.
I can think of 2 possibilities:
(1) As credible news organizations, the auto magazines have
a stronger 1st Amendment claim to the publication of their
*own* photos in that context, especially because the cars
are run *outside in the open*. A photographer with a
telephoto lens can take a picture of something driving
around in the open even if the test track is closed to the
public-- if an airplane or helicopter can legally fly
overhead, there's probably no protectable privacy interest.
(Hasbro's case is arguably different because its
prototypes don't get tested out in the open air-- I'd be
highly surprised if they even leave the *factory*.)
(2) The automakers are consciously aware (or believe) that
the mystique of a "purloined" photograph is far greater in
the minds of the public than the glossy advertising spreads
they're planning to crank out themselves, and as a hype
strategy don't interfere with the photographers.
> So what's the legal reality here?
>
> (Now, when I've argued on the Seibertron.com boards, I've stayed away
> from too much legal discussion because I figure the likely real-life
> fact of the matter is that Hasbro can sic a pack of lawyers on anybody -
> or everybody - in the fandom and make the law work the way they want it
> to. We could pontificate till our faces turn blue, but it won't mean
> jack if Hasbro brings out the big guns.
Very true. There are significant transaction costs involved
in adjudicating disputes through the legal process. Those
costs tend to shut out poor litigants with *good* cases but
do nothing to stem the flow of rich litigants bringing
ultimately frivolous complaints. (That's why there is an
ethical obligation on lawyers not to take cases that are
wholly frivolous in nature. You can guess how effective a
prohibition this is.)
> Moreover, even if
> Seibertron.com DOES have a legal right to show these pics, there are
> still serious moral issues in doing so. My core contention isn't that
> the act is ILLEGAL, but that it's WRONG. Despite that, though, I *am*
> still curious about what the law really allows.)
And that brings me to my caveat: these are only my opinions,
they are not true legal advice, and if anyone reading this
needs legal advice, then (s)he should contact an attorney, etc.
For what it is worth, I think that the publication of the
photographs is *both* morally and legally wrong. Or, at
least, I wouldn't want to face the judge (heavenly or
otherwise) having done what Seibertron.com did.
--Mery
=====================================================
Judge Mentok: [to female witness] Now, I already
know that you aren't doing anything tonight--
BECAUSE I'M MENTOK, THE MIND TAKER!-- But...
Are you... *doing* anything... tonight?
Harvey Birdman: OBJECTION!
Myron Reducto: OBJECTION!
[Judge Mentok sticks his tongue out and motions at
them to sit down.]
=====================================================
Thomas Hamann
thought:
<snip + O_o >
Are you for real?
No, just answer the question: ARE YOU FOR REAL?!?
Thomas Hamann, someone pinch me if I'm dreaming...
--
Universal Newsgroup signature:
Personal Website: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/
Rec.Arts.Anime.Models Posting Policies: http://evilskylark.tripod.com/faqs.htm
"...you ain't no different than Ben Laden..." - The emminent Dr. J ranting about me on alt.toys.transformers.
Cyberchild
"Desperadimus Prime" <despe...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20030525234359...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> >Welcome to the real world kiddies! Oh, and please note that in the
> >content of any mass media (be it Television, Music, the Internet, or
> >whatever else) it is very VERY bad to say words like S**t, F**k, C**t,
> >B***h, W***e, or worst of all, A**hole.
>
> At the current time, I have only one appropriate response to such
mindless,
> unacceptable drivel being placed on a newsgroup about a children's
toyline.
>
> <PLONK!>
Double PLONK!
Cyb, forgets what to do in such situations, well, who blames me with all
those exams?
Cyberchild
Desperadimus Prime.
Cyb
"Desperadimus Prime" <despe...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20030525234359...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Ground Zero
> ADC, and, of course, Seibertron.com, have sent Ryan a VERY clear and
> effective message.
>
> Namely, that he and his cronies are stupid, selfish, whiny assholes.
Thank you for calling me an *sshole in a public forum. Goes to show a lot
about your maturity level.
> Because as I already explained to you, it was damned funny. It's not my
> fault you lack humor.
I just fail to see the point.
> > You definitly seem to care quite a deal what people think -- angry or
> > otherwise.
>
> I care what certain people think. You I don't even know.
So, essentially, you care about the oppinions of those who share the same
point of view you do. Very enlightened.
> I think the amount of people annoyed with the way you presented
> > your information has probably surprised you.
>
> You thought wrong.
Counting myself amongst them, it would make me right.
> > Again, I agree with you 100%. Most of the stuff you've said, I can't
help
> > but agree with. I just wish you had presented yourself in a much more
> > professional manner and done something more productive with your
original
> > post instead of mudsligning and essentially drawing a rift in the fandom
> > between those who support you, those who don't, and those like myself
who
> do
> > support you and the principles you're trying to push, but think you're
> being
> > a dick about it.
>
> *shrug* You have your ideals, I have my own.
No, we have the SAME ideals. You're just being a dick about them.
