The Desolation before Mordor
Steuard Jensen
the Black Gate is truly terrible:
"Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
My first thought was that it was the remains of some sort of chemical
warfare (and other nasty things) during the War of the Last Alliance.
That sounds like a reasonable answer, and it may be true, but that
doesn't seem entirely consistent with the phrase "the dark labour of
its slaves". In fact, that phrase makes it sound almost like the
horrifying ruin of the land there was explicitly created as an eternal
"monument" to Sauron. I could also imagine that there was actual
mining of resources done there, though I'm pretty dubious of that
idea.
Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
Steuard Jensen
Raven
news:NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu...
> The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
[...]
> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
My own impression is simply that the evil "aura" of Sauron strangled
living things and beauty in much the same way that the habitation of Elves
made other places more beautiful. The Plain of Gorgoroth is no better than
the lands near the Morannon, though its ugliness is different. The lands
immediately before the Black Gate had at the time been under Sauron's
control for a long time, and his thoughts had presumably brooded more there
than on many other areas of his realm, since it was the place where enemy
armies would be most likely to invade, and the place where the bulk of his
own armies would issue forth.
It is described how the land of Ithilien had not been corrupted, since it
had not been under Sauron's control for very long - implying that if
Ithilien had remained under Sauron's control, it would sooner or later have
decayed too.
Of course, the valley of Morgai was somewhat closer to Barad-dūr than the
Morannon and the lands beyond, and the valley of Morgai was less corrupted.
There were actually living things there, and a little running water. But
the brooding thought of Sauron would probably have been less frequent and
heavy on that area.
Voron.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
> "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
> rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
> muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
> filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
> crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
> poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
> slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
>
> What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
what
originally the coal ash and other waste product
of the englush industrial revolution in the up till then pristine countryside
you could explain it as mine tailing and other excavation debris
from the burrowings in udun
tailings often have toxic ores that have been concentrated
but not concentrated enough to be extracted
and other toxic chemicals ued in extraction
other debris from the work in udun
why
california water supply is endangered by arsenic and acid
slowly working its way out of the sierra nevada into the central valley
and in other places hillside of eroded away
because of the gold rush and the miners desire for gold
and their nonconcern about what it was doing to the environment
the desolation could be explained by saurons nonconcern
for irrelevant and unprofitable enterprises as forests and green plains
just like any laissez faire capitialist
AC
I had always assumed that the desolation before the Gates of Mordor was
psychological warfare. An army marching on the Morannon would certainly
tremble at the sight of this terrible place. The loathing, awe and fear
that the wasteland would have inspired would certainly be to Sauron's
benefit.
It's likely that the devestation may have been initiated during the Last
Alliance, but one can certainly see Sauron ordering it maintained and
enlarged. As we see by the horrors of the Morgul Vale (which I always found
the creepiest part in the entire book, and among the most disquieting of all
Tolkien's writings), Sauron seemed to guard major entrances into his land by
such means.
--
Aaron Clausen
Een wilde Ier
mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote:
>In article <NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu>,
>sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
>> The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
>> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>>
>> "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
>> rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
>> muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
>> filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
>> crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
>> poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
>> slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
>>
>> What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
>
>what
>originally the coal ash and other waste product
>of the englush industrial revolution in the up till then pristine countryside
>
>you could explain it as mine tailing and other excavation debris
>from the burrowings in udun
>tailings often have toxic ores that have been concentrated
>but not concentrated enough to be extracted
>and other toxic chemicals ued in extraction
>
>other debris from the work in udun
I agree with Coyote's explanation, given Tolkien's recorded opinions
on industry.
It sounds uncannily like a description of poisonous residue resulting
from mining operations.
cheers,
David
--
Journalist: Where in Northern Ireland will the two leaders meet?
Ari Fleischer: Dublin.
Press Briefing with Ari Fleischer,
George W. Bush's chief spokesman
April 4, 2003
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
wrote in message:
> sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>
> > The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
> > the Black Gate is truly terrible:
> >
> > "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
> > rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
> > muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
> > filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
> > crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
> > poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
> > slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
> >
> > What caused that horrible desolation, and why?
> what
> originally the coal ash and other waste product
> of the englush industrial revolution in the up till then pristine
countryside
>
> you could explain it as mine tailing and other excavation debris
> from the burrowings in udun
> tailings often have toxic ores that have been concentrated
> but not concentrated enough to be extracted
> and other toxic chemicals ued in extraction
I agree. Having seen (and smelled) the sulphurous residue of northern mining
town operations. The area around those towns as far as the horizon looks
much like I imagine Mordor to look. No trees or grass - just bare rock,
tailings and slag heaps.
--
Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Ph.D.
Proud supporter of the GSPD (Gondorean Society for the Protection of the
Drúedain)
Buy your hexagonal centimeter of Drúadan Forest today!
TchWrtrMcf
slave worked fields away south, feeding the armies of mordor (or was that
Saruman's armies) ?
Considering that Sauron's first aim was apparently to bring order to middle
earth, yet the barrow wights chortled of the day that he could lift his hand
"over dead heath and withered land" could his hatred and anger have soured over
the eons to simply a desire to end all life?
Graham Lockwood
{snip actual content}
> --
> Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Ph.D.
> Proud supporter of the GSPD (Gondorean Society for the Protection of the
> Drúedain)
> Buy your hexagonal centimeter of Drúadan Forest today!
How much are these selling for?
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
|// And do they come |/
|/ with mineral and |
| timber rights? /|
Conrad Dunkerson
> I could also imagine that there was actual mining of resources done
> there, though I'm pretty dubious of that idea.
Hmmmm? What about the slag hills on which the forces of Gondor
arrayed themselves for the last stand? I'd say those were pretty much
conclusive evidence of mining / metalworking refuse having been dumped
in the area. Which could include all kinds of chemicals and very much
fit the description given. I suspect most of the mining / metal work
actually went on elsewhere, but Sauron's 'industrial waste' dumping
ground couldn't have been pretty.
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
> sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu>...
