Time violation? (small spoiler)
Liz Broadwell
SMALL SPOILER FOLLOWS
... Michelle Kwan had a time violation (2 seconds over) in her short
program. Since my chance of seeing the women's short programs is almost
zero, would somebody mind explaining what this looked like and how such a
violation is calculated? It seems to be a very strange mistake for
someone of Kwan's experience. Or am I so used to calculating athletic
events in tenths and hundreths of seconds that I'm overestimating how
obvious a two-second offage would look?
Thanks,
Liz
--
Liz Broadwell (username-in-header at orphco dot org), Charter Orphan
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
"Only love is credible." -- Hans Urs von Balthasar
Yoshiko
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26758-2004Mar26.html
"Referee Jan Hoffmann told U.S. figure skating team leaders that Kwan's
program lasted 2 minutes, 42 seconds - two seconds too long. The
violation requires a 0.1 deduction on each mark."
WatchTheDailyShow
"Yoshiko" <Yos...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:c41rgi$2dab4e$1...@ID-210539.news.uni-berlin.de...
could've happened? she's been doing the same short since fall of 02...was it
the final spin combo that she never seems to finish on the mark.
Liz Broadwell
>
>"Yoshiko" <Yos...@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:c41rgi$2dab4e$1...@ID-210539.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26758-2004Mar26.html
>>
>> "Referee Jan Hoffmann told U.S. figure skating team leaders that Kwan's
>> program lasted 2 minutes, 42 seconds - two seconds too long. The
>> violation requires a 0.1 deduction on each mark."
>>
>could've happened? she's been doing the same short since fall of 02...was it
>the final spin combo that she never seems to finish on the mark.
Eurosport's sending people out to investigate whether an appeal is in the
offing. Did anyone see whether Kwan finished behind her music, or was it
a question of the program itself being too long? The latter strikes me as
highly unlikely: even discounting Kwan's experience, surely that kind of
problem would have been caught before by someone.
And, just because I know I'm going to have to explain this to people
later, how is the timing of a skating program determined? Is it the
length of the music, or the length of time the skater spends skating (and
if the latter, what determines the start? The skater's first move on the
blade?)?
Darby Wiggins
their program at the end of the music...couple seconds late. Is their program
length, both music wise and actually movement wise (from first movement to last
movement) just short enough when done correctly that they have some room?
MK has been doing this program for some time and if it had been a problem,. I'd
think it would have been pointed out by now...regardless of what system she is
skating under.
Now, if MK's supposed appeal is heard and the decision overturned, what place
does that put her in now?
Darby
Chris Hall
at 07:15 PM, Bex <re...@trashsympatico.ca> said:
>> ...what determines the start? The skater's first
>> move on the blade?)?
>I believe it's when the skater begins to move, period.
This is cut and pasted from Don Korte's web site. Should be a reasonably
up to date version of the USFSA rules (which should be reasonably close to
ISU):
"Section SSR 15.00 contains the rules describing how those time
requirements are interpreted.
Timing of a skater's program always commences when the skater first
begins to move or skate, which is not always at the same time as the
music starts (SSR 15.06). Timing continues until skater comes to a
complete stop at the end of the program."
The relevant stuff for SP's is:
"Short Programs (SSR 15.01 - 15.04)
* The times specified for Short Programs and Adult freeskates are
considered to be Maximum Allowed Times (not-to-exceed).
* There is no deduction or penalty for completing a Short Program in
less time than the specified maximum, as long as all required elements are
completed.
* When the stated time allowance has elapsed, the referee will blow a
whistle, or otherwise inform the judges that the allowed time has elapsed.
ALL JUDGING CEASES IMMEDIATELY. Elements performed after the time limit
do not count. If an element (like a long spin) starts within the allowed
time, but continues beyond time, deductions are taken for overtime."