> > And you did. Congrats. But then, why did you bother to continue with
the
> > matter? Why air out the dirty laundry between you and Ryan -- you've
both
> > never been on good terms
>
> Excuse me? Before this whole fiasco started, I think I visited
> Seibertron.com a grand total of three or four times in my ENTIRE LIFE.
And each time you've been an ass. I rest me case.
> and his hostility towards you isn't simply a result
> > of your actions, but more of the fact that you were being a complete ass
> > about it in the first place.
>
> . . . and he WASN'T?
Touche.
> Instead of being professional, and simply
> > contacting Hasbro in order to allow them to do thier job, you got
yourself
> > involved then dragged the fandom down with you.
>
> Spare me your melodramatics. If you don't like this situation, then keep
out
> of it. Simple as that.
You're asking ME to spare the melodramatics? Pot, meet kettle!
> > I didn't say you did. I'm saying that pointing people to forum
> discussions
> > as "proof" makes you sound like a tabloid.
>
> Okay, so if I told someone to go to a library or a bookstore to look up
> information on a topic, would that also make me sound like a tabloid?
No, if you quoted some actual LEGAL INFORMATION you might sound less like a
tabloid. However, this part of the discussion is really pointless, since
you only wanted to bring up the issue of the pics being posted against
Hasbro's wishes. It wasn't so much a legal issue as it is a moral one --
though the legal issue does lie in there. Again, I think most can agree, it
would have been nice if the information had been kept secret.
Again, I agree with you. I just don't like how you're going on about it --
like it's your own personal crusade when you should be trying to get the
fandom involved in a productive manner.
-GZ
Ground Zero
"Pyre" <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3ED10BE...@crosswinds.net...
> Ground Zero wrote:
> > Instead, you just got into a heated flame war with a message
> > board owner, and came here crying poor me
>
> this dumbass did" and personally, I agree with him.
>
But you also have to agree that he could have been far more productive with
the matter instead of airing the hostilities between himself and Ryan. He
could have encouraged others to follow in his footsteps and report other
postings of the images to Hasbro. He could have asked members to contact
any websites they see with the pics and ask that they been taken down. He
could have done a lot of good, but instead he came here and basically bashed
a fan website that was reporting news. That wasn't productive.
-GZ
member0
> >Welcome to the real world kiddies! Oh, and please note that in the
> >content of any mass media (be it Television, Music, the Internet, or
> >whatever else) it is very VERY bad to say words like S**t, F**k, C**t,
> >B***h, W***e, or worst of all, A**hole.
>
> At the current time, I have only one appropriate response to such mindless,
> unacceptable drivel being placed on a newsgroup about a children's toyline.
Heh, proves my point really. It's not as if I'm making that stuff up.
-member0
Chris Marv
are still on their server. Those images are still linked to on their
"News" page. So, no, they weren't removed...>>
Hello! It's me, I have a question. Just out of curiosity. Would the law
also stipulate anything about if the images, while not being shown on
their web site, Still able to be access by looking at their index files?
The reason I ask is that I went to Seibertron.com. Would you believe
that I have never been to this site until I started reading this
thread?! Anyway, I was looking at their News page. They had a link for
the Repaints of Sideswipe and Sunstreaker. Well, like on some sites. You
can just remove the file extension and you gain access to their image
file index. Well i did and... "BOOM"! I found the files of the Female
repaints. It was nice to finally see what they looked like and all.
Of course, I went to the site looking for the pictures since Pyre said
they still have them linked on their site and I haven't seent hem until
now. And like some. I wanted to see them darn it! :) Plus I wanted to
know if what he said is true. Well I didn't look long enough since I got
into the image files. But I did read the message boards that was
discussing Hasbro, the images and how Hasbro's Legal Dept. is in talks
Seibertron.com. it was interesting reading. They certainly are pleased
about the matter.
Have fun all!
Marv
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Not that I really want to continue this pointless flame war any longer, but
> where are you getting this from Pyre? I've been to the site and looked in
> the news section where I see no links to any of these pics.
On the news page:
http://www.seibertron.com/infozone/news.php
Item "OTFCC exclusives on ebay!" posted by "Abrogate on May 16 03 6:10pm".
The item begins by saying that Hasbro has demanded they take the pictures
down. The next paragraph is the original news item complete with a
working link to a picture on their servers. There are also two news items
above this which repeate the statement about Hasbro contacting them, and
do not have pictures but still spoil the toys' identities.
I (and others, I assume) have pointed this out to Ryan by email, so they
might disappear at any time, but they are most definitely still there as I
make this post.
On an unrelated note, there was some discussion earlier about their claim
of getting "100,000" hits. Ryan is counting *pageviews*, not visitors.
If somebody goes to the site and spends an hour on the message boards, for
example, that one visitor will rack up at least a few dozen pageviews. He
says they're getting 100,000 pageviews per day, which seems awfully high
to me, but I guess is possible.
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Thomas Hamann
Thomas Hamann
Chris Marv
hacking? If so I apologize. I sometimes do this when I go to sits that
have a sh!t load of images and takes forever to load. This way I just
click on it and there's the image.
back to lurk mode.
Marv