>
>
>>I could also imagine that there was actual mining of resources done
>>there, though I'm pretty dubious of that idea.
>
>
> Hmmmm? What about the slag hills on which the forces of Gondor
> arrayed themselves for the last stand? I'd say those were pretty much
> conclusive evidence of mining / metalworking refuse having been dumped
There's a difference between mining and metalworking. I think this
stuff is industrial pollution. "the dark labour of
its slaves" seems to refer to industrial-type pollution coming from work
related waste.
Slag comes from refining ore. Not from mining it.
> in the area. Which could include all kinds of chemicals and very much
> fit the description given. I suspect most of the mining / metal work
> actually went on elsewhere, but Sauron's 'industrial waste' dumping
> ground couldn't have been pretty.
Evil people dump waste right beside where they generate it. Beside the
factories, foundries etc.
Hasan
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
message:
> Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld said:
> {snip actual content}
> > --
> > Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Ph.D.
> > Proud supporter of the GSPD (Gondorean Society for the Protection of the
> > Drúedain)
> > Buy your hexagonal centimeter of Drúadan Forest today!
>
> How much are these selling for?
Well, I bought mine with my last tonne of CHOKLIT, after a nice lellow
dwagin relieved me of the rest of it. All proceeds go to this worthy cause,
minus a 99.9% agency fee, so they encourage you to be as generous as
possible.
> |// And do they come |/
> |/ with mineral and |
> | timber rights? /|
Hmm, mineral and timber rites? You'll have to ask the Drúedain themselves
about that. I am not familiar with any of their rituals, though I'm sure it
is a beautiful and mystical culture.
--
Ernst Stav -- aw, skip it. See above.
Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
message:
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
<pins>
> Slag comes from refining ore. Not from mining it.
>
> > in the area. Which could include all kinds of chemicals and very much
> > fit the description given. I suspect most of the mining / metal work
> > actually went on elsewhere, but Sauron's 'industrial waste' dumping
> > ground couldn't have been pretty.
>
> Evil people dump waste right beside where they generate it. Beside the
> factories, foundries etc.
Can you imagine the health problems suffered by the slaves of Mordor? If
they weren't all destroyed, the workers' compensation claims would have
dragged on until the Twelfth Age!
g.skinner
> >
> > > in the area. Which could include all kinds of chemicals and very much
> > > fit the description given. I suspect most of the mining / metal work
> > > actually went on elsewhere, but Sauron's 'industrial waste' dumping
> > > ground couldn't have been pretty.
> >
> > Evil people dump waste right beside where they generate it. Beside the
> > factories, foundries etc.
>
> Can you imagine the health problems suffered by the slaves of Mordor? If
> they weren't all destroyed, the workers' compensation claims would have
> dragged on until the Twelfth Age!
I'm sure if Sauron had survived to the Twelfth age he'd have put Sauron Inc.
into receivership and become chairman of Sauron and Co. Ltd. with no legal
responsibility to the previous regime the workers' comp claim would be
worthless. Unless they could make a claim against Sauron himself and I sure
wouldn't want to be the guy that served the papers on him.
Graeme
Conrad Dunkerson
> Slag comes from refining ore. Not from mining it.
Yes, but you can't refine ore you do not have. You GET the ore by...
mining. I mentioned metalworking (of which refining is a component /
pre-requisite) in addition to the mining which HAD been under
discussion precisely because 'slag' is not generated during the mining
process. However, the industries are all inter-related and capable of
contributing to the kind of 'poisoned landscape' described.
> Evil people dump waste right beside where they generate it. Beside the
> factories, foundries etc.
Yet that does not seem to be the case here. There were no 'factories'
or other industry mentioned in the area... it wouldn't make much sense
to build them OUTSIDE of Mordor. Further, we know that Sauron DID
have such things at Barad-dur and Amon Amarth. As such I think the
implication is that the slag and other waste was produced within
Mordor and dumped outside.
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) wrote:
> Hasdrubal Hamilcar <syed_hasa...@rogers.com-nospam> wrote in
message
news:<pFhOa.72644$a51....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
>
> > Slag comes from refining ore. Not from mining it.
>
> Yes, but you can't refine ore you do not have. You GET the ore by...
> mining. I mentioned metalworking (of which refining is a component /
> pre-requisite) in addition to the mining which HAD been under
udun was mined
whether for ore or just to make defnsive works
Chocoholic
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu...
I agree with the other posters to this thread. It's simply industrial waste.
Now that corporations are so sensitive to 'public opinion' (they might be
forced to clean up their own mess if people see it!) they go to a lot of
trouble to disguise or remove their waste to some remote location. But you
used to be able to see big toxic wastelands around mines, factories, etc.
This sounds like what Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote that passage.
The American
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu...
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
>
>
I agree with what others have posted before me about mining refuse but I'd
like to add the addition of Time.
Sauron had most of the 2nd age to dump this waste from the building of
Barad-dur to the fortifying of Mordor before the Last Alliance.
Who knows how large these "monuments" might have been originally only to
have been weathered down over the centuries during the 3rd Age.
It was at the time of the LA that the Brown Lands were created/destroyed,
correct?
How?
How was that done in so short a geological time?
Were the Dead Marshes always there or did it grow in size over time and
overtake the burial area of those that fell in battle?
T.A.
The American
"The American" <a_real_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vglu4n9...@corp.supernews.com...
I forgot to add: Are these geological problem areas related somehow?
T.A.
johnj
news:NN%Na.82$Y4.2...@news.uchicago.edu...
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
> it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
> slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
> that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
>
> My first thought was that it was the remains of some sort of chemical
> warfare (and other nasty things) during the War of the Last Alliance.
> That sounds like a reasonable answer, and it may be true, but that
> doesn't seem entirely consistent with the phrase "the dark labour of
> its slaves". In fact, that phrase makes it sound almost like the
> horrifying ruin of the land there was explicitly created as an eternal
> "monument" to Sauron. I could also imagine that there was actual
> mining of resources done there, though I'm pretty dubious of that
> idea.