Judging stops at the max time (in this case 2:40) and deductions start,
with 0.1 every 10 seconds of overtime. If there are newer regs, or
differences with ISU, please post.
--
Chris M. Hall, Associate Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan
Perfection is the enemy of the good
WIsil
>with 0.1 every 10 seconds of overtime.
So, the referee thinks that Michelle was at least 20 seconds over??? if they
are taking .2 off her technical marks.....
sounds like a speedyscrewup
Liz Broadwell
>>Judging stops at the max time (in this case 2:40) and deductions start,
>>with 0.1 every 10 seconds of overtime.
>
>So, the referee thinks that Michelle was at least 20 seconds over??? if they
>are taking .2 off her technical marks.....
No, at least according to ESPN.com's article. They say it's .1 off each
mark.
Peace,
WIsil
>>are taking .2 off her technical marks.....
>
>No, at least according to ESPN.com's article. They say it's .1 off each
>mark.
Oh, I thought they said .2 off each mark.
WIsil
.2 off of her marks for a time violation while the rules state .1 for each 10
seconds over. Wondering what the real story is.....
Darby Wiggins
RE: Worlds- Ladies SP Timing
Date:
Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:23:00 -0700
From:
Lindsay DeWall <lde...@usfigureskating.org>
To:
"'dwig...@gmu.edu'" <dwig...@gmu.edu>
U.S. Figure Skating has filed a protest with the International Skating Union on
the timing deduction assessed to Michelle Kwan in the short program at the 2004
World Figure Skating
Championships in Dortmund, Germany.
U.S. Figure Skating President Chuck Foster had the following statement:
"All week long Michelle Kwan's music has been timed at 2:40. Our question is how
then can the timing be off in the performance? That's the reason for the protest -
to confirm that the
timing of the performance was correct."
Kwan was timed at 2:42 during the short program on March 26, surpassing the 2:40
maximum time limit. For this she received a timing deduction of 0.1 for each mark
from each judge.
The ISU Special Regulations Figure Skating states in rule 305:
"The time must be reckoned from the moment the skater begins to move or to skate
until arriving at a complete stop at the end of the program. If competitor/s fail
to finish the short
program within the time limit, there should be a 0.1 deduction in the marks for
required elements and presentation for up to every 10 seconds in excess. The
timekeepers must inform the
referees who must then advise the judges of the number of seconds in excess."
Kwan's marks put her in fourth place following the short program behind Sasha
Cohen (USA, first), Shizuka Arakawa (JPN, second) and Miki Ando (JPN, third).
During the World
Championships three different performances count towards a skater's final score in
the competition. The qualifying round is 20 percent and is given a factor of 0.4;
the short program is 30
percent and has a factor of 0.6; the free skate is 50 percent and has a factor of
1.0.
The protest has been filed with the ISU. The result of the assessment is expected
to be announced before the ladies free skate taking place on Saturday, March 27,
at 7 a.m. EST (1 p.m. at
the event in Dortmund).
See below for clarification...
Lindsay DeWall
Director of Media Relations
U.S. Figure Skating
20 First Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80906
P: (719) 228-3466
F: (719) 635-9548
www.usfigureskating.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Darby Wiggins [mailto:dwig...@gmu.edu]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 2:11 PM
To: in...@usfigureskating.org
Cc: lfaw...@usfigureskating.org
Subject: Worlds- Ladies SP Timing
It is being widely reported that Michelle Kwan has been penalized .1 on
both marks for exceeding the SP time limit of 2 min 40 seconds. Is this
correct? It has also been reported that you, the USFSA are protesting
this, can you comment? The skating community would like to know.
JSSTHX
their programs. Plenty of skaters celebrate at the end of their routines and
their skates are moving at that point (for example: Tara Lipinski after her
Olympic LP).
Doria
This is really odd. There have been plenty of skaters who have not
finished
> their program at the end of the music...couple seconds late. Is their program
> length, both music wise and actually movement wise (from first movement to last
> movement) just short enough when done correctly that they have some room?