>
> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
>
part of the world). I have always thought that this description - and that
of the post-Sharkey Shire - were based on Tolkien's move from the village of
Sarehole to Central Birmingham after the death of his mother, around 100
years ago. At the time, Sarehole was an isolated agricultural village, and
Ladywood, where the Oratory is, was the scene of heavy industry (there was a
factory building steam engines very close to it).
Spoil heaps were very common in Birmingham and the Black Country (which was
not called that for nothing) although they have mostly been removed
nowadays; but there were still quite a few not so long ago.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard Jensen
>What caused that horrible desolation, and why?
As others have posted, "industrial waste" seems like a logical
explanation to me. It wouldn't have to be heavy industry. For
instance, even paper-making creates a lot of acid runoff, IIRC.
(That's just an illustration; I don't think Sauron was churning out
reams of 24 lb bond.)
What _I_ have always wondered about is the flies that Frodo and Sam
saw, marked with the Red Eye. How did Sauron do it? Selective
breeding, I guess, or do you think it was some sort of enchantment?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
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Dr. Ernst Stavro Blofeld
> What _I_ have always wondered about is the flies that Frodo and Sam
> saw, marked with the Red Eye. How did Sauron do it? Selective
> breeding, I guess, or do you think it was some sort of enchantment?
I propose it was selective breeding, but not on a conscious level. The
spiders and birds in and around Mordor, learning to fear the Red Eye, avoid
anything that reminds them of it. Flies with a Red Eye mark live, those
without it are eaten.
g.skinner
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
> "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
> rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
> muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
> filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
> crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
> poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
> slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
>
> What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
> it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
> slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
> that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
>
It's possible that it was the run off from Mordor's toilets <don't look at
me like that, they had to go somewhere!> I'm sure that it would still be
"the lasting monument to the dark labour of its slaves".
Ok, I agree its probably mine/industrial waste. But what was the toilet
situation in Mordor?
Graeme
Michael Cole
> It's possible that it was the run off from Mordor's toilets <don't
> look at me like that, they had to go somewhere!> I'm sure that it
> would still be "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its
> slaves". Ok, I agree its probably mine/industrial waste. But what was
> the toilet situation in Mordor?
Toilets? Why do you think that the Orcs were always grumpy and walked with
bow-legs? Severe constipation...
--
Regards,
Michael Cole
Jens Kilian
> Ok, I agree its probably mine/industrial waste. But what was the toilet
> situation in Mordor?
"Ugluk u bagronk" says it all...
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Conrad Dunkerson
> It was at the time of the LA that the Brown Lands were created/destroyed,
> correct?
> How?
> How was that done in so short a geological time?
"I think that the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed
with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age
3492-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned
their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (Vol II
p79 refers to it)[1]. They survived only in the 'agriculture'
transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east,
or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an
economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal
workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from
the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult -- unless
experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them
a little more anarchic, I hope so. I don't know.
[1] ... all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted; Men call them the
Brown Lands now."
Letters #144
> Were the Dead Marshes always there or did it grow in size over time and
> overtake the burial area of those that fell in battle?
The Dead Marshes expanded into Dagorlad during the Third Age and
engulfed some of the graves from the battle of the Last Alliance
there.
Robert J. Kolker
g.skinner wrote:
> Ok, I agree its probably mine/industrial waste. But what was the toilet
> situation in Mordor?
Shitty.
Bob Kolker
TitaniumWulf
> Shitty.
Oh my word, what a crap pun...
Wyatt
Öjevind Lång
> The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
> the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
> "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
> rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
> muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
> filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
> crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
> poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
> slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
>
> What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
> it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
> slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
> that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
[snip]
> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his mind
when he wrote those words.
Öjevind
Robert J. Kolker
Öjevind Lång wrote:
> Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
> because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his mind
> when he wrote those words.
Is commercial and industrial development the Marring of Arda?
Bob Kolker
put-the-no-mail-...@mail.ru
rivers (Techa) or cyanide into lakes (Kirgizia) - sounds like Morgoth is
giggling mad, doesn't it?
Archie
--
"I have told my sons that they are not under any
circumstances to take part in massacres, and that
the news of massacres of enemies is not to fill them
with satisfaction or glee."
Kurt Vonnegut, _Slaughterhouse-Five_
AC
That might be part of it, though when Tolkien spoke of Arda Marred he was
referring to Arda after Melkor/Morgoth had imbued his own native power into
the very substance of Arda.
--
Aaron Clausen
the softrat
<ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
>
>Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
>because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his mind
>when he wrote those words.
>
>Öjevind
>
Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape in
France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Keep this up and we'll have a vicious triangle.
Öjevind Lång
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:05:03 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
> <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
> >
> >Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
> >because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his
mind
> >when he wrote those words.
> >
> >Öjevind
> >
> Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape in
> France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
I have no doubt that played a role too, particularly in the description of
the Dead Marshes.
Öjevind
Matthew Bladen
news:2H0Pa.1064$NU5...@nntpserver.swip.net...
> "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
> > Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape in
> > France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
>
> I have no doubt that played a role too, particularly in the description of
> the Dead Marshes.
Cambridge! ;)
--
Matthew
John DiFool
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>The description (in "The Passage of the Marshes") of the lands before
>the Black Gate is truly terrible:
>
> "Here nothing lived, not even the leprous growths that feed on
> rottenness. The gaspoing pools were choked with ash and crawling
> muds, sickly white and grey, as if the mountains had vomited the
> filth of their entrails upon the lands about. High mounds of
> crushed and powdered rock, great cones of earth fire-blasted and
> poison-stained, stood like an obscene graveyard in endless rows,
> slowly revealed in the reluctant light."
>
>What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
>it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
>slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
>that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
>
You're asking the wrong question. I want to know how they can
feed thousands upon thousands of orcs when there aren't any
croplands in Mordor. Captured enemies (both soldiers and
innocent civilians) would only sustain them so long. Perhaps
the Mordorians have trade with the Eastern peoples?
John DiFool
Bill O'Meally
"John DiFool" <so...@spammerscrewedme.com> wrote in message
news:svepgvs3jbdi5u6c5...@4ax.com...
> You're asking the wrong question. I want to know how they can
> feed thousands upon thousands of orcs when there aren't any
> croplands in Mordor. Captured enemies (both soldiers and
> innocent civilians) would only sustain them so long. Perhaps
> the Mordorians have trade with the Eastern peoples?
There *are* croplands in Mordor, in Nurn. Not so on the Plateau of
Gorgoroth, where the action in LotR takes place.
--
Bill
"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
the softrat
Maynard Keynes! ;)
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"All misinformation is true .... from a certain point of view"
-- the Jedi Handbook
the softrat
<so...@spammerscrewedme.com> wrote:
>
>You're asking the wrong question. I want to know how they can
>feed thousands upon thousands of orcs when there aren't any
>croplands in Mordor. Captured enemies (both soldiers and
>innocent civilians) would only sustain them so long. Perhaps
>the Mordorians have trade with the Eastern peoples?
>
See the appendices to the LotR.
AC
There are croplands around the Sea of Nurnen.
--
Aaron Clausen
D.G. Porter
Without Arda Marred there would be no Children of Illuvatar, nor any
viable ecosystem.
First the Valar create their paradise on the island of Almaren.
Apparently there are no carnivorous predators in Middle Earth (until
Melkor creates them out of existing herbivores), so eventually the
existing herbivores will eat all of Arda's foliage until it's all gone
and breed out of control. The Elves won't awaken until the last of
the stars are created, which wouldn't have happened if Almaren
persisted, and Men won't awaken until the Sun rises, which wouldn't
have happened until the Two Trees died, so if Melkor hadn't destroyed
the Two Lamps and poisoned the Two Trees there wouldn't be any
Children of Illuvatar. Without Melkor's acts it would have been just
the Valar. Maybe Melkor listened to the Music of the Ainur more than
most thought.
And now the High Elves dwell in Valinor, where everything is nice and
sweet and never decays, and they'll be there for bazillions of years
to come. Apparently they'll never tire of their lives there, so they
don't have to bother creating anything new. They could have stayed in
Middle Earth, but then they'd haveto keep re-creating. And bazillions
of years from their departure they'll still be living in the past and
he "glory" of the Second Age at best. One million years from their
arrival they'll still be doing the same old same-old. Couldn't they
have done that in Middle Earth? Maybe or maybe not.
And what of the Avari? Living in trailer parks with huts on concrete
blocks?
Seems that Arda doesn't work without decay.
Eric Root
Michael Cole wrote:
Nah, they always just went in their pants, which may have been the greatest
of Morgoth's crimes.
-Eric Root
Robert J. Kolker
Eric Root wrote:
> Nah, they always just went in their pants, which may have been the greatest
> of Morgoth's crimes.
>
What pants?
Bob Kolker
Roger Clewley
> > What caused that horrible desolation, and why? The chapter says that
> > it was "the lasting monument to the dark labour of its [Mordor's]
> > slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void", but
> > that sounds more like a "who" than a "why".
>
> [snip]
>
> > Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
>
> Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
> because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his mind
> when he wrote those words.
>
> Öjevind
Wasn't there a drafting note or letter that speaks to his intent here. Stuck in
the back of my memory, is that he makes a reference to pollution (chemical
plants?) influencing his description in this section of LotR or my memory could
just be totally wrong..........
Jette Goldie
"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:9nipgv03mr0f66ler...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:15:05 +0000 (UTC), "Matthew Bladen"
> <trib...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
> >news:2H0Pa.1064$NU5...@nntpserver.swip.net...
> >> "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> > Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape
in
> >> > France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
> >>
> >> I have no doubt that played a role too, particularly in the description
of
> >> the Dead Marshes.
> >
> >Cambridge! ;)
>
> Maynard Keynes! ;)
Don't you mean Milton Keynes?
:-)
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Chocoholic
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:05:03 +0200, "Öjevind Lång"
> <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Does anyone have thoughts on which explanation is most likely?
> >
> >Industrialization, which Tolkien hated. Don't ask me for particulars,
> >because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his
mind
> >when he wrote those words.
> >
> >Öjevind
> >
> Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape in
> France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
>
>
That would more properly be the description of the.plain around Orodruin.
The 'craters' scattered all over, apparently from volcanic bombardment,
could also be the shell pockmarks all over the French countryside in WW I.
the softrat
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>"the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>news:9nipgv03mr0f66ler...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:15:05 +0000 (UTC), "Matthew Bladen"
>> <trib...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
>> >news:2H0Pa.1064$NU5...@nntpserver.swip.net...
>> >> "the softrat" <sof...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> > Hoom! I always understood that Tolkien was describing the landscape
>in
>> >> > France where the Battle of the Somme (WWI) was fought.
>> >>
>> >> I have no doubt that played a role too, particularly in the description
>of
>> >> the Dead Marshes.
>> >
>> >Cambridge! ;)
>>
>> Maynard Keynes! ;)
>
>
>Don't you mean Milton Keynes?
>
>:-)
Milton Stsandish!
-:)
the softrat ==> Careful!
I have a hug and I know how to use it!
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"I don't want to tell you any half-truths unless they are
completely accurate." -- Dennis Rappaport, boxing manager
Graham Lockwood
>> I agree with what others have posted before me about mining refuse but I'd
>> like to add the addition of Time.
>> Sauron had most of the 2nd age to dump this waste from the building of
>> Barad-dur to the fortifying of Mordor before the Last Alliance.
>> Who knows how large these "monuments" might have been originally only to
>> have been weathered down over the centuries during the 3rd Age.
{snip}
> I forgot to add: Are these geological problem areas related somehow?
In fact, it was just the opposite of what you've described. The mounds
*grew* rather than shrank over the course of time. If the statement in LotR
that they were built up by the labor of Sauron's minions isn't enough, in UT
there is a tale of a Gondorian army battling wainriders before the Morranon.