>
> MK has been doing this program for some time and if it had been a problem,. I'd
> think it would have been pointed out by now...regardless of what system she is
> skating under.
>
> Darby
>
---------------------------------------
I agree. This is such piddly shit. I think they looked for a way
to give her lower marks. Supposedly her short was fine and she could
have been in the top 3 except for the penalty. Total bull on
Hoffman's part. I hope she aces her long program and flips the bird
to the judges. (Not likely I know-I think Lloyd Eisler gave the
judges, once a long time ago, the "Italian salute" after getting lower
marks then he thought he should have.) I always liked Lloyd.
Doria
Jennifer Lyon
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
----------
In article <4064A220...@gmu.edu>, Darby Wiggins
<dwig...@gmu.edu> wrote:
I don't think the deducation made any difference, though. I
watched the SPs on CBC and IMO, the top five placements are what
they should be. Still, I can see why the USFSA would want to find
out what went wrong with the timing.
SRR
AND, Joubert after both of HIS programs.
SRR
pinkbuddha
misery? he has f-d up so many times.
"Doria" <Braves...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d469b87.04032...@posting.google.com...
Babygi3870
I seem to also remember a certain skate America when Tara Lipinski mid camel
spin when her music stopped no one deducted for that.
Bbarlou
I'd
> > think it would have been pointed out by now...regardless of what system she
is
> > skating under."
Kwan finished after the music at Nationals this year also. Re-watch the tape
if you have it and you will verify this. Since she received no penalty for it
at that time, she probably never expected it to be a problem.
Shallah
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
>
> ----------
>
The deduction changed Michelle's four 6.0s into 5.9s not to mention putting
her 1 or 2 spots below where she should have been. here are the marks after
the ref. deduction:
5.1 5.4 5.4 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.8
5.6 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9
If the 0.1 of each mark had not been taken off by the Ref. here is what she
would have had:
5.1 5.5 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.9
5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0
Here are the other ladies SP marks:
http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2004/seg007.htm
Bbarlou
placed fairly.
"> I don't think the deducation made any difference, though. I watched the SPs
on CBC and IMO, the top five placements are what they should be."
However, Kwan's ultra-loyal fans will keep making excuses for her placement.
Can you imagine if Sasha had made the same type of mistake as Michelle--the
Kwaniacs would be screaming about how right it was to penalize her.
WatchTheDailyShow
according to the above article on espn.com, the appeal was rejected.
okay math wiz's, what are the possible scenarios? if Sasha skates a clean
long, save a fall on her triple toe, how many 6.0's will she receive?
<sarcasm off>
Amy or Brian
"Bbarlou" <bba...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040327081904...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Probably not. For starters, nobody actually screams on Usenet. Your
one-note protestations and yourname-calling are as close to screaming as it
comes. Secondly, I don't think anyone exists who hates Sasha Cohen as much
as you hate Michelle Kwan. Thirdly, the time issue would be fair ONLY if it
were evenly applied, which it obviously is not. So it would have been
unfair if they'd done this to Sasha as well.
Pat C
<am...@NOSPAM.dot.post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>"Bbarlou" <bba...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20040327081904...@mb-m23.aol.com...
>> Some people who have actually seen the short program have posted that Kwan
>was
>> placed fairly.
>>
>> "> I don't think the deducation made any difference, though. I watched the
>SPs
>> on CBC and IMO, the top five placements are what they should be."
>>
>> However, Kwan's ultra-loyal fans will keep making excuses for her
>placement.
>> Can you imagine if Sasha had made the same type of mistake as
>Michelle--the
>> Kwaniacs would be screaming about how right it was to penalize her.
Hehehehe.......Cohen still didn't beat MK. ;) LMT might have got a
silver medal, but she lost the lp to MK.