It even states that the hills that the Gondorians made their last stand was
likely the very same hills that Aragorn et al made *their* last stand in the
War of the Ring. However, it notes that the hills were significantly
*smaller* at that time than they were by the end of the Third Age.
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
Stan Brown
>Wasn't there a drafting note or letter that speaks to his intent here. Stuck in
>the back of my memory, is that he makes a reference to pollution (chemical
>plants?) influencing his description in this section of LotR or my memory could
>just be totally wrong..........
From letter 226, written on the last day of 1960:
"The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something
to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme."
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Roger Clewley
> In article <3F0F1F40...@telus.net> in rec.arts.books.tolkien,
> Roger Clewley <rogerc...@telus.net> wrote:
> >Wasn't there a drafting note or letter that speaks to his intent here. Stuck in
> >the back of my memory, is that he makes a reference to pollution (chemical
> >plants?) influencing his description in this section of LotR or my memory could
> >just be totally wrong..........
>
> From letter 226, written on the last day of 1960:
>
> "The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something
> to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme."
Thanks for this. I finally found the text of which I could only vaguely remember:
It comes from a drafting note for the chapter "Passage of the Marshes" printed in
HoME VIII, p. 105:
Speaking of the mires on the approach to Mordor. " Describe the pools as they get
nearer to Mordor as like green pools and rivers fouled by modern chemical works."
So evoking the taint of modern industrial pollution, but not saying the corruption of
the land was due to industrial pollution. though I suppose we are free to speculate
what things Sauron was having done that would produce the same results as that of
20th century chemical industry.
RC
Robert J. Kolker
Roger Clewley wrote:
> So evoking the taint of modern industrial pollution, but not saying the corruption of
> the land was due to industrial pollution. though I suppose we are free to speculate
> what things Sauron was having done that would produce the same results as that of
> 20th century chemical industry.
Industrial pollution was explicit in the section of LOTR - The Cleansing
of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play
than hardware and throw weight.
Bob Kolker
Een wilde Ier
And none now, where death comes from a safe distance at the flick of a
switch.
David
--
Journalist: Where in Northern Ireland will the two leaders meet?
Ari Fleischer: Dublin.
Press Briefing with Ari Fleischer,
George W. Bush's chief spokesman
April 4, 2003
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 13:40:34 GMT, "Robert J. Kolker"
> And none now, where death comes from a safe distance at the flick of a
> switch.
>
The idea is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard
die for his --- George Patton.
Anyone who wants to close with the enemy when it is possible to
-obliterate- him at a safe distance is a coo coo nut. I would trade all
the valor in the world for a working GPS system to guide in the JDAMS.
Bob Kolker
Andrew Wells
news:mjdQa.51804$N7.5514@sccrnsc03...
> Industrial pollution was explicit in the section of LOTR - The Cleansing
> of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
> a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
> first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play than
> hardware and throw weight.
American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
Robert J. Kolker
Andrew Wells wrote:
>
> American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
Neither of these were world wide or major wars. They were regional wars.
Furthermore the casualties in the Great War were unprecedented. It made
the Crimean War a picnic by comparison. Even the Boer War claimed
relatively few casualties from the Brits. The Great War was grand
guignal slaughter of unbelievable magnitude. That is way everyone
believed it was the War to End All Wars. No one could conceive of
anything as bad as the Great War.
Bob Kolker
Een wilde Ier
Which lies at the emergence of "terrorism" as the only viable method
of resistance by a conquered and/or oppressed population.
The technological hill has become far too steep for most to climb to
take on the soldiers of the average would-be industrialised conqueror
these days. (Even guerilla warfare is nowadays unviable, given the
advancements in electronic surveillance)
For example, even two hundred years ago a civilian population (in this
case that of Ireland in the 1798 rebellion) could produce a mass
uprising and field a force which could take on equivalently-sized
regular British Army formations of the time with good chances of
military success - a rebel and a redcoat were simply two men competing
on roughly level terms.
Such an option for armed rebellion, so essential to removing unjust
autocratic masters in the past, is no longer possible today in most
parts of the world. This disproportionality is, IMHO, something
entirely new in human history and a worrying development in giving
unprecedented advantage to unaccountable and oppressive elites.
Just a thought ;-)
Een wilde Ier
<nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:mjdQa.51804$N7.5514@sccrnsc03...
>> Industrial pollution was explicit in the section of LOTR - The Cleansing
>> of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
>> a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
>> first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play than
>> hardware and throw weight.
>
>American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
Even with machine-guns and quick-firing artillery, it was still
line-of-sight, face to face - man against man.
WWI introduced the aeroplane, the submarine and the tank, where
mechanisation allowed a level of emotional detachment and 'efficiency'
to actually killing other men not heretofore seen in warfare - as
ever, IMHO ;-)
cheers,
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<nos...@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote:
> "Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:mjdQa.51804$N7.5514@sccrnsc03...
> > Industrial pollution was explicit in the section of LOTR - The Cleansing
> > of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
> > a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
> > first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play than
> > hardware and throw weight.
>
> American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
the only valor and honor in a pike square
were lies recruiters sold young men
to let themselves be chopped up like a barnyard chicken
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> take on the soldiers of the average would-be industrialised conqueror
> these days. (Even guerilla warfare is nowadays unviable, given the
> advancements in electronic surveillance)
in the letters ti cjrt jrrt was sad his son was in the raf
he was really upset about the mechanization of warfare
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
> Which lies at the emergence of "terrorism" as the only viable method
> of resistance by a conquered and/or oppressed population.
No problem. All we have to do is nuke all the terrorists. Of course,
this means genocide which is considered politically incorrect these
days. Personally I have no problem with it, but I don't make the
decisions either.
Dead guys don't fly planes into skyscrapers. So lets make dead guys out
of would be Moslem terrorists.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
> WWI introduced the aeroplane, the submarine and the tank, where
> mechanisation allowed a level of emotional detachment and 'efficiency'
> to actually killing other men not heretofore seen in warfare - as
> ever, IMHO ;-)
What made the Great War so bloody was that Allied generals (members of
the upper crust or royalty) saw no problem in using up the troops
(mostly proletariat) in idiotic frontal assaults. That is why the
butcher's bill was so high in the Great War.
Bob Kolker
Een wilde Ier
<bobk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
>>
>> Which lies at the emergence of "terrorism" as the only viable method
>> of resistance by a conquered and/or oppressed population.
>
>No problem. All we have to do is nuke all the terrorists. Of course,
>this means genocide which is considered politically incorrect these
>days.
"We gotta kill all them before they kill us"
Oh, for the advancements brought by several million years of human
evolution, and it still boils down to *this* level of reasoning.
Robert J. Kolker
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> in the letters ti cjrt jrrt was sad his son was in the raf
> he was really upset about the mechanization of warfare
The only way someone like Bomber Harris (one of my heroes, by the way)
to exist in Middle Earth is for him to be an Orc or to be Saruman.
I loved Bomber Harris and Curtiss LeMay. LeMay said the only difference
between peace and war is where we place our bombs.
Bob Kolker
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<tr...@no1.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:16:41 GMT, "Robert J. Kolker"
> <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Een wilde Ier wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Which lies at the emergence of "terrorism" as the only viable method
> >> of resistance by a conquered and/or oppressed population.
> >
> >No problem. All we have to do is nuke all the terrorists. Of course,
> >this means genocide which is considered politically incorrect these
> >days.
>
> "We gotta kill all them before they kill us"
>
> Oh, for the advancements brought by several million years of human
> evolution, and it still boils down to *this* level of reasoning.
in case you hadnt guessed yet
hes the baron josef of rabt
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
> Oh, for the advancements brought by several million years of human
> evolution, and it still boils down to *this* level of reasoning.
Evolution does not care nor does it take prisoners. The only thing that
matters is who reproduces successfuly. Dead guys don't reproduce.
I will bet that you think there is a Point to Existence and a Goal for
our lives. Wrong and wrong. The Kosmos is mostly dead or inanimate and
in the long run all the stars will burn out.
That is my spiritually uplifting message for the day.
Bob Kolker
Graham Lockwood
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:36:12 +0100, "Andrew Wells"
>>> of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
>>> a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
>>> first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play than
>>> hardware and throw weight.
>> American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
>
> Even with machine-guns and quick-firing artillery, it was still
> line-of-sight, face to face - man against man.
>
> WWI introduced the aeroplane, the submarine and the tank, where
> mechanisation allowed a level of emotional detachment and 'efficiency'
> to actually killing other men not heretofore seen in warfare - as
> ever, IMHO ;-)
Nevertheless, there are still people on the ground with guns going head to
head against other people with guns. And as long as that is the case, there
will always be a place for "valor and honor" on the battlefield. Or, at
least as much as there ever was.
||// // "The narrative ends here. || //
|// // There is no reason to think ||//
(/ // that any more was ever written. |//
||// The manuscript, which becomes //
|// increasingly rapid towards the end, //|
(/ peters out in a scrawl." //||
|| -Christopher Tolkien, _The Lost Road_ // ||
|// ObTolkien: Am I the only |/
|/ one who keeps wanting to |
| spell "valor" as "valar"? /|
Een wilde Ier
<bobk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh, for the advancements brought by several million years of human
>> evolution, and it still boils down to *this* level of reasoning.
>
>Evolution does not care nor does it take prisoners. The only thing that
>matters is who reproduces successfuly. Dead guys don't reproduce.
>
>I will bet that you think there is a Point to Existence and a Goal for
>our lives. Wrong and wrong. The Kosmos is mostly dead or inanimate and
>in the long run all the stars will burn out.
It doesn't matter, one way or another (though I happen to have Faith
myself).
There are still the notions of "Right" and "Wrong", on which values
society depends in order to function.
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
>
> There are still the notions of "Right" and "Wrong", on which values
> society depends in order to function.
There is Right/Wrong and there is Power/NoPower. Guess which one matters
more. I think Neitzche was onto something.
Bob Kolker
Taemon
> Oh, for the advancements brought by several million years of human
> evolution, and it still boils down to *this* level of reasoning.
Several million? Not by far. Homo sapiens sapiens is about 100.000 years
old, other homini go farther back. But several million years ago we were
'just' apes. By the way, evolution has nothing to do with advancements.
Greetings, T.
Een wilde Ier
Lol. Mea culpa, on the "several million" ;-)
as for the evolution, I was referring to civilisation/human society,
not just the 'biological thing'.
cheers,
Een wilde Ier
<GondhirAtC*H*O*K*L*I*TDo...@IgnoreThis.AndThis> wrote:
>Een wilde Ier said:
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:36:12 +0100, "Andrew Wells"
>>> "Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> Industrial pollution was explicit in the section of LOTR - The Cleansing
>>>> of the Shire. JRRT was a high class Catholic gentleman, but he was also
>>>> a luddite. Not that I blame him. WWI in which he fought was the world's
>>>> first major -industrial- war. Valor and honor had less a part to play than
>>>> hardware and throw weight.
>>> American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
>>
>> Even with machine-guns and quick-firing artillery, it was still
>> line-of-sight, face to face - man against man.
>>
>> WWI introduced the aeroplane, the submarine and the tank, where
>> mechanisation allowed a level of emotional detachment and 'efficiency'
>> to actually killing other men not heretofore seen in warfare - as
>> ever, IMHO ;-)
>
>Nevertheless, there are still people on the ground with guns going head to
>head against other people with guns.
Increasingly, this is no longer the case. Infantry can no longer
compete with the latest technological toys - in GWII, for example,
allied infantry seem to have seen little action, apart from isolated
attacks by groups of Iraqi infiltrators.
In Gaza and the West Bank, it's gunmen against tanks, jets and
helicopters - no contest.
>And as long as that is the case, there
>will always be a place for "valor and honor" on the battlefield. Or, at
>least as much as there ever was
And yet there was, to a surprising degree, usually a 'mutual
understanding' between the ordinary soldiers on both sides of informal
rules of war. With the trivialisation of killing someone on a modern
battlefield, that's gone.