Pat C
( I know, this is so petty of me, but Cohen's fans are bloody boring)
:roll
Roaz
>From: Pat C pcol...@t2.net
>Date: 3/27/2004 9:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <bndb60publrnq6t9v...@4ax.com>
Hey, don't paint us all with the same brush!
:)
DesertRoaz
"No man is an island, entirely of itself." -- John Donne
Pat C
>>
>>Hehehehe.......Cohen still didn't beat MK. ;) LMT might have got a
>>silver medal, but she lost the lp to MK.
>>
>>Pat C
>>( I know, this is so petty of me, but Cohen's fans are bloody boring)
>>:roll
>>
>
>Hey, don't paint us all with the same brush!
>:)
Oh all right. I know all the fans of certain skaters aren't tunnel
visioned.
:)
Pat C
www.skatemusiclist.com
Janice Schnell
>misery? he has f-d up so many times.
Jan Hoffman did what he was supposed to do. I'm not seeing a problem. If
Michelle was over time, she was over time. *shrug* It's not the end of the
world.
I think it's funny that Callaghan is going around saying the judges are sending
Michelle a message. I guess the message is "You are on the right track, just
up your difficulty a little and the prize is yours."
Janice
"Alias" Fan - Spydaddy rocks!
"Kwan uses her body as a form of communication that links her to the music, the
audience and the ice." Elaine Anderson, Reno Gazette-Journal 7/25/02
Poobah
PLUS she has been the beneficiary of such nitpicking against her
competition time and time again. Was it fair? No, but she has a
long way to go before it is anywhere near "even". This is the first
time she has ever had to suck it up and live with it like they did.
I'm betting it came as a shock.
Sara
Fiona McQuarrie
: PLUS she has been the beneficiary of such nitpicking against her
: competition time and time again. Was it fair? No, but she has a
: long way to go before it is anywhere near "even".
Can you please give an example of what time violations you are talking
about?
Fiona
Bbarlou
Isn't Jan Hoffman the judge who gave the deciding mark to Oksana in 1994? If
so, God Bless him!
Bbarlou
> if you have it and you will verify this. Since she received no penalty for
it
> at that time, she probably never expected it to be a problem.
"PLUS she has been the beneficiary of such nitpicking against her competition
time and time again. Was it fair? No, but she has a long way to go before it
is anywhere near "even". This is the first
time she has ever had to suck it up and live with it like they did. I'm
betting it came as a shock."
It's about time, isn't it?
Shillelagh
placement.
> Can you imagine if Sasha had made the same type of mistake as
Michelle--the
> Kwaniacs would be screaming about how right it was to penalize her.
Twit - why can't you be happy that both skaters representing YOUR country
placed on the podium? Send them here to Canada where we'll be glad to have
BOTH of them. What a jerk.
Shelagh
Roj
> Can you imagine if Sasha had made the same type of mistake as Michelle--the
> Kwaniacs would be screaming about how right it was to penalize her.
I'm an ultra-loyal Kwan fan and I'm not making excuses. I'm a Kwaniac,
but I'm not screaming. By the rules she was 2 seconds over. The music
stopped on time, but she continued to move for another 2 seconds. By
the rules her program was too long. So it was a fair judgement.
But it's disappointing. Well now she's got all the colors from the
World competition.
Trudi Marrapodi
<mcqu...@sfu.ca> wrote:
Yes. Exactly what kinds of "nitpicking" that her competition has been
subjected to have resulted in wins for Kwan?
And please, let's not talk about that silly nitpick about lutzes being
done off the correct edge.
--
Trudi
(who wants to know why Carmelo Anthony couldn't have at least TRIED life as a sophomore)
"Call me Deacon Blues"--Steely Dan
Trudi Marrapodi
jani...@aol.commotion (Janice Schnell) wrote:
[snip]
> I think it's funny that Callaghan is going around saying the judges are
sending
> Michelle a message. I guess the message is "You are on the right track, just
> up your difficulty a little and the prize is yours."
Funny how it is that every time judges are supposedly sending Kwan the
message "Up your difficulty," her reply seems to be "Up yours."
Bbarlou
> about?"
>
> Fiona
If Kwan had been penalized at Nationals for ending her program well after the
music stopped, perhaps this would not have happened at Worlds.
Kate
> spin when her music stopped no one deducted for that.
Although we really don't know that.
Anyway, it's not that uncommon for people to get these sorts of
deductions. If she was over, she was over. I don't buy that she was
being singled out, or treated differently. This wasn't a good comp
for Kwan, relatively speaking, but she made mistakes (and, by the end,
IMO, she did just fine, particularly given all the distractions).
-- Kate
Jennifer Shulman
> From: jss...@aol.com (JSSTHX)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.sport.skating.ice.figure
> Date: 26 Mar 2004 23:16:42 GMT
> Subject: Re: Time violation? (small spoiler)
Right, and about two years ago there was a trend where ending poses were
glides, and the skaters never came to a complete stop. I wonder how those
programs were judged in terms on time violations.
Jen
Bbarlou
> spin when her music stopped no one deducted for that."
There is no way for us to know whether Tara was penalized if she skated after
her music ended, because she did not complain and act arrogant about the
deduction. Kwan has gotten away with this sort of thing for years--they should
have pointed it out for her at Nationals, but the judges, as usual, closed
their eyes to Michelle's mistakes.
Cmquik
that horrible qualifying round and still medaled, and that after basically
taking the year off, and then sharing the ice with a might-have-been-stalker.
She's a fighter, and far from over.
I'm aghast at the lack of security on the rink, though, especially with what's
happening on the international level. He could easily have had a gun, or bombs
strapped to himself!
Fiona McQuarrie
:>" Can you please give an example of what time violations you are talking
:> about?"
:>
:> Fiona
For someone who claims to be a teacher, you seem to lack some basic
reading
skills.
The poster I was asking this question of stated that Kwan had benefited
many times in past international competition from non-application of the
deductions that time violations are supposed to incur. I was asking for
examples of this, not examples of domestic competition this year.
Fiona
Bbarlou
after the music stopped, perhaps this would not have happened at Worlds."
Fiona nastily replied: The poster I was asking this question of stated that
Kwan had benefited many times in past international competition from
non-application of the deductions that time violations are supposed to incur. I
was asking for examples of this, not examples of domestic competition this
year."
Even Dick Button commented that Kwan stopped after the music at Nationals and
perhaps it should have been called to her attention at that time so that she
could correct the problem before Worlds. But, of course, Fiona must be nasty
to me or she wouldn't enjoy her day.
Trudi Marrapodi
(Cmquik) wrote:
Wasn't it in Germany that Monica Seles was attacked? Have these people
learned nothing in the interim? Sheesh.
Nothing like this could possibly have happened in Washington last year,
not in its state of post-9/11/beginning-of-war lockdown. Or at the
Olympics, given the hugely heavy security there. Or even at Nagano worlds.
I think the Japanese have had enough terrorist problems of their own to be
concerned about making sure nothing bad happens at a major sporting event.
Amy or Brian
No, Barbara, Fiona was merely pointing out the difference between
international competitions, such as Worlds, and domestic competitions, such
as the US Nationals. She was not arguing that Kwan didn't make a mistake at
Nationals; nobody was arguing that. I guess you taught before teachers were
required to pass basic reading comprehension tests.
People wouldn't be so nasty to you if you didn't make it so easy. A year
ago, I attempted to engage you in genuine conversation about skating, but
you refuse to learn anything about the sport. You know whom you like
(Sasha, Oksana, and lately you've added Tara to that list), you know whom
you hate (Kwan), and that's about it. You know nothing about edges, jump
entrances, footwork, or what the judges are looking for when they give
either mark. You label any poster who disagrees with you a Kwaniac, even if
they never bring up Michelle Kwan. And for some bizarre reason, you go on
and on about your old job and your two overachieving daughters, as if that
will somehow make your opinions more worthwhile.
So I'll say again: if you care enough about skating to watch so many
competitions and post to a newsgroup, why not take some time to learn about
the sport? You don't have to loooooove Kwan, but when longtime fans
describe some of her qualities, why not pay attention to those features on
all skaters, do some compare and contrast, and see if that makes a
difference? When someone notes that one of your favorites has a tendency to
flutz, why not look out for that the next time and see how many other
skaters flutz? And here's an idea: how about watching the men, the pairs,
or the dance competitions? You might learn even more.
Bbarlou
and on about your old job and your two overachieving daughters, as if that
will somehow make your opinions more worthwhile."
First of all, I have THREE spectacularly successful daughters, not two. And
that was only brought up when other posters insisted that I must be a lonely
"old maid" with no life, which was a ridiculous assumption to make because I
don't particularly like Kwan and think she is over-rated.
Bbarlou
about skating, but you refuse to learn anything about the sport."
You did not "attempt to engage me in genuine conversation." You tried very
hard to fight with me. And you have some nerve thinking that I could "learn
anything about the sport" from you. You just think you know everything about
everything. When you "attempted to engage me in conversation" you were very
snotty and it was more like you were attempting to "teach" me to have your
opinion instead of my own. I did not choose to engage in that type of
"conversation," so since then you have taken every opportunity to insult me.
Genuine conversation does not consist of one person ridiculing the other as you
have been trying to do with me. If you would like to engage in meaningful
conversation between two knowledgeable skating fans who both have something to
contribute, I will be happy to do so.
Bbarlou
list)"
I always liked Tara, from the time I was at the Nassau Colliseum for the
original ('94 I think) Ice Wars and she was introduced after the intermission
as a 12-year-old up-and-coming skating star. That was her first paid
performance (for which she earned a well-deserved $5,000). I also like Kristi
and Katia and many others. I have never been fixated on Sasha, as you keep
insisting, but I do enjoy her skating very much and hope she will become a
champion. I was very happy to see her medal at Worlds, and I said several
times that the placements were fair, though you keep insisting I was unhappy
with them.
Amy or Brian
> Amy said: " A year ago, I attempted to engage you in genuine conversation
> about skating, but you refuse to learn anything about the sport."
>
> You did not "attempt to engage me in genuine conversation." You tried
very
> hard to fight with me.
Don't have to try *too* hard!
>And you have some nerve thinking that I could "learn
> anything about the sport" from you.
If you want to call it nerve, go ahead. But if you know more about the
sport than I do, you're doing a great job at hiding it.
>You just think you know everything about
> everything.
Not remotely. Knowing more than you is a far cry from knowing everything
about everything. There are many many many posters on RSSIF who know a lot
more about skating than I do-- and most of them have you filtered.
>When you "attempted to engage me in conversation" you were very
> snotty and it was more like you were attempting to "teach" me to have your
> opinion instead of my own.
Explaining to you about flutzing is not an opinion. When an attempted lutz
takes off from an inside edge, it's a mistake. That's not my opinion, it's
a fact. Explaining to you that not everyone who disagrees with you is
obviously a disgruntled Kwan fan is not an opinion, either. I never told
you not to hate Michelle Kwan.
>I did not choose to engage in that type of
> "conversation," so since then you have taken every opportunity to insult
me.
Well, yeah. I'm lazy and it's so easy.
> Genuine conversation does not consist of one person ridiculing the other
as you
> have been trying to do with me.
No, but I was very nice to you at first, and one of the few who didn't just
immediately filter you. I didn't start ridiculing you until it became
apparent that normal conversation was beyond your grasp.
>If you would like to engage in meaningful
> conversation between two knowledgeable skating fans who both have
something to
> contribute, I will be happy to do so.
Um.....okay? Learn pronoun-antecedent agreement and modifier agreement?
Cmquik
"Wasn't it in Germany that Monica Seles was attacked? Have these people
learned nothing in the interim? Sheesh."
Going back even further, didn't they learn the value of good security after the
nightmare of the Munich Olympics? Jiminy.
Shillelagh
> Amy said: " A year ago, I attempted to engage you in genuine conversation
> about skating, but you refuse to learn anything about the sport."
(Barby lou lou whined)
> Genuine conversation does not consist of one person ridiculing the other
as you
> have been trying to do with me. If you would like to engage in meaningful
> conversation between two knowledgeable skating fans who both have
something to
> contribute, I will be happy to do so.
Okay - Amy is the one knowledgeable skating fan. Who is the other one? It
isn't you!
Shelagh
Ted Chihara
> "Jan Hoffman did what he was supposed to do. I'm not seeing a problem."
>
> Isn't Jan Hoffman the judge who gave the deciding mark to Oksana in 1994? If
> so, God Bless him!
Jan Hoffman cast *a* vote for Oksana Baiul at Lillehammer. No judge
is designated as a tie-breaker.
Ted Chihara
Fiona McQuarrie
: I said: " If Kwan had been penalized at Nationals for ending her program well
And once again Bbarlou shows her amazing ability to read a post and
completely miss the point.
Fiona
TCAXEL
>learned nothing in the interim? Sheesh.
>
>Nothing like this could possibly have happened in Washington last year,
>not in its state of post-9/11/beginning-of-war lockdown. Or at the
>Olympics, given the hugely heavy security there. Or even at Nagano worlds.
>I think the Japanese have had enough terrorist problems of their own to be
>concerned about making sure nothing bad happens at a major sporting event.
>--
>Trudi
Well the US didn't learn anything at this years Superbowl, the biggest and
without a doubt the most security-loaded sporting event in the states.
An idiot was able to run out into the field. despite all the much ballyhooed
pst-9/11 security..nuff said
Theo
"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams
Trudi Marrapodi
(Cmquik) wrote:
Apparently not. And now, just because this guy was a goofball instead of a
stalker, they're just letting him go with no punishment. Lovely. :-P Way
to encourage more and more of these kinds of antics. Way to persuade some
stalker out there that if they DO want to go out on the ice with a gun and
shoot a skater down, well heck, no one in Germany is gonna stop 'em.
--
Trudi
"An admission of lack of expertise is never a particularly good platform for stating an absolute."--Janet Swan Hill
Pat C
>An idiot was able to run out into the field. despite all the much ballyhooed
>pst-9/11 security..nuff said
Well cynical little old me thinks that probably the casino paid $$ to
let the guy get on the ice. How else could he gets skates and a skirt
beside the boards? They couldn't have been that clueless.........
Same with the superbowl. $ and someone thinking oh what the hell it
isn't dangerous.....
Pat C
(cynic)
Trudi Marrapodi
(TCAXEL) wrote:
> >Wasn't it in Germany that Monica Seles was attacked? Have these people
> >learned nothing in the interim? Sheesh.
> >
> >Nothing like this could possibly have happened in Washington last year,
> >not in its state of post-9/11/beginning-of-war lockdown. Or at the
> >Olympics, given the hugely heavy security there. Or even at Nagano worlds.
> >I think the Japanese have had enough terrorist problems of their own to be
> >concerned about making sure nothing bad happens at a major sporting event.
> >--
> >Trudi
> ************************
> Well the US didn't learn anything at this years Superbowl, the biggest and
> without a doubt the most security-loaded sporting event in the states.
>
> An idiot was able to run out into the field. despite all the much ballyhooed
> pst-9/11 security..nuff said
>
> Theo
You got it. They were patting themselves hugely on the backs as recently
as last year about how great Super Bowl security was...and then they let
it go to hell.