Een wilde Ier
No - even a cursory stroll through human history reveals what Tolkien
woud call Grace - the ability of humans to rise above such devilish
equations.
Een wilde Ier
<bobk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
>> in the letters ti cjrt jrrt was sad his son was in the raf
>> he was really upset about the mechanization of warfare
>
>The only way someone like Bomber Harris (one of my heroes, by the way)
>to exist in Middle Earth is for him to be an Orc or to be Saruman.
Tellingly enough.
Een wilde Ier
I can't *wait* for Russ to get back...
Een wilde Ier
Not always, by a long shot.
There is a rogue element in human history because we're human beings
with Free Will, which includes the choice to behave (irrationally to
the Saurons and Sarumans of this world) in a wholly selfless manner
for the benefit of all.
Hasdrubal Hamilcar
>
> Dead guys don't fly planes into skyscrapers. So lets make dead guys out
> of would be Moslem terrorists.
Before anyone laughs, since attacking people who have not committed a
crime yet is injustice, the above is the American strategy in some ways.
I have yet to see anyone explain how they will stop these attacks
from repeating in the future though, for anyone with a spare plane can
ram it into the worlds next trade center also. The next terrorists
might be from the US (hillbillies) and provide the pretext for whatever
war the world next dominant superpower wants. Not to mention the
reparations from the US govt for not doing enough to stop violence etc.
Hasan
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
didnt they recently push the divergence back to about four million years
Robert J. Kolker
Hasdrubal Hamilcar wrote:
> Robert J. Kolker wrote:
>
>>
>
>> Dead guys don't fly planes into skyscrapers. So lets make dead guys
>> out of would be Moslem terrorists.
>
>
>
> Before anyone laughs, since attacking people who have not committed a
> crime yet is injustice, the above is the American strategy in some ways.
We learned it from the Brits. Bomber Harris who sent his lads out to
blow women and children to bloody gobbets helped to save Britain from
the Hun.
It is also How the West was Won. We killed injuns and their food supply,
then we stole their land -- fair and square.
Bob Kolker
Robert J. Kolker
Een wilde Ier wrote:
> There is a rogue element in human history because we're human beings
> with Free Will, which includes the choice to behave (irrationally to
> the Saurons and Sarumans of this world) in a wholly selfless manner
> for the benefit of all.
>
Yup. The Good Guys win for 15 minutes while evil re-organizes itself.
Bob Kolker
Jette Goldie
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MHiQa.53085$ye4.39792@sccrnsc01...
At least this way the Good Guys win - any other way and the Good
Guys cease to exist because they become the Bad Guys.
15 minutes at a time - that's how the war is won.
--
Jette
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
"I don't care WHO started it - STOP IT NOW!!"
Taemon
> Taemon:
> > By the way, evolution has nothing to do with advancements.
> as for the evolution, I was referring to civilisation/human society,
> not just the 'biological thing'.
"Just"? Human society _is_ a 'biological thing'.
Greetings, T.
Een wilde Ier
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:MHiQa.53085$ye4.39792@sccrnsc01...
>>
>>
>> Een wilde Ier wrote:
>>
>> > There is a rogue element in human history because we're human beings
>> > with Free Will, which includes the choice to behave (irrationally to
>> > the Saurons and Sarumans of this world) in a wholly selfless manner
>> > for the benefit of all.
>> >
>>
>> Yup. The Good Guys win for 15 minutes while evil re-organizes itself.
>
>
>At least this way the Good Guys win - any other way and the Good
>Guys cease to exist because they become the Bad Guys.
>
>15 minutes at a time - that's how the war is won.
Like those (stupidly) courageous and principled individuals who keep
putting their careers and personal liberty on the line to get out the
truth behind Blair's lies.
What's the feeling in the UK at the moment about the No. 10 control
freaks and their attempts to teach the Beeb a few 'manners', Jette?
Who's going to win this round?
cheers,
Een wilde Ier
Not so, at least not since the development of literacy, or going even
further back, 'proper' speech. IMHO, as always ;-)
Linards Ticmanis
> [...] As we see by the horrors of the Morgul Vale (which I always found
> the creepiest part in the entire book, and among the most disquieting of all
> Tolkien's writings),
Actually I find most of Book Four pretty trip-like, except for the
Ithilien part maybe (but that sounds like a pleasant sort of trip
sometimes ;-). The Mordor chapters of Book Six sound much saner and
more realistic (however you define that), even though they take place
within Mordor itself.
Chocoholic
"Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:bes683$8dc2i$1...@ID-135975.news.uni-berlin.de...
Yep... Ordinary people take the little pictures in the high school textbooks
too literally. The sequence from lemur to monkey to ape to human (and then
through various shades of imagined 'semi humans') is just drawn for
convenience of the audience. A simplification for the purpose of
explanation. It was never envisioned as a straight line of 'advance' towards
some coherent goal. Evolution as the scientists think of it is simply the
tendency for living things to be shaped by their environment. That's why it
takes so many milions of years of 'random' changes to get anywhere.
BaronjosefR
><<<<<
Sure it does. Are you trying to suggest that Neanderthals could have devised
Gummi Bears?
coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
cultures evolve by a different mechanism than organisms
if you want to count culuture as life
its a very different kind of life
Jette Goldie
"Een wilde Ier" <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message
news:erq3hvgbab38s8a3r...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:07:23 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:MHiQa.53085$ye4.39792@sccrnsc01...
> >>
> >>
> >> Een wilde Ier wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a rogue element in human history because we're human beings
> >> > with Free Will, which includes the choice to behave (irrationally to
> >> > the Saurons and Sarumans of this world) in a wholly selfless manner
> >> > for the benefit of all.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yup. The Good Guys win for 15 minutes while evil re-organizes itself.
> >
> >
> >At least this way the Good Guys win - any other way and the Good
> >Guys cease to exist because they become the Bad Guys.
> >
> >15 minutes at a time - that's how the war is won.
>
> Like those (stupidly) courageous and principled individuals who keep
> putting their careers and personal liberty on the line to get out the
> truth behind Blair's lies.
>
> What's the feeling in the UK at the moment about the No. 10 control
> freaks and their attempts to teach the Beeb a few 'manners', Jette?
>
> Who's going to win this round?
Everyone I know is behind the BBC.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Andrew Wells
> Andrew Wells wrote:
>>
>> American civil war? Russo-Japanese war?
>
> wars.
<snips>
I disagree, at least about the American Civil War. By looking at the number
of people involved, or number of casualties, it was a major war.
I suspect we're getting off-topic, though, so I propose to leave it there.
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
Jette Goldie on location
> By the way, evolution has nothing to do with advancements.
> ><<<<<
>
>
> Sure it does. Are you trying to suggest that Neanderthals could have devised
> Gummi Bears?
Neanderthals were certainly more advanced in that respect - they
had (on the whole) excellent teeth and a diet that helped them
keep them that way.
Taemon
> >> Taemon:
> >> Een wilde Ier:
> >> > By the way, evolution has nothing to do with advancements.
> >> as for the evolution, I was referring to civilisation/human society,
> >> not just the 'biological thing'.
> >"Just"? Human society _is_ a 'biological thing'.
> Not so, at least not since the development of literacy, or going even
> further back, 'proper' speech. IMHO, as always ;-)
And proper speech has nothing to do with biology? :-) Society means being
more the animal we are instead of less. It is a means to secure
reproduction. So is civilisation, eventually.
Greetings, T.
Mike
> > because Tolkien gave none, but I think this is probably what wa sin his mind
> > when he wrote those words.
> Is commercial and industrial development the Marring of Arda?
I don't believe so, Tolkein appears to see no problem with the
cultural and maritime greatness of Numenor, the vast commercial and
industrial wealth of the Dwarves or the technical creativity of the
Noldor.
Moreover, Tolkein stated that LOTR was not an allegory, when he was
asked about its relationship to the narrative of the rise of thirties
fascism. To argue that the Marring of Arda corresponds directly with
industrialisation would involve reading his mythos as an allegory and
thus ignoring his distaste for that literary form.
That is not to say that Tolkein's myth may not be read as a critique
of certain types of commercial or industrial activity. One of the
recurring motifs in his stories are characters such as Melkor, Saruman
and the Numenoreans; characters who begin with greater power and
creativity than their peers. Having become enamoured with their own
glory they succomb to the arrogance and the temptation to seek to
dominate those around them with the net effect that they squander the
very power and creativity that made them great in the first place.
Hence, although Tolkein had no real problem with commerce, wealth and
industry, he makes a distinction between the true creativity at the
heart of 'free' industry and 'free' commerce, and the destructive,
albeit hugely powerful, mimickry at the heart of industry and commerce
designed to dominate.
> Bob Kolker
Cheers
Mike
Mike
Mike
Een wilde Ier
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
>"Een wilde Ier" <tr...@no1.com> wrote in message
>news:erq3hvgbab38s8a3r...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 20:07:23 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
>> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> >15 minutes at a time - that's how the war is won.
>>
>> Like those (stupidly) courageous and principled individuals who keep
>> putting their careers and personal liberty on the line to get out the
>> truth behind Blair's lies.
>>
>> What's the feeling in the UK at the moment about the No. 10 control
>> freaks and their attempts to teach the Beeb a few 'manners', Jette?
>>
>> Who's going to win this round?
>
>
>Everyone I know is behind the BBC.
Popcorn at the ready... Blair is certainly looking wounded these days
and under strain.
And it certainly cannot help that the Indians - good for them! - have
refused a US request to put their own soldiers into that quagmire to
replace American GI's in the firing-line.
(IIRC, they cited the absence of any UN mandate, but said they would
be more than happy to help towards rebuilding infrastructure)
cheers,
D.
Een wilde Ier
>Een wilde Ier:
>
>> >> Taemon:
>> >> Een wilde Ier:
>> >> > By the way, evolution has nothing to do with advancements.
>> >> as for the evolution, I was referring to civilisation/human society,
>> >> not just the 'biological thing'.
>> >"Just"? Human society _is_ a 'biological thing'.
>> Not so, at least not since the development of literacy, or going even
>> further back, 'proper' speech. IMHO, as always ;-)
>
>And proper speech has nothing to do with biology? :-)
"Speech" is a human invention, which has to be taught to infants.
Otherwise, we're back to grunts and screams ;-)
> Society means being
>more the animal we are instead of less.
Actually, it's the other way around. There seems to be a human urge to
evolve socially.
> It is a means to secure
>reproduction.
Society? Society places restraints upon reproduction.
>So is civilisation, eventually.
How so?
Een wilde Ier
on location) wrote:
Don't believe everything the softrat says!
Troels Forchhammer
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:15:45 +0200, "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> "Speech" is a human invention, which has to be taught to infants.
> Otherwise, we're back to grunts and screams ;-)
IIRC there's examples of twins (identical?) who have
developed a language of their own ...
The development of a rudimentary language would seem
inevitable.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail address is t.forch(a)mail.dk
Troels Forchhammer
>
> That is not to say that Tolkein's myth may not be read as a critique
> of certain types of commercial or industrial activity.
I'd perhaps put it a bit differently, but essentially agree.
Tolkien himself had a problem with industralisation and
especially the 'machines', and that attitude did, IMO,
influence LotR.
The more primitive rural and sylvan ways of life are
presented as the more happy (Elves and Hobbits in particular)
while even the Dúnedain of Gondor's cities while obviously
nobler than the Hobbits are also presented as less happy,
IMO (more carefree).
At the same time the attitudes of Sauron and Saruman towards
the nature that surrounds them is presented in terms that
are reminiscent of the least responsible among the great
industrialists of Tolkien's age.
Öjevind Lång
Öjevind
Jette Goldie
"Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message
news:9qRQa.1643$NU5...@nntpserver.swip.net...
> "Jette Goldie on location" - did they shoot you there?
>
<g> Nah, that's just the Google account I use to read the
newsgroup at work, or when I'm away from